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Atlanta Braves Outfielder Jason Heyward Beaten Out By Buster Posey For NL Rookie Of The Year

Something tells me that Jason Heyward and Buster Posey are going to be fighting it out for postseason awards for years to come.

The saga of Jason Heyward and Buster Posey continued today, as Posey edged out Heyward for the National League Rookie of the Year.

Their history together started five years ago when they squared off against each other in the Georgia 4-A State Championships. They were constantly compared to one another when their teams squared off again in the 2010 Major League postseason.

Three voters in the NL did not vote for either Posey or Heyward as ROY, this is potentially unjustifiable. Here are the results:

Rookie 1st 2nd 3rd Points
Buster Posey, San Francisco Giants 20 9 2 129
Jason Heyward, Atlanta Braves 9 20 2 107
Jaime Garcia, St. Louis Cardinals 1 1 16 24
Gaby Sanchez, Florida Marlins 2 1 5 18
Neil Walker, Pittsburgh Pirates 1 3
Starlin Castro, Chicago Cubs 3 3
Ike Davis, New York Mets 2 2
Jose Tabata, Pittsburgh Pirates 1 1
Jonny Venters, Atlanta Braves 1 1

Here is a comparison of their rookie year stats:


G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB K SB CS AVG OBP SLG
2010 - Jason Heyward 142 520 83 144 29 5 18 72 91 128 11 6 .277 .393 .456


G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB K SB CS AVG OBP SLG
2010 - Buster Posey 108 406 58 124 23 2 18 67 30 55 0 2 .305 .357 .505


Earlier this off-season Heyward beat out Posey for Baseball America's Rookie of the Year award.

Rookie reliever Jonny Venters received one vote for ROY... thank you Atlanta writer.

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Seriously? 2/3rds of the people thought Posey was more valuable than Heyward? That’s just ridiculous. I could accept a closer spread of the 1st place votes but he was not even close to that much better. Bah. Playing time matters.

by Perrinbar on Nov 15, 2010 2:10 PM EST reply actions  

Boo.

But what really matters is what they do later in their careers.

"Tony Gwynn made sacrifices. Cal Ripken made sacrifices. I'm not sure Derek Jeter made sacrifices given the ungodly deep pockets the Yankees have." - Chipper Jones

by MBL1 on Nov 15, 2010 2:14 PM EST reply actions  

You know a writer is a complete and total jackass

when he/she doesn’t vote Heyward and Posey either 1st or 2nd. Garcia and Sanchez both got votes for 1st and 2nd place…really?

'Terrible preview...pretty weak, didn't learn anything new. pretty sad." - mastermike

by Scott Coleman on Nov 15, 2010 2:14 PM EST via mobile reply actions  

Was just about to comment on this

I don’t have a problem with Posey being chosen over J-Hey.

But Sanchez and Garcia? WTF?!

If Derek Jeter clubbed a baby seal on earth day while wearing a mink coat and crocodile skin boots while burning tires on an iceberg, the reaction would be "Its OK Derek, you’re a Yankee." -First mammal to wear pants

by Tonley on Nov 15, 2010 2:16 PM EST up reply actions  

That's horsesh*t

How Posey nor Heyward get a 1st or 2nd place vote is hysterical. Do these voters watch baseball??

Eddie V

by DolphinNation on Nov 15, 2010 2:20 PM EST up reply actions  

Good Ole Tommy Hutton

Was practically screaming on FSN Florida at the end of the season that Gaby Sanchez should be the ROY. He constantly complained about “Big Name Cities” and the “bias” towards them.

And don’t ask me why I was watching Marlins baseball. I think the Braves were off that day (or so I keep telling myself).

"I’ll tell you one thing: The grass at Tiger Stadium tastes best."

by LesMilesEatsGrass on Nov 15, 2010 2:46 PM EST up reply actions  

lol

the Marlins guys are the worst in baseball. That’s funny.

'Terrible preview...pretty weak, didn't learn anything new. pretty sad." - mastermike

by Scott Coleman on Nov 15, 2010 2:55 PM EST up reply actions  

Even worse...

Add up the total number of votes for each.

Posey and Heyward were left off one ballot entirely…

Betting it’s a Marlins douchebag. Or maybe an SF and an ATL writer decided to throw up the bird at their respective competition.

Either way, fucking ridiculous.

-C

It’s rough to sit through these games and not have someone that can’t hit a Ball?

by cthabeerman on Nov 15, 2010 2:31 PM EST up reply actions  

I'll put money on a guy from Philly

just to blend in with the rest of their team and fan base.

