Braves Re-Acquire Jeff Francoeur... in the form of Melky Cabrera
by gondeee on Dec 22, 2009 11:32 AM EST
in Trade News
370 comments
This is going to be a trade that's talked about for some time, along with the moves the Braves have made over the past year. If there is one constant in the moves the Braves have made in the past year, it is all about trimming money from the payroll.
In today's deal the Braves sent Javier Vazquez and his one-year $11.5 million salary to the Yankees along with Boone Logan and his $1.5 million likely arbitration figure. In return they get a rookie left-handed pitcher in Mike Dunn, an A-ball prospect in Arodys Vizcaino (two no-cost players), and outfielder Melky Cabrera, who will likely make around $3 million in arbitration. Ryan Church was scheduled to make around $4 million in arbitration, but by most accounts he's a better player than Cabrera. He's certainly not as highly thought of, but when healthy he hits for much more power than Cabrera likely ever will.
This begs the question, "did we trade away Jeff Francoeur (.743 career OPS) last year to acquire the better Ryan Church (.787 career OPS), only to release Church, and trade for Melky Cabrera (.716 career OPS), who is likely not as good as Francoeur?" Seems to me that the Braves end up on the short end of that outcome. Of course Cabrera is probably still "projectable" as a major leaguer, but how long did we say that about Francoeur?
There are two ways in which this trade will look good. First is in the money we will save and have available to potentially get a free agent bat that we've been needing. A rough total of the Braves salaries for next season currently comes to around $80 million (we only have one arbitration eligible player left, that's Peter Moylan). That would leave us with around $15 million to spend on a big bat... a nice sum, which should get us a good bat. The second way this trade will look good is if Arodys Vizcaino pulls his own version of Neftali Feliz in two or three years. We could also use him to acquire that big bat via trade, that would be an alternate way in which the trade would look good.
As it stands now, the Braves pattern the past year has been to strip salary. Kelly Johnson and Ryan Church were non-tendered, instead of being paid around $4 million a piece. Boone Logan was swapped for the cheaper Mike Dunn. Tim Hudson was re-signed at a more affordable salary than the now-traded Javier Vazquez. Billy Wagner and Takashi Saito will make less than Rafael Soriano and Mike Gonzalez.
All of this salary conservation has led up to this final purge from the books, and now the team must make a move that brings a big bat here, and they should have the salary room to do so. Perhaps with $15 million to spend, they can aim higher than Johnny Damon or Xavier Nady, and zero in on Jason Bay or Matt Holliday. For some fans, that's the only way the team will win them back after another tumultuous off-season of questionable moves.
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Is there another shoe about to drop here? Because this makes no sense to me.
Here are Pujols's stats: 1.000/1.000/4.000/5.000. That's right. He is batting a thousand, with a thousand OBP (naturally), and every hit has been a home run, and thus his OPS is a perfect 5.000.
by TradeAndruw on Dec 22, 2009 11:35 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
I’m PISSED. And my Yankee-loving husband (everyone has their weaknesses) loves it.
If this had been Swisher, I would have been fine with it. WTF, Wren.
by coldriver10 on Dec 22, 2009 11:38 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
wow why?
vazquez had a career year, very unlikely he’ll repeat, he had never pitched like that in his career, we get their #3 prospect, a reliever who had a great AFL, and a great bench bat, plus some salary relief, good trade, wren
by BravesRaleigh on Dec 22, 2009 12:45 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
There is nothing about Cabrera that is great.
by Lennox on Dec 22, 2009 12:58 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
he's a cheap switch hitting 4th outfielder
the prospects we got were better, what’s the problem?
by BravesRaleigh on Dec 22, 2009 1:21 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Church may have better career numbers...
but those numbers have been on a steady decline for years. Cabrera now is as good a hitter as Church now, but he’s cheaper, healthier, and a switch hitter. Upgrade imo there. Plus the upgrade that Dunn seems to be over Logan, and another great young arm to add to the collection helping either as a future trade piece or possibly on future rosters.
by Mr. Sanchez on Dec 22, 2009 1:45 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
ummm
hes a good hitter coming off the bench, dont know how thats confusing
by BravesRaleigh on Dec 22, 2009 3:23 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
How is he a good hitter coming off the bench.
He’s not a good hitter, moving him to the bench doesn’t magically make him a better hitter.
by Lennox on Dec 22, 2009 5:31 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
But considering his bat against typical bench bats rather than starters certainly makes it much better in comparison.
Overheard in press box, from local reporter: 'If this Moore kid was any good, they'd be up 31-0 right now.'
--Darin Gantt, on CAR@NE
by MichaelProcton on Dec 22, 2009 9:19 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
FUCK THIS TRADEEEE!!!!
IM SOO FUCKING PISSED. SHIT TRADE! WE DIDNT EVEN GET SWISHER OUT OF THEM?!?!?!
FUCKKKKKK
EWWWW. D-LOWE IS STILL ON OUR TEAM?!?!
WE SHOULD HAVE ATLEAST GIVEN THEM HIM ALSO!!!
ughhhh. im soo pissed!!!!
Sorry, had to get that out of my system.
MATT DIAZ IS THE F**K*NG MAN.
They made me change my signature...
by nick9314 on Dec 22, 2009 11:40 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Oh, and as for acquiring Bay or Holliday
…I don’t see how that would happen now that we have 4 outfielders who could potentially start on day 1. Unless we flip Melky, if we sign anyone else it’ll probably be to play 1B.
by coldriver10 on Dec 22, 2009 11:44 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
I was researching this move by googling “Melky Cabrera + girlfriend” and found out that he made a sex tape with Mary Carey.
Here are Pujols's stats: 1.000/1.000/4.000/5.000. That's right. He is batting a thousand, with a thousand OBP (naturally), and every hit has been a home run, and thus his OPS is a perfect 5.000.
by TradeAndruw on Dec 22, 2009 11:45 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
I certainly hope that's true.
I’d watch. Advance scouting is improtant as a fan.
Overheard in press box, from local reporter: 'If this Moore kid was any good, they'd be up 31-0 right now.'
--Darin Gantt, on CAR@NE
by MichaelProcton on Dec 22, 2009 12:51 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
You've got to learn the guy's... tendencies
Rah Rah Ah Ah Ah Roma Romama GaGa Ooh Lala
by VivaLosBravos on Dec 22, 2009 2:35 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
WTF!
As much as it hurts seeing JV go for a 4th outfielder, the Braves need to make a splash. With the freeup money that we have now I feel we can sign Bay. The Mets have an offer of $65 mil for 4 years.($16.25mil a year) The Braves can get in there and offer another year. Instead of signing or trading for a first basemen, bring FREEMAN up.
by AlRoBraves95 on Dec 22, 2009 1:16 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I"m sick....
I wrote the other day the thought of losing Vazquez makes me sick. The thought of losing Vazquez for a 4th outfielder makes me vomit. My goodness Wren dropped the ball.
by WNWDOTCOM on Dec 22, 2009 11:45 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
FUCKING THIS!
He flipped Vazquez literally overnight. He could’ve leveraged in the Angels, who were asking for him last week, hell even someone like the Cubs, who are said to want pitching, might have jumped in for a guy of Vazquez’s caliber. If Wren does his goddman job there’s no fucking way we have to settle for a fourth outfielder in return. I don’t care how many around here are drinking the Wren Kool-Aid, he is not inspiring an iota of confidence with this offseason. Shit move, Wren, shit move.
by J-Freak on Dec 22, 2009 3:09 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
You don’t know anything other than what you read. You read some article by some guy who doesn’t know anything other than what he guesses or what somebody tells him, which may or may not be true. Frank Wren has the job, which means he has the info, not speculation. You guessing about what he could have done or should have done means nothing because you don’t actually know anything. None of us do. We don’t have the job, we don’t make the calls, we don’t have the conversations. To sit around and second guess a guy when you don’t know all the facts is unfair and unintelligent.
I wrote a novel, it's about baseball, you should buy it: https://www.createspace.com/3407939
www.dropoutproductions.com
by cbwilk on Dec 22, 2009 3:19 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
If, for sake of argument, this was the only deal on the table- you keep Vazquez. His ability and either potential extension or 1-2 draft picks after next year are worth far more than Melky, prospects or no. We’re not going to go after Bay or Holliday, so the market for our OF and 1B options is still exactly what it was before the trade. Therefore, the deal does not improve the team, even by adding payroll space. And therfore, with negative value on the trade return, we just got worse as a team.
Bottom line: we got fleeced. Better to just keep all 6 SPs and maybe move one at teh deadline if demand increases than give one away on a platter when it doesn’t do us any good to do so. No amount of spin will make this a good deal, even if there were no other options out there.
by J-Freak on Dec 22, 2009 3:42 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
If you want to make that argument, that’s fine, it’s an arguable position. But your first try was based on nothing. That said, I disagree, but that’s fine too.
I wrote a novel, it's about baseball, you should buy it: https://www.createspace.com/3407939
www.dropoutproductions.com
by cbwilk on Dec 22, 2009 4:19 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I kinda had to get that first one out before I punched something I’d regret later, but I honestly and logically believe we just got fleeced, and part of my anger stemmed from the prevalent attitude that Wren can do no wrong. THis whole offseason has been a mess. I understand that it was difficult to move Lowe, and I’m not angry with him for not being able to do so, but to move Vazquez for this is insulting both to Vazquez and to the fans. As a fan, I hope Melky suddenly rises up and sets the world on fire next year, but as a realist I fear he’ll be another FUGA-esque undeserving starter who will hamper both the offense and defense.
by J-Freak on Dec 22, 2009 4:41 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I don’t necessarily think Melky is going to be amazing, but he will be an incredibly improvement over FUGA in the outfield, especially considering his versatility (and I don’t care what UZR says, he’s a damn good OF), and he’ll certainly be an improvement at the plate. All for roughly the same price with the possibility that he ends up getting better.
I get the anger with the trade, cause my first reaction was definitely “what the fuck???”, and while I support Wren I’m not going to say he’s infallible. I’m just willing to say that if this was the move he made, then it was probably the best move, at least the best one he could make with whatever restrictions he was working under. You can’t really judge the things a GM does immediately and from what I’ve seen in the past I like Wren a lot. Maybe a year from now I’ll be on the “Wren’s a moron” bandwagon, but, for now, I like him and I’m willing to be patient. Especially in December.
I wrote a novel, it's about baseball, you should buy it: https://www.createspace.com/3407939
www.dropoutproductions.com
by cbwilk on Dec 22, 2009 5:08 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
What's the difference between an extension and simply signing him next year as an FA?
He’s going to really depress his value with the shit year he’s going to have in that bandbox.
Overheard in press box, from local reporter: 'If this Moore kid was any good, they'd be up 31-0 right now.'
--Darin Gantt, on CAR@NE
by MichaelProcton on Dec 22, 2009 9:21 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Yes, he could have leveraged the Angels...
Except for the fact that there was no way in hell Vazquez was going there.
Overheard in press box, from local reporter: 'If this Moore kid was any good, they'd be up 31-0 right now.'
--Darin Gantt, on CAR@NE
by MichaelProcton on Dec 22, 2009 9:20 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
This move has “part 1” all over it….
