I liked Joey Devine, but we kinda gotta have a centerfield option this year to hold down the fort for Jordan Schafer or Gorkys Hernandez.

When we are in August and the pen is suffering and we are having to trade to get another bullpen arm...and devine is putting decent numbers with Oakland...and Kotsay is on the DL or released...I am going to be upset.

Kotsay's numbers have been subpar the last three years.  Yes he was injured last year and that is why his numbers were down, but he isn't likely to be 100% again at his age with his back.  Yes his defense is consdered pretty good but I would bet that Anderson or Blanco would have been fine in CF defensively and with our CF likely batting #8 the offense is a secondary concern.

As for Kotsay leading off...with his OBP the last three years it is like having Andruw Jones leading off.  You don't have a guy with an OBP of .312 leading off.

If we were that concerned with CF why didn't we just sign Cameron.  The brewers got him for a 1 yr deal with a club option for a 2nd year. If you include the buyout for '09 the package would have been less then 7 mil a year.  I would rather have done that then just give a way a first round pick like devine. His minor league numbers looked good.  His earlier failures were largely the result of mismanagement.

Am I the only one who is lookign at our bullpen and thinking it is still a little suspect?  The only givens we have right now are Soriano, Moylan, and Ohman. (Assuming Moylan's arm hasn't fallen off from the overwork last year).  Yes Yates can look good a times....yes Acosta has a great arm (but major control issues...yes Gonzalez MAY be back sometime next year. All in all that is more maybes then certainities.  We shouldn't be trading away promising yound relievers right now.

Why is it a mistake?  Why do you think Joey Devine will develop?  Devine was not really in the picture for pitching his year, and he is out of options, so it was get something while you could.

Devine is going to be a bust.  What from the guy so far says he is going to be good.  I saw him in the CWS when he was good and he put up bad numbers there.  He was bad in his MLB debut and he wasn't that good last year.

i don't know why guys get time in the minors, if you can't perform in 19.2 innings of MLB time, especially if a third of them came in the same year you were drafted, you're going to be a bust... can't believe we got anyone to give up an actual experience major league player (tm) for him, let alone one who almost matched the average put up by our CF from last year

Kotsay...  ARGH!!!!!!!!!!!!!

IMHO, I think we got screwed on this one.

He was rushed when drafted in 2005, playing hurt in 2006 and shuttled back-and-forth from the minors to the majors and back in 2007.  Through it all, his professional record is largely impressive.

2.73 ERA, 1.16 WHIP and 13.01 K/9 in 112.1 IP (93 G)

Look guys, he'll be 24 next year, he's got the stuff and the minor league track record.  Like it was said above, 19.2 random innings at the major league level are too small a sample to drive a conclussion.  My money's on him being the closer we all expected him to be sooner rather than later.

Here's what I'm expecting from him: .265/.320/.380, negative worth on the basepaths and average defense in CF.  You know where I got that from?  Those are basically his numbers from over the last three years!  If we had signed him to a cheap, FA contract so he could COMPETE with Gregor Blanco (my personal favorite) and Josh Anderson (we traded for him for no apparent reason, so he deserves a shot) then it'd be OK.  That said, we gave up a top 5 prospect, a potential future closer, for the ghost of a once decent player.  I never wanted this guy and I hate what we eneded up giving up for him.  Terrible, just terrible...

You don't trade young pitching for a one year rental. Do the names Adam Wainwright and JD Drew mean nothing to these people?

What is the point?

If all the Braves fans had terminal illnesses I could see making deals like this.

Is there a meteor headed for Earth we don't know about?

Joey Devine is 24, had a 1.08 ERA in his short visit to the Braves in 2007, had 13 K's per 9 IPs in AA, and a 1.64 ERA in AAA. He only gave up two homers total all year in three stops. People have bad memories of his bad October rookie age 21 draft year where he started pitching college ball in February. Forget it, he has.

Kotsay is a one year fix, and IF he back woes are over and he does well, so what, he's a free agent, we'll get nothing for him, and we've got two top prospects behind him. This is complete total short term thinking.

There will be a 2009.

I think Frank Wren has been watching too many Al Gore films.

First off, I want to be on the record as saying that I'm not completely satisfied with this trade. I'm not a general manager, and I don't have any experience running a professional baseball organization, but it just doesn't seem right to deal a young, talented pitcher with a huge upside for a one year rental of an aging outfielder with chronic back problems.

Now, I could be wrong...and I hope I am. Devine could be a flash in the pan; a kid who puts up great numbers in the minors, but never fulfills on his promise at the major league level. And Kotsay may be completely healthy, as he says he is, and provide Atlanta with decent offensive statistics, above average defense in center, and a positive clubhouse presence with a tireless hustle and work ethic. If that's the case, then he becomes the perfect player who allows the Braves to compete in the near future until Jordan Schafer is ready.

