Kawakami, Braves Blow Big Lead, Still Win 8-5
by Jacob Peterson on Jun 20, 2010 6:03 PM EDT
in Braves Game Recaps
Email
PrintThis game couldn't have started much better, as Kenshin Kawakami had a 1-2-3 inning in the top of the first, and the Braves rocked Kyle Davies for 4 runs in the bottom half. Chipper Jones and Omar infante each had 2-RBI doubles in that inning.
Unfortunately, Kawakami apparently couldn't stand the prosperity of 4 whole runs, because he immediately fell apart. On the first play of the top of the second, he booted a grounder to allow Jose Guillen to reach. He then gave up singles to that noted murderer's row of Alberto Callaspo, Brayan Pena, and Chris Getz. The latter two drove in runs, cutting the Royals' deficit in half.
In the top of the third, the Royals' offense picked up right where it left off, getting back-to-back-to-back singles from Mike Aviles, Billy Butler, and Jose Guillen. Guillen's single drove in the third run of the game and knocked out Kawakami. Bobby Cox brought on Christhian Martinez, who promptly allowed both baserunners to score, putting the Braves behind 5-4.
I don't have confirmation on this, but I suspect that either Kawakami's foot blister or back problems returned. He clearly wasn't right after the first inning. Regardless of whether he was hurt, it was sad to see him blow such a golden opportunity for his first win. KK's final line was depressing: 2 IP, 6 H, 5 R (4 ER), 0 BB, 1 K, 7 line drives out of 11 balls in play, and a -0.277 WPA.
Royals' starter Kyle Davies was not any better. He struggled with his control throughout, walking 7 Braves batters. Unfortunately, the Braves couldn't get any of those runners home after the first inning. They left 2 runners on in both the 2nd and 3rd. In the 5th, Davies walked 2 of the first 3 batters, prompting Ned Yost to replace him. Victor Marte came on and walked another man but got Brooks Conrad to fly out with the bases loaded to end the inning. Davies' final line was 4.1 IP, 4 H, 4 R, 7 BB, 6 K, and a -0.229 WPA.
After that, it was a battle of the bullpens. Martinez settled down after his rough first inning, retiring the last 6 men he faced. Eric O'Flaherty and Peter Moylan worked scoreless innings in the 6th and 7th, respectively. Craig Kimbrel worked around a bases-loaded, none-out jam created by his own wildness (an error and two walks) to somehow record a scoreless 8th.
The Braves tied it on a Chipper Jones double off of Kyle Farnsworth in the 6th. Then, in the bottom of the 8th, they put together an epic 2-out rally off of Blake Wood. After Jason Heyward grounded into a double play to clear the bases, Chipper Jones and Troy Glaus both walked. Eric Hinske doubled both of them in. Finally, Melky Cabrera singled in Hinske, giving the Braves a comfortable 8-5 lead.
Billy Wagner struck out 2 in a scoreless 9th to record his 398th career save. Kimbrel got his second major-league win despite his shaky inning.
The Braves are now 2.5 games up on the Mets, who were shut out by the Yankees today. The Phillies dropped to 5.5 games back after losing to the Twins. The sweep of the Royals is the Braves' 4th in their past 5 home series (they have won 14 of 15 at home). In other words, pretty much all of the news is good news for Braves fans. What a great way to reward all of the Braves' dads (and the rest of us, too)!
Awards
MVP
Chipper-- 2/3, 2 2B, 2 R, 3 RBI, 2 BB, SB, and a masterful 0.418 WPA (What a stat line that is. He's looked as good as ever since the retirement talk broke out... Coincidence?)
Honorable Mention
Hinske-- 2/5, 2B, 2 RBI, 2 K, 0.213 WPA
The Braves' bullpen-- 7 IP, 5 H, 0 R, 3 BB, 7 K, and a combined 0.264 WPA
Troy Glaus-- 0/1, 4 BB, 2 R, and a 0.093 WPA
Omar Infante (in his return to the lineup)-- 2/5, 2B, 2 RBI, K, and a 0.079 WPA
LVP
Blake Wood-- 1 IP, 3 H, 3 R, 2 BB, 0 K, and a -0.373 WPA
MVP in a Losing Effort
Chris Getz-- 2/4, 2B, 2 RBI, K, 0.277 WPA
Clutch Plays
Hinske's 2-run double to break the 5-5 tie in the 8th (0.359 WPA)
Chipper's two doubles; driving in 2 in the first (0.152 WPA) and 1 in the sixth (0.194 WPA)
Unclutch Plays
The three outs made by the Royals in the 8th inning after loading the bases with none out were all pretty unclutch:
Mike Aviles striking out with 1 out (-0.145 WPA), Billy Butler popping up to short with 2 out (-0.137), and David DeJesus striking out with no outs (-0.111)
157 comments
|
0 recs |
Do you like this story?
Comments
I love this team.
"Sharks have a week dedicated to Jason Heyward."
by Scott Coleman on Jun 20, 2010 6:04 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
I'm glad Chipper is coming around
Seems like he’s having fun out there and enjoying playing a lot.
