Melky's Highest Value to the Braves would be in a Trade
by gondeee on Dec 28, 2009 3:58 PM EST
Email
PrintLike many fans who were not a fan of the recent Javier Vazquez trade between the Braves and the Yankees, I was most incensed with our acquisition of Melky Cabrera. This clone of Jeff Francoeur resembles our former right fielder in so many ways, including the adoration that doting homer Yankees fans have for him. His hype, his "smile," his penchant for late-inning heroics while dismissing the more numerous failures of the other seven or eight innings; yes, in so many ways are they alike. And it is this likeness to Francoeur that makes me cringe when I think that we got him in the trade, even if he wasn't the centerpiece.
But the Melk-man has some value to the Braves, but that value has a very short shelf-life. Right now he still has that Yankee hype, that Yankee cache. For the same reason that Braves pitching prospects are often overvalued by other clubs (okay, maybe just the Royals), just about any and every Yankees prospect seems to be overvalued. The hype that Melky Cabrera receives is no where near equal to the production that he produces on the field. That's why we need to hurry up and move him this off-season.
Up to around March 1st is probably the shelf-life of Melky's Yankee aura. After that, he'll be seen for what he is, and not for the pinstripes he no longer wears. Trade the man while we can still exact some type of value from his Yankee pedigree.
SI.com's Jon Heyman tweets this tidbit this afternoon:
if braves will consider trading melky, as atlanta j-c suggests, they should talk to cubs, who'd love him for CF.
Yes, please, beautiful. The Cubs are probably the least sabermetrically inclined team... I'm sure they would love him for center field. Surely there is some Cub or another that the Braves would be interested in. After all, the last time we traded with them it worked out pretty darn well -- throwaway walk-a-lot rookie arm Jose Ascanio for Will Ohman and Omar Infante.
Yes, I know that Melky might realize more of his potential, yada yada yada, but aren't we tired of waiting for guys who might reach their potential. This is a game of right now, and the Braves are a team being built to win now, so only the studs among us should get a chance. Frank Wren needs to keep making moves, and one of those includes moving the Melk-man... we have better internal options.
330 comments
|
0 recs |
Do you like this story?
Comments
well...
Born in 1984.990; French-.983)
-Both Debuted in July of 05
-Frenchy has a slightly higher SO % (melky ~13%, french ~19%)
-Melky Career BA .269; Frenchy Career BA .271
-Melky Career OBP .331; Frenchy Career OBP .311
-Melky Career BB/AB 8%; Frenchy 5%
-Melky’s Field % slightly better than the GG arm of Frenchy. (Melk
But the big similarities that really highlights the braves bringing Frenchy back in the form of Melky are the points already stated here by gondeee.
1)Crappy performance pre 7th inning
2)late inning heroics
3) The sad fact that often the second point here overshadows the first point.
by HansonTheGod on Dec 28, 2009 4:19 PM EST up reply actions
So how are they the same again? :)
He's pretty good in 'The Show'....
by lemke2blauser2bream on Dec 28, 2009 6:56 PM EST up reply actions
The strikeout rate and OBP are really nowhere close. Melkey is kind of the epitome of average while Francoeur just sucks.
by acie4mvp on Dec 28, 2009 9:12 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
This.
Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.
by MichaelProcton on Dec 30, 2009 11:14 AM EST up reply actions
So a 50% higher K rate is "slightly higher?"
That BB rate is also 60% better. And did you really just use fielding percentage to show similarity?
Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.
by MichaelProcton on Dec 30, 2009 11:14 AM EST up reply actions
Any reason you chose to say that via a Spanish movie?
Nothing great was ever achieved without enthusiasm.
-Ralph Waldo Emerson
by GoBravesNY on Dec 28, 2009 5:50 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Interesting comment considering your eyes were apparently closed during Francoeur’s last 900 at-bats with us.
What does that mean? Pretty sure Gondeee was aware of how bad Francoeur sucked.
I wrote a novel, it's about baseball, you should buy it: https://www.createspace.com/3407939
www.dropoutproductions.com
by cbwilk on Dec 28, 2009 6:10 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Francoeur's last 903 AB's with atlanta....
He had a .242 avg.
16 home runs
.288 OBP
106 RBIs
157 SOs
.359 SLG %
.644 OPS
51 BBs
by HansonTheGod on Dec 28, 2009 6:23 PM EST up reply actions
Those numbers are....
Pretty terrible…and i think gondeee is well aware of the fact that Francoeur’s last 900 abs were, as i said earlier, pretty terrible.
by HansonTheGod on Dec 28, 2009 6:27 PM EST up reply actions
Exactly, so why does Gondee insist on linking him with a .269/.331/.716(OPS) hitter? It’s a gross exaggeration to call Melky Cabrera a Jeff Francoeur clone and this site deserves better.
I guess we can count you in with Gondee among those who don’t remember Francoeur’s last 900 at-bats. We dumped a guy with a .640 OPS, not the same guy that game up and hat a great rookie year with us. Of course this has all been established already in this thread.
He OPSs .716. The defense rests. Francoeur might have been worse to end his Braves career, but no spin will make that number any less pathetic. .716, without excellent defense and/or a great set of wheels to justify you somehow staying in the lineup, is awful. And as long as we’re cherry picking, and not comparing career lines, Melky OPS’ed .641 in 2008. Who’s to say he won’t regress to that again this year? He is not an improvement. I’m not saying Frenchy is better, but both are equally crappy, and the comparison certainly is justified.
The difference is...
…Frenchy was going to start and Melky makes a good fourth OF. If we insist on starting Melky full-time, that might be bad. As a fourth OF he makes a ton of sense. Of course, as I have said elsewhere, if we can get someone to overpay for him, that’s cool, too.
Thanks for listing a bunch of stats that have already been covered. What’s at issue here is that fact that you think 900 at-bats is “cherry-picking.” Francouer was a far worse player than his career line and even you would have to admit that. The only spin that is happening is by Gondee to make Melky look worse than he actually is.
07-09: Francoeur, 1980 plate appearances, .271 avg, .314 OBP, .409 SLG, .724 OPS. Cabrera, 1605 plate appearances, .267 avg, .323 OBP, .385 SLG, .708 OPS.
07-08: Francoeur, 1348 plate appearances, .267 avg, .317 OBP, .403 SLG, .720 OPS. Cabrera, 1065 plate appearances, .263 avg, .316 OBP, .369 SLG, .685 OPS
08-09: Francoeur, 1284 plate appearances, .259 avg, .302 OBP, .391 SLG, .693 OPS. Cabrera, 993 plate appearances, .263 avg, .320 OBP, .382 SLG, .701 OPS.
I don’t know, I wasn’t going to look very far into the hole comp, but the more I do, the more similar they become. It’s arguable that Cabrera could have improved had he gotten enough at bats to make up the various differences between him and Francoeur, but it’s equally arguable, and perhaps more logical, that he would have just had the same production with more at bats. In baseball terms Cabrera is a year younger (even though he’s only 8 months younger, but while he’ll play most of 2010 at 25 Francoeur will play all of it at 26) so it could be argued that he could develop and do better than Francoeur at similar age levels. But, again, it’s equally arguable that he’ll continue at the same rate.
Hmm, I’m thinking less of Cabrera the more I look into this.
I wrote a novel, it's about baseball, you should buy it: https://www.createspace.com/3407939
www.dropoutproductions.com
Actually, going further into it, looking at their 23 and 24 year old seasons, since Cabrera hasn’t played much as a 25 year old, might get a better comparison.
Francoeur (07-08) 1348 plate appearances, .267 avg, .317 OBP, .403 SLG, .720 OPS. Cabrera (08-09) 993 plate appearances, .263 avg, .320 OBP, .382 SLG, .701 OPS.
Hmm…
I wrote a novel, it's about baseball, you should buy it: https://www.createspace.com/3407939
www.dropoutproductions.com
what are the trends though…one guy is definitely getting worse (we know who that is) while the other seems to be, at least, staying roughly the same
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Dec 28, 2009 9:47 PM EST up reply actions
My main dig,
Despite all the Francouerish similarities in stats across the board, is that Melky is someone who displayed barely average power in the most homer friendly ballpark in the majors. And we all know that The Ted ain’t exactly The Launching Pad.
"...Braves tie! ...Braves tie! ...Braves tie!"
by The Keith Lockhart Era on Dec 28, 2009 10:03 PM EST up reply actions
I’m willing to give him the standard “National League Boost” in his numbers, but it’s not like he’ll turn into a superstar or anything.
by FineHamAbounds on Dec 29, 2009 1:57 PM EST up reply actions
But we saw Francouer regressing...
is Cabrera falling back, improving, or staying level? Francouer was relied on to be in the 5 or 6 spot producing runs 160 games a year, are we relying on Melky for the same, or for his production lower in the order splitting time with McLouth, Diaz, Heyward, or Schafer? I can see the comparison as players, but when you are asking them to fill different roles, I think the production is much more acceptable from the role we expect of Cabrera vs. the role we expected of French. And on top of that is the steady regression of French.
by Mr. Sanchez on Dec 29, 2009 9:33 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I just think this is a lot simpler than you are making it. Francouer gave us 900 at-bats of sub .650 OPS baseball and wasn’t showing any signs of reversing it. That’s the player we got rid of no matter how far back you go get stats. Unless you pick out Melky’s one bad year, he’s never been that bad. It’s not really that close and certainly not as close as Gondee is making it.
I actually agree with you that if we played Cabrera full time like we played Francoeur, there is a chance he would be just as bad. Luckily that’s not the role Cabrera will play for Atlanta so we shouldn’t have to worry about that.
See above...
are expected roles and the regression of French unreasonable to put in this comparision? 500+ at bats in the 5/6 hole vs. 400 in the 8 hole and consistent regression vs. mediocre stability?
Funny pictures are nice and all but I’d rather you give some statistical analysis to back up your unreasonable claims. I’ll even take some made up reasons at this point rather than your current method of ramming the comparison down our throats with no basis for it.
The statistical trends can’t be argued with and 900 at-bats is no sample size error. Even if you don’t want to look at stats, I know you watched first hand in horror, just as I did, as Francoeur put up some of the worst offensive stats in the history of baseball and yet you can still somehow draw this comparison. I guess it makes a good headline but hit has no substance and worst of all, it unnecessarily brings back memories I had hoped would never have to think about again.
by ajones2522 on Dec 29, 2009 2:42 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I don't exactly agree with this
While Melky was the biggest name in this trade from the Yankees for obvious reasons, he was definitely not the centerpiece. Vizcaino is what we traded for, he’s already projected to be better than Teheran, who our club is so enfatuated with. Melky will become our 4th OF who can play every OF position and a great switch hitter to come off the bench. He’s cheap and will be very serviceable and in a few years everyone will look back on this and want to take back everything they said about Wren.