Somebody around here is more anal than the mom on 7th heaven. Freakin' A. lol
(self-appointed President of Yunel's Cartel~~~)
by Chief Noc-A-Homa on Dec 22, 2009 11:48 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
i agree...
but if “part 2” doesn’t have the names bay or holliday attached to it then this double feature is a stinker.
by GORILLATUX on Dec 22, 2009 11:50 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I’m more worried about 1st base, than the outfield.
Somebody around here is more anal than the mom on 7th heaven. Freakin' A. lol
(self-appointed President of Yunel's Cartel~~~)
by Chief Noc-A-Homa on Dec 22, 2009 11:55 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
really?
i’m more worried about the GM.
by GORILLATUX on Dec 22, 2009 11:57 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
(melancholy smile)
Somebody around here is more anal than the mom on 7th heaven. Freakin' A. lol
(self-appointed President of Yunel's Cartel~~~)
by Chief Noc-A-Homa on Dec 22, 2009 12:04 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Shwurdissimmo
MATT DIAZ IS THE F**K*NG MAN.
They made me change my signature...
by nick9314 on Dec 22, 2009 1:25 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
not really...
that’s another unmovable deal for a player where we already have enough options to fill the position. Delgado, Glaus, or maybe LaRoche, along with another bat to offset the risk in Garko, Hinske, Blalock, Nady, etc.
by Mr. Sanchez on Dec 22, 2009 1:47 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
The worst part of all this is that it’s Bobby Cox’s final year.
C’mon the guy is a HOF manager who has given 30 years of his life to the Braves. Don’t you it owe it to the guy to give him one more big shot? The same goes for Chipper, who is fast approaching his farewell lap as well.
This is nothing more than corporate belt-tightening – and praying that we can hang around 500 with the Marlins and Nats – just enough to where the seams don’t completely fall apart resulting in a revenue hemorrage.
Like I said, it’s a disgrace. Bobby and Chipper deserved better.
by DCP916 on Dec 22, 2009 11:50 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Not really
Bobby Cox isn’t a very good manager at this point.
This team has more to look forward to than just next season.
by get swoll yunel on Dec 22, 2009 12:05 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
so
Who gives a shit if its Booby’s last year. Wren is building a team for now and the future.
by JFP on Dec 22, 2009 12:09 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Hopefully, somehow we can get Freddy G to come back over and manage. Screw the Fish.
With the whole, “New Stadium” thing, go ahead and tack on “New Look,” “New Manger,” or some other bullshit.
Somebody around here is more anal than the mom on 7th heaven. Freakin' A. lol
(self-appointed President of Yunel's Cartel~~~)
by Chief Noc-A-Homa on Dec 22, 2009 12:10 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I give a shit.
But that doesn’t change the second part of your statement.
Overheard in press box, from local reporter: 'If this Moore kid was any good, they'd be up 31-0 right now.'
--Darin Gantt, on CAR@NE
by MichaelProcton on Dec 22, 2009 12:55 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
They have a $95 million payroll, the Marlins are as successful and have been more successful with at times less to spend. Sounds like poor personnel moves or poor player development to me.
by JD-ATL on Dec 22, 2009 12:19 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
The Marlins have a lot of talent and they have proven to be able to replenish it when players get too expensive. But don’t discount the amount of success that Girardi and Freddy have been able to have with them. If you can get an always young team to perform like that then you can have success elsewhere.
by JFP on Dec 22, 2009 12:26 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Umm...
They’ve also been far less successful more often. At least Braves fans know their team’s never going to be awful.
Overheard in press box, from local reporter: 'If this Moore kid was any good, they'd be up 31-0 right now.'
--Darin Gantt, on CAR@NE
by MichaelProcton on Dec 22, 2009 12:56 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
that is also
a product of being terrible for so long and getting high draft picks which turn into players like Miguel Cabrera and Josh Beckett and huge prospect returns that gets you players like Hanley etc.
by drumzalicious on Dec 22, 2009 1:02 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
We gave it a fine shot last year...
And it turns out, great pitching can’t overcome nonexistent offense. This was the only way we could free up the money to improve on the offensive end.
Overheard in press box, from local reporter: 'If this Moore kid was any good, they'd be up 31-0 right now.'
--Darin Gantt, on CAR@NE
by MichaelProcton on Dec 22, 2009 12:55 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I hate this trade on the surface as much as everyone else but there is no reason to make it worse than it already is with irresponsible headlines like this. Jeff Francoeur? Really? His OPS over the past two years with us was about .640. Did we seriously already forget that?
by ajones2522 on Dec 22, 2009 11:50 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Agreed.
Not a very good analysis. Church, while he has power, has not shown it recently and cannot escape the injury bug, while being more expensive. Cabrera actually improved a lot last year, and his bat may still have some maturation left in it. Should we even bring up Francoeur? We all know he had a couple decent years and then was worthless, so using career stats is using a skewed set of facts.
Not saying I like this trade overall, but I don’t think it’s as much of a steal for the Yankees as people are making it out to be.
by blindsided789 on Dec 22, 2009 12:00 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Using Francy’s career OPS is an AWFUL way to compare him to other players as he isn’t near the player he once was. Cabrera walks more, has much better range an still a good arm, faster on the basepaths, but has less power.
by bbxxj on Dec 22, 2009 12:03 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
And he isn't trending to fall off a cliff.
Overheard in press box, from local reporter: 'If this Moore kid was any good, they'd be up 31-0 right now.'
--Darin Gantt, on CAR@NE
by MichaelProcton on Dec 22, 2009 12:57 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
He is only 25 years old, is an outstanding defense CF and is improving offensively.
by fandave on Dec 22, 2009 1:12 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Career CF UZR: -13.5, UZR/150: -5.9. Care to play again?
by J-Freak on Dec 22, 2009 3:50 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I am to assume you actually believe in UZR?
by fandave on Dec 22, 2009 6:11 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
It is a good stat for seeing how good a CF is
or in this case how many runs he will have to make up for with his bat … oh wait …. he has a OPS much lower than Francoeur last year …. umm maybe the glove is his strong point
by a hay on Dec 22, 2009 10:06 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
pardon me if I prefer to rely on professional scouts’ evaluations, rather than sparkles, bubbles and whatevers.
by fandave on Dec 22, 2009 11:11 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Thanks for the logic.
Overheard in press box, from local reporter: 'If this Moore kid was any good, they'd be up 31-0 right now.'
--Darin Gantt, on CAR@NE
by MichaelProcton on Dec 22, 2009 12:57 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Arodys Vizcaino
Is there 3rd rated prospect, and he’s only 19. If he turns out to be good in a few years, maybe we’ll all look back at this trade and laugh.
I’m laughing right now but only because it’s a defense mechanism.
by coldriver10 on Dec 22, 2009 11:53 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
wow. *their. I hate typos like that.
by coldriver10 on Dec 22, 2009 11:53 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
it's okay...
it’s a stressful situation…
"It breaks your heart. It is designed to break your heart. The game begins in the spring, when everything else begins again, and it blossoms in the summer, filling the afternoons and evenings, and then as soon as the chill rains come, it stops and leaves you to face the fall alone." A. Bartlett Giamatti
by sddbaker on Dec 22, 2009 11:56 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Vizcaino got four stars from Baseball prospectus in the last few weeks. This is the same star rating that Freeman got at the same age. The guy is a real serious legit spec.
by bbxxj on Dec 22, 2009 12:04 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
He's wonderful
but pitchers who dominate A ball have a huge attrition rate.
Rah Rah Ah Ah Ah Roma Romama GaGa Ooh Lala
by VivaLosBravos on Dec 22, 2009 2:39 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
turning around...
With Schafer & Heyward waiting in the wings, me thinks Melky could be flipped to another team, most likely for a first baseman. Who does it match up with though?
by beeswax on Dec 22, 2009 12:00 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Wow, Gondeee,
that was quick. Nice write-up.
Tigers love pepper; they hate cinnamon.
by Jareth Cutestory on Dec 22, 2009 12:01 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
It’s not like I’m getting any “work” done today…
by gondeee on Dec 22, 2009 12:04 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Disagree on the overall theme though...
some think this haul is better than the Phillies got for Lee, plus the salary relief to add a risk/reward bat if not two of them to limit the risk and increase the reward.
by Mr. Sanchez on Dec 22, 2009 1:48 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I still want to hit something
Shit.
I used to like Frank Wren...not anymore. I want John Schierholz back!
by mvhsbball on Dec 22, 2009 12:02 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
go get Matt Holiday
let Heyward start in RF opening day and tear shit up.
Lets go. Im sick of this.
I used to like Frank Wren...not anymore. I want John Schierholz back!
by mvhsbball on Dec 22, 2009 12:06 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I’m all for the second part of that. Forget Matt Holiday. We HAVE to figure out 1st base.
Somebody around here is more anal than the mom on 7th heaven. Freakin' A. lol
(self-appointed President of Yunel's Cartel~~~)
by Chief Noc-A-Homa on Dec 22, 2009 12:07 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Then who plays first...
…and what do we do with our million other outfielders?
by cavebird on Dec 22, 2009 12:07 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Bring up Freeman, enought talk! Lets see what this guy can do. But only if we get Holiday or Bay
by AlRoBraves95 on Dec 22, 2009 1:20 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Bring up a 20-yr old...
…who has not had success yet above single A? Epic fail.
by cavebird on Dec 22, 2009 1:29 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
You’d have Holliday, Lowe, and Chipper alone eating up around 50+% of our payroll for the next several years.
I don’t think that would work too well.
by get swoll yunel on Dec 22, 2009 12:14 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Wren had better make something else of this trade ..
otherwise he’s telling the fan base to settle for mediocrity.
And now we’re stuck with a pitcher that’s upset that his name was involved in trade rumors to begin with? Great.
by yaggiefresh on Dec 22, 2009 12:03 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
He is?
What part of trying to make every spot on your 25-man roster as productive and cost-effective as possible says that?
Overheard in press box, from local reporter: 'If this Moore kid was any good, they'd be up 31-0 right now.'
--Darin Gantt, on CAR@NE
by MichaelProcton on Dec 22, 2009 12:59 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
From the standpoint of everyone else in the organization plus all us fans, nothing. But DLowe threw himself a little bitch fit over it, so Lord only knows what kind of clubhouse presence he’s going to be going forward.
by J-Freak on Dec 22, 2009 3:53 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
We've got a lot of veterans in that clubhouse...
and a manager who’s great with vets. Plus a guy getting $15m to play for a playoff contender, he’ll be fine in the clubhouse.
by Mr. Sanchez on Dec 22, 2009 4:33 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I’d hope so, but given that this little offseason tirade was rather childish, I wouldn’t put it past him to be a 5 year old when the team reconvenes either.
by J-Freak on Dec 22, 2009 4:44 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
How would one "be a five-year-old?"
Will he pout in a corner? Will he refuse to pitch? Will he tank it on purpose?
Overheard in press box, from local reporter: 'If this Moore kid was any good, they'd be up 31-0 right now.'
--Darin Gantt, on CAR@NE
by MichaelProcton on Dec 22, 2009 9:23 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Half-ass it. Piss and moan and give generally uninspired pitching performances. Never put it past a grown man to act like a child. See: Bradley, Milton; Perez, Odalis; and Ramirez, Manny.
by J-Freak on Dec 23, 2009 1:03 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Who have been selfish for years.