"Tony Gwynn made sacrifices. Cal Ripken made sacrifices. I'm not sure Derek Jeter made sacrifices given the ungodly deep pockets the Yankees have." - Chipper Jones
by MBL1 on Jun 20, 2010 6:07 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
Great Win
After winning two against the Royals and having the off-day on Monday…I was afraid of a let down…Not this team…Great fight…My player of the game is Kimbrel…Yes, he got himself into trouble, but what poise to get himself out of trouble…Like they said on the radio, he’s grooming himself nicely to be a Wagner-like closer!
Oh…And it seems Chipper really is having second thoughts about retiring ;-)
They call Kimbrel a right handed Wagner
"Tony Gwynn made sacrifices. Cal Ripken made sacrifices. I'm not sure Derek Jeter made sacrifices given the ungodly deep pockets the Yankees have." - Chipper Jones
by MBL1 on Jun 20, 2010 6:09 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
They call Wagner a same-handed Heyward
Morton hit Heyward with an offspeed pitch. Early indication is that the baseball survived the impact.
They call
I don't know shit about baseball.
by oVecKid on Jun 20, 2010 9:18 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
They call me...
The mobile fail king.
I don't know shit about baseball.
by oVecKid on Jun 20, 2010 9:19 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Wagner has a career 3.02 BB/9
Kimbrel has a 10.8 BB/9. His control problems come from the minors. If he can’t keep the wildness out of his repertoire, he’ll never be half of what Wagner has been.
by Alvaro Andres Pizza Varela on Jun 21, 2010 12:15 PM EDT up reply actions
He doesn't quite have the zip of Wags
But I really like Venters right now. That sinker is sweeet
Morton hit Heyward with an offspeed pitch. Early indication is that the baseball survived the impact.
You know, at least this team bailed out KK when he actually sucked today.
I’m also wondering if there something wrong with KK because for Bobby that was an extremely quick hook, especially since the pitcher only gave up two runs (even if the dude is getting smacked around Bobby generally leaves a guy in until he gives up about 4).
Oh well. Now this probably means that he will go to the bullpen, which makes me worry about Medlen’s arm.
by DogDaysofSummer on Jun 20, 2010 6:09 PM EDT reply actions
He only gave up 2 at the time of leaving.
by DogDaysofSummer on Jun 20, 2010 6:11 PM EDT up reply actions
No wait, 3.
You know what, you assholes know what im talking about so just roll with it.
by DogDaysofSummer on Jun 20, 2010 6:13 PM EDT up reply actions
He had given up 3 and on his way to more than 5 if he had continued in the game
And the unearned run was because of his own error. So it should be credited to him anyway
by Alvaro Andres Pizza Varela on Jun 21, 2010 12:17 PM EDT up reply actions
Alternate theory
With offday tommorow, bobby knew he could use his entire bullpen and get away with it
by DogDaysofSummer on Jun 20, 2010 6:12 PM EDT up reply actions
Bobby after the game...
Said that it was the first time since KK has been with the team that he simply didn’t have any stuff…He didn’t mention any type of injury…
Thats what I mean with the alternate theory.
Like if it was on the 11 game roadtrip KK was getting shelled, Bobby’s hands would kinda be tied because he couldnt afford to blow the bullpen out on something like this.
by DogDaysofSummer on Jun 20, 2010 6:16 PM EDT up reply actions
Also...
Going into an AL park, there’s really no strategy re: pitchers because of the DH…Thus, you can leave guys in from inning to inning without fooling with pinch hitters…Given that and the off-day, as you said, he probably felt he could throw everyone out to the mound…Same reason with Wagner pitching for the 4th consecutive game…
As an aside, honestly, this was the first time that I recall Martinez having this much of a role in a close game, so good for him…
Hopefully, the Braves will win every game in Chicago 10-0 and we won’t have to worry about the bullpen as much!
Thanks for reporting that.
It is possible that it’s the sort of nagging injury that wouldn’t really be publicized, but I guess he just didn’t have it tonight. Hopefully he does better next time.
"Yeah, and I have an enchanted jock strap." -- Karl Karlson
by Jacob Peterson on Jun 20, 2010 10:50 PM EDT up reply actions
If Kawakami pitches well, he is a “fantastic” pitcher. If he pitches badly then he is injured.
You shouldn’t report your own speculations in the recaps. If you know from a credible source he was hurt, then it should be posted.
Kawakami was bad yesterday (as he usually is) and Bobby had had enough of him. Fortunately Martinez didn’t fall apart to give the game away.
by Alvaro Andres Pizza Varela on Jun 21, 2010 12:23 PM EDT up reply actions
I agree
lazy journalism all around
We have traded away great players for less than nothing and let Texierra walk away, and much much more so pray that Hayward is sent from God and that his energy can ignite the veterans and cause the younger players to hustle more and play winning baseball...
Kawakami was bad yesterday (as he usually is)
Wrong. In 14 starts, Kawakami has six quality starts, and has nine starts where he has given up 3 ER or less. That’s not elite, but certainly not bad, nor is he “usually bad.”
