Maddux, Randy, or Pedro?
In the past two winters two of the top pitchers of the past twenty years have retired. Greg Maddux and Randy Johnson could not have had more opposite styles or personalities on the mound. Effectiveness, however, is something they shared. A player not far behind them and also likely to retire in the next few seasons is Pedro Martinez. These are the three best pitchers of this generation(Clemens and his steroid use voids his argument). They will go down as three of the top pitchers of all time and will easily be first ballot Hall of Famers.
Maddux did it with intelligence and movement. He was able to put break on his pitches with only the pressure of his fingers. Maddux was always so many steps in front of the hitters and he has the best pitching mind to ever step on a mound. Throughout his career he earned four straight Cy Young awards and put together a streak of seven seasons with an ERA+ over 162. During those 226 games, Maddux posted a 2.15 ERA and a sub 1.00 WHIP. The most intriguing stat during those seven seasons is that he managed to only walk 269 batters over the course of 1,675 innings. He could put his backdoor two seamer and changeup exactly where he wanted it nearly every time.
Johnson did it with power and intimidation. The 6"10 southpaw was the tallest pitcher to ever step on a major league mound and retires as one of the top two left handed pitchers to ever live. Left handed batters never stood a chance against "The Big Unit's" side-arm delivery and devastating slider. Throughout his career lefties had an OPS of .571 and hit only 25 home runs off him. 25 home runs in 21 seasons, impressive to say the least. He retires with the second most strikeouts behind only Nolan Ryan and the top K/9 of any pitcher, ever.
Pedro did it with electricity and charisma. His years with Boston were incredible. Five times he had an ERA+ over 200 and four were with the Red Sox. He won three Cy Young Awards and lead Boston to its first world series in over 80 years. Pedro was not there to be anyones friend and his feud with the Yankees is one of the most memorable rivalries to ever culminate in baseball. His strikeout numbers, while not as lofty as Johnson's, were still inexplicable to come from a man of such small stature. Baseball-Reference has Pedro listed at 5"11 and 170 lbs, the smallest man to strike out 300 batters in the live ball era. In a generation fueled by steroids, one of its most prolific and dominant players was the size of most high schoolers.
So who is the best? As a Braves blogger it would be expected for me to chose Maddux and be done with it. However I have a very difficult time saying that any pitcher since Kofax is as good as Pedro Martinez. His career ERA, ERA+, and WHIP are substantially lower than his two competitors. Although his wins total is only at 219 compared to Johnson's 303 and Maddux's 355, most of that is due to injury in his latter years. Pedro at his best was better than Maddux and Johnson at their best, simple as that.
This FanPost does not express the views or opinions of Talking Chop.
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I agree to a point.
For peak performance, Pedro has to be the winner. What he did around the turn of this century was ridiculous including one season that was simply not real. (As in it could not have happened even though it did.) Maddux on the other hand, is the easy winner for me in career value; he was great for a long time, with a great peak as well.
On that note, are we certain Mr. Martinez was completely clean?...
Between the two, I couldn’t put one above the other. Personal preference is obviously slated towards Mad Dog, but the Big Man was just as untouchable, plus he has arguably one of the greatest moments in All Star history when he sailed one behind Kruk, who then decided to finish the at bats hitting righty.
Correction
plus he has arguably one of the greatest moments inAll Starbaseball history when hesailed one behind Krukkilled a bird with a pitch
…even though, as an animal person, I find it horrifying. But it’s not like he did it on purpose.
"…aren’t worthy enough to hold his (Pujols) ass cheeks apart while Playboy models wipe him with thousand dollar bills after he craps out the cure to whatever previously-incurable disease." by royhobbs 1/7/09
that too
if he can’t get in on the first ballot, every member of the BBWAA should be drawn and quartered.
Ranking peak performance, I would go Pedro>Maddux>Johnson
Ranking who I would rather have: Maddux>Pedro>Johnson
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Jan 6, 2010 1:48 PM EST reply actions
Yea I can’t take anyone over Maddux, that’s one of the rare times I am biased, but there’s very few pitchers in history better than the Maddux, so it’s really not that biased. I love that he didn’t just strike everyone out with a blazing fastball, because of him I’m a huge fan of pitchers who win with their brains, kinda why I love Jurrjens so much.
Make Mine Maddux. This should have had a poll.