'Terrible preview...pretty weak, didn't learn anything new. pretty sad." - mastermike

by Scott Coleman on Nov 15, 2010 2:32 PM EST up reply actions  

Their fan base is great

especially when they run on the field and get tased. Couldn’t happen to a better bunch of jackas*es.

Eddie V

by DolphinNation on Nov 15, 2010 2:35 PM EST up reply actions  

According to Jayson Stark (via twitter):
RT @extrabaggs Only voter to omit Posey was Yasushi Kikuchi of Kyodo News, LA-Anaheim Chapter. He had 1. Sanchez, 2. Heyward, 3. Garcia.

and

RT @extrabaggs Only voter to omit Heyward was Dejan Kovacevic of Pitts Post-Gazette. He had Posey first, and two Pirates (Walker, Tabata).

"If I have asthma, they won't let me scuba. And if I can’t scuba, then what’s this all been about?? What am I working toward??"

"You look like you should be married to one of the San Diego Padres."

by Doghnut on Nov 15, 2010 3:31 PM EST up reply actions  

Neil Walker?????

BAHAHAHAHA!!!!! I almost fell outta my chair reading that.

(Sarcasm alert) Yeah, he and Tabata > Heyward. That’s why he writes for Pittsburgh.

Eddie V

by DolphinNation on Nov 15, 2010 3:32 PM EST up reply actions  

These awards should reserve the right to...

nullify any brain dead vote, and ban such voter from ever taking part in any of these again.

Kovacevic certainly deserves such a banning.

http://sportsandgrits.blogspot.com/

by Mr. Sanchez on Nov 15, 2010 4:37 PM EST up reply actions  

I won't hate on the Garcia votes.

It is hard to compare pitchers to hitters, and Garcia went 13-8, 2.70 ERA, 163.1 IP, 7.3 K/9, 3.5 BB/9, 2.06 K/BB. Those are fine numbers for a rookie pitcher.

by cavebird on Nov 15, 2010 2:39 PM EST up reply actions  

There should be a separate award for Pitcher and Hitter.

"Tony Gwynn made sacrifices. Cal Ripken made sacrifices. I'm not sure Derek Jeter made sacrifices given the ungodly deep pockets the Yankees have." - Chipper Jones

by MBL1 on Nov 15, 2010 2:43 PM EST up reply actions  

Giants fan here

Just wanted to let you know it was actually a Giants beat writer who had Ventners on his ballot, Andrew Baggerly:

http://twitter.com/#!/extrabaggs/status/4248947346382848

Very close contest. Heyward had a great year, would not at all have been surprised or dismayed had he won.

My Son
Dursh nerf darsh narf. Poop.

by GiantPain on Nov 15, 2010 2:16 PM EST reply actions   1 recs

Interesting...

Thanks for the info.

'Terrible preview...pretty weak, didn't learn anything new. pretty sad." - mastermike

by Scott Coleman on Nov 15, 2010 2:23 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

Baggerly has some sorta fetish for good relief pitchers

He gave Jeremy Affeldt a 10th place MVP vote last year.

My Son
Dursh nerf darsh narf. Poop.

by GiantPain on Nov 15, 2010 2:26 PM EST up reply actions  

LOL…that’s embarrassing.

'Terrible preview...pretty weak, didn't learn anything new. pretty sad." - mastermike

by Scott Coleman on Nov 15, 2010 2:28 PM EST up reply actions  

Obviously trying to repent for his sin.

Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.

Panthers '010: Save the Richardson family coffers! We'll take the winning if we stumble into it.

by MichaelProcton on Nov 16, 2010 1:38 AM EST up reply actions  

The 6 votes..

..that were not for Heyward/Posey for 1st/2nd are a complete joke.

by Buffalo Braves on Nov 15, 2010 2:17 PM EST reply actions  

I don't begrudge the Garcia votes.

Either for first or second. I don’t get the Sanchez votes for first—-although he had a good rookie year (and would be an easy winner last year) he was just a bit below Heyward and Posey in pretty much everything.

by cavebird on Nov 15, 2010 2:18 PM EST reply actions  

Btw...

Buster Posey wears Jason Heyward pajamas.

"Tony Gwynn made sacrifices. Cal Ripken made sacrifices. I'm not sure Derek Jeter made sacrifices given the ungodly deep pockets the Yankees have." - Chipper Jones

by MBL1 on Nov 15, 2010 2:18 PM EST reply actions  

… but what kind of pajamas does Jason Heyward wear?

by ducheneaux13 on Nov 15, 2010 3:29 PM EST up reply actions  

JHey doesn't have a need for sleep.

"If I have asthma, they won't let me scuba. And if I can’t scuba, then what’s this all been about?? What am I working toward??"

