How Many Teams Would Kenshin Kawakami Start For?
Thanks to TC member EricGreggWasPaidOff for giving me the idea for this post.
It's no secret that Kenshin Kawakami is off to a poor start in 2010. It's also no secret that his win-loss record with the Braves is very poor (7-18 at last count). That record is not indicative of his performance, however. As most of you know, KK has received very little run support throughout his Atlanta tenure: only 65 runs of support in 38 games (31 starts). Though his ERA this year is 5.73, his overall ERA with the Braves is still a solid 4.18.
These wide gaps have caused much debate on Talking Chop. Some members have been calling for KK to be moved to the bullpen, saying that he's just not an MLB-caliber starter. Others have been saying that he's perhaps the best 5th starter in all of baseball (I've made a similar claim). The goal of this post is to determine just where Kenshin ranks relative to other MLB starters. Is he a solid #4 starter or a poor #5 starter (or somewhere in between)? If he is a #5 starter, how many teams would like to have him in their rotations?
There are 3 steps to this process:
- Come up with a way of ranking all MLB starters
- Assign each starter a score indicating his place in a 5-man rotation
- Determine which teams (if any) have 5 starters that are clearly better than Kawakami
Step 1: Ranking the Starters
To start, I took a sample of all the pitchers who had started at least 1 MLB game as of Sunday (there were 177 in all). My next step was to determine how to rank them. I counted only a pitcher's numbers as a starter. I had two main components to my ranking: (1) a pitcher's ability to eat innings and (2) his run prevention.
For the first component, I totaled the number of innings each pitcher had pitched as a starter since the beginning of the 2009 season. For run prevention, I looked at a player's ERA, FIP, and xFIP*. Since both FIP and xFIP are on the same scale as ERA, they are directly comparable. If you don't like fancy stats like FIP, just think of it as a proxy for a pitcher's peripheral stats like walks, strikeouts, and home runs.
* For those of you who are unfamiliar with these stats, FIP (or Fielding-Independent Pitching statistic) measures how effective a pitcher has been using only 3 components: strikeouts, walks, and home runs allowed. xFIP is a variant of FIP that also takes into account a pitcher's ground-ball rate (more ground balls are good) and his home run / fly ball rate. The theory is that a pitcher who gives up homers on a high percentage of his fly balls is unlucky and should have given up fewer HRs, so a higher HR/FB rate will equal a lower xFIP.
So as to minimize the damage of small sample sizes, I used a player's ERA, FIP, and xFIP from this year and from 2009 (or in a few cases, the last year in which the pitcher started a game in MLB). However, I made one key adjustment: I gave double weight to a player's 2010 numbers. I did this because I recognize that a player's recent performance should bear more weight than his less-recent performance. In other words, "What have you done for me lately?" For example, I treated Kawakami's 2010 numbers as if they came in 66 innings rather than 33. Using these figures, Kenshin's ERA for my rankings is 4.53 (without the adjustment, it would have been 4.30).
Here are some graphs showing how the Braves' starters stack up with the rest of the league in each of the 4 categories used in this study. In these graphs, a smaller shaded area (closer to the center) indicates a better ranking. The dashed lines represent the outer boundary of each rotation slot. Thus, any point that is within the innermost dashed diamond is equivalent to a #1 starter-type performance. Within the second-smallest diamond indicates a #2 starter, and so on. Here is Jair Jurrjens' graph:
JJ's ERA and IP are indicative of a borderline #1 starter. His FIP is more like that of a borderline #2 starter, however, and his xFIP is that of a #4 starter. I'll let you guys decide which to place more credence in, but on average you'd have to say Jurrjens is a decent #2 starter. Now, Tommy Hanson:
The only thing holding Tommy back from true acehood is his IP mark. As he develops and starts becoming more of a workhorse, he'll clearly be an ace--his ERA and FIP are #1 starter-worthy, and his xFIP is not far behind. Here's Derek Lowe's graph:
This is where it gets interesting. We all know about Lowe's crappy ERA with the Braves. But he has thrown a lot of innings (which has value) and his peripherals indicate that he's actually been a solid #3 starter. His xFIP is so good because he has had a great groundball rate. Speaking of GB pitchers, how about Tim Hudson?
Hudson's IP ranking is low because of his injury (which makes sense, because an ace isn't much good if he's not healthy--see Webb, Brandon). Both ERA and xFIP think Hudson could be a #1 or #2 starter, but FIP thinks he's only a borderline #3 because of his low strikeout rates. Finally, here's Kawakami's graph:
Kawakami has accrued a solid number of innings--equal to a #3 starter. His run-prevention stats are less flattering, but they still indicate a solid MLB pitcher. You may think that those rankings are not impressive, but remember that there are at least 150 starters in MLB at any given time. Even if you take the most pessimistic stat--his xFIP rank of #130--he is still clearly deserving of being an MLB starter. If you prefer ERA to the advanced metrics, KK is actually a very good #4 starter.
Step 2: Giving Each Starter a Rotation Score
To do this, I took the average of each player's ERA, FIP, and xFIP as computed above. I call this stat RPA, or Run Prevention Average. I then calculated each pitcher's ranking in RPA and in Innings Pitched.
I used the average of those two rankings to form a "Rotation Score" between 0.5 and 6.5 (lower is better). When a pitcher's Rotation Score is rounded to the nearest whole number, that is his slot in the average rotation. So a Rotation Score of 1.75 indicates a good #2 starter, 3.00 is an average #3 starter, and 4.45 indicates a pitcher who is just barely good enough to be a #4 starter. A score above 5.5 indicates a pitcher that probably should be in AAA or the bullpen.
Here are the RPA ranks, IP ranks, and Rotation Scores of the Braves' pitchers:
| Starter | RPA Rank | IP Rank | Rotation Score |
| Jurrjens | 54 | 33 | 1.95 |
| Hanson | 12 | 87 | 2.15 |
| Lowe | 108 | 44 | 3.03 |
| Hudson | 39 | 132 | 3.35 |
| Kawakami | 115 | 83 | 3.80 |
| Medlen | 116 | 170 | 5.27 |
According to this metric, Jurrjens and Hanson are average #2 starters and Lowe is an average #3. Hudson is a low-end #3 and Medlen is a #5. Kawakami, meanwhile, ranks as a very good #4 starter. Obviously, the trends are different for each player (JJ, Lowe, and KK seem to be getting worse while Tommy, Timmy, and Kris are improving) but as of right now, KK is inarguably a major-league-quality starter. Even if you ignore the IP ranking, his RPA rank of 115 would still identify him as a #4 starter (though he'd be borderline).
To give you a better idea of what the Rotation Scores mean, here is a breakdown of each rotation slot and some of the pitchers who have Rotation Scores that qualify for that slot.
#1 Starter
Best #1: Roy Halladay (Rotation Score-- 0.55)
Mid-level #1s: CC Sabathia and Josh Johnson (1.00 each)
Worst #1: Ryan Dempster (1.45)
#2 Starter
Best #2s: Matt Garza and Javier Vazquez (1.53 each)
Mid-level #2s: Brett Anderson (2.00) and Andy Pettitte (2.03)
Worst #2s: Jeff Niemann and Bronson Arroyo (2.45 each)
#3 Starter
Best #3: John Lackey (2.50)
Mid-level #3s: Doug Fister (3.00) and Derek Lowe (3.03)
Worst #3: Ross Ohlendorf (3.48)
#4 Starter
Best #4s: Gio Gonzalez, Wade Davis, and Aaron Cook (3.57 each)
Mid-Level #4s: Kyle Lohse (3.98) and Brian Matusz (4.02)
Worst #4s: Ian Snell (4.45) and Fausto Carmona (4.48)
#5 Starter
Best #5s: Nelson Figueroa and Homer Bailey (4.50 each)
Mid-Level #5s: Charlie Morton (4.97) an Mitch Talbot (5.00)
Worst #5: Chris Young (5.47)
Just Missed the Cut: Kyle Kendrick and Brian Burres (5.55)
Step 3: Finding the Teams that KK Would Start For
Finally, I sorted the Rotation Scores by team and looked for teams that had 5 guys who are clearly better than Kenshin Kawakami. There were only 2 teams that clearly would not start Kawakami: the Rays (Shields, Garza, Niemann, Price, and Davis) and the Yankees (Sabathia, Vazquez, Burnett, Pettitte, and Hughes).
Two other teams might not start Kawakami. The Cubs have 5 guys rated higher (Dempster, Wells, Lilly, Zambrano, and Gorzelanny), but one of them (Carlos Zambrano) has been moved to the bullpen in favor of Carlos Silva, who is rated much lower than Kawakami. The Rockies, if all their starters are healthy, might also be able to trot out 5 guys better than KK (Jimenez, de la Rosa, Hammel, Chacin, and Cook).
