2010 NL East Fan Projections: SPs
Introduction
Lately, projecting future performance has become a trendy pastime; it seems like everyone and his uncle has a crazily acronymed projection system (PECOTA, CHONE, MARCEL, ZiPS, CAIRO, and of course BILL JAMES--I wonder what that stands for?). These systems are useful tools, but when it comes right down to it, they are just algorithms based on certain assumptions, and thus not really worth discussing or analyzing.
The system that I find most interesting is FanGraphs' Fan Projections, which isn't really a system so much as a poll. Basically, anyone with a (free) FanGraphs membership can vote on how they think a player will do in 2010. These votes are then combined to give a projection for that player. This is the first year FanGraphs has done this, so there are a few kinks in the system. The most obvious is that some starting pitchers--particularly those also predicted to pitch in relief--have an inflated number of projected starts. For instance, the last time I checked, Joba Chamblerlain was projected to make 39 starts AND 13 relief appearances. Still, the numbers for the most part seem reasonable, and provide a good sense of the consensus for how players will do in the coming season.
In this post, I am going to look at the Fan Projections for all the starting pitchers in the NL East. Here at TC, most of us probably assume that the Braves have the best top-to-bottom rotation in the division. Are we being overly optimistic, or do the FanGraphs voters agree? The answers (and lots of fun graphs) are below.
The Best Rotation in the NL East Is...
First, a note about the process. I compiled a list of SPs in the division who had at least 8 votes (most had far more) and were projected to make at least 10 starts; this ended up being 6 or 7 SPs per team. I then compiled a 5-man "rotation" for each team based on the highest projected WAR* values from among these pitchers. The only exception to this rule was Oliver Perez who, despite projecting as the 6th-most-valuable SP on the Mets, will surely be in their rotation (you don't put a guy making $12M in middle relief).
* For those of you who don't know about WAR, it is basically a measure of how many "wins" a player is worth compared to the average AAA replacement player. Since each win is worth about 10 runs, you can just multiply any WAR value by 10 to get the number of runs a player is worth. A star gets about 6 WAR, a good player gets about 4 WAR, and an average player gets about 2 WAR. Garrett Anderson was worth -1 WAR in 2009.
So, who has the best rotation in the division? I summed up all the WAR values from each team's 5-man rotation, and these are the results:
The Braves' total WAR of 18.3 is a full 2 wins better than the Phillies' total, almost 3 wins better than the Marlins', and more than 4 wins better than the Mets'. The Phillies do have the best projected pitcher in the division (Halladay), but they also have a black hole in their 5th-starter spot. The Braves have only the 3rd-best #1 Starter, but they have the best #3, the best #4, and the best #5. In fact, our 5th starter (Kawakami) projects to be better than the Marlins' 3rd starter (Volstad) or the Nationals' 1st starter (Lannan). That's pretty solid.
Overall, I'd say these projections match up almost exactly with my perceptions of the relative strengths of the NL East rotations. I agree that the Braves clearly have the best staff, followed by the Phillies, Marlins, and Mets in that order, with the Nats a distant 5th.
Of course, a lot can change during the season, between injuries, trades, surprise performances, and call-ups. This is not a prediction; it is only a projection based on how things look right now. For instance, it's certainly possible (though unlikely) that Strasburg comes up early, pitches dominantly, and makes the Nats' rotation the best in the division. Based on the way things stand at the moment, though, I think the fans did a very good job.
Below, I examine the projections for each team in more detail.
Team-by-Team Projections
For each SP in the sample, I list the # of votes cast for that player, plus his projected starts, innings pitched (IP), ERA, and WAR. I also included 4 of the "per 9 innings" rate stats: hits (H/9), walks (BB/9), home runs (HR/9), and strikeouts (K/9).
A few caveats:
- Though each starter is ranked by WAR, I wouldn't worry too much about the order. There's a lot of wiggle room in these numbers, since they aren't, y'know, real.
- I would also not worry too much about the projected number of starts, particularly for the figures that are italicized (italics indicates that the player is also projected to make at least a few relief appearances, thus skewing his Starts total a bit).
- Finally, you should keep in mind that the projections with fewer votes are more likely to be outliers than those with more votes, so if a player has fewer than 15 votes, take his projections with a grain of salt.
Let's start with the hometown team.
Atlanta Braves
| Pitcher | Votes | Starts | IP | ERA | H/9 | BB/9 | HR/9 | K/9 | WAR | |
| SP1 | Tommy Hanson | 78 | 30 | 185 | 3.26 | 8.17 | 3.06 | 0.78 | 9.05 | 4.6 |
| SP2 | Jair Jurrjens | 65 | 34 | 205 | 3.34 | 8.34 | 2.94 | 0.70 | 6.63 | 4.1 |
| SP3 | Derek Lowe | 58 | 32 | 194 | 4.04 | 10.11 | 2.46 | 0.70 | 5.85 | 4.0 |
| SP4 | Tim Hudson | 38 | 29 | 177 | 3.61 | 9.05 | 2.54 | 0.76 | 5.85 | 3.3 |
| SP5 | Kenshin Kawakami | 36 | 35 | 163 | 4.14 | 10.38 | 3.04 | 0.94 | 6.29 | 2.3 |
| Backup | Kris Medlen | 18 | 10 | 78 | 3.92 | 9.81 | 3.23 | 0.81 | 9.12 | 1.3 |
All of these projections seem pretty reasonable to me. Hanson should do well, though he could of course do even better than his projection--the sky's the limit for Tommy. Then again, you can never tell with young pitchers; he could just as easily underperform. Jurrjens' projection seems dead-on, assuming he's able to stay healthy all year (knock on wood). The fans seem to think Lowe will have a nice bounce-back year, which makes sense to me, though at his age, this projection may be a tad high. Hudson's numbers all seem reasonable; the key for him will be staying healthy; if he makes all his starts, he should be in the 4-WAR range as well. I'm optimistic on Kawakami and Medlen; I think they'll both beat their projections, though neither WAR value is far off from what I'd go with.
I combined the projections from the Braves' top 5 pitchers and compared those numbers to the projected league-average numbers. The graph below gives you a sense of how the Braves compare to the averages in 5 rate categories: Innings Pitched per Start, H/9, BB/9, HR/9, and K/9.
To read the graph, keep in mind that closer to the center is always worse and closer to the edges is always better. In other words, the bigger the shaded area, the better. The percentages given are relative to the league average. The Braves' rotation rates as "+8%" in the H/9 category--this means that they project to be 8% better than the league average at preventing hits, not that they will give up 8% more hits.
The one stat that stands out is that the Braves project to be 23% better than the league average at preventing home runs--a phenomenal number. In fact, every Braves starter projects to be below the league average of 1.0 HR/9, and the top 4 project to be well below that number. Ground-ball pitchers + pitcher's park = great home run prevention. Given our lack of strikeout pitchers (aside from Hanson), the ability to prevent HRs will be critical to the success of our staff. The Braves also rate as above average in preventing hits and preventing walks, and about average in IP per start.