No, but we can certainly get more use out of one than a sixth SP getting paid big bucks.
(Unless, of course, you think it’s Jurrjens or Hanson who would have hit the pen or AAA.)
Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.
by MichaelProcton on Dec 30, 2009 11:18 AM EST up reply actions
How can we compete?
Philly has four 30+ HR hitters and Roy Halladay. We have D Lowe and Troy Glaus.
HansonManCrush
by HansonManCrush on Dec 28, 2009 4:12 PM EST via mobile reply actions
Have you not seen the rest of their rotation or their bullpen?
I used to like Frank Wren...not anymore. I want John Schierholz back!
by Scott Coleman on Dec 28, 2009 4:23 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
I agree our rotation an bullpen TRUMP every other single team in baseball. So did it last year… Landing us in spectacular third place
HansonManCrush
by HansonManCrush on Dec 28, 2009 5:17 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
our BP did not trump anything last year, and now that we have added power and gotten rid of the black holes named Francoeur and Anderson, you just need to stfu.
You negative nancies are starting to become tiresome.
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Dec 28, 2009 5:27 PM EST up reply actions
Uhh
Every Braves fan has the right to be negative. He/She is not being a jerk about his viewpoint as you are. Just because your viewpoint of the team’s progress is positive does not give you the right to talk down to anyone, so you stfu. This is a blog, and some of us fans are pissed and we want to vent.
Then find another place to do it. Some of us come here every day and hang out and socialize with other Braves fans – regardless of whether or not we are pissed at the team. This isn’t the “everyone bitch about the braves” website. If that is what you want to do, go somewhere else to do it.
Also, if you care to pay attention to what I wrote, I gave reasons why the OP was wrong in their opinion (and yes, there is such a thing as a wrong opinion). All he did was randomly bitch about something using nonsense as his basis.
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Dec 28, 2009 6:14 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
What
Did you really just tell people that no one on this blog is allowed to talk negatively about the Brave’s decisions? Is this an Iranian website? Are you this blog’s secret police? Get a life, all views should be accepted, unless they are abusive to other people rather than about the team and the moves the team has made. Case in point is you, you are not interested in talking about the Braves, but in censoring what other people say about the Braves. Get over yourself. Bottom line is this is a blog for people to write their views and I like to see both sides of the coin, unlike you who wants to control what others think. You want to change people’s minds, write something convincing why they are (rather why you THINK they are) wrong. Because despite your accusations, you still don’t get that your lofty views are your opinion, and everyone is entitled to their own opinion. Just don’t tell people not to share theirs because it differs from yours. Grand idea: if you don’t like someone else’s opinion, skip ahead.
agreed as well
that was kind of ridiculous
The objectionable part was “wanting to vent.” That is indicating that your intention is very different than just offering a negative opinion about the Braves for the sake of discussion.
by Sir Stealth on Dec 29, 2009 12:34 PM EST up reply actions
Exactly.
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Dec 29, 2009 2:34 PM EST up reply actions
I don’t see a problem with “wanting to vent” on a blog discussion. I mean, there was plenty of hardcore venting in about 160 of TC’s game threads last year.
lol…that’s different. And to be fair, the big issue for me at least, is that most of these people are silent throughout the game (or the offseason in this particular case) and don’t participate in any of the actual community stuff with this blog. But, as soon as something happens that they don’t like, they want to come out and let the whole world know that they don’t approve of it, and they offer little to no reason why they feel that way (as evidenced in the OP with the “all we have is Lowe and Glaus” comment).
In the game threads, many of us would be cheering and jeering for 9 innings, and just hanging out having a good time, enjoying baseball and each other’s company. Then, Soriano or Gonzo would blow the lead in the 9th inning, and all hell would break loose from people who were nowhere to be seen prior to the lead disappearing.
I mean, yeah, this is a blog on the internet and people can technically post whatever they want, but at the same time, those of us who are here for more than the bitching sessions can be annoyed with that and try, to some extent, to limit it.
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Dec 29, 2009 3:08 PM EST up reply actions
So what’s the minimum number of friends and/or game thread posts you can have before you are allowed to post something negative?
For future reference.
0
Negativity isn’t the issue. It is unrational/unreasonable negativity that is annoying.
I post negative stuff in game threads all the time, as do most everyone. It is the ones who just jump in after a Braves loss and say things like “Soriano SUCKS!!!” and then are never heard from again that I am talking about.
It is pretty funny that all of this started with a semi-joking comment by me that used the term “negative nancies”…
Anywho, if the OP wants to come back and defend why he thinks all we have is Lowe and Glaus, we can have a discussion. If all he wants to do is bitch about how he thinks we don’t match up to the Phillies and he just wants to let everyone know that by using something ill-concieved and irrational, then he deserves my comment…except for maybe the STFU part….Perhaps I could have been nicer there.
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Dec 29, 2009 4:49 PM EST up reply actions
No, it started when you told someone to STFU
and to stop posting on this blog. Are you a moderator? If not, sorry, but it’s not up to you to decide for the blog which posts are irrational and ill-conceived and which are intelligent and well-thought out.
If you had just said something to the effect of “Your post is irrational and ill-conceived” then no one would have said a word. The problem is when you take it upon yourself to start kicking people off the message boards.
Dang…I guess I should let him back on then…since I am keeping him from posting, apparently.
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Dec 29, 2009 5:05 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Also, thanks for coming to his rescue on something that I have already apologized to him for…
If I have offended you by telling someone to shut up, I deeply apologize to you too, and anyone else who is easily offended at the SU words.
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Dec 29, 2009 5:07 PM EST up reply actions
I see that you apologized for saying "STFU"
but it seems to me that you still feel that you telling another poster to not post anymore was justified. That’s what I have a problem with.
If all someone is going to do is complain and make seemingly asinine posts just to express their disgust, then yes. I would personally (and I am 100% sure that I am not alone here) prefer that they do not post anymore. They add nothing to the discussion, much the same way this conversation is not adding to the discussion.
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Dec 29, 2009 5:42 PM EST up reply actions
I understand how you feel about it
My point is that it’s not up to you. You are not a moderator. It’s that simple.
so i shouldn’t say anything? ok…
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Dec 29, 2009 11:07 PM EST up reply actions
sure
If you want to willfully misunderstand me.
I had a professor tell the whole class one time that we were choosing to not understand what he was failing to convey to us…
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Dec 29, 2009 11:38 PM EST up reply actions
That would be great. Thanks. We don’t need people who try to censor what people say. However in your case…
It shows that you are a know-it-all and a busy body. If you don’t like something, then ignore it.
Every time your ass itches, do you tell the world? I think it would be best if you kept your mouth shut if that’s the case. That is if we are going to go down this censorship road that is..
-----
Braves Fan Since 1982. Go Braves!
"All opinions welcome..."
So, just how bad am I making your ass itch right now? It is extremely hypocritical for you to tell me to ignore something I don’t like, yet you seem to be having no problem telling me something that you don’t like…
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Dec 30, 2009 10:07 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I was never in the game threads, because it seemed like every time I posted in one we would lose.
by blitzerlover on Dec 29, 2009 5:21 PM EST up reply actions
haha…thanks for staying away then!
It is funny, because there were a few games that I would join late, and we would blow the lead, and I would leave.
Other people did the same thing…we are a supersticious lot!
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Dec 29, 2009 5:41 PM EST up reply actions
Mlb.tv saved my life this summer. I got to watch way more games than I usually do.
by blitzerlover on Dec 29, 2009 5:45 PM EST up reply actions
Did you really just tell people that no one on this blog is allowed to talk negatively about the Brave’s decisions?
Not at all. I said this isn’t really the place to vent for the sake of venting.
Case in point is you, you are not interested in talking about the Braves, but in censoring what other people say about the Braves.
Funny…I thought that my response included a rebutal of the OPs position on the Braves.
Get over yourself. Bottom line is this is a blog for people to write their views and I like to see both sides of the coin, unlike you who wants to control what others think. You want to change people’s minds, write something convincing why they are (rather why you THINK they are) wrong.
First, I would have to be on myself to get over myself. Second, I don’t want to control what people think, and am very capable of holding a perfectly civil conversation with someone (see this very thread or many others where I have disagreed with someone else’s viewpoint but still respected their opinion and listened to their reasons). Also, I did include reasons why I think the OP was wrong and just bitching using baseless info.
Because despite your accusations, you still don’t get that your lofty views are your opinion, and everyone is entitled to their own opinion. Just don’t tell people not to share theirs because it differs from yours. Grand idea: if you don’t like someone else’s opinion, skip ahead.
Sure, everyone has a right to their opinion. That doesn’t make their opinion correct. The OP said that the Phillies have Santana and people who can hit 30+ HRs. He went on to say that all we had was Lowe and Glaud. He is being ridiculous and asinine on purpose. He is trying to make a point by being dramatic, and I pointed out that he was wrong. He has the right to be wrong and I have the right to correct that.
Also, it is funny that you are accusing me of being this way, yet you are doing the exact same thing in your response to me. Pot, meet Kettle.
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Dec 29, 2009 2:33 PM EST up reply actions
*Glaus, not Glaud.
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Dec 29, 2009 2:34 PM EST up reply actions
I am absolutely astounded
that you can still even speak. Man, you really need to just go back to talking about the Braves, this is getting ridiculous. You told the guy to STFU. He was pointing out valid things that he did not like, end of discussion. And you chose to respond to him and tell him to shut up. And when I tell you to respect everyone’s opinion, you tell me to go to another blog. Look, its time to let this go, just remember to treat people as you want to be treated. It doesn’t matter how long you have been here, how old or young you are, if you have an opinion about the Braves, you can give it. You do not have the right to tell others not to participate in the blog for doing such. You sure have an overblown sense of entitlement, I suggest you save that stuff for your own websites and remember this is a site for Braves’ fans, to voice their pleasure and or displeasure how they see fit. But like you should have done, I choose not to respond to you anymore, as you are frigging annoying.
Being an internet bully is all I have to live for.
I already apologized directly to him for saying STFU. And he did not point out anything valid that he didn’t like. I did more than tell him to shut up in my response.
I wasn’t telling you to go to another blog. I was saying that there is a perfectly good place for people to make random, bitchy, illogical comments about their dislike of the Braves.