Lowe’s never exhibited that kind of behavior.
Overheard in press box, from local reporter: 'If this Moore kid was any good, they'd be up 31-0 right now.'
--Darin Gantt, on CAR@NE
by MichaelProcton on Dec 23, 2009 1:21 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Until he whined about his name coming up in trade rumors.
“He throws an angry tantrum if he cannot have his way / He calls for Mom and sucks his thumb and doesn’t want to play”
Woah, going WAY back with that one…
by J-Freak on Dec 23, 2009 1:30 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Wait, so a single interview defines a player's attitude and willingness to work.
Oh, got it.
Overheard in press box, from local reporter: 'If this Moore kid was any good, they'd be up 31-0 right now.'
--Darin Gantt, on CAR@NE
by MichaelProcton on Dec 23, 2009 1:57 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Sort of- if that’s his outlook then it could very well define his performance GOING FORWARD, though obviously it doesn’t have a retroactive effect on what he’s done before. Its doesn’t define his career, but it could shape the future.
Let’s go all the way back with this:
We’ve got a lot of veterans in that clubhouse…
and a manager who’s great with vets. Plus a guy getting $15m to play for a playoff contender, he’ll be fine in the clubhouse.
by Mr. Sanchez on Dec 22, 2009 1:33 PM PST
I’d hope so, but given that this little offseason tirade was rather childish, I wouldn’t put it past him to be a 5 year old when the team reconvenes either.
by J-Freak on Dec 22, 2009 1:44 PM PST
Let me make this as blunt as I can- He threw a fit, so he COULD POTENTIALLY carry a chip on his shoulder. Obviously it’s no guarantee and I HOPE he can man up and not let this bug him, but who knows?
I’m through playing this little game where you take something I say out of context, draw some illogical conclusion from it and act all smug for thinking you’ve somehow “won.” I don’t know if you’ve realized this, but I’m not forcing you to believe as I do. But this nonsense has got to stop, if you want to discuss what I’ve said I’m more than willing to engage you, but please respond with a salient point, not these childish mind games. I’m getting tired of having to restate myself so you can pick up on what you ignored the first time through so you could try to make me look like an idiot for something I never said. kthxbye
by J-Freak on Dec 23, 2009 2:24 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
blockquote fail, but you get the idea…
by J-Freak on Dec 23, 2009 2:25 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Seriously
Is it realistic to think that Atlanta could get Holliday and someone like Nady to play first?
by SmithnCompany on Dec 22, 2009 12:05 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Then where would Melky play? And Diaz? Assuming Heyward makes the squad.
by coldriver10 on Dec 22, 2009 12:06 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Melky could go to the Mets
Since he’s a latino and all…
I used to like Frank Wren...not anymore. I want John Schierholz back!
by mvhsbball on Dec 22, 2009 12:06 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
lmao. I’m sure hearing his name in a trade got Omar out of bed, around 10ish..
Somebody around here is more anal than the mom on 7th heaven. Freakin' A. lol
(self-appointed President of Yunel's Cartel~~~)
by Chief Noc-A-Homa on Dec 22, 2009 12:08 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Hmmmm....
Cabrera and a prospect or two for Derek Lee? Let the rosterbation begin, just do it here.
by Mr. Sanchez on Dec 22, 2009 1:51 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
LOL....
Francouer redux. Once Schafer/Heyward are ready, and Carlos Beltran goes down, we can send Melky Cabrera to Omar Minaya for 2 or 3 of their top 10 prospects.
by Mr. Sanchez on Dec 22, 2009 1:50 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
IF we got Nady and Holliday somehow
Then I think Melky would slide to the bench as the team’s 4th outfielder, which he really is. Diaz would remain in right and Heyward would still be in the minors.
by SmithnCompany on Dec 22, 2009 12:08 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
In my opinion
As much as I loved Diaz last year, Melky’s the better player.
by coldriver10 on Dec 22, 2009 12:09 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
and how the hell is Melky better than MattyD?
I used to like Frank Wren...not anymore. I want John Schierholz back!
by mvhsbball on Dec 22, 2009 12:11 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I'm trying to figure that out too
but I can’t think of nothing.
by SmithnCompany on Dec 22, 2009 12:18 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Eh, I just think before last year Diaz was mainly a platoon guy, so his numbers are inflated. But if he can replicate what he did last year, then I will definitely agree that Diaz is better.
by coldriver10 on Dec 22, 2009 12:23 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Diaz has pretty much replicated last season, though. It’s called 2006 and 2007. His 2008 looks to be the (injury-caused) fluke.
He’s clearly a superior offensive player to Cabrera, so unless you think the world of Melky as a defensive corner outfielder with a cannon arm and huge potential to improve, I don’t see the argument that he’s superior to Diaz at all.
by get swoll yunel on Dec 22, 2009 12:28 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Fair enough
But like I said, the majority of his PA were against LH pitchers, so his numbers are inflated compared to Melky’s. Diaz had around 300 PA in 2006 and 2007, whereas Melky had 500+.
But Diaz has definitely been nasty.
by coldriver10 on Dec 22, 2009 12:35 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I know! I know!
Cabrera has more even splits. He can hit both righties and lefties fairly well. Cabrera also plays better defense and runs slightly better than Diaz.
by GouldisGold on Dec 22, 2009 5:44 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
when Jason Heyward comes up
Melky will have to pay Jason to walk next to him.
I used to like Frank Wren...not anymore. I want John Schierholz back!
by mvhsbball on Dec 22, 2009 12:09 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Hell no to Holliday or Bay
Listen to ourselves here… This is Lowe all over again. Overpay for the best FA availiable and then we are going to be in the same boat as we are this year but with two huge crappy contracts. They are not worth the money!
by Freemans on Dec 22, 2009 12:30 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Matt Holiday is
He’s one of the best 5 or 10 players in baseball.
I used to like Frank Wren...not anymore. I want John Schierholz back!
by mvhsbball on Dec 22, 2009 12:31 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I hope you are kidding
Tell that to oakland. Matt Holliday is a good player but not even a great one, never mind top 10! You want to pay 16 mil a yr for a… top 25 OF for the next 6 yrs (conservative guess). I sure hope not. Please FW dont do this to us. He has a career 933 ops which is real good but that was playing in Colorodo. His career OPS while away… 808! 8 “o” friggin 8!!!!
by Freemans on Dec 22, 2009 12:48 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
i dunno about that
He is good but there are more than 10 players better than him. Also i dont think we will see his true production till next year. We saw what happened when he got out of Coors.
by drumzalicious on Dec 22, 2009 12:50 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
He was nasty in STL
The A’s stadium is a cavern. I think he’d do well here.
by coldriver10 on Dec 22, 2009 12:53 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
he was also
realizing that unless he did something he would not be getting that pay day he wanted.
by drumzalicious on Dec 22, 2009 12:54 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Do you really think he was trying harder in Stl than in Oakland? Really?
by coldriver10 on Dec 22, 2009 1:02 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I wouldnt say trying harder but he was prob stepping his game up a bit. This is a guy who had just turned down a huge contract from Colorado. If he flopped he would have been looking at a 10mil a year deal.
by drumzalicious on Dec 22, 2009 1:05 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
If you want more, we can probably continue...
Pujols, Lincecum, King Felix, ARod, CC Sabathia, Ryan Braun, Roy Halladay, Ryan Howard, Hanley Ramirez, Evan Longoria.
Which one of those are we removing for Holliday?
by Mr. Sanchez on Dec 22, 2009 1:53 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Get Holliday, stick him in LF, Platoon Milkey and Diaz in RF, and bring up freeman and stick his butt at 1st
by AlRoBraves95 on Dec 22, 2009 1:22 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Calling up a 20-yr old with no success...
…above single A is still an epic fail, no matter how many times you post it.
by cavebird on Dec 22, 2009 1:31 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
We sign Holliday. Move Diaz to 1B. OF is Cabrera, Nate, and Holliday. Heyward comes up in June and replaces Melky. WS champs.
by Bobby Cocks on Dec 22, 2009 12:05 PM EST via mobile reply actions 0 recs
ha. I could go for that, mostly the last part though
by McGriff the Crime Dog on Dec 22, 2009 12:06 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Did you just hint at Holliday possibly playing RF?
I seriously hope not.
by SmithnCompany on Dec 22, 2009 12:07 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
can we just please now trade for AGonz! and sign nady then I would be happy
by Dlass008 on Dec 22, 2009 12:07 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Freddie Freeman...
and the excess of talented young arms in the low minors.
by Mr. Sanchez on Dec 22, 2009 1:54 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Vazquez is a free agent after 2010 season, any chance we re-sign him?
by beeswax on Dec 22, 2009 12:09 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
what really sucks is he sounded open to a team friendly contract extension. dammit.
by beeswax on Dec 22, 2009 12:13 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Hopefully they send him a fruit basket, or call, or something. The powers at be need to seriously stop fucking around.
We’re owned by a bunch of closet Phillies fans, who could be potentially, slowly, fucking us over.
Somebody around here is more anal than the mom on 7th heaven. Freakin' A. lol
(self-appointed President of Yunel's Cartel~~~)
by Chief Noc-A-Homa on Dec 22, 2009 12:13 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
doubt it
going into 2011 we will have Minor knocking on the door and God knows who else
by drumzalicious on Dec 22, 2009 12:33 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
The shitty season he's about to have will probably drive his price down.
Overheard in press box, from local reporter: 'If this Moore kid was any good, they'd be up 31-0 right now.'
--Darin Gantt, on CAR@NE
by MichaelProcton on Dec 22, 2009 1:01 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
And Lowe has a huge season...
making him easier to unload and we bring back Javy at a discount. Frank Wren is a genius!
by Mr. Sanchez on Dec 22, 2009 1:55 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I would’ve much preferred Swish in this one.
I still want no part of Bay, and Holliday’s contract is going to be enormous and potentially handicapping to a team with our payroll limitations. No thanks.
Ten bucks says Javy goes back to being “old Javy” next season.
I’m not thrilled with this deal at all, but it isn’t all that surprising considering Lowe’s total lack of value. It’s just hard to figure that Vazquez couldn’t net more out there in a trade.
by get swoll yunel on Dec 22, 2009 12:12 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
I agree that Javy might do much worse this season, especially at Yankee Stadium
by McGriff the Crime Dog on Dec 22, 2009 12:16 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Honestly, I would think Lowe would possibly perform better at new Yankee Stadium as Vazquez is prone to giving up long balls at times.
by beeswax on Dec 22, 2009 12:21 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Agreed
I dont know if i am sold on Swisher but the rest of your write up is dead on. Javy is a good player and we will miss him but he will not have another year like last one. I think he is a better player than “old Javy” but not as good as what he gave us this year. Trading him while he is hot makes sense but… for what we got out of him. Blahhh it was a salary dump. Thats garbage because if we were going to do that then why not drop Lowe on the Yankees instead.
It was a terriable trade. Eaither trade Lowe to the Yankees for a hotdog and a beer or get some real value out of Vazquez. For all you Wren supporters out there… good luck explaining.
by Freemans on Dec 22, 2009 12:25 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
And if we have to pay for Lowe, the hot dog, and the beer...