However, the alternative perspective I wanted to throw out there is this: just like the fans, I assume most general managers possess a good long term memory. And I'm almost positive that Billy Beane remembers a trade he made with the Braves a few years ago, in which he traded Tim Hudson for Charles Thomas, Juan Cruz, and Dan Meyer. Essentially, he dealt away one of his "Big Three" starters, a perennial Cy Young candidate, and in return, received an overachieving "fourth" outfielder, an erratic relief pitcher, and a possibly great, young lefty who turned out to be injury prone. I think we all thought at the time, and still to this day, that Schuerholz most definitely got the better end of that deal!

Fast forward three years, and once again Oakland is engaged in trade talks with Atlanta. If I were Billy Beane, knowing that the Braves are apparently desperate to add a veteran centerfielder to their roster, I am sure as hell gonna hold out for a great deal and make sure I don't get swindled again.

So, for the sake of having peace of mind, I find myself justifying this recent trade by combining it with the earlier one. Which would look like this: Tim Hudson and Mark Kotsay, for Joey Devine, Thomas, Cruz and Meyer. Now, isn't that easier to swallow?

I couldn't agree with you more bigjoe, one bad trade after another.With Devine gone I would guess Wrens next trade will be Jordan Schafer and Gorkys Hernandez for some beat up injury prone old has been reliever for 2 or 3  months who will of course be a free agent at the end of '08.

And no scott it doesn't make it one damn bit easier to swallow.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3193556

To tell you the truth, I don't like this trade, and I will explain why.  But, first, I will suggest an explanation for why the Braves are doing this.  I believe Frank Wren and the Braves' brass look at this trade in the following perspective.

First, they want to trade from a position of strength to fortify a position of weakness.

The Braves control Rafael Soriano for one more season, and have already designated him as their closer.  Peter Moylan, who had a breakthrough 2007 season, gets righthanded hitters out as well as anyone.  Manny Acosta has major league upside, and will make the Braves' 2008 roster.  Blaine Boyer is out of options, and they want him to make their staff.  They still control Tyler Yates, who is not a fan favorite but IS a Cox favorite.  Plus, they know Phil Stockman can help them if he is he is healthy.  There you have five righthanded relief pitchers.  The Braves are also prepared to take serious looks at Jeff Bennett, Zack Schreiber, and Chris Resop.  

Now, I'm not suggesting Resop or Yates have the kind of stuff Devine has.  (They don't.)  But it has become clear that the Braves like Acosta better than they like Devine.   The problem with this is that Acosta has not shown that he can get lefthanded hitters out.  

Of course, Devine hasn't shown the capability to get major league lefthanded hitters out, either.  And Devine also has a history of back problems.  So from Wren's point of view, he is moving Devine while Devine is attractive, i.e., before his back flares up again.

Bottom line....it remains to be seen whether Devine will ever have the make-up and command of a major league closer, and he hasn't shown the ability to get lefthanded hitters out.  The Braves don't need a closer at the present time, and they obviously like Acosta, Boyer, and Stockman better than they like Devine for the future.  

Meanwhile, I think this trade shows that Frank Wren is absolutely desparate for a center fielder with major league experience.  Josh Anderson has 67 major league ABs, while Gregor Blanco has zero major league experience and does not enjoy the confidence of the Braves' brass.  Jordan Shafer may be the golden boy of the future, but the 21 year old Shafer has never had an AB above A-ball.  Wren and his inner circle have taken a good, long look at Shafer, and they just aren't prpared to throw the kid to the wolves yet.  (And that is probably wise.)  Wren tried to get Coco Crisp and Melky Cabrera, but the price was way too high.  

Mark Kotsay has been a top tier major league center fielder as recently as 2005, and he is still only 32 years old.   Kotsay (when healthy) is one of the best defensive outfielders in major league baseball.  Moreover, the outlines of this tentative deal suggest the Braves will only be on the hook for $2-3 million of Kotsay's 2008 salary.  

So this deal is a gamble.  Frank Wren has rolled the dice here, because he is desparate for a center fielder.  If Kotsay can stay healthy, then the Braves can put a worthy major league center fielder with excellent defensive skills on the field in 2008, while saving Shafer for 2009, and giving the kid a season of experience in AA.  In order to acquire Kotsay, the Braves are giving up a 24 year old relief pitcher in whom Bobby Cox has no confidence.   They are also shipping out their 2005 first round draft choice, who has been a disappointment.  This is being done barely three months after they cut ties with Andruw Jones.  So for the organization, this is like turning a page from one chapter to the next.

I don't like this trade.  There is no way a doctor in Atlanta can perform a physical exam on Mark Kotsay in Atlanta this week and predict whether Kotsay will have back spasms next spring and summer.   The doctor can perform the standard evaluational maneuvers, such as straight leg raising, range of motion assessments, and symmetrical muscle strength assessment.  If he has concerns, he can order myograms, and so forth.    But there