Florida Marlins
(I'm going in alphabetical order by location, not in order of projected finish, just FYI):
| Pitcher | Votes | Starts | IP | ERA | H/9 | BB/9 | HR/9 | K/9 | WAR | |
| SP1 | Josh Johnson | 260 | 32 | 195 | 3.37 | 8.40 | 2.58 | 0.69 | 8.40 | 5.2 |
| SP2 | Ricky Nolasco | 265 | 33 | 201 | 3.81 | 9.49 | 2.15 | 1.12 | 8.82 | 4.5 |
| SP3 | Chris Volstad | 17 | 29 | 176 | 4.35 | 10.84 | 3.12 | 1.13 | 6.19 | 2.0 |
| SP4 | Andrew Miller | 13 | 28 | 135 | 4.53 | 11.33 | 4.40 | 0.80 | 7.47 | 1.9 |
| SP5 | Sean West | 12 | 27 | 148 | 4.50 | 11.25 | 3.77 | 1.03 | 7.24 | 1.9 |
| Backup | Anibal Sanchez | 16 | 22 | 137 | 4.27 | 10.64 | 4.34 | 1.05 | 7.69 | 1.5 |
The Marlins have a great 1-2 punch in Johnson and Nolasco, but there is just a huge drop-off after that. All the talk about all the great young Marlins hurlers has mostly been about potential, and most of those guys have yet to really harness their potential. Clearly, the fans doing these projections would have just as hard a time filling out the Marlins' 3-5 slots as the Marlins themselves appear to be having. There's really just not that much difference between Volstad, Miller, West, and Sanchez (another pitcher, Rick Vandenhurk, will likely get some starts, but only has 5 votes, so I didn't include him). All of them are talented, but none have had much success in the majors. Any of those 4 guys could potentially blow away their projection--but then, any of them could also easily end up performing at or below replacement level. If the Marlins are to contend, they likely need at least 1 guy from that group to step up and put up a 4-WAR type season.
Here's the Marlins' graph:
Basically, this is a completely average staff. A bit better than average in HR prevention (thanks largely to whatever that stadium is called now) and strikeout rate, but a bit worse than average in walk rate. This fits with the perception of the Marlins' staff--a bunch of good arms who have trouble with their control.
New York Mets
| Pitcher | Votes | Starts | IP | ERA | H/9 | BB/9 | HR/9 | K/9 | WAR | |
| SP1 | Johan Santana | 89 | 34 | 206 | 3.06 | 7.65 | 2.32 | 0.96 | 8.26 | 4.7 |
| SP2 | Mike Pelfrey | 49 | 33 | 194 | 4.18 | 10.44 | 2.88 | 0.70 | 5.71 | 3.5 |
| SP3 | Jonathon Niese | 13 | 26 | 128 | 4.22 | 10.55 | 3.16 | 0.70 | 7.10 | 2.6 |
| SP4 | John Maine | 37 | 28 | 154 | 4.09 | 10.53 | 3.92 | 1.05 | 7.48 | 1.9 |
| SP5 | Oliver Perez | 103 | 30 | 150 | 4.74 | 11.88 | 4.74 | 1.26 | 8.58 | 1.3 |
| Backup | Kelvim Escobar | 77 | 19 | 83 | 3.80 | 9.54 | 3.14 | 0.76 | 7.59 | 1.4 |
What's interesting here is how badly Maine and Perez project; clearly, fans have little confidence in these two, despite all their talent. Maine is basically the epitome of an average pitcher, while Perez, well, he's a disaster area. The fans actually project Kelvim Escobar to have more WAR than Perez in about half the innings, though I think there is virtually no chance that the Mets give Escobar any starts, due to concerns about his shoulder. Pelfrey and Niese project fairly well mainly because of their decent walk rates and excellent HR rates (thanks, Citi Field!). As for Santana, he is certainly capable of surpassing these projections, but given his health, I think it's fair to project him to have a very good, but just short of dominant, year.
Here is the Mets' graph:
The Mets' main strength is their HR prevention, though A) they aren't nearly as good as the Braves in this department, and B) much of that strength is due to Citi Field. The Mets also have the worst projected walk rate in the division--a terrible 12% below league average. I guess that's what happens when you let Oliver Perez make 30 starts. Classic Minaya.
Philadelphia Phillies
| Pitcher | Votes | Starts | IP | ERA | H/9 | BB/9 | HR/9 | K/9 | WAR | |
| SP1 | Roy Halladay | 211 | 37 | 223 | 2.83 | 7.06 | 1.37 | 0.81 | 7.83 | 6.4 |
| SP2 | Cole Hamels | 62 | 35 | 203 | 3.64 | 9.09 | 2.26 | 1.15 | 7.94 | 3.8 |
| SP3 | Joe Blanton | 49 | 32 | 197 | 4.20 | 10.51 | 2.70 | 1.19 | 6.76 | 2.7 |
| SP4 | J.A. Happ | 39 | 31 | 184 | 3.96 | 9.88 | 3.23 | 1.13 | 6.95 | 2.3 |
| SP5 | Jose Contreras | 9 | 20 | 92 | 4.50 | 11.25 | 3.33 | 0.98 | 6.95 | 1.0 |
| Backup | Jamie Moyer | 23 | 28 | 121 | 4.91 | 12.27 | 2.60 | 1.41 | 5.28 | 0.7 |
| Backup | Kyle Kendrick | 11 | 20 | 89 | 4.35 | 10.92 | 3.03 | 1.01 | 4.85 | 0.7 |
The Phils have an excellent top 4, headlined by the amazing Mr. Halladay (check out that projected walk rate--very Madduxian). I think the projections for all 4 are spot-on. Things get a bit dicey, however, in the "battle" for the 5th spot. Basically, they have a bunch of terrible options. Seriously, any time 2010 Jose Contreras is the best of 3 available options, you're in bad shape. They'll probably end up going with Moyer until they can't take it any more, and then they'll probably call up some middling prospect from AAA. Kendrick is nothing special (I actually think his projection is *optimistic*), and Contreras belongs in the pen. The Phillies have to be considered the favorites in the division, but they do have some glaring holes (the bullpen is another).
Here's the Phillies' graph:
Despite the lack of an adequate 5th starter, the Phillies have a good staff overall; they project to give up some HRs, but part of that is due to their ballpark. They're about average in K/9 and IP/S, better than average in H/9, and project to be a fantastic 17% better than average at preventing walks, thanks mainly to Halladay and Hamels. Considering their HR-friendly ballpark, preventing baserunners is very important, so Phillies fans should feel good about these projections.
Washington Nationals
Finally, for the sake of completeness, here are the Nationals' projections:
| Pitcher | Votes | Starts | IP | ERA | H/9 | BB/9 | HR/9 | K/9 | WAR | |
| SP1 | John Lannan | 183 | 33 | 196 | 4.09 | 10.19 | 2.89 | 0.96 | 4.73 | 2.2 |
| SP2 | Garret Mock | 19 | 31 | 135 | 4.53 | 11.33 | 3.93 | 0.87 | 7.73 | 2.0 |
| SP3 | Jason Marquis | 71 | 33 | 194 | 4.55 | 11.37 | 3.48 | 0.88 | 4.59 | 1.9 |
| SP4 | Chien-ming Wang | 26 | 23 | 109 | 4.21 | 10.57 | 2.97 | 0.66 | 5.61 | 1.9 |
| SP5 | Craig Stammen | 9 | 28 | 128 | 4.71 | 11.81 | 2.39 | 1.13 | 5.84 | 1.7 |
| Backup | Livan Hernandez | 17 | 35 | 161 | 5.42 | 13.53 | 3.13 | 1.17 | 4.64 | 1.0 |
| Backup | Scott Olsen | 15 | 24 | 147 | 4.79 | 11.51 | 3.49 | 1.41 | 6.61 | 1.0 |
Let's see... The Nats have 5 guys who project as #4 or #5 starters. Well, at least they have good depth! The sad thing is that they are likely to give Livan and Olsen a bunch of starts; that's a terrible idea, though, as both those guys are just terrible, and don't project to be better in 2010. The one source of upside in this list is Wang, who could certainly have a big comeback. The fans don't seem to think that will happen (neither do I), though his projection is decent. If he gets 30 starts, he's probably their best pitcher in terms of WAR. Lannan is what he is: a decent pitcher, but not really more than a #3 at best. I find it interesting that Mock and Marquis project to be so similar, especially since Mock might not even make the rotation and Marquis just got $15M to be their "ace." Barring a trade, Marquis' playoff streak will be ending this year.
