Where Does Arodys Vizcaino Rank in the Braves System
It's time to rank the newest Atlanta Braves prospect, newly acquired from the Yankees, Arodys Vizcaino. There are some glowing reports around baseball about this young kid, who most people compare to the Braves' Julio Teheran and Randall Delgado.
In last year's Baseball Prospect Book, John Sickels said Vizcaino "could emerge as one of the best pitching prospects in the game." MLB.com's Jonathan Mayo says that Vizcaino can throw his fastball as hard as 96 mhp to go along with a "hammer curveball." And Kevin Goldstein of Baseball Prospectus said this year that Arodys has the highest ceiling of any pitcher in the Yankees system.
Baseball America ranked him third in the Yankees system this year, and Goldstein ranked him second, labeling him a four-star (out of five stars) prospect.
We now know he was the centerpiece of the Javier Vazquez trade from the Braves perspective. So where does he rank among our elite prospects? I'm going to make the assumption that he will not rank ahead of Jason Heyward, and I'm also going to assume that he's in the top-10. Vote in the poll below by the end of the year, and once we have the result we'll add him into our Talking Chop 2010 Community Top-25 Prospects (and kick poor Benino Pruneda out).
If you need a reference of the top-25, look on the left sidebar on the main page, near the top there is a section that lists our top-25 prospects. (That actually remains there year-round for reference sake, FYI.)
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I'm actually torn here...
I don’t know if I want to rank him ahead of Teheran. I’m pretty sure that because I ranked Teheran ahead of Minor, that Arodys is at least fourth. I’m going to think on this some more, but I think fourth is a good spot for him.
Teheran pitched twice as much and was much better at not walking guys. His K/BB was still a good bit better than Vizcaino despite Vizcaino King everyone in sight. Add on the fact that Teheran is supposed to have slightly better stuff, it’s pretty clear to me that Julio is still ahead of him.
I wrote a novel, it's about baseball, you should buy it: https://www.createspace.com/3407939
www.dropoutproductions.com
Short season stats are pretty meaningless. Especially with the miniscule sample size we’re talking about. That said, most of what I can gather indicates Teheran is the better prospect. Higher ceiling and his CH has been better than Vizcaino.
http://www.capitolavenueclub.com/
I have him fourth right behind Teheran. I like Teheran’s better BB/9 and K/BB rates he’s shown so far, he threw more last year, and he pitched in A ball not low A. Still almost a 3A and 3B when it comes to these two
by McCann's the Man on Dec 29, 2009 6:03 PM EST reply actions
Not that hard...
Easily ahead of Minor, but do you rank him ahead of Teheran or even Freeman? 96mph at 19 is sweet and might have a higher ceiling than Freeman. I put him 3rd.
I love that 1 isn't an option
Not that anyone would put him there except maybe his family, but it’s amusing that it’s not an option for your opinion.
Higher ceiling than Minor and Kimbrel is a reliever. We have some promising young arms.
Here are Pujols's stats: 1.000/1.000/4.000/5.000. That's right. He is batting a thousand, with a thousand OBP (naturally), and every hit has been a home run, and thus his OPS is a perfect 5.000.
I wasn’t clear, by below I meant, 6,7,8 etc.
I voted 4.
by blitzerlover on Dec 29, 2009 6:24 PM EST up reply actions
I voted 6
1)Heyward is a given
2)Freeman pretty much a given
3)Teheran is younger, but similar to Vizcaino
4)Minor is looking really good, could be a help pretty soon
5)Kimbrel, 15+K/9 has my attention
I see Vizcaino, Teheran, Minor and Delgado as ready to take over when Hudson, Lowe and Kawakami finish their contracts. With those pitchers and Chipper off the books, can you imagine the payroll room we will have. There’s my rational, maybe it’s wrong, but I’m glad we have so many solid prospects that he might be #6.
Fair enough. I don’t really agree with you, but thanks for posting your reasoning.
by blitzerlover on Dec 29, 2009 9:56 PM EST up reply actions
newby
I’m real new here, been reading for awhile, just started posting. Thanks for not blasting me for the 6 rating. Honestly, he fits somewhere between 3-6, I have no clue exactly where. I’m really glad we got him, sounds like he has a great chance to contribute. The youth movement in Atlanta is going to be fun to watch, especially if we get some infielders in the 2010 draft.
Spots 2-7 are really unclear to me. There a a bunch of good prospects that could fit in those spots, and you could make a good argument for any of them.
All I want to know is, who are the people who voted 10? Come on!
by blitzerlover on Dec 29, 2009 10:11 PM EST up reply actions
trade haters
Probably folks who want Vazquez back. Wren told us a pitcher had to go, Vazquez was tradeable. I’m a Lowe fan, so I’m ok with trading Vazquez when he’s worth the most. We can bring Vazquez back next year as a FA, but with our prospects, why?
Welcome, and thanks for explaining your position!
I have him ranked a few spots higher, but I understand your reasoning for having him where you do.
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Dec 29, 2009 10:15 PM EST up reply actions
do you primarily go by big or hop? the reason I ask is we got some other bigs, bigjoe for one. he’s kinda difficult sometimes, but as a fellow big, ya’ll’ll be good, I’m guessin’
“ya’ll ’ll” ?