The other 26 teams could all use the services of KK, though. In fact, some of them would downright LOVE to have him. For instance, Kawakami's Rotation Score would be the second-best on the Indians' staff, only a hair behind Justin Masterson's (Fausto Carmona is probably their best pitcher now, but he sucked so much last year that his score is still mediocre). At worst, Kawakami is a #3 starter on the Indians.
Kawakami's Rotation Score would also be the 3rd best on 7 teams' staffs: Astros, Blue Jays, Diamondbacks, Nationals, Orioles, Rangers, and Royals.
KK's Rotation Score would be the 4th best in 5 teams' rotations: Angels, Mariners, Mets, Pirates, and Tigers.
Finally, KK would be the 5th starter on 12 more teams (plus the Braves): A's, Brewers, Cardinals, Dodgers, Giants, Marlins, Padres, Phillies, Red Sox, Reds, Twins, and White Sox. The Twins might opt to go with Kevin Slowey (3.83) over KK for the 5th spot, so they are a borderline case. The others are more clear-cut.
Conclusion
Altogether, that is 25 teams that clearly would start Kawakami versus only 2 teams that clearly would not and 3 teams on the borderline. On 13 teams, he would probably be even better than their current 4th starter.
I am sure that you could argue that the Braves should not have signed Kawakami, or that they should not have given him so much money, but I think you'd have a very hard time arguing that he doesn't belong as a major-league starter. At least for right now. If he continues to pitch poorly, these numbers could change quickly. I don't think that will happen, though. Based on his past performance, I would expect him to get it together before long.
It's worth noting that last year at this time Kawakami had a 5.73 ERA--exactly the same as his current ERA. From May 16th to the end of the season last year, his ERA was a sparkling 3.33. I think it's unlikely that he'll be quite that good for the rest of 2010, but I also think it's extremely likely that he will be much better than he has been so far.
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Comments
0 wins?!?! 6 losses?!?!
Gah he’s terribleone
That was amazing work, I agree completely, it might help if he got some runs to work with on occassion though.
Yes.
That would definitely help. It’s hard to win when the team scores 0 runs.
"Yeah, and I have an enchanted jock strap." -- Karl Karlson
by Jacob Peterson on May 13, 2010 2:40 PM EDT up reply actions
Maybe Kawakami isn’t that bad. But Medlen’s numbers in the minors and as a reliever show he is way better. He had 2 or 3 bad starts that make his numbers look ugly.
by Alvaro Andres Pizza Varela on May 13, 2010 2:48 PM EDT up reply actions
Perhaps Medlen will be better, but he hasn’t shown it yet as a starter. Actually, I am sure that he will be. But these numbers are based on what has happened, not what will or might happen.
"Yeah, and I have an enchanted jock strap." -- Karl Karlson
by Jacob Peterson on May 13, 2010 2:56 PM EDT up reply actions
Medlen's numbers cover five starts?
His first four games in the majors last year and the one this year? Pretty hard to say anything about him with data only as a starter. It will be interesting to see how he does if he fills in for Jair.
I said the same thing
3 ugly starts don’t mean anything. His numbers in the minors are better than Jurjenjs’ had with Detroit affiliates.
Medlen is young, has upside and won’t be worse than either Kawakami or Lowe right now. When Jurjens comes back one of the two veterans has to be moved to the bullpen to make room for Medlen.
by Alvaro Andres Pizza Varela on May 13, 2010 11:37 PM EDT up reply actions
Don't misinterpret
I’m not dissing Kris at all. I know it’s a small sample, but it was the only applicable data I had. Obviously he’s better than he’s shown so far as a starter. In time, he’ll prove it. What his mediocre Rotation Score represents is the uncertainty that is present with any young pitcher who does not set the world on fire at first.
While he certainly has the ability to be a #3 or better, he hasn’t proved that he’s there yet, and that is all the Rotation Score is designed to measure. It’s not predictive, just descriptive.
"Yeah, and I have an enchanted jock strap." -- Karl Karlson
by Jacob Peterson on May 14, 2010 12:39 AM EDT up reply actions
I also don’t think it’s fair to compare Kawakami to AL pitchers. You should have made an adjustment to the league because the difference, even though it’s not large, is still significant.
by Alvaro Andres Pizza Varela on May 13, 2010 2:51 PM EDT up reply actions
So far in 2010
There has been no meaningful difference in runs scored between the leagues, so you know. There was a minor one in 2009, but I think the difference between the leagues is generally overstated.
I would have included neutralized stats if there was an easily available version of FIP or something like it that was neutral.
"Yeah, and I have an enchanted jock strap." -- Karl Karlson
by Jacob Peterson on May 13, 2010 2:55 PM EDT up reply actions
Does FIP neutralize for leagues?
And yeah, over the last 4 years the AL has averaged .001 better OPS and .01 more runs/game.
The Jordan Schafer Fan Club.
No
Starters will have slightly more Ks and slightly fewer BBs in the NL b/c they get to face the pitcher. But it is not a huge amount in this context.
For xFIP, with its focus on GB/FB and HR/FB, I’d imagine that it’s even less of a difference between the leagues.
"Yeah, and I have an enchanted jock strap." -- Karl Karlson
by Jacob Peterson on May 13, 2010 7:07 PM EDT up reply actions
What I mean is. The AL in interleagues has had like a .570 winning pct against the NL the last 4 or 5 years.
Maybe there is no difference in scoring, but the level of competition is better. So good and great talent would thrive in the AL (Yunel, Heyward, Hanson, Chipper, Wagner, Kimbrel, etc), but mediocre talent would be crushed (like Kawakami, Derek Lowe, McLouth, etc)
So I think the comparison should be made strictly for NL teams. We can’t certainly know how Kawakami’s numbers would change if he were in the Yankees, or Twins or Rangers.
by Alvaro Andres Pizza Varela on May 13, 2010 5:29 PM EDT up reply actions
I don't know if I buy that that is a league difference.
I think it’s more of a division difference. Outside of the AL East, the AL is actually pretty bad. I think any team that competes in the NL would win the AL central or west.
If there are any stats that give extra credit to AL East pitchers, I’d like to see them.
"Yeah, and I have an enchanted jock strap." -- Karl Karlson
by Jacob Peterson on May 13, 2010 7:09 PM EDT up reply actions
statcorner.com has tRA+ that adjusts for league and Starting Pitcher/Relief Pitcher.
With crappy overpaid vets of course!
by TheBravestWay To Block A Decent Prospect on May 14, 2010 12:45 AM EDT up reply actions
Yeah that's great and all
but it’s not really what I was asking for though.
"Yeah, and I have an enchanted jock strap." -- Karl Karlson
by Jacob Peterson on May 14, 2010 11:10 AM EDT up reply actions
Kawakami sucks. He’s awful. His ERA is 5.73. He’s 0-6. He’ll never win a game. I think we should trade him to Arby’s for two beef ’n cheddars and if they kick in a side of curly fries we should consider ourselves the winner in the trade. A Japanese man ate my father.
- Saskatchewan Sylvester
by BraveSaluki on May 13, 2010 2:41 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
At least a beef ’n cheddar sandwich tastes better!
The birth of Jason Heyward was God’s punishment for the sins of the people in New York and Philly.
He wouldn’t taste nearly as good as Asian reporter Tricia Takanawa.
When you've said Jason Heyward, you've said it all.........
“Yeah, but we’d just be hungry again in an hour.”
"Baseball is the only major sport that appears backwards in a mirror." ~George Carlin
by FineHamAbounds on May 14, 2010 3:57 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Thats ridiculous,
but at least you picked a tasty sandwich. I just wish we had Arbys in VT.
Reyes, Thole, Wright, Beltran, Bay, Davis, Martinez, Tejada...
by Stephen Schmidt on May 13, 2010 8:51 PM EDT up reply actions
Im pretty sure he might start on the Red Sox
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by bestbostonsports on May 13, 2010 2:42 PM EDT reply actions
Yeah, I think so.
He’s almost certainly better than Matsuzaka and Wakefield. As much as KK might be overpaid, Dice-K is way way worse.
"Yeah, and I have an enchanted jock strap." -- Karl Karlson
by Jacob Peterson on May 13, 2010 2:57 PM EDT up reply actions
god does DiceK suck
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by bestbostonsports on May 13, 2010 3:00 PM EDT up reply actions
But... but....
He doesn’t win many games!! And wins are the more important stat out there!!!! Other baseless comments that demonstrate lack of understanding of statistics and baseball!!!!
Seriously, though, great work. I love stuff like this.
FACT: Tyler Clippard is better than Roy Halladay!!