Here is the Nats' graph:
Wow, that is ugly. Well below-average in 4 of the 5 categories, including an abysmal 23% below average in K rate. Aside from Garret Mock, none of their pitchers projects to strike out even 6 batters per 9 innings (the league average is projected to be 7.2 K/9). That puts a lot of pressure on a defense, which is not something you really want to do when your first baseman is Adam Dunn. The one bright spot here is the HR prevention number, though again park effects influence that somewhat. (We sure do have a lot of extreme pitchers' parks in the NL East--I wonder how many HRs the Braves would hit in another division.)
Wrap-up
According to the fans at FanGraphs, the Braves have the best rotation in the NL East, at least on paper. Do you agree? How would you rank the rotations in the division? Which players do you think will outperform their projections? Which will underperform? Are these fan projections better or worse than the other major projection systems, like CHONE or Bill James? I'd be interested to hear what the TC community has to say.
This FanPost does not express the views or opinions of Talking Chop.
108 comments
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Comments
I might be bias'd
but i dun see n e one messing with us 1 – 5 i mean even if someone gets hurt we got medlin in the pen just itching to crack the rotation, the only question mark to me is Lowe and with the offseason i feel like he def. has something to prove. i mean it has to hurt to be in every trade rumor possible and turned downed so many times.
clearly the best
I predict that not one of our starters has an ERA above 4…
What’s more…knowing that the pitcher is gonna give the offense a chance to win games every game is huge. None of our pitchers inspire back of the mind thoughts that the offense has to produce 8 runs to win a game. Even the fact that we don’t have a true ace either, is probably a good thing. Every day the offense can show up with the same attitude – one run likely won’t be enough but we won’t need to change our game to aim for 8.
About Citifield...
It actually gave up more homers last year than Citizen’s Bank Park. Let’s no go off calling it an extreme pitcher’s park yet, despite what the dimensions led us to believe when it opened. You could argue that those extra taters were due to the Mutts’ devastated rotation, and there might be something to that, but we won’t know for another year or two, so let’s hold off calling it pitcher-friendly yet.
Wait...
Citi Field allowed more HRs than Citizens Bank Bandbox did??? No way.
Omar Minaya is my hero!
by Scott Coleman on Feb 27, 2010 3:28 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Citifield didn't depress HR rates at all last year, it was actually slightly HR friendly.
The Mets just couldn’t hit any HR’s, and the MSM got confused and blamed it on the new park. The only guy who really suffered with the new park was Wright.
Pinella: Where th f*ck was that pitch at?
Ump: Lou, don't you know that you're not supposed to end a sentence with a preposition?
Pinella: Where the f*ck was that pitch at, a$$h*le?
by Stephen Schmidt on Feb 28, 2010 3:03 PM EST up reply actions
Wow
- Citi Field: 1.057 HR Park Factor
- Citizens Bank Park: 1.005 HR Park Factor
- PF: ((homeHRS + homeHRA)/(homeG)) / ((roadHRS + roadHRA)/(roadG)
For comparison:
- Yankees Stadium: 1.261 HR Park Factor
- Turner Field: 0.861 HR Park Factor
- Progressive Field: 0.670 HR Park Factor
Park Factors also seem to fluctuate. In 2007, Citizens Bank Park was #1 with a 1.418 HR PF and in 2008, Turner Field was #12 with a 1.014.
damnit
Messed up my numbers… Citi Field is #12 in 2009 and Citizens is #16. Yankees Stadium is #1, Turner Field is #26, and Progressive is #30…
Thanks for the #s
I guess I got too caught up in the “David Wright can’t hit HRs because Citi is soooo huge” story.
"Yeah, and I have an enchanted jock strap." -- Karl Karlson
by Jacob Peterson on Feb 28, 2010 10:43 AM EST up reply actions
Actually
I think his power absconded with one of Tiger’s concubines or something, because he didn’t hit AWAY from Citi either. He had 5 homers each on the road and at home last year, much to the chagrin of my fantasy team.
I think his power absconded with one of Tiger’s concubines or something.
I’m definitely giving that answer to any question I get asked today.
"Hey Fat Kid...the monster is right behind you! RUNNNN!!" -The Host
by bwellnjonesco on Mar 1, 2010 11:14 AM EST up reply actions
I know this for a fact, though
Chipper hit two balls in Citi that would have gone out of nearly any other ball-park. Those same balls at Shea would have given him 20 HRs last year instead of 18.
Good point, thanks.
"Yeah, and I have an enchanted jock strap." -- Karl Karlson
by Jacob Peterson on Feb 28, 2010 10:41 AM EST up reply actions
Great article.
I really dig your work.
Honestly, I think it’s a toss up between the Phillies and Braves and I think it even depends on what type of WAR you’re looking at. The Braves are so good at limiting HR’s, I like their chances to best the Phillies in fWAR, but the Phillies’ defense is so much better than the Braves’, I’ll take the Phillies in rWAR.
http://www.capitolavenueclub.com/
Well, yes.
That’s a good point. Of course, I prefer fWAR, precisely b/c of the greater relative value of HR prevention vs. balls-in-play run prevention.
"Yeah, and I have an enchanted jock strap." -- Karl Karlson
by Jacob Peterson on Feb 28, 2010 10:45 AM EST up reply actions
Wow. 92%?
I do think we have the best rotation in the division, but man, we are biased. If you post this on any Phillies’ blog, I can almost guarantee that most of the votes would be for the Phillies.
The only time the Mets win is in the offseason.
oh please
you could go over to any Phillies blog and type the question: “Which team plays closest to downtown Atlanta?” and they’d still vote for the Phillies. There’s no reasoning with those people.
Omar Minaya is my hero!
by Scott Coleman on Feb 27, 2010 5:37 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Take an unbiased look at it then with statistics. Halladay is better than any pitcher we have, but whoever our #2 will be is at worst even with Hamels, and our 3-4-5 is much better then Blanton, Happ, and whomever their fifth starter is.
Yeah.
If this was, “Who has the best starter?” or even “Who has the best top 2”, I would go with the Phillies. But their complete lack of a competent #5 gives us the edge overall.
"Yeah, and I have an enchanted jock strap." -- Karl Karlson
by Jacob Peterson on Feb 28, 2010 10:46 AM EST up reply actions
Actually...
you’re prob right about the poll, but this was fanshotted at the Good Phight and most of the commenters agree with the article.
"If I have asthma, they won't let me scuba. And if I can’t scuba, then what’s this all been about?? What am I working toward??"
Awesome job.
I wish I could utilize graphs like you. I have to compensate by using big words like “utilize.”
This article needs to be posted somewhere where everyone can see it, not just Braves fans. A lot of folks underestimate our rotation since we lost Vazquez, but if they actually looked at our rotation, they would see that even our #4 and #5 starters could easily be another team’s #2 and #3 starters. We clearly have the deepest rotation in the NL, and a lot of people discount that fact since we don’t have a “true ace” (even though Hanson, Hudson, and Jurrjens have the potential to be one).
What I love about our rotation is that every night, no matter whose turn it is in the rotation, we have a great chance to win.