Heyward,Hanson,and Shaffer r ready now!! Why do you think they havent signed the "right handed bat"?
by fatazfoot on Jan 7, 2009 8:59 PM EST
Contraction meaning “Ya’ll will”
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Dec 29, 2009 11:03 PM EST up reply actions
Love it.
I wrote a novel, it's about baseball, you should buy it: https://www.createspace.com/3407939
www.dropoutproductions.com
?
Is that what they mean by “King’s English”?
What you read over yonder would be a fine example of some good ’ole Southern-fried-okra-fed english.
by Abslilsweets on Dec 29, 2009 11:17 PM EST up reply actions
I don’t know, but I know I’ve said y’all’ll a bunch of times but never had the foresight to actually write it down. I’m impressed.
I wrote a novel, it's about baseball, you should buy it: https://www.createspace.com/3407939
www.dropoutproductions.com
same here…this is the first time I have ever seen it spelled out…no wonder yankees think we are ignorant, because that just looks dumb! lol
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Dec 29, 2009 11:28 PM EST up reply actions
Frankly I think something as complicated as a double contraction is far beyond the capability of the typical northerner.
I wrote a novel, it's about baseball, you should buy it: https://www.createspace.com/3407939
www.dropoutproductions.com
below the mason-dixon line in MD..
…though I realize that makes me a northerner to real southerners.
Anyway, I was in South Carolina a few years ago and received a detailed explanation of “all y’all” because apparently my “y’all” was improperly conjugated.
On Vizcaino, I came in at 5 because I am, for whatever reason, very high on Minor and you all have made a great case as to why Teheran should be more highly rated.
Just to reiterate, I am a big fan of this trade. Trading a surplus arm (albeit a good arm) in this market and getting a top 5 prospect in return is laudable.
by hollerin' brave on Dec 30, 2009 7:50 AM EST up reply actions
I'm a pure northerner
and I was supremely confused when I went to a down home restraunt in the south and the waitress said:
“Ye’et yet? Y’ant to?”
I gave her a blank look and my friend with a bit more southern experience said he was asking ‘Have you eaten yet? Do you want to?’ My chicken and dumplings wery VERY good.
Did she ever pop the other great ones like:
1. Owncha
2. Fixin’ to do something
3. Y’uns
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Dec 30, 2009 10:11 AM EST up reply actions
You-uns. lol
Plural of “you”. My dad says it all the time. It is basically Western North Carolinese for “Y’all”.
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Dec 30, 2009 10:32 AM EST up reply actions
Not to be confused with
Yung-uns
Young ones. Also known as children, or Chir’run.
Wren Be Praised.
WWFWD?
by !Vive la Francoeur! on Dec 31, 2009 3:22 AM EST up reply actions
Also, it is akin to his’n and her’n – both possesives of “his” and “hers”, which incidentally, are already both possessive.
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Dec 30, 2009 10:33 AM EST up reply actions
My chicken and dumplings WAS very good, not were. Although the dish consists of two separate components it is still considered a single entity. Just trying to help your yankee ass speak properly. Your welcome.
Wren Be Praised.
WWFWD?
by !Vive la Francoeur! on Dec 31, 2009 3:19 AM EST up reply actions
Ultra southern! Thats more south than me, and I’m in the middle…
"Hey Fat Kid...the monster is right behind you! RUNNNN!!" -The Host
by bwellnjonesco on Dec 30, 2009 7:57 AM EST up reply actions
I still think people discount Betancourt...
as a C, of course injuries can become a problem, but the same could be said of the numerous young arms in the top 10/25. To play as well as he did, even at Danville, at his age, how is he not a top 5 guy to more people? I just don’t get it.
I think he can go anywhere between 5 and 7 honestly, it’s a matter of preference between him, Randall Delgado, and Minor. Each brings something different to the table so it just comes down to what you’re looking for
by McCann's the Man on Dec 30, 2009 1:37 PM EST up reply actions
def 4th
Teheran pitched at a slightly higher level and i believe both throw the same pitches (FB, Curve, CH) just that Teheran has control of his CH and Vizcaino’s is still a work in progress. Wouldnt be surprised to see Vizcaino converted to a closer
So Vazquez will pitch the Yanks into the playoffs a la Doyle Alexander?
by blitzerlover on Dec 29, 2009 10:22 PM EST up reply actions
it does sound more like the Doyle Alexander trade. bc the Tigers really got reamed in the Jurrjens trade whereas they got something valuable in the Smoltz deal.
Heyward,Hanson,and Shaffer r ready now!! Why do you think they havent signed the "right handed bat"?
by fatazfoot on Jan 7, 2009 8:59 PM EST
Could be
But JJ was much more developed when we dealt for him.
I used to like Frank Wren...not anymore. I want John Schierholz back!
by Scott Coleman on Dec 29, 2009 6:30 PM EST via mobile reply actions
true
i believe thats playing into some people putting him behind minor.
by drumzalicious on Dec 29, 2009 6:32 PM EST up reply actions
Wasn’t JJ projected as a back of the rotation guy when we got him?
by blitzerlover on Dec 29, 2009 6:32 PM EST up reply actions
he still is
i believe that is/was based off of his lack of a high K rate and his nack of pitching to contact. ppl keep expecting him to regress
by drumzalicious on Dec 29, 2009 6:33 PM EST up reply actions
it’s not really ridiculous, his K rate isn’t all that impressive and his BB rate is too high for that small a K rate. I dont expect it to happen but he needs to cut down the walks
by McCann's the Man on Dec 29, 2009 6:46 PM EST up reply actions
I hope he will.