"You look like you should be married to one of the San Diego Padres."

by Doghnut on Nov 15, 2010 3:32 PM EST up reply actions  

The kind

His father, Kal-El, sent along with him in the capsule.

by Sam Jethroe on Nov 15, 2010 7:47 PM EST up reply actions  

I guess it depends on what your criteria is

From a statistical standpoint, it’s hard to argue Heyward wasn’t better. He was a 5.0 WAR player compared to Posey’s 3.9. And that takes Posey’s positional advantage into account.

I believe voters aren’t supposed to take post-season into account, but Imagine it was difficult for them to ignore Posey’s giants beating Heward’s braves in the playoffs, and then going on to win the world series.

Personally, it was hard for me to get past the fact that Posey played catcher and batted cleanup for a championship team. But even so, I think I would have voted for Heyward. He had a better regular season.

by jerryclore on Nov 15, 2010 2:19 PM EST reply actions  

Votes are cast before the off-season.

by Nikk.m on Nov 15, 2010 2:20 PM EST up reply actions  

if that's the case

then it’s even more confusing

by jerryclore on Nov 15, 2010 2:21 PM EST up reply actions  

Not really that suprising.

The rate stats were similar, the counting stats were close. The WAR difference was almost purely a playing time issue.

by cavebird on Nov 15, 2010 2:24 PM EST up reply actions  

Heyward: .035 WAR/GM
Posey: .036 WAR/GM

by Nikk.m on Nov 15, 2010 2:30 PM EST up reply actions  

Id bet few if any of the voters take WAR into account.

"If I have asthma, they won't let me scuba. And if I can’t scuba, then what’s this all been about?? What am I working toward??"

"You look like you should be married to one of the San Diego Padres."

by Doghnut on Nov 15, 2010 3:33 PM EST up reply actions  

Heyward had a higher WAR, but he also had more PAs

I believe that Posey’s WAR was higher on a per PA basis.

"We have gotten to the point where not only big market clubs are going over slot, but small market clubs are going over slot, and they see it as a competitive advantage. I don’t think we can be left behind in that regard. I think that we've got to be open minded about it, and we intend to be." - Sandy Alderson

by Russ on Nov 15, 2010 3:00 PM EST up reply actions  

So Heyward should be punished because he was ready from Day 1?

'Terrible preview...pretty weak, didn't learn anything new. pretty sad." - mastermike

by Scott Coleman on Nov 15, 2010 3:03 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

I wouldn't call it punishing Heyward

I believe that the case can be made that Posey was better, even if only slightly, on a per PA basis.

Being a catcher is, in my view, also a big plus, simply because elite catchers are so rare.

"We have gotten to the point where not only big market clubs are going over slot, but small market clubs are going over slot, and they see it as a competitive advantage. I don’t think we can be left behind in that regard. I think that we've got to be open minded about it, and we intend to be." - Sandy Alderson

by Russ on Nov 15, 2010 3:17 PM EST up reply actions  

He didn't catch all that much.

Rob Neyer made the good point that in addition to being called up late, Posey played a lot of first before Molina was sent packing. Only 75 of his 105 starts were at catcher. That puts a dent in the positional advantage argument.

by Sam Jethroe on Nov 15, 2010 7:53 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

In addition to what Sam Jethroe said above...

Heyward also had one of the better defensive seasons of any outfielder in the NL. So it’s not like he’s a slouch in the field.

'Terrible preview...pretty weak, didn't learn anything new. pretty sad." - mastermike

by Scott Coleman on Nov 16, 2010 1:58 AM EST up reply actions  

Then why didnt he win a gold glove??

Clearly your argument holds no weight.

"If I have asthma, they won't let me scuba. And if I can’t scuba, then what’s this all been about?? What am I working toward??"

"You look like you should be married to one of the San Diego Padres."

by Doghnut on Nov 16, 2010 7:04 AM EST up reply actions  

Jeter stole it. The damn chupacabra.

by king of games on Nov 16, 2010 9:58 AM EST up reply actions  

This.

Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.

Panthers '010: Save the Richardson family coffers! We'll take the winning if we stumble into it.

by MichaelProcton on Nov 16, 2010 1:39 AM EST up reply actions  

Heyward was better….I am not understanding how most of the voters gave Posey way more 1st place votes.

JuniorFamilia.com for my BJJ Journey.

by radamez85 on Nov 15, 2010 2:20 PM EST reply actions  

Remember, they don't vote collectively.

