Braves' Reliever Soriano Traded To Rays
by cbwilk on Dec 10, 2009 2:16 AM EST
in Braves Trade News
336 comments
The Atlanta Braves have traded right handed reliever Rafael Soriano to the Tampa Bay Rays. The deal is pending Soriano passing a physical. The releiver put the Braves in a tough spot when he unexpectedly accepted their offer of arbitration, which was offered with the belief that he would leave as a free agent and they would be compensated with two high draft picks.
The deal isn't official yet, but it is rumored that the return for Soriano is fellow right handed reliever Jesse Chavez, who appeared in 73 games for the Pirates in 2009, collecting a 1-4 record, 4.01 ERA and 1.35 WHIP. If he is all the Braves are able to recieve in return for their 2009 closer this situation will have been a major loss for the organization, as Chavez isn't a lock to make the team and he certainly doesn't have the value of a late 1st round pick and a supplemental draft pick.
UPDATE: Soriano has agreed to a one year, non-guarnateed contract for around 7 million with the Rays, which was part of the contingency for this deal to go through. Additionally, Chavez, who Tampa Bay aquired recently in exchange for 2B Aki Iwamura, is the player the Braves will receive in return for Soriano.
A one year, non-guaranteed contract? How rough was the free agent market to Soriano? Brandon Lyon got three guaranteed years from the Tigers and he's not really as good as Soriano, definitely doesn't have the electric arm that the Dominican does. It seems like Soriano and his agent were betting that there will be more money available next year in free agency, but if he blows him arm out again not only will he not get money next offseason, he won't get money during 2010. Strange stuff.
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Are you kidding me?
I’m a huge Braves fan that lives in Tampa, so I see a lot of their games and this is all we could get for him. Holy Crap you gotta be kidding me, I would take anyone form there low A team before Chavez. When they traded for him all the St. Pete Times could say is "live arm, but his fastball has NO MOVEMENT whatsoever. Wren better redeem himself after this trade, cause damn how do you go from getting two picks to Jesse F@#%ing Chavez.
Wren has nothing to redeem from...
Wren did the right thing by offering arb. It was not his decision that Soriano picked it (which it was very smart of him and/or his agent). The other alternative was to get NOTHING in return. Also for the people that is hating Soriano please let me know if you would not jump at the posibility of getting a guaranty $8 million dollars. I would have love the picks of course but what can you do he did the best he could with the situation he was presented.
It was a 3 day distraction – a fairly annoying one since other matters could have been attended to – but now it’s over. We could argue all day long about the value of 2 lost draft picks vs. having to actually pay them in June, but it is what it is, and now it’s done. At least Soriano had the decency to allow the trade/give-away.
Time for more rosterbation.
I agree completely…except with the spelling of guarantee.
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Dec 10, 2009 10:36 AM EST up reply actions
the return of the grammar police!
As a former spelling bee champion, it warms my heart.
"Matt Diaz is a baseball player."-Joe Simpson
R O C K
ooo the C is silent
Heyward,Hanson,and Shaffer r ready now!! Why do you think they havent signed the "right handed bat"?
by fatazfoot on Jan 7, 2009 8:59 PM EST
Woo hoo, I'm a college man, I won't need my high school diploma any more [set fire to diploma hanging on wall]...
I am so smart, I am so smart, I am so smart, I am so smart, S M R T, I mean S M A R T.
by Mr. Sanchez on Dec 10, 2009 11:48 AM EST up reply actions
Doesn’t the diploma have Flanders’ name crossed out on it?
"SIGN PUJOLS OR FIRE WREN" ~ Swo12bv
by Smoltz's Beard on Dec 10, 2009 11:52 AM EST up reply actions
Damn…must be thinking of another episode.
"SIGN PUJOLS OR FIRE WREN" ~ Swo12bv
by Smoltz's Beard on Dec 10, 2009 12:02 PM EST up reply actions
Probably his belt sander...
I think that’s right, among several other things he’s “borrowed”.
by Mr. Sanchez on Dec 10, 2009 12:04 PM EST up reply actions
Nah, it’s some sort of award that he “won” and when it zooms in you can clearly see Flanders crossed out and Homer scrawled next to it.
But the belt sander is classic.
"SIGN PUJOLS OR FIRE WREN" ~ Swo12bv
by Smoltz's Beard on Dec 10, 2009 12:19 PM EST up reply actions
I remember that...
great, now I’ll be thinking about it all day.
by Mr. Sanchez on Dec 10, 2009 12:41 PM EST up reply actions
Welcome to my life.
"SIGN PUJOLS OR FIRE WREN" ~ Swo12bv
by Smoltz's Beard on Dec 10, 2009 12:59 PM EST up reply actions
And mine.
At least half of what comes out of my mouth is recycled Simpsons dialogue. But you can come up with stats to prove anything. Forfty percent of all people know that.
"...Braves tie! ...Braves tie! ...Braves tie!"
by The Keith Lockhart Era on Dec 10, 2009 1:14 PM EST up reply actions
haha
you’re a spelling bee champion too?! What grade?
"Sometimes I wonder what'd it be like to be outside and not hear the birds chirping...I think it'd be kind of nice."
by alligatorimpersonator on Dec 10, 2009 6:44 PM EST up reply actions
Soriano was a bug that Wren needed to kill ASAP. Raffy was a distraction
He was distracting us from moving forward. I would of
liked to get a little bit more but Jesse is not the end of the world. So what if he isn’t a first round. Prospects are not guraneeted players.
I’ve seen Jesse pitch some games vs the Braves last season when he was a Pirate and I liked his stuff. I rememeber when the Pirates were dumping there players last year that we should pick up Jesse.
I like the move for what it was, a despression one that needed to be done.
Good job Frank.
by AlRoBraves95 on Dec 10, 2009 12:32 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Is a despression deal...
…on that is both desperate and depressing? If so, I like the new word!
No, Wren’s mistake was jumping the gun to sign Wagner and Saito before he knew whether Soriano or Gonzalez would accept arbitration. Sure, you may say that Soriano’s acceptance was a shock and came out of the blue, but it is Wren’s job to either know these things or minimize the risk of them occuring. In this case, he bet and bet wrongly when he could probably have played it safe and had a terrific bullpen anyway. That was a blunder.
As blunders go, it wasn’t an Earth-shattering one, but it was a pretty severe blow for a less-funded team that needs to make all the right moves in a competitive division. Wren’s actions not only cost us draft picks, but also may have potentially jeopardized any value Ryan Church has on the open market, since Wren DFA’d him to clear a one-day spot for Soriano.
I like some of the deals Wren makes very much (Javy, Jurrjens), but he also makes his share of panic moves. First over-bidding for Lowe and now this. He (or his scouting department) also did not guess correctly on Marek, and they’re now compounding that mistake by keeping him on the 40-man and losing a guy like Osuna.
I’m cautiously optimistic that Wren will get the offseason figured out, and I’m reserving judgment until the end, but there’s no way not to see this blunder as knocking him down a few pegs.
If Albert played in the AFL, they’d have to rename it the AZ/NM Fall League, based on where his homers landed.
What evidence do you have that Wagner and/or Saito would been available later if they had not been signed when they were signed? If you have no such evidence, then asserting that they were signed too quickly is baseless.
And Soriano was either going to be offered arbitration or not. If he wasn’t offered arbitration or if no team chose to sign him as a free agent because he was over-priced, had too much history of injuries and/or was also going to cost picks, then we would not have received extra draft picks in any event. So, asserting that Wren somehow cost us picks is also wrong.
Finally, Church simply didn’t have much, if any, trade value and, therefore, in all probability, was going to be non-tendered, if he hadn’t been DFA’ed 1st. So, wrong again.
Isn’t that what Wren’s job is though? Figuring out if those guys would still be available? The reality is we would have been fine keeping Soriano or Gonzalez and getting Wagner or Saito. So why make those signings before arbitration has been rejected? It put all the leverage in Soriano’s court. He knew we didn’t want to keep him so once he accepts he gets more money than he probably will otherwise in a down market and he can pick where he goes.
Maybe he did his job...
…and had evidence that Wagner would not be available. As I note in the post below, the Saito signing is pretty irrelevant here—-it’s not like we could have kept Wagner and Soriano.
Given the wealth of RP options on the market, losing Wagner at $7M would not have been the end of the world, even if he somehow had other suitors (which we have no evidence of). Soriano and Saito would have been perfectly fine (better?) at the back end of the bullpen and would not have cost a draft pick.
If Albert played in the AFL, they’d have to rename it the AZ/NM Fall League, based on where his homers landed.
Although you personally might not have particularly wanted Wagner, the Braves’ brain trust did. They really wanted him and went and got him. Mission accomplished.
If they really preferred Wagner over Soriano + draft pick – vesting option, then fine. That’s a talent evaluation call (that I disagree with), and we’ll see how they do. My bet’s that they lose in that exchange, but we’ll see. They obviously know far more than I about talent evaluation.
However, as Wren implied in mutliple interviews since Soriano accepted arb, and as he confirmed by the speed with which he dumped Soriano on the first available team, they were very surprised by Soriano’s decision. From that we can reason that they did not fully analyze the values of the two possible options I explained above. That’s a mistake, and one that could have been easily rectified by simply waiting a few days.
If Albert played in the AFL, they’d have to rename it the AZ/NM Fall League, based on where his homers landed.
I disagree with your presumption...
…that the Braves would have waited on Wagner if they thought Soriano was going to accept arbitration (which they clearly didn’t). In that case, I think the Braves would not have offered it, which would have been even worse, albeit only slightly.
No, I didn’t say that. They obviously would have waited if they thought Soriano was going to accept arbitration. They didn’t think so, and that was a huge blunder.
BTW, I just realized that the write-up above by gondee indicates that Soriano is going to sign a $7M “non-guaranteed” contract with Tampa, whatever the fuck that is. If it is really non-guaranteed, it is yet another reason why the Braves are overpaying for Wagner (whose $7M is guaranteed) over Soriano.
If Albert played in the AFL, they’d have to rename it the AZ/NM Fall League, based on where his homers landed.
I agree. I think the answer is that Wren thought that by virtue of signing Wagner and Saito he was making it even less likely that Soriano and Gonzalez would accept arbitration. He got too cute.
If Albert played in the AFL, they’d have to rename it the AZ/NM Fall League, based on where his homers landed.
i agree to some extent…I wouldn’t have signed Saito so early…. we can disagree about the timing of the Wagner signing, but if Wren had waited on signing Saito he could have at least bluffed like he was going continued with a bullpen of Wagner and Soriano (which would have been a destructive force).
We can match Soriano and Wagner against anyone and play 7 inning games (6 if u think Moylan is locking down the 7th).
a bullpen of Soriano and Wagner would have been costly, $15M, but it would not have been prohibitive to our other goals (it would have only been 5M more than we are spending now and it would be considerably better).
the Wagner signing may have been early, but it is helpful to set the market for relivers, instead of someone else setting it higher, and we got our closer early which allowed us to conintue in out other pursuits. But with the breadth of middle relief available this offseason signing an aging RP with a partially torn elbow ligament this early was unnecessary.
Wagner was perfect becuase he requires a small committment, whereas presumably the other closers will want more money and more years. Saito’s role could be filled by any of a number of guys.
Heyward,Hanson,and Shaffer r ready now!! Why do you think they havent signed the "right handed bat"?
by fatazfoot on Jan 7, 2009 8:59 PM EST
Are you refering to Proctor or Saito or both?