I don’t evaluate pitchers with QS and ERA.
by Alvaro Andres Pizza Varela on Jun 22, 2010 1:00 AM EDT up reply actions
Judging by that 54 inch waist
I’m thinking David West.
by Sam Jethroe on Jun 21, 2010 12:54 AM EDT up reply actions
I wouldn't wish Phillie on anyone.
Senator, we have another old saying,"Don't piss down my back and tell me it's raining." Fletcher
That picture must have been taken
Shortly after KK came from the bank.
It’s the only time he should have this type of shit-eating grin on his face.
Kawakami is not absolute shit, but he isn’t any good either.
by Nova Scotia Steve on Jun 20, 2010 7:08 PM EDT up reply actions
What an ugly, but gritty win
I’ve been patient and understanding with KK. I’ve even backed him, but he looked awful after that beautiful top of the 1st. I hate it for him, but that second inning, and beginning of the third, was all on him. If he honestly was dealing with a back or blister issue, I hope they get it remedied quickly.
I’m just glad the offense kept playing…like they have all year. And what a performance by the pen. Even Martinez, after he got over his early stuggles in the third. What about that run of 42 consecutive wins for the Braves after they score 5 or more?
AL pitching can’t seem to retire Chipper, so why should Father Time be any different? ;-)
I believe there ought to be a constitutional amendment outlawing Astroturf and the designated hitter. ~ Crash Davis
by Old Braves' Fan on Jun 20, 2010 6:14 PM EDT reply actions
Gotta Give The Royals Their Due
None of these games were an easy win. The Royals are a bit better than some think. Let’s face it, we actually could have lost any of these games against the Royals. I love close games and we have had a few of those I believe. Look at our DL and we still are doing well. GO BRAVES!!!! I am very happy I bought season tix this year again.
Senator, we have another old saying,"Don't piss down my back and tell me it's raining." Fletcher
The Royals have the bats, but not the arms with the exception of Greinke and Soria.
And in the farm they got Kila Ka’iuhihe (who should be in the majors), Alex Gordon (ditto), Mike Moustakas and Eric Hosmer. That team can mash and will mash.
The question is: Will Dayton Moore stop signing and trading for so many mediocre players like Kendall, Betancourt, Podsednik, Ankiel, Guillen and every Braves castoff?
by Alvaro Andres Pizza Varela on Jun 21, 2010 12:30 PM EDT up reply actions
My thoughts exactly jimmontg
This Royals series was probably one of the most enjoyable ones I’ve watched as of this year. I expected otherwise. Just goes to prove that you can’t take any MLB team for granted.
A baseball diamond is, most simply, the intersecting of four 90-foot baselines, and, most powerfully, the intersecting of seemingly random lives.
Seriously?
He pitched like crap today, but do you really have to say you hate him? That’s a bit harsh
"Tony Gwynn made sacrifices. Cal Ripken made sacrifices. I'm not sure Derek Jeter made sacrifices given the ungodly deep pockets the Yankees have." - Chipper Jones
by MBL1 on Jun 20, 2010 7:05 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
:O SHAME ON YOU!!!!!
"Tony Gwynn made sacrifices. Cal Ripken made sacrifices. I'm not sure Derek Jeter made sacrifices given the ungodly deep pockets the Yankees have." - Chipper Jones
by MBL1 on Jun 20, 2010 7:11 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
You are so out of line.
Flagged.
"It breaks your heart. It is designed to break your heart. The game begins in the spring, when everything else begins again, and it blossoms in the summer, filling the afternoons and evenings, and then as soon as the chill rains come, it stops and leaves you to face the fall alone." A. Bartlett Giamatti
I'm Just Glad This Kawakami Debate Will Be Over
In T-5 days…
Kawakami is not absolute shit, but he isn’t any good either.
by Nova Scotia Steve on Jun 20, 2010 7:09 PM EDT up reply actions
LOL
Good point!
Kawakami is not absolute shit, but he isn’t any good either.
by Nova Scotia Steve on Jun 20, 2010 7:11 PM EDT up reply actions
grrr…teixeira…grrr!
"Sometimes I think it is a great mistake to have matter that can think and feel. It complains so. By the same token, though, I suppose that boulders and mountains and moons could be accused of being a little too phlegmatic."
-Kurt Vonnegut, "The Sirens of Titan"
by Bravely going forward on Jun 20, 2010 7:25 PM EDT up reply actions
OGT
tired of hearing him/her complain about KK
I believe there ought to be a constitutional amendment outlawing Astroturf and the designated hitter. ~ Crash Davis
by Old Braves' Fan on Jun 20, 2010 7:19 PM EDT up reply actions
I don’t understand how you, or any actual Braves fan for that matter, could say that. So he had a rough day. Did you forget that he completely shut down the Diamondbacks just a couple starts ago? He’s had some bad starts; he’s had some good ones. But more importantly, he is a good team guy. He doesn’t make excuses. He’s not like a Garret Anderson who doesn’t care. He doesn’t blame other players (i.e. when the collision in the outfield likely cost him a win). He goes out there and does his job, and if he pitches well, he doesn’t complain about not getting a win. If he pitches poorly he takes the blame. And now he’s saying he’s ready for whatever happens to him when JJ returns. You may not like how he pitched today, but he’s still a Brave, and deserves our support.