And everything I’ve seen from him leads me to believe he just might.
http://www.capitolavenueclub.com/
I would like to see the walks come down but his FB command is so good, it hasn’t burned him yet. He really does have outstanding command for such a young pitcher. After watching our former pitching prospects like Davies and Reyes miss up with the FB so often, its refreshing to see Jurrjens hitting his spots down in the zone and out of the middle of the plate. Going into the season, I was quietly expecting Jurrjens to regress but the more I see of him, the more I believe he’s special.
"Four of us wolves, running around the desert together in Las Vegas, looking for strippers and cocaine..."
I’ve said before that to my amateur eye, JJ pitches not to contact, but just off contact. His walks come when he refuses to give in and stays down or on the black. His control isn’t pinpoint, but is very good. He simply refuses to give in and throw the ball out over the plate.
Agreed. His FB command is well above average for his age. It’s not 80 command by any means but he’s young and with his fundamentally sound delivery and athleticism, his command should continue to improve. I hope we score him enough runs next year to get him the wins he needs to get national recognition. This kid has pitched his ass off since day 1 in Atlanta and very few on the national scene have given him the credit he deserves but I guess thats how it goes, wins and strike outs trump all.
"Four of us wolves, running around the desert together in Las Vegas, looking for strippers and cocaine..."
by jeg on Jan 2, 2010 4:53 AM EST up reply actions
I don’t expect JJ to regress anytime soon… Braves had another pitcher who had a knack for pitching to contact, his name was Greg Maddux… I believe Hanson and JJ will be the best one two punch in all of baseball!
HansonManCrush
by HansonManCrush on Dec 29, 2009 6:41 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Maddux also had pinpoint control and didn’t walk guys, simply not the same pitcher
by McCann's the Man on Dec 29, 2009 6:47 PM EST up reply actions
nah
i say Hanson/Teheran or Hanson/DeVall
by drumzalicious on Dec 29, 2009 6:48 PM EST up reply actions
I say Hanson/Teheran/Vizcaino/Jurrjens with Minor/DeVall/R. Delgado/Lopez/Spruill battling it out for the fifth spot
by McCann's the Man on Dec 29, 2009 6:53 PM EST up reply actions
I expect some regression from JJ this coming year. He simply out-pitched his periphs last season, and got fairly lucky.
I expect him to have an ERA between 3.5 and 4.5 this coming year, which isn’t bad, but is certainly a far cry from any Maddog comps.
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Dec 29, 2009 7:27 PM EST up reply actions
with reason.
:)
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Dec 29, 2009 10:25 PM EST up reply actions
No?
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Dec 29, 2009 10:28 PM EST up reply actions
Have any pitchers out pitched his peripherals for their entire careerer? That would be an interesting list.
by blitzerlover on Dec 29, 2009 10:28 PM EST up reply actions
I think someone actually started to look into that the other day…I don’t remember what they found though or what thread it was in.
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Dec 29, 2009 10:29 PM EST up reply actions
I did my best
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Dec 29, 2009 10:33 PM EST up reply actions
I’m sure there are and it’s going to be Jurrjens type pitchers, guys who don’t rack up the strikeouts. I mean there are guys like Vazquez who always have better peripherals than stats so I’m sure there are. I know Matt Cain off the top of my head has always had less than stellar peripherals but he’s gotten the results
by McCann's the Man on Dec 29, 2009 11:02 PM EST up reply actions
Tom Glavine made a hall of fame career outpitching his peripherals…
They may have to hospitalize Sid Bream!
-We miss you Skip!
by RaymondBatista on Dec 30, 2009 11:04 PM EST up reply actions
He pitched great in 2008 too, he struggled alittle at the end, but thats when he was pretty much our only starter…
"Hey Fat Kid...the monster is right behind you! RUNNNN!!" -The Host
by bwellnjonesco on Dec 30, 2009 8:02 AM EST up reply actions
He was decent in 08…and really good for a first year player, but great? That might be a stretch.
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Dec 30, 2009 10:12 AM EST up reply actions
I don’t think “great” is a stretch when describing what Jair did for our team in 2008. I was taking into consideration that he was 22 and pitched just 30 or so innings the previous season (led our team in innings pitched in 2008). I was also thinking about how every other starter on our team was injured and Jurrjens sucked it up and kept 2008 from being totally disastrous (gotta give Campillo some love here too).
"Hey Fat Kid...the monster is right behind you! RUNNNN!!" -The Host
by bwellnjonesco on Dec 30, 2009 11:33 AM EST up reply actions
So, relatively speaking, he was great for the Braves. But, he didn’t pitch “great” that year.
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Dec 30, 2009 11:37 AM EST up reply actions
I get what you are trying to say, and I would normally agree that a pitcher who pitches 180 innings with a 3.50-4.00 ERA is “good” and not “great”. However, given the aforementioned circumstances of the team and the player, I would say that Jair’s 2008 was a “great” year for a MLB pitcher. Saying he was great just for the Braves is a vast understatement…
"Hey Fat Kid...the monster is right behind you! RUNNNN!!" -The Host
by bwellnjonesco on Dec 30, 2009 1:02 PM EST up reply actions
You have a good, rational thought here. From a probability standpoint, I agree with you. But Jurrjens’ command is so good that he might be able to sustain his performance despite indicators otherwise. The walks themselves are problematic in that men are on base but the underlying issue causing walks, poor command, is one of Jair’s greatest strengths. I think he could be an early peak guy who regresses significantly as his stuff begins to decline but he has a better chance than most to be special.