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Dec 11, 2009 9:33 AM EST up reply actions
Saito…Proctor costs nothing essentially
Heyward,Hanson,and Shaffer r ready now!! Why do you think they havent signed the "right handed bat"?
by fatazfoot on Jan 7, 2009 8:59 PM EST
How much is Saito worth?...
JJ Putz signed a similar deal with higher incentives. Brandon Lyon signed for longer, and more. Neither has pitched as well as Saito did even at his worst last year. I’m thinking that deal keeps looking better and better the more I see deals similar players are signing. And in the same mold, look at the track record of Soriano vs. Wagner at similar salary (or if Soriano is 7 or more, a higher salary). Compared to what others are getting, I think we got pretty reasonable deals for Wags and Saito.
its not necessarily the amount Saito signed for (for the record Im perfectly happy with Wagner and i’ve like that signing since day one), it when he was signed…by signing him so early it prevented us from having a contingency plan if Soriano had accepted Arb. the difference between Lyon and Putz and Saito is age and injuries and upside…Putz upside is probably greater than Saito and Lyon is more durable (younger and less of an injury risk).
I agree though compared to what’s happened since our deal wiht Saito looks good, but it lead to the poor reutrn for SOriano.
Heyward,Hanson,and Shaffer r ready now!! Why do you think they havent signed the "right handed bat"?
by fatazfoot on Jan 7, 2009 8:59 PM EST
Really?...
maybe it effects the return as we might not look as desperate to deal. But as for a “contingency plan”, I think that would ultimately be the same regardless of Saito. If he accepts, we trade with or without having Saito already signed. I’ll give you the return, although that’s certainly not a certainty, but the contingency plan was probably the same either way: If he accepts, we trade him for the best we can get as soon as possible.
without signing Saito Wren has some bargaining ability, because its conceivable that we just say fuck it, we’re keeping Soriano in the our pen. As has been mentioend his base is only 5M more than Saito and that is workable. With that in mind other teams would have to up the ante to obtain him. And thus we could have gotten something better than Chavez (FYI the way things turned out i dont think Chavez is that bad of a return i would have preferred Nick Lachey, but thats ok…+1 to anyone who gets the reference)
Im sure we probably would have still trade Soriano, but at least we could have bluffed like we would keep him… with the way things turned out no one would beleive our bluff bc its inconceivable to spend 25M on a bullpen (or w/e it is), espeically inconceivable to have 4 lock down arms in a pen, when your team has other pressing needs.
Heyward,Hanson,and Shaffer r ready now!! Why do you think they havent signed the "right handed bat"?
by fatazfoot on Jan 7, 2009 8:59 PM EST
a bullpen of Soriano and Wagner would have been costly, $15M, but it would not have been prohibitive to our other goals (it would have only been 5M more than we are spending now and it would be considerably better).
Exactly, and as I said above, it might not have even been a $5M spread, since Saito has $2M in possible incentives. Certainly a plausible bluff to get Wren some more leverage, and perhaps you just take the extra $2.5M (half a season) from somewhere else until July and deal Soriano then.
If Albert played in the AFL, they’d have to rename it the AZ/NM Fall League, based on where his homers landed.
I pretty much agree with that.
We don’t have enough evidence to determine whether Wagner would have been available later or whether he would have already signed with someone else. I don’t think Saito is particularly relevant—-it is not like we could have afforded Wagner and Soriano if we didn’t sign Saito—-two closers paid as closers is a luxury the Braves don’t have the payroll to afford.
As you note, the draft picks were never there for the taking, other than the first rounder we gave up for Wagner. That bothered me about the Wagner signing, but if Wagner is the Wagner of old it may be worth it.
Finally, I don’t see how the Church dfa’ing harmed us at all. It was simply a procedural move. We were obviously going to non-tender him come Saturday (and still will), so we didn’t lose any time to trade him—-before we dfa’d him, we had until Saturday to trade him and we still do now. I don’t think anyone expected us to tender him a contract, so I don’t think his value was hurt by us acknowledging this.
We do not know whether other teams were beating down Saito’s and Wagner’s doors or not. However, given how poorly the market for RPs has developed, it’s likely that one or both of Saito and Wagner would have been available after the arb deadline.
Regardless, it’s quite obvious that Wren should have waited for Soriano to accept arbitration before signing Wagner or Saito or some other fungible RP to be his 8th inning guy. It also seems obvious that Wren overpaid for Wagner, since Soriano is the superior option and now has signed for the exact same amount, without costing a draft pick or requiring a vesting player option.
If Albert played in the AFL, they’d have to rename it the AZ/NM Fall League, based on where his homers landed.
That's a two big assumptions
…and I disagree with both of them. Your assumptions are:
1. Soriano is better than Wagner. They both have risks, I consider them approximately even, maybe slight edge to Wagner due to proven track record of being a very good relief pitcher.
2. Saito is relevant to this equation. For him to be relevant, the Braves would have had to been able to afford Wagner and Soriano. We couldn’t.
Yes, I think Soriano is better than Wagner. You may disagree with that, but I don’t see how you can disagree with Soriano + draft pick + no vesting option is better than Wagner.
And I don’t know whether the Braves could not have kept both Soriano and Wagner for payroll reasons. Certianly, they had to budget for the $5.5M potential salary to Saito (with incentives), and from there to $7M the extra $1.5M seems like splitting hairs.
If Albert played in the AFL, they’d have to rename it the AZ/NM Fall League, based on where his homers landed.
The $5.5 million is not the relevant figure...
…iirc $2 million of the incentives (almost all of them) are tied to games finished marks that Saito has not possible shot of reaching unless he is used as a closer for a good part of the season, which may or may not happen even if Wagner gets hurt. So, no, I don’t think they have really budgeted that at all, just the base plus the small incentives based on games pitched.
I also don’t mind the vesting option—-if Wagner finished 50 games he will have to pitch effectively to keep the role and he won’t be a horrible deal at that price for 2011.
The draft pick sucks, however. With that much I agree. I try to keep solace in the fact that the Phillies are the two time defending pennant winners and having a lefty closer is probably better than a righty closer for that reason.
to be honest,...
i hope Wags reaches his incentive. With his past, if healthy, $6.5 is a steal for that level of production.
And his deal is $6.75 this year, not $7m. The reason most are saying 1 yr, $7m is because that is the guaranteed part when you add the $250,000 buyout.
WOW!!! Wren better have something up his sleeve because this is jacked up.
by CaptainRockSxD on Dec 10, 2009 2:38 AM EST via mobile reply actions
Everyone trust Wren, he knows what he is doing
He probably has a deal in place for lowe and signing Matt Holliday as we speak :D
by JasonHeywardisGod on Dec 10, 2009 2:44 AM EST reply actions
Here is a gem from MLBTR. It kind of concerns the trade.
“This deal does not make the Braves any stronger. I will keep saying it the 2010 Nationla League East will belong to the Nats- They have a new closer, Zimmerman at the top- if they pick up Marquis and Livan they will havea very solid rotation, a tough lineup with a legit MVP candidate in Dunn- The Nationals went out and got very very very solid when nobody was looking.”
Posted by: baseballinsidertrader | December 10, 2009 at 12:59 AM
Zimmerman really is turning into a stud, but everything else in that statement should earn that guy a slap in the face. The Nats are not the complete and utter joke they once were, but they’ve still got a long way to go. For one thing, Ian Desmond is an abysmal SS but they’re committed to him anyway, and they’ll lose Dunn after this year, Livan sucks, and they haven’t signed him or Marquis yet so any contributions they would make is wishful thinking for the moment. I swear, I love MLBTR, but the morons turn out in droves for the comments pages.
I think they meant the pitching Zimmerman....
and if he feels Dunn is their MVP candidate, not the 3B Zimmerman, he’s not worth listening to.
Mentioneing Dunn as an MVP candidate should earn you an automatic ball peen hammer to the crotch. You can NOT mention a rotation in the NLE without mentioning how much better ours is. And picking the perrineal loser of the division by saying they got good while no one was looking is absurd.
They are putting together a respectable club. Don’t get ahead of yourself though. My guess is that they have another 2 or 3 years at least before they crack the top 3.
Ball peen hammer to the crotch…very nice.
"SIGN PUJOLS OR FIRE WREN" ~ Swo12bv
by Smoltz's Beard on Dec 10, 2009 10:02 AM EST up reply actions
Awesome.
"...Braves tie! ...Braves tie! ...Braves tie!"
by The Keith Lockhart Era on Dec 10, 2009 1:56 PM EST up reply actions
Wow…
"SIGN PUJOLS OR FIRE WREN" ~ Swo12bv
by Smoltz's Beard on Dec 10, 2009 10:01 AM EST up reply actions
Fail
Isn’t Jordan Zimmerman out for 2010?
If Albert played in the AFL, they’d have to rename it the AZ/NM Fall League, based on where his homers landed.
He should be back in August or so...
…ala Hudson last year, if he progresses on Hudson’s schedule. The Nats, if not in contention, however, may give him extra time to heal and just tell him to try to be ready for 2011.
According to MLBTR Tampa is picking up ALL of Soriano’s salary whatever it may be.
by CaptainRockSxD on Dec 10, 2009 3:02 AM EST via mobile reply actions
coldriver10's deleted fanpost
Soriano traded to Rays
Tiny by coldriver10 on Dec 9, 2009 10:30 PM PST Comment 4 comments, 2 new
Soriano has been traded to the Rays for Jesse Chavez. He’s not terrible, and he’s younger, but I was personally hoping we could get more for him.
Rafael Soriano(notes) didn’t have to wait long for a trade from the Braves. Atlanta has agreed to send the reliever to the Rays, multiple outlets report.
FOXSports.com reports Atlanta will receive reliever Jesse Chavez(notes), who came to Tampa Bay from the Pirates in last month’s Akinori Iwamura(notes) trade.
Soriano surprisingly returned to the Braves on Monday by accepting their offer of arbitration. He could have waited until mid-June to be traded, but he gave his consent to be dealt earlier.
The Braves signed Billy Wagner(notes) and Takashi Saito(notes) to replace Soriano and free agent Mike Gonzalez(notes) in the bullpen.
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Fuck.
If Albert played in the AFL, they’d have to rename it the AZ/NM Fall League, based on where his homers landed.
by Yakker on Dec 9, 2009 10:46 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
this.
I can’t BELIEVE I stayed up all night for this.
Somebody call Wren and ask him how his ass is feeling, cuz he got bent over and raped.
by J-Freak on Dec 9, 2009 11:47 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
If we don’t have to eat any salary
Then this is, in my opinion, just as good as the picks.
For one thing, you have to pay draft picks. Hopefully, the money that isn’t spent on two extra picks will be repurposed for some over slot guys later in the draft and international FAs. Or, as is more likely since our budget is approved by a corporation, the money that would’ve been taken from later round over slots and the international market in order to pay the extra early draft picks will be returned there.