20 writers all thinking Posey wins a squeaker still means that Posey gets 20 first place votes.

by cavebird on Nov 15, 2010 2:21 PM EST up reply actions  

ding ding

"If I have asthma, they won't let me scuba. And if I can’t scuba, then what’s this all been about?? What am I working toward??"

"You look like you should be married to one of the San Diego Padres."

by Doghnut on Nov 15, 2010 3:33 PM EST up reply actions  

Its ok

Chipper lost ROY too

I thought hurricane season was over........

by bravesguy311 on Nov 15, 2010 2:37 PM EST reply actions   1 recs

ehh

he’s been alright, nothin special
/sarcasm

"Tony Gwynn made sacrifices. Cal Ripken made sacrifices. I'm not sure Derek Jeter made sacrifices given the ungodly deep pockets the Yankees have." - Chipper Jones

by MBL1 on Nov 15, 2010 2:44 PM EST up reply actions  

i mean, he’s no Hideo Nomo

"I have plus plus typing speed. You just have plus typing speed."

by GeneParmesan on Nov 15, 2010 3:52 PM EST up reply actions  

Not to knock on Buster...

For he’s a deserving winner, but I have a feeling most voters didn’t take into account the time that Heyward played injured…

"You can't print what I said, but they have to catch us." - Chipper Jones

by Jman781 on Nov 15, 2010 2:50 PM EST reply actions  

true

*Just Chill* when things start to look a bit difficult-don't panic as you take away your ability to think straight. Go Braves! Go Dawgs! Go Falcons!

by HEYJUDE on Nov 15, 2010 3:10 PM EST up reply actions  

They should, if...

The argument goes “Well, Posey has this number and that number, which are superior to Heyward’s…” as if Jason played up to par physically all year, which many people seem to somehow believe he did.

by Sam Jethroe on Nov 15, 2010 7:56 PM EST up reply actions  

You can’t prove, or disprove, that a player was playing injured, thus it shouldn’t be considered. If Pujols was completely healthy this year he would probably win the MVP over Votto, but he likely won’t..

by king of games on Nov 16, 2010 10:01 AM EST up reply actions  

There’s another guy on our team who was 2nd in ROY voting. If Heyward ends up as good as him, I think we’ll be alright.

by Broccoman on Nov 15, 2010 2:50 PM EST reply actions  

When Heyward posts his first .300/.400/.500 season next year, I don’t think many people will care about the 2nd place ROY vote.

'Terrible preview...pretty weak, didn't learn anything new. pretty sad." - mastermike

by Scott Coleman on Nov 15, 2010 2:51 PM EST up reply actions  

Jason will

Because now he has to figure out what to put in that empty spot on the mantel that he cleared out for it. I guess he’ll just have one more spot for the inevitable MVP award(s) in the future.

"Everybody's hurt in this league, so when guys go out, other guys have to step in. What are we going to do, cry wolf? Nobody cares about the pain, they just want to see the baby." - Cowboys LB Bradie James

by -Primetime21- on Nov 15, 2010 2:55 PM EST up reply actions  

That was what the (s) after the word award was hinting at

"Everybody's hurt in this league, so when guys go out, other guys have to step in. What are we going to do, cry wolf? Nobody cares about the pain, they just want to see the baby." - Cowboys LB Bradie James

by -Primetime21- on Nov 15, 2010 4:00 PM EST up reply actions  

and Cy Young Awards.

:)

The birth of Jason Heyward was God’s punishment for the sins of the people in New York and Philly.

by TonyAlmeyda on Nov 15, 2010 10:57 PM EST up reply actions  

Atlanta Braves Outfielder Jason Heyward Beaten Out By Buster Posey For NL Rookie Of The Year

and this surprises who?!? Not me, that’s for sure…

*Just Chill* when things start to look a bit difficult-don't panic as you take away your ability to think straight. Go Braves! Go Dawgs! Go Falcons!

by HEYJUDE on Nov 15, 2010 3:08 PM EST reply actions  

ahem...

and where have you and your other lady e-friend ncchopper been?

'Terrible preview...pretty weak, didn't learn anything new. pretty sad." - mastermike

by Scott Coleman on Nov 15, 2010 3:14 PM EST up reply actions  

No kidding

It’s been a while since either graced TC with their comments

Write your own recap!.....mvhsbball

by bighop on Nov 15, 2010 3:28 PM EST up reply actions  

Haha

How are you spending the off-season? Golf?