Somebody around here is more anal than the mom on 7th heaven. Freakin' A. lol
(self-appointed President of Yunel's Cartel~~~)
by Chief Noc-A-Homa on Jan 6, 2010 6:09 PM EST reply actions
agreed
its not much fun to say “Greg Maddux.” Voting is just so much more fun!
Let Jason Heyward start the season in RF, and get the hell out of his way.
by Scott Coleman on Jan 6, 2010 6:37 PM EST up reply actions
I never miss an opportunity to “vote for Pedro”
I mix your Melk with my cocoa puffs, Melky Melky cocoa puffs.
by VivaLosBravos on Jan 6, 2010 10:46 PM EST up reply actions
quite possibly the most over-rated movie of the decade
Let Jason Heyward start the season in RF, and get the hell out of his way.
by Scott Coleman on Jan 6, 2010 11:01 PM EST up reply actions
i rarely agree with u (whihc must mean ur wrong a lot… i kid, i kid)… but right now u are definately correct sir
Heyward,Hanson,and Shaffer r ready now!! Why do you think they havent signed the "right handed bat"?
by fatazfoot on Jan 7, 2009 8:59 PM EST
I mean, the first time I watched it I literally sat there for an hour and a half without even chuckling. Then I tried to watch it on TCV a while ago and turned it off after 5 minutes or so
Let Jason Heyward start the season in RF, and get the hell out of his way.
by Scott Coleman on Jan 6, 2010 11:34 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
*TV
Let Jason Heyward start the season in RF, and get the hell out of his way.
by Scott Coleman on Jan 6, 2010 11:38 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Maddux
his HR/9 and BB/9 are insane and BB/K ratio is actually higher than Johnson’s but lower than Pedro.
The thing going for Johnson though is how dominant he still was in his 40’s only time will tell if Pedro can do that or any other pitcher for that matter.
Maddox > Randy Johnson > Maddox Nut Hair > Jim Abbot's other hand > Pedro Martinez
I hate that bastard hard.
by Kelly's Big Johnson on Jan 6, 2010 7:04 PM EST reply actions
Im gonna have to go Pedro, bc he was the most dominant in his heyday….i was surprised to see Maddux was better in the playoffs than Pedro, and that gives him an advantage. I love Maddux as much as the next guy, he was the superior mind and his movement was flat ridiculous, but its not like Pedro was just a flamethrower, he thought through his ABs and his stuff was, as mentioned, nasty. I don’t think Johnson is in the same conversation as these two… he’s really really good, a first ballot HOF, one of the best LHP ever… but he just wasnt as good.
Heyward,Hanson,and Shaffer r ready now!! Why do you think they havent signed the "right handed bat"?
by fatazfoot on Jan 7, 2009 8:59 PM EST
Doesn't being a team member come into play here?
Maddox was by far the better clubhouse guy than those other two guys. Johnson wasn’t great, but all I’ve ever heard about Pedro was how big a douche he was as a person.
by Kelly's Big Johnson on Jan 6, 2010 7:22 PM EST up reply actions
Pedro is such a pussy. If I could have a swing at any 3 players, I’d go for Pedro, Alfonso Soriano and Barry Bonds.
Let Jason Heyward start the season in RF, and get the hell out of his way.
by Scott Coleman on Jan 6, 2010 10:43 PM EST up reply actions
he was protecting his teammates from a fat charging old guy… how is that not being a good teammate…
ok fine ur right Maddux was a better teammate, but im still taking the better player
Heyward,Hanson,and Shaffer r ready now!! Why do you think they havent signed the "right handed bat"?
by fatazfoot on Jan 7, 2009 8:59 PM EST
Maddux
had more years of dominance and dominant play than Pedro.
Pedro may have had a 3 year run like no other since Christy Mathewson, but Maddux had a decade like Cy Young. Maddux had to bat and was very good at moving runners over. He never spent much DL time, etc.
Plus, Maddux made alot, but never as much as Pedro, so in times of payroll constraint, Maddux was probably a better player FOR THE DOLLAR.
The player with the better stuff is Pedro, but the better player is Maddux.
You think that better stuff = better player. That’s just silly.
by apoxonbothyourhouses on Jan 7, 2010 6:00 AM EST up reply actions
no my reasoning for liking Pedro is not solely, better stuff=better player and if thats what was inferred from what i said, then its probably my fault… the fact is Pedro was dominant like no pitcher ever was (im including Koufax here) based on his numbers and the era and park he played in… also, Pedro was able to sustain a level of consistency that is pretty good. I will admit Maddux is more consistent over a long period of time… and most times i will give more credit to his consistency, its just in this case Pedro’s dominance overshadows Maddux extremely high level of performance over a longer period. I really think Pedro was that much better for that stretch.