Also, with draft picks, best case scenario, you don’t get any major league production until several years down the line. With Chavez, we get two seasons of a decent relief pitcher right now for league minimum and three below market option years. If we believe the Braves can compete over these next couple years (which I assume we do), then that is more valuable than a lottery ticket with a 10% chance of paying out half a decade down the line.
by OldDutchPots on Dec 9, 2009 11:09 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
no guarantee Chavez even pitches for our MLB team because we lost 2 FA relievers in Soriano and Gonzo and then signed 2 in Wagner and Saito so no guarantee Chavez even pitches enough games, hell a 18 year old spec that the Rays have that was a extremely late pick with not much upside or whatever would have been better than this in my opinion wow.
braves#1
by rockybull on Dec 9, 2009 11:38 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I wrote a novel, it's about baseball, you should buy it: https://www.createspace.com/3407939
www.dropoutproductions.com
Sorry, trying to keep the discussion in one place. But thanks for posting it.
I wrote a novel, it's about baseball, you should buy it: https://www.createspace.com/3407939
www.dropoutproductions.com
No problem, I understand completely. Hope you’re doing well, cb.
by coldriver10 on Dec 10, 2009 12:49 PM EST up reply actions
Yeah, I’m great, thanks. A little cold, a little sick, but otherwise, not too bad. Thanks for asking, hope you’re doing well too.
I wrote a novel, it's about baseball, you should buy it: https://www.createspace.com/3407939
www.dropoutproductions.com
yep yep, busy but good. Hope you feel better!
by coldriver10 on Dec 10, 2009 10:24 PM EST up reply actions
how did that novel writing thing turn out?
Heyward,Hanson,and Shaffer r ready now!! Why do you think they havent signed the "right handed bat"?
by fatazfoot on Jan 7, 2009 8:59 PM EST
It was good. I had to write 50K and I wrote over 53K. Of course, the novel isn’t actually finished, cause I think it’s going to end up being closer to 80K or 100K, but hey, at least it’s rolling. Thanks for asking.
I wrote a novel, it's about baseball, you should buy it: https://www.createspace.com/3407939
www.dropoutproductions.com
Was it really necessary to do this so soon? Why not let free agency progress and see who has needs? If they had waited for the Valverde market to sort itself out, the teams looking for relief help who lost out might have felt acquiring Soriano was their best option. Instead, you have a handful of teams who are willing to take their chances on signing Rodney or Valverde at a similar cost through free agency and not give the Braves prospects. That being said, we got Jesse Chavez (if that’s the only player) for free. We offered arb, Soriano accepted and the organization knew this was a possibility.
Also, Brandon Lyon’s 15M over 3 years makes you wonder if accepting arbitration was the best move for Soriano. I have to think Soriano could have gotten that same contract from the Astros over Lyon. Raffy better hope the arm problems on his resume are a thing of the past or this one year deal he accepted will prove to be a very poor financial decision.
"Four of us wolves, running around the desert together in Las Vegas, looking for strippers and cocaine..."
Gotta have Faith.
That the genuineness of your faith, being much more precious than gold that perishes, though it is tested by fire, may be found to praise, honor, and glory at the revelation of Frank Wren. 1 Peter 1: 7(NKJV)
Wren Be Praised.
WWFWD?
by !Vive la Francoeur! on Dec 10, 2009 3:15 AM EST reply actions
I have faith in Wren, people lose it and gain it so much, but after last offseason working wonders with our rotation I trust Wren in everything he does
People even questioned him for the Vazquez last year.
Let the man work his magic
by JasonHeywardisGod on Dec 10, 2009 3:21 AM EST up reply actions
I’m not sure what anyone was expecting. Between the Braves already signing two closers, and Wren basically coming out and saying that Soriano wouldn’t be used in late inning situations if he took arbitration, why was any team going to give up anything of value and take on a big salary commitment for someone the Braves themselves made clear they didn’t view as a late inning pitcher.
I think Wren rushed it a little. Some teams would have ended up needing him, but there are a lot of closer options available. Like it or not, I think it was a salary dump so he is able to negotiate with Nady.
If Manny Acosta's twin
Was all the Braves were getting they could’ve just let Soriano walk from the get go and not have to worry if another team is going to pick up any of his salary. This deal stinks if it’s only for Chavez.
Personally I think Wren showed his hand too early by signing Wagner and Saito before the arbitration deadline. Teams knew that the Braves had to get rid of Soriano and were not going to give them any top players!
by Jay212033 on Dec 10, 2009 3:27 AM EST via mobile reply actions
Well from the get go
Wren couldn’t tell the future and see that Soriano was going to accept
If Wren would’ve denied offering Soriano arbitration you would most likely flip a bitch and say Wren is an idiot, the man can do no right for you guys, he can’t see the future like you wish he could.
by JasonHeywardisGod on Dec 10, 2009 3:32 AM EST up reply actions
Flip a bitch
What?!?! I know I was one of the people saying he should offer Soriano arbitration but I was also one who didn’t want Wagner! If Wren would’ve just waited until after Gonzo and Sori accepted or declined arby this process would’ve been much smoother but hey now we have an injury plagued backend and Acosta x2 in the BP so lets see what else Wren does.
by Jay212033 on Dec 10, 2009 3:41 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
Well not necessary you
but the majority of people hate on Frank Wren’s decisions with the current knowledge we do know even though at the time of the transaction, they agreed with it the comments would tend to agree with it also, I’m just saying the offseason has barely begun let Frank Wren handle his business!
by JasonHeywardisGod on Dec 10, 2009 3:54 AM EST up reply actions
I feel another
3rd place finish coming in 2010!
by Jay212033 on Dec 10, 2009 3:44 AM EST via mobile reply actions
It’s not like a couple of draft picks were going to help us in 2010 anyway, so we’re basically in the same situation with an extra middle reliever coming in to ST.
Well
Those couple of draft picks would have allowed the Braves more room to trade prospects for impact players.
by Jay212033 on Dec 10, 2009 3:58 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
look at the number of middle relief possibilities we already have...
Chavez is excess on top of an already loaded spot. We don’t need more middle relievers, and that is my biggest beef. I get Soriano had to go, but we’ve got so many other needs with relief pitching not being among them.
by Mr. Sanchez on Dec 10, 2009 10:57 AM EST up reply actions
oh please
"It breaks your heart. It is designed to break your heart. The game begins in the spring, when everything else begins again, and it blossoms in the summer, filling the afternoons and evenings, and then as soon as the chill rains come, it stops and leaves you to face the fall alone." A. Bartlett Giamatti
Drama queen…
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Dec 10, 2009 10:25 AM EST up reply actions
Damn…ST hasn’t even started yet and this guy is picking us to finish 3rd. He must be a ESPN employee lol.
by CaptainRockSxD on Dec 10, 2009 4:00 AM EST via mobile reply actions
No point in whining now that it’s done. Let’s just get that bat.
"Dum spiro spero"
by Bravely going forward on Dec 10, 2009 4:06 AM EST reply actions
Guys let just be honest Soriano was another maybe 7 mln commitment for the Braves. A commitment that was not planned by any means by the front office. The Braves would not have had any money left if they had to hold on to Soriano.
In order to bring in the the bat we still need there would be an enormous amount of pressure to trade one of the starters.
Other clubs all know about this and that makes the Braves have not got the leverage to trade like they would have when Soriano was on the block late in june for a contender.
The Soriano was a contract Wren had to get rid of and the Rays and other teams knew.
Now just lets see what Lowe will get traded for. It becomes more and more clear he is the one to go.
Hopefully the Braves can then get out and sign the bats we all are hoping for.
by Dutch Braves Fan on Dec 10, 2009 4:34 AM EST reply actions
Don't kill me please...
I really like Javy but I think we should trade him and not Lowe. From their track record I believe that Lowe will be better next year than Javy and most important we can get something much much better for Javy. If we can get the same player trading either or I would do Lowe but I don’t believe that is the case.
I won't kill you....
… for the debate it a fair one: can you trade for a bat or buy one? In the case of Javy, it is clearly a “sell high” situation for the Braves. Could we get the bat we need from such a trade? Hard to say, though he would instantly be the 2nd best pitcher available (after Lackey)… and a LOT cheaper.
With Lowe, it’s 2 transactions: sell him (for not much in return) and then you still gotta buy a bat. If these reports of Atlanta being willing to take on some of his salary are correct, then that means less bat-buying power. So yeah, in the world of giving up quality to get quality, using the best chip makes some sense if you can get a guy that’s productive every day of the season…. with Medlen or KK as the 5th starter instead.
I think we should pursue both options...
…and probably are. We look to move Lowe to dump salary—-getting little to nothing if the team takes the full contract and insisting on more the more that we are eating salary. With Vazquez we see if we can get a hitter we need in return. Whichever option turns out best is the one we should do.
No thought into it!
Trade Lowe to the Yankkes for a player to be named later. Dump the salary
and combine Soriano and Lowe salary and go after Bay or Holliday.
We don’t need much in return for propects, we can get that through trading KJ or someone else.
by AlRoBraves95 on Dec 10, 2009 12:56 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Could people please stop discussing Bay and Holliday in the same breath? They are not even close in value. Bay will age poorly and is likely to be an anchor on someone’s defense (and payroll) in about 3 years. Holliday is going to be a super hella stud wherever he plays, although he’ll likely be overpaid.
If Albert played in the AFL, they’d have to rename it the AZ/NM Fall League, based on where his homers landed.
Chill!
Wren did what he had to do. He had absolutely NO leverage to try and get a better deal. No team was going to offer more than we got and Chavez is another good candidate to fill a middle relief role for us this year. Those draft picks would have been nice but there’s no guarantee the players would have panned out and if they did it would be 6 years from now. We basically came out in a wash with draft picks……well not totally, we’ll get a sandwich pick for Gonzalez and maybe a team with a lower draft pick than us in the first round next year will sign him. I would guess that Chavez ends up making the team out of spring training and is a valuable member of our pen next year and in the future.
Absolutely no leverage is absolutely correct. To include the rather imposing fact that Soriano had veto power over any trade.
The point all along was to clear Soriano’s salary. If Wren had not offered arbitration, we would have gotten nothing. Instead, we cleared the salary and got something.
My view is that Wren is almost certainly working on multiple possible deals and did this deal now in order to move on to what is about to happen next. In other words, it is an element of his larger plan. For example, Chavez could be a piece that is to be re-packaged and shipped with Lowe and/or someone else in a blockbuster trade to be annouced this afternoon.
Anyone think we're preparing for a run at Holliday?
Clearing Soriano. If we can get ANYONE to give us anything for Lowe (and we pick up 3-5 million of this year’s salary), that would give us 18 million to spend.
Anyone think he signs for 3 year/54 million? Would you want to do that?
by apoxonbothyourhouses on Dec 10, 2009 5:57 AM EST reply actions
I would so be down
and then trade for a cheap 1b like Jorge Cantu who also has pop that we can bat 7th or 8th :)
by JasonHeywardisGod on Dec 10, 2009 6:13 AM EST up reply actions
Well actually looking at Cantu stats
I’m not that impressed :( but he is a year removed from 29 hrs so idk with him.
by JasonHeywardisGod on Dec 10, 2009 6:18 AM EST up reply actions
If Holliday would take 3 yrs./54 million...
…he would have been signed by the Cardinals before other teams even had a shot. Bay, the lesser of the two, has refused 4 years/60 million. Holliday wants $100 million+ and will probably get it.
No problem
This was an obvious salary dump. Don’t be surprised if we don’t get much for Lowe in return either. Wren’s just stockpiling cash until he can make his giant free agent splash.
Bingo!