The third-base umpire ran into the outfield and retrieved the biggest chunk. "It's a f***in' potato."
by alligatorimpersonator on Feb 27, 2010 5:23 PM EST reply actions
I don't think most would put too much stock in it though.
The fact that this is based on fan projections alone really makes it far less credible. I think the Atlanta fanbase has a generally positive view of the franchise at this point, and it seems to be reflected by every one of the 5 being rated as more valuable than they were last season. Mets fans now are about as bitter as pessimistic as they come, I’d have to think that was reflected in the numbers for guys like Santana, Perez, and Maine. Marlins fans generally don’t exist, so I’d have to think that with those results you get a much less biased opinion.
Pinella: Where th f*ck was that pitch at?
Ump: Lou, don't you know that you're not supposed to end a sentence with a preposition?
Pinella: Where the f*ck was that pitch at, a$$h*le?
by Stephen Schmidt on Feb 28, 2010 3:13 PM EST up reply actions
Excellent work though, really a good read.
Pinella: Where th f*ck was that pitch at?
Ump: Lou, don't you know that you're not supposed to end a sentence with a preposition?
Pinella: Where the f*ck was that pitch at, a$$h*le?
by Stephen Schmidt on Feb 28, 2010 3:14 PM EST up reply actions
Actually,
“Fans” here just means “baseball fans,” not fans of that particular team.
Most prominent players have many more projections from “non-fans” than “fans”. If you’re interested, you can go to any player’s page on FanGraphs and click the “Projections” tab, and it will break down projections from fans of that player’s team vs. projections from non-fans.
As for the relative biases of the fanbases, you’re probably right… But then the Braves fans have good reason to expect better performances from most of their SPs, and the Mets, well, they’re the Mets. I wouldn’t rate any of their pitchers better than they were projected, either.
"Yeah, and I have an enchanted jock strap." -- Karl Karlson
by Jacob Peterson on Feb 28, 2010 4:25 PM EST up reply actions
I realize that, but in most cases fans tend to vote for their favorite team and cherry pick the rest of the players out there.
I think in general teams like the Braves and Mariners that performed quite well last year will have more optimistic projections than teams like the Mets and Cubs that shat the bed last year from the actual fans of that team.
Pinella: Where th f*ck was that pitch at?
Ump: Lou, don't you know that you're not supposed to end a sentence with a preposition?
Pinella: Where the f*ck was that pitch at, a$$h*le?
by Stephen Schmidt on Feb 28, 2010 4:32 PM EST up reply actions
There is some cherry-picking, but...
if you look at the fan vs. non-fan splits, there’s not much difference at all. And for the Mets, anyway, what hometown bias there is appears to be optimism, not pessimism. For instance, Maine projects to 1.9 WAR overall, but 2.1 WAR among Mets fans. Oliver Perez is 1.3 overall, 1.9 from Mets fans. Santana is 4.7 overall, 4.9 from Mets fans.
"Yeah, and I have an enchanted jock strap." -- Karl Karlson
by Jacob Peterson on Feb 28, 2010 4:40 PM EST up reply actions
You should go post this on the other NL East team sites
I’m gonna guess the Mets fans will applaud you for good work.
The Phillies fans will go to any length to prove you wrong.
The Nationals fans will start talking about something besides baseball.
And you won’t get any response from the Marlins fans…cause there aren’t any.
oh and rec’d
Omar Minaya is my hero!
And you won’t get any response from the Marlins fans…cause there aren’t any.
not true…i swear to god I saw one once…i was gonna take a picture of me and him as proof but my camera magically broke and i couldnt get the proof..also there was no one with me at the time to verify my story…but i swear to god i saw him. He was really tall.
Heyward,Hanson,and Shaffer r ready now!! Why do you think they havent signed the "right handed bat"?
by fatazfoot on Jan 7, 2009 8:59 PM EST
Haha +1
Omar Minaya is my hero!
by Scott Coleman on Feb 27, 2010 8:25 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
I think you saw Billy the Marlin.
He can’t be counted as a “fan,” since he’s paid by the team.
"Yeah, and I have an enchanted jock strap." -- Karl Karlson
by Jacob Peterson on Feb 28, 2010 10:49 AM EST up reply actions
Nice work
However it’s really doubtful that Contreras will be the Phillies’ #5. It’s been pretty clearly telegraphed that he’s bound for the bullpen to fill a Chan Ho Park-ish role.
Not that the alternatives are any better, as you’ve established, but… full disclosure, accuracy, etc.
http://www.thegoodphight.com
Oh, yeah, absolutely.
He won’t start the year in the rotation. But he’s projected for starts and their #5 is not established. I took a kind of “best case scenario” approach for each team so that they would maximize their rotation’s WAR.
"Yeah, and I have an enchanted jock strap." -- Karl Karlson
by Jacob Peterson on Feb 28, 2010 10:50 AM EST up reply actions
elder care
Jamie Moyer has also “broken” pretty much every projection system there is. Of course, it’s far, far more likely that he’s awful than that he’s adequate, but he’s defied expectations before.
Not that you want to bank on being pleasantly surprised… or agree to a two year contract with a 46 year old. Stupid…
http://www.thegoodphight.com
by WholeCamels on Feb 28, 2010 11:01 AM EST up reply actions
really doubt KK makes 35 starts. even if he does only pitching 160ish innings in 35 starts is kinda bad
Yeah,
As I said in the post, the Starts # are kinda wonky for guys (like KK) who are projected to make relief appearances as well. I’d put him down for 32 personally, and a 170-180 innings.
"Yeah, and I have an enchanted jock strap." -- Karl Karlson
by Jacob Peterson on Feb 28, 2010 10:51 AM EST up reply actions
sooo....
On AA, they have an interesting thread up asking people what an NL East All-Star team would look like. One guy listed his starting 5, which happened to include Tommy and JJ. Another poster responded with this:
I like Hanson alot, but I don’t think Jurrjens would even make my all NL east AAA roster.
Looking closely at his stats, it seems like he was one of the luckiest pitchers in baseball last year as far as his W/L and ERA were concerned. I’d take raw upside guys like West and Strasburg over him.
I know the stats have been saying for a long time that JJ is lucky but come on…this is like the schneider > mccann (better defense) guy….
"If I have asthma, they won't let me scuba. And if I can’t scuba, then what’s this all been about?? What am I working toward??"
Wow, that is crazy.
Jurrjens is not a strikeout guy, but he’s been undeniably effective. Maybe not as good as his ERA would suggest, but still.
"Yeah, and I have an enchanted jock strap." -- Karl Karlson
by Jacob Peterson on Feb 28, 2010 4:26 PM EST up reply actions
Schnieder>McCann is nothing like that.
The Jurrjens argument is being backed up by actual stats, which suggest that he really was very lucky as far as traditional stats went last year. Keep in mind as well that the article is only considering next season, so age is largely irrelevent to that argument. I personally would take Hudson, Hanson, and Lowe from the Braves over him. It’s not that he’s not a K guy, it’s that he’s not really a GB% guy or BB/9 guy either and much of his value seems to be derived from a good HR/AO ratio and a low BABIP. If he continues to have that success for a few years I’d likely rethink that, but right now it’s just too small a sample size for my liking.
Pinella: Where th f*ck was that pitch at?
Ump: Lou, don't you know that you're not supposed to end a sentence with a preposition?
Pinella: Where the f*ck was that pitch at, a$$h*le?
by Stephen Schmidt on Feb 28, 2010 4:39 PM EST up reply actions
First off, the guy wasn’t saying Jair was just lucky, he was saying he wouldn’t take him on the “AAA roster,” which is just ridiculous. His career FIP is 3.75, which is well above average.