The birth of Jason Heyward was God’s punishment for the sins of the people in New York and Philly.
by TonyAlmeyda on May 13, 2010 2:48 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
lol
"Yeah, and I have an enchanted jock strap." -- Karl Karlson
by Jacob Peterson on May 13, 2010 2:57 PM EDT up reply actions
really?
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by bestbostonsports on May 13, 2010 3:00 PM EDT up reply actions
But not as good as Michael Leighton. So he has that going for himself, which is nice.
When you've said Jason Heyward, you've said it all.........
ha. ha.
Bruins will win game 7.
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by bestbostonsports on May 13, 2010 3:05 PM EDT up reply actions
I hope you’re right. The road to the Cup just got a little bit easier last night.
When you've said Jason Heyward, you've said it all.........
oh yeah no Pittsburgh
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by bestbostonsports on May 13, 2010 3:13 PM EDT up reply actions
Obviously!
Here’s the Proof.
Also, Zack Greinke is the worst pitcher in baseball!
"Yeah, and I have an enchanted jock strap." -- Karl Karlson
by Jacob Peterson on May 13, 2010 3:04 PM EDT up reply actions
Never listin to fangraphs.
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by bestbostonsports on May 13, 2010 3:06 PM EDT up reply actions
Greinke's numbers are considerably better than Kawakami though.
He plays for the Royals, which should be a handicap.
The base paths belonged to me, the runner. The rules gave me the right. I always went into a bag full speed, feet first. I had sharp spikes on my shoes. If the baseman stood where he had no business to be and got hurt, that was his fault. -Ty Cobb
Uh.
Yeah.
You aren’t good with sarcasm, are you?
"Yeah, and I have an enchanted jock strap." -- Karl Karlson
by Jacob Peterson on May 13, 2010 8:36 PM EDT up reply actions
Actually, im real good with sarcasm.
I was stating that trying to compare Greinke to Kawakami because they both have 0 wins is asinine.
The base paths belonged to me, the runner. The rules gave me the right. I always went into a bag full speed, feet first. I had sharp spikes on my shoes. If the baseman stood where he had no business to be and got hurt, that was his fault. -Ty Cobb
Wins are the most important stat, but sometimes “tough-luck” is a stat too. Kawakami would have at least 3 wins if it hadn’t been for the poor offense—granted he’s bad, but run support only makes it worse. I’d say he’s good enough to win this game if the Braves continue on with their hitting power.
Jason Heyward is the reason that Chuck Norris parks his car in a garage.
Love the analysis
But one quibble. Wouldn’t innings pitched per game started be a better barometer of a pitcher’s ability to eat innings than total amount of innings pitched? I understand that it’s important for a pitcher to not be hurt, but is a guy that only goes 5.1 a game for the last 1+ seasons really more valuable as a starter than a guy like Hudson who goes 6+ innings when, you know, he’s not recovering from surgery?
You could make that argument.
I didn’t want to underrate the importance of staying healthy, though. The fact is that Hudson has not provided the Braves with as much value in the past year-plus because of the injury. It’d be silly to ignore that.
IP/S is useful, too, though. Maybe I should have averaged the overall IP rank and the IP/S rank.
"Yeah, and I have an enchanted jock strap." -- Karl Karlson
by Jacob Peterson on May 13, 2010 3:02 PM EDT up reply actions
You can’t really fault a guy for TJ surgery.
When Healthy, Huddy is WAY above KK on that scale.
60% of the time, it works every time
I'm not faulting him
It’s just a fact that he hasn’t thrown as many innings.
Obviously, Huddy is a better pitcher than KK. As the season goes on, if he makes all his starts, Tim will vault into the #2 starter range in all likelihood.
"Yeah, and I have an enchanted jock strap." -- Karl Karlson
by Jacob Peterson on May 13, 2010 7:10 PM EDT up reply actions
We're spoiled
Plain and simple. We have one of the best rotations in baseball and Braves fans bitch because our #5 has a 5.00 ERA
Meds will eventually be a good #3, but he’s more valuable out of the pen right now.
Our #1 has a 5.00+ ERA, as well….D. Lowe, THE ACE!!
"Never doubt Derek Lowe's ability to win despite himself."
by EricGreggWasPaidOff on May 14, 2010 1:38 AM EDT up reply actions
Interesting...
But can we really assume that he will progress to the mean when we only have one season of 25 starts to use for said mean? Granted, his stats through six starts last year were very nearly identical. I just don’t think one year gives us any basis for expectations.
It gives us just as much a clue as Tommy Hanson’s performances over the past two seasons. In fact, it’s likely to be more accurate because Hanson started at a lower level last year.
Why can’t we trust the numbers on one guy because the perception of him is bad, but trust the numbers on another because the perception of him is good??
-C
Good question.
I’ll do my best to answer it. Hanson’s minor league WHIPs, aside from an anomalous 11 starts at Myrtle Beach, were consistently excellent, and his K/9 rate never dipped below 9.6. He also cut down on his home runs allowed as he progressed. So his minor league track record indicates that he can, perhaps should become a dominant starter barring injuries.
I can’t find those kinds of detailed stats on Kawakami, and I’m leary of stats attained in Japanese leagues anyway. His K/9 seemed acceptable, and it was acceptable for the Braves last year. So far this year it’s been markedly worse, but at least he’s cut down on walks. I’m not saying it’s impossible that he’s just a slow starter and will turn things around again. I’m just saying I don’t see why it would be assumed.
by Biggus Rickus on May 13, 2010 4:14 PM EDT up reply actions
Not to over-argue this point, but you’re willing to give creedance to minor league statistics, but not to the statistics that earned Kawakami the Japanese equivalent of the Cy Young and ROY awards??
-C
Yes...
Because I think Japanese baseball is only slightly better than high A ball.
by Biggus Rickus on May 13, 2010 4:21 PM EDT up reply actions
Everything I've read
Suggests that Japanese baseball is considered by most critics to be played at a much higher level than that, up to and above AAA.
-C
I meant in terms of raw ability of the players...
Experience would obviously improve the game, compared to that of a bunch of raw 20 year-olds. It’s hard to directly compare all the minors to the Japanese league, especially with the rate of turnover. Whatever its merits, the Japanese league is also a place where Tuffy Rhodes and Alex Cabrera can share the single season home run record with Oh.
by Biggus Rickus on May 13, 2010 4:43 PM EDT up reply actions
I'd mostly agree with this.
Based on everything I’ve heard (and actually seen, for that matter) in the past 20 years of watching baseball – Japanese leagues seem to be about on par with AAA.
"Never doubt Derek Lowe's ability to win despite himself."
by EricGreggWasPaidOff on May 14, 2010 1:40 AM EDT up reply actions
If you know something about age and performance, you’d know that a finesse pitcher at 35 is almost at the poing of falling off a cliff.
Kawakami is 35 and finesse.
Also, japanese batters are finesse batters. They put the ball in the ground trying to find a hole to reach base, they bunt a lot. It’s different baseball.
You just can’t compare Tommy Hanson who has way much better stuff and is 23 to Kawakami.
by Alvaro Andres Pizza Varela on May 13, 2010 5:36 PM EDT up reply actions
I never said Kawakami was better
I’m saying that you if you can consider Hanson’s numbers in the minors worthy of your confidence, then you should be able to consider Kawakami’s YEARS of experience in Japanese leagues just as worthy of confidence.
He has a proven track record at a high level of play, whereas Hanson has a couple outstanding years at a generally lower level of play.
And your statement about the difference of players actually affirms my argument. Kawakami wasn’t pitching against inexperienced hitters in Japan. They make contact, they move runners, they score runs. And he was the best pitcher in those leagues.
How many AAA ball players have huge holes in their swings, no plate discipline, etc.?? Plenty. The Japanese league has less of those issues, although the athleticism and power may not be as prevalent. They use a bigger ball, which is easier to hit, etc. So while it may not be a power-driven league, you’re facing more experience and it’s actually more hitter-friendly than our minor league counterparts.
-C
Way to write a lot without addressing the biggest hole in your argument. KK is 35 – it’s entirely possible that his decline phase has gone into high gear.
"…aren’t worthy enough to hold his (Pujols) ass cheeks apart while Playboy models wipe him with thousand dollar bills after he craps out the cure to whatever previously-incurable disease." by royhobbs 1/7/09
Exactly. Kawakami is 35. He is in the downside of his career. He won’t improve, he’ll get worse. Medlen has the upside.
by Alvaro Andres Pizza Varela on May 13, 2010 11:40 PM EDT up reply actions
You act as if Kawakami is a pitcher for the future
We have him for one more year.
Going by the average age acceleration rate, he should be 36 then.