That’s exactly what is happening, although I don’t know the free agent splash will be that big—it will just be a 1B (and there aren’t huge options there) and an OF. I imagine it will be one of LaRoche/Delgado/Glaus/Dye and one of Byrd/Cameron/Nady. I am rooting for LaRoche/Delgado and Cameron, but we will see.
There might be better talent available in a trade but the Braves still need to unload those contracts to actually be able to pay the guy they might bring in by trade.
by Dutch Braves Fan on Dec 10, 2009 9:33 AM EST up reply actions
If this is how it goes
then this deal is for what we need most. CASH!! That way we can sign a big bat like we really need. So just back off the haterade ppl, Wren knows what he’s doing, the off season is still early. And the details haven’t been disclosed yet so that other dude may be a rumor, but either way, we need those dolla dolla bills yo.
I'm going to say whatever is thinking
Is this some sort of fucking joke?
Firefrankwren.com: It's gonna happen this offseason
I don't get the big deal
because, in all actuality, the Braves were slightly better off offering Soriano arbitration than not. No money is lost by the Braves and they picked up what looks to be ST filler. The gamble didn’t pay off w/ a new first rounder, but it didn’t blow up in the Braves faces. All in all, it was worth the risk and the Braves are no worse off had they not offered arbitration. Maybe I’m too optimistic
Absolutely agree
I don’t understand the angst. The Braves had two options, offer arb or don’t offer arb. They gambled and offered arb, hoping for the draft picks but ended up with, as you say, ST filler at worse or a serviceable RP at best. The other option would have yielded nothing. No big deal. Now let’s find D.Lowe a new home!
by Gib in Seoul on Dec 10, 2009 8:22 AM EST up reply actions
No, you’re missing a 3rd option. Offer arb and then wait to see if they accept. It seems like the most prudent thing to do, and it’s what most GMs did. Wren mysteriously chose to jump the gun on Wagner and Saito, and it’s not clear why. I guarantee you that knowing what we now know about the RP market, people were not banging down the door to give Wagner $7M with a vesting option for a 2nd year.
If Albert played in the AFL, they’d have to rename it the AZ/NM Fall League, based on where his homers landed.
True...
…he could have been prudent like Ed Wade, who waited for Valverde to decline arbitration before signing Brandon Lyon to a 3 yr./$15 million deal to close. I’ll take Wren’s impatience over that kind of patience any day. (And yes, this is facetious, I think we all agree that Wade is a bigger idiot than most any GM regardless of whether we think Wren screwed the pooch on this or not.)
not a bad deal...
http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/l/lyonbr01.shtml?redir
but i wouldn’t be too comfortable relying on that as my closer.
Actually, given Brandon Lyon $15M to pitch at (if you’re lucky) replacement level is pretty much the dumbest thing I can think of.
If Albert played in the AFL, they’d have to rename it the AZ/NM Fall League, based on where his homers landed.
Yup.
"SIGN PUJOLS OR FIRE WREN" ~ Swo12bv
by Smoltz's Beard on Dec 10, 2009 5:05 PM EST up reply actions
At least he isn't likely to close with...
Lindstrom (although I wouldn’t be comfortable counting on him either). But considering he’s for 2 more years, at the most Saito could possibly cost, I’ll take the Saito deal over Lyon’s all day.
Good point. Wren could also have been prudent and done some of the things we’ve been talking about on here ad nauseum, like gone after Wuertz or Masset or simply signed Calero and Benoit. Hell, he could have done like smart FOs do and picked up Boof Bonser for the 7th instead of Saito and saved himself at least $3M.
I disliked the Wagner deal at the time, but was willing to live with it. I strongly disliked the Saito deal and wondered what the rush was to sign an aged RP with serious injury issues before the market was set. After the latest debacle with Soriano, I’m thoroughly disgusted with Wren right now.
I am reserving judgment, but the offseason to date is not off to a banner start.
If Albert played in the AFL, they’d have to rename it the AZ/NM Fall League, based on where his homers landed.
I wasn't thrilled with...
…the Wagner or Saito signings; while I think they are reasonable pitchers for the roles they will fill, I agree that we could have found cheaper options without the proven closer tag. I don’t know about Boof, however, especially his health. However, I don’t see the Soriano situation as a debacle—-I am still not thrilled with the Wagner signing, but taking that as a given, what happened with Soriano did not adversely affect us—-we are one mediocre relief pitcher better than we would be if we didn’t offer him arbitration.
Here's how I see it
Option 1:
Do everything exactly as Wren did it. Net result:
- Wagner signed at $7M, with vesting option
- First round draft pick lost to Boston
- Saito signed at $3.5M – $5.5M
- Add Jesse Chavez
- Get pick(s) when Gonzalez signs elsewhere.
Option 2:
Be patient. Net result:
- Soriano at $7M, one-year “non-guaranteed”
- Sign Saito at $3M-$5.5M (or some other schmuck RP at $3M)
- Get pick(s) when Gonzalez signs elsewhere.
One of those options is clearly better than the other.
If Albert played in the AFL, they’d have to rename it the AZ/NM Fall League, based on where his homers landed.
Everyone yelled at me for questioning Wren's intelligence....
Who’s laughing now….this guy might not be the smartest or most experienced GM….
Like we need anyone else in our bullpen, as is. Salary moved. Soriano moved to AL. Now Wren can focus on Lowe.
Somebody around here is more anal than the mom on 7th heaven. Freakin' A. lol
(self-appointed President of Yunel's Cartel~~~)
by Chief Noc-A-Homa on Dec 10, 2009 8:51 AM EST up reply actions
I am pretty sure that we are still the ones laughing…
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Dec 10, 2009 9:42 AM EST up reply actions
hahahaha.
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Dec 10, 2009 10:07 AM EST up reply actions
Go away.
"SIGN PUJOLS OR FIRE WREN" ~ Swo12bv
by Smoltz's Beard on Dec 10, 2009 10:50 AM EST up reply actions
Wren, not intelligent? Get your head in the game
What did the Braves give up for Jurrens? Edgar Renteria? Great trade. Agree?
Who did the Braves give up for a Cy Young candidate(Javy Vasquez)
Flowers? Give me a break. We have McCann. Don’t want to bored you but Wren has been great and gusty where
John S. was always conservative and never brought any big names to Atlanta like Wren has done in the past.
I believe Wren also was able to get a Boras client from free agency(lowe) something JS never did.
This offseason is getting started and our priority is big bat, not some 1st round draft pick. This is the Braves not the A’s
by AlRoBraves95 on Dec 10, 2009 1:03 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Ahhh...I remember the days...
…when the A’s were the big badasses and the poor little Braves were so bad that super-stud pitcher Todd Van Poppel swore he wouldn’t sign if we drafted him, so we were forced to waste our #1 overall pick on some high school kid named Larry.
Grrr!!! Me Troll! Me Hungry!
Some Fun Facts about Blog-Trolls, according to Wikipedia:
They subsist mainly on the negative attention of other bloggers.
The largest known B-T was named MetsFan4Eternity and was over 700 pounds before it choked on a particularly juicy insult nugget from a Braves blogger going by the name of bigjoe (something about a tetnis-covered wood-screw through the MetsFan4Eternity’s genitalia).
"…aren’t worthy enough to hold his (Pujols) ass cheeks apart while Playboy models wipe him with thousand dollar bills after he craps out the cure to whatever previously-incurable disease." by royhobbs 1/7/09
It’s already been mentioned that we got about 7.5 million in slashed salary out of this to move forward signing a bat. I guess most people don’t consider salary when they look at trades or something….but I’ll give you another reason why this is good.
TIME.
I’m glad Wren didn’t putz around trying to wrench maximum value out of Soriano. The whole accepting arbitration thing threw a wrench in everything because we’re supposed to be looking for a bat, not shopping around a closer. I was relieved to see that Wren traded Soriano for someone, anyone, as quickly as possible so we can move on.
49th State Hardball
Fan Blog of the Alaska Baseball League
Yep.
Salary moved. Fine. Move Lowe and this offseason will be a success.
Somebody around here is more anal than the mom on 7th heaven. Freakin' A. lol
(self-appointed President of Yunel's Cartel~~~)
by Chief Noc-A-Homa on Dec 10, 2009 8:47 AM EST up reply actions
Or Vasquez
IF we can get a great 1B out of it. Fielder, Miguel Cabrera or the like.
it will be a success
if we can move Lowe AND acquire an impact, RH bat. Preferably a LF so we can resign LaRoche (who seems to LOVE playing in Atlanta) for 2 years. Then we shut the fuck up and go out and win the NL East.
I’m thinking Wren is seriously contemplating a Holliday signing.
by apoxonbothyourhouses on Dec 10, 2009 11:00 AM EST up reply actions
Unless Holliday is willing to take far less than expected...
…I just don’t see it. For good reason, the Braves usually don’t dole out $100 million contracts. And I think Holliday wants that and may well get it from the Sox.
Eh, better than nothing.
Chavez could be useful in the bullpen, as he does have good stuff. More importantly, the Rays are paying Soriano’s whole salary. This isn’t necessarily a good move, but it had to be done.
Agree.
Braves got pinned to the wall with Soriano. They had little leverage as teams knew they had to make a trade. I’m not completely sure who everyone thought we would get in return. Right now, I’d rather have cash in my pocket than another player in the minors.
And, for what it’s worth, I don’t think Chavez is the bottom of the barrell either. The time I watched him pitch against Atlanta, we couldn’t get a bat on him. I’m not completely unhappy with a bullpen that contains Medlen, Moylan, Acotsa, Chavez, Saito, and Wagner. I think that pen provides Cox a lot of options. At the very least you can say it’s got an international flavor.
We were supposed to get Adrian Gonzalez straight up for Soriano. You didn’t know?
"Matt Diaz is a baseball player."-Joe Simpson
Fail
Got my Latin firstbasemen mixed up. We were supposed to get Carlos Pena straight up for Soriano.
"Matt Diaz is a baseball player."-Joe Simpson
Or a three team trade where we got both!
AND the other teams pick up Gonzalez and Peña :)
Whatever
We couldn’t afford to pay him… the draft pick wouldnt impact us in the next 3-4 years… whatever the F ever man.
1) Frank Wren has earned our trust
2) As soon as he makes the big bat move or signing that we are all hoping/praying for, we will all be lionizing him again.
Patience grasshoppers
by Sid Bream's Moustache on Dec 10, 2009 9:04 AM EST reply actions
this actually isn’t so bad, the braves had almost no leverage in this situation, and after looking at chavez a little, it’s not so bad, he has some good stuff and could very easily be in our pen opening day…
What does everyone think our pen will look like opening day based on the moves frank has made?
I’m thinkin’…
Wagner
Saito
Moylan
EOF
Medlen
Chavez
Proctor
What do yall think?
"Im a fullonrapist, I do men, women, autistic kids, children, the elderly." -Charlie Kelly
I don’t think Proctor will be ready to start the year in the Majors. He’ll need a little rehab time in AAA.
I wrote a novel, it's about baseball, you should buy it: https://www.createspace.com/3407939
www.dropoutproductions.com
What’s his story? I mean, wasn’t he a pretty decent MLB player a few years back?
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Dec 10, 2009 10:16 AM EST up reply actions
Yeah, he blew his arm out and then re-injured it this year. He didn’t pitch at all at the end of the year so I’m thinking he’s gonna need a little more time at the start of 2010 to get himself in game shape. My guess is by the end of the year he’s a solid part of the bullpen, but it’s going to take a little bit at the start for him to show up.