Maddux is clearly in the top 2, and listing either one as the best of this era isnt really a mistake…but hopefully u’ll see im not just giving Pedro the benefit of having the better stuff.
Heyward,Hanson,and Shaffer r ready now!! Why do you think they havent signed the "right handed bat"?
by fatazfoot on Jan 7, 2009 8:59 PM EST
I thought you wanted the more valuable one?
:)
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Jan 7, 2010 9:57 AM EST up reply actions
i told u last night i consider better player the more valauble one… so shove it… you SOB… i hope u dont make it to wherever u are driving
Heyward,Hanson,and Shaffer r ready now!! Why do you think they havent signed the "right handed bat"?
by fatazfoot on Jan 7, 2009 8:59 PM EST
Good God.
I hope my sarcasm filter just isn’t working.
by Kelly's Big Johnson on Jan 7, 2010 6:16 PM EST up reply actions
Swo and i are cool w/ insulting each other. It’s funny because most people don’t know that we actually knew each other before we ran into each other on this site.
It is humorous to see some people’s reactions to our scathing posts to each other.
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Jan 11, 2010 12:29 AM EST up reply actions
lol…I think I hit a nerve!
Oh, and I made it to VA just fine, thanks!
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Jan 11, 2010 12:28 AM EST up reply actions
Well, i mean, if you like the guy so much, you should at least get his name right.
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Jan 6, 2010 10:16 PM EST up reply actions
I heard that today. I was a little surprised that if all that is true, that it didn’t get out until just now.
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Jan 11, 2010 12:29 AM EST up reply actions
I have to go with Maddux
But not just because he played for the Braves (and kicked ass while doing it). His pitching style was so much more entertaining to watch—finesse and location over power. He never walked anyone. Like, ever. In over 5000 big league innings, he didn’t even walk 1000 batters. Randy Johnson was certainly more intimidating, Pedro might have looked better doing it, but with Maddux it looked like he already had the batter beat before he stepped into the box.
Johnson and Pedro both threw perfect games, and Maddux never did (hell, even Jonathan Sanchez has 1 more no-hitter than Maddux), but the Mad Dog was the whole package: dominating, strikeouts, groundballs, control, WHIP, ERA, and most of all when compared to Pedro and RJ, healthy (he went on the 15-day DL once, whereas Pedro and RJ had a second home on the DL). There will never be another pitcher like Greg Maddux ever again.
wait
isnt there a story out about how he was close to throwing one but he let a guy hit a HR? Like he threw him a pitch that was easy to hit. the guy smacked a HR. Later in the season when they were in the play offs apparently the guy was looking for the same pitch and Maddux gave him a different one and the guy K’ed.
Story goes that Maddux planned that. It was on an interview on Sports South i think
by drumzalicious on Jan 8, 2010 2:34 AM EST up reply actions
That story was about a spring training game, I believe. Supposedly he threw a pitch to Jeff Bagwell, expecting to see him again in the playoffs, and expecting Bagwell to expect that pitch again.
by FineHamAbounds on Jan 8, 2010 2:08 PM EST up reply actions
Actually
Pedro never was credited with a perfect game (even though he did retire 27 straight batters) because the game went into the 10th and he allowed a leadoff single.
by Andy Braves Fan on Jan 8, 2010 3:37 PM EST up reply actions
Thaaaaaaat’s right. But he did throw at least one no-no, right?
by FineHamAbounds on Jan 8, 2010 6:29 PM EST up reply actions
I don't believe he did actually
but I would have to check on that.
by Andy Braves Fan on Jan 10, 2010 12:18 AM EST up reply actions
I'm going to go with Maddux...
and chicks dig the long ball for the win
by Sid Bream's Moustache on Jan 6, 2010 8:32 PM EST reply actions
+1. Chicks do, indeed, dig the long ball.
by FineHamAbounds on Jan 6, 2010 9:10 PM EST up reply actions
you just gotta love it
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ltD21rYWVw
Let Jason Heyward start the season in RF, and get the hell out of his way.
by Scott Coleman on Jan 6, 2010 10:40 PM EST up reply actions
have you seen Mark?
I mix your Melk with my cocoa puffs, Melky Melky cocoa puffs.
by VivaLosBravos on Jan 6, 2010 10:40 PM EST up reply actions
Step into it!