O NOEZ, NOT 36!!!!!!!!!!!
I didn’t address this “hole” because it’s not an issue. But, by all means, keep railing on it. I wouldn’t want you to start talking sense out of the blue.
-C
by cthabeerman on May 14, 2010 11:04 AM EDT up reply actions
DUDE HE’S SUPER OLD AND HE SUCKS WE SHUD TRADE HIM FOR GRATE PLAYERS BECUZ WE NEED GRATE PLAYERS NOT SUCKY PLAYERS SO WE SHOULD TRADE HIM FOR GRATE PICHERS OR MAYBE A 3B BECAUSE I WOOD LIKE THAT.
-C
by cthabeerman on May 14, 2010 11:46 AM EDT up reply actions
+ however many you want. Well-done!
This guy wants to suck all the cubs dick can he not have an unbias some what partition reguards
by RWH2 on Apr 5, 2010 10:20 AM CDT
by justincredubil02 on May 14, 2010 2:32 PM EDT up reply actions
But seriously, he turns 35 in about a month. And we all know how finesse pitchers throw at 35. Just ask Alvaro, he’ll tell you.
-C
by cthabeerman on May 14, 2010 11:50 AM EDT up reply actions
Again, way to change things around to suit your argument
You act as if Kawakami is a pitcher for the future
No one is acting like this. You say that KK’s going to get better as the season progresses because of his “YEARS of experience in Japanese leagues”. I’m saying that while those years of experience provide the track record, they also indicate that he may be in his decline phase. People don’t improve out of their decline phase. Perhaps you can acknowledge that there’s a possiblity – however slight – that he’s experiencing more than just a slow start.
"…aren’t worthy enough to hold his (Pujols) ass cheeks apart while Playboy models wipe him with thousand dollar bills after he craps out the cure to whatever previously-incurable disease." by royhobbs 1/7/09
by buzzdeadwax on May 14, 2010 12:17 PM EDT up reply actions
I never said he’ll get better because of the years in Japan. I’m saying that his years there establish a track record of why his currents stats are just as credible as Hanson’s were in the minor leagues.
Do I think he’ll get better?? Sure. His last start was pretty good, if you throw out a costly error by Infante that was ruled a hit and Melky’s non-throw to the plate. That’s two runs lost by his defense that were put on him.
Other than that, he pitched pretty well. Gave up three homers, but they were all solo shots. If that game was played in Atlanta, he would’ve had 3ER over almost seven innings instead of the five (actually less because Polanco’s HR wouldn’t have been a HR anywhere but in that ballpark, but that’s another argument). His ERA would have gone down a little instead of up.
He’s just had some bad luck in other starts, which has greatly contributed to his lack of wins. This just happens to be one of those cases where the numbers don’t necessarily bear out the truth.
If you have some direct evidence that leads you to believe that he’s in a decline, I’d love to hear it. Right now, all I’m hearing is that it’s his age, which is about as circumstantial an argument as you can find. There’s been plenty of pitchers, especially finesse pitchers, that have done just fine at his age and beyond. Although he’s clearly not of their caliber, Maddux and Glavine pitched very well for us at 35, Moyer is still going strong at ancient.
If you were to argue he’s lost some velocity (which I couldn’t tell you if he has or hasn’t), that would be a direct indication that he’s lost something. But no one’s doing that. They just point to the number 35 and say, “Look.” Then they pretend it’s a water-tight argument.
The thing is, this whole study was done using his current numbers, which aren’t great, and he still ranks above a lot of pitchers throwing in the five slot. But everyone is so quick to the “Point and look” school of thought, which is far inferior to the evidence reported in this article.
-C
I'm not saying that I want him to be in decline, only that it's a possibility
I don’t have any evidence to prove he’s in decline. You don’t have any evidence to prove that he isn’t. No big deal – we want the same thing, which is for KK to pitch well.
"…aren’t worthy enough to hold his (Pujols) ass cheeks apart while Playboy models wipe him with thousand dollar bills after he craps out the cure to whatever previously-incurable disease." by royhobbs 1/7/09
You realize that KK started last year slowly and ended up being downright brilliant, right?
Perhaps he is just a slow starter?
This guy wants to suck all the cubs dick can he not have an unbias some what partition reguards
by RWH2 on Apr 5, 2010 10:20 AM CDT
by justincredubil02 on May 14, 2010 2:33 PM EDT up reply actions
Could be
I’d certainly prefer it. I just get argumentative when people are too certain about something they shouldn’t be so certain about. :-)
"…aren’t worthy enough to hold his (Pujols) ass cheeks apart while Playboy models wipe him with thousand dollar bills after he craps out the cure to whatever previously-incurable disease." by royhobbs 1/7/09
Oh, by the way...
…son of sourman, is that you?!?!?
"…aren’t worthy enough to hold his (Pujols) ass cheeks apart while Playboy models wipe him with thousand dollar bills after he craps out the cure to whatever previously-incurable disease." by royhobbs 1/7/09
by buzzdeadwax on May 14, 2010 12:19 PM EDT up reply actions
Haha, whatever happened to that guy. Banned I imagine.
Another uninnocent, elegant fall into the unmagnificent lives of adults...
by Smoltz's Beard on May 14, 2010 12:44 PM EDT up reply actions
Banned
He went on some tirade after gondeee did a series of interviews with propect-watchers (Law, Goldstein) about how stupid the questions were and that a monkey was smarter (or some other type of insult). It was like suicide by cop – without the gravity or actual dying part.
"…aren’t worthy enough to hold his (Pujols) ass cheeks apart while Playboy models wipe him with thousand dollar bills after he craps out the cure to whatever previously-incurable disease." by royhobbs 1/7/09
Another uninnocent, elegant fall into the unmagnificent lives of adults...
by Smoltz's Beard on May 14, 2010 2:37 PM EDT up reply actions
Dude, the comment about a list of people who have been banned and why is genius. We need to make that happen!
This guy wants to suck all the cubs dick can he not have an unbias some what partition reguards
by RWH2 on Apr 5, 2010 10:20 AM CDT
by justincredubil02 on May 14, 2010 3:30 PM EDT up reply actions
His age is a great reason why the Braves should deal him...
…if they continue to struggle.
Because other teams won’t know that he is 35. Sneak attack!
by BraveSaluki on May 13, 2010 6:41 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
This
"…aren’t worthy enough to hold his (Pujols) ass cheeks apart while Playboy models wipe him with thousand dollar bills after he craps out the cure to whatever previously-incurable disease." by royhobbs 1/7/09
This is also true.
Japanese leagues tend to play baseball with a different philosophy for both hitting and pitching.
"Never doubt Derek Lowe's ability to win despite himself."
by EricGreggWasPaidOff on May 14, 2010 1:42 AM EDT up reply actions
I thought about making it 2 posts
but then decided against it. Sorry if I hurt your brain.
"Yeah, and I have an enchanted jock strap." -- Karl Karlson
by Jacob Peterson on May 13, 2010 7:20 PM EDT up reply actions
It's not like they're ahead of us in the divison.
And have a pitcher with like a 1.2 ERA named Livan Hernandez or anything.
Headlining the Campaign for the return of Ryan Langerhans! MVP 2011!
by RichmondBraves on May 14, 2010 4:37 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Rec’d for OGT
This guy wants to suck all the cubs dick can he not have an unbias some what partition reguards
by RWH2 on Apr 5, 2010 10:20 AM CDT
by justincredubil02 on May 14, 2010 4:39 PM EDT up reply actions
lolwut
Pretty sure my statistics beat his statistics. Of which there were none.
Headlining the Campaign for the return of Ryan Langerhans! MVP 2011!
by RichmondBraves on May 16, 2010 6:15 PM EDT up reply actions
Great stuff as always
My question is where do you get all the raw data to manipulate? Is it downloadable from somewhere?
by KoKo the Monkey (T-Bone) on May 13, 2010 4:03 PM EDT reply actions
For this post,
FanGraphs. You can download the data to a few different formats or just copy and paste it.
I also use Baseball-reference.com a lot.
"Yeah, and I have an enchanted jock strap." -- Karl Karlson
by Jacob Peterson on May 13, 2010 7:12 PM EDT up reply actions
yeah right
the AJC isn’t really interested in writers who use stats to back up their opinions.
"(Jason Heyward) is like the Grim Reaper -- you know he's going to get you, you just don't know where or when."
by Scott Coleman on May 13, 2010 5:41 PM EDT up reply actions
I think the AJC
has this thing called a “word limit”. That’d mess me up.
"Yeah, and I have an enchanted jock strap." -- Karl Karlson
by Jacob Peterson on May 13, 2010 7:12 PM EDT up reply actions
I Going To Take The High Road Here
And would like to ask for a fresh start with many TC’ers here.