I wrote a novel, it's about baseball, you should buy it: https://www.createspace.com/3407939
www.dropoutproductions.com
Gracias…I could have googled that, I guess, but why waste 20 seconds googling when we have our own Baseball Google named CBWilk?
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Dec 10, 2009 10:20 AM EST up reply actions
Come on
Why are people so upset? This is one piece of what I think is a master plan. FW knows what he is doing. Instead of having a $7M 6th or 7th inning pitcher, he got rid of the salary and a potential useful RP in return. That’s all he needed to do. The Braves are $7M better off now than they were before the deal and if nothing else is up FW’s sleeve then we can all be upset about it. But until then give FW a little time, you were all streaking the quad last week over his two signings. Let him do his work. Hell, I wouldn’t be surprised if he moves Chavez in a trade. Braves in ’10!
by CharlotteChop18 on Dec 10, 2009 9:14 AM EST reply actions
The trade is what it is.
A salary dump. Soriano accepted arbitration and that put us in a bind. (Not that I have anything against Soriano for that—we offered it.) What we had to do is move his salary. We successfully moved his salary—-by all the reports I have heard, the Rays are paying his full salary and we aren’t eating any money. Chavez is gravy. He’s a cheap, live arm who could help or could suck. Either way, he is fairly irrelevant. The idea was to move Soriano’s salary and we successfully did that. I would love to trade Lowe for Chavez II (and there are plenty of relievers like Chavez floating around) if we didn’t eat any salary, too. Unfortunately, as he is owed $45 million, not sure that will happen.
To those who say Wren should have waited and let the market for Soriano develop, remember, time is of the essence here. We probably could have gotten a marginally better player for Soriano by waiting. That would not have helped. Wren has already more or less said (I think he straight up said it, but I don’t remember) that the trade market for the bat(s) we need just isn’t there and that we’ll have to move Soriano and Lowe (I don’t think he named Lowe, but it is pretty obvious) and then sign the hitters we need from the free agent market. If we don’t move Soriano and Lowe until February or something, the hitters we need might already be signed elsewhere, leaving us with the cash and only bad options to spend it on.
EXACTLY!!!
We wanted to get rid of Soriano to have money for a bat. We end up with a guy that might/might not help in the pen.
Wren just wanted him out. Now let’s focus on Lowe. Then we can get to brass tacks for a couple of good hitters.
If it was a straight salary dump...
is Chavez really the best offer we had? For real real? That’s the most anyone was willing to offer out of 29 other teams? Screw Soriano, and I hope he suffers an injury like the one to Tony Saunders.
Wow, that's vicious.
Yes, I am guessing that is the best offer we got. We obviously shopped him to a ton of teams. I would assume that Wren didn’t refuse a better offer—-everyone knows this is a salary dump; hell Chavez has been that once already before this trade. Everyone knew we had to move Soriano and we found someone willing to pay his full salary.
As for being vicious—-for what reason do you hope he suffers an injury? We offered him arbitration, he accepted. If we didn’t want him to accept, we could have just not offered it. Our offer hurt the salary he could have received on the open market. In the end, we get Chavez instead of two draft picks and Soriano gets a higher salary but only a one-year deal. It is the way the system works. I am not sure why you think Soriano had some obligation to screw himself for the benefit of an organization that had just offered him arbitration that screwed him. Why do you wish injury on him for that?
because I am an evil, cold hearted, vindictive person.
by Mr. Sanchez on Dec 10, 2009 10:59 AM EST up reply actions
your first name
isn’t Dirty, is it?
by apoxonbothyourhouses on Dec 10, 2009 11:07 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Tiberius, are you kidding me? No, that’s the worst.
"SIGN PUJOLS OR FIRE WREN" ~ Swo12bv
by Smoltz's Beard on Dec 10, 2009 11:21 AM EST up reply actions
It's a created alias...
and I found out what Captain Kirk’s name is after the fact, so that had nothing to do with it, and honestly made me wish I had created something else.
by Mr. Sanchez on Dec 10, 2009 11:26 AM EST up reply actions
It’s a line from the new movie.
"SIGN PUJOLS OR FIRE WREN" ~ Swo12bv
by Smoltz's Beard on Dec 10, 2009 11:31 AM EST up reply actions
Ahhh...
missed that. (Not the movie, but the line. Thought it was a pretty solid movie)
by Mr. Sanchez on Dec 10, 2009 11:46 AM EST up reply actions
Yeah, I thought the movie was excellent. Never could get into the show.
Just watched Funny People last night and thought it was really, really good. Too long, but very funny. Anyone else seen it?
"SIGN PUJOLS OR FIRE WREN" ~ Swo12bv
by Smoltz's Beard on Dec 10, 2009 11:53 AM EST up reply actions
The best review I heard for Funny People was from a friend who said, “The first 2 hours were really good, but the last 2 hours just dragged on.”
Funny, in the beginning, but probably one of Apatow’s worst.
I wrote a novel, it's about baseball, you should buy it: https://www.createspace.com/3407939
www.dropoutproductions.com
Yeah, definitely too long and the humor was somewhat nonexistent towards the end. But the scene with all the stand up comics in the bar was killing me. Especially the MM appearance.
"SIGN PUJOLS OR FIRE WREN" ~ Swo12bv
by Smoltz's Beard on Dec 10, 2009 12:01 PM EST up reply actions
Yeah...
saw it the other week. Not bad, but like a lot of Adam Sandler movies lately to me. GREAT first hour, BAD second hour, like Anger Management. Reign Over Me was a good one though, and probably his best role since Theo’s friend.
by Mr. Sanchez on Dec 10, 2009 11:56 AM EST up reply actions
Reign Over Me was good.
"SIGN PUJOLS OR FIRE WREN" ~ Swo12bv
by Smoltz's Beard on Dec 10, 2009 12:01 PM EST up reply actions
Nah. Sandler’s best performance was in ‘Punch-Drunk Love’
w/out question
Somebody around here is more anal than the mom on 7th heaven. Freakin' A. lol
(self-appointed President of Yunel's Cartel~~~)
by Chief Noc-A-Homa on Dec 10, 2009 4:45 PM EST up reply actions
i liked it…it wasnt the best of the Apatow/Rogan series but it was still very entertaining.
It was a little darker and it was interesting how Apatow was able to do pretty well with some pretty serious material and still nail the humor.
Unfortunately i saw it a while ago and cant spout of any of the lines.
Heyward,Hanson,and Shaffer r ready now!! Why do you think they havent signed the "right handed bat"?
by fatazfoot on Jan 7, 2009 8:59 PM EST
It was a little darker and it was interesting how Apatow was able to do pretty well with some pretty serious material and still nail the humor.
Exactly why I liked it so much.
"SIGN PUJOLS OR FIRE WREN" ~ Swo12bv
by Smoltz's Beard on Dec 10, 2009 12:01 PM EST up reply actions
Really good flick
And the best part was the shirt selection of Jonah Hill in the flick, I managed to track one of them down for myself.
No wonder nobody likes you, Tuttle... everything's a (Pujols) damn debate.
The shirts had me cracking up the whole time. Almost as much as the small segments of the terrible movies Sandler was in and the show “Yo, Teach”.
"SIGN PUJOLS OR FIRE WREN" ~ Swo12bv
by Smoltz's Beard on Dec 10, 2009 1:01 PM EST up reply actions
And all those who got pissed at Soriano...
but were told “He’s doing what is in his best interest” can now resume the hate. Jesse Freakin Chavez! That’s the best we could get? No wonder they felt no one would give their 1st round pick for him, what the f*** Frank? You couldn’t get better than Jesse Chavez from them? Not Brignac or Perez or some minor league IF? We get another junk middle reliever to go with Marek and Abreu and Proctor and all the others we’ve piled up lately? From a first/second and a sandwich pick to Jesse Freakin Chavez? Was no one else wanting him besides the damn Rays?
Well, we got Chavez AND $8M….
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Dec 10, 2009 9:44 AM EST up reply actions
How did we get $8m?...
no matter who took Soriano, his salary came off the books. It’s not like they took him AND sent us cash. We got salary relief, and I’d like to think we could have gotten better, maybe a package of fringe prospects considering our lack of even average minor league IFs and OFs. But no, we did not get $8m, we just got Soriano’s deal off the books. And in return, added someone who is no better than a dozen fringe guys we already have, like Abreu, Proctor, Redmond, Marek, Hyde, Gunderson, Gustafson, Parr, Diamond, Valdez, etc.
No…I am fairly certain other teams were asking us to eat some of his salary. This way, we got rid of all of the salary.
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Dec 10, 2009 10:08 AM EST up reply actions
Eh, what do I know...
as quality RBs like Marshall Faulk can be moved for second round picks in the NFL, I clearly can’t value players. I have a hard time seeing how teams demanded we eat salary for a pretty good reliever when healthy, but then that’s probably why I’m not employed by a MLB front office.
by Mr. Sanchez on Dec 10, 2009 11:01 AM EST up reply actions
As opposed to nothing if we had just let him walk.
But let me go ahead and say it before someone else does: “RAWR JESSE CHAVEZ IS NOTHING RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE RAWR”
"Matt Diaz is a baseball player."-Joe Simpson
No one said Jesse Chavez is nothing...
but we already have maybe two dozen guys similar floating around the major and minors for us, so what real use does he have? If that’s the best we could possibly have gotten, so be it. But I have a hard time thinking we couldn’t get at least a piece like Perez or Brignac, who aren’t already littered throughout the system. if not from the Rays, at least someone would want a potentially dominating closer on a one year deal (limiting the liability if his arm falls off, which I now hope it does).
by Mr. Sanchez on Dec 10, 2009 10:01 AM EST up reply actions
You have a hard time believing...
…that we couldn’t have gotten something better. Yet you know Wren was actively shopping him to pretty much everybody. So, either you are wrong or Wren turned down a better offer—-and obviously better offer because everyone knows that Chavez is simply salary relief. The updates from yesterday (when the Rays were interested but balked at the price) indicate that Wren asked for more and took what he could.
For what its worth, I’ll say Chavez is nothing. He is AAA/MLB roster filler. He is salary relief.
My opinion is...
not so much the “better” although I clearly believe Soriano was worth more, because as you say I trust Wren didn’t take this over a better offer just because he wanted another middle reliever.
But my thinking is more, if we are getting roster filler, why not get it at a spot we actually need more filler at, with AAA/AAAA style position players instead of middle relief. We’ve got Matt Young and Diory Hernandez currently as filler for OF and IF, but a good 20 to 40 cents worth of dime a dozen relievers. With that in mind, why not ask for a piece just as likely to be fringe roster filler like maybe not Brignac, but Perez, Tyler Bortnick, or Kyeong Kang, among others.
by Mr. Sanchez on Dec 10, 2009 11:08 AM EST up reply actions
That's a reasonable thought...
…my guess is that Wren decided the benefit of moving Soriano now (allowing for salary to be cleared earlier when more bats are still on the market) outweighed the benefit of getting a more positionally desirable roster-filler in return. Whether that was correct or not, however, is certainly debatable.
See, I don’t really get how we got 8 million. The Braves went ahead and signed Wagner and Saito, meaning to them, Soriano was gone. So it’s not like there was 8 million in the budget that was allocated to him. What we actually did was prevent ourselves from going 8 million over budget. I don’t think this 8 million is going to show up later like Derek Lowe’s 15 million will if he’s traded. The reason Soriano had to go was that the 8 million he’d be paid just didn’t exist.