Let Jason Heyward start the season in RF, and get the hell out of his way.
by Scott Coleman on Jan 6, 2010 10:41 PM EST up reply actions
Maddux delivers the best line,
“Hey!! We got Cy Young winners over here!!”
lmao
Viva los Bravos ~
by Chief Noc-A-Homa on Jan 6, 2010 11:20 PM EST up reply actions
I love when he’s doing the chest press (or whatever the hell it’s called) and reading the big book about how to hit. Totally MadDog.
“Lets beat the Mets, for old times sake.” when he said that the night we retired his jersey, I went back and watched it about 8 times
Let Jason Heyward start the season in RF, and get the hell out of his way.
by Scott Coleman on Jan 6, 2010 11:37 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
I was at that game...
…one of the best baseball nights of my life.
"It breaks your heart. It is designed to break your heart. The game begins in the spring, when everything else begins again, and it blossoms in the summer, filling the afternoons and evenings, and then as soon as the chill rains come, it stops and leaves you to face the fall alone." A. Bartlett Giamatti
you lucky dog
Let Jason Heyward start the season in RF, and get the hell out of his way.
by Scott Coleman on Jan 7, 2010 10:26 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
Maddux
I would have to go with Maddux. Being a Braves fan makes me bias, but I would think that Maddux made Smoltz, Glavine, and any other pticher for the Braves during those years better. Its seemed like every time out, those three tried to one up eacher other, in a very good way. Maddux was always a step ahead of the team he was about to face. Those pitchers during that time fed off each other day after day. Smoltz always had near superior stuff, but Maddux and Glavine never really did. I would say that if those three were on seperate teams, they would not have been as good. I want a pitcher that has a better overall career and makes his team better. A sachel of gold gloves don’t hurt either.
honestly
i really hope that happens with our young crop of pitchers where they push each other (Hanson, Jurrjens, Minor, DeVall, Teheran, Delgado, Vizcaino etc.
by drumzalicious on Jan 8, 2010 2:37 AM EST up reply actions
Agree.....but still dissapointed.
I agree that Glaus will definitely come to play this year. With his age, and a recently sketchy bill of health, it is a must to produce if there is any chance he will sign a decent contract before hanging them up.
As for Hinkse, I think he will be more than serviceable. In a stint with the Rays where he saw significant playing time in the outfield he proved he could produce. Obviously the numbers were not staggering, but at the price we’re paying; it’s a steal.
Now for the disappointment:
Although I am not completely pissed about the offseason signings, I am upset that Wren wasn’t “big game” hunting for some legitimate power. Going into the offseason it was “let’s build on this fantastic pitching staff by getting a big boy bat.” Instead, we send arguably our best pitcher off to the “Evil Empire” for a player with the type of numbers we already have in our lineup! I feel that the team is doing what they always do, get a veteran (Glaus) who is out of work, sign them for a year, and hope they produce. Not exactly a recipe for long term success if you ask me.
Roger Clemens > them all
After that I’ll take Pedro, Maddux, and Randy, in that order.
http://www.capitolavenueclub.com/
seriously?
He's pretty good in 'The Show'....
by lemke2blauser2bream on Jan 9, 2010 3:33 PM EST up reply actions
Barf.
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Jan 11, 2010 12:30 AM EST up reply actions
I will get more into my argument later
because I have to leave, just finished reading the post and replies:
First thoughts, I have to say Maddux. Maybe just bias, but at their peaks Pedro was not so much more dominant than Maddux to blow him away (IMAO), and Maddux was dominant longer.
However, in one game (unfortunately against the Braves), Randy Johnson did what Maddux and Pedro never did. A perfect game. Johnson gets the single game dominance over the other two.
IMAO= In my astute opinion?
Heyward,Hanson,and Shaffer r ready now!! Why do you think they havent signed the "right handed bat"?
by fatazfoot on Jan 7, 2009 8:59 PM EST
I hope my opinion is astute
I meant arrogant, but astute sounds better.
by Andy Braves Fan on Jan 8, 2010 9:39 AM EST up reply actions
Something to add
Many haven’t considered the talent of the opposition. The AL during this time was a better hitting league than the NL. I stress a heavy importance on ERA+ and the fact that Pedro had over 200 five times and Maddux had over 200 only twice shows to me that Pedro was the more dominant pitcher during his prime.
by BenDuronio on Jan 7, 2010 6:52 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
ERA
I agree with the ERA, but I would say wins are more important than ERA, and I would guess that Pedro had better lineups scoring more runs that Maddux did, so it does go both ways.
actually
wins are a pretty bad way to measure a pitcher’s performance.