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Dec 29, 2009 4:52 PM EST up reply actions
You know there is a reason for the Bible and it’s not just a historical document. It’s a road map for behavior—basically how we should be treating each other. I’m not a Bible thumper by any means and the only reason I bring this up is because getting along has historical precedence. You seem to feel that it’s okay to act like an ass in public telling everyone else to STFU and get out of this forum. Getting along IS a virtuous thing.
If that’s the case, then YOU should leave the forum—if you choose to not get along. Can’t you see that there seems to be an overall public opinion AGAINST you?
Do you want people to listen to you? The best way to do that is to LEAD THE WAY. Get people to respect you—get people to like you. The only way that’s going to happen is if you get along.
Appreciate seeing the apology but it sure seemed like a half of an apology because you still feel that certain opinions are not welcome.
Personally I agree with the guy. The Braves not have done nearly enough this off season. They suck.
I’ll change my opinion once Wren pulls off the mega deal we are all anticipating. Otherwise, we have been weakened.
-----
Braves Fan Since 1982. Go Braves!
"All opinions welcome..."
uhhh……
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Dec 30, 2009 10:08 AM EST up reply actions
I'm part of the overall public opinion for what he did and how he did it.
Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.
by MichaelProcton on Dec 30, 2009 12:00 PM EST up reply actions
Are we all anticipating a major move?
I’m of the mind that the overall public opinion thinks we’re pretty much done.
Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.
by MichaelProcton on Dec 30, 2009 12:20 PM EST up reply actions
well
DOB did tweet that the Mets acquisition of Bay has made the organization more desperate for a bat
by drumzalicious on Jan 3, 2010 12:59 AM EST up reply actions
Go to the Braves Vent there. I think you may find some welcoming company…
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Dec 28, 2009 6:52 PM EST up reply actions
I agree. Everyone has a right to post—even you Mr. Knowitall.
And every post you have made about this was uncalled for. What is this: “All he did was randomly bitch about something using nonsense as his basis.”
Man, what an ass…
-----
Braves Fan Since 1982. Go Braves!
"All opinions welcome..."
Yeah!
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Dec 28, 2009 11:00 PM EST up reply actions
Im pretty sure
he was calling YOU the ass justin
im pretty sure he knows…knowing him he is continuing to be the lovable ass that he is.
Heyward,Hanson,and Shaffer r ready now!! Why do you think they havent signed the "right handed bat"?
by fatazfoot on Jan 7, 2009 8:59 PM EST
: )
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Dec 29, 2009 2:34 PM EST up reply actions
Way to tell me to stfu when I was merely posing a question for discussion. You a mature adult sir.
HansonManCrush
by HansonManCrush on Dec 29, 2009 10:08 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
I admit the STFU part was a bit extreme. Sorry. But you should also admit that your post was a little dramatic for the sake of being dramatic.
If you really want to have a discussion, don’t make a ridiculous statement like “All we have is Lowe and Glaus”, when in all reality, those two are not all we have, nor are they close to all we have.
If you want to compare what we have to what Philly has, please read farther down where we have already had a discussion (and a civil one on both sides) about this topic.
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Dec 29, 2009 2:36 PM EST up reply actions
Actually, despite a very inconsistent offense leading us to a 6 or 7 game under .500 record for the 1st 70 – 75 games, we were in the WC hunt into the last week of the season; meaning the last 85 – 90 games or so actually constituted a pretty spectacular run.
The plan going into the off-season was to boost the offensive production and bring in more bullpen depth, and put a consistent season together. The plan is going very well and there is, therefore, good reason to believe we will compete very well.
IIRC, only the Phillies had a better record than the Braves in the post-Francoeur era. We went something like 50-32.
But yeah, we are only a 3rd place team and haven’t gotten any better…
/rolls eyes.
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Dec 28, 2009 6:16 PM EST up reply actions
We have 8 15+ HR hitters, so the math balances out, right?
They can have Halladay, and you seem to forget that we have a few other SPs other than Lowe…
You must not have too much of a man crush on Hanson if you don’t even bother to list him on your list of players that we “have”.
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Dec 28, 2009 5:26 PM EST up reply actions
And
They just gutted their farm system
Here are Pujols's stats: 1.000/1.000/4.000/5.000. That's right. He is batting a thousand, with a thousand OBP (naturally), and every hit has been a home run, and thus his OPS is a perfect 5.000.
There is no doubt as to whether or not our franchise is better, but I think one could make the argument that our MLB team is even better.
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Dec 28, 2009 6:44 PM EST up reply actions
What argument can you make that our MLB team is better than the Phills right at this moment?
braves#1
by rockybull on Dec 28, 2009 8:04 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Better rotation, better bullpen and a better bench for sure.
As far as the offense goes, assuming we have a bounce-back year from Chipper, equal production from Prado and Diaz, and a fully healthy Glaus, one could make the argument that our offense could, at a minimum, keep pace with the Phillies’.
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Dec 28, 2009 8:20 PM EST up reply actions
im sorry but i just dont accept that
at our best, our offense as it is constructed is not going to keep pace with utley, rollins, howard, ibanez and werth
"If I have asthma, they won't let me scuba. And if I can’t scuba, then what’s this all been about?? What am I working toward??"
by Doghnut on Dec 28, 2009 8:21 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I agree with that...
…but their rotation and bullpen shouldn’t keep pace with ours either. There simply weren’t the hitters available to catch up to the Phillies’ offense.
ya there were… if we signed Holliday and Bay and Chone Figgins we could have the Phillies offense
people seem to forget all three of their OFers are essentially studs… Werth is really good and no one ever notices… Utley is the best overall player in baseball not named Pujols… and Howard (as much as it pains me to say) seems to have some force that compels pitchers to throw away from him so he can get extended and hit the ball far (opposed to jamming hiim inside where he stuggles)
Heyward,Hanson,and Shaffer r ready now!! Why do you think they havent signed the "right handed bat"?
by fatazfoot on Jan 7, 2009 8:59 PM EST
No, not really...
…Bay isn’t that good, Figgins would have no position in our line-up, and neither would Holliday if we signed Bay and Figgins. Humorously, if we had done all of that and somehow fit them in the field, our payroll would be about the same as the Phillies.
But, I agree with what you say about the Phillies—-they are a very good hitting team. Neither Bay nor Holliday nor Figgins is as good as Utley or Howard. Werth is very good, too, and Victorino isn’t exactly bad. Rollins has had a couple of bad years in a row (and batting lead-off this really helps us out), but if he reverted to 2007 form, that offense would be almost unstoppable.
The lineup (as constructed by me...in December)
1. Rollins vs McLouth – Not sure here…
2. Utley vs Prado – Advantage Utley here…by far.
3. Victorino vs Chipper – Chipper…even with last year’s numbers, advantage Old Man
4. Howard vs Glaus – Howard. If Glaus is healthy, he is close, but Howard.
5. McCann vs Werth – Close, but I think McCann wins this one.
6. Ibanez vs Escobar – I am not a believe in Ibanez’ explosion. His second half supports this skepticism. Advantage Yunel
7. Diaz vs Polanco – Matty D
8. RF vs Ruiz – no matter who we put there, you gotta think they will out-hit Carlos Ruiz
So sure, Philly has the best combination of 4 hitters. But, Atlanta, IMO, has a decent lineup 1-8, one that I would almost prefer to Philly’s, even with their 1-4.
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Dec 28, 2009 8:45 PM EST up reply actions
justin...
i love you, i really do. we dont always agree, but I find you entertaining and I always respect your arguments…but…
Rollins vs McLouth – Not sure here…
really? please tell me you only mean this strictly in the lead-off sense….
Since 2005: Jimmy’s WAR: 23.3, Nates: 8.7
Jimmy has fallen in recent years, but I would rather have him on my team than Nate…
And
4. Howard vs Glaus – Howard. If Glaus is healthy, he is close, but Howard.
I’m not even going to discuss this one…it’s ludicrous. Glaus is no where near Howard’s level.
"If I have asthma, they won't let me scuba. And if I can’t scuba, then what’s this all been about?? What am I working toward??"
The Rollins vs. McLouth argument you put up is weak at best. WAR doesn’t apply in this situation. At all. WAR is largely based off of position so Rollins gets a huge edge just for being a SS and secondly it factors in defense where Jimmy holds a huge edge but this is strictly from an offensive perspective. Rollins has put up OPS of .786 and .719 in the last two seasons, that’s awful. Give me McLouth if we’re talking only about who we want to leadoff
by McCann's the Man on Dec 28, 2009 9:18 PM EST up reply actions
thats why i said i hope he is only talking about a lead-off argument
And McLouth’s ops with us last season was .773 …not that much better, esp considering his position.
"If I have asthma, they won't let me scuba. And if I can’t scuba, then what’s this all been about?? What am I working toward??"
by Doghnut on Dec 28, 2009 9:33 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
with us = .773
"If I have asthma, they won't let me scuba. And if I can’t scuba, then what’s this all been about?? What am I working toward??"
Oh okay, though I wouldnt expect him to go through another huge slump like he did with us last year. And .773 still kills .719
by McCann's the Man on Dec 28, 2009 10:06 PM EST up reply actions
I was looking at it as more of a complete hitter situation, not just specifically leadoff. McLouth has more power than J-Roll, and after his 2009, J-Roll may be about to fall off the edge here pretty soon. I think, at worst, this one is a toss-up.
And yes, Howard is better than Glaus. I said that. But, the difference, in overall hitter ability, isn’t that great. Howard mashes and has better power, but Glaus is a better pure hitter – IE, OBP, etc.
Glaus is a career .255 .359 .497 .856 guy while Howard is a career .279 .376 .586 .961 guy. Similar OBPs with a similar average. Howard definitely has more power though.
However, Glaus has a much lower K% and a slightly higher BB%.
Like I said, advantage Howard, but it isn’t that great of one – assuming full health for Glaus, of course.
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Dec 28, 2009 9:19 PM EST up reply actions
you just said that Glaus is “a better pure hitter – IE, OBP” and then posted that he has a worse OBP than Howard….
I’m sorry but there is a huge gap between Glaus and Howard. Sure he strikes out less…but that’s about it.
"If I have asthma, they won't let me scuba. And if I can’t scuba, then what’s this all been about?? What am I working toward??"
I should have used plate discipline instead of OBP. I meant that Glaus has a better handle on the strike zone and doesn’t strike out as much while walking a tad more (if you take out Howards IBBs).
Glaus is equal to Howard in AVG, and OBP, inferior in power, and superior in plate discipline…doesn’t make for a huge advantage for Howard, IMO.