If we are comping him to Maddux, as a 22 and 23 year old, he compares very favorably to Maddux and better across the board as 23 year old.
Maddux Jurrjens
H/9 8.3/8.4 9.0/7.8
BB/9 2.9/3.1 3.3/3.1
K/9 5.1/5.1 6.6/6.4
K/BB 1.73/1.65 1.99/2.03
Not many people are as capable of taking the next step with their command that Greg Maddux took but Jurrjens has plus command of 2 pitches and he isn’t even 24 yet. Chances are high that he won’t improve as much as Greg did but he’s on par at the same age and that’s very impressive.
"Four of us wolves, running around the desert together in Las Vegas, looking for strippers and cocaine..."
I wouldn't say Jurrjens has poor command either...
yeah, he has a higher walk rate than desired, but it’s not like he’s wild. He just seems to nibble the corners an awful lot, and doesn’t get calls like Glavine or Maddux in the 90s. As he gets older, the umps likely give him that extra inch to reduce the BB rate.
The trolls are hungry this time of year.
I used to like Frank Wren...not anymore. I want John Schierholz back!
by Scott Coleman on Dec 29, 2009 6:43 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
A scouting report for Vizcaino.
I believe this is BP’s. Gondeee mentions this one slightly.
Vizcaino’s combination of stuff and refinement is rarely found in a teenager. His clean arm action leads to effortless 92-94 mph fastballs that get up to 97 when he reaches back for a bit more, while his smooth mechanics allow him to harness his pitches and pound the strike zone…
Vizcaino’s ceiling tops that of any pitcher in the system, by a significant margin. It will take time, but the skills are there for him to become an All-Star starter.
I like Bethancourt more than most...
but this is a pretty damn good top 5, and not a one has reached 20.
Heyward
Teheran
Freeman
Bethancourt
Vizcaino
Good response.
I was going to say, he (Heyward) hasn’t???? Cool! But alas….and Freeman has too. But both barely. Neither can legally drink. ;) (Unlike Raffy as an 18-yr. old, lol).
I wonder if Freddie would hang out with me if I bought him and his friends some beer…
"Hey Fat Kid...the monster is right behind you! RUNNNN!!" -The Host
by bwellnjonesco on Dec 30, 2009 8:05 AM EST up reply actions
3
Vizcaino and Teheran are an absolute toss up, but I have Vizcaino ahead at 3. Teheran had a slight, let me emphasize slight, bump in the road at Rome while Vizcaino was not only dominant at Staten Island, but more so than he was in Rookie ball. And yes I do realize Staten Island is A- and Rome is A.
It will be intriguing to have them in the same rotation in Rome next year, we should be able to better compare the two.
Being that Vizcaino.....
Is almost a full year older than Teheran and Teheran finished in Low A should be enough to rank Teheran higher but if that isn’t enough just compare both guys numbers at the rookie ball level.
Teheran had a low K rate but that’s about it. The ERA is almost the same, Teheran’s BB rate was far lower, Teheran GO/AO ratio was awesome and you can go on and on so Teheran is clear cut 3 to me.
by Jay212033 on Dec 29, 2009 8:41 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
All this. And, the big stat for me with these two is K/BB. At Danville Teheran had a whopping 5.57 compared to Vizcaino’s 3.47 with Staten Island, which is basically the same level. This is a good indication of a guy who can really pitch. Even after Teheran’s rate dropped to 2.55 at Rome, it still ended up ahead of Vzcaino for the year, 3.72, and again, he pitched almost twice as many innings this year. The stats are just in favor of Tehran, and then there’s the scouting, which suggests he has a slight edge there as well.
I wrote a novel, it's about baseball, you should buy it: https://www.createspace.com/3407939
www.dropoutproductions.com
I like both those K/BB numbers. Fourtunate for the Braves we can have this discussion. Stats and scouting suggest we have two (+) very promising young arms in our system.
by Abslilsweets on Dec 29, 2009 11:22 PM EST up reply actions
I got an idea...
let’s stick them both on Rome to start the year and have them battle it out on the field?
Seriously though, who is in Rome to start the year between Teheran, Vizcaino, Robinson Lopez, Caleb Brewer, Ronan Pacheco, Carlos Perez, Masters, Crim, Stovall, and Oberholtzer. Some may be in Myrtle, but you’ve got Spruill, Devall, Hoover, the Delgados, and Mike Minor in contention for their rotation.
That is one of the more intriguing battles of the spring...
for Atlanta. Who is opens as the starting rotation in Mississippi, Myrtle, and Rome, and who is waiting for Danville?
by Mr. Sanchez on Dec 30, 2009 10:10 AM EST up reply actions
Just my $.02
Devall starts in Rome or extended ST. Minor starts at Mississippi. If he’s at MB to start, he won’t be there for long. Teheran will be at MB. Spruill/Delgado/Teheran/Hoover/Delgado at MB.