Though it is true that Pedro played on some great Boston teams.
When I say Maddux was dominant longer, I really would emphasize that Maddux had 2x as many season with 30 or more starts. Pedro has 6. Maddux had 10 seasons with 30 or more starts with an ERA+ over 150. Pedro has 3. None of this is to take away from the greatness that was Pedro. I’m just pointing out that Maddux was dominant for a long time over many many many innings.
by Andy Braves Fan on Jan 8, 2010 9:51 AM EST up reply actions
I Guess
If I told you, you can either have a guy with a career 2.75 era and 230 wins, or a guy with a 3.10 era with 350 wins, which guy to you take?
That oversimplifies things way too much. Wins are very team dependent.
For instance Matt Cain only has 2 seasons in his career with over 10 wins. Barry Zito once won 23 for Oakland. When their careers are over, if Matt Cain never wins 20 games in any season, will he have been the worse pitcher? My money is on no.
Here we are discussing two HOF (future) pitchers who were absolutely dominant in their primes. Simplifying the argument to wins is ludicrous. There is so much more to it than that if you are going to take the time to compare the two.
by Andy Braves Fan on Jan 8, 2010 12:03 PM EST up reply actions
Meant to post this here.
The only way wins factors into this argument is in the debate of longevity. Deciding whether any pitcher is better due to wins is usually a flawed argument as many other factors lead to wins.
I would say based on season to season you can’t look at wins to determine who was better. Some pitchers are around more years, like Moyer. He would have more wins that better pitchers, just because he was around longer. Maddux had 9 season with 18 or more wins.
On a different note, 92,93,94,95 Maddux had a 1.98 ERA, does Pedro have a 4 year period like that?
I would say in a career
the same rules apply. Wins simply don’t tell us much about how a pitcher pitched. A guy could give up 10 runs in a start and still win the game. Wins have so many factors outside of the pitcher’s control, it is really a team stat.
Like you pointed out. Moyer’s got about 250 wins as I recall. Does that make him nearly the pitcher Pedro was? Hell no.
As for your question, Pedro comes close. His 97-2000 seasons he put up an aggregate 2.16 ERA and all other numbers are also comparable.
by Andy Braves Fan on Jan 8, 2010 3:31 PM EST up reply actions
No, I agree with that. And I would say that Moyer is probably the worst pitcher with his number of wins. You just don’t see many pitchers last as long as he has. There really isn’t one stat that you can look at to determine a pitchers career, but wins and era are always the first I look at.
Moyer is just a great story of a guy who did the most with the least, and who really milked his durability for everything it was worth. He’s not a HOF’er, but you gotta give credit to the guy, I mean, he didn’t even really learn how to be good until he was what… 34?
by FineHamAbounds on Jan 8, 2010 6:32 PM EST up reply actions
Not knocking the guy at all
just using him as an illustration of why wins are a flawed stat to go by, even in terms of career win marks. Moyer was always kind of the poor man’s Glavine.
by Andy Braves Fan on Jan 10, 2010 12:19 AM EST up reply actions
I'll take Maddux and wont look back
I’m still upset about how many games he would have a W on his record if not for our bullpen issues.
I think Maddux is a smarter pitcher than all, but Pedro actually had the best “stuff”.
are you taking into account randy johnson’s backdoor slider that everybody and their brother was absolutely scared shitless of?
at one time that was listed as the BEST pitch in baseball when thrown by him, simply because you could NOT get a hit off of that pitch
kinda like sandman’s cutter, you know its coming, you know that is the pitch he’s gonna throw you, but you cant hit it to save your life
Pedro had a combination of nastiness…his fastball, and his curve, his circle change and he also threw a cutter as i recall..and they were all nasty
It may be true that Randy had the nastiest pitch, but i got to give it to Pedro
Heyward,Hanson,and Shaffer r ready now!! Why do you think they havent signed the "right handed bat"?
by fatazfoot on Jan 7, 2009 8:59 PM EST
I prefer Maddux's fastball.
91 mph, looks like it’s gonna hit a lefty so they turn their back and then… oops, looks like it tailed back over for strike 3. People at least swung at Johnson’s slider.
"Baseball is the only major sport that appears backwards in a mirror." ~George Carlin
by FineHamAbounds on Jan 14, 2010 3:47 PM EST up reply actions

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