I wrote a novel, it's about baseball, you should buy it: https://www.createspace.com/3407939
www.dropoutproductions.com
Well, we WOULD have to pay him if Wren wasn’t able to trade him. I really doubt that we would cut Soriano. We probably would have had to settle for lesser bats and have a really dominant BP.
I get that this move isn’t ideal, but it isn’t the end of the world either. Right now, we have 1 extra player who may be good or may not, but he is still more that what we had at this point last week, and he has proven that he can pitch at the MLB level – something a draft pick or prospect rarely ends up doing.
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Dec 10, 2009 10:19 AM EST up reply actions
...Agree... AND....
… though draft picks would have been helpful down the road, at least there’s some bonus money that will not be required in June.
Right. And this guy could be useful this season – which is what we are looking for. Down the road is pretty much set. It is 2010 where we need help.
Besides, if this guy can take Acosta’s spot in the BP, this move is equivalent to trading FYF and getting a breathing body in return!
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Dec 10, 2009 10:21 AM EST up reply actions
Our system is relatively thin...
…on hitting prospects, so I am not certain we are “set” down the road. However, the draft picks for Soriano were never available—-we could only get them if we offered Soriano arbitration and he declined. We did everything we could to get them and didn’t, so they were never really available. We will get a couple of picks for Gonzo however, so its not a totally dead draft. We can debate whether signing Wagner was a good idea since we gave up our first rounder, but there was nothing we could do about the Soriano picks.
Except we didn't trade Acosta
He’s still out there, lurking. We’re one arm tweak from putting back into the bullpen.
Plus, seriously, this can’t be compared to trading Francouer, a negative win player, and actually getting value, because in reality, we traded a 2 WAR relief pitcher and got back…a negative win RP.
Acosta is also out of options, so, scarily enough, he’s probably going to be given every chance to make the team.
I wrote a novel, it's about baseball, you should buy it: https://www.createspace.com/3407939
www.dropoutproductions.com
This isn't a bad thing
This is like parents who allow their kids to do something stupid, hurt themselves, so that they learn on their own that it shouldn’t be done. If this is what it takes to make the Braves finally cut their losses on Acosta and get rid of him, then there could be worse things.
No wonder nobody likes you, Tuttle... everything's a (Pujols) damn debate.
That’s possible, but it’s more likely that it’s like what happened with Boyer this year. He makes the team out of ST, not because he’s the best option, but because he’s out of options, and he proceeds to pitch like crap and blow some games before they finally get rid of him. I’m usually not one to get too bent out of shape about losses in April, because a million things can really account for them, but the idea of him blowing some games early on just so they can justify the tiny amount of money they spent signing him as a minor league free agent a long time ago is upsetting.
I wrote a novel, it's about baseball, you should buy it: https://www.createspace.com/3407939
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So, since he is out of options, can we say that his only option is to pitch well now?
Bad pun? Sorry.
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Dec 10, 2009 3:47 PM EST up reply actions
I wasn’t exactly being literal…you and I are getting crossed up quite a bit here lately…damn that lack of a “J/K” font!
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Dec 10, 2009 3:46 PM EST up reply actions
Right, I’m not really questioning any of that, I’m just saying this isn’t like 8 million saved, it’s 8 million we didn’t have that we couldn’t possibly spend that we now don’t have to. Anyone thinking this in any way affects the other things we do this offseason, like have more money for another player, just isn’t gauging the situation correctly.
I wrote a novel, it's about baseball, you should buy it: https://www.createspace.com/3407939
www.dropoutproductions.com
Do you think that if we had to keep Sori, that we would still be able to afford the “Bat” that we supposedly are after?
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Dec 10, 2009 10:37 AM EST up reply actions
Don't think Soriano impacted the bat...
as much as potentially moving Lowe or Vasquez. Soriano was too expensive for a 7th/8th inning man, and needed to be moved, but my opinion is probably more clearly explained above now.
by Mr. Sanchez on Dec 10, 2009 11:11 AM EST up reply actions
why the hell would we want perez?
"Im a fullonrapist, I do men, women, autistic kids, children, the elderly." -Charlie Kelly
You mean a fast OF with leadoff potential...
who at worst gets a half year tryout if he proves to be Carlos Gomez or Gregor Blanco before giving way to Heyward or Schafer. At best, we’ve got maybe a late blooming speedster ala Otis Nixon.
Yeah, considering the current state of the club who’s already spent $0.20 on two stacks of dime a dozen relievers but has their best minor league CF named Matt Young, “why the hell would we want perez?”
we have minor league CF that is fast, great defense, and leadoff potential in jordan schafer thats about 3 years younger.
"Im a fullonrapist, I do men, women, autistic kids, children, the elderly." -Charlie Kelly
But he didn’t go to Columbia University and he can’t grow an awesome 70s mustache like Perez.
I wrote a novel, it's about baseball, you should buy it: https://www.createspace.com/3407939
www.dropoutproductions.com
Schafer, by all reports...
could use some time in AAA after missing large chunks of the past two years. Perez, on the other hand, hasn’t missed that time and appears ready to show his stuff at this level, and could be the stop gap as I describe above until Schafer or Heyward get the seasoning they still apparently need, or best case scenario proves a solid player that can play LF beside them going forward.
by Mr. Sanchez on Dec 10, 2009 11:16 AM EST up reply actions
But on second thought, what is wrong with me...
we have one minor league CF with lots of potential in spite of several recent set backs. Why on earth would we possibly want another decent OF? I mean, we do have Matt Young waiting in the wings too (no disrespect intended to Young).
by Mr. Sanchez on Dec 10, 2009 11:17 AM EST up reply actions
are you kidding? how does he “appear ready to show his stuff at this level” any more than schafer?
.234 AVG .301 OBP .351 SLG .652 OPS, he was 0 for 2 in SB’s this year…not much of a lead off hitter
a stop gap is usually someone who has proven they can do the job, not someone who may have even less talent and potential than schafer..
"Im a fullonrapist, I do men, women, autistic kids, children, the elderly." -Charlie Kelly
i mean i’d take him as a 4th OF, and im not saying he couldn’t come around…but chavez could contribute more this year…
we already have a diaz, mclouth, schafer, heyward, and whoever we decide to bring in this offseason..i just think chavez wil contribute more this year..
"Im a fullonrapist, I do men, women, autistic kids, children, the elderly." -Charlie Kelly
Calm down Joe Dirt
http://www.baseball-reference.com/minors/player.cgi?id=perez-002fer
His minor league numbers are actually solid. And perhaps you fail to grasp the meaning of the term “stop gap” or allusions to Carlos Gomez and Gregor Blanco.
by Mr. Sanchez on Dec 10, 2009 11:51 AM EST up reply actions
yeah, i’ve seen his fucking minor league numbers, but were not competing for a AAA championship this year, chavez will actually help the ATLANTA braves this year.
"Im a fullonrapist, I do men, women, autistic kids, children, the elderly." -Charlie Kelly
Worse numbers saw Gregor Blanco get a full year in CF...
I’d have no problem with Perez starting the year in left.
by Mr. Sanchez on Dec 10, 2009 11:58 AM EST up reply actions
ok, so your supporting it because of gregor blanco? if anything i figured you would have seen how that turned out and steered clear of that idea…
perez over diaz? yeah lets put a career .230 hitter in left over a career .310 hitter, diaz’s OBP is almost 60 points higher…but no, we’ll cross our fingers and put a kid who hasn’t proved shit in left field…great logic my friend!
"Im a fullonrapist, I do men, women, autistic kids, children, the elderly." -Charlie Kelly
Huh?..
“perez over diaz?” Where did you get that from? Diaz is starting in RF right now Joe.
by Mr. Sanchez on Dec 10, 2009 12:10 PM EST up reply actions
Why is everyone upset.....
We had no leverage in this situation. The althernative option was us NOT offering Soriano arbitration and having another team sign him – netting us nothing in return. Instead, we did get something back. He had ABSOLUTELY NO TRADE VALUE. The fact that he accepted our arbitration offer after his agent begged every other team to offer his a long term deal speaks for itself.
How is this Wren's fault
He had two choices:
1. Not offer arb: we get nothing
2. Offer arb and have Soriano accept (which Wren had NO control over): we get at least something
So all of the chicken littles on this board wanted us to not offer arb and get nothing? Or were you hoping that Wren could get more in a situation where he had no leverage.
And seriously guys, Chavez will be used in low leverage situations to get better and he has ‘stuff’ to develop into a fine middle reliever (which he actually kind of is). As it stands now he is our sixth best reliever (ie sixth to be called on) behind Wagner, Saito, Moylan, O’Flaherty, and Medlen. Its not such a bad thing to have guys like Chavez and Proctor eating up middle innings in games that aren’t close so you can rest your studs.
Shhhhh….those with tin hats can only take so much!
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Dec 10, 2009 10:10 AM EST up reply actions
The irrational side of me is angry because we’re losing out on two draft picks because Soriano and his agent played the game and the team got left footing the bill and getting nothing…and it also wants me to wish that we’dve kept him to let him languish without closing and letting him help the team rather than screwing it over.
But then I take a step back and figure we lost the situation when he accepted arb anyways, so there’s no use crying over it. However, I don’t buy the fact that Wren had no leverage because multiple teams wished to sign him; play them off against each other, threaten to actually keep him, etc. If the reports are accurate, I think you could get more than Jesse fuckin’ Chavez.
I also don’t approve of how Wren has handled the draft so far in his tenure, from the signing of Glavine and losing that pick to the quick signing of Wagner without seeing the situation pan out. He seems much too callous in tossing the higher picks away.
he had zero leverage, the braves have made it clear all offseason that they need a bat, and to do that we couldn’t keep soriano, so wren could do all the bluffing he wanted and it still wouldn’t help the situation. if anything, the fact that he got this deal done so soon makes me believe he is close to moving lowe…i see it happening very soon..
"Im a fullonrapist, I do men, women, autistic kids, children, the elderly." -Charlie Kelly
Ehhh, perhaps I being a bit too demanding, but I saw the same thing happen with the Tex trade: from my perspective, it seemed that Wren was too focused on getting exactly what he wanted (in that case, a 1B; this case, salary relief) that he tunnel visioned without exploring a bit more.
I like Wren as a GM and think he has done a good job, but he isn’t without faults. I still think he could’ve gotten more utility than Jesse Chavez. The only hang up I see would be taking on salary; I suppose if his goal was to trade Soriano AND not get any appreciable salary back AND get someone who will help us this year, then his hands are pretty much tied.
by soup du jour on Dec 10, 2009 11:32 AM EST up reply actions
I agree with you about the drafting aspect.
"SIGN PUJOLS OR FIRE WREN" ~ Swo12bv
by Smoltz's Beard on Dec 10, 2009 11:15 AM EST up reply actions
I agree on the draft to an extent...
…we do seem to throw our first rounder away too easily. Then again, Scherholtz threw it away pretty often, too. And we have acquired some pretty good talent in the second round recently, so it hasn’t been wasted completely.
This is a salary dump, and nothing else. We got absolutely nothing that helps us. Chavez is a 25th man, and nothing more.
