More Notes and Reactions from the Braves - Yankees Trade
by gondeee on Dec 22, 2009 3:52 PM EST
in Braves Trade News
63 comments
I just got off the con-call with Frank Wren about today's trade which brought Melky Cabrera, Mike Dunn, and Arodys Vizcaino from the Yankees to the Braves in exchange for Javier Vazquez and Boone Logan -- the second straight year in which Vazquez and Logan have been involved in the same trade. Here are some highlights of that call, all rough quotes of Frank Wren:
"We knew that we would have an extra pitcher that would allow us to improve our club in other areas."
They liked Melky's "versatility to play all three outfield positions."
The Braves had a "lot of interest in Arodys when he was an international free agent."
Going forward to fill the open spots on the team, specifically first base, Wren is "open to what may be out there." It sounds like they won't rush any move.
Wren has already talked with Derek Lowe after he made those comments to MLB.com, and it sounds like they've smoothed things over.
There was no magic to the timing of the trade, they just "felt like they had a real good match," with the Yankees after exploring their options over the last two months. Talks began over the weekend.
Wren made it sound like Melky will play all three outfield spots, spelling the starters as sort of a super-fourth outfielder who will get into 130-140 games.
Overall I didn't get any indication that they have anything else brewing, and Wren didn't tip his cap in any way, even though David O'Brien did a good job of trying to get him to.
As a side note to the trade, I'd like to mention that I called this back at the beginning of October:
The odds are best that Vazquez is the guy to go.
Okay, I'm done tooting my own horn. Here are some reactions to the trade:
- Mark Bradley of the AJC thinks this is the worst move in Atlanta or Georgia sports all year.
- Over the Monster, a Red Sox blog, thinks the Yankees one-upped the Sox.
- River Avenue Blues believes that this gives Vazquez a second chance to get it right in New York, but he may have to face the demons of his last game in pinstripes in his first start.
- Dave Cameron of Fan Graphs says not to hate this deal for Atlanta, that we came out okay.
- Pinstripe Alley likes the new look of the Yankees stacked rotation.
- Kevin Goldstein of Baseball Prospectus tweets "Any headline on this trade that does not mention Arodys Vizcaino is totally missing the point."
I think it's time for a poll, now that we've had a chance to digest the news.
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Melky + TP = trainwreck
Somebody around here is more anal than the mom on 7th heaven. Freakin' A. lol
(self-appointed President of Yunel's Cartel~~~)
by Chief Noc-A-Homa on Dec 22, 2009 3:56 PM EST reply actions
Melky is actually the type of hitter that generally thrives under TP
Line-drive hitters with a despicable combination of no power or patience. That’s basically what TP was and that’s the kind of hitter that he’s best at working with, honestly. See Prado, Martin.
Of course, Melky Cabrera sucks, and I’m not saying he’s going to turn into Ted Williams under TP. I just don’t think TP will be a hindrance to Cabrera.
http://www.capitolavenueclub.com/
Just looking at the econo-sabermetrics
It looks like a good deal for the Braves.
http://www.capitolavenueclub.com/
Maybe not a great deal...
but definitely not a bad one.
People need to lighten up a little.
by Kelly's Big Johnson on Dec 22, 2009 4:06 PM EST up reply actions
how to you dare to say this is a good deal for the braves?!?!?!?!?!!!?!??!?!? did you have marihuana in your food or something like that? Vazquez was our best starter and we traded him and look who we got in return: MELKY FUCKIN CABRERA is that the big bat all atlanta wanted to see NO… not even close, i dont even want melky cabrera starting, i think diaz, mclouth, and heyward are much better than that piece of shit. frank wren is a horrible manager just because of this trade, and the braves organization was living up to expectations and we were very close to get to the playoffs and if wren was intelligent enough he could have put the braves favorite in the NL East… but no he made this crap trade that will put us like 4th in our division behind the muts, the marlins, and the philies… we got 9MM back but they still say that Bay and Holliday are too pricey?? wren needs to stop being too conservative about the price, we have enough money to at least get one of them AND get someone like Delgado or Glaus, but apparently no, wren wants to go after johnny damon or xavier nady and not big bats because apparently they are too pricey, bullshit. wren just threw this organization down the drain and to hell and i want to watch another manager put the braves back in front. if wren does not get a big bat and a productive bat this winter he’s gotta go… thank you for reading this now peace
12/22/09- The day Frank Wrong sent the braves organization down the drain and to hell
by Kobe:The Legend on Dec 22, 2009 5:33 PM EST up reply actions
generic comment of digust
I mix your Melk with my cocoa puffs, Melky Melky cocoa puffs.
by VivaLosBravos on Dec 22, 2009 8:31 PM EST up reply actions
Shut up.
Overheard in press box, from local reporter: 'If this Moore kid was any good, they'd be up 31-0 right now.'
--Darin Gantt, on CAR@NE
by MichaelProcton on Dec 22, 2009 9:45 PM EST up reply actions
Oh the joys of over reaction and glossing over names you haven’t heard of (like Vizcaino and Dunn).
This kind of chicken litte crap is super rampant over on the AJC DOB blog.
by bbxxj on Dec 23, 2009 8:24 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Any chance we trade Arodys Vizcaino for this:
Here are Pujols's stats: 1.000/1.000/4.000/5.000. That's right. He is batting a thousand, with a thousand OBP (naturally), and every hit has been a home run, and thus his OPS is a perfect 5.000.
Does Mark Bradley ever like anything?
Holy fuck.
I used to like Frank Wren...not anymore. I want John Schierholz back!
by mvhsbball on Dec 22, 2009 4:14 PM EST via mobile reply actions
In the end....
the Braves have money, prospects and options.At worst, he rebuys LaRoche and we are where we ended 2009 minus Javy, plus Hudson and a kid we apparently have had an eye on.Oppps… forgot ,and Melky “freakin” Cabrera.
That's it!!!!
er nope… we cant even get Zevon to play 1st base anymore.
by mikie baseball on Dec 22, 2009 7:53 PM EST up reply actions
Holy Cr*p!!
If we’re going to turn into the Pirates, I wish the Braves brass would just admit it, instead of stringing us along.
Let the 20 year rebuilding cycle begin.
Gave Up:
Javier Vazquez = 5.1 WAR
Wash
Logan – $$ = Dunn
Receive (hypothetical, but doable)
Cabrera = 1.4 WAR
LaRoche = 2.0 WAR
Kelly Johnson = 1.9 WAR
Prospect Future Value = ?
I think you guys are overreacting a little bit. Within the context of who we can sign with this freed up money, I think this trade will be ok. I know I added LaRoche and KJ… fill in with who you will, but you could easily make up the WAR values with the extra funds we now have.
BTW – Lowe has a WAR value of 3.9.
by Kelly's Big Johnson on Dec 22, 2009 4:31 PM EST reply actions
I'd guess Dunn will provide more WAR over the life of his remaining controlled years than Logan.
Probably by a lot.
Overheard in press box, from local reporter: 'If this Moore kid was any good, they'd be up 31-0 right now.'
--Darin Gantt, on CAR@NE
by MichaelProcton on Dec 22, 2009 9:47 PM EST up reply actions
I don't know if Dunn is better than Logan...
..but I do know that he really can’t be worse. So Dunn at worst = Logan and we save $1 million.
Especially with the 500K the Yankees gave us, we basically get Dunn for free this year.
I wrote a novel, it's about baseball, you should buy it: https://www.createspace.com/3407939
www.dropoutproductions.com
that is if we don't go with...
Chavez and another to fill the last two spots in the bullpen, and he’s in AAA all year (as I’d assume he’d get less than half a mil to be a middle reliever for Gwinnett)
by Mr. Sanchez on Dec 23, 2009 12:31 AM EST up reply actions
Either way, it’s paying Chavez or another guy’s minimum salary. Still, somebody on the roster is free for 2010.
I wrote a novel, it's about baseball, you should buy it: https://www.createspace.com/3407939
www.dropoutproductions.com
that they are. And considering...
Lowe required us taking on multiple million, the idea of getting paid on the deal is nice.
But your hypothetical situation replaces Javy's WAR over 3 roster spots.
Keeping Javy would likely still have had the Braves a positive WAR player in each of those spots anyway.
"We're just as bad as the old Mets, but this time nobody's laughing"
-Dallas Green
I'd like one more option on the fan poll...
“Too early to tell: waiting for the bat that this freed-up cash will provide.”
I picked meh for that.
Overheard in press box, from local reporter: 'If this Moore kid was any good, they'd be up 31-0 right now.'
--Darin Gantt, on CAR@NE
by MichaelProcton on Dec 22, 2009 9:47 PM EST up reply actions
wcubmac's deleted fanpost:
Vazquez gone.
Tiny by wcubmac on Dec 22, 2009 1:34 PM PST Comment 2 comments, 2 new
I don’t know if everyone has seen yet, but Vazquez and Boone Logan has been traded to the Yankees for Melky Cabrera and 2 prospects. At first I despised this deal, now I just hate it.
Just about everyone wanted Cabrera, just not Melky. I would have to say that this trade was probably made in despiration. It was obvious no one really wanted to swallow Lowes huge contract, and the Braves really need get things moving. I guess they could have tried to wait out the Yankees and Angels and hope that one team would want Lowe, but he wasn’t a priority to those teams.
Where do they go from here? I would like to think they should go ahead and offer Holliday a 5 year deal worth around 75 to 80 Million, and Bay a 4 year 60 million deal. Lets face it, what we need is a right handed, middle of the lineup guy. If we are willing to throw that much money at Lowe, why not one of those two, its what we need. We don’t have to worry about the Yankees or the Red Sox. They are both what we need, at the time we need them the most, and few teams are involved. They pass this up and it will be a mistake.
They could go after Derosa, Damon, Nady, or Byrd, but how much better are they than what we have now? More average players for what could be an average at best lineup. Add Holliday, and hopefully future superstar Heyward to it for the next 5 years, it would definatly not be refered to as average. Add Freeman next year and they are set. But, if they go after one of those others, it will be a problem again soon, if not this year than next.
It would have been nice to get rid of Lowes contract, but, lets say he has a normal Lowe like year, 15 wins, 3.5 ERA, he will be tradeable next offseason for sure. Next offseason they can focus what is going to happen after Chipper, and the usual bullpen arm and bench player.
All and all, the Vazquez trade isn’t horrible, but not what we expected. Their next move is what is going to be important. I would expect something would happen quick. I have to think Wren had a gameplan and now try to get it done now that his hands are no longer tied.
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This coudn’t have gone in the the 20 other treads on this topic?
by bbxxj on Dec 22, 2009 1:41 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
I guess it could have, but I didn’t read down every thread, thought I would start one.
by wcubmac on Dec 22, 2009 1:57 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
I wrote a novel, it's about baseball, you should buy it: https://www.createspace.com/3407939
www.dropoutproductions.com
This may be a deal that breaks even.
Not getting any better a hitter than we had in a pitcher. I don’t think it’s a bad deal. We need something, ANYTHING in left, and we’ve got so much pitching.
Never know how the prospects will turn out until the do or don’t.
Fanaticism is not logical
Voted great
because Japanese youth will realize that we traded our best player just to get KK back into the rotation. Every international FA for years will beg for a spot on the Braves roster.
I mix your Melk with my cocoa puffs, Melky Melky cocoa puffs.
Just can't see it
I vote bad deal….Yankee’s were not the ideal trading partners for this deal….I would not have minded Lowe for Milkey….but Wren’s number crunching was WWWWAAAAAYYYYY off on this one….JV’s value should have netted more meat….younger/ better starter (outfielder or infielder) plus a top (a year or two away) prospect
I still think Lowe can go but it would now have to be for a number 4 or 5 starter…like another JJ?
I wonder why he did not give the ANGELS more of a chance to make a deal…they for sure needed a starting pitcher worse than the Yankees…WTFFW
The trade wasn't for Melky.
It was for Vizcaino. Again, anyone who says that Teheran should be untouchable should love this trade, because Vizcaino is Teheran Mach II.
So much this
I am amazed by how many people think we made this trade for Melky. He was just a nice filler return for depth/roster purposes so we can focus on 1B knowing we have tons of depth in the OF.
Vazquez wouldn’t go to the Angels. I’d infer from some of the statements Wren made that the Angels wouldn’t take Lowe without the Braves paying some of his salary, which Wren wasn’t willing to do. Thus, the Angels weren’t a viable trade partner.
I wrote a novel, it's about baseball, you should buy it: https://www.createspace.com/3407939
www.dropoutproductions.com
I'd assume the winter meeting had Wren set up most of the talk...
seeing what he could get for Vasquez if it came down to it, and then what folks were feeling on Lowe. He probably heard everyone respond that Lowe would require us taking some salary, so he waited to see if anyone changed their mind after the Lackey deal and Halladay/Lee/etc came off the market. We waited, and waited, and no one changed their mind, so he was left with the only way to free up the salary he needed for a bat being Vasquez, and with the limited trade clause to no West teams, this was the best we had on the table. All in all, not a bad swap, and it becomes a great one if the young Ps pan out.
by Mr. Sanchez on Dec 23, 2009 12:35 AM EST up reply actions
how is this a great trade
it is like trading Vasquaz for 2 draft picks, they are so far away and might never amount to anything
and Vizcaino could become the next great young fireballer from the Dominican, we honestly don’t know so this trade could end up being great or terrible, but let’s wait it out and see. If Vizcaino comes close to his potential, I can guarantee no one here will be whining about this trade in 4 years or so
by McCann's the Man on Dec 22, 2009 10:21 PM EST up reply actions
Yes, Vizcaino is the draft pick, except he’s already signed, so you’re not spending millions on the bonus, plus he’s got a 2 year head start. So then is Dunn the other draft pick? Cause if so, same deal and he’s ML ready. Those are pretty good draft picks.
I wrote a novel, it's about baseball, you should buy it: https://www.createspace.com/3407939
www.dropoutproductions.com
Not exactly.
With a draft pick, you don’t know who you’re getting and you certainly don’t get a kid with professional experience. Viczaino has been blowing away equal-level prospects for two years now, and even improved from year one to year two.
Overheard in press box, from local reporter: 'If this Moore kid was any good, they'd be up 31-0 right now.'
--Darin Gantt, on CAR@NE
by MichaelProcton on Dec 23, 2009 1:26 AM EST up reply actions
Remember Jared Wright?
And there have been other pitchers that we `borrowed’ for a year or two who just happened to have `career’ years for us. Sometimes you can turn it into a profit, sometimes they just walk away or you lose on the deal. I loved Vazquez this past year. Would love to believe he would have a 2010 as good as 2009. It really isn’t likely though. This isn’t as though we traded Smoltz or Maddux. This is a career middle of the pack pitcher who had a great year. We turned it into profit. This isn’t the only move we are making. We still need a 1-baseman and we will have a left handed starting pitcher before the season begins. Give this a little time to settle and get a grip on your emotions. We may yet find another home for Lowe. But even if he starts for us this year he is a quality starter for his career.
Vazquez trade
How good or bad this trade turns out to be all hinges on
how good the prospects turn out to be. I remember
thinking, who is this Jair Jurrjens?
We wouldn’t have been able to keep Javier Vazquez
past 2010 anyway, he would have ended up where he
is now. It would have been a horrible move if we had
had Vazquez under contract for a few years.
We might have been able to keep him...
But we might also be able to get him after he bombs in NY this season.
Overheard in press box, from local reporter: 'If this Moore kid was any good, they'd be up 31-0 right now.'
--Darin Gantt, on CAR@NE
by MichaelProcton on Dec 23, 2009 2:19 PM EST up reply actions
THIS...
anyone focusing on Vasquez for Cabrera is ignoring that probably the two most valuable pieces in the deal are the Ps.
Very true – however, just because they are more important and good prospects does not necessarily mean that they were worth Javy, especially if we don’t use the extra $$. They may very well be what Wren determined was the best offer that we could get for any one pitcher that we were willing to part with. I’m just concerned that our team this year may suffer for it in a way that outweighs the benefit.
Just cause we don't spend the extra $ on free agents or a trade...
doesn’t mean we can’t put it to use through the draft, international signings, or elsewhere.
Vasquez
Unbelieveable. First they screw up signing Lowe for all that money and years. Now they try to cover it by trading their best pitcher (and Vasquez WAS their best) to dump a salary. The Braves management is a joke. A blind donkey could do a better job.
You’re ignorant.
I wrote a novel, it's about baseball, you should buy it: https://www.createspace.com/3407939
www.dropoutproductions.com
He's not NOT ignorant.
Overheard in press box, from local reporter: 'If this Moore kid was any good, they'd be up 31-0 right now.'
--Darin Gantt, on CAR@NE
by MichaelProcton on Dec 23, 2009 9:01 PM EST up reply actions
Really?
Why don’t you make you’re points instead of personal insults? Could it be YOU are the ignorant one? Yep.
My point is made all over Talking Chop, by me and plenty of other posters. I’m not going to go through every point about why you’re wrong when there’s ample opportunity to educate yourself (which is the definition of ignorance, being uneducated), particularly for a poster I’ve never seen before. I didn’t want to be a teacher in life and I don’t want to be one here. Read a little and find out why you’re so wrong.
I wrote a novel, it's about baseball, you should buy it: https://www.createspace.com/3407939
www.dropoutproductions.com
Expressing yourself
Too bad you didn’t learn any manners in all that time that you’ve been a teacher.
You are wrong in substance and method of expressing yourself.
Fail on both.
I’m not a teacher. Maybe this is part of your problem, reading comprehension.
I wrote a novel, it's about baseball, you should buy it: https://www.createspace.com/3407939
www.dropoutproductions.com
Even if true, it's not as bad as having no manners and can not see
that the Braves made a dumb move in trading Vasquez. Remember, this is the same organization which traded (gave away) Adam Wainwright for nothing. You can defend them till you turn blue in the face and pass out. It won’t change their poor decision making.
Gave away Wainright for nothing…so JD Drew’s best season of his career didn’t happen? Ray King’s best season of his career didn’t happen? Eli Marrero wasn’t a serviceable player? I was giving you the benefit of the doubt with ignorant, now I’m willing to question your intelligence.
I wrote a novel, it's about baseball, you should buy it: https://www.createspace.com/3407939
www.dropoutproductions.com
by cbwilk on Dec 24, 2009 10:45 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Where was Drew and Marrero the next year? Yes, on different teams. They got rental
players for one of the best pitchers in the NL and all of baseball who gets yearly votes for the CY award. An 18-20 game winner. Even Scheurholz has stated that he looks back and has “questioned” that trade. I heard that it was required to have at least a third grade education in order to post here, but you have proven that to be false.
Don't know if you noticed...
But it took a full four years for that kid to become an impact player in the majors. For a team competing for WS titles (as we were at the time), that didn’t do us a whole lot of good. Trades can work for both sides, you know.
Overheard in press box, from local reporter: 'If this Moore kid was any good, they'd be up 31-0 right now.'
--Darin Gantt, on CAR@NE
by MichaelProcton on Dec 28, 2009 10:30 AM EST up reply actions
He was the best pitching prospect in the organization at the time of the trade.
In his first full season (’06) he excelled in the bullpen. The next year he went 14-12 as a starter with an excellent 3.70 ERA (third season and second full season).
I suppose you can define “impact” any which way that suits your arguement and, certainly, trades may or may not work out. Scheurholz had pulled some good trades but that was an awful one.
Excelling as a low-leverage reliever doesn't really impress me.
Until the playoffs, he was pitching in the 6th and 7th. Yes, the players we got were rentals, but they were worth 10.8 WAR to us in one year alone. That’s a hell of a haul.
Overheard in press box, from local reporter: 'If this Moore kid was any good, they'd be up 31-0 right now.'
--Darin Gantt, on CAR@NE
by MichaelProcton on Dec 28, 2009 11:20 AM EST up reply actions
first wren was nowhere near our front office when Wainwright was traded, and nothing really? Drew put up either 8 WAR or 10 WAR that season, one of the best all around seasons by any RF in recent memory
by McCann's the Man on Dec 25, 2009 12:11 PM EST up reply actions
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