*Just Chill* when things start to look a bit difficult-don't panic as you take away your ability to think straight. Go Braves! Go Dawgs! Go Falcons!

by HEYJUDE on Nov 15, 2010 3:38 PM EST up reply actions  

Quite a bit

Mostly just loafing

Write your own recap!.....mvhsbball

by bighop on Nov 15, 2010 3:39 PM EST up reply actions  

Sounds good to me :)

*Just Chill* when things start to look a bit difficult-don't panic as you take away your ability to think straight. Go Braves! Go Dawgs! Go Falcons!

by HEYJUDE on Nov 15, 2010 3:39 PM EST up reply actions  

Hey

NCChopper’s hubby is home after being away for quite a long time with work, need I say more:)
I’ve been traveling, back home now recovering from a recent surgery.
How’s life treating you these days?!?

*Just Chill* when things start to look a bit difficult-don't panic as you take away your ability to think straight. Go Braves! Go Dawgs! Go Falcons!

by HEYJUDE on Nov 15, 2010 3:29 PM EST up reply actions  

Thank you

Hernia surgery is Not fun!

*Just Chill* when things start to look a bit difficult-don't panic as you take away your ability to think straight. Go Braves! Go Dawgs! Go Falcons!

by HEYJUDE on Nov 15, 2010 3:36 PM EST up reply actions  

Be well

Glad you’re back

Write your own recap!.....mvhsbball

by bighop on Nov 15, 2010 3:37 PM EST up reply actions  

Thank you!

*Just Chill* when things start to look a bit difficult-don't panic as you take away your ability to think straight. Go Braves! Go Dawgs! Go Falcons!

by HEYJUDE on Nov 15, 2010 3:38 PM EST up reply actions  

Busy

with school and work. Still find time to write for this crappy blog on occasion. ;)

Hope your recovery is going well. We’ll need your moderating skills once the Frank Wren haters eventually start popping out this off-season.

'Terrible preview...pretty weak, didn't learn anything new. pretty sad." - mastermike

by Scott Coleman on Nov 15, 2010 8:05 PM EST up reply actions  

look

I wanted Heyward to get this award as much as everyone. But now that it’s gone, all we can do is look forward to him carrying this team and winning world series rings and MVPs for many years to come. In the end, ROY doesn’t affect HOF voting (getting way ahead of myself but its true. When chippers name goes on the ballot, no one is gonna say “well he didnt win ROY….”). Hanson was probably the best rookie last year and he got beaten by chris coglan or however u spell his forgettable name, and Happ who I thought was the only other real candidate but still not as good as Hanson. But then again, we had to endure that loss because Hanson didnt play from day 1 like the other guys. Now we lose to someone who didnt play from day 1. This feels like the Darren McFadden heisman all over again! we know these sports writers are idiots (not to say that posey winning is idiotic, but realistically heywards .393 OBP as a 20/21 yr old dominates a .357 by a 22/23 yr old, i dont care what position he plays), so we will just have to let it go. In my biased opinion, Posey had an awesome rookie year, but not as awesome as Heywards. And if Heyward didnt get hurt, there wouldnt be a contest. But he did get hurt, there was a contest, and Posey won. Congrats Posey, see you in the playoffs next year *my prediction is we win this time =) *

by Alex H on Nov 15, 2010 3:31 PM EST reply actions  

I'm reminded

Of ‘95 when Nomo edged out Chipper… Look how their respective careers turned out… Posey will mean nothin to anyone in five years when he’s DH’ing for the Toledo Mudhens

"I wasn’t thinking about it. That’s the worst celebration of all time. I didn’t know what to do. I got lost in the moment." - Brian McCann

by HansonManCrush on Nov 15, 2010 3:37 PM EST via mobile reply actions  

C'mon.

Posey and Heyward will both have great careers, and they’ll struggle but I doubt either of them ends up DHing in the minor leagues.

"Tony Gwynn made sacrifices. Cal Ripken made sacrifices. I'm not sure Derek Jeter made sacrifices given the ungodly deep pockets the Yankees have." - Chipper Jones

by MBL1 on Nov 15, 2010 3:43 PM EST up reply actions  

Sorry...

/sarcasm, /overly-dramatic for humorous effect

"I wasn’t thinking about it. That’s the worst celebration of all time. I didn’t know what to do. I got lost in the moment." - Brian McCann

by HansonManCrush on Nov 15, 2010 3:49 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

Congrats to Posey

He deserves it, he had a great season.

by Jay212033 on Nov 15, 2010 4:20 PM EST reply actions  

Is it time?

Freddie Freeman for 2011 ROY

Julio Teheran for 2012 ROY

Can’t decide on 2013, Lipka or Salcedo?

Free Matt Young!

by bighop on Nov 15, 2010 4:26 PM EST reply actions  

Congrats to both Posey and Heyward

Obviously, since I’m a Giant’s fan I wanted Posey to win.