"Chase Utley can't polish Martin's shoes right now" Joe Simpson
by sleezer1788 on Jun 20, 2010 7:19 PM EDT up reply actions 6 recs
well said
"Sometimes I think it is a great mistake to have matter that can think and feel. It complains so. By the same token, though, I suppose that boulders and mountains and moons could be accused of being a little too phlegmatic."
-Kurt Vonnegut, "The Sirens of Titan"
by Bravely going forward on Jun 20, 2010 7:21 PM EDT up reply actions
Logic won’t work on HalleyGator. He/she is always on KK’s case. Don’t feed the Troll…
I believe there ought to be a constitutional amendment outlawing Astroturf and the designated hitter. ~ Crash Davis
by Old Braves' Fan on Jun 20, 2010 7:22 PM EDT up reply actions
I’m not really trying to feed the troll. It wasn’t really meant to be just toward this poster. I just figured there would be a lot of similar posts in the near future, and I just wanted to put my two cents in.
"Chase Utley can't polish Martin's shoes right now" Joe Simpson
Understand
and I agree with all the points you made. I certainly wasn’t disagreeing with you, but sort of making a general statement for all the other KK haterz/trolls, too.
I believe there ought to be a constitutional amendment outlawing Astroturf and the designated hitter. ~ Crash Davis
by Old Braves' Fan on Jun 20, 2010 7:28 PM EDT up reply actions
all true except for the fact that you have absolutely no basis for saying Garret Anderson didn’t care…i think its a lot more likely that he just isnt very good anymore than it is that he isnt trying to do his best.
Heyward,Hanson,and Shaffer r ready now!! Why do you think they havent signed the "right handed bat"?
by fatazfoot on Jan 7, 2009 8:59 PM EST
I guess I just didn’t get the sense that he cared much. Maybe because he said that baseball was just a job to him and he didn’t seem like he was having much fun. But what do I know? Maybe he was having the time of his life and just didn’t show it.
"Chase Utley can't polish Martin's shoes right now" Joe Simpson
there are lots of players who don’t look like they are having fun and they still care very much. ANd realistically it is a job for these guys…but again that doesnt mean he doesnt care about how well he does. It’s not really far to comment on his feelings and emotions considering we have no clue what’s going through his head. What is fair game is his horrid play, bc he was bad, really bad…but there’s no evidence he didnt care.
Heyward,Hanson,and Shaffer r ready now!! Why do you think they havent signed the "right handed bat"?
by fatazfoot on Jan 7, 2009 8:59 PM EST
Did he shutdown the Dbacks? What I saw was a pitcher who was constantly in trouble and escaping.
2nd inning: Stranded a runner on second (double) with 1 out
3rd inning: Stranded runners on second and third (single and double) with 1 out
4th inning: Stranded a runner on second (double) with 1 out
6th inning: Strander runners on first and second (two walks) with 1 out.
Kawakami’s strand rate is 65%. Did he pitch good? Yes. Did he pitch great? No.
by Alvaro Andres Pizza Varela on Jun 21, 2010 12:41 PM EDT up reply actions
Did KK peepee in your cheerios?
Morton hit Heyward with an offspeed pitch. Early indication is that the baseball survived the impact.
No, I just think Medlen is better now and can improve (he is young). Kawakami is worse than Medlen and could decline (he is old), so, do the math.
by Alvaro Andres Pizza Varela on Jun 22, 2010 1:01 AM EDT up reply actions
at this rate
KK might be able to break the MLB record for No-Decisions in a season…
Just as long as he doesn’t lose any more games
The future is the present. Jason Heyward has arrived.
I'm thankful I missed KK's pitching
sounds like it was rough to watch. After having lunch with my Dad and all the family, it was in the 7th when I turned it on.
I got to see some great hustle and great BP pitching. I loved seeing Kimbrel get out of that bases loaded no out situation.
I love this team, and their never give up attitude.
Chipper: "It has never been about money for me, and it never will be about money. It has always been about winning, comfort and playing for Bobby Cox."
Good timing!
Came in just in time to see the Bravos turn it on and bring home the sweep. KK looked fantastic in the first, so maybe there is some credence to the injury speculation. Who knows?
I believe there ought to be a constitutional amendment outlawing Astroturf and the designated hitter. ~ Crash Davis
by Old Braves' Fan on Jun 20, 2010 7:21 PM EDT up reply actions
I don't hate any player
I look down and have no respect for some of the cheaters and players that slide into my catcher with spikes up. I am sorry for KK and wish him well even if he gets sent to the BP. I have no reason to disrespect him, let alone hate him. I have to admit I really despise the Yankees though.