Second, Jair’s HR/AB ratio is definitely sustainable. Look at his minor league numbers. There is zero reason to think that will change significantly. He’s just good at preventing HRs—we don’t know why, but it’s a demonstrated skill over 4 seasons in the majors and minors. As for his BABIP, it wasn’t that low last season (.273). Jair won’t repeat his 2.60 ERA in all likelihood, but he’ll still be one of the top 20 SPs in the league.
"Yeah, and I have an enchanted jock strap." -- Karl Karlson
by Jacob Peterson on Feb 28, 2010 4:49 PM EST up reply actions
I'm pretty sure I know what I was saying, as it was my comment.
All that means is that I definitely feel he’s not among the top 5 starters in the NL east, and probably won’t be among the top ten (although i said “I don’t think” because its fairly close in my opinion). That’s not saying he’s a bad pitcher because he’s clearly not, I just don’t feel he’s anywhere near elite. Looking at his peripherals from last season leads me to the opinion that he had some very nice luck attributing to his ERA (and also played in one of the best HR supressing parks in baseball), and his rate stats indicate he should have had a line much closer to his 2008 (which was still good just not elite). I personally think both Hudson and Lowe are being somewhat underrated by these projections, and given the choice I’d take either one of them as well as Hanson over Jurrjens if we were talking about one season only.
Pinella: Where th f*ck was that pitch at?
Ump: Lou, don't you know that you're not supposed to end a sentence with a preposition?
Pinella: Where the f*ck was that pitch at, a$$h*le?
by Stephen Schmidt on Feb 28, 2010 11:20 PM EST up reply actions
Keep in mind that this post also came out right after the reports of his shoulder issues.
He’s the type that could be affected by a slight tweak to his mechanics, as he doesn’t really have dominant stuff to begin with. Losing some control would certainly hurt him.
Pinella: Where th f*ck was that pitch at?
Ump: Lou, don't you know that you're not supposed to end a sentence with a preposition?
Pinella: Where the f*ck was that pitch at, a$$h*le?
by Stephen Schmidt on Feb 28, 2010 11:40 PM EST up reply actions
So you wouldn’t take Jair on your AAA roster either? That’s bull. I can’t wait till JJ continues to prove the haters wrong.
You clearly didn't even go read the post.
The “AAA roster” as that post would refer to would be the 6th to 10th best starters in the NL east, not a teams actual AAA roster.
Pinella: Where th f*ck was that pitch at?
Ump: Lou, don't you know that you're not supposed to end a sentence with a preposition?
Pinella: Where the f*ck was that pitch at, a$$h*le?
by Stephen Schmidt on Mar 1, 2010 1:25 AM EST up reply actions
I would like you to name 10 better pitchers in the NLE than JJ right now.
Even though I agree that he outpitched his periphs and that he was a tad lucky last season, and should be due for some regression this season, he is STILL one of the top pitchers in the game, let alone the NLE.
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Mar 1, 2010 9:02 AM EST up reply actions
Yeah I really think Jair Jurrjens has earned the benefit of the doubt insofar as he shouldn’t be written off as a fluke until he actually does “fall off the cliff,” Chien Ming Wang style. And there’s a good chance that’ll never happen.
http://www.thegoodphight.com
Agreed.
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Mar 1, 2010 9:15 AM EST up reply actions
I listed nine who I would take over him there.
Santana, Halladay, Hamels, Hanson, Hudson, Lowe, Johnson, Nolasco are all no-brainers for me based on track record. I’d take Strasburg and West based on their stuff and minor league track record. As I stated over there, Jurrjens would definitely be the other guy in my top ten if he had no shoulder issues, but they are there. He loses alot of his value if he’s not pitching the amount of innings he has the last two years, and his success is largley based on his control which could definitely be affected by a shoulder issue. Keep in mind that the post wasn’t a who would you want going forward poll, it was only pertaining to 2010 (and I think 2010 will be much closer to 2008 than 2009, and likely with him missing a start here and there that cuts back his innings total).
Pinella: Where th f*ck was that pitch at?
Ump: Lou, don't you know that you're not supposed to end a sentence with a preposition?
Pinella: Where the f*ck was that pitch at, a$$h*le?
by Stephen Schmidt on Mar 1, 2010 10:14 AM EST up reply actions
Just to clarify, West is the guy I had moving into that 10 spot when Jurrjens shoulder issues popped up.
Pinella: Where th f*ck was that pitch at?
Ump: Lou, don't you know that you're not supposed to end a sentence with a preposition?
Pinella: Where the f*ck was that pitch at, a$$h*le?
by Stephen Schmidt on Mar 1, 2010 10:16 AM EST up reply actions
I think having Lowe, Nolasco, Hudson, Hamels, Strasberg and West there instead of JJ is a mistake – based on 2010 projections.
And you can ask people around here, I have been saying that JJ is going to regress and that we need to temper our expectations of him, but to say that he is not one of the top 10 pitchers in the NLE, and that some kid who has never pitched before or that Lowe and Hudson are better right now than JJ is flawed.
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Mar 1, 2010 10:36 AM EST up reply actions
I don't see how you'd say that about Nolasco, he's projected to be more valuable in less innings by every system.
Lowe is generally projected to be about the exact same value per inning pitched as JJ (as he is in this post as well), and I feel more confident in Lowes health than JJ’s. Hudson also falls in that same boat, his value per inning pitched is only slightly less than JJ’s but I feel people are being slightly conservative with their projections of him. Even with Hamels “bad” year last year, his value was nearly the same as JJ’s and he did so in 22 less innings. All those guys have a strong case to be in front of JJ regardless of his shoulder, and his shoulder makes it easy for me.
Strasburg is impossible to back up with stats, but I think if you asked the question around here last year many people would have taken Hanson over him in this type of discussion. JJ’s 2008 and 2009 were very similar, and Stras is a very similar prospect to Hanson, so it really isn’t all that mind boggling that I’d prefer him. That leaves West, who as I said would not be in front of him if JJ had no health issues. He does though, and I think West is going to be really good, so I think he may be more valueable than JJ this season.
Pinella: Where th f*ck was that pitch at?
Ump: Lou, don't you know that you're not supposed to end a sentence with a preposition?
Pinella: Where the f*ck was that pitch at, a$$h*le?
by Stephen Schmidt on Mar 1, 2010 11:03 AM EST up reply actions
That should be Hanson over Jurrjens in the 2nd paragraph.
Pinella: Where th f*ck was that pitch at?
Ump: Lou, don't you know that you're not supposed to end a sentence with a preposition?
Pinella: Where the f*ck was that pitch at, a$$h*le?
by Stephen Schmidt on Mar 1, 2010 11:04 AM EST up reply actions
I don’t know about that…while Hanson was regarded as the future of the rotation, I don’t think a majority of even a plurality would have had Hanson above JJ last season.
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Mar 1, 2010 11:23 AM EST up reply actions
I just spent a few minutes searching for some sort of player or rotation preview from last season, but nothing really gets into that.
The feeling I did get from alot of comments last offseason (rotation preview, season preview, etc.) was that most felt that JJ was a solid middle of the rotation type. That is exactly what I’m saying he is, and his 2009 peripherals were almost identical to his 2008 numbers which would make me wonder why that belief should have changed.
Pinella: Where th f*ck was that pitch at?
Ump: Lou, don't you know that you're not supposed to end a sentence with a preposition?