That being said, I believe that they were pretty much so statistically close that it was pretty much a coinflip. Most likely the reason that Posey gets the nod is because it is so hard to quantify how valuable catchers are to the pitching staff statistically, so he may have gotten an unfair bump over Heyward by a lot of writers.

I find it hilarious that two writers didn’t have either of these guys on their ballot. It just goes to show not to value these meaningless awards too much. You obviously want your guy to finish with some recognition, but when a judges can pick two clearly inferior home-team rookies it’s hard to really give much value to these writer’s opinions.

by MLWhiteSF on Nov 15, 2010 4:42 PM EST reply actions  

Agreed.

I probably would have picked Posey as well, as much as it pains me to say. However, with picks like Walker/Tabata and Jeter with the GG, it really cheapens these awards severely.

by king of games on Nov 15, 2010 4:48 PM EST up reply actions  

I gotta agree. Posey winning it was justified- I was hoping for a tie.

BTW the writer who left Heyward off was a Giants writer. (San Jose)

by Broccoman on Nov 15, 2010 4:58 PM EST up reply actions  

No, it was the guy from Pittsburgh.

And the one who left off Posey was a Los Angeles writer. Neither from San Fran or Atlanta did anything weird. Details are above and in the new post.

by cavebird on Nov 15, 2010 4:59 PM EST up reply actions  

Am I the only person who thinks that Posey didn't have that great of a season?

I understand that his overall numbers at the end of the season look good, but it’s largely a result of one spectacular stretch of games in the middle of his season bringing up his averages. Posey played in 104 games this season; over the first 27 games, he put up a .289/.314/.381/.695 line, which is hardly dominant. Over the final 60 games he had a line of .254/.317/.447/.765; also hardly award-worthy. That means that over 4/5 of his season was mediocre at best, and the other 1/5 was so torrid that it pole-vaulted his numbers due to his relatively small amount of PA’s. Awards should be given based on a player’s whole body of work, not just a 20 game stretch in the middle of the season.

by swainzy on Nov 15, 2010 5:33 PM EST up reply actions  

Yes, probabaly

I’m not trying to troll but that could be one of the more idiotic arguments I’ve ever heard in regards to Posey/Heyward.

. Awards should be given based on a player’s whole body of work, not just a 20 game stretch in the middle of the season.

So you are saying that the more accurate way to judge a player is by ignoring certain portions of their whole body of work to get a better idea of their whole body of work.

Do you realize how little sense that makes?

What you mean to say is that “I believe Heyward is a more consistent player and thus deserves the award.”

by MLWhiteSF on Nov 15, 2010 6:20 PM EST up reply actions  

I understand that, being a Giants fan, you probably wouldn’t be swayed by any argument I could possibly make. That being said, the point I am trying to make is that Heyward deserved the award based on his performance over the course of the entire season, as opposed to Posey, who won the award based on his performance in the month of July.

by swainzy on Nov 15, 2010 6:30 PM EST up reply actions  

Being a Giant's fan has nothing to do with my opinion

Like I’ve said twice in this thread I think their statistics were too close to declare that either of them had a better season. I just think your position that Posey didn’t have that great of a season is laughable. I think 99% of other team’s baseball fans would agree with me.

Anyone can hand pick stats to make their point.

If you want to start picking and choosing stretches of games that are more valid let’s go into a direct comparison of the two players from the moment they were both in the big leagues together, May 3. I mean comparing the Heyward’s stats before Posey even had a chance to get hit’s for the Giants wouldn’t make sense right??

Heyward’s Line
 55/9/37/.270/.381/.793

Posey’s Line
58/18/67/.305/.357/.862

Wow, when you disregard that two scorching months that Heyward played when he was first brought up Posey’s power numbers are way better and he was just an overall better hitter for the last stretch of the season.

The above is a stupid stupid example because I am trying to base my judgment of both players of hand picked statistics. This is why everyone else in the world uses a players entire sample of games to judge them and doesn’t just ignore “hot streaks”.

Your point that Heyward is more consistent might have merit. This does not prove he is a better player and certainly not to the extent that you think.

by MLWhiteSF on Nov 15, 2010 7:20 PM EST up reply actions  

As a Braves homer...

….I do have to note that MLWhiteSF is pretty much spot on here.

by cavebird on Nov 15, 2010 9:00 PM EST up reply actions  

I'm chill as a white cherry icey

:)

I wouldn’t come over here otherwise. Even if I believed Posey had a better season I wouldn’t post here trying to argue that.

I’m just trying to show you why that logic isn’t valid and how it can be used to make any player look bad.