Senator, we have another old saying,"Don't piss down my back and tell me it's raining." Fletcher
well he has had a limp for awhile if you have really paid attention. i think its just a nagging thing and he’ll be fine.
by AvoidTheDolphin on Jun 20, 2010 7:47 PM EDT up reply actions
This game was great. Chipper did good, we were clutch when we had to be, and the bullpen was just awesome. The best thing for our club i think is JJ back in the rotation and KK in bullpen but thats just because all our pitchers i think rank as 1-3 type pitchers where as KK is 4-5, which is what we knew when we signed him so no hate on him.
by AvoidTheDolphin on Jun 20, 2010 7:46 PM EDT reply actions
EXTREMELY IMPORTANT BREAKING NEWS
Spotlight: Brian McCann is coming on at 8:00 ET.
Tee hee.
I picked the wrong day to quit sniffing Matt Cain.
Wait, I've just been handed another wire bulletin
Apparently, it’s 9:00 Eastern, 8:00 Central. Please stay tuned for further details.
I picked the wrong day to quit sniffing Matt Cain.
East of the Alabama/Georgia border is Eastern. West of the border, it’s Central.
I picked the wrong day to quit sniffing Matt Cain.
Yes I know! But I know not where I am!
(Sorry, I’m in a frustrating situation on supposed vacation and trying to make fun out of nothing…didn’t mean for you to take me seriously :D)
I'm amazed
At how many people are defending Kawakami, but if it was Derek Lowe it would be a completely different story. Somewhat amusing but not really.
Anyways, its time to face it – the guy is not pitching good this season and doesn’t deserve to be a starter. Sooner or later he’s really going to hurt us. Putting him in the bullpen is a temporary solution because Medlen really should have his innings pitched limited in order to not damage his arm.
he is pitching just fine for a 5th starter…he is producing positive value and earning his contract. a sub 5 ERA from a 5th starter is pretty good. he’s no where near as good as our other starters…but that doesnt mean he’s pitching bad. Same thing goes for Lowe, except we are paying him more than twice as much as KK and basically getting the same results.
Heyward,Hanson,and Shaffer r ready now!! Why do you think they havent signed the "right handed bat"?
by fatazfoot on Jan 7, 2009 8:59 PM EST
by Swo12bv on Jun 20, 2010 7:58 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
maybe pitching fine for a 5th starter on an average team
But not on a serious title contender, which is where I’d like to think these braves are. If you are really prepared to see KK pitch in an NLCS or the WS, all power to you, but it gives me a feeling of dread.
KK would be a 3rd starter on an average team. title contenders have had worse 5th starters, and lots of “title contending” teams this year have question marks for their fifth starters.
also, 5th starters hardly ever pitch in playoff games.
2009 Yankees: Combination of Chien-Ming Wang, Phil Hughes, Sergie Mitre, and Chad Gaudin. KK has a lower FIP than all of those.
2009 Phillies: Hard to even say who their fifth starter was because their rotation was in constant flux. KK is better than Brett Meyers, Jamie Moyer, and Antonio Bastardo.
2008 Phillies: KK has a lower FIP than Kyle Kendrick, Joe Blanton, and Adam Eaton from that team, making him better than their fourth starter.
2008 Rays: Edwin Jackson had approximately the same FIP as KK right now (actually, KK’s is lower, but I’ll give Edwin benefit of the doubt for being in the AL). So KK could have been the 5th starter on that team.
2007 Red Sox: They seriously had Julian Taveraz as a 5th starter. Advantage: KK
2007: Harder to judge, because of the Coors Field effect, but I think he was still easily better than Jason Hirsch and Josh Fogg. He’s almost a full run better in FIP than those two.
So there you go, KK is as good or better than the 5th starter for each of the WS teams from the past 3 years. Proof that championship caliber teams do have guys that “bad” in the rotation.
you never go full retard
Heyward,Hanson,and Shaffer r ready now!! Why do you think they havent signed the "right handed bat"?
by fatazfoot on Jan 7, 2009 8:59 PM EST
disagree...
sometimes it’s necessary.
"It breaks your heart. It is designed to break your heart. The game begins in the spring, when everything else begins again, and it blossoms in the summer, filling the afternoons and evenings, and then as soon as the chill rains come, it stops and leaves you to face the fall alone." A. Bartlett Giamatti
Really?
And Lowe was signed to be an ace. He was paid to be an ace. Kawakami is being paid $7.5 mil to be a 5th starter.
You can’t criticize one without talking about the other. They’re both under performing, but apparently everyone will ignore/excuse Kenshin while hating on Derek. That – to me – is just plain stupid.
KK was paid 6.67M this year. Same for next year and thats a pretty good price for his services…Its rare you get excess value out of a FA contract…and we will be gettin performance in excess of what we are paying him so thats a good thing.
and no one is excuing KK’s performance, we just have lower expectations of what he willl bring to the table..he is pitching exactly in line with what he did last year. Since last year was his first year MLB that was the baseline for expectations. Derek Lowe had posted 4 straight sub 4 ERAs (and 3 straight sub 4 FIPs, if you prefer that metric which I do), before coming to ATL…since arriving his ERA has been above 4.6 and his FIP has been above 4. This means he isn’t meeting expectations and thus will get more grief for his less than stellar performance.