Pinella: Where the f*ck was that pitch at, a$$h*le?
by Stephen Schmidt on Mar 1, 2010 12:09 PM EST up reply actions
In the NL East
There aren’t enough pitchers for you to say a solid middle of the rotation type isn’t one of the ten best pitchers.
I think i could make a case for JJ as one of the top 50 starters in all of MLB, though I’d need to look carefully. Certainly, he was like 21st among all qualified last year in terms of FIP. Just because he had a rather lucky season when you compare his ERA to his FIP doesn’t mean he’s bad.
I've never once said he was bad, I've actually repeatedly said quite the opposite.
I’ve simply said I feel he’d be in the bottom of my top ten in the NL east when healthy, and with his shoulder situation I’d drop him from the list.
Pinella: Where th f*ck was that pitch at?
Ump: Lou, don't you know that you're not supposed to end a sentence with a preposition?
Pinella: Where the f*ck was that pitch at, a$$h*le?
by Stephen Schmidt on Mar 1, 2010 2:17 PM EST up reply actions
I'm a bit skeptical
When you’re obviously a stats-oriented guy, and yet with limited/non-existent prior data, you’re saying you’ll take Strasburg and West ahead of him, while Hamels is, at best, arguable. Derek Lowe managed to have a career year in a contract season at age 35, but other than that, he hasn’t been as good as JJ in 8 years, and is 37 years old, but you say you’d take him ahead of JJ.
I don't think I wrote that clearly enough.
Strasburg and West would normally be behind him on my list, but with JJ’s shoulder concerns I feel like they’d move in front of him. If JJ derived his value from great stuff, I’d likely be less concerned. His value is largely due to the amount of innings he pitches, so a nagging injury that may cause him to lose 20-30 innings over the course of the season would make him much less valuable.
As far as Lowe, I feel like he’s likely to have a major bounceback this year. He’s a GB pitcher, and his GB% last year was a career low that was nearly 10 percent lower than his career average outside of 2009. His BABIP was also ridiculously high at .330, which is way out of line with the rest of his career. I honestly think he’s being underrated here due to some poor luck in 2009.
Pinella: Where th f*ck was that pitch at?
Ump: Lou, don't you know that you're not supposed to end a sentence with a preposition?
Pinella: Where the f*ck was that pitch at, a$$h*le?
by Stephen Schmidt on Mar 1, 2010 2:32 PM EST up reply actions
I guess I’m not as concerned about the man’s shoulder. There was no structural damage. Even after he was told to rest for a few days before throwing again, I’d rate him as only the third biggest health concern in our starting rotation, behind Hudson and KK.
Is there any reason Hudson or KK would be injury risks?
I realize Hudson is coming off tommy john, but has there been any reports of issues with his elbow that I missed? I can honestly say I wasn’t aware of any injury concerns with Kawakami.
Pinella: Where th f*ck was that pitch at?
Ump: Lou, don't you know that you're not supposed to end a sentence with a preposition?
Pinella: Where the f*ck was that pitch at, a$$h*le?
by Stephen Schmidt on Mar 1, 2010 2:59 PM EST up reply actions
The issue with KK is that he’s an older pitcher who’s not used to pitching the innings load in MLB. The Braves worked really hard to keep his innings total down last year, and that will be the case again this year. And, in general, Japanese leagues can be really abusive to pitcher arms.
Hudson is as big a risk as anyone coming back from a major surgery is. He did have some issues during his rehab, like a groin pull. When you’re unable to put any strain on muscles that take a lot of punishment for 9 months, you can tweak a lot of stuff coming back. I don’t know if his elbow is the biggest concern, it’s shoulders and quad muscles that haven’t quite readjusted.
And finally, it’s not that either of these guys has a huge issue-that’s just how minor I’m convinced this JJ arm problem is right now.
im confused
you mention KK is not used to the innings of a MLB season, but then say that Japanese leagues abuse the arms of their pitchers. The reason KK isnt used to the inning is the use of a 6 man rotation in Japan, so how was his arm abused in Japan. I dont want to sound glib but i fail to see the connection between those two points.
Heyward,Hanson,and Shaffer r ready now!! Why do you think they havent signed the "right handed bat"?
by fatazfoot on Jan 7, 2009 8:59 PM EST
I do take a slight issue with your argument
Sure, Jurrjens’ stuff isn’t quite Doc Halladay’s, but that changeup is pretty damn good and his fastball is a plus pitch as well. It isn’t as if we are talking about Jon Garland here, or some average innings eater.
Furthermore, there are plenty of pitchers with great “stuff” who never are great due to injury. See Bedard, Erik. Would you find Jurrjens’ case more concerning than Bedard’s, even pre-lost season Bedard? I wouldn’t, but that is my own personal opinion.
by Andy Braves Fan on Mar 1, 2010 5:18 PM EST up reply actions
Maybe "stuff" wasn't exactly the term I should have used there.
JJ is a guy that seems to rely on pitching to a location that allows the batter to make poor contact with the ball (at this point at least), rather than relying on excessive movement or velocity. I think a sinker/2 seamer groundball type who doesn’t get lots of K’s could get by slightly better than a guy whose arsenal tends to produce more flyballs without many K’s.
Pinella: Where th f*ck was that pitch at?
Ump: Lou, don't you know that you're not supposed to end a sentence with a preposition?
Pinella: Where the f*ck was that pitch at, a$$h*le?
by Stephen Schmidt on Mar 1, 2010 6:54 PM EST up reply actions
That's assuming the shoulder issue affects his mechanics.
Posted that before I finished typing.
Pinella: Where th f*ck was that pitch at?
Ump: Lou, don't you know that you're not supposed to end a sentence with a preposition?
Pinella: Where the f*ck was that pitch at, a$$h*le?
by Stephen Schmidt on Mar 1, 2010 6:56 PM EST up reply actions
That is fair
in terms of effecting his mechanics. However, I think JJ is, or at least can be, more than just a location pitcher. I think that his ability to locate makes him a potentially great pitcher, but his pitches are improving as well.
by Andy Braves Fan on Mar 3, 2010 10:43 AM EST up reply actions
a majority of a plurality, justin….really?
Heyward,Hanson,and Shaffer r ready now!! Why do you think they havent signed the "right handed bat"?
by fatazfoot on Jan 7, 2009 8:59 PM EST
That was supposed to be “or” not “of”.
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Mar 1, 2010 2:50 PM EST up reply actions
See, by the time you got to Hamels
You’re already stretching. FIP over the last two seasons:
Hamels: 3.72, 3.72
Jurrjens: 3.59, 3.68
What’s this about peripherals?
xFIP
Hamels: 3.63, 3.69
Jurrjens: 3.96, 4.34
tRA
Hamels: 4.10, 4.01
Jurrjens: 4.45, 4.54
Hamels has a better K% and a better BB%, he only lags behind in HR/AO (which would be somewhat closer if they both played in a neutral ballpark.
Pinella: Where th f*ck was that pitch at?
Ump: Lou, don't you know that you're not supposed to end a sentence with a preposition?
Pinella: Where the f*ck was that pitch at, a$$h*le?
by Stephen Schmidt on Mar 1, 2010 2:05 PM EST up reply actions
And Hamels FIP would likely be better if the HR rates were park adjusted.
FIP only account for league adjustments.
Pinella: Where th f*ck was that pitch at?
Ump: Lou, don't you know that you're not supposed to end a sentence with a preposition?
Pinella: Where the f*ck was that pitch at, a$$h*le?
by Stephen Schmidt on Mar 1, 2010 2:07 PM EST up reply actions
Didn't we already determind in this thread
That Citizen’s Bank was practically HR-neutral last year?