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Dec 28, 2009 9:49 PM EST up reply actions
i cant believe we're having this argument
I’m going to stop now.
"If I have asthma, they won't let me scuba. And if I can’t scuba, then what’s this all been about?? What am I working toward??"
You could be right
I’m not saying you aren’t, but Glaus has a habit of having tantrums over the umpiring when the umpiring is correct.
Well, to be fair...
Glaus can hit righties AND lefties. Howard murders righties, but against lefties, he’s Jeff Francoeur… with more strikeouts.
by FineHamAbounds on Dec 29, 2009 2:13 PM EST up reply actions
Actually
Let’s do a quick roster breakdown by position.
SP: Halladay, Hamels, Happ, Blanton, (Moyer? Bastardo?) vs.SP: Hudson, Lowe, Hanson, JJ, Kawakami – Without Vazquez, Halladay trumps anyone we’ve got, but our back end is much better. Heck, our 1-4 guys could all end up better than Hamels.
RP: No explanation necessary-their bullpen is a mess, ours isn’t.
C: Ruiz vs. C: McCann. I hate Ruiz because he hits well against us, but yeah-huge edge.
1B: Howard vs. 1B: Glaus-Really, a big edge for Phillies. It will be interesting to see what kind of defender Glaus is at first, but his bat doesn’t measure up against one of the best in the game.
2B: Utley vs. 2B: Prado-another huge edge for the Phillies.
SS: Rollins vs. SS: Escobar- This one is interesting. Rollins put up an ugly .296 OBP last year. Rollins is above average on defense-Yunel is about average. Last year, the edge was to Yunel, the year before, huge edge to Rollins. Bill James’ projections actually has Yunel ahead for next year, but I’ll call it a wash.
3B: Polanco vs. 3B Chipper: Polanco should play well defensively at third. But until last year, Chipper was aging like fine wine. Even if Chipper repeats 2009, edge Braves. If Chipper has any kind of bounce-back at all, huge edge.
LF: Ibanez vs. LF Diaz: Matt’s actually the better outfielder among these two. And remember that after May, Ibanez really tailed off last year. I see Ibanez reverting back to his numbers the last few years in Seattle next season, especially considering that he’ll turn 38 in June. I give a tiny, tiny edge to Diaz here.
CF: Victorino vs. CF McLouth: Surpisingly, UZR actually favored McLouth last year. But Victorino is clearly the better fielder, by a fair margin. Nate’s the better hitter, though, especially if he can find his 2008 form. I’ll call this a wash.
RF: Werth vs. (???): If it’s Melky, huge edge to the Phillies. Werth is easily the most underrated member of either team, and he’s among the best RFers in the game. There’s a chance that Heyward comes out and lights the world afire, but I think it’s edge: Phils here.
Bench: They’ve got some decent bench bats, like Greg Dobbs and Ben Fransisco. We’ve got super-sub Infante, David Ross, and some question marks. Mitch Jones might be nice, and with BJones, Schafer, and Blanco, there’s some outfield depth, but it’s again, edge: Phils.
i think i pretty much agree with this.
"If I have asthma, they won't let me scuba. And if I can’t scuba, then what’s this all been about?? What am I working toward??"
except i would go slight edge yunel
problem is, the phils have some huge edges in Howard, Utley, Werth and Halladay
"If I have asthma, they won't let me scuba. And if I can’t scuba, then what’s this all been about?? What am I working toward??"
I agree with the overall too…but, I think we have some huge edges of our own – Chipper, McCann, the BP, the SP, etc. – more than enough to make up for the advantage that Philly has in those 4 guys.
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Dec 28, 2009 10:01 PM EST up reply actions
i disagree
I guess it’s time to leave it at that.
"If I have asthma, they won't let me scuba. And if I can’t scuba, then what’s this all been about?? What am I working toward??"
Fair enough…I gotta go to bed anyway. It is back to work tomorrow!
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Dec 28, 2009 10:13 PM EST up reply actions
very well done. I think our RP isn’t as great of a shape as you think though. Like i said in another post I like Wagner and Saito as much as the next guy but their is definately some legit injury concerns for those guys. If they are pretty much healthy for the year and pitching up to their standards then yeah ours is better by a good bit so we shall see.
braves#1
Even if we're bitten by the injury bug
And we end up with Moylan closing games, I’m still much more comfortable with that than I am with Lidge.
The only guy they can count on in their bullpen is Madson-we’ve got at least fairly reliable options from Wagner all the way down to O’Flaherty and Medlen.
keep this in mind though that which Lidge will we see? 2008 version or the 2009 version? This guy has had a Mr. Hyde and Dr. Jekyll look even before he came to Philly, so he could easily be good again not sayin he will be perfect with the saves but if this guy can do what he did in 2008 then they could be that much tougher…
braves#1
Either one is fine with me, because Atlanta does really well against both.
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Dec 28, 2009 10:59 PM EST up reply actions
Heck
I forgot that we added Jesse Chavez. There’s some serious depth, if we need it.
Chavez
Dunn
Valdez
Parr
Proctor
Redmond
Acosta (but we’ll pretend he’s not here)
This will be Acosta's sixth year, though...
Maybe we can Boyer him out of town.
Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.
by MichaelProcton on Jan 4, 2010 1:23 PM EST up reply actions
cant we just ya know. act like he isnt there lol
by drumzalicious on Jan 4, 2010 4:39 PM EST up reply actions
Yeah
his start opposite was definitely his best game last year.
If he could do that all the time, this would be one of the finest rotations in history.
he had a good duel with Clayton Kershaw
in early August, as well as strong outings vs. Hamels, Josh Johnson, and Johan Santana in August. If that August is an indicator of what to expect from Kawakami, he just may “do that all the time”. Plain and simple vs. Halladay, or Lincecum, or Sabathia, or Carpenter/Wainwright, or anyone, I’m not saying our starters take a back seat to anyone. They may not all be Cy Young contenders at the end of the year like those 5, but on any given day, we’ve got 5 starters who’ve shown in the past they can pitch with anyone in the league. Hudson, Hanson, Jurrjens, Lowe, and KK are all capable of dominant, shutout caliber performances (I say shutout caliber because a shutout would require Bobby letting them pitch in the 9th).
by Mr. Sanchez on Dec 29, 2009 10:11 AM EST up reply actions
Ibanez won't be as good as he was in the first half...
But he’ll probably be better than he was in Seattle, if only because he’s playing in that Philly bandbox for half his games.
Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.
by MichaelProcton on Jan 4, 2010 1:04 PM EST up reply actions
I'm still not sold on Jayson Werth as any more than a Ryan Ludwick-type.
The guy took a solid eight or nine years to establish himself as a major leaguer (as a very high draft pick), bounces around decently, moves to a tiny ball park, hits 24 homers one year and 36 the next and all of a sudden he’s getting mentioned with the Bays and Hollidays. He very well could prove me wrong but I’m still not 100% sold. I’d also question whether, even with his horrid second half, if Raul Ibanez can match his 2009. Howard and Utley are nasty, but who’s saying they didn’t luck out on two career years by their outfielders who very well may regress more to the norms in ’10.
"...Braves tie! ...Braves tie! ...Braves tie!"
by The Keith Lockhart Era on Dec 28, 2009 10:08 PM EST up reply actions
Werth has had 2 very good seasons and in 2007 had a good half year with the Phills. I think he is the real deal i like this guy. I think he also had injury problems in the past before he got to Philly so i think that hurt him as well, no doubt hittin in that park has helped him but him bein healthy he is showin what he can do.
braves#1
Since 2007
He’s done nothing but rake. It was only half a season in 2007, but his rate stats have been extremely stable over a three year span. It’s not like Ryan Ludwick’s great half-season. And Jayson Werth is a really good outfielder as well-he could easily hold down CF for almost any team, so as a RFer, he’s exceptional.
I mean, I get the argument on him...
I’m just still sorta “meh” on him for whatever reason. He goes 35/100ish again and I’ll shut up.
"...Braves tie! ...Braves tie! ...Braves tie!"
by The Keith Lockhart Era on Dec 29, 2009 4:47 AM EST up reply actions
And if .268 with 156 strikeouts is raking...
Then the Red Sox just signed Ted Williams to a two year, $16 million deal to play left field.
"...Braves tie! ...Braves tie! ...Braves tie!"
by The Keith Lockhart Era on Dec 29, 2009 4:51 AM EST up reply actions
You are now undoubtedly getting laughed at on the Philly boards, much the way we laughed at the Schneider = McCann Mets guy.
If Albert played in the AFL, they’d have to rename it the AZ/NM Fall League, based on where his homers landed.
Haha I forgot about that guy
As long as they can’t lob batteries across state lines I’m sure I’ll prevail. And for the record, Jayson Werth has Nickelback hair.
"...Braves tie! ...Braves tie! ...Braves tie!"
by The Keith Lockhart Era on Dec 29, 2009 1:39 PM EST up reply actions
Or Edge from the WWE.
Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.
by MichaelProcton on Jan 4, 2010 1:25 PM EST up reply actions
C’mon now….you gotta admit, Schneider does have the better D so he gets the nod.
Wren Be Praised.
WWFWD?
by !Vive la Francoeur! on Dec 29, 2009 2:09 PM EST up reply actions
I had that post in the back of my mind as I was making this, but I feel like this is an honest assessment of the two lineups, one which someone would be hard pressed to argue against.
The only objectionable thing I see up there is that Glaus isn’t as far behind Howard as most people think, but we have already had that discussion, and good points were made on both sides.
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Dec 29, 2009 2:39 PM EST up reply actions
I know it's been eight years since he hit 48 bombs
But still, if he’s healthy, he adds such a lacking dimension to our offense and it’s well worth the $2mil roll of the dice. I’ve always liked the guy, Mitchell Report or no, and it’s been awhile since we’ve had a big righty who can mash.
"...Braves tie! ...Braves tie! ...Braves tie!"
by The Keith Lockhart Era on Dec 29, 2009 7:13 PM EST up reply actions
I don’t know, I stopped after:
1. Rollins vs McLouth – Not sure here…
If Albert played in the AFL, they’d have to rename it the AZ/NM Fall League, based on where his homers landed.
in his defense...
time might be catching up to Rollins. His first half last year was about as bad as it gets. I still think he’s better than McLouth, but father time is closing the gap.
Diaz and Rollins are the same age. And Rollins “decline” last year was an aberration, due to a 250ish BABIP. Not to mention that Rollins add an extra 2 WAR or so per year over Diaz due to his position and ability to 145+ games.