What was the point of trading him at all?
Overheard in press box, from local reporter: 'If this Moore kid was any good, they'd be up 31-0 right now.'
--Darin Gantt, on CAR@NE
by MichaelProcton on Dec 22, 2009 1:03 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
lol
i guess what i should have been going for was throwing in a hot dog and a keg to take Lowe from us lol
Well that just proves FW is not quite brilliant after all. Point in case the Soriano trade and now this one. The signing of Lowe was really bad to begin with but I still cant believe that he couldnt get anything for him? Com’ON man! And this is the best he could get for Vazquez. Ha ok then…
by Freemans on Dec 22, 2009 1:21 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
He's not brilliant because he couldn't convince a team to overpay for Lowe? I guess.
And to have netted a high-upside reliever for Soriano was a great return.
Overheard in press box, from local reporter: 'If this Moore kid was any good, they'd be up 31-0 right now.'
--Darin Gantt, on CAR@NE
by MichaelProcton on Dec 22, 2009 1:25 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
What
Overpay for Lowe like he just did a year ago and will continue to do so for the next three. yeah Brilliant all right. a high upside Rp a ha ok.
by Freemans on Dec 22, 2009 1:29 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I'm sure you'll be laughing if he's pitching weill in the 6th and 7th all year.
Overheard in press box, from local reporter: 'If this Moore kid was any good, they'd be up 31-0 right now.'
--Darin Gantt, on CAR@NE
by MichaelProcton on Dec 22, 2009 2:30 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Wren probably preferred Swisher too...
doesn’t make that an option.
by Mr. Sanchez on Dec 22, 2009 1:55 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Jason Bay
I wonder: with seemingly only the Mets bidding for Bay, and his alleged resistance to play in citi field, could the Braves sweep him and get him at a relatively good price?
by beeswax on Dec 22, 2009 12:16 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
probably not
but you never know.
I’d take bay on a 3 year deal…but no more than that.
I used to like Frank Wren...not anymore. I want John Schierholz back!
by mvhsbball on Dec 22, 2009 12:19 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
word is he wants at least 5 to go to the Mets. I’d bet he’d take less to come to Atlanta
by beeswax on Dec 22, 2009 12:20 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Jason and his agent need to lay off the weed if they think he’s gonna get 5 years.
I’d take him for 3 years/36MM.
His defense isn’t great, but the man can still swing the bat.
I used to like Frank Wren...not anymore. I want John Schierholz back!
by mvhsbball on Dec 22, 2009 12:26 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Hell, he wants six.
Overheard in press box, from local reporter: 'If this Moore kid was any good, they'd be up 31-0 right now.'
--Darin Gantt, on CAR@NE
by MichaelProcton on Dec 22, 2009 1:03 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
The Yankees rotation looks fucking mean next year.
Gross.
by get swoll yunel on Dec 22, 2009 12:23 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
so does ours!
Javy
Hudson
Hanson
Jurrj—
Oh, wait…
I used to like Frank Wren...not anymore. I want John Schierholz back!
by mvhsbball on Dec 22, 2009 12:24 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
comon
Jurrjens
Hudson
Lowe
Hanson
Kawakami
Is still damn good and deep. Walk away from the edge.
by bbxxj on Dec 22, 2009 12:25 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Question is though...
Who fills in when one of those guys inevitably goes down?
by pancanbra on Dec 22, 2009 12:25 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Medlen
plus all those other AAAA guys we have
by drumzalicious on Dec 22, 2009 12:27 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
hey
never said it was a good option lol
by drumzalicious on Dec 22, 2009 12:29 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Name a better 6th/7th starter...
hell, how many 5th starters can you name better than Medlen.
by Mr. Sanchez on Dec 22, 2009 1:56 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
why is jo jo still on this team?
by AlRoBraves95 on Dec 22, 2009 1:26 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Because he's a good AAA starter who's young and cheap?
You could do plenty worse.
Overheard in press box, from local reporter: 'If this Moore kid was any good, they'd be up 31-0 right now.'
--Darin Gantt, on CAR@NE
by MichaelProcton on Dec 22, 2009 1:26 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
i doubt it goes in that order
They would prob go
Hudson
Lowe
Jurrjens
Hanson
Kawakami
by drumzalicious on Dec 22, 2009 12:26 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Nah, it’ll be Jurrjens, Lowe, Hanson, Hudson, Kawakami
by pancanbra on Dec 22, 2009 12:29 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Bobby would never do that. I doubt FW would let him.
by drumzalicious on Dec 22, 2009 12:29 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Never let him do what? Start our most consistent pitcher on opening day?
by pancanbra on Dec 22, 2009 12:30 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
He'll be our #1...
But he won’t be the Opening Day starter. Cox is all about some vet tenacitude and scrappitation.
Overheard in press box, from local reporter: 'If this Moore kid was any good, they'd be up 31-0 right now.'
--Darin Gantt, on CAR@NE
by MichaelProcton on Dec 22, 2009 1:04 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Huddy starts opening day.
DuuuUUUuuuh.
by FineHamAbounds on Dec 22, 2009 1:27 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Jurrjens more than deserves the opening day start. And we’ll start Lowe second just because of his fat contract and to make him feel like he’s not actually our 5th starter.
by pancanbra on Dec 22, 2009 12:30 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
nah
they will start Hudson. Although Jurrjens has been great the last two seasons they are going to do all they can to protect him from to heavy of a workload and protect him from that pressure of being an ace.
Im pretty sure all next year we will read everyone on the team calling Jurrjens and Hanson the Ace’s of the team.
by drumzalicious on Dec 22, 2009 12:32 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Hudson was hurt all last season, he didn’t deserve the opening day start.
by pancanbra on Dec 22, 2009 12:33 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
although
he was hurt he is still technically the teams ace. he came back and pitched darn good in those few starts to not be at 100%. He will be the opening day starter with Lowe right behind him.
by drumzalicious on Dec 22, 2009 12:35 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
yeah it looks good but we had a 6th sp to trade for a bat and we got… wait for it… wait for it… Melkey Cabera. Yeauck!
by Freemans on Dec 22, 2009 12:27 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
We also got $10+ mil that will likely become a bat.
Overheard in press box, from local reporter: 'If this Moore kid was any good, they'd be up 31-0 right now.'
--Darin Gantt, on CAR@NE
by MichaelProcton on Dec 22, 2009 1:05 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
i'll say it again
Jurrjens is fine.
Hudson is coming off major arm surgery.
Lowe was so inconsistent and already had got all butt hurt.
Hanson is going into his first full season after pitching the most innings of his life.
Kawakami is good, but still hasnt pitched a full year.
I used to like Frank Wren...not anymore. I want John Schierholz back!
by mvhsbball on Dec 22, 2009 12:27 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
And Vazquez just had the best year of his career. Do you really think he will repeat it? Even if he stayed with us, he would kind of be a question mark. Will the real Javier Vazquez please stand up?
by GouldisGold on Dec 22, 2009 5:47 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
It’d still be good if Lowe would pitch like a 3rd starter instead of a 5th. He doesn’t even have to be our “ace.”
by pancanbra on Dec 22, 2009 12:26 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
This trade would’ve never been necessary if we would’ve never signed Lowe to that ridiculous contract. Javier more than earned the money he was making last year. IMO he was our best pitcher, and we end up trading him away for Melky freaking Cabrera??? I understand that we need to dump salary, but is that worth losing our best pitcher from last year?
Now, I will say that I had fears that Javy would not be able to perform up to last year’s standard, just based on his previous stats, so I suppose the Yankee’s run that risk. But they totally came away with a steal. Unless, this prospect kid turns out to be a 3+ starter in the future, this could be a deal that will haunt Wren.
So yes, unless we sign either Holliday or Bay after this, I too will be pissed. As for 1B, I don’t really care. I don’t see that many FA’s out there that I’m enamored with. You could always move Prado to 1B and start Infante at 2B. Or perhaps we could sign Laroche on a discount.
Now Lowe, earn your effing money.
by pancanbra on Dec 22, 2009 12:25 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
CRAP!!!
Ah well. Guess we couldnt get rid of the 37year old cry baby.
Javy will be missed i hope he doesnt have as rough of a season as i think he will pitching in that HR haven.
On the surface i dont like this trade however i believe for the Braves it was all about getting the pitching prospect. If he turns out good then we won the trade and everyone else is filler.
Also im not to sure the Braves will flip Melky. I believe they honestly see him as our starting LF/RF’er. At this point my guess is they find a 1st Baseman and call it an offseason.
by drumzalicious on Dec 22, 2009 12:26 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
And which FA first baseman is worth the 15 mil or so that we have left over?
by pancanbra on Dec 22, 2009 12:27 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Nothing says that they will spend the entire 15mil.
My guess and dream is we flip Melky to the Tigers for Miguel Cabrera.
Although we would be more likely to get Magglio
by drumzalicious on Dec 22, 2009 12:30 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Hate it...
But am willing to see if this is just the beginning of a bigger move before I burn the stadium down…
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by Mike Kerns on Dec 22, 2009 12:27 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
DOB is hearing from Braves people that they REALLY like Vizcaino. These were the same guys who plucked Jurrjens out for another rental (Renteria) so please cut the guys some slack.
by bbxxj on Dec 22, 2009 12:28 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
I don’t have a problem with Vizcaino. And I think it’s great to get a cheaper LOOGY than Logan. It’s just Melky fucking Cabrera I have a problem with. He’ll be our 5th OF by September.
I used to like Frank Wren...not anymore. I want John Schierholz back!
by mvhsbball on Dec 22, 2009 12:30 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
at least
he doesnt Strike out too much.
by drumzalicious on Dec 22, 2009 12:31 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I’d like to see Cabrera traded actually. He is a fine player but he is wasted in LF.
by bbxxj on Dec 22, 2009 12:37 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
See above...
at which point Omar Minaya will be beating down our door to give us a valuable piece for him.
by Mr. Sanchez on Dec 22, 2009 1:58 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
That's a good sign.
If Vizcaino was the reason for the trade instead of Melky, then maybe, just maybe, Heyward can play and Melky can be the fourth OF. Melky makes a very good fourth OF—-he plays all three OF positions and is a switch hitter. Melky makes a pretty poor starting OF, however, because he doesn’t hit well enough. I was afraid (and still am to an extent) that Melky was the key to the trade and we overvalued him and will use him as a starter where he is weak instead of fourth OF where he is much stronger.
by cavebird on Dec 22, 2009 12:38 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Disagree. Cabrera is 25, a switch-hitter, has a better arm and is a better defensive CFer than McLouth, who is 28 and much more expensive with a contract calling for payments of $4.5 million in 2010 and $6.5 million in 2011.
Last season, Melky had 42 XBHs in 485 ABs and a line of .274 /.336 /.416 /.752, which compares pretty well to Nate’s 49 XBHs in 507 ABs and line of .256 /.352 /.436 /.788.