Its not that complicated. You don’t get grief if you meet expectations…you do get grief if you fail to meet expectations. everyone is expected to do different things.
Heyward,Hanson,and Shaffer r ready now!! Why do you think they havent signed the "right handed bat"?
by fatazfoot on Jan 7, 2009 8:59 PM EST
The debate is not how much is Kawakami being paid. It’s who is better between Kawakami and Medlen.
Medlen is better.
by Alvaro Andres Pizza Varela on Jun 21, 2010 1:00 PM EDT up reply actions
That's not right either...
it’s what makes the TEAM better. Is it having KK as the 5th starter (possibly skipped when we have off days) with Medlen in the bullpen able to work in multiple spots from long relief to late innings? Or is it better to keep Medlen in the 5th spot and have KK work long relief (I can’t see him cracking the 7th/8th if the rest of our bullpen is healthy with Moylan, Saito, EOF, and Venters).
The Braves bullpen is great enough without Medlen, unless Bobby Cox keeps insisting in putting Jesse Chavez and Christian Martinez in key situations.
The rotation besides Hanson is average. Hudson still is having a lucky year (though he is improving), Kawakami is mediocre, Jurjens is coming back from an injury and who knows what Lowe brings to the table in any start; he can be as good as he pitched in his last start against Philly or he could be as bad as he pitched in Phoenix.
by Alvaro Andres Pizza Varela on Jun 22, 2010 1:06 AM EDT up reply actions
no the debate has nothing to do with Medlen…this conversation started by SAG969 involves the criticism of KK and Lowe…no one mentioned Medlen
other parts of the thread are dealing with that but not this particular section…and there’s no reason to tell me Medlen is better than KK i know he is better, but thats obvious to pretty much everyone with eyes and a basic knowledge of what makes a pitcher good.
Heyward,Hanson,and Shaffer r ready now!! Why do you think they havent signed the "right handed bat"?
by fatazfoot on Jan 7, 2009 8:59 PM EST
I don’t like either. But It’s not their fault the money they are receiving. Wren was desperate to get pitching and he overpaid for both. At the moment it was necessary, but when the kids down in the farm are ready, both should be removed from the rotation if they keep pitching this mediocre.
by Alvaro Andres Pizza Varela on Jun 22, 2010 1:13 AM EDT up reply actions
you have no clue how to attack an argument do you…its like you are aiming at a target and then completely missing. Its kinda humorous.
1. I don’t care who you like and don’t like
2. I never blamed either player for making money. If someone offered me $15M to throw baseballs I would take it. So I can’t really blame anyone else for taking it.
3. Based on reading the slew of comments you have posted, with a elitist belief that you are right, despite no evidence to prove your points, I really don’t care about what you have to say.
Heyward,Hanson,and Shaffer r ready now!! Why do you think they havent signed the "right handed bat"?
by fatazfoot on Jan 7, 2009 8:59 PM EST
Great win
Great seeing Chipper hitting again. Now if he keeps this up, do you really see him retiring? KK looked awful. I hope KK was fighting an injury today (as bad as that sound)because I really thought he was going to win today. Hopefully, he can get whatever his hurting him fixed and makes a record look better, even though he has pitched good this year
I think his performance is going to play as big an impact as anything on his decision to retire
If he can back to something like .275/.400/.425, it’s not an excellent season by Chipper standards, but it’s still probably one of the 8 best seasons from a third baseman this season, and much better than we could hope to get to replace him in 2011. That should give him impetus to stay around for at least another season, if we have a solid playoff run this year.
Then again, part of me thinks that 2011 might not turn as well for us, so perhaps it’s best if he does retire and isn’t forced to hang on for another failed playoff run. As much as part of me would love to see him linger around to get to some milestones, like 500 HR and to pass Garry Sheffield in career hits, it might be best if this is his last season.
I still think he can and will be productive for the rest of the year, though.
Go Braves Go
JJ > KK = WS
"It looks like The Hound of the Baskervilles out there." - Steve Stone
"...I'm reminded of Wuthering Heights." - Harry Caray
~
I see a troll under that bridge!
by Chief Noc-A-Homa on Jun 20, 2010 8:30 PM EDT reply actions
Talking about the World Series in June.
lol
by DogDaysofSummer on Jun 20, 2010 8:36 PM EDT up reply actions
I'M WORRIED ABOUT OUR PLAYOFF ROTATION AHHHHH!!!!!
/sarcasm
Go USA, Braves, BU Terriers, Irish, Caps, Colts, Hoyas, NU Cats, Wizards, DC United, Washington Freedom
BU Hockey: National Champions 1971, 1972, 1978, 1995, 2009
Legit
I’ve thought about that once or twice and that is the exact same order that I kept coming up with. I like the way that matches up. And I think Lowe could be a darkhorse playoff guy, I could see him stepping it up a big game. That said, I don’t want to jinx anything so let’s just make the playoffs haha
What game
does Heyward pitch?
"Jason Heyward was a Greek philosopher reincarnated as a baseball player." - Don Sutton
I started watching with two outs in the 8th...