"…aren’t worthy enough to hold his (Pujols) ass cheeks apart while Playboy models wipe him with thousand dollar bills after he craps out the cure to whatever previously-incurable disease." by royhobbs 1/7/09
by buzzdeadwax on Dec 30, 2009 11:30 AM EST up reply actions
I would think Teheran starts in Rome...
he did well there, so spending the first half in Rome and second in Myrtle if he is successful wouldn’t be a bad idea to me. At his age, why rush?
Good point
I forgot that he only spent part of the season at Rome. He should definitely start at Rome and possibly finish at MB.
"…aren’t worthy enough to hold his (Pujols) ass cheeks apart while Playboy models wipe him with thousand dollar bills after he craps out the cure to whatever previously-incurable disease." by royhobbs 1/7/09
It's hard to project...
I assume Carlos Perez is in extended spring, and then Danville. Lopez may do the same. The options for each level get pretty thick:
Mississippi-Jose Ortegano didn’t get much time in there last year, so he probably starts with them. Richard Sullivan is probably in Miss, although possibly in the pen, and Scott Diamond or Kyle Cofield may be there was well. Erik Cordier probably starts in Mississippi, Jacob Thompson may be ready for the jump, and you’d assume they’d try and see if Cole Rohrbough could make the move before Minor, considering Minor has yet to pitch in Myrtle while Rohrbough would be in his 3rd year there.
MyrtleYou got Minor or Rohrbough or Thompson, if not 2 of the 3, leading the rotation. JJ Hoover, perhaps Chad Rodgers or Ross Francis. Add both Delgados and that would fill out the rotation. Probably Spruill if there is room.
RomeNow is where the mess begins. Both Randall Delgado and Zeke Spruill are young enough that starting here for a month or two before Myrtle wouldn’t be unheard of. Teheran is definitely here, and likely Devall if he proves healthy since he never finished here last season. Now after that fills 2 or 3 spots, you’ve still got Arodys Vizcaino, Caleb Brewer, Matt Crim, Brett Oberholtzer, Chris Masters, Cory Rasmus, and a 21 year old Ronan Pacheco to pick from. With the age of Carlos Perez and Robinson Lopez plus the plethora of arms we already have, I’d assume both have an extended spring and lead the Danville rotation.
And I forgot Stovall...
Ortegano
Sullivan
Diamond/Cofield
Cordier
Thompson
Rohrbough
Minor
Stovall
Hoover
Rodgers
Francis
Delgado
Delgado
Spruill
Devall
Teheran
Vizcaino
Brewer
Crim
Oberholtzer
Masters
That’s 21 people for 15 jobs, not to mention any other Ps competing to start in AA or A for the Braves. Someone is gonna get squeezed.
by Mr. Sanchez on Dec 31, 2009 11:22 AM EST up reply actions
Teheran is not almost a full year younger.
Vizcaino was born (allegedly for both I guess, lol) on November 13, 1990. Teheran was born on January 27, 1991. Ergo, Vizcaino is almost exactly two and a half months older, not a year older.
4
If Teheran is ahead of Minor then so should Vizcaino. I hope both Teheran and Vizcaino start out in the same place(Rome/Myrtle Beach) for the simple fact I think they’ll compliment one another. Teheran’s best pitch is his Change and Vizcaino’s is his Curve maybe they’ll help one another to perfect the other guys best pitch which is the other guys mediocre pitch. I may have confused many people with what I just said lol!
by Jay212033 on Dec 29, 2009 8:29 PM EST via mobile reply actions
3
but I could go #4 with Teheran at 3rd. They’re both pretty exciting prospects.
Weren’t we top 5 even before this trade?
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Dec 29, 2009 10:23 PM EST up reply actions
Don’t think so. I think we were 15ish, at least that is where I would have ranked us.
by blitzerlover on Dec 29, 2009 10:27 PM EST up reply actions
I thought BA had us #3 on the last report…I don’t remember seeing anything after that.
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Dec 29, 2009 10:30 PM EST up reply actions
All I can find on google is Law ranking us #3, in January of this year. I would think we had to drop a little. At this point I would put the Rangers, Giants, O’s, Rays, and Red Sox in front of the Braves.
by blitzerlover on Dec 29, 2009 10:35 PM EST up reply actions
wasn’t that back when we had Hanson, Schafer, Gorkys, and Locke?
by McCann's the Man on Dec 29, 2009 11:03 PM EST up reply actions
ya but there are some guys we didnt count on last year that are considered good prospects now.
Heyward,Hanson,and Shaffer r ready now!! Why do you think they havent signed the "right handed bat"?
by fatazfoot on Jan 7, 2009 8:59 PM EST
and others that were perhaps a little over-rated…like Gorkys, Locke, etc.
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Dec 29, 2009 11:09 PM EST up reply actions
I agree but with a majority of our talent being in A ball and concentrated in pitching it’d be hard to justify a #3 ranking. I really like what we have but it simply isn’t the third best system in baseball right now
by McCann's the Man on Dec 29, 2009 11:11 PM EST up reply actions
don’t we have something like 4 of the top 25 prospects in baseball and like 7 or 8 of the top 100?