I see Melky as a young player with good offensive upside and a legitimate Major League CFer. I see him as a very solid replacement for Nate in CF.
by fandave on Dec 22, 2009 2:52 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
It certainly gives us a lot of options...
depending on how well the three, relatively cheap OF play (Cabrera likely signs a Matt Diaz like deal of around $2.5m). Then you got Schafer and Heyward likely starting in AAA and eventually moving up once their play demands it (or someone goes down). That’s some nice versatility with 3 capable of playing CF, then Heyward for RF all cheap and tradeable.
by Mr. Sanchez on Dec 22, 2009 3:28 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Melky a better defender than Nate? I’m not buying that.
by Salty on Dec 26, 2009 3:53 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Vizcaino is the only reason most sane people haven’t blasted wren yet. He’s collecting a monopoly on young stud pitching for us that could pay off big time in 2-4 years (teheran, vizcaino, the delgados, lopez, spruill, and minor)
by McCann's the Man on Dec 22, 2009 2:21 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Or sooner.
I hear young pitching is pretty highly valued.
Overheard in press box, from local reporter: 'If this Moore kid was any good, they'd be up 31-0 right now.'
--Darin Gantt, on CAR@NE
by MichaelProcton on Dec 22, 2009 2:31 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I’d like to let them develop a little bit before we start talking trade because with most of them in A ball or low A their value is lower than it should be because teams worry about the likelihood they make a major league impact. If you can hold off until next season when most are at worst in high A their value goes way up. Plus you get a good idea of who you’re unwilling to give up (at this point hope it’s teheran and vizcaino with r delgado right there too)
by McCann's the Man on Dec 25, 2009 4:45 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
But doesn't this trade that just happened kind of put that logic on the back burner?
The Yankees were just able to trade for one of last year’s best major-league starters for a package that was highlighted by the kind of low-level prospect you say people didn’t want.
Overheard in press box, from local reporter: 'If this Moore kid was any good, they'd be up 31-0 right now.'
--Darin Gantt, on CAR@NE
by MichaelProcton on Dec 26, 2009 7:23 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I don't mid this trade.
Do we really think Javy would have the same year he had this past year?
Also, Cabrera is a decent player, and I really like what I hear about Vizcaino.
by GouldisGold on Dec 22, 2009 12:33 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Hell
We couldn’t have got Bret Gardner instead? At least he can steal a base and plays excellent defense.
by Lennox on Dec 22, 2009 12:38 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Anyone else thinking that we’ve cleared just enough room to bring Adam Laroche back?
by MTSU11 on Dec 22, 2009 12:38 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Tell him to start sleeping on the other side, or something. Maybe he’ll have a kickass first half.
Somebody around here is more anal than the mom on 7th heaven. Freakin' A. lol
(self-appointed President of Yunel's Cartel~~~)
by Chief Noc-A-Homa on Dec 22, 2009 12:39 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
doubt we bring him in
Would block Freeman in 2011
by drumzalicious on Dec 22, 2009 12:43 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Sure...
If he doesn’t demand three guaranteed/any kind of trade kicker.
Overheard in press box, from local reporter: 'If this Moore kid was any good, they'd be up 31-0 right now.'
--Darin Gantt, on CAR@NE
by MichaelProcton on Dec 22, 2009 1:08 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
too many years...
it looks more like Delgado or Glaus to me.
by Mr. Sanchez on Dec 22, 2009 1:59 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Damn...
Could not agree more Gondeee. Hopefully we can trade him elsewhere for someone better… At least that’s my hope. I don’t think I can stomach watching this guy play for the Braves…
How much more freakin’ “depth” does this team need? At some point you need BIG TIME TALENT to win the big one… Not a bunch of bench players put into starting roles!
-----
Braves Fan Since 1982. Go Braves!
"All opinions welcome..."
by proeye on Dec 22, 2009 12:39 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
I'd be okay
with Mark Derosa and Laroche but I still don’t like the trade,especially considering that we got a 4th outfielder in the deal. There better be another part to this, really.
by Magoo12218 on Dec 22, 2009 12:39 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
I like the idea of Derosa as well, if he comes down on his asking price. He is as versatile as they come.
by FreeBarryBonds on Dec 22, 2009 12:43 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I'll bet any of you $5 bucks
that Jason Bay is a member of the Atlanta Braves by the end of the week.
Anyone wanna bet me?
I used to like Frank Wren...not anymore. I want John Schierholz back!
by mvhsbball on Dec 22, 2009 12:41 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
You’re gonna lose some money.
But I’ll gladly take you up on the offer.
by get swoll yunel on Dec 22, 2009 12:45 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
the way I see it
Bay has been “on the Braves’ radar” ever since 2008 when we nearly got him.
Why else would be clear $12MM?
I used to like Frank Wren...not anymore. I want John Schierholz back!
by mvhsbball on Dec 22, 2009 12:46 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
You think the $10 MM or so we freed up in this deal is going to be enough to land Bay?
by Lennox on Dec 22, 2009 12:47 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
well
that plus the money we already had that was extra. we have around 12-15 mil.
i honestly doubt its Bay unless they are flipping Melky for someone.
by drumzalicious on Dec 22, 2009 12:49 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Get your panties out of a bunch....
Why is everyone acting like Javy was the second coming of Walter Johnson? Sure he had a solid year in the ATL last year, but come on. I actually like the move. Arodys Vizcaino is 19 with lots of upside. We are loaded in pitching prospects with Vizcaino, Teheran, Minor, Devall, Spruill, and Kimbrel. Mike Dunn will be a great addition to the pen.
Also, I don’t think we keep Melky. We trade him with some prospects for a “big bat” first baseman. Prince Fielder anyone?
by FreeBarryBonds on Dec 22, 2009 12:41 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
I'm sure we'd like to have Prince Fielder
but there’s no way the Brewers are trading him.
I used to like Frank Wren...not anymore. I want John Schierholz back!
by mvhsbball on Dec 22, 2009 12:42 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
……..That’s what I assumed to know about Nate McLouth.
Somebody around here is more anal than the mom on 7th heaven. Freakin' A. lol
(self-appointed President of Yunel's Cartel~~~)
by Chief Noc-A-Homa on Dec 22, 2009 12:46 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
completely different situations, MIL actually in contention for one
by McCann's the Man on Dec 22, 2009 2:23 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Vazquez wasn’t just solid, he was one of the best pitchers in the game last year.
Yeah, I’m sure that the Braves had a nice package of prospects put together to offer for Prince, but the Brewers were holding out for a mediocre 4th OFer type to make the deal happen.
by Lennox on Dec 22, 2009 12:45 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I could name 15 pitchers that were better than Vazquez last year. How does this make him “one of the best” pitchers in the game?
by FreeBarryBonds on Dec 22, 2009 12:46 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Are you nuts? He was the freaking Terminator out there, dude. He was Maddux-like, all season.
Somebody around here is more anal than the mom on 7th heaven. Freakin' A. lol
(self-appointed President of Yunel's Cartel~~~)
by Chief Noc-A-Homa on Dec 22, 2009 12:48 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
of course there were pitchers that were better than him however to argue that he wasnt one of the top pitchers in the game last year is stupid. even if he is #16 on the list. there are 30 teams with at least 5 starters thats 150 starters. #16 is darn good
by drumzalicious on Dec 22, 2009 12:48 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Do it.
I’m looking forward to this.
I used to like Frank Wren...not anymore. I want John Schierholz back!
by mvhsbball on Dec 22, 2009 12:48 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
1. Tim Lincecum
2. C.C. Sabathia
3. Roy Halladay
4. Josh Beckett.
5. Jon Lester
6. Felix Hernandez
7. Cliff Lee
8. John Lackey
9. Johan Santana
10. Dan Haren
11. Justin Verlander
12. Yovani Gallardo
13. Zack Grienke
14. Adam Wainwright
15. Chris Carpenter
I could name more. Jurrjens was arguably better than Vazquez. The point I’m tryin to make is that you guys acting like he was a god. Sure he was solid, but he wasn’t Roger Cy Young.
by FreeBarryBonds on Dec 22, 2009 12:58 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
There is no point in even arguing with any of you. No matter what I say, your not going to change your mind.
by FreeBarryBonds on Dec 22, 2009 1:03 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
lmao. They’re looking for numbers, man. Analysis. It’s all aboot the stats.
Somebody around here is more anal than the mom on 7th heaven. Freakin' A. lol
(self-appointed President of Yunel's Cartel~~~)
by Chief Noc-A-Homa on Dec 22, 2009 1:05 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
i will agree with you that some of those players were better than Vaz. we never said there werent better players.
however he was still a VERY good pitcher and one of the best in the entire MLB last year and deserves the credit of being “one of the best”
by drumzalicious on Dec 22, 2009 1:07 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Speaking of Bonds and the Braves, this made me smile.
Somebody around here is more anal than the mom on 7th heaven. Freakin' A. lol
(self-appointed President of Yunel's Cartel~~~)
by Chief Noc-A-Homa on Dec 22, 2009 1:08 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Vazquez was comfortably in the top 15 in every important pitching stat last year, I’d like to know what criteria you’re using for ranking him outside of your top 15.
by Lennox on Dec 22, 2009 1:09 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
by what stats are you going by? We could go to some advanced stats to prove you wrong here
by drumzalicious on Dec 22, 2009 1:03 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Advanced stats. Are you kidding me? Let’s see…. Javier Vazquez pitched without an undershirt while 25.888% of major league starters did. His disadvantage ratio was 4.34 to one. After computing his NAACP we find that he has a CIA of 22. Then we take the average number of times he licked his fingers before rubbing the ball and divide that by his FBI of .4532 and we get a FUPA of 123.456423.
I mean seriously. You guys have stats for everything. You probably know how many times he wiped his ass.
by FreeBarryBonds on Dec 22, 2009 1:10 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, Vazquez was among the leaders in silly stats like ERA and strikeouts. Clearly you have to be a stat head to see value in that.
by Lennox on Dec 22, 2009 1:40 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
So you want some stats?
Because you stress how important ERA is, here you go:
Of Vazquez’s 15 wins, 53.3% of them were against below .500 teams.
Of Vazquez’s 10 losses, 70% of them were against above .500 teams.
Of Vazquez’s 32 starts, 14 of them were against below .500 teams
Of Vazquez’s 98 IP against below .500 teams his ERA was 2.29
Of Vasquez’s 5 starts against the Marlins his ERA was 5.46
Of Vasquez’s 10 starts against the Marlins/Phillies his ERA was 4.475
Anyone wonder why he had a career year? Maybe because he pitched against a lot of sub par offenses in the game. It is no surprise that his career numbers are way off from last year.
He obviously benefitted from playing against the likes of the Natinals, Mets, Pirates, Reds,etc. Not to mention he was the Marlins bitch all year long.
The whole point is that Javier isn’t as good as you guys think he is. He came over to the NL and posted some good stats against lesser competition. He isn’t anywhere near the top of the “best pitchers in the game” list.
by FreeBarryBonds on Dec 22, 2009 2:07 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Good start, now show those same breakdowns for every pitcher you rank ahead of him to see how they match up.
by Lennox on Dec 22, 2009 5:33 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
wow.
Now while your looking at losses. Look at his run support.
Then look at the run support of some of your top 15
by drumzalicious on Dec 23, 2009 1:10 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I was willing to give you the benefit of the doubt, but now you’re just being silly. The other posters justifiably asked for a line of reasoning behind your list that has more of a basis than your personal opinion and you blast them for being stat heads. I’m as much of an anti-stat guy as it gets, but if you’re going to make claims, and make a list to back them up, you really should be willing to explain.