Just sayin’
Go USA, Braves, BU Terriers, Irish, Caps, Colts, Hoyas, NU Cats, Wizards, DC United, Washington Freedom
BU Hockey: National Champions 1971, 1972, 1978, 1995, 2009
anyone still think kawakrappy should still be in the rotation after JJ's return?
and enough about this “saving Medlen’s arm for next year” crap. I think its pretty safe to say that the Braves are legitimate contenders for the World Series THIS year, so why not have your best players out there to have the best chance of winning it all? Last time i checked that was in fact the goal of every team this year, except for the Pirates of course.
Because
Of the Verducci effect. Basically, Tom Verducci has figured out that if a pitcher throws 30 more innings than he did the previous year, the next year he will be really subpar and are very highly likely to get injured.
Here is his original post about this: here. But you can search for it online and find out all kinds of things about it. Its really pretty damning.
Question about Verducci Effect....
Does it take into account IP for Minor League Innings? do those matter?
by Braves Biceps on Jun 20, 2010 10:53 PM EDT up reply actions
yeah im pretty sure those are taken into account
also it is only for pitchers under 24 or 25 IIRC., which medlen is. having medlen bolster the BP > KK in the BP and have Medlens arm fall off next year.
our rotation will be fine with KK.. we can win games. once we get to the playoffs KK wont even be pitching.
by MacsGlasses on Jun 20, 2010 10:59 PM EDT up reply actions
agreed completely. Medlen has almost completely matched his inning count from last year
by Braves Biceps on Jun 20, 2010 11:32 PM EDT up reply actions
Of course, we shouldn’t be looking at his innings total from last year, since the premise is that his conditioning hasn’t gotten him in place. His inning totals last year were suppressed by being used in the bullpen, but in 2008, he threw 120 innings in the minors. In spite of the decline in innings last year, we shouldn’t assume his conditioning has fallen off. He should be capable of =~ 150 innings, were it necessary.
The Verducci effect is an arbitrary standard
It can’t be take seriously until someone shows enough proof that young starters are getting injured because they increase their innings 30 + from one year to another.
Why not 40 +? Why not 20 +? How did he establish the 30 inning limit? Where did he establish the 25 or younger? Why not 24? Why not 23? Why not 26?
The day somebody makes a scientific and reliable study, I’ll believe it, not just pure speculation.
by Alvaro Andres Pizza Varela on Jun 21, 2010 12:56 PM EDT up reply actions
FWIW
Mazzone and Glavine both feel that at this point in Medlen’s career (no quote as they were made on the Braves pre-game the other day), removing him from the rotation could be a detriment to his progress as a starter going forward. Leo, in his opinion, felt that KK is more equipped to be a valuable spot-start long-relief pitcher…These comments were made a day or two before yesterday’s game.
While these individuals are not the end-all, be-all of opinion makers, their opinions are valuable (at least to me). They did not include stats as to why they feel this particular way; however, they (or at least Leo) has had success with these types of situations in the past…I trust his opinion is based off of more than emotion.
I personally think we need KK in the bullpen…I am not saying that he’s trash or that I hate him, I just notice that when KK starts, we are 3-10 (either going into yesterday’s game or including yesterday’s game)…Yes, he has terrible run support but those 10 losses are more 1/3 of our ENTIRE team loss total for the year…
At this point, it could all be mental for KK…When he gets a ton of runs, he has pressure to finally win; when he doesn’t, the offense is pressured to score runs…Either way, one side of our team is pressured…With Medlen, this is not the case…
I don’t know about innings/over-pitching (I personally think all of this pitch count, pamper pitchers these days is a bunch of hooey)…All I know is that if the 5th starter isn’t important, then there’s no harm in having Medlen pitch and then shutting him down early if we’re worried about innings, especially when the Braves simply play better behind Medlen…But regardless, I trust that Bobby and Braves’ front office will make a highly educated decision, and I will support whatever it is…
(I personally think all of this pitch count, pamper pitchers these days is a bunch of hooey)
tell that to any pitcher who played for Dusty Baker….Kerry Wood, Mark Prior, Edinson Volquez, and those are just then high end big name guys
Heyward,Hanson,and Shaffer r ready now!! Why do you think they havent signed the "right handed bat"?
by fatazfoot on Jan 7, 2009 8:59 PM EST
I'm constantly amazed
How Baker is always the go-to guy for this stuff while Girardi, who nearly ruined the Marlins staff a few years ago due to a potent combo of ignorance and arrogance, always seems to skate.
1. Love the “to hell with Medlen’s career” attitude.
2. I am not surprised at such an attitude from a person who calls one of our players “kawakrappy” every single time they refer to him.