I refuse to post on this story. I believe tomorrow start against the D’Backs is Kenshin biggest start of the year.
We need to keep the momentum going here and try to get on a little role/back to .500/and back to where all fans believe we should be – and that’s contending for the division title.
Things were dark and bleak the last couple of weeks. Most of my posts were based on disappointment/disgust and getting caught up in the moment.
My apologies…and hopefully the worst is over for us Braves fans.
Let’s go Los Bravos!!!!
by Nova Scotia Steve on May 13, 2010 4:11 PM EDT reply actions
Apology accepted. Don’t let it happen again…
This guy wants to suck all the cubs dick can he not have an unbias some what partition reguards
by RWH2 on Apr 5, 2010 10:20 AM CDT
by justincredubil02 on May 13, 2010 6:13 PM EDT up reply actions
Thanks You Sir
May I have another…
by Nova Scotia Steve on May 14, 2010 9:39 AM EDT up reply actions
I'm Going To Take The High Road Here (Better Grammar)
And would like to ask for a fresh start with many TC’ers here.
I refuse to post on this story. I believe tomorrow’s start against the D’Backs is Kenshin’s biggest start of the year.
We need to keep the momentum going here and try to get on a little role/back to .500/and back to where all fans believe we should be – and that’s contending for the division title.
Things were dark and bleak the last couple of weeks. Most of my posts were based on disappointment/disgust and getting caught up in the moment.
My apologies…and hopefully the worst is over for us Braves fans.
Let’s go Los Bravos!!!!
by Nova Scotia Steve on May 13, 2010 4:13 PM EDT reply actions
To Complete the Argument
You need to list the salaries of the #4’s and #5’s for the other teams and see how KK compares.
I have no idea how it will pan out, but the point to make is that even if KK pitches like a “#4”, if we aren’t getting good value in terms of $ paid / WAR, then its still not a good idea to have him. If for example KK only provides +1 WAR over a pitcher with lesser stats that makes league minimum, then that 7.3M – 0.4M difference in salary could be used to acquire other players that improve the team’s performance.
That's a whole separate discussion
as I point out in the Conclusion.
Your point is completely valid, but it doesn’t affect anything I said about KK being a MLB-caliber starter.
"Yeah, and I have an enchanted jock strap." -- Karl Karlson
by Jacob Peterson on May 13, 2010 7:13 PM EDT up reply actions
The discussion is whether we could readily get better production from his starts
From a free agent for less or similar money, and that’s always debatable.
KK’s had a little bit of bad luck this year, and to some extent, he’s been staying in games longer than he needs. Seems like he’ll get hammered pretty hard during the 6th inning. I’m not sure of the reasons-it could be that his grip is weakening, or his arm angle suffers-but it’s clear he’s not getting the ball down as well once he’s gone to a certain point.
For all this, I’m really happy with what he provides for the value. Would we be better off with Medlen pitching his games? Perhaps.
Good stuff.
It will be interesting to see if KK does what he did last year and really starts picking it up
I don’t think the salary makes a difference in this case. Don’t forget the state of our starting rotation at the time that KK was signed. Honestly, at that time who among us wasn’t paranoid about the Braves rotation dealing with the same injuries and issues as the previous season? All I’m saying is I was happy over the KK and D. Lowe signings and the Vaz trade. I did think we over paid for D. Lowe and KK but really, the market and our issues kind of drove the dollars on us. Great post Pac! Every time you put one of these up here I feel like I should be sitting at a Desk with some paper and pencil taking notes! REC’D
I'll try to
Remind me.
"Yeah, and I have an enchanted jock strap." -- Karl Karlson
by Jacob Peterson on May 13, 2010 7:14 PM EDT up reply actions
I’ll try to remind you, as well.
"Never doubt Derek Lowe's ability to win despite himself."
by EricGreggWasPaidOff on May 14, 2010 1:46 AM EDT up reply actions
Word can’t describe how I feel about pacgnosis, but not in a creepy way. Your beautiful poetry of stats guide you to the ultimate truth, which is then shared with the ravenous, albeit fickle, fan base of the Atlanta Braves.
I really don’t know if you just have a lot of time on your hands or are just good at the maths.
Just another reason why this sports blog is the envy of all others.
Congratulations and good day to you, sir!
I am pretty good at math
but this is mostly just manipulation of Excel spreadsheets. I had some time the past few days, but these posts generally don’t take as long as you might think.
"Yeah, and I have an enchanted jock strap." -- Karl Karlson
by Jacob Peterson on May 13, 2010 7:15 PM EDT up reply actions
Thanks
Great post. All the research that I wish I had time to do. Well done, well said, and all the KK haters, STFU.
by Andy Braves Fan on May 13, 2010 5:07 PM EDT reply actions
off topic:
the royals just fired Trey Hillman and replaced him with Ned Yost, I believe that Yost was a candidate to coach the braves next season
The PuertoRican Kid
by Kobe:The Legend on May 13, 2010 5:41 PM EDT reply actions
eh
give me Fredi Gonzalez.
"(Jason Heyward) is like the Grim Reaper -- you know he's going to get you, you just don't know where or when."
by Scott Coleman on May 13, 2010 5:50 PM EDT up reply actions
That'd be my first pick, too.
Ned Yost I’m not a fan of.
"Yeah, and I have an enchanted jock strap." -- Karl Karlson
by Jacob Peterson on May 13, 2010 7:15 PM EDT up reply actions
I like Ned. He would be on my list, but not at the top.
This guy wants to suck all the cubs dick can he not have an unbias some what partition reguards
by RWH2 on Apr 5, 2010 10:20 AM CDT
by justincredubil02 on May 13, 2010 7:16 PM EDT up reply actions
Haha no
The GM basically said make the playoffs or you’re gone.
"(Jason Heyward) is like the Grim Reaper -- you know he's going to get you, you just don't know where or when."
by Scott Coleman on May 13, 2010 7:59 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
He got the ever-popular "Vote of Confidence" a couple of days ago.
As likely as not, he’s already called U-Haul looking into rates and schedules.
Excel
I just use the basic chart/graph editor and then tweak it until I like how it looks. Admittedly, it sometimes takes a lot of finagling to get that to happen. I’ve got a lot of Excel experience so I know a lot of tricks.
I’m thinking about switching over to Photoshop for some graphs. We’ll see if that helps.
"Yeah, and I have an enchanted jock strap." -- Karl Karlson
by Jacob Peterson on May 13, 2010 7:17 PM EDT up reply actions
GET OUT OF HERE WITH YOUR STATS!!!
"(Jason Heyward) is like the Grim Reaper -- you know he's going to get you, you just don't know where or when."
Yeah
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that’s even remotely true!
"Batting second and playing shortstop-he's Cuban. Yeah, his name's Pablo...no, eh, Yunel Escobar, sorry"
Pac, you have done it again, old chap.
So, basically, you have provided concrete evidence to support my theory that KK is an average #3, good #4 and outstanding #5.
I <3 you in a completely hetero sort of way. You are slowly becoming my new KJ.
This guy wants to suck all the cubs dick can he not have an unbias some what partition reguards
by RWH2 on Apr 5, 2010 10:20 AM CDT
by justincredubil02 on May 13, 2010 6:15 PM EDT reply actions
I just hope
that I don’t get non-tendered!
"Yeah, and I have an enchanted jock strap." -- Karl Karlson
by Jacob Peterson on May 13, 2010 7:17 PM EDT up reply actions
It will be ok for you if you do. Like KJ getting away from TP and then becoming one of the best hitting second baseman in the NL, getting away from royhobbs would probably elevate you to true journalism, like where you actually get paid.
Shouldn't Wes Timmons get a shot at 3B over that Chipper guy everybody talks about?
Speaking from experience
Journalists do not get paid.
I worked at Wal-Mart for seven years during high school and college to help with finances. Upon taking my job as a sports writer after graduating from college, I got hired and promptly received a pay-cut to work for a daily newspaper.
-C
by cthabeerman on May 14, 2010 11:07 AM EDT up reply actions
Psssssh… I took an AJB buyout to NOT work for a newspaper.
"Baseball is the only major sport that appears backwards in a mirror." ~George Carlin
by FineHamAbounds on May 14, 2010 1:46 PM EDT up reply actions
I'm not really interested
in being a “journalist”. I’m more comfortable being an “analyst/commentator” kind of thing. “Journalism” has, you know, “standards”. I don’t like that.
(OK, enough “quotes” for one “post”.)
"Yeah, and I have an enchanted jock strap." -- Karl Karlson
by Jacob Peterson on May 14, 2010 11:12 AM EDT up reply actions
So is that
kind of a sad blue color? I need to know which crayon to use.