If Albert played in the AFL, they’d have to rename it the AZ/NM Fall League, based on where his homers landed.
Sorry, had Diaz in my head, since I just assumed anyone reasonable would have him leading off. LOL.
McLouth is obviously younger and more valuable defensively. But it still isn’t close.
If Albert played in the AFL, they’d have to rename it the AZ/NM Fall League, based on where his homers landed.
You mean
someone who has never had 375 at bats in a season when they’re about to be 32, had the VAST majority of their career at bats come in the bottom half of the order, never been a SB threat, never been a “full time” player, and may not even be an everyday starter to open the year if the kids explode? Of course anyone reasonable would assume he’s leading off, ignoring the fact that Bobby had both last year and often chose McLouth to hit first, in addition to the other things mentioned above regarding Diaz.
by Mr. Sanchez on Jan 2, 2010 1:55 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
No, I mean the guy with the higher OBP both in 2009 and for his career.
If Albert played in the AFL, they’d have to rename it the AZ/NM Fall League, based on where his homers landed.
Yeah, and how'd that obp do the last...
time he was an everyday player, in 2008?
You are still talking about OBP for a guy who has never started much more than half a season, has had the majority of his at bats in advantageous situations because of that platoon role, and has compiled the VAST majority of those numbers starting in the bottom half of the order not the top. He may be a good leadoff hitter, but his career to date certainly hasn’t proven that fact. I’d put the odds higher he’s on the bench than leading off come July 1.
the career platoon player...
who, as he enters his age 32 season, has more starts hitting 6th, 7th, or 8th, than anywhere else in the order combined? The one who’s never started 100 games in a year, or has only one year starting even half a season? Of course, anyone reasonable would have him leading off.
Anyone reasonable would have Diaz leading off?
Yeah, except the people that understand he’s never proven anything for a full season.
Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.
by MichaelProcton on Jan 4, 2010 1:34 PM EST up reply actions
Our offense wont keep pace with the Phillies unless we get some career years out of players and Phillies has some injuries to their offense other than that i dont see it. Starting pitching yes we are better but losin Vaz will hurt a good bit, doesn’t matter if thats his career year or not that hurts no doubt about that even though we have a good rotation we will feel the effects of losin Vaz believe it or not. Bullpen? ehhh i mean i like Wagner and Saito as much as the next guy but they are huge injury concerns. I hope we get a full season of great pitchin from them but who knows, never underestimate Tommy John Surgery and im sure most have heard about Saito arm but they said the same thing about it last year and he had a great season but still injury is of concern here. So lets not pretend that our bullpen is alot better it has a chance to be but we will see. better bench? ehhhh i mean we do have Ross and Infante those two are excelent guys off the bench, i personally think this will need to be a to be continued thing here cause we dont know if we will end up gettin somebody like Utley then moves Prado to bench and or we end up keepin Cabrera but get a better OF and then Cabrera goes to bench i mean if those happen then yeah i agree we have a very very strong bench that is better than theirs but the bench is to be continued in my opinion cause i doubt the phills are done with their bench yet also.
braves#1
Yeah, I'm with rocky...
We’re all hoping that Wagner, Glaus, Huddy, Chipper, and Lowe are all healthy and productive throughout the year — but all should be considered to be risks (remember 2008 when we lost Glavine, Smoltz, and Hudson?). That may be why Wren is stocking up with players that can multi-function. But even given an injury-free team, there hasn’t been a lot of obvious upgrades over the end-of-year 2009 team.
My fantasy is that Wren should tell the Red Sox to call him first in case they wanna go for Jason Bay… and then flip Melky to the Cubs while we take Cameron off their hands (but that’s a bigtime reach). That said, I really think it takes a guy like that before we make any pretentious claims to be better than a 2-time World Series team.
I agree with most of this...
…but I am not as worried about the injury worries. They exist for us, as they do for every team. We have depth in the rotation and depth in the bullpen. We do need another CI for depth, but we could easily get that. I would love to get Garko on the cheap. I could live with Hinske, too.
And, hey, I have your fantasy, too. I would absolutely love to get Cameron and wish we had signed him. He is perpetually undervalued. Unfortunately, as a free agent signee, the Red Sox are not allowed to trade him until June. And unlike an arbitration acceptor like Soriano, I don’t think they can do it even if he gives them permission.
Even before Bay to the Mets...
Cameron couldn’t have been traded for several months.
Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.
by MichaelProcton on Jan 4, 2010 1:36 PM EST up reply actions
This...
is the understatement of the year. 7 of their top 10 gone inside of 6 months. Gutted, pre-sliced, packaged, sold, and deep fat fried is more like it.
It makes a Braves fan giddy.
but their entire core of players is locked in until at least 2011 and many are for a couple years after … o and they have a 30M bigger payroll then us… sure thier system is screwed… but it only takes one -two years to rebuild a system so long as you arent stupid, and considering the talent they’ve developed, or found, Utley, Rollins, Howard, Hamels, Victorino, Werth ( i don’ t think they drafted him, but they get credit for turning him into a good player IMO).
Heyward,Hanson,and Shaffer r ready now!! Why do you think they havent signed the "right handed bat"?
by fatazfoot on Jan 7, 2009 8:59 PM EST
Uh...more like $45 million more...
…the Phillies payroll that is. They will wind up in the neighborhood of $140 million and we’ll be around $95 million.
Careful, that’s what we said LAST year. Arguments about addition by subtraction aside, we have heard that before.
but we didn’t add by subtracting last year…we got worse in one position (LF) and worse in RF than the year before…we subtracted by adding in that situation.
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Dec 28, 2009 8:22 PM EST up reply actions
Wow, gondee, vent much?
That analysis is weak and ignores the huge differences between Melky and Franceour, including the obvious OBP differences and the obvious role differences—-Franceour was supposed to be a middle of the order force, Melky is a good fourth OF, but nothing more. Don’t get me wrong, if the Cubs will overpay for Melky, by all means we should ship him to Chicago. But keeping him isn’t the doomsday scenario you mention. I am not looking for a breakout season, and the Braves’ FO comments seem to echo this as they are not even pencilling him in as a starter yet.
If for example, Heyward came up early and mashed, I think we would do pretty well with McLouth, Diaz and Heyward as the starters and Melky as the fourth OF.
Finally, this is baseball. It is December 28th. It certainly isn’t a game of right now unless you are worried about winter league standings in the Caribbean.
He's not the 4th OF full time...
he’s a solid switch hitter, about league average, and once Heyward or Schafer are ready provides the flexibility to work McLouth or Diaz or him in a deal for the best offer. As for the French comparisons, maybe. But French’s hype was in Atlanta, and Melky’s was in New York. I’m not sure the hype/aura comparisons are applicable to the two in new locations, or at least French here vs. Melky here.
why not? We paid a full time OFer $2M last season, and you see what that got us in return!
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Dec 28, 2009 5:28 PM EST up reply actions
This
If we are going to spend this kind of money on a bench bat, I think I would prefer Church or KJ (not that I like any of these options over $1 mil). Not to mention the fact that I’d also rather have Gonzo or Soriano rather than Saito, if we’re throwing away $2 – $3 mil on a bench player. Just sayin’.
"…aren’t worthy enough to hold his (Pujols) ass cheeks apart while Playboy models wipe him with thousand dollar bills after he craps out the cure to whatever previously-incurable disease." by royhobbs 1/7/09
Saito was a stupid move. I still don’t get why we did that… besides to get KK a best friend.
I used to like Frank Wren...not anymore. I want John Schierholz back!
by Scott Coleman on Dec 28, 2009 5:43 PM EST up reply actions
That move made no sense
I saw Bobby Howry sign with ’zona last week for $2-3M and wept. Much younger and less of an injury risk than Saito. Calero is still out there, too. I would have gone after Calero then Howry hard before even giving Saito a thought.
But that should be a warning sign…Calero is still out there – there has to be a reason for that…
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Dec 28, 2009 8:22 PM EST up reply actions
maybe. but the market for his type of arm has already been set, so one would think that there is something else…unless of course, he just has a bad agent who insists on asking for more than the market allows at this point.
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Dec 28, 2009 9:24 PM EST up reply actions
Because he's got a great track record and was much cheaper than many of the "better closers."
Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.
by MichaelProcton on Jan 4, 2010 1:46 PM EST up reply actions
Why would you expect him to get $4 mil?
Compare him to a guy like Wily Mo Pena, who’s never managed more than $2 million in arbitration. Do Cabrera’s numbers look any better?
Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.
by MichaelProcton on Jan 4, 2010 1:45 PM EST up reply actions
I don't really want us to trade Melky
But I’m not the GM.
Anyways, no one on the Cubs’ MLB roster really intrigues me, and their farm system doesn’t have much to offer. However, there are a few good prospects buried in there. Josh Vitters was recently ranked their 3rd-best prospect by BA, and he plays 3rd base. Maybe we could work out a deal for him. He could serve as a future replacement to Chipper. Vitters also hits right-handed, and he could help balance out what could eventually be a lefty-heavy lineup with Heyward, Freeman, Schafer, and McCann.
Vitters is really the only guy in their organization that interests me; however, Aramis Ramirez is set to become a free agent after this year with a hefty player option for 2011, so the Cubs may want to hang on to Vitters.
If the Cubs would prefer the Melkman in CF, rather than Marlon Byrd or Scott Podsednik, they should give FW a ring.
I find it hard to believe that the Cubs would have no players worthy of our interest.
I like ’em too, but the Cubs would have to be nuts to consider trading top prospects for Melky.
by FineHamAbounds on Dec 29, 2009 2:22 PM EST up reply actions
I'd have no problem with us trading Melky...
or anybody if the price was right, even McCann or Hanson provided the price is right.
exactly… its just that the price for McCann or Hanson is so high no one would sensibly pay it… if they did… then u have to take the deal. Like Per Se Mauer (with a contract extension) for McCann… wouldnt we have to take that deal (or at least give it close consideration)
Heyward,Hanson,and Shaffer r ready now!! Why do you think they havent signed the "right handed bat"?
by fatazfoot on Jan 7, 2009 8:59 PM EST
knowing Frank Wren's cold heartedness
=> He will trade McCann to the Red Sox for a package of Jacoby Ellsbury + Bucholtz + Lower arm or two
=> Flip Bucholtz along with Freeman and Delgado for A-Gonz
=> Deal Prado and Schafer for Cuddyer
=> Sign Orlando Hudson
2010 Braves:
1. Ellsbury CF
2. Hudson 2B
3. Chipper 3B
4. Cuddyer LF
5. A-Gonz 1B
6. Escobar SS
7. Heyward RF
8. Ross C
We win the WS.
by drumzalicious on Dec 29, 2009 2:09 AM EST up reply actions
Ba-dum chhh!