But Jurrjens doesn't play in a HR neutral park.
He plays in one of the best HR supressing parks in the majors.
Pinella: Where th f*ck was that pitch at?
Ump: Lou, don't you know that you're not supposed to end a sentence with a preposition?
Pinella: Where the f*ck was that pitch at, a$$h*le?
by Stephen Schmidt on Mar 1, 2010 2:11 PM EST up reply actions
For 2009
In 2008, they were practically the same. Besides, there’s no way to completely isolate the effects of a team’s hitting and pitching from those calculations. The Braves had an elite pitching staff and very little power last year, and it makes Turner Field look less friendly than it was.
The Braves and Phillies lineups don't really affect the outcomes, as park factor takes into account both home and road performance.
PF: ((homeRS + homeRA)/(homeG)) / ((roadRS + roadRA)/(roadG))
There is the formula they used, which simply takes into account what teams do at a park as compared to the average of what that same team does everywhere else. How much power a given lineup has is completely irrelevent to park factors. It should also be noted that 2008 is the only season where the park factors for those two parks is even close, so it appears to be more of an outlier.
Pinella: Where th f*ck was that pitch at?
Ump: Lou, don't you know that you're not supposed to end a sentence with a preposition?
Pinella: Where the f*ck was that pitch at, a$$h*le?
by Stephen Schmidt on Mar 1, 2010 2:23 PM EST up reply actions
Don’t you see the inherent impossibility of completely removing the impact of the home team? It should be rather striking that Turner Field, which hasn’t made any significant alterations since the start of the 1996 season, can go from 12th to 26th in Park Factor over one season? The park did not change, the team did.
12th was an outlier, and really isn't a good representation of the park.
Check the year by year data and you’ll find that 2008 was the only time this decade that Turner field has been in the top half of the league (thats as far back as the data goes). It generally sits in the 20ish range, so 26th is probably slightly low for it. Either way, the teams lack of power is corrected for in the formula (and since the Braves play 81 games at home sample size shouldn’t be an issue either).
Pinella: Where th f*ck was that pitch at?
Ump: Lou, don't you know that you're not supposed to end a sentence with a preposition?
Pinella: Where the f*ck was that pitch at, a$$h*le?
by Stephen Schmidt on Mar 1, 2010 2:40 PM EST up reply actions
I'd love to know where you're getting those tRA numbers
And I just realized that Fangraphs has rescaled and is using tERA.
tERA:
Hamels: 4.15, 4.12
Jurrjens: 4.16, 3.73
tERA is not tRA
tRA is found at statcorner, and is a slightly different formula.
Pinella: Where th f*ck was that pitch at?
Ump: Lou, don't you know that you're not supposed to end a sentence with a preposition?
Pinella: Where the f*ck was that pitch at, a$$h*le?
by Stephen Schmidt on Mar 1, 2010 2:10 PM EST up reply actions
Like pacgnosis said
the main thing I was pointing to was the “AAA roster” comment
"If I have asthma, they won't let me scuba. And if I can’t scuba, then what’s this all been about?? What am I working toward??"
Total garbage
His FIP last year was jut outside the top 20 of all qualified pitchers. Maybe xFIP tells a different story, but, well, it’s not a completely viable stat yet. It’s less developed and meaning than xBABIP is at this point, and even that is kind of sketchy.
tRA tells roughly the same story as xFIP, and I happen to be a believer in those stats.
His WAR value last season was also largely dependent on his 215 innings pitched, and his value in this projection is based on a very high innings total compared to others. I think he’s unlikely to reach that total, and his shoulder issues this early are certainly cause to think he may not come close (espescially since he says he still has pain). His FIP, tRA, and xFIP were all largely the same in 2009 as his 2008 season where he was good but not great. The only major difference was a much lower BABIP, which was well below league average. There’s every reason to think he’s a guy that should pitch to about a 3.7 ERA (as he did in 2008 and should have last year), regardless of your belief in xFIP.
In the post I even list 9 guys who I would take over him for 2010, and his shoulder concerns me enough that he may not come in at #10 on my list (although with no injury concerns he would definitely be in that 2nd tier). You may not agree with it, but it’s not some homerish garbage, it’s being backed up by a strong statistical argument and legitimate injury concerns.
Pinella: Where th f*ck was that pitch at?
Ump: Lou, don't you know that you're not supposed to end a sentence with a preposition?
Pinella: Where the f*ck was that pitch at, a$$h*le?
by Stephen Schmidt on Mar 1, 2010 1:36 AM EST up reply actions
Didn't mean to imply that it was garbage,
though I don’t agree with your interpretation of the stats at all. You act like a 3.70 ERA is not 2nd tier, but it assuredly is. In 2009, only 3 guys in the NL East put up lower FIPs than JJ. Even if you go by xFIP (which I wouldn’t, but whatever), JJ put up the 8th best mark in the NL East. To argue that someone like Strasburg or West, who are either completely or largely unproven and may not even start the year in the rotation, should be ahead of JJ is, in my view, mistaken.
For the record, here’s my top 10 NL East SPs for 2010:
1) Halladay
2) Santana
3) Josh Johnson
4) Hanson
5) Nolasco
6) Jurrjens (if his should is healthy, of course)
7) Hamels—you could flip-flop him and JJ if you wanted, they’re very similar in value to me
8) Hudson
9) Lowe
10) Blanton (mainly for the innings… there really isn’t a 10th guy I like much)
"Yeah, and I have an enchanted jock strap." -- Karl Karlson
by Jacob Peterson on Mar 1, 2010 12:45 PM EST up reply actions
A 3.70 ERA is very good, and the Braves will be better off for it.
I just don’t understand all the criticism for my not believing he’s in the elite of the NL east. Of the guys you listed, Hamels, Hudson, and Lowe could all have reasonable cases made to be taken in front of Jurrjens, and his shoulder injury would definitely make it justifiable to move him just off that top ten list.
Just so you know, I didn’t take anything you said to imply that my opinion was garbage. You’ve actually been supporting your argument with some solid statistics that certainly back up your point of view, and it’s really helping the discussion. There have been several others that just comment on how bad an opinion mine is without providing any facts or statistics to back up why it is unjustified, which tends to irritate me. I have no problem if people think I’m underrating him, but I think they should at least attempt to explain why.
Pinella: Where th f*ck was that pitch at?
Ump: Lou, don't you know that you're not supposed to end a sentence with a preposition?
Pinella: Where the f*ck was that pitch at, a$$h*le?
by Stephen Schmidt on Mar 1, 2010 12:57 PM EST up reply actions
If your entire basis is this shoulder injury
You don’t even know what’s going on with that-the MRI revealed no structural damage, and there’s even the possibility he doesn’t miss any time. You’re speculating about his shoulder when the doctors have already told him he’s okay.
MRI's reveal no structural damage all the time, that doesn't put him in the clear.
When he returned to throwing he said he still had pain, so there is still a concern. That type of pain is often a precursor to structural damage rather than a result of it. Just in the last year I can think of several good examples of guys with clean shoulder MRI’s that ended up having shoulder surgery in Webb, Wang, and Maine. Those are just three similar examples off the top of my head without doing research.
That said, his injury wouldn’t be enough for me to leave him off of the top ten in the NL east if I had him in the top few to begin with. He’s fairly close on my list to being left off anyway, so dropping a spot or two because of injury concerns is certainly legitimate. Doing some simple math on the projections used in this post, JJ sits 9th in terms of WAR value per inning pitched, so dropping the amount of innings he’s expected to pitch really hurts his value. It really isn’t too far out of line with the fans projections to feel he might finish outside the top ten, espescially since there is no projection for Strasburg.