But as said above...
if we’re doing a salary dump and getting little more than fringe roster filler, why not ask for places where we could actually have holes that need filling, like 2B, SS, 3B, and CF, instead of getting a piece in the one area we are loaded to the brim with—pitching. We’ve got so many young arms, some project as starters, but a lot seem to project as middle relief. Why throw excess on top of excess when we had legitimate holes that could use space filler, i.e. a Lillibridge or Blanco type.
by Mr. Sanchez on Dec 10, 2009 11:24 AM EST up reply actions
Wren should be fired. How was he not able to get Longoria in return?!
"SIGN PUJOLS OR FIRE WREN" ~ Swo12bv
by Smoltz's Beard on Dec 10, 2009 11:16 AM EST reply actions
Yeah shes overrated.
"Hey Fat Kid...the monster is right behind you! RUNNNN!!" -The Host
by bwellnjonesco on Dec 10, 2009 11:25 AM EST up reply actions
Everyone is forgetting something.
We could have afforded Rafael Soriano if we hadn’t already signed Billy Wagner. And remember that we had to give up a draft pick in order to add Soriano. So here’s the criteria on which to grade Frank Wren-the fact that we could have had one of the following:
1) Billy Wagner at $7 million for one year (with a $6.5 million vesting option) and Jesse Chavez.
2) Rafael Soriano at $8 million, retaining the 19th overall pick in the 2010 draft.
I think it comes to a net loss. Perhaps it’s tough to blame FW for the decision made by Soriano’s agent in accepting arbitration, but if he’d been in closer contact with the agent, he might have waited a bit longer to make the Wagner signing.
I’ll take Wagner over Soriano. As far as the 19th pick, well, a lot of times they turn out about as good as Jesse Chavez.
I wrote a novel, it's about baseball, you should buy it: https://www.createspace.com/3407939
www.dropoutproductions.com
true, true
but i’m still bitter about it.
by Mr. Sanchez on Dec 10, 2009 11:58 AM EST up reply actions
But wouldn't you like as many draft picks as you can get?
I mean, that’s exactly why we offered arbitration to Soriano in the first place, so we could potentially cash in on more draft picks.
Sometimes the 19th overall pick is James Loney or Conor Jackson.
And sometimes,...
the picks aren’t as valuable as simply not paying the man—see LaRoche.
by Mr. Sanchez on Dec 10, 2009 12:02 PM EST up reply actions
LaRoche wasn't type A.
And there was a good chance he’d have made more in arbitration than he would have in free agency.
But I’ve already compared Soriano’s suspected compensation to what we’re definitely paying, and it’s a difference of $1 million.
I’m not seeing Loney or Jackson as compelling arguments, but that’s whatever.
Yeah, I’d love more draft picks, but things being what they are, you could argue that a reliever who appeared in over 70 major league games and is only 25 is more valuable than a potential draft pick. Not necessarily that I agree with that, but it’s an argument.
I wrote a novel, it's about baseball, you should buy it: https://www.createspace.com/3407939
www.dropoutproductions.com
If you don't see the value in a Loney or Conor Jackson
I can’t help you. But both guys posted OBPs over .350 in their last full season, and cost almost nothing.
I’m just saying, as 19th overall picks, as first basemen, they produce like second baseman. Not exactly top value, particularly out of a power corner spot. I like both guys, they’re good ballplayers and they’ve both been very nice to me personally, but they’re not exactly studs.
I wrote a novel, it's about baseball, you should buy it: https://www.createspace.com/3407939
www.dropoutproductions.com
"SIGN PUJOLS OR FIRE WREN" ~ Swo12bv
by Smoltz's Beard on Dec 10, 2009 11:58 AM EST up reply actions
Meat-man… ever since my son was… never born, because I’ve never had consensual sex without money involved… I’ve always kind of looked at you as… a thing, that I could live next to… in accordance with state laws.
Here are Pujols's stats: 1.000/1.000/4.000/5.000. That's right. He is batting a thousand, with a thousand OBP (naturally), and every hit has been a home run, and thus his OPS is a perfect 5.000.
by TradeAndruw on Dec 10, 2009 12:05 PM EST up reply actions
LOL
"SIGN PUJOLS OR FIRE WREN" ~ Swo12bv
by Smoltz's Beard on Dec 10, 2009 12:21 PM EST up reply actions
I dont neeeeed no instructions to know how to ROCK!!
I thought hurricane season was over........
by bravesguy311 on Dec 10, 2009 3:25 PM EST up reply actions
Basically we dumped 8 million off our books and received a AAAA bullpen depth guy. It could be worse. Soriano accepting arbitration killed us, but Wren had to offer it or we would’ve gotten nothing. I wonder though if we would’ve ever signed Saito had we known Soriano was going to accept. I would much rather have Wagner and Soriano to be quite honest.
or it could have been better,...
and we add a AAAA IF or CF. My primary beef with this is Jesse Chavez when we had so many guys who are so similar—Valdez, Abreu, Hyde, Proctor, Redmond, Diamond, Gunderson, Gustafson, Sullivan, Marek, and on and on and on, not to mention guys like Gearrin and Kimbrel.
by Mr. Sanchez on Dec 10, 2009 12:03 PM EST up reply actions
Dude, I’m loving the Frisky Dingo avatar.
I wrote a novel, it's about baseball, you should buy it: https://www.createspace.com/3407939
www.dropoutproductions.com
they are still in business...
just not for adult swim. They are making the new f/x show Archer. I’m interested to see it. Not sure if it will be near Frisky Dingo or Sealab 2021, but it looks good. Kinda like a spy Xander Crewes, and he was my favorite character in Frisky.
I saw the pilot episode they aired back when It’s Always Sunny premiered this year. Pretty funny; not sure if it’s going to work for half an hour at a time, but there was some great stuff. And anyway, you have to love anything with H. John Benjamin in it.
I wrote a novel, it's about baseball, you should buy it: https://www.createspace.com/3407939
www.dropoutproductions.com
I'm still waiting for this
Here are Pujols's stats: 1.000/1.000/4.000/5.000. That's right. He is batting a thousand, with a thousand OBP (naturally), and every hit has been a home run, and thus his OPS is a perfect 5.000.
They should have traded him to a team that is a lock to finish in last place, like the Pirates or Royals. Either of those two teams would have given up the farm for him, and Soriano would have no way of even sniffing the postseason.
This trade sucks.
Yup.
"SIGN PUJOLS OR FIRE WREN" ~ Swo12bv
by Smoltz's Beard on Dec 10, 2009 12:21 PM EST up reply actions
The Mets…not quite last place, but bad enough to where I think they qualify!
:)
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Dec 10, 2009 12:49 PM EST up reply actions
I’m reading the comments on MLBTR about this, and…wow. Never ceases to amaze me.
"SIGN PUJOLS OR FIRE WREN" ~ Swo12bv
by Smoltz's Beard on Dec 10, 2009 12:40 PM EST reply actions
It’s like looking at a train wreck…you know it shouldn’t be admired, but you can’t help but to stare.
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Dec 10, 2009 12:50 PM EST up reply actions
Pretty much, yes.
"SIGN PUJOLS OR FIRE WREN" ~ Swo12bv
by Smoltz's Beard on Dec 10, 2009 1:02 PM EST up reply actions
I wonder if when we get rid of Lowe if we could make a run at Jason Bay. I know all the knocks against him but he would be the big bat that we need. Matt Holliday is not even a pipe dream simply because he’s going to get over $100M from someone, plus he’s going to command 5 years. We know that Bay already turned down a 4 year $60M offer from the Red Sox so maybe we could offer 4 years $68M. He would provide us with a solid bat to protect Chipper and our offense wouldn’t be that bad. Throw a 1 year $2M deal with an extra $2M in incentives at Nady to play 1B and call it good.
this is pretty irrelevant, but does anyone know what the hell goes on at these meetings? is it just all of the GM’s sitting around a big round table or what?
"Im a fullonrapist, I do men, women, autistic kids, children, the elderly." -Charlie Kelly
Haha, I was wondering that myself. I picture an open bar and a whole lot of arguing and finger pointing, but that’s probably just college memories coming back to me.
"SIGN PUJOLS OR FIRE WREN" ~ Swo12bv
by Smoltz's Beard on Dec 10, 2009 1:03 PM EST up reply actions
lol, I would love to be a fly on the wall :)
" If you're going to be accused of something, being accused of being a nice guy is not the worst thing to be accused of."
Mark Richt (November 3, 2009)
All of the teams have their own suites
Most things that are discussed never get far at all but if something become serious at all between a GM and an agent or two GMs, they’ll pretty much bring all the big players from each side into one of the suites to have a closed door meeting.
R.I.P Jazz #6
Braves pitching question
Does Kris Medlen have any shot at making the rotation next season? As for Soriano, I wonder what the Astros were offering. It looks like they were heavy in the trade discussions before the Rays popped up.
My fantasy football team this year? Lippincott's Shorts
Bobby and Frank probably liked what they saw when Chavez pitched against us last year.
3 2/3 IP
1 H
4 K
0 BB
I dont like anything this trade… I mean Soriano is a good trade package for trading it with Lowe or Soriano for a decent pitcher not Chavez… Soriano had a 2.97 ERA compared to Chavez 4.01… Soriano had 102 K compared to Chavez 47… Only Chavez had an advantage is in winning percentage, we could have get a little better reliever for Soriano or at least a bench bat… Wren can do better than that. All analysts said that Soriano was one of the best closer in the market and some said he was the best… we could get a good power productive bat with the combination of Soriano and Lowe,… but well I hope Wren does what he does best… SEND THE BRAVES TO THE WORLD SERIES!!!
by Kobe:The Legend on Dec 10, 2009 3:57 PM EST reply actions
Can I get a translator?
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Dec 10, 2009 4:12 PM EST up reply actions
im not from U.S.A. so I dont speak the english perfectly
by Kobe:The Legend on Dec 10, 2009 4:31 PM EST up reply actions
Gotcha. I think I can figure out exactly what you meant, but it is a little hard.
I imagine my Spanglish would look worse to a Hispanic than this did to me though.
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Dec 10, 2009 4:54 PM EST up reply actions
The problem is...
…that Soriano and Lowe had little to no trade value. Good pitchers, but with hefty contracts relative to performance. If Soriano was that valuable, he could have been obtained for a team’s draft pick before he accepted arbitration. Comparing Soriano’s pitching to Chavez’s pitching is irrelevant—-the trade was about salary, nothing else.
look around the league at comparable players...
the contracts for Soriano and Lowe are actually pretty good relative to their performances. Soriano might be worse if someone had to commit to multiple years guaranteed, but they are getting one year non-guaranteed so it’s not as bad.
Translation
I dont like anything this trade… I mean Soriano is a good trade package for trading it with Lowe or Soriano for a decent pitcher not good and either on his own or in a package with Lowe far exceeds some schmuck like Chavez… Soriano had a 2.97 ERA 3.05 tRA compared to Chavez 4.01 5.48… Soriano had 102 K 12.13 K/9 compared to Chavez 47 6.28 … Only thing Chavez has on Soriano is had an advantage is in winning percentage nothing. we could have get acquired a little better reliever for Soriano or at least a bench bat… Wren can do better than that. All analysts said that Soriano was one of the best closers in the market and some said he was the best… we could get a good power productive bat Carlos Pena with the combination of Soriano and Lowe,… but well I hope Wren does what he does best screw this team up any further… SEND THE BRAVES TO THE WORLD SERIES!!!
If Albert played in the AFL, they’d have to rename it the AZ/NM Fall League, based on where his homers landed.