"...Braves tie! ...Braves tie! ...Braves tie!"
by The Keith Lockhart Era on Dec 29, 2009 1:40 PM EST up reply actions
What a mess.
I think you just came twice at once.
Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.
by MichaelProcton on Jan 4, 2010 2:00 PM EST up reply actions
I don’t seem to despise Melky Cabrera as much as some around here (in fact, I don’t really despise him), but I agree, his value to the organization may very well be in what he can bring in a trade. Just as the Yankees threw him in on the Vazquez trade (of which I’m certain), maybe Frank Wren in turn can re-gift him to another team. That may have been his plan all along.
any interest?
Cubs have a utility man, Jeff Baker, 28 yrs old, 1b, 2b, 3b, 5 yrs of service, made $415,000 in 2009, career #‘s are .270/.326/.456/.782 in 764 AB. With all of our injury reparation projects and lack of minor league infield depth, another decent utility infielder might not be a bad idea. He’ll be hitting arbitration soon.
Baker's career numbers...
…are Coors inflated, IIRC.
Correct.
.909 OPS there, barely .800@Wrigley (the only other place he’s played more than 15 times.)
Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.
by MichaelProcton on Jan 4, 2010 2:03 PM EST up reply actions
Here we go again
First, I want to state that I completely agree that if we can get some value from the Cubs for Cabrera, it would probably be worth. However, I’m completely stumped as to why you continually try to link Melky and Francoeur together, Gondee? The Francoeur we got rid of was not near the player that he was when he first came into the league and isn’t near the player Cabrera is now. Sure, Francoeur’s career averages are somewhat similar to Cabrera but you can’t keep a straight face and say Francoeur would ever put up a .740 OPS with the Braves. We got rid of a .640 OPS player which is not even in the same planet as Cabrera.
In other words
We ask the cubs “¿quieres leche?”
Nothing great was ever achieved without enthusiasm.
-Ralph Waldo Emerson
by GoBravesNY on Dec 28, 2009 5:51 PM EST via mobile reply actions
nice post gondeee
i agree completely
"If I have asthma, they won't let me scuba. And if I can’t scuba, then what’s this all been about?? What am I working toward??"
I still think we should’ve waited Lowe out. I like the Vasquez trade but not as much as i would’ve liked to see 200+ K’s, 17-20 W’s, and a sub 3 ERA leading our staff next year. The only reason Melky sounds as attractive as he does is because of the pinstripes he had on last year. Bye Melky. Don’t we have enough 4th outfielders anyway?
He's pretty good in 'The Show'....
by lemke2blauser2bream on Dec 28, 2009 6:28 PM EST reply actions
238 K’s and 2.87 ERA in 09…but you’re right, he only won 15. Also, JJ and Hanson should be leading our staff next year.
He's pretty good in 'The Show'....
by lemke2blauser2bream on Dec 28, 2009 7:58 PM EST up reply actions
Those numbers were in a career year.
I would assume the K’s remain, they have always been there, but I would guess the ERA would end up between 3.20-3.60.
If he puts up an ERA under 4.30 next year in New York
I’ll be rather surprised. Love the guy, wish he was still in ATL, but it’s gonna be a long year for the guy.
"...Braves tie! ...Braves tie! ...Braves tie!"
by The Keith Lockhart Era on Dec 29, 2009 1:42 PM EST up reply actions
Sorry, if I wasn't clear.
I was talking about a hypothetical year of Vazquez in Atlanta in 2010. In the bandbox in New York, I would guess anywhere from 3.50-4.50.
Makes sense, and I'd agree with you entirely.
I wouldn’t expect 2010 ATL Javy to go sub 3.00 ERA with 240 strikeouts again. I’d say you’re right about on point with the 3.20-3.60. But either way, with the pretty clear Arizona exception, Javy in the NL is a dramatically different pitcher than Javy in the AL.
"...Braves tie! ...Braves tie! ...Braves tie!"
by The Keith Lockhart Era on Dec 29, 2009 7:10 PM EST up reply actions
Not really.
He wasn’t particularly special in Montreal. Sub-.500 record, ERA over 4.
Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.
by MichaelProcton on Jan 4, 2010 2:07 PM EST up reply actions
i think he would put ‘009 numbers in ’010….he just looked more comfortable on the mound for atlanta…also going into a contract year?….but hes NYY’s problem now..
He's pretty good in 'The Show'....
by lemke2blauser2bream on Jan 4, 2010 4:43 PM EST up reply actions
even if he is
he is still better than lowe…if there was even a remote chance of moving lowe instead, that would have been better.
"If I have asthma, they won't let me scuba. And if I can’t scuba, then what’s this all been about?? What am I working toward??"
Some rumor came out that we would’ve had to eat almost half of Lowe’s contract and the Yankees were the only team willing to trade for a pitcher making 10+ mil
actually
teams were asking us to eat half at the minimum if not more than that
by drumzalicious on Dec 28, 2009 9:38 PM EST up reply actions
This would mean that no team would be willing to sign Lowe to anything more than a 3 year, 22.5 million dollar deal if he was a free agent right now. Less than 8 million per year. I just find that very hard to believe, reports or not.
Doesn’t mean I think it would have been better to trade Lowe if we had to pay any of his contract at all, or even if it was a straight dump. Still, the eating half the contract report just seems implausible to me. Goes without saying that I could be very wrong.
by Sir Stealth on Dec 28, 2009 10:05 PM EST up reply actions
The Braves had a couple of problems in moving either guy:
1. Lowe: his age and size of contract were factors, obviously, but the perception that Atlanta HAD to move him meant that the Braves had little leverage… so teams righty had their hands out looking for cash.
2. Vaz: $11.5mill was one factor, but how many teams (in thi$ market) were gonna pay that for a likely 1-yr. rental? In the case of the Yankees, that’s their price of an average pitcher.
Overall, look who’s bought big money pitching this off season: Yanks (JV, Pettite), RSox (Lackey), Brewers (Wolf; surprise), Phils (sort of) and the Mariners (Lee). Even the Phils weren’t willing to spend more (less than JV’s price) to keep Lee for 2010 when they got Doc H.. That’s it. So what options existed for Atlanta? In a normal year, maybe the Dodgers would step up, but not now. The Orioles got Millwood (subsidized by TX) and Gonzo. Everybody wants pitching but isn’t willing to pay for it.
I wish we could have grabbed more for JV, but I’m wondering now if this wasn’t a pretty good deal given the circumstances. Most analysts have noted that we got more than Philly got for Lee.
Except for the fact that there's nothing to trade in a free agent signing.
Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.
by MichaelProcton on Jan 4, 2010 2:08 PM EST up reply actions
That’s really the point then, isn’t it? We TRIED to move Lowe and couldn’t. We needed money to sign another bat, so we trade Vazquez. We also got a good prospect for him.
Diaz, I assume…maybe Infante too?
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Dec 28, 2009 9:33 PM EST up reply actions
...because you can definitely count on him hitting those numbers.
What with his one sub-3.00 ERA and ZERO 17-win seasons in 12 ML seasons, he was nearly a lock.
Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.
by MichaelProcton on Jan 4, 2010 2:05 PM EST up reply actions
"200+ K’s, 17-20 W’s, and a sub 3 ERA leading our staff next year"
Javy wasn’t the only member of our staff capable of such a season, hence one of the reasons he was dealt.
What would we or could we get from Chicago for Melky?? Not totally familiar with everything
they have.I kinda think that the statement “The Braves have always liked melky” may come into play here and we may see him as part of the team, still going to agree and say that his biggest trade value is now.
Cubs top prospects (cite: Baseball America/november)
1. Starlin Castro, ss
2. Brett Jackson, of
3. Josh Vitters, 3b
4. Andrew Cashner, rhp
5. Jay Jackson, rhp
6. Hak-Ju Lee, ss
7. Logan Watkins, 2b
8. Chris Carpenter, rhp — nope, not that one!
9. Ryan Flaherty, ss/2b/3b
10. D.J. LeMahieu, ss/2b
i wonder if we could get a 3b prospect since we are lite in that department
"If I have asthma, they won't let me scuba. And if I can’t scuba, then what’s this all been about?? What am I working toward??"
Flaherty could be nice. He’s 6’3" 200 and while he’s a good SS the belief is he’s not athletic enough for it. With that size he’d be good at 3B. Apparently he has a really nice lefty swing and is expected to develop some power (20 homers this year is a good start). But, he was 22 in low A so he was a bit old for the league. Still, he’d be a nice addition to the IF depth.
I wrote a novel, it's about baseball, you should buy it: https://www.createspace.com/3407939
www.dropoutproductions.com
Too bad Fox has already been traded.
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Dec 28, 2009 8:23 PM EST up reply actions
Dang, you’re right there — I forgot about him. There’s a guy who can rake, but needs to be learn a position to play full-time.
He has a perfect position on Oakland – DH.
I wanted him last year, but where do you play a guy like that in the NL?
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Dec 28, 2009 8:31 PM EST up reply actions
He is pretty bad there too though.
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Dec 28, 2009 9:50 PM EST up reply actions
hey man
im just thinking of where i would rather have my worst defender
by drumzalicious on Dec 28, 2009 9:54 PM EST up reply actions
lol…I am with ya, but from what I hear, he is like, REALLY bad there. Not sure if an NL team could actually hide him there.
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Dec 28, 2009 9:57 PM EST up reply actions
He sorta reminds me of Todd Hundley in the OF
"...Braves tie! ...Braves tie! ...Braves tie!"
by The Keith Lockhart Era on Dec 28, 2009 10:09 PM EST up reply actions
He had a funny answer to a radio interview. He was asked about what was his favorite position and he said something like headed to the bat rack.
lol
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Dec 30, 2009 11:40 AM EST up reply actions
hmm what about the Tigers?
I’m still on my lead off man quest. What about Carlos Guillen? Of course they would have to eat a sizeable amount of that contract but what do you guys think about him leading off for us
btw
he is more of a good OBP kinda lead off hitter
by drumzalicious on Dec 28, 2009 9:56 PM EST up reply actions
So i'm sitting here playing baseball mogul 2010..
and i’m in my 4th season in 2013..i’ve been trying to bridge the gap for some good starting pitching..i went over to the FA market to see what was available..thats when I noticed this..Nick Adenhart 2.69 era 15 wins 3 losses…what can you say. I signed him.
sadness
"If I have asthma, they won't let me scuba. And if I can’t scuba, then what’s this all been about?? What am I working toward??"
true. i was just like.. *gulp* i gotta take him.
by SidKotchman on Dec 28, 2009 10:11 PM EST up reply actions
The real question here is why was a guy like him available?