"Yeah, and I have an enchanted jock strap." -- Karl Karlson
by Jacob Peterson on May 13, 2010 7:18 PM EDT up reply actions
Unimpressed
![]()
Help me! Some bullies threw my shoes over a telephone wire...with me in them!!
by !Vive la Francoeur! on May 13, 2010 9:18 PM EDT up reply actions
I just watched that tonight. It was la-a-a-a-ame. Pretty looking, but lame.
"Baseball is the only major sport that appears backwards in a mirror." ~George Carlin
by FineHamAbounds on May 14, 2010 3:58 AM EDT up reply actions
The people at Disney that wrote Pocahontas should really sue. All Cameron did was change the color of the natives and add bigger guns.
Shouldn't Wes Timmons get a shot at 3B over that Chipper guy everybody talks about?
The people at Disney that wrote Pocahontas should really sue. All Cameron did was change the color of the natives and add bigger guns.
And Dances with Wolves, and Fern Gully…what a crap movie Avatar was.
People will come Ray. The one constant through all the years, Ray, has been baseball. America has rolled by like an army of steamrollers. It has been erased like a blackboard, rebuilt and erased again. But baseball has marked the time. This field, this game: it's a part of our past, Ray. It reminds of us of all that once was good and it could be again.
I liked the movie
but the storyline was very borrowed (Dances with Wolves, the Last Samurai)…
by Andy Braves Fan on May 14, 2010 6:00 PM EDT up reply actions
KK haters
you have just been owned.
Jason Heyward wins at baseball.
by bbxxj on May 13, 2010 6:48 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
Severely.
This guy wants to suck all the cubs dick can he not have an unbias some what partition reguards
by RWH2 on Apr 5, 2010 10:20 AM CDT
by justincredubil02 on May 13, 2010 7:02 PM EDT up reply actions
Well done...
"I may not agree with what you say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it." Beatrice Hall paraphrasing Voltaire. That being said, it is "Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt." Abraham Lincoln
by Vance in Sacramento on May 13, 2010 7:08 PM EDT reply actions
Great job Pac! How do you find time to do all of this? You, my friend, are a champ!
You know what I love? People saying, “this is great, but you should have done this (enter statistical number crunching) as well because it would have made this post sooooo much better…”
It’s like saying, “Hey, great job Shakespeare! Hamlet was an excellent book and story, but you should have included robots, lasers, and a donkey named Sally because it could have been better.”
People will come Ray. The one constant through all the years, Ray, has been baseball. America has rolled by like an army of steamrollers. It has been erased like a blackboard, rebuilt and erased again. But baseball has marked the time. This field, this game: it's a part of our past, Ray. It reminds of us of all that once was good and it could be again.
In fairness
a robot donkey with lasers would be pretty damn awesome.
Seriously, I always appreciate constructive comments and criticism. People have good ideas, especially the smart folks around here.
"Yeah, and I have an enchanted jock strap." -- Karl Karlson
by Jacob Peterson on May 13, 2010 7:19 PM EDT up reply actions
I understand where you are coming from. I guess I just see it as a backhanded compliment. This is good but….
The Robot Donkey with Lasers has to be named Sally…oh…or Lankey.
People will come Ray. The one constant through all the years, Ray, has been baseball. America has rolled by like an army of steamrollers. It has been erased like a blackboard, rebuilt and erased again. But baseball has marked the time. This field, this game: it's a part of our past, Ray. It reminds of us of all that once was good and it could be again.
A robot donkey with lasers would be…
wait for it…
REDONKULOUS!!!!
/cue groans, and honestly, if I were banned for that it would be deserved
Shouldn't Wes Timmons get a shot at 3B over that Chipper guy everybody talks about?
Oooh, ooh! I have one:
A robot donkey dinosaur with lasers would be:
Redonkulasaurus!
This guy wants to suck all the cubs dick can he not have an unbias some what partition reguards
by RWH2 on Apr 5, 2010 10:20 AM CDT
by justincredubil02 on May 14, 2010 9:35 AM EDT up reply actions
lol
People will come Ray. The one constant through all the years, Ray, has been baseball. America has rolled by like an army of steamrollers. It has been erased like a blackboard, rebuilt and erased again. But baseball has marked the time. This field, this game: it's a part of our past, Ray. It reminds of us of all that once was good and it could be again.
haha I first read this as
“Seriously, I always appreciate constructive comments and racism.” I was like….hmmmm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ae06LFa3i38
The base paths belonged to me, the runner. The rules gave me the right. I always went into a bag full speed, feet first. I had sharp spikes on my shoes. If the baseman stood where he had no business to be and got hurt, that was his fault. -Ty Cobb
DAMN!! You beat me to it!!! Anybody have some lasers??
People will come Ray. The one constant through all the years, Ray, has been baseball. America has rolled by like an army of steamrollers. It has been erased like a blackboard, rebuilt and erased again. But baseball has marked the time. This field, this game: it's a part of our past, Ray. It reminds of us of all that once was good and it could be again.
Sharks with frickin lasers on their heads!
Jason Heyward wins at baseball.
by bbxxj on May 13, 2010 7:41 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
LOL I’m a conspiracy theorist and Christopher Marlowe wrote all of them after faking his own death!
Cockchafer
Murder of Crows = awesome movie.
"Never doubt Derek Lowe's ability to win despite himself."
by EricGreggWasPaidOff on May 14, 2010 1:49 AM EDT up reply actions
Actually it was a young chap named Samuel Clemens.
When you've said Jason Heyward, you've said it all.........
I heard it was Sir Francis Bacon (I think)
by Andy Braves Fan on May 14, 2010 6:02 PM EDT up reply actions
+2 Histories for you.
This guy wants to suck all the cubs dick can he not have an unbias some what partition reguards
by RWH2 on Apr 5, 2010 10:20 AM CDT
by justincredubil02 on May 14, 2010 7:01 PM EDT up reply actions
pacgnosis....
is my pen name…
KIDDING
People will come Ray. The one constant through all the years, Ray, has been baseball. America has rolled by like an army of steamrollers. It has been erased like a blackboard, rebuilt and erased again. But baseball has marked the time. This field, this game: it's a part of our past, Ray. It reminds of us of all that once was good and it could be again.
wait,
if pacgnosis is your pen name, than mvandonsel doesn’t actualy exist. Because the pen name is the only one that matters, and a person without a name is a nobody. So, was Homer actually right when he said:
“>Lisa, vampires are make-believe, like elves, gremlins, and Eskimos”?
"Batting second and playing shortstop-he's Cuban. Yeah, his name's Pablo...no, eh, Yunel Escobar, sorry"
Your pen name will be royhobbs
When the magic city-hopping adventures of mvandonsel’s 2009 season comes to fruition in the most epic fanpost in the history of the internet.
No wonder nobody likes you, Tuttle... everything's a (Pujols) damn debate.
I don't get it
Wouldn’t anything be better with donkeys who have laser beams attached to their heads fighting evil robots from Jupiter? Why do you hat America so much?
"…aren’t worthy enough to hold his (Pujols) ass cheeks apart while Playboy models wipe him with thousand dollar bills after he craps out the cure to whatever previously-incurable disease." by royhobbs 1/7/09
There was an interesting thing on...I think it was THBT
Basically saying that there’s no such thing as a #5 starter. That is, you usually have enough mobility in your rotation that the 5th guy is barely used more than your fill-in, or 6th guy. So to look at 5th guy numbers, you’re essentially just hoping for someone to be replacement level over X amount of innings.
Not that I’m sure it’s relevant.
Well that may be the case
I think there are several different types of guys who get lumped into that role:
1) Aging veterans who were once good but are just hanging on now
2) AAAA-type guys who bounce from team to team
3) Young guys who may (or may not) have the promise to develop into something more
It’d probably be best to only compare each type to itself, but that’s hard to do.
Still, I think any contender has to hope to get better than replacement level from its 5th starter. Actually, you could argue that that is part of what makes a team a contender. (The Phillies excluded)
"Yeah, and I have an enchanted jock strap." -- Karl Karlson
by Jacob Peterson on May 13, 2010 8:41 PM EDT up reply actions
I don't really buy that at all
If you look at an MLB year long schedule, there are enough long stretches around off days that you still need at least 15-20 starts from your #5. Another way you can look at it — rarely does anyone start more than 35 games in a year. 35 * 4 = 140. That means you need 22 “spot starts” from somebody else. That’s a little more than “fill-in” in my book.
I think you misread the article
The point they were teying to make was that most of the time, one or more of your five starters is going to miss a bunch of time forcing your team to use another starter for an extended stretch. This makes the idea that “he’s just a fifth starter” kind of pointless.