I could be confusing things here though…
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Dec 29, 2009 11:16 PM EST up reply actions
2 top 25
Heyward obviously, and I think Freeman is in the 15-25 range. Teheran could be ranked anywhere from 40-60 imo, and Vizcaino probably in the same range.
by blindsided789 on Dec 29, 2009 11:19 PM EST up reply actions
someone already asked
the dude from BA and i thought he said that Teheran and Vizcaino are in the top 50
by drumzalicious on Dec 30, 2009 1:07 AM EST up reply actions
3rd base
What are the Braves going to do about 3rd base when Chipper retires? Our infield prospects are few and far between. Will it require a trade or a free agent, I don’t see a prospect in sight.
Well, to me Brandon Hicks is the most likely of the current players in the system to take over at 3B, but the reality is that we all might have to accept the reality that stud 3B prospects are just rare. The guys that have the bat and can actually handle the position just don’t come along very often. Hopefully we find someone, but who knows.
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we should grow our own Evan Longoria.
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Dec 29, 2009 11:29 PM EST up reply actions
we should grow our ownEvanEva Longoria.
Heyward,Hanson,and Shaffer r ready now!! Why do you think they havent signed the "right handed bat"?
by fatazfoot on Jan 7, 2009 8:59 PM EST
I like yours better.
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Dec 29, 2009 11:34 PM EST up reply actions
oh, she can hit it hard. and she can play for a long, long time.
I used to like Frank Wren...not anymore. I want John Schierholz back!
by Scott Coleman on Dec 30, 2009 2:27 AM EST up reply actions
wow . . .
the way you just put it she would have our roster injured from the work out
by drumzalicious on Dec 30, 2009 2:57 AM EST up reply actions
we should have signed Everyday Eddie before the Nuts got him…
"Hey Fat Kid...the monster is right behind you! RUNNNN!!" -The Host
by bwellnjonesco on Dec 30, 2009 8:46 AM EST up reply actions
Hicks could be decent...
and Donnell Linares could make a nice jump in his second year in the US. But I wonder about the Jake Hanson and Edison Sanchez kids, as well as they may draft a big SS with hopes of grooming a 3B, since so many 3B seem to be big HS SSs like Chipper.
I'll be watching for Linares...
"Hey Fat Kid...the monster is right behind you! RUNNNN!!" -The Host
by bwellnjonesco on Dec 30, 2009 11:41 AM EST up reply actions
+1 on J. Hanson
Huge sleeper…I like his #’s.
by blindsided789 on Dec 30, 2009 12:08 PM EST up reply actions
I think I voted 3...
…but might have voted 4. (Damn beer.) Complete toss-up between Vizcaino and Teheran. No use trying to sort it out until after next year, so the ranking doesn’t matter. He could be ranked a couple of spots lower with good reason. (props to bighop for explaining rationale.)
Where does our farm system rank now? Even without Heyward, these are some great young arms.
Here are Pujols's stats: 1.000/1.000/4.000/5.000. That's right. He is batting a thousand, with a thousand OBP (naturally), and every hit has been a home run, and thus his OPS is a perfect 5.000.
I saw something on BA that we were 6-12, but that was before we got Vizcaino. Vizcaino is a top-75 prospect, so we’ll see how much that bumps us up. It probably all depends on how they rank Freddie Freeman.
I used to like Frank Wren...not anymore. I want John Schierholz back!
by Scott Coleman on Dec 30, 2009 12:33 AM EST up reply actions
I still think we’re a bit weak on the position prospects, so without looking at anyone else’s prospects I would put us as a fringe top 10 (9-13ish).
by soup du jour on Dec 30, 2009 12:54 AM EST up reply actions
I agree that we are weak on position prospects, but only in terms of depth. We are very top-heavy with Cody, Freeman and of course, Heyward. We just don’t have much after those guys….
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Dec 30, 2009 10:15 AM EST up reply actions
We're just young...
so much of the talent was in rookie ball this year or at least was to start the year. We have lots of talent, but a small bit will be in Mississippi and Gwinnett this year with the vast majority in Danville, Rome, and Myrtle.
by Mr. Sanchez on Dec 30, 2009 10:22 AM EST up reply actions
hmm
all this pitching depth really makes me question extending Hudson. i mean its a good price but at the same time 3 years? i would have preferred his contract to end when Kawakami’s did. at least the guaranteed part with maybe 2 option years.
only reason i say that is because in 2010 all of those guys in Low A Ball should be moving up to A Ball with maybe a taste of AA. Then in 2011 AA with a taste of AAA. I mean in 2012 i wouldnt be surprised if DeVall, Delgado, Teheran, Vizcaino, and more are MLB ready. Im not saying to throw a rotation of all rookies but it would have given us so much more wiggle room to not have guaranteed that 3rd year.
Hanson will be in his 3rd year in 2012 and J.J. in his 4th so we would have two very capable arms at the top of the rotation with Lowe being able to eat some innings for us. Also Minor projects ahead of all of those guys and will likely be in the rotation come 2011 meaning we would have 4 proven starters already.
i dunno just a little venting.
Maybe we can trade Lowe next offseason after he has an awesome bounce-back year this year…that way, we can still keep Huddy around without blocking anyone else.
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Dec 30, 2009 10:16 AM EST up reply actions
I rosterbated that after the Vasquez deal...
Javy goes to NY, and struggles in that wind tunnel. Lowe bounces back and has 220 innings with a mid to low 3s ERA and good peripherals (especially GB:FB and K:BB), and we can move his deal for a solid pack of prospects while resigning Vasquez on the cheap to fill the void until Minor, Ortegano, and the rest of our A ball arms get ready.
by Mr. Sanchez on Dec 30, 2009 10:23 AM EST up reply actions
A Kansas City Shuffle…I like it.