I also wanted to get the other sides perspective on what this award actually means considering I don’t find it very important at all.

by MLWhiteSF on Nov 15, 2010 9:28 PM EST up reply actions  

I think that's something we both agree on.

Well, thank you for this discussion; I found it both enlightening and mentally stimulating.

by swainzy on Nov 15, 2010 9:33 PM EST up reply actions  

Im not entirely sure what a white cherry icey is

But it sounds delicious.

"If I have asthma, they won't let me scuba. And if I can’t scuba, then what’s this all been about?? What am I working toward??"

"You look like you should be married to one of the San Diego Padres."

by Doghnut on Nov 16, 2010 7:06 AM EST up reply actions  

I posted this somewhere else

Posey: on base 154 times
Heyward: on base 235 times

I would also like to point out that basically the opposite of this result happened last year when Happ finished ahead of Hanson, probably because of being around for the entire season. The difference there is that Hanson was actually more valuable than Happ in a shorter amount of time, unlike Posey.

by alxn on Nov 15, 2010 5:05 PM EST reply actions  

That’s absolutely true.

I wonder how many GM’s would choose Happ (or Coughlin, for that matter) over Hanson now?

by Sam Jethroe on Nov 15, 2010 7:59 PM EST up reply actions  

To be fair

Long term, I think pretty much all of them would have chosen Hanson then too. You can clearly be a superior player without having the superior season.

Tho, I dont think that applies here. Posey is no Coughlin. He is going to be a great player.

"If I have asthma, they won't let me scuba. And if I can’t scuba, then what’s this all been about?? What am I working toward??"

"You look like you should be married to one of the San Diego Padres."

by Doghnut on Nov 16, 2010 7:08 AM EST up reply actions  

I do think Heyward has a higher ceiling than Posey though. That being said, they will both be great players for a long long time.

by king of games on Nov 16, 2010 10:10 AM EST up reply actions  

i actually like having so many undertated players

Hanson and Heyward both could have taken ROY honors their first seasons but didn’t however I believe they will have better seasons than anyone they went up against.

There might be some type of bias against the Braves if Freeman and Teheran come in 2nd in their respective seasons.

by drumzalicious on Nov 15, 2010 5:46 PM EST reply actions  

also

not a fan of Feliz over Jackson

by drumzalicious on Nov 15, 2010 5:46 PM EST up reply actions  

Dunno about that...

Untested rookie steps up and is immediately a shutdown closer for a division champ that hadn’t been to the playoffs since who knows when?

Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.

Panthers '010: Save the Richardson family coffers! We'll take the winning if we stumble into it.

by MichaelProcton on Nov 16, 2010 1:44 AM EST up reply actions  

having underrated players also means they might be cheaper down the road

by kbertling353 on Nov 15, 2010 6:07 PM EST up reply actions  

Do you guys really believe Heyward is underated?

I find that hard to believe. Everyone who isn’t an idiotic Pittsburg beat writer knows that Heyward is the real deal. Even living on the west coast I caught a ton of justified hype about Heyward from the internet/ESPN throughout the season.

by MLWhiteSF on Nov 15, 2010 6:22 PM EST up reply actions  

Maybe not "underrated", but...

There was a signigficant backlash against him when he had his midseason struggles. Posey provided a convenient vehicle for lots of writers to express that.

by Sam Jethroe on Nov 15, 2010 8:01 PM EST up reply actions  

He’s probably not underrated at this point. Or overrated. I guess you could call him rated.

Kovacevic’s vote really surprised me. We’re not talking some doofus like Mariotti or Plaschke here. It’d be easier to explain if he were just a moron, but I think he’s just too close to the situation. I don’t think that having beat writers vote is a good idea – it’s far easier to see what’s going on in baseball than 50 years ago, so there are other options to get better objectivity.

I voted for Heyward (the ESPN panel, not the award itself), but I don’t see it as a travesty that Posey won. Even Jaime Garcia could be justified. The picks for Gaby Sanchez were much, much worse.

--
Dan Szymborski
Dan's Stuff is on: BTF, ESPN,Twitter

by D.Szymborski on Nov 15, 2010 8:40 PM EST up reply actions  

Freeman is going to have a disadvantage.

There is some advantage to having your local guys and guys who have seen the team more vote for you. Freeman could easily have a vote split situation with Kimbrel if he takes the closer role early in the season. As for Teheran, who knows—-if we have an injury at a certain time next year, he could get too many innings to be eligible in 2012 but not enough to contend in 2011. Things like that happen all the time. Fortunately, it really isn’t a big deal.

by cavebird on Nov 15, 2010 9:03 PM EST up reply actions  

actually

we could have 3 in the ROY votes next year.