Reyes, Thole, Wright, Beltran, Bay, Davis, Martinez, Tejada...
by Stephen Schmidt on May 13, 2010 9:33 PM EDT up reply actions
It's been a while
So what I’m taking from memory may not at all represent what the article is about.
Pac, you beat me to the punch by about a week. I have half of the data I was going to use sitting in a spreadsheet, but I’m moving this week and that’s taken priority over number-crunching.
But, for what it’s worth, I was looking at a few other metrics and with about half of the NL sitting in my dataset at the moment, KK has pitched better than most teams’ 4th and 5th starters, no doubt about it.
Cool.
Yeah, I would’ve included more stats too but this was long enough as it is. Good to see that you confirmed these results with other metrics too.
"Yeah, and I have an enchanted jock strap." -- Karl Karlson
by Jacob Peterson on May 13, 2010 8:42 PM EDT up reply actions
As the catalyst for this post, I encourage you to go ahead and finish up your analysis. Maybe it will highlight a few new and interesting aspects.
"Never doubt Derek Lowe's ability to win despite himself."
by EricGreggWasPaidOff on May 14, 2010 1:52 AM EDT up reply actions
+Post it when you’re finished (although this may have gone without saying it)
"Never doubt Derek Lowe's ability to win despite himself."
by EricGreggWasPaidOff on May 14, 2010 1:52 AM EDT up reply actions
Pac
New story idea: Look at each story ever written on TC that received a rec. Total up the recs and divide so that we have a rec per person stat. I want to know who is the most valuable writer (MVW) of TC.
I think you’re probably it…
"If I have asthma, they won't let me scuba. And if I can’t scuba, then what’s this all been about?? What am I working toward??"
"You look like you should be married to one of the San Diego Padres."
I don’t need a stat personally. I’ve been to the show and I’ve seen all the ponies. I can “feel” who is best.
It’s Sgt. Slaughter, hands down.
When you've said Jason Heyward, you've said it all.........
Kenshin
stats have their place, obviously, but sometimes miss the qualitative
yet important. having watched KK a number of times It is fair to conclude
he has decent ‘stuff’. yet every third or fourth pitch is fat and either gets
laced or he gets luck and the ball manages to reach a fielder. sometimes
you can hear the smack on the fielder’s glove. with his experience by
now he would throw fewer ‘mistakes’. this is old school but holds up.
medlen and in short order even minor will likely provide the steadier
hand and not at the same time pose a major risk in middle relief.
Qualitatively
I’d say that KK has good days and bad days. On his good days, he’s fairly dominant (his curve in particular is nasty), but on bad days he leaves some pitches up in the zone and gets whacked pretty hard.
Then again, that scouting report could apply to half the pitchers in the league. Which is why we have stats.
"Yeah, and I have an enchanted jock strap." -- Karl Karlson
by Jacob Peterson on May 13, 2010 8:44 PM EDT up reply actions
That'd be my vote, too
"Yeah, and I have an enchanted jock strap." -- Karl Karlson
by Jacob Peterson on May 13, 2010 8:41 PM EDT up reply actions
I was actually thinking of doing a running tally of the Braves’ record depending on which of us is assigned to that series: gondeee, mvhsbball, or me. Then we could crown one of us the “Most Valuable Previewer”.
I’m pretty sure I’d be dead last in that metric right about now.
"Yeah, and I have an enchanted jock strap." -- Karl Karlson
by Jacob Peterson on May 13, 2010 8:45 PM EDT up reply actions
I’d imagine I’m right around .500. I had the Brewers sweep and Padres 2/3 series, but had the Cardinals series (gross.), and I think a Nats series too.
"(Jason Heyward) is like the Grim Reaper -- you know he's going to get you, you just don't know where or when."
by Scott Coleman on May 13, 2010 9:57 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Yep, I’m 6-7 on the season if I’m counting right.
"(Jason Heyward) is like the Grim Reaper -- you know he's going to get you, you just don't know where or when."
by Scott Coleman on May 13, 2010 10:13 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I had 19 recs last week,
But yeah…I’m probably still in last place.
"(Jason Heyward) is like the Grim Reaper -- you know he's going to get you, you just don't know where or when."
by Scott Coleman on May 13, 2010 9:58 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I had 7 recs once….
"Batting second and playing shortstop-he's Cuban. Yeah, his name's Pablo...no, eh, Yunel Escobar, sorry"
But you run and score NAHWAL…mad points for that
"(Jason Heyward) is like the Grim Reaper -- you know he's going to get you, you just don't know where or when."
by Scott Coleman on May 13, 2010 10:10 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
no, its based soley on recs.. I get brownie points for NAHWAL (which I should probably go catch up on)
"Batting second and playing shortstop-he's Cuban. Yeah, his name's Pablo...no, eh, Yunel Escobar, sorry"
Fair enough. And get working on those now!
"(Jason Heyward) is like the Grim Reaper -- you know he's going to get you, you just don't know where or when."
by Scott Coleman on May 13, 2010 10:23 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I think the only one that I have ever done that received recs was my KK post last year.
This guy wants to suck all the cubs dick can he not have an unbias some what partition reguards
by RWH2 on Apr 5, 2010 10:20 AM CDT
by justincredubil02 on May 13, 2010 11:08 PM EDT up reply actions
Sonuvabitch
We’re in last place again. Our season is over.
"(Jason Heyward) is like the Grim Reaper -- you know he's going to get you, you just don't know where or when."
by Scott Coleman on May 13, 2010 11:13 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
Damn those pesky Marlins….
"Never doubt Derek Lowe's ability to win despite himself."
by EricGreggWasPaidOff on May 14, 2010 1:54 AM EDT up reply actions
Regrettably
Starting a new assignment kept me from enjoying this when it was freshly picked off the tree. Nothing I’d want to say hasn’t already been said, from vs. finances to all the otherwise superb remarks. Excellent work, as always.
No wonder nobody likes you, Tuttle... everything's a (Pujols) damn debate.
Trade this guy already (KK)
It was a terrible deal to bring “KK” here from Japan in the first place; we way overpaided for him and D. Lowe two offseasons ago. If we are out of it in Aug look for us to unload B. Wagner, Saito, KK, and D. Lowe to acquire picks, and hopefully a real good 3B prospect which we really lack in our system.
3B prospect or Vet that is the question for next season b/c with no Bobby Cox returning to the bench in 2011 that more than likely means that Chipper Jones is done after this year as well. Chipper has struggled again this year and really needs to hang up with the cleats; he said that if he has another season like the one before he is going to call it a career .
So with the above said my trade ideas for KK;
Trade #1
KK & Jo Jo Reyes
FOR
Casey McGehee 3B Brewers
~ really liked the way that McGehee hits and fields the 3B position but I seriously doubt the Brew Crew would let him go for just KK however their starting pitching is so awful that they more than likely would take anyone over whom they have now.
Trade #2
“KK” & Jo-Jo
For
Alex Gordon (3B) Royals
Been a bit injury prone and the Royals have reassigned him to the minor a couple of times however I have always like Gordon as a player and I would love to have him here in ATL. Seems as if Royals want to protect him but are no longer that much in love with their former star and he as well as the Royals would benefit from a fresh start. Great fit for both teams royals get two Braves players (their favorite thing to collect) lol and the Braves get a great a true backup 3B for this season and the next season he can take over for Chipper full time.
Either way KK and Jo-Jo need to be out of here and I will throw in S. Marek in the trade as well to sweeten the pot to get it done.
Medlen can easily put up the numbers that KK has; 0-6 plz the guy is terrible.
Go Braves.
by Holty_Panthers_Fan on May 14, 2010 12:48 AM EDT reply actions 8 recs
Rec’d
"(Jason Heyward) is like the Grim Reaper -- you know he's going to get you, you just don't know where or when."
by Scott Coleman on May 14, 2010 1:07 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I continue to be befuddled by comments like these that complain about the poor performance of players (Melky, McLouth, Jo-Jo, KK, and others) and then expect them to be traded for a decent player. It’s as if you think that other teams don’t have a scouting department. Believe it or not, other teams are not clamoring to have our underperforming players on their team. Getting rid of Francoeur last year was a gift, we could have been stuck with him all year. Franky Wren ain’t Rumpelstiltskin, he can’t spin gold out of straw, and Omar Minaya isn’t gonna take all of our trash off our hands.
I really liked the KK and JoJo (with Steven Marek thrown in to “sweet the pot”) for Casey McGehee trade.
Seriously? There’s no way in hell the Braves would make that trade!
"(Jason Heyward) is like the Grim Reaper -- you know he's going to get you, you just don't know where or when."
by Scott Coleman on May 14, 2010 1:39 AM EDT up reply actions
How do you know?