And, frankly, unless the whole Bonds thing is some kind of joke, I’m disinclined to put much value in what you say anyway.
I wrote a novel, it's about baseball, you should buy it: https://www.createspace.com/3407939
www.dropoutproductions.com
by cbwilk on Dec 22, 2009 1:51 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Of the list, at least a handful work...
Lincecum
Greinke
Sabathia
Halladay
Wainwright
Carpenter
Felix Hernandez
Dan Haren
Cliff Lee
that’s a pretty good top 9.
by Mr. Sanchez on Dec 22, 2009 2:03 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
not saying those 9 are "better"...
but were about “as good” and the top 3-5 were pretty special.
by Mr. Sanchez on Dec 22, 2009 2:04 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Beckett #4 LOL.
John Lackey at #8 is also laughable.
by GouldisGold on Dec 22, 2009 5:49 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Go ahead and try to name 15
Most of them will be wrong.
Vazquez was a 6.6 WAR player, 9th in the majors in ERA, 3rd in WHIP, 4th in Ks, 12 in IP, 3rd in FIP, and 3rd in K/BB.
by Lennox on Dec 22, 2009 12:57 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
i’d love to see this list, i can only think of 5 or 6
by McCann's the Man on Dec 22, 2009 2:24 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
random pics......WHAT? I took the day off, Javy is gone, I'm like freaked. Enjoy.
~
…..and this one cracked me up.
Somebody around here is more anal than the mom on 7th heaven. Freakin' A. lol
(self-appointed President of Yunel's Cartel~~~)
by Chief Noc-A-Homa on Dec 22, 2009 12:43 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
VERY FUNNY!
"My God! Good news fans, the Braves are showing signs of life for the first time in weeks. As a matter of fact, they appear to be beating the crap out of each other."
by bravos1984 on Dec 22, 2009 2:25 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Everyone please stop freaking out
Vazquez had 1 year left, and this past season was the best of his career by far, no way he repeats that, we sold high on him, rather than selling low on Lowe. We got the salary relief we needed, we get a 19 year old prospect who throws 94 with a plus change and curve, and a lefty reliever who did very well in the AFL. Vizcaino is their #3 prospect according to Baseball America, maybe we just got Feliz back.
I say good trade, Wren, keep it up.
by BravesRaleigh on Dec 22, 2009 12:49 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
Thanks, I needed to know there were others who think the same as I do.
by bbxxj on Dec 22, 2009 12:51 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
no problem
i was actually rooting for trading Vaz over Lowe
by BravesRaleigh on Dec 22, 2009 12:56 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
i wasnt
just because . . . well nm lol
Now that this is done.
We should trade Lowe and Cabrera to the Angels for Saunders. We need a lefty in our rotation.
Hudson
Jurrjens
Saunders
Hanson
Kawakami
WOOT!
by drumzalicious on Dec 22, 2009 12:58 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
down for it
only reason i wanted vaz traded over lowe was the bigger return in prospects, and how dare you, hanson is the #2
by BravesRaleigh on Dec 22, 2009 12:59 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
He’ll be #1 after this year.
Somebody around here is more anal than the mom on 7th heaven. Freakin' A. lol
(self-appointed President of Yunel's Cartel~~~)
by Chief Noc-A-Homa on Dec 22, 2009 1:03 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
lol
You know. The whole split the rotation thing
by drumzalicious on Dec 22, 2009 1:04 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Two problems.
1. Angels wouldn’t do it for salary reasons.
2. Saunders for Lowe would downgrade our rotation. Saunders’s stuff is pretty average.
by cavebird on Dec 22, 2009 1:36 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Sign Doug Davis.
Yep. Don’t trade anyone and just sign Davis to be the #5 guy. I like Kawakami in the bullpen given the fact that Bobby just loves to overwork the relievers. Kawakami could be a valuable innings eater out of the ’pen.
by GouldisGold on Dec 22, 2009 2:53 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
If we were willing to pay Kawakami in the bullpen...
we could have kept Rafael Soriano.
by Mr. Sanchez on Dec 22, 2009 3:28 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
But Kawakami would be an innings eater. Soriano can usually go just one inning.
by GouldisGold on Dec 22, 2009 5:51 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Yes, because relievers are usually thrown out there for three or four innings at a time.
Overheard in press box, from local reporter: 'If this Moore kid was any good, they'd be up 31-0 right now.'
--Darin Gantt, on CAR@NE
by MichaelProcton on Dec 22, 2009 9:24 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
the whole point
is not the downgrading of our rotation but the freeing of funds to acquire a bat or two
by drumzalicious on Dec 23, 2009 1:11 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
ya know
being the #3 doesnt mean anything if its the yankees prospects. they trade them all lol
by drumzalicious on Dec 22, 2009 12:51 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
this
Being #3 in the Yankees system isn’t much to write home about.
I used to like Frank Wren...not anymore. I want John Schierholz back!
by mvhsbball on Dec 22, 2009 12:52 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
btw
i wasnt trying to bash his argument. i was just making a joke about how all their good prospects get traded
by drumzalicious on Dec 22, 2009 12:53 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
they're actually building a good minor system now though
this kid is 19, throws 94, good curve, good change, and i dont remember the exact numbers, but something similar to 2BB/9 and 10K/9, looking forward to this kid
by BravesRaleigh on Dec 22, 2009 12:52 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
i do to
i was just messing around about the history of their farm system. 1 year after a guy is drafted in the 1st round he is traded
by drumzalicious on Dec 22, 2009 12:53 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
haha yea i know
but now we’re the team getting their 1st rounders :)
by BravesRaleigh on Dec 22, 2009 12:55 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
im not complaining
I personally hope he is another young fireballer to come up the ranks with Teheran.
by drumzalicious on Dec 22, 2009 12:56 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
that was my 1st reaction
they’ll probably move up together
by BravesRaleigh on Dec 22, 2009 12:58 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
And Delgado and Spruill and Lopez...
we’ve got an excess of talented young arms moving up to A and AA this year. Great pieces for building future rosters or future trades. Minor, Ortegano, Oberholtzer, Stovall, and about a dozen or so others.
by Mr. Sanchez on Dec 22, 2009 2:06 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
i just hope
when the time comes we are trading the right people. . . . like jurrjens . . . .
open can of worms now
by drumzalicious on Dec 23, 2009 1:12 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
It does when you're a 4-star Baseball America player at 19.
Overheard in press box, from local reporter: 'If this Moore kid was any good, they'd be up 31-0 right now.'
--Darin Gantt, on CAR@NE
by MichaelProcton on Dec 22, 2009 1:11 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Many of us had come to expect the miracle worker netting us Javy for a few more years. We’re still potentially going to the playoffs, depending on what other move is made at 1st.
Somebody around here is more anal than the mom on 7th heaven. Freakin' A. lol
(self-appointed President of Yunel's Cartel~~~)
by Chief Noc-A-Homa on Dec 22, 2009 12:53 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Very likely the best possible trade he could make under the circumstances.
Now he can and will move forward with other moves.
by fandave on Dec 22, 2009 2:59 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
"Boone Logan was swapped for the cheaper Mike Dunn"
The cheaper, younger, and probably better.
Overheard in press box, from local reporter: 'If this Moore kid was any good, they'd be up 31-0 right now.'
--Darin Gantt, on CAR@NE
by MichaelProcton on Dec 22, 2009 12:50 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Logan was out of minor league options...
Dunn isn’t. Logan couldn’t break our staff last year, although I wish we could have given them Marek instead. Dunn seems like a great pickup.
by Mr. Sanchez on Dec 22, 2009 2:07 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, I had mentioned that possibility.
So add increased rosterflexibiltiy as well.
Overheard in press box, from local reporter: 'If this Moore kid was any good, they'd be up 31-0 right now.'
--Darin Gantt, on CAR@NE
by MichaelProcton on Dec 22, 2009 2:36 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Vizcaino was the prize of the deal.
by GouldisGold on Dec 22, 2009 5:52 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
No shit.
But Dunn is certainly a get that improves the organization that very few are mentioning.
Overheard in press box, from local reporter: 'If this Moore kid was any good, they'd be up 31-0 right now.'
--Darin Gantt, on CAR@NE
by MichaelProcton on Dec 22, 2009 9:25 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Who?
yeah that Washington guy would be great, butt Wren preferred Lowe last year … that worked out great
by a hay on Dec 22, 2009 9:56 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
What even are you talking about?
Overheard in press box, from local reporter: 'If this Moore kid was any good, they'd be up 31-0 right now.'
--Darin Gantt, on CAR@NE
by MichaelProcton on Dec 23, 2009 1:22 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I just
hope the Braves win it all before 2012, b/c the world is going to be over and Frank Wren won’t be able to do anything about it.
by CharlotteChop18 on Dec 22, 2009 12:52 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Here’s the thing about 2012, most scholars agree there is probably a 3 year differential in the actual year….i.e.
It could be 2006 right now, or already 2012.
Somebody around here is more anal than the mom on 7th heaven. Freakin' A. lol
(self-appointed President of Yunel's Cartel~~~)
by Chief Noc-A-Homa on Dec 22, 2009 12:56 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Which is all funny since it’s arbitrary to begin with. At what point zero starts at is just made up.
I wrote a novel, it's about baseball, you should buy it: https://www.createspace.com/3407939
www.dropoutproductions.com
by cbwilk on Dec 22, 2009 1:53 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Cabrera and a couple two/three star pospects for Lee?
We can hope. We do know that the Cubs were interested in Cabrera before we got him.
by bbxxj on Dec 22, 2009 12:58 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
JOJO REYES!
Cause “he’s a lefty with upside.”
I used to like Frank Wren...not anymore. I want John Schierholz back!
by mvhsbball on Dec 22, 2009 1:00 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Add Randy Gress...
and how could they turn it down?
by Mr. Sanchez on Dec 22, 2009 2:08 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Lee has a full no trade clause though.
by beeswax on Dec 22, 2009 12:59 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Im sure he'd waive it
Everyone wants to play for Bobby lol
by drumzalicious on Dec 22, 2009 1:00 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, I’m not sure he would but it would be worth a shot.
by bbxxj on Dec 22, 2009 1:04 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Cubs are kind of a weird atmosphere. I’d think it might depend on how settled he is in Chicago.
by Salty on Dec 22, 2009 1:32 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Atlanta isn’t a place guys are thinking of when they get no trade clauses. More like KC or DC, Pittsburgh, places like that.
I wrote a novel, it's about baseball, you should buy it: https://www.createspace.com/3407939
www.dropoutproductions.com
by cbwilk on Dec 22, 2009 1:54 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Or New York/Boston...
cause some guys don’t want the harsh spotlight that comes with that. Or West Coast things for family considerations like Vasquez. But agree, rarely Atlanta unless they are just unwilling to move.
by Mr. Sanchez on Dec 22, 2009 2:09 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Jake Peavy, question mark?
Overheard in press box, from local reporter: 'If this Moore kid was any good, they'd be up 31-0 right now.'