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Dec 30, 2009 10:26 AM EST up reply actions
scary young
Pretty sure Kawakami’s contract is done after 2011, best prospect gets a shot in 2012. Hudson and Lowe are here thru 2012, so 2 more get a shot in 2013. By then, we need extensions with Jair and Hanson, but they will still be only 26 yrs old.
Tommy Hanson trade bait? Someone is going to shoot you.
We have such a glut of young arms that there’s no way less than 3 pan out. And really, that’s all we need if we assume Hanson and Jair stay with us.
Seriously knock on wood.
With that many, somebody should pan out, but TINSTAAPP.
that defeats the purpose
that would be going into the 2011 year and im sure Minor will be ready by then.
by drumzalicious on Dec 30, 2009 1:01 PM EST up reply actions
How do the ceilings for Teheran, Vizcaino and Randall Delgado compare to Tommy Hanson’s?
They may have to hospitalize Sid Bream!
-We miss you Skip!
by RaymondBatista on Dec 30, 2009 12:05 PM EST reply actions
I would guess
Teheran has a higher ceiling, and also maybe Vizcaino. Delgado has to develop his secondary stuff, but I would say he compares favorably to Hanson.
by blindsided789 on Dec 30, 2009 12:10 PM EST up reply actions
wow. That is just amazing.
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Dec 30, 2009 12:16 PM EST up reply actions
i dunno
Hanson’s secondary stuff is what sets him apart from delgado. i just dont see him developing a curve and a slider close to hansons
by drumzalicious on Dec 30, 2009 1:11 PM EST up reply actions
I consider Delgado and Hanson 70 ceilings and Vizcaino and Teheran 75-80 ceilings.
http://www.capitolavenueclub.com/
really?
I though hanson was higher because of 4 plus pitches compared to Teheran with 3 and Vizcaino with 2 1/2
by drumzalicious on Dec 30, 2009 1:12 PM EST up reply actions
I’m with you. Hanson’s ceiling is, IMO, a top flight Ace (80), he showed alittle bit of that last season. All he has left to prove is whether he can keep it up for an entire season. I would say Teheran, Vizcaino, and Delgado all has ace type ceilings, with Teheran leading the pack. Delgado is the most probable to be the bullpen arm of the group. I think all three of these guy’s could be packing 100MPH heat in a few years…
"Hey Fat Kid...the monster is right behind you! RUNNNN!!" -The Host
by bwellnjonesco on Dec 30, 2009 1:28 PM EST up reply actions
What do those numbers denote?
Here are Pujols's stats: 1.000/1.000/4.000/5.000. That's right. He is batting a thousand, with a thousand OBP (naturally), and every hit has been a home run, and thus his OPS is a perfect 5.000.
All four have roughly equivalent ceilings, I’d give Teheran and Vizcaino slightly higher scores because of their potential for better command. Age is working in their favor here though with so much projection left for them. From there, Teheran has a better frame and more physical filling out to do, which could do wonders for his already good velocity. Vizcaino isn’t as tall and has a fuller frame. Here’s a video of his delivery: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QM10yisB3hE
In summation: Teheran > Vizcaino ≥ Hanson > Delgado
"Four of us wolves, running around the desert together in Las Vegas, looking for strippers and cocaine..."
Here is John Sickles top 20 Braves prospects
1) Jason Heyward, OF, Grade A: A complete prospect, perfect Five Tool/Seven Skill player.
2) Freddie Freeman, 1B, Grade B+: We’ll have to see if the wrist injury cuts into his power development, but given his age he gets some slack.
3) Julio Teheran, RHP, Grade B: I still worry about his health and durability.
4) Randall Delgado, RHP, Grade B: A rare thing, an Atlanta pitching prospect that might be underrated. Usually Braves guys get too much hype.
5) Arodys Vizcaino, RHP, Grade B: Acquired from the Yankees in the Vazquez deal, Vizcaino provides another outstanding young arm for the lower levels of the system.
6) Craig Kimbrel, RHP, Grade B: If his command holds up he can be a bullpen force.
7) Mike Minor, LHP, Grade B-: Borderline Grade B. Excellent pitchability with pretty good stuff. I hope I get to see him in Arizona Fall League.
8) Christian Bethancourt, C, Grade B-: Grade includes a lot of projection.
9) Zeke Spruill, RHP, Grade B-: Younger and more projectable than Hoover, but I worry about his durability.
10) J.J. Hoover, RHP, Grade C+: A personal favorite. Need to see him at higher levels, but I love the K/IP and K/BB ratios.
11) David Hale, RHP, Grade C+: Power arm from Princeton, another possible relief mainstay if the command is there.
12) Mycal Jones, SS, Grade C+: Good speed, strikeout rate is rather high, will he hit at higher levels?
13) Brett DeVall, LHP, Grade C+: Would rank higher if not for questions about health.
14) Cody Gearrin, RHP, Grade C+: Another possible bullpen reinforcement.
15) Adam Milligan, OF, Grade C+: Great numbers in his pro debut, scouting reports are mixed, poor BB/K ratio is a caution flag. Could rank as high as 11th.