Freeman
Kimbrel
Minor

watch none of em crack the top 5 after carrying this team

by drumzalicious on Nov 15, 2010 11:59 PM EST up reply actions  

This is…disappointing.

The only way to fix this is to steal Doc Brown’s time machine and hold Chuck Norris over the voters’ heads. I’d feel much better.

If I ever attend a Braves/Giants game in the future, I’m going to bring a sign that says “Buster who?” just for sh*ts and giggles. If I was feeling really bold, I’d do it in San Francisco. :)

The birth of Jason Heyward was God’s punishment for the sins of the people in New York and Philly.

by TonyAlmeyda on Nov 15, 2010 11:04 PM EST reply actions  

nah

Bold would be.

Heyward was the real ROY

by drumzalicious on Nov 16, 2010 12:00 AM EST up reply actions  

FWIW...

The Venters vote actually came from an SF beat writer. Surely he was trying to make himself feel like less of a dick.

Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.

Panthers '010: Save the Richardson family coffers! We'll take the winning if we stumble into it.

by MichaelProcton on Nov 16, 2010 1:26 AM EST reply actions  

All i can say is

Hideo Nomo (1995 ROY), 12 seasons: 123-109 ERA 4.24, 1976.1 IP, 1918 SO, 908 BB, 1.354 WHIP, 98 ERA+. (1995 AS, 2 SO Leader, 2 CY consideration)

Chipper Jones (1995 ROY runner up), 17 seasons so far: .306/.405/.536/.941, 2490 H, 493 2B, 436 HR, 1491 RBI, 1505 R, 1404 BB, 142 OPS+. (1999 MVP, 2008 Batting and OBP Title, 2007 OPS Title, 6 ASG, 2 Silver Sluggers, 11 MVP consideration) 14 games with XBH streak

by joshant on Nov 16, 2010 11:19 AM EST reply actions  

I don’t think anyone should take the ROY award as an indicator of future success. It’s not for the best player, it’s for the best season.

"If I have asthma, they won't let me scuba. And if I can’t scuba, then what’s this all been about?? What am I working toward??"

"You look like you should be married to one of the San Diego Padres."

by Doghnut on Nov 16, 2010 12:41 PM EST up reply actions  

i said that because

ROY doesn`t mean anything. it just means you were the best player of all rookie.

Chipper was 2nd in ROY, but he has had better career than Hideo Nomo and Chipper is still playing.

Maybe Heyward will be better player than Posey. Heyward is only 21

by joshant on Nov 16, 2010 2:02 PM EST up reply actions  

I agree.

"If I have asthma, they won't let me scuba. And if I can’t scuba, then what’s this all been about?? What am I working toward??"

"You look like you should be married to one of the San Diego Padres."

by Doghnut on Nov 16, 2010 6:43 PM EST up reply actions  

Heyward’s Better.

"It breaks your heart. It is designed to break your heart. The game begins in the spring, when everything else begins again, and it blossoms in the summer, filling the afternoons and evenings, and then as soon as the chill rains come, it stops and leaves you to face the fall alone." A. Bartlett Giamatti

by sddbaker on Nov 16, 2010 11:54 AM EST reply actions  

Perspective

Todd Hollandsworth was the RoY in 1996.

Now be honest, and say if you knew who he ever was, or are googling him right now.

No wonder nobody likes you, Tuttle... everything's a (Pujols) damn debate.

by royhobbs on Nov 16, 2010 1:07 PM EST reply actions  

I did...

But I was also 15 at the time, and watched games more religiously then than I can now (although MLBN is changing that for the better)…thanks to TBS/WGN.

I guessed him as the Dodgers 3B, though, and he never played third once in his major league career. Boy, is there egg on my face…

-C

It’s rough to sit through these games and not have someone that can’t hit a Ball?

by cthabeerman on Nov 16, 2010 1:49 PM EST up reply actions  

Wasn't he in a long stretch of RoYs for them...

Karros, Nomo, Hollandsworth, Piazza? They had like 4 or 5 in a row in the early 90s.

http://sportsandgrits.blogspot.com/

by Mr. Sanchez on Nov 16, 2010 2:34 PM EST up reply actions  

I did.

Longest last name in baseball history prior to Salty.

Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.

Panthers '010: Save the Richardson family coffers! We'll take the winning if we stumble into it.

by MichaelProcton on Nov 16, 2010 5:32 PM EST up reply actions  

Played OF with Dodgers, played with Braves in 2005.

The birth of Jason Heyward was God’s punishment for the sins of the people in New York and Philly.

by TonyAlmeyda on Nov 16, 2010 7:29 PM EST up reply actions  

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