Only thing Chavez has on Soriano is nothing.
LOL
"SIGN PUJOLS OR FIRE WREN" ~ Swo12bv
by Smoltz's Beard on Dec 11, 2009 9:13 AM EST up reply actions
Translation
I dont like anything this trade… I mean Soriano is a good trade package for trading it with Lowe or Soriano for a decent pitcher not good and either on his own or in a package with Lowe far exceeds some schmuck like Chavez… Soriano had a 2.97 ERA 3.05 tRA compared to Chavez 4.01 5.48… Soriano had 102 K 12.13 K/9 compared to Chavez 47 6.28 … Only thing Chavez has on Soriano is had an advantage is in winning percentage nothing. we could have get acquired a little better reliever for Soriano or at least a bench bat… Wren can do better than that. All analysts said that Soriano was one of the best closers in the market and some said he was the best… we could get a good power productive bat Carlos Pena with the combination of Soriano and Lowe,… but well I hope Wren does not what he does best screw this team up any further… SEND THE BRAVES TO THE WORLD SERIES!!!
If Albert played in the AFL, they’d have to rename it the AZ/NM Fall League, based on where his homers landed.
Twice as nice.
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Dec 10, 2009 9:50 PM EST up reply actions
Sorry, TC was acting up.
If Albert played in the AFL, they’d have to rename it the AZ/NM Fall League, based on where his homers landed.
it’s all good. I think it has happened to all of us at some point by now.
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Dec 11, 2009 5:15 PM EST up reply actions
Hmm.... Salary Dump Alert
Hey so Wren just wanted to dump Soriano and man did he ever ; Jesse Chavez ? WTF ?
This guy was so bad he couldn’t really be a decent arm in the Pirates bullpen.
Nothing more than a salary dump and we only had one taker so we took.
Simply couldn’t afford Soriano and boy did he screw us out of some picks I am glad he is gone.
Cannot wait until he starts blowing saves and looking tired in the Rays bullpen after a couple of days of back to back work.
by Holty_Panthers_Fan on Dec 10, 2009 4:00 PM EST reply actions
Hmm.... Salary Dump Alert
Hey so Wren just wanted to dump Soriano and man did he ever ; Jesse Chavez ? WTF ?
This guy was so bad he couldn’t really be a decent arm in the Pirates bullpen.
Nothing more than a salary dump and we only had one taker so we took.
Simply couldn’t afford Soriano and boy did he screw us out of some picks I am glad he is gone.
Cannot wait until he starts blowing saves and looking tired in the Rays bullpen after a couple of days of back to back work.
by Holty_Panthers_Fan on Dec 10, 2009 4:00 PM EST reply actions
DO ANY OF YOU UNDERSTAND THIS IS A BUSINESS?!
You’re really complaining about the return here? Frank Wren had absolutely NO leverage. He knew it, the Rays knew it, Rafael Soriano and his agent knew it. The Rays were essentially the only team in the running after the Astros got Lindstrom and the Braves had to dump the salary, no ifs ands or buts about it. Don’t think of this as a trade. This is essentially a free agent signing by the Rays where we get something between what we would have gotten had we not offered arb and the two picks if he had declined. It’s amazing that you guys are complaining about this. We got a possibly usable bullpen piece with no leverage, that’s the best we could have hoped for. I’m sorry that some of you dreamers out there had your eyes on zobrist but give me a break.
R.I.P Jazz #6
I like you.
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Dec 10, 2009 5:11 PM EST up reply actions
The all caps means its not just a business…its serious business.
by soup du jour on Dec 10, 2009 5:13 PM EST up reply actions
haha
"SIGN PUJOLS OR FIRE WREN" ~ Swo12bv
by Smoltz's Beard on Dec 10, 2009 5:22 PM EST up reply actions
Bingo.
"SIGN PUJOLS OR FIRE WREN" ~ Swo12bv
by Smoltz's Beard on Dec 10, 2009 5:21 PM EST up reply actions
the business aspect of it...
relates to Soriano though, and not Chavez. I’ve said it before and will hopefully say it for the last time. If all you wanted was roster filler, why not get it in a spot we actually need like 2B, SS, 3B, CF, instead of filling a place where we are already overflowing in middle relievers.
Let me take a swing at that one
We weren’t going to get anything of use at those positions. We’ve got enough utility players and that’s the best we could have hoped for in return. What we got was a reliever with pretty decent stuff who could win a spot in the bullpen. Middle relievers are so difficult to predict that having another guy who can come in and compete is almost certainly a better acquisition than another utility guy who won’t add anything.
R.I.P Jazz #6
We had no power at all here
The Rays had us over a barrel, they likely wanted to move one reliever for another on their roster, we were happy just to find a deal where we didn’t send them cash.
YES.
Somebody around here is more anal than the mom on 7th heaven. Freakin' A. lol
(self-appointed President of Yunel's Cartel~~~)
by Chief Noc-A-Homa on Dec 10, 2009 5:35 PM EST up reply actions
Jesse Chavez
Here are Pujols's stats: 1.000/1.000/4.000/5.000. That's right. He is batting a thousand, with a thousand OBP (naturally), and every hit has been a home run, and thus his OPS is a perfect 5.000.
I went and checked out the Rays' blog
The Soriano trade thread is pretty hilarious. In a good way. I’ve always liked the Rays
I like this deal.
It’s certainly not a transaction worthy of the term “coup,” but I think Wren pulled off a fairly adroit operation:
- he shed at least $6 million (about $6.5 if you use Soriano’s new $7 million, one-year deal as a guage for his cost) from the payroll,
- he received immediate (as opposed to long-term, draft-based) compensation for a departing free-agent he found no longer useful at cost,
- and he fortified the middle-inning corps of the bullpen (which hadn’t been addressed in the flurry of late-inning additions) with a cost-controlled 26-year-old who owns decent k- and bb-rates (at both major- and minor-league stops) and two seasons before he hits arbitration.
Especially considering the fact that the market has developed very slowly for both Matt Holliday and Jason Bay, I think Wren did an excellent job balancing the current desideratum of payroll-options and the unexpected trade-options presented by Soriano’s accepting arbitration.
Abreu, Proctor, Acosta, Valdez, Kimbrel, Hyde, Diamond, Redmond,....
Moylan, EOF, Gearrin, Cofield, Parr, Lyman, Medlen, Ortegano, Reyes, perhaps Boone Logan or Marek among SEVERAL others. But apparently our middle relief needed fortifying. And it had been addressed with guys like Abreu and Proctor, in addition to the numerous younger players coming up.
Yes and no
Other than Moylan (who is more late-inning), O’Flaherty (who is more situational), and Medlen (who is a great prospect, and – in my opinion – still a future starter), I’m pretty sure I have more faith in Jesse Chavez than the middle-relief options you list.
Some of my doubts are medically-founded (Proctor), many are predicated on performance (Acosta, Logan, et cetera), and several more are based simply in relative inexperience (Kimbrel, Marek, et cetera); nonetheless, after Atlanta’s top-three of Wagner-Saito-Medlen, there was (and likely still is, to a lesser extent) cause for trepidation. Any positive movement on this front – especially movement that liberates more salary-space – should be greeted with appreciation, in my opinion.
fair enough...
but with the 5 starters (and Medlen may be one down the line, but with our current roster he’s bullpen all the way next year), you get Wagner, Saito, Moylan, O’Flaherty, and Medlen making 10 on the pitching staff already. Not considering injuries, that just leaves spots 11 and 12 in the pitching staff and I think we have more than enough options there. What we don’t have right now though, is a 4th (or 3rd) OF, or a 2nd IF behind Infante.
The problem is
I’m not sure any of the teams interested in Soriano – especially those interested in absorbing his entire 2010 salary – had viable major-league players to fill those positions, particularly with multiple seasons of cost-certainty ahead (as is the case with Jesse Chavez). Moreover, I think a second backup-infielder is much lower priority than middle-relief, while our minor-league system has the depth to produce an average fourth-outfielder.
Also: don’t forget that these are positions which could be filled through subsequent transactions involving trade-candidates Lowe and Johnson — especially if the trade of Lowe falls towards the “pure salary dump” end of the trade spectrum.
Personally
I wouldnt mind signing Calero or another strong BP arm and replacing Medlen in the pen with Chavez.
The only reason I say that is so he can continue to develop as a starter. It would be great if next year when Javy walks we can replace him with Medlen. We will already have the top 3 spots set with Hudson, Hanson, and J.J. then Medlen and Kawakami would be nice options for the #4 and #5 spots.
Javy is going to sign a career-length extension for a home-town discount…because he likes Wren so much.
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Dec 10, 2009 7:37 PM EST up reply actions
we should see if Bay AND Holliday will sign here for less too!
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Dec 10, 2009 9:51 PM EST up reply actions
I heard Bay just wants to play with his old Pirate buddies again...
Holliday’s got a bit of family coaching at Vandy and NC St, plus he’s from Oklahoma and Tommy Hanson is from Oklahoma. And I heard they both were big fans of Bobby Cox growing up, so they’re willing to come real cheap on a one year deal, just to be in Atlanta.
its like the 7 degrees of Kevin Bacon
Heyward,Hanson,and Shaffer r ready now!! Why do you think they havent signed the "right handed bat"?
by fatazfoot on Jan 7, 2009 8:59 PM EST
haha nice- just heard about that in math class a few weeks ago
I thought hurricane season was over........
by bravesguy311 on Dec 11, 2009 4:06 PM EST up reply actions
Deal not complete yet
No Soriano-to-Rays trade announcement until Fri. Docs didn’t have time to sign off on med info.
I’m assured that it’s nothing that threatens the trade, just a matter of docs in surgeries today, not able to review all on short notice.
-DOB tweets
where are you now J-Freak?!?
(Yunel is still the Queen of Hearts)
I took the day off
Finished my semester yesterday, moving back home tomorrow, so today I didn’t do jack shit except go see Boondock Saints II.
There is such a thing????
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Dec 11, 2009 8:36 AM EST up reply actions
How was it? I was supposed to go when it first came out but plans fell through. I’ve got a feeling it’s going to be bad…
"SIGN PUJOLS OR FIRE WREN" ~ Swo12bv
by Smoltz's Beard on Dec 11, 2009 9:22 AM EST up reply actions
anytime theres a huge delay between the sequal and the original the anticipation leaves you bound to be dissapointed…i have yet to see it either…but its all i can thnk about
Heyward,Hanson,and Shaffer r ready now!! Why do you think they havent signed the "right handed bat"?
by fatazfoot on Jan 7, 2009 8:59 PM EST
FAIL
It was epic on a scale I’ve never seen. Successfully recaptured the spirit of the first one in every capacity, then added an extra half-scoop of style just to polish it off. Also, faggy Willem Dafoe gets replaced by a total hottie (with a Southern drawl to boot). Anybody who’s seen the original will absolutely love it.
Forgot to mention the absolutely bitchin’ soundtrack too. I was actually pissed when I got home and found out it’s not being sold as a soundtrack album. O well. I’ll just await the DVD.
i am happily surprised to hear such a glowing review…however.. Willem Dafoe is amazing and calling him faggy is ludicrous, unless it actually in reference to his character who was intentionally faggy.
Heyward,Hanson,and Shaffer r ready now!! Why do you think they havent signed the "right handed bat"?
by fatazfoot on Jan 7, 2009 8:59 PM EST
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