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Dec 28, 2009 10:12 PM EST up reply actions
All in favor of having B Jones on the roster before melky, say I
MATT DIAZ IS THE F**K*NG MAN.
They made me change my signature...
Agreed.
Putting Brandon Jones on the roster above Melky is just silly. He hasn’t shown better performance in the majors, although he admittedly has had limited playing time. The big issue however, is that neither should start and Melky makes a far better fourth OF because he can play all three position (BJones doesn’t play center) and is a switch hitter (BJones is a lefty).
+1
I’ve always been a Brandon Jones fan and I think he can give us some solid years as a low salary 4th outfielder. It wasn’t that long ago he was arguable the #1 prospect in the system. He doesn’t wow you with any of his skills but he does a lot of things well.
Very True. Plus, u gotta think that he has a lot more pop than Melky.
MATT DIAZ IS THE F**K*NG MAN.
They made me change my signature...
Yep. More pop. More speed. Probably similar defense and arm but Melky has a better hit tool right now. I think Jones will close that gap though when he gets more at-bats in AAA/Majors.
More ABs?
Hah. He’s had three seasons in AAA, and, if anything, he’s worse than when he first got there.
Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.
by MichaelProcton on Jan 4, 2010 2:17 PM EST up reply actions
Why?
The last time Cabrera was healthy and in AAA, he slugged .566. A lot easier to look good against AAA pitching than playing everyday for the Yankees.
Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.
by MichaelProcton on Jan 4, 2010 2:16 PM EST up reply actions
Anyone tell me what the heck happened with Brandon Jones this year? I believe it took him at least a half a year to hit his first homerun, and then he ended up with only 8 total.
-----
Braves Fan Since 1982. Go Braves!
"All opinions welcome..."
Didn’t he hit one in spring training last year?
"Hey Fat Kid...the monster is right behind you! RUNNNN!!" -The Host
by bwellnjonesco on Dec 29, 2009 1:55 PM EST up reply actions
LOL...
Arguably the #1 prospect? Who the hell was arguing?
Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.
by MichaelProcton on Jan 4, 2010 2:14 PM EST up reply actions
NOT I.
Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.
by MichaelProcton on Jan 4, 2010 2:12 PM EST up reply actions
Or I.
Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.
by MichaelProcton on Jan 4, 2010 2:17 PM EST up reply actions
lets start a Dan Uggla chant.
DA-NNY
UGG-LA
DA-NNY
UGG-LA
MATT DIAZ IS THE F**K*NG MAN.
They made me change my signature...
unless we can deal Melky for Uggla straight up i dont want him.
Then if we do that flip Uggla and a pitching prospect for Cuddyer!
by drumzalicious on Dec 29, 2009 2:10 AM EST up reply actions
cuddyer is injury prone
and his defense is horrendous in rf, not to sure about lf
by JasonHeywardisGod on Dec 29, 2009 2:56 AM EST up reply actions
i was kinda joking but not really at the same time and regardless of if its cuddyer or diaz they are going to be horrendous in RF
by drumzalicious on Dec 29, 2009 2:59 AM EST up reply actions
Lie!
Diaz is not horrendous in RF.
How can you say JF is getting worse than the garbage that is Milky? JF put up some good numbers to end the season.
What really strikes me about this debate is that JF was allowed to have 900 at bats with such horrid results. One of the many reasons I think Cox lost it a while ago. FW showed Tommy & Smoltz the door, he should’ve done the same to Cox.
I would not put it past Cox to pencil Milky in for 100-200 more at bats than his production dictates. I hope he’s traded soon.
Counter Lie!
While the sample size is admittedly small, Diaz’s UZR/150 in RF has not been good, to say the least. (-10.2). And just watching him play there last year wasn’t pretty.
It is easy to say Frenchy is getting worse than Melky. Even including Frenchy’s better earlier years, his career wOBA is essentially identical to Melky’s: .316 and .317. And wow, his 2008 and 2009 time with the Braves was downright abyssmal.
As for Melky, I hope we don’t make him the starter. He makes sense as a fourth OF. He should see plenty of time for Diaz against tough righties and McLouth against tough lefties. Heyward or a free agent signee should take the third OF spot.
saying this in every thread doesn’t make it sound any better.
"Matt Diaz is a baseball player."-Joe Simpson
Just who are you trying to convince here…
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Dec 29, 2009 4:39 PM EST up reply actions
Jason Bay agrees with the mets. FML.
Reyes
Castillo
Wright
Bay
Beltrán
French
Murphy
Molina?
Thank god they can’t pitch, that a pretty good F’ing lineup.
MATT DIAZ IS THE F**K*NG MAN.
They made me change my signature...
My first response is to cringe but then I remembered it was the Mets and they need a lot more than an all-star outfielder before they catch up with the rest of the field.
So, I guess Bay pretty much has to hit a HR, but all our batters now have to do is hit it to LF?
I wonder how many runs Bay will give away vs how many he will produce…
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Dec 29, 2009 2:51 PM EST up reply actions
about as unlikely as him hitting them out of...
Turner. He’s like Matt Holliday in that sense. Good when batting in ‘hitter friendly’ parks. Otherwise, run-of-the-mill.
maybe not so much for Bay as it is for...
Holliday. When Matt was in Colorado, he dialed long distance 20 – 30+ times per season. Then he played in Oakland (a pitcher’s park) where he hit ‘11’. He did however return to a semblance of good form when he got traded to St. Louis: ‘13’. The question that teams are debating now is: which Holliday are they gonna get if they signed him to a long term deal? I think they’re scared of making that move and it leads me to believe that that is also why he’s still a free agent and Bay is not.
He had one bad month to start the season, then turned it around.
He’s still a FA because he’s got a big contract (a better deal that the one Bay signed with the Mets) sitting on the table, and there isn’t anyone out there with enough payroll space to outbid it.
Matt Holliday
2007 at Coors – .376 .435 .722 1.157
2007 on the road – .301 .374 .485 .860
While his 2007 road numbers are certainly good, his overall numbers are inflated at Coors, as one could reasonably expect them to be. However, 25 home runs came at home while only 11 were hit on the road.
2008 at Coors – .332 .413 .584 .997
2008 on the road – .308 .405 .486 .892
Same thing here. Good numbers away still. He had 27 HRs at Coors and 10 on the road…in two seasons on the road he had a total of 21 HRs, while during the same two seasons at home, he had 52 HRs at Coors.
2009 by month
April – .240 .288 .360 .648 with 1 HR
May – .291 .416 .456 .872 with 5 HRs
June – .280 .374 .440 .814 with 2 HRs
July – .408 .487 .663 1.150 with 4 HRs
August – .303 .357 .606 .963 with 7 HRs
Sept – .326 .375 .526 .901 with 5 HRs
His numbers both at Coors and away from Coors are certainly nice. But, his HR total definitely takes a hit away from Coors, even though the OPS is still over .800
While I think Holliday is a fantastic hitter, I don’t think he can truly be considered any more of a legit power threat than someone like Brian McCann, who will also give you 20-30 HRs on the year. Holliday can’t really hit the long-ball exceptionally well outside of Coors. While he is still capable of hitting balls deep, he just wont give you 30+ HRs like people seem to think he will.
Oct -
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Dec 31, 2009 1:33 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Well, home/road splits are a good quick reference, but you can’t just assume that if a guy didn’t play at Coors he would simply get 162 games of his road numbers, some guys just hit better at home (which Holiday did again this year).
In the case of Holliday we got a year of data with him outside of COL. He was still a 5.7 WAR player last year (which was the 13th highest among position players), in spite of having an awful April (supposedly he was experimenting with his swing early on).
Excluding his April numbers he went .323/.408/.536 with 23 HR in 138 games. He might not have “elite” power, but he’s still got what it takes to be a top player in terms of overall value.
Isn't the new Busch Stadium also pretty HR friendly?
Add in the contract push, I can understand the doubt that Holliday will be worth the money he’s wanting.
Another way to look at it:
Matt Holliday, 2006 wOBA: 409
Matt Holliday, 2007 wOBA: 428
Matt Holliday, 2008 wOBA: 418
Matt Holliday, 2009 wOBA: 390
Maybe a slight drop, but still a pretty damn good hitter no matter where he plays. (2007 also coincided with his age-27 year, BTW.)
If Albert played in the AFL, they’d have to rename it the AZ/NM Fall League, based on where his homers landed.
Roughly $16.5 mill per year for Bay. Wow.
St. Louis is now freaking out over Holliday’s coming counter-offer… but if not the Cards, then who will even bid? the Red Sox?
Meanwhile, it’ll be interesting to see if Reyes and Wright can bounce back this year. I assume the Frenchy will revert to (pre-summer 2009) form.
It seems to me that the reason the Mets have not done well every year despite their huge payrolls is that they don’t necessarily bring people in who are the best fit. It seems like all they want to do is improve the entertainment value of the club.
Funny that the Yankees have figured it out. For years they did the same thing, practically signing every big free agent that hit the market whether or not they needed them. I realize they more or less do the same thing now but at least they aren’t signing multiple first basemen for example.
Not like the Mets could not have used Bay, but it might have improved the club more to sign two $8.5 million players since the club needs more than 1 guy to improve their chances against the Phillies. They still have this bloated payroll, a depleted minor league system, and a lot of holes.
Guess they made up for losing Delgado in a big way so maybe they are back to square 1 with their losing season last year (???) They might be better off dumping players and starting over.
-----
Braves Fan Since 1982. Go Braves!
"All opinions welcome..."
good
now ppl will stop saying for us to sign him.
also i think beltran will be hitting 3rd
by drumzalicious on Dec 29, 2009 3:40 PM EST up reply actions
Possible Trade Partners for the Melkma
Cubs
Brewers?
Tigers
Padres (they need alot but their is a new GM that’s familiar with Melky)
So not to many takers for a GOOD defensive OF with a decent bat and I’m not sure if the Padres are looking for anything before lat Feb.
Remaining Free Agents
Holliday
Damon
Byrd
Winn
Podsednick
Ankiel
Church
Gross
Nady
and the list goes on. I honestly don’t see us dumping Melky to anyone as he will cost a player and about the same in money. I think Melky will be a fine OF and 8 Hole hitter until Heyward comes up.