--Darin Gantt, on CAR@NE
by MichaelProcton on Dec 22, 2009 2:38 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Did he have a no-trade to Atlanta? I don’t remember ever seeing that, I think he just had a general no-trade. He’s from Alabama so my guess is Atlanta wouldn’t have been that bad, he probably grew up a Braves fan. The real problem with him was that he liked having his family in SD, and that apparently wasn’t that big of a deal since he went to Chicago. I’m guessing if they actually worked out a deal Peavey would have gladly been a Brave.
I wrote a novel, it's about baseball, you should buy it: https://www.createspace.com/3407939
www.dropoutproductions.com
by cbwilk on Dec 22, 2009 3:23 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
He had said he wouldn't waive his NTC to come.
Overheard in press box, from local reporter: 'If this Moore kid was any good, they'd be up 31-0 right now.'
--Darin Gantt, on CAR@NE
by MichaelProcton on Dec 22, 2009 9:25 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Do you have a link? Cause I don’t remember it ever getting far enough for that.
I wrote a novel, it's about baseball, you should buy it: https://www.createspace.com/3407939
www.dropoutproductions.com
by cbwilk on Dec 22, 2009 11:14 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Can't find it...
But I was a big DOB blog guy at the time.
Overheard in press box, from local reporter: 'If this Moore kid was any good, they'd be up 31-0 right now.'
--Darin Gantt, on CAR@NE
by MichaelProcton on Dec 23, 2009 1:23 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Im so effin pissed
Melky better be traded to the cubs for prospects then we make a splash for gonzo and then trade for juan riveraor something…i mean god wtf I’m just baffled and pissed we suck for next year, I have no hope if melky is in our starting of next year unless we get gonzo or something.. :’(
by JasonHeywardisGod on Dec 22, 2009 1:14 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Matt Holliday is not worth the money
I posted it higher up but i want to make sure that for all of you Holliday shoppers (pun intended lol) you know exactley what you are getting. Matt Holliday is a real good player but not even close to the type of money he is looking for. His career OPS is 933, which is really good but his away OPS (playing all over, averaged at all the stadiums besides Coors Field) is 808. I repeate 808!
by Freemans on Dec 22, 2009 1:14 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Wren’s not going anywhere near that, man. Milton Bradley has a better chance of playing for the Braves next season.
Somebody around here is more anal than the mom on 7th heaven. Freakin' A. lol
(self-appointed President of Yunel's Cartel~~~)
by Chief Noc-A-Homa on Dec 22, 2009 1:16 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
except a majority of his away games came in SD, SF, and LA three of the more pitcher friendly parks in all of baseball, if you’re going to punish him for Coors numbers then you have to consider the other side of it. Not to mention he can run the bases well and plays very good D in left
by McCann's the Man on Dec 22, 2009 1:48 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
You are right, up to a point. All i am saying is that his value will not match his contract. we dont need another Lowe on our hands. These same kind of arguments were all used for him last year and look where we are now. Let someone else overpay for him.
by Freemans on Dec 22, 2009 2:15 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
if it’s 6-8 years as has been the rumored offer from st louis then you’re right, I want no part of that
by McCann's the Man on Dec 22, 2009 2:27 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
except
he had the same splits with colorado all of his away splits were OPS drastically lower than his home and i believe the highest was .859
he is a good player but would essentially be a RH Brian McCann. Which isnt bad but if we are gonna go 17-18 mil a year on a guy i would rather us
1. Sign Jason Bay and hope he can be average in LF.
2. Trade for Miguel Cabrera
3. Get a one yr rental out of Magglio Ordornez
by drumzalicious on Dec 23, 2009 1:37 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I'm disappointed, but cautiously optimistic.
As long as it frees up enough salary to finally sign someone who can hit home runs, I won’t complain too much. Even if Cabrera is a JAG.
Vazquez was awesome for us, but we traded him at the peak of his value after a career year. We got an average-hitting OF who can play a little defense, essentially traded Logan for Logan, and got a great pitching prospect out of it. Sure, I’d like to have seen Swisher come back on this one, but I’m sticking to the idea that “as long as we freed up money, it will be spent well,” and I’ll just repeat that to myself until proven otherwise.
by FineHamAbounds on Dec 22, 2009 1:15 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
There is no reason to be optimistic
we are going to suck, we have no clean-up hitter we have nothing
worst pitching rotation
we suck, welcome 3rd place again
by JasonHeywardisGod on Dec 22, 2009 1:17 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
bad rotation?
I’ll take Hanson and JJ all day over the Mets, Marlins, and Nats staff…just not the Phillies, not yet at least.
by C Shint on Dec 22, 2009 1:18 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
we got worse than what we were before and got nothing in return is what im saying
and yes having lowe instead of vazquez is worse
by JasonHeywardisGod on Dec 22, 2009 1:19 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Except $10 million to spend.
Overheard in press box, from local reporter: 'If this Moore kid was any good, they'd be up 31-0 right now.'
--Darin Gantt, on CAR@NE
by MichaelProcton on Dec 22, 2009 1:21 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah
what impact bat can we get wit that on the FA..let me tell u that…none.
by JasonHeywardisGod on Dec 22, 2009 1:23 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
What good would six good starters have done us?
let me tell u that…none, because our offense can’t pick them up. See: year, last.
Overheard in press box, from local reporter: 'If this Moore kid was any good, they'd be up 31-0 right now.'
--Darin Gantt, on CAR@NE
by MichaelProcton on Dec 22, 2009 1:26 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Exactly
And IMO having Hanson, Hudson and JJ for a full year (barring injury) is still a top notch rotation not to mention having Lowe and KK at that back end. Everyone needs to relax
by C Shint on Dec 22, 2009 1:28 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Hopefully we get to match up Ken K with Roy Halladay again.
Somebody around here is more anal than the mom on 7th heaven. Freakin' A. lol
(self-appointed President of Yunel's Cartel~~~)
by Chief Noc-A-Homa on Dec 22, 2009 1:29 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
That money doesn't mean shit
if you end up with any combination of Nady/Byrd/LaRoche.
by hoboken_wood on Dec 22, 2009 3:47 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Dont Fret
I can honestly say that I had little hope for this Braves team last year when i wondered about KK, Vazquez, and the price we paid for Lowe. Reality is JJ is better, we have Hanson, Hudson, KK and Lowe is still good. As long as the Braves get a good bat, they are still a threat to win.
by C Shint on Dec 22, 2009 1:17 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Someone with an ESPN Insider acct...
Can you relay what Keith Law says about the Braves return? I couldn’t care less about what he thinks about the Yankees.
by FineHamAbounds on Dec 22, 2009 1:20 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Really Frank? Javy for Melky and a prospect? (Boone and Dunn are wash imo). We were only supposed to trade Javy for a power bat or a couple can’t miss prospects.
Seriously? Melky? WTF?
"Frank Wren = Epic Fail." Mark Bradley @ AJC
by Griffon on Dec 22, 2009 1:22 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Vizcaino is considered as much a can't miss as a 19-year-old can be.
And given that Cabrera’s downside is average MLB OF, I’d say that’s pretty much the equivalent. Because he’s already doing it.
Overheard in press box, from local reporter: 'If this Moore kid was any good, they'd be up 31-0 right now.'
--Darin Gantt, on CAR@NE
by MichaelProcton on Dec 22, 2009 1:23 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I disagree
Melky’s upside is that of an average MLB OF. No power, no speed, decent glove, good arm, mediocre batting average. As far as Vizcaino, I am happy with getting a pitcher with such potential, but let’s not anoint him Neftali the 2nd yet. Not many had even heard of him till just now. Unlike Montero.
"Frank Wren = Epic Fail." Mark Bradley @ AJC
by Griffon on Dec 22, 2009 1:42 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
How do you figure?
He’s only 25, and he improved last year from ’08.
Overheard in press box, from local reporter: 'If this Moore kid was any good, they'd be up 31-0 right now.'
--Darin Gantt, on CAR@NE
by MichaelProcton on Dec 22, 2009 2:39 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I wonder how Vizcaino will rank in the Braves system?
by Sparhawk on Dec 22, 2009 1:24 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Probably top ten, at least.
He seems very comparable to Teheran.
Overheard in press box, from local reporter: 'If this Moore kid was any good, they'd be up 31-0 right now.'
--Darin Gantt, on CAR@NE
by MichaelProcton on Dec 22, 2009 1:26 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
From Jonathan Mayo at MLB.com (got this from MLBTR):
Vizcaino signed with the Yankees out of the Dominican Republic in July 2007 and made his debut in the United States a year later, in the Gulf Coast League. The 6-foot right-hander went 3-2 with a 3.68 ERA over 44 innings that summer, allowing 38 hits and just 13 walks while striking out 48. He moved up to short-season Staten Island in 2009 and was dominant against largely older hitters. At age 18, Vizcaino finished with a 2.13 ERA and .211 batting average against in 10 starts. Over his 42 1/3 IP, he gave up just 34 hits and 15 walks while racking up 52 strikeouts.
Vizcaino gets hitters to swing and miss with a fastball he can crank up to 96 mph. He’s got a hammer curveball, a power breaking pitch that could be a plus offering in time. Like with many young pitchers, the changeup lags behind the other offerings. It needs development, but it is emerging as a third pitch for him. He’ll make his full-season debut in 2010 at age 19 and looks like a high-end rotation prospect with a ton of upside.
This is a very nice silver lining to this deal. I’m just gonna choose to ignore the rest of the deal and focus on this guy’s crazy good potential.
by MTSU11 on Dec 22, 2009 1:28 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
yeah. and I’ve seen Dunn pitch. He has pretty good stuff.
Somebody around here is more anal than the mom on 7th heaven. Freakin' A. lol
(self-appointed President of Yunel's Cartel~~~)
by Chief Noc-A-Homa on Dec 22, 2009 1:31 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I was impressed when I saw him this summer. Plus, he’s super easy to recognize with his bald head.
I wrote a novel, it's about baseball, you should buy it: https://www.createspace.com/3407939
www.dropoutproductions.com
by cbwilk on Dec 22, 2009 1:57 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Yep.....
Sickels likes him as well. Although we all wished it were Lowe instead, it seems like the Braves can make the next part of this and still retain the integrity of the farm system.
by mikie baseball on Dec 22, 2009 1:36 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Hits are gonna be pretty hard to come by...
for teams visiting Myrtle and Rome.
by Mr. Sanchez on Dec 22, 2009 2:11 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I woke up this morning to my brother telling me that the braves traded vazquez to the yanks. First I thought it was a joke given the nature of his last experience with the yanks but then I thought we were going to be getting a very nice return. I was thinking either montero or swisher + a different top prospect, I figured hell our search for a 1B may be over if we got montero and we’d still have money to get Holliday/Bay but nope looks like we’ll have to bank on Vizcaino becoming Neftali Feliz 2.0
by McCann's the Man on Dec 22, 2009 1:30 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
If anybody is interested...
Listen live at 3 p.m. ET on braves.com when General Manager Frank Wren discusses the five-player trade they made with the Yankees.