16) Michael Dunn, LHP, Grade C+: Acquired from the Yankees in the Vazquez deal, Dunn provides a power arm to help in the 2010 major league pen.
17) Jose Ortegano, LHP, Grade C+: Could fit as fifth starter or swingman.
18) Robinson Lopez, RHP, Grade C+: Good rookie ball arm, a long way from being ready but worth watching.
19) Cody Johnson, OF, Grade C+: Enormous power potential but with huge holes in his game.
20) Luis Valdez, RHP, Grade C+: Older prospect, scouts don’t love him, but has been great in the upper minors and could help in the pen. Might knock him down to a Grade C.
21) Scott Diamond, LHP, Grade C: Like Osuna and Ortegano, he could appear in the majors as soon as 2010. Doesn’t have great stuff, but could be useful under the right circumstances.
22) Dimaster Delgado, LHP, Grade C: Good numbers in the Sally League, but another mediocre-stuff lefty according to the reports I have.
I think Freeman is an A- and the pitchers are B+ but Sickels is very judicious with his A’s and A-’s from what I remember
by McCann's the Man on Dec 30, 2009 1:54 PM EST up reply actions
Next Year Draft....
Should be all but position players MI 3B/SS/2B in the first 5-10 picks unless there is a insane pitching opportunity that they can’t pass up…..With this list we have just 4 positional players outside Heyward/Freeman that has SOME potential to be serviceable MLers but the braves really needs to focus on getting Chipper’s replacement or back fill at 2B/SS if Prado move over to 3B. Plus it will give the FO more options to trade Escobar in acouple years when we have replacements coming up through the system. We will have to wait and see what the new scouting staff will focus on in either HS/JCO/College type guys in the draft to address this lack of talent in the MI in the minor league system….
I disagree. With prospects in MLB being such a risk I think you have to go best player available and who your scouts like most regardless of position. Besides pitching can always be flipped later for hitters
by McCann's the Man on Dec 30, 2009 2:06 PM EST up reply actions
I agree with you. I would much rather be really deep in pitching. I feel like it is easier to trade young pitching than young hitting.
by blitzerlover on Dec 30, 2009 2:10 PM EST up reply actions
now Hanson-Ace is right that if there is a hitter and pitcher that grade out the same in our scouts eyes, the hitter should be the pick in this upcoming draft
by McCann's the Man on Dec 30, 2009 2:39 PM EST up reply actions
The reason is..
the chances of any or some of these upcoming picks to do anything much less be a star at the ML level in the draft is a gamble be you have to get the picks to either add to the odds of those players being a impact player on the club will be greater than just loading up on pitching in which we would have to depend on the market and another club that will be willing to trade key young player trade….Not saying that having massive young pitching talent would be a great thing to have as trading chips but having positional players in house without hoping a demand for other factors to get what we need is a lonely branch to be on when all factors don’t line up. Having options just makes sense to me so that we can use all viable options to make that “RIGHT” trade to get a return that we are looking to meet the needs of a franchise that looks to be in budget for the future…..
I agree but I still stand by best available player is the best approach in the MLB draft
by McCann's the Man on Dec 30, 2009 3:30 PM EST up reply actions
jim callis
on his espn chat rated our pitchers, 1- vizcaino 2- teheran 3- minor 4- delgado 5- devall
He rated them in that order when only given the choice of those 5.
by blitzerlover on Dec 30, 2009 7:47 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Ben Badler
Jason (Atlanta)
So where would Vizcaino rank in the Braves system if BA reranked them today? Ahead of Teheran?
Ben Badler (2:41 PM)
Either No. 3 or No. 4 behind Heyward and Freddie Freeman. I’d probably put him No. 3, right ahead of Julio Teheran.
Just wonderin....
According to the UZR thing how does Martin Prado’s defense stand?
by bravesforever16 on Dec 30, 2009 10:06 PM EST reply actions
Pretty mediocre.
But he hasn’t played enough to have a truly meaningful UZR, which usually takes about 3 years of full time play. That being said, the start isn’t too good. On the other hand, he is young and can learn.
Is there any reason that Christopher Masters never seeems to appear on our prospect list? This kid was a two way player in JC and this is the first year he concentrated on pitching. He was 8-4, 69.2 IP, 53 H, 9 BB, 85 Ks, 1 HR, 1.42 ERA, .890 WHIP, and .213 BAA. He gave up 11 ERS with 7 of them in two games. Sounds like very good stats to me unless there is something I don’t know about him. Gave up only 1ER in his last 24 IP.
a lil old for his league… so its tough to gauge how good he really is..IMHO
Heyward,Hanson,and Shaffer r ready now!! Why do you think they havent signed the "right handed bat"?
by fatazfoot on Jan 7, 2009 8:59 PM EST
Yeah, but 21 at Danville when there are a bunch of 19 year olds at Rome will get you overlooked. Joe Ortegano was 21 playing at AA. If you’re that old in Rookie ball and you weren’t a high draft pick or a top international signing, you’re going to get overlooked. It’s the same reason why Crim doesn’t show up on many lists, there are plenty of guys younger who are more highly touted. He’s going to have to show that he wasn’t just a more advanced older player taking advantage. And, even if he goes to Rome in 2010 and pitches well, he’ll be 22 and there will still probably be a bunch of 20 year olds that are more highly thought of. It isn’t a knock on Masters or Crim or anyone like them, it’s a testament to the depth of the system.
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