I doubt the Brewers would be interested. They have Braun-Gomez-Hardy. Melky is better than Gomez, but how bad would it look if they benched Gomez.
by blitzerlover on Dec 29, 2009 5:27 PM EST up reply actions
I would not be surprised that the Braves find a way to keep Melky. They always seem to have at least one guy on the club who under performs by a huge margin. I was wondering since October where that weak hitting guy was going to come from. ;-)
-----
Braves Fan Since 1982. Go Braves!
"All opinions welcome..."
how sad is it that i just realized my profile pic is now out of date?
i might keep it anyway…unless i find another creepy one
"If I have asthma, they won't let me scuba. And if I can’t scuba, then what’s this all been about?? What am I working toward??"
OK, somebody explain this to me.
All the Melky supporters keep talking about what a great 4th outfielder he’ll be. Ummm, why are we willing to pay 3 million or whatever Melky gets in arbitration for a 4th outfielder? The Mets, Phillies, Yankees, they can afford that crap, the Braves can’t. We have Brandon Jones for cheap, what is the point in keeping Melky? We wouldn’t keep Kelly Johnson as a utility player for around 3 million after arb and ended up losing him to the D’Backs for a little over 2 mil, but a 4th outfielder with zero power is worth 3 million and a roster spot?
Shouldn't Reid Gorecki get a shot in RF before that Heyward kid everybody talks about?
I disagree.
And I don’t consider myself a Melky supporter, but I guess since I don’t think we should dump him for nothing you would consider me a Melky supporter.
A fourth OF for $3 million is not a particular over or under pay. A tad high perhaps, but hardly unbearable. The Cubs are a team with a similar sized payroll and they paid $3 million to Reed Johnson to be a fourth OF last year. Endy Chavez got $2 million and change from the Mariners last year. Jody Gerut got $1.75 million from the Pads/Brewers to be a fourth OF. Not the best use of money, but not horrible and not out of the general range paid to fourth OF.
Your points about Melky are either incorrect or miss the point:
1. He doesn’t have “no power”. His 162 gm. average is 10 HR. Not a huge amount of power, but not “no power” ala the Rafael Belliards and Otis Nixons of the world.
2. You just say Brandon Jones is cheap and could be just as good a fourth OF, but you fail to note that he (Jones) doesn’t play center and isn’t a switch hitter (he’s a lefty). So, if we used him for fourth OF and just dumped Melky, if McLouth had a two-week DL stint (and Schafer wasn’t ready) or if we just wanted to give McLouth a day off against a tough lefty (look at McLouth’s splits, not so pretty against lefties), Jones wouldn’t be able to fill that duty, while Melky would.
The reason I like Melky as a fourth OF is that he can play all three positions and is a switch-hitter. Sure, it would be nice if he had more power or was just better. But he’s not; that’s why he’s a fourth OF and not a starter. He is pretty average, but versitile for an OF.
Comparing Melky to Kelly Johnson is pointless. Since his arm troubles, Johnson hasn’t played the OF and it is questionable whether he could. Even if he could, he would be more expensive than Melky—-both are in the same year of arbitration and Johnson made twice as much as Melky last year ($2.8 million to $1.4 million). Melky would have started to catch up, but probably would have been $500K to $1 million cheaper in arbitration. Why we didn’t resign Kelly Johnson after releasing him is beyond me, but I would guess it might not have been possible. The rumors I heard were that Johnson had gotten better offers but signed with Arizona because they were going to give him a starting job. Obviously, we weren’t going to offer that to him.
by cavebird on Dec 30, 2009 10:26 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Good points all around.
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Dec 30, 2009 10:29 AM EST up reply actions
I think requirement #1 for the 4th OF is to be able to provide good defense in CF.
Omar Infante is not able to provide good defense in CF, IMO.
Melky doesn’t either. Above average at the corners, but below average in center. Maybe average on a good day.
Not that we’d notice a difference, McLouth is pretty unspectacular in center as well, though I’d wager he’d be a fine corner man (in left that is, his puny arm is not built for right).
Cabrera has been at or above average in each of the last two years.
0.8 UZR150 in ‘08
2.3 UZR150 in ’09
That’s 1700+ innings there.
Further, he’s trended upwards each year in the majors. I’d wager to say he’s decent at worst.
Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.
by MichaelProcton on Jan 4, 2010 3:41 PM EST up reply actions
why not dye?
We just spent a year with Garrett Anderson in left field, I’m not sure Anderson wouldn’t be better than Dye. Dye can still handle the bat pretty well, but he’s getting a little old for left field in my opinion. I’d rather see the Braves go with Diaz, McLouth, Heyward, Cabrera in the outfield and get another super utility for the infield for depth, regular off days and in case of injury.
Why not Jermaine Dye?
Because his defense is flat-out atrocious. His UZR numbers for the past four years have been consistently twice as bad as Garrett Anderson’s were last year. That’s really bad. Uggla has not played OF before (and may not in Atlanta) but he can’t be any worse than that. Uggla has also been a much more consistent hitter than Dye.
He is terrible defensively and he had an awful second half. Even worse than Chippers.
by blitzerlover on Dec 30, 2009 5:28 PM EST up reply actions
Why not...Frank Thomas?
If Albert played in the AFL, they’d have to rename it the AZ/NM Fall League, based on where his homers landed.
I heard Rickey Henderson was still looking for a LF job…
by FineHamAbounds on Jan 2, 2010 4:19 PM EST up reply actions
FUGA again in 2010….
see, it rhymes….lol
He's pretty good in 'The Show'....
by lemke2blauser2bream on Jan 2, 2010 4:40 PM EST up reply actions
as bad as FUGA was...
Matt Diaz in 08 was worse, and we have people saying he should be our starting leadoff hitter.
But look at the whole body of work, not just his worst season. Matt Diaz was pretty much an everyday player last season and he cashed in greatly.
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Jan 3, 2010 1:27 PM EST up reply actions
No he wasn't....
Diaz was not an everyday player. He started some the first month until GA was healthy, then went back to a bench role until July after French was dealt, and even then split starts with Church. He started a grand total 92 games last year (just over 56% of the season). That’s 14 more games than Jeff Francouer started for us last year, and 10 more than Nate McLouth. Ryan Church had another 34 starts, 48 for Jordan Schafer, and Garrett Anderson had 123.
Over the 2nd half, Diaz was an everyday player.
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Jan 3, 2010 2:12 PM EST up reply actions
He only started 56 games in the second half...
which is more frequent than normal and more frequent than his first half, but still not “an everyday player”. Ryan Church and others were still splitting time with him in the second half. Are you really basing this argument on his second half, as many times as you’ve ranted and railed against judging Kelly Johnson for a similar number of at bats?
And I’m not trying to bash Diaz, but asking folks be a little more realistic with what they’re looking at. He may be able to maintain his pace as a part time player when playing full time, but he has never started 100 games, never gotten 375 at bats, and in 4 years here has never progressed past being a part time/platoon player. Maybe he’s finally ready for a full time gig, I hope so. But the odds are still probably much stronger that he’s back on the bench or in a part time role on July 1 than closing in on that 100 start/375 at bat threshold.
Pretty sure I am not making any argument other than Diaz was one of our main OFers in the 2nd half, starting in most of the 2nd half games.
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Jan 3, 2010 3:34 PM EST up reply actions
But ...
“main OFers in the 2nd half, starting in most of the 2nd half games” is not the same as “everyday player”, it just means he’s getting the majority of reps in the platoon.
by like a 3:1 ratio or so.
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Jan 3, 2010 10:03 PM EST up reply actions
for half a season...
again, he started 92 games, aka 56% of the year. 56% of games or just 10 games more than half. Pick your half however you like, the fact remains the man still has never started 100 games, has only one season with even 80 starts, and has never logged 375 at bats in a single year.
And none of that has anything to do with the original post...
here that said 2009 FUGA was more productive than 2008 Diaz.
LOL...
Pretty much an everyday player? He didn’t even have have 400 ABs.
Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.
by MichaelProcton on Jan 4, 2010 3:42 PM EST up reply actions
Melky or Nate?
Considering Melky for trade bait might not be the best move the Braves could make. Melky made $1.4 mil in 2009, McLouth will make $4.5 in 2010, $6.5 in 2011 and has an option for $10.5 in 2012. If Schafer is beyond his injury by July, why not consider trading McLouth at the deadline to save $ and bring in what we need at that time? Maybe I’m wrong, but I like the idea of Heyward, Schafer and Freeman changing the face of the Braves in 2010 and 2011 from old injury-riddled players to an exciting, youth filled team. Half the starters and 2/5ths of the rotation would be under 25 yrs old or younger in 2011.
clarification
half the starters and 2/5ths of the rotation would be 25 yrs old or younger in 2011.
Why decide now?...
Let’s see how Melky does for 2-3 months in the NL, how Diaz does as an everyday starter again, if McLouth can bounce back to his All Star form, then decide who goes to make room for the kids.
That makes good sense. Melky in the NL might be better than a 4th outfielder, or he could be a waste of time. I’m ready for Heyward to get to Atlanta. I watched him in Chattanooga in August, by the end of the 1st inning, he had a triple, an RBI, a run scored and had thrown out a runner at the plate from right field. Bringing in Dye or Nady and holding Heyward back seems like lunacy to me. I like the thought of Diaz starting in left, he’ll butcher a few plays, but he gives ‘em hell at the plate. I like McLouth just fine, power, speed and decent center field is ok with me. I just think he has to be considered tradeable if Schafer gets able to play like he’s been projected.
Chatt Baseball
Big River Beer Garden on the 3rd base side is the place to watch the game. Bar stools, tables and the sun’s not in your eyes. Mississipi comes to town May 10-14 or 11-15, can’t remember exactly. $4 general admission and Braves prospects, I’ll be there.
Comments For This Post Are Closed
Secondary Sidebar
User Tools
FanPosts
Community blog posts and discussion.
Recommended FanPosts
Recent FanPosts
In Association With
Big League Stew - MLB - Yahoo! Sports
- Shane Victorino lands role on ‘Hawaii Five-0′
- Have you criticized Hanley Ramirez on Twitter? Your name may be on his bat!
- U.S. senator cries foul over Nationals plans to take back park from Phillies fans
- Photo: Comerica Park readies itself for Hockeytown
- Podcast: Dirk Hayhurst talks about Italy, the reality of the big leagues and his new book
Certain photos copyright © 2012 by Associated Press or Getty Images. Any commercial use or distribution without the express written consent of Associated Press and Getty Images is strictly prohibited.