3. Seriously, how old are you?
"It breaks your heart. It is designed to break your heart. The game begins in the spring, when everything else begins again, and it blossoms in the summer, filling the afternoons and evenings, and then as soon as the chill rains come, it stops and leaves you to face the fall alone." A. Bartlett Giamatti
It's to the point where you feel badly for him
He gets out and competes, never makes excuses, and hasn’t had much run support AT ALL this year. Most teams would be happy to have him as a 4th or 5th starter, but it’s frustrating as hell to watch at the same time. He’s too much of a magician—constantly pitching in and out of trouble, which leads to those high pitch counts. I think his lack of run support is at least partly attributed to the fact that his defense is out on the field way too long during his starts, but that’s for other people to debate.
If you want the best 5 starters going for you, then he has to get bumped when JJ gets back. I don’t know that middle relief is the best place for him either, but he’s still a valuable pitcher on this team, no matter what the stats say this season.
The stats say
that he has been a valuable pitcher on this team.
"Yeah, and I have an enchanted jock strap." -- Karl Karlson
by Jacob Peterson on Jun 20, 2010 10:56 PM EDT up reply actions
do you guys remember
last year if i ever saw the title Braves Blow Big Lead… it was never followed by still win
Well I don't consider a 4-0 lead in the first a big lead in the first place.
But that’s just me. It’s a lead? Yes. Was it blown? Yes. But any team can make up 4 runs in 8 innings.
by DogDaysofSummer on Jun 20, 2010 11:39 PM EDT up reply actions
4 runs would've been a huge lead
for last year’s team. Hell, if we scored 4 in a game I was excited.
by kbertling353 on Jun 21, 2010 12:51 AM EDT up reply actions
Some people... not most... on this blog are getting really stupid and ridiculous.
Go USA, Braves, BU Terriers, Irish, Caps, Colts, Hoyas, NU Cats, Wizards, DC United, Washington Freedom
BU Hockey: National Champions 1971, 1972, 1978, 1995, 2009
no shit.
"Sharks have a week dedicated to Jason Heyward."
by Scott Coleman on Jun 21, 2010 2:21 AM EDT up reply actions
No, they're not getting that way...
They were that way all along; there are just more of them.
"It breaks your heart. It is designed to break your heart. The game begins in the spring, when everything else begins again, and it blossoms in the summer, filling the afternoons and evenings, and then as soon as the chill rains come, it stops and leaves you to face the fall alone." A. Bartlett Giamatti
How about...
We all take a step back from the hating and nagging/complaining and take a look at where our team is right now. Weeks without one of our best pitcher. A 9-game losing streak. The mets on fire. And we are 2.5 games ahead of the second place team in the division, which happens to NOT be the team who was games away from going back to back WS Rings, and be thankful for what we DO have. Yes, there are some negitives on this team, considering all the setbacks that could have put us in the bottom, we’ve not only managed to not drown, but we’ve floated all the way to the top.
Let’s move forward the way we are, because I don’t know about you guys, but whatever were doing seems to be working, huh?
I don't know shit about baseball.
by oVecKid on Jun 21, 2010 12:29 AM EDT via mobile reply actions
This team is flying high, hitting on nearly every cylinder, consistently covering the asses of the guys who occasionally slip up…the Phillies are looking like the old men most of them are, the Mets are still deluding themselves that they’re contenders…Glaus is having a near miraculous comeback, Heyward is showing glimpses of a burgeoning Cooperstown career, Chipper has finally awakened and Prado has emerged as the best second baseman in the league.
And I come here and it’s Chapter LXVI of Piss On Kawakami Theatre? Really?
Some people really need to get a goddamned grip.
Listen up kiddos
we won today. why the hell are you talking like we’ve just lost 15 in a row in September?
"Sharks have a week dedicated to Jason Heyward."
And did anyone see the SportsCenter Encore they had on the Braves???
That was freakin awesome. Check it out if you didn’t see it. I won’t bash ESPN for a week now.
"Sharks have a week dedicated to Jason Heyward."
Wow
I’ve been checking SC and ESPN.com all week for anything on the Braves and missed that….It’s good to know that they’re at least acknowledging Atlanta.
Now I’m going to search again cause I know it exists.
Morton hit Heyward with an offspeed pitch. Early indication is that the baseball survived the impact.
this team is having fun..
and so are we….great father’s weekend with a sweep and the team playing excellent baseball. Go Braves!!
KK blows
I’ve been saying this since day 1 with this guy. He doesn’t have what it takes to be a legit MLB starter. He could work from the bullpen, but even then I would be worried when he comes onto the mound. God we need JJ back ASAP. KK looks like he belongs on the Orioles staff, seriously.
So you've been wrong for almost a season and a half now.
way to stick to your guns…. Kawakami is an average major league pitcher, and pretty solidly above average for a fifth starter which is what he is for the braves. Do I have more confidence in Medlen right now? I think so, but your hyperbole is glaring.
It's a good thing
The Braves aren’t paying you to think. In fact, sugarlips, they aren’t paying you at all.
"Jason Heyward was a Greek philosopher reincarnated as a baseball player." - Don Sutton
Comments For This Post Are Closed
Secondary Sidebar
User Tools
FanPosts
Community blog posts and discussion.
Certain photos copyright © 2012 by Associated Press or Getty Images. Any commercial use or distribution without the express written consent of Associated Press and Getty Images is strictly prohibited.