Pinella: Where th f*ck was that pitch at?
Ump: Lou, don't you know that you're not supposed to end a sentence with a preposition?
Pinella: Where the f*ck was that pitch at, a$$h*le?
by Stephen Schmidt on Mar 1, 2010 2:51 PM EST up reply actions
There’s dozens of guys who’s MRIs revealed no structural damage, and they returned to pitching with no issue. A larger number than those which had problems that did no show up on MRI, I’m sure.
Only time will tell on that.
I’d just be very concerned that he came into spring training with this type of issue. I’d be less concerned if this popped up partway through spring training when some soreness should have developed, but to start the spring off with shoulder issues after pitching a career high number of innings would concern me alot. It’s certainly something that bears watching, espescially since there are no definite plans to pitch him in any games yet. Seeing how his bullpen goes on Wed will be interesting, although I’d take more out of whether he’s penciled into a spring game rather than the teams remarks on how he looked.
Pinella: Where th f*ck was that pitch at?
Ump: Lou, don't you know that you're not supposed to end a sentence with a preposition?
Pinella: Where the f*ck was that pitch at, a$$h*le?
by Stephen Schmidt on Mar 1, 2010 7:04 PM EST up reply actions
Just to clarify,
When I said “top 20 SPs in the league,” I meant NL. His FIP ranked (I believe) 14th last year. Since there are 16 teams in the league, that makes Jair a very solid #2 at worst. That’s exactly how I’d characterize him—a solid #2, very good but not quite a star. And that’s what most projection systems show him to be in 2010, too.
"Yeah, and I have an enchanted jock strap." -- Karl Karlson
by Jacob Peterson on Mar 1, 2010 12:35 PM EST up reply actions
That's roughly my view of him...a solid #2 to a very good #3.
We also both seem to agree that if healthy he’d fit into that 6-10 range in the NL east. I guess I just have more concerns about his shoulder issues, and given that I think that he’s a guy that derives most of his value from his durability and ability to pitch deeper into games I feel he’ll lose some of his value because of that injury. It’s certainly possible that I’m making too much of his injury, but given the way reports of stuff like this tend to turn out with the team I follow most heavily it’s certainly understandable.
Pinella: Where th f*ck was that pitch at?
Ump: Lou, don't you know that you're not supposed to end a sentence with a preposition?
Pinella: Where the f*ck was that pitch at, a$$h*le?
by Stephen Schmidt on Mar 1, 2010 1:03 PM EST up reply actions
it is a perfectly fair prediction
but I think that, when looking at JJ’s last season, one thing that I keep coming back to is the effectiveness of his slider which wasn’t there in 2008. He threw the slider 14% last year, up from 11% the previous year. his wSL went up from 1.4 to 4.2 as a result. I think that, having that third pitch, helped his changeup and fastball as well. The data shows that his his wFB and wCH went up from 2.8 to 13.2 and from 4.5 to 6.3 respectively. Perhaps he is due for regression, and his shoulder may well be cause for concern. However, the addition and continued development of his slider may prove that he really can be an elite starter.
by Andy Braves Fan on Mar 1, 2010 1:59 PM EST up reply actions
I think you're definitely too concerned about the shoulder,
at least given the MRI results. Guys get shut down for short periods of time fairly often, and it often does not lead to anything big. So long as we use him judiciously this year, there’s no reason to think he’ll suffer.
I know you’re not saying that he’s terrible, but I just can’t see the basis for a few of the guys you rated above him or about even with him. Especially since he’s so young, which means that he almost certainly hasn’t tapped his full potential yet.
"Yeah, and I have an enchanted jock strap." -- Karl Karlson
by Jacob Peterson on Mar 1, 2010 9:59 PM EST up reply actions
Fair enough
As I said earlier, I’m probably being somewhat conservative with injuries in general now due to how well the Mets have handled them. This type of news to a Mets pitcher would almost certainly mean his season should be over, yet they would run him out there for 100 ineffective innings before reaching that conclusion. It must be nice in that aspect to be a Braves fan.
Pinella: Where th f*ck was that pitch at?
Ump: Lou, don't you know that you're not supposed to end a sentence with a preposition?
Pinella: Where the f*ck was that pitch at, a$$h*le?
by Stephen Schmidt on Mar 1, 2010 11:13 PM EST up reply actions
I think it's funny that three of the Marlins starting five recieved less than 20 votes each.
It’s also odd that Oliver Perez was voted on more than Johan Santana.
Pinella: Where th f*ck was that pitch at?
Ump: Lou, don't you know that you're not supposed to end a sentence with a preposition?
Pinella: Where the f*ck was that pitch at, a$$h*le?
by Stephen Schmidt on Feb 28, 2010 3:22 PM EST reply actions
I believe...
that certain players have been “highlighted” on the main page, causing more people to vote for them. Which probably explains why Johnson and Nolasco have so many more votes than any other Marlin. Some of the Marlins’ relievers—important ones, too—have only 5 or 6 votes. It’s crazy how little people seem to be interested in them, both in FLA and elsewhere.
"Yeah, and I have an enchanted jock strap." -- Karl Karlson
by Jacob Peterson on Feb 28, 2010 4:32 PM EST up reply actions
Yeah
i think Oliver Perez was one the guy “Projection of the day” guys they pushed once-encouraging visitors to make projections for them. Guys like that ended up with quite a few more projections than other average players who reached the threshold.
Nice work, one quibble
This is a really interesting writeup and the charts are downright gorgeous. I’m a little perplexed by the conclusion about projection systems in your preamble, though:
“These systems are useful tools, but when it comes right down to it, they are just algorithms based on certain assumptions, and thus not really worth discussing or analyzing.”
Which led to a 2,000-word discussion/analysis of how fans subjectively project certain players. I’m curious how you can draw one conclusion about the relevance of a computer projection model and then draw the opposite conclusion about a necessarily-more-fickle and less objective human projection model.
Notwithstanding that, fine work all around.
Thanks.
The point I was trying to make is not that the fan projections are more valid, but that they are better sources of discussion, precisely because of their subjective nature. With CHONE or PECOTA, there’s not much to comment on, since the numbers are basically just spat out of an algorithm. You can agree or disagree, but all the numbers tell you is what assumptions the algorithm uses. With the fan projections, the numbers tell you what a fair number of other people are actually thinking. Which may or may not be a good projection system, but it will be fun seeing if “the wisdom of crowds” can be more accurate than fancy algorithms.
"Yeah, and I have an enchanted jock strap." -- Karl Karlson
by Jacob Peterson on Feb 28, 2010 4:30 PM EST up reply actions
not Braves related...
but Jay Leno back on the Tonight Show is absolutely awful. I wasn’t a huge fan of Conan either, but he was at least a little original and funny at times.
I don’t wanna hear about some old gray haired 65 year old guy talk about sex with a weird 40 year old guy who likes the Phillies. Not really my cup of tea…
Omar Minaya is my hero!
In terms of Conan
you obviously haven’t seen this:
http://www.fandome.com/video/112622/Conan-OBrien-Old-Time-Baseball/
One of the best late night pieces I have ever seen, not to mention Triumph the Insult Comedy Dog.
by Andy Braves Fan on Mar 3, 2010 10:46 AM EST up reply actions
hornymanatee.com
The third-base umpire ran into the outfield and retrieved the biggest chunk. "It's a f***in' potato."
by alligatorimpersonator on Mar 4, 2010 2:25 AM EST up reply actions

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