Have we offered Melky, McLouth, Jo-Jo and D. Lowe to Minaya? He might take them, along with all their salaries owed in exchange for large amounts of cash and every prospect in their farm, plus two players of our choice from the ML team. It just depends on if Frank Wren catches him right after he’s finished smoking his crack.
"Never doubt Derek Lowe's ability to win despite himself."
by EricGreggWasPaidOff on May 14, 2010 1:58 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Now, I'm going to laugh uncontrollably the next few times I see Minaya on TV.
Actually, if we could just catch Manuel manning the phone, I think we could pull that deal off.
i assume he was being sarcastic?
I hope…i mean, you cant even trade for picks…
"If I have asthma, they won't let me scuba. And if I can’t scuba, then what’s this all been about?? What am I working toward??"
"You look like you should be married to one of the San Diego Padres."
that's what I thought at first
until I saw who posted it
This
Holty is a really sucky poster. He/she/it might not be a bad guy/girl/4 assed mongoose, but that doesn’t make the quality of the posts any better.
"…aren’t worthy enough to hold his (Pujols) ass cheeks apart while Playboy models wipe him with thousand dollar bills after he craps out the cure to whatever previously-incurable disease." by royhobbs 1/7/09
by buzzdeadwax on May 14, 2010 12:31 PM EDT up reply actions
OGT is a GO! GO! GO!
This guy wants to suck all the cubs dick can he not have an unbias some what partition reguards
by RWH2 on Apr 5, 2010 10:20 AM CDT
by justincredubil02 on May 14, 2010 8:42 AM EDT up reply actions
OGT Ohio Graduation Test
OGT Operation Game Thief (various US state anti-poaching programs)
OGT Oral Glucose Tolerance (Test)
OGT Office of Greenways & Trails (Florida)
OGT Outgoing Trunk
OGT orogastric tube
OGT Obviously Gay Trait
OGT Order of Good Templars
OGT Original Gangsta Tool
OGT Original Gansta Tool
OGt Old Gutnish (linguistics)
OGT Outlet Gas Temperature
OGT Oversampled Gabor Transform
i need some clarification on the OGT.
Operation Green Troll
(basically, if there’s a dumbass post made anymore, it’ll be OGT’d)
"(Jason Heyward) is like the Grim Reaper -- you know he's going to get you, you just don't know where or when."
by Scott Coleman on May 14, 2010 12:40 PM EDT up reply actions
how is everything you post not greened?
by Mr. Sanchez on May 14, 2010 12:51 PM EDT up reply actions
hey, if you wanna fight
I got Jack Johnson and Tom O’Leary right here waitin’ for ya.
"(Jason Heyward) is like the Grim Reaper -- you know he's going to get you, you just don't know where or when."
by Scott Coleman on May 14, 2010 1:29 PM EDT up reply actions
Overpaided
This is my new favorite word, and I will be using it constantly from now on. That is why your post is rec’d. Well plaided, sir.
"…aren’t worthy enough to hold his (Pujols) ass cheeks apart while Playboy models wipe him with thousand dollar bills after he craps out the cure to whatever previously-incurable disease." by royhobbs 1/7/09
by buzzdeadwax on May 14, 2010 12:34 PM EDT up reply actions
+1
Another uninnocent, elegant fall into the unmagnificent lives of adults...
by Smoltz's Beard on May 14, 2010 12:45 PM EDT up reply actions
Thanks pacgnosis!
Your posts are still the best on TC (no offense to anyone else), and I now feel completely vindicated in my defense of KK and claims of his excellence as a #5 starter.
"Never doubt Derek Lowe's ability to win despite himself."
by EricGreggWasPaidOff on May 14, 2010 2:01 AM EDT reply actions
Excellent post.
Can’t say I’m surprised by the results. Most teams 5th starters are barely major leaguers or long relievers, and KK is, at worst, a successful professional pitcher (even if it was in Japan).
"Baseball is the only major sport that appears backwards in a mirror." ~George Carlin
There’s a reason most teams do that.
Someone needs to point this out – KK was not signed to be serviceable 5th starter. You don’t give those guys $24 million contacts. Hell, even the Yankees don’t do that .
The question isn’t whether rolling KK out there every fifth day is better than Charlie Morton, etc. It’s whether it’s better than Morton every fifth day plus Adam Dunn everyday. Really tough to make that argument, especially when you’re coming off a third place finish and currently reside in the cellar.
Someone......
needs to get a job, a wife, and/or have some kids!
I have a job,
and I am going to have a wife very soon.
The kids, well, that might take some time.
"Yeah, and I have an enchanted jock strap." -- Karl Karlson
by Jacob Peterson on May 14, 2010 11:14 AM EDT up reply actions
Nice Post...
Math was never and will never be my strong point. I commend you for doing all of that math and working with Excel and what not. I like the final outcome of the stats. Stats tend to make everything seem legit to me.
Good job.
This is what happens when I don’t get a chance to check the site for one day. I spend my entire morning sifting through nonsensical posts and it takes me forever to finally get around to something good like this.
Excellent work.
Another uninnocent, elegant fall into the unmagnificent lives of adults...
by Smoltz's Beard on May 14, 2010 11:05 AM EDT reply actions
9 times out of 10, you can just look at the author.
There are so many unread posts on the right side of my screen right now…
This guy wants to suck all the cubs dick can he not have an unbias some what partition reguards
by RWH2 on Apr 5, 2010 10:20 AM CDT
by justincredubil02 on May 14, 2010 11:09 AM EDT up reply actions
Slacker!
"Yeah, and I have an enchanted jock strap." -- Karl Karlson
by Jacob Peterson on May 14, 2010 11:15 AM EDT up reply actions
Obviously, but I get a little OCD with unread threads. Who knows how many troll-ish posts I’m missing out on!
Another uninnocent, elegant fall into the unmagnificent lives of adults...
by Smoltz's Beard on May 14, 2010 11:16 AM EDT up reply actions
Same here...
but I also have no problem z’ing through a bunch of crap that looks insignificant, or with posts by mostly unknowns.
by Mr. Sanchez on May 14, 2010 11:24 AM EDT up reply actions
Yup, that’s basically what I’m doing.
Another uninnocent, elegant fall into the unmagnificent lives of adults...
by Smoltz's Beard on May 14, 2010 11:30 AM EDT up reply actions
Same here. I see “102 New” and I think “Dang…I bet there is some internet goodness in there…”
Sometimes I cave in to the temptation, and other times, I let it pass. Currently, I am in a “I don’t feel like reading retarded posts” mood, so I am letting the temptation pass.
This guy wants to suck all the cubs dick can he not have an unbias some what partition reguards
by RWH2 on Apr 5, 2010 10:20 AM CDT
by justincredubil02 on May 14, 2010 2:36 PM EDT up reply actions
I’m like Ron Burgundy. I will literally read whatever is put in front of me. I’m a glutton for punishment that way.
When you've said Jason Heyward, you've said it all.........
I’m Ron Burgandy?
This guy wants to suck all the cubs dick can he not have an unbias some what partition reguards
by RWH2 on Apr 5, 2010 10:20 AM CDT
by justincredubil02 on May 14, 2010 2:36 PM EDT up reply actions
I love this write up
I was literally discussing this in one of our rosterbation threads. Cavebird made a good point that trading KK now would be selling low but I do think that teams will be interested in his services before the deadline. KK would be successful with any team that hits the ball a.k.a the brewers, angels, diamondbacks, dodgers.
He is overpaid on our squad but if he’s a possible 3rd starter for another team his contract is not that bad to swallow. Maybe it’s not an ideal contract but the trade deadline seems to only be offering bad contract guys and when KK is compared to those he will look better than most options. Moving KK would give us some spending money come next season if Lowe is not moved again.
I’d prefer to try and trade Lowe before KK – simply because KK makes that much less than Derek. I think both are probably equal as to the on-field value that they would provide if they stay here.
This guy wants to suck all the cubs dick can he not have an unbias some what partition reguards
by RWH2 on Apr 5, 2010 10:20 AM CDT
by justincredubil02 on May 14, 2010 2:38 PM EDT up reply actions
I'd love to see the entire list of 177 in rank order...
… it’s probably worthy of a separate post, though; I know it would generate a lot of discussion! Super job.
"I don't think there's any greater free-swinger in the game than Jeff Francoeur" - Tim McCarver, 4/17/2010
agreed
Another uninnocent, elegant fall into the unmagnificent lives of adults...
by Smoltz's Beard on May 14, 2010 12:01 PM EDT up reply actions
+1
"Never doubt Derek Lowe's ability to win despite himself."
by EricGreggWasPaidOff on May 14, 2010 2:39 PM EDT up reply actions

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