People will come Ray. The one constant through all the years, Ray, has been baseball. America has rolled by like an army of steamrollers. It has been erased like a blackboard, rebuilt and erased again. But baseball has marked the time. This field, this game: it's a part of our past, Ray. It reminds of us of all that once was good and it could be again.
by mvandonsel on Dec 22, 2009 1:31 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
what he said
Somebody around here is more anal than the mom on 7th heaven. Freakin' A. lol
(self-appointed President of Yunel's Cartel~~~)
by Chief Noc-A-Homa on Dec 22, 2009 1:46 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
You’re too calm for this thread, come back later.
"Matt Diaz is a baseball player."-Joe Simpson
by 10-4 on Dec 22, 2009 1:50 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
lol...
Yeah, sometimes I feel like I am too calm for this website altogether. I love the Braves, but I trust the decision-making of the people in charge. I know I couldn’t do their job better then they already do it. I think most are over-reacting about this trade. It could be horrible, then again, it could be great. We won’t know for a while. Just sit back, relax, and enjoy the ride that is baseball.
People will come Ray. The one constant through all the years, Ray, has been baseball. America has rolled by like an army of steamrollers. It has been erased like a blackboard, rebuilt and erased again. But baseball has marked the time. This field, this game: it's a part of our past, Ray. It reminds of us of all that once was good and it could be again.
by mvandonsel on Dec 22, 2009 2:34 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Amen brother.
My reaction to the trade was “Meh, i guess he got what he could get.” Its disapointing that we didn’t net a blatantly obvious win-win, but time will tell. I didn’t feel like cussing in all caps, firing someone, or jumping off a ledge.
"Matt Diaz is a baseball player."-Joe Simpson
by 10-4 on Dec 22, 2009 5:45 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Link??
I used to like Frank Wren...not anymore. I want John Schierholz back!
by mvhsbball on Dec 22, 2009 2:58 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I got that info from an email from the Braves.
People will come Ray. The one constant through all the years, Ray, has been baseball. America has rolled by like an army of steamrollers. It has been erased like a blackboard, rebuilt and erased again. But baseball has marked the time. This field, this game: it's a part of our past, Ray. It reminds of us of all that once was good and it could be again.
by mvandonsel on Dec 22, 2009 3:04 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
melky, dunn, viz
reading scouting reports on Melky he is described as
calm, meticulous, outstanding fielder with great arm.
much more disciplined than francouer. drives the ball.
decent BB/SO ratio. may step up in smaller market
without the NY press microscope. played LF mostly
but can play CF well.
Melky/Diaz; Mclouth; Heyward looks ok to me.
Mike Dunn highly rated as prospect loogy. 92-95mph
range; named best slider in yankees mL organization 2008.
needs work on control but said to have excellent upside.
I was never impressed with logan or for that matter O’flar.
the dominican kid may make this trade look lopsided in
a few years. remember how we got smotlz for alexander,
we’ll just have to see.
dollars are freed up for a quality player at lB. freeman
needs more time. Vazquez is solid but this is the way
a lower budget team can build. you don’t need a star at
every slot yet Melky is gonna step up from the shadow
in NY and is a better player than franc or church.
by sealift67 on Dec 22, 2009 1:35 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
I agree
The package we received is not bad at all.
by Charmin519 on Dec 22, 2009 1:40 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Not impressed with O’Flar? Are you Tim Hohn?
Somebody around here is more anal than the mom on 7th heaven. Freakin' A. lol
(self-appointed President of Yunel's Cartel~~~)
by Chief Noc-A-Homa on Dec 22, 2009 1:45 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I wonder if Laroche
…would accept a 2 year deal. He’s not getting the money or the years he was hoping for, so maybe he’d come back for 2 years, 20-24 million. We could afford that and he would keep 1B warm for Freeman,
by coldriver10 on Dec 22, 2009 1:39 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
No
For 10-12mil a year on LaRoche, NO. To me that is not even worth it. Use the money wisely somewhere else, LaRoche for 6-8mil a year is reasonable, nothing more.
by C Shint on Dec 22, 2009 1:42 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I just don’t think he would take that little. I agree if I’m paying 10 million a year it should be someone that has two good halves instead of just one, but I just don’t think 8 million would get him back. And I don’t know what other good FA 1B there are out there.
by coldriver10 on Dec 22, 2009 1:49 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
i really think the Braves dont need a great bat, another guy that can hit 20HR is fine with me, id rather have a better bullpen but we let Soriano go. Either way there are other decent 1b out there. There is DeRosa, Blalock, LaRoche, Delgado. Maybe even Tejada at 1b? Thome? Nomar (cough cough)? I mean there are other options out there that could work better.
by C Shint on Dec 22, 2009 1:55 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
It seems to me that some of you guys doubt this squad. Werent we a week out of the playoffs last season? I feel as if Im one of the few on here that doesnt think our team is much worse than last year and we dont even have a 1b yet. Better? No. Worse? No. With Heyward? I’ll let yall answer that.
Stop rosterbating. I still only view two teams as legitimately better than us going into next season. Philly and St. Louis if theyre able to sign Holliday. The west coast teams are all insanely inconsistent. We havent even plugged the holes yet.
by aRC on Dec 22, 2009 1:40 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Well we have to rosterbate, because as of right now, we haven’t done much to improve our squad. Unless you consider Wagner and Saito an upgrade to Gonzalez and Soriano.
We lost our best pitcher from last year, and our anemic offense has actually gotten worse. (Just as of right now.) Obviously we’re not done, but so far we’re not a playoff team.
by pancanbra on Dec 22, 2009 1:53 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
No.
Our best pitcher was JJ. #2 would have been Hanson had he played all season in the Bigs.
by C Shint on Dec 22, 2009 1:57 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
No
Coulda woulda shoulda. You don’t know what Hanson would’ve done over a full season. Javy was the best.
The west coast teams are insanely inconsistent? Like there Braves aren’t right there with them.
Wren pulled off another lame move. He’s more interested in saving money, not winning next year.
by FitzFan on Dec 22, 2009 3:30 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
offense worse? I’d say an OF of Cabrera/Diaz, McLouth, and Heyward already makes our offense better than the start of last year, I don’t see how you can argue it isn’t. As long as we get a competent 1B (Delgado, Glaus, Nady) then the offense is greatly improved, plus I’d expect a bounce back from Chipper
by McCann's the Man on Dec 22, 2009 2:30 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
TINSTAAPP
Amazingly, I still have the Braves at around 88 WAR. Down from the 90+ I had them at previously. Biggest improvements can be made at 2B or CI.
vr, Xei
by Xeifrank on Dec 22, 2009 1:47 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
CO?
Overheard in press box, from local reporter: 'If this Moore kid was any good, they'd be up 31-0 right now.'
--Darin Gantt, on CAR@NE
by MichaelProcton on Dec 22, 2009 2:43 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Gotcha.
Thanks.
Overheard in press box, from local reporter: 'If this Moore kid was any good, they'd be up 31-0 right now.'
--Darin Gantt, on CAR@NE
by MichaelProcton on Dec 22, 2009 9:26 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
at first..
i was pissed, but the more i think about it ,there’s probably one big move left. Let just hope…
by wisco on Dec 22, 2009 1:51 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
+1. Let’s see what happens. As I see it, the Braves have just about restocked the farm system after emptying it out to rent Teixeira.
by John Holton on Dec 22, 2009 1:54 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Wow. I'm pissed
actually so much so that I punched a wall and now my hand is throbbing so much it hurts to type.
We got nothing for this deal really except for prospects. my personal eyewitness breakdown of Melky:solid 7 hitter, not what we needed. plays above average defense. not what we needed.
I hope Franky has something up his sleeve…
I is for I can't wait for spring to get here- Matty D
(Yunel is still the Queen of Hearts)
by GoBravesNY on Dec 22, 2009 2:31 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Mr. Bennett? Are you there?
Overheard in press box, from local reporter: 'If this Moore kid was any good, they'd be up 31-0 right now.'
--Darin Gantt, on CAR@NE
by MichaelProcton on Dec 22, 2009 2:43 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
haha
although that was the only reaction i could give. I was getting it from Yankee fans.
I is for I can't wait for spring to get here- Matty D
(Yunel is still the Queen of Hearts)
by GoBravesNY on Dec 22, 2009 7:34 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Good lord
Scarlett Johansson is so hot.
I used to like Frank Wren...not anymore. I want John Schierholz back!
by mvhsbball on Dec 22, 2009 2:53 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
[Heyward/Diaz/Schafer] > Melky
Way to fill a need we didn’t have. We have 3 outfielders better than Melky, and the only way Heyward and Schafer should have been blocked is for a power OF bat.
This makes absolutely no sense
60% of the time, it works every time
by ATLandUNC on Dec 22, 2009 3:02 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
No sense at all.......
I am sick that we gave up Vazquez for players we didn’t need. I can only hope this is part one of a two part trade…….
" If you're going to be accused of something, being accused of being a nice guy is not the worst thing to be accused of."
Mark Richt (November 3, 2009)
by HEYJUDE on Dec 22, 2009 3:19 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Yes, because Schafer and Heyward are sure bets to be great early next year.
AA success FTW!
Overheard in press box, from local reporter: 'If this Moore kid was any good, they'd be up 31-0 right now.'
--Darin Gantt, on CAR@NE
by MichaelProcton on Dec 22, 2009 9:28 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
It’s pretty one-sided, and the best player coming back is a pitcher who’s possibly 4 years away, when FW practically put up a billboard that he’s looking for offense in 2010.
He also traded the guy he didn’t want to.
I guess the silver lining among all this desperation is that he seemed pretty intent on freeing up this money, so possibly it’s for someone worth a damn.
by hoboken_wood on Dec 22, 2009 3:55 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
You know why he did this? To free up money.
We may not have enough money to sign Bay, but LaRoche is now back in the picture. It is now financially possibe to satisfy his request for a 3 year, $31 Million deal. I would prefer 1-2 years, but we really need him back!
by GouldisGold on Dec 22, 2009 5:56 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Now what & Melky C ? Are you kidding me ?
Okay seriously Melky Cabera ? Come on man we didn’t even get Swisher out of them and Vasquez had a great career year ? I am guessing that they must have found out from other sources that Vasquez was not going to be as easy to resign to a contract extentsion as they orignally thought. Lowe is our number #1 and we are no stuck with him b/c of his contract.
I do like the idea of dumping Logan (offers little to nothing at the MLB level) and as far as they other pitchers we got in Vizciano (forgive the spelling) he is going to be something according to alot of MLB prospect experts what was he the number #2 or #3 prospect in the Yankees system and Dunn is way better than Logan and a hell of alot cheaper.
This trade is similar to the Renteria deal as posted above b/c we sold high on Vasquez. The only thing you have to worry about is will the prospect pan out ? Looks like they should.
Melky did okay in 2009; with 13hrs and 68RBI’s, but he is not the power bat or above average bat I thought Wren was looking at ?
Either way we still need to upgrade and my guess is that it could still be an OF but hopefully a 1B ? However their is nothing in terms of a power bat that plays 1B on the free agent market.
Nady I would say is no longer an opition b/c he simply doesn’t provide the power we need and with Melky on the team we no longer need a guy that can play the OF spots as well as 1B; Now we need a power hitting first baseman and going luck getting one of those Wren b/c their are almost none available via trade or free agency.
Go Braves and get some offense.
by Holty_Panthers_Fan on Dec 22, 2009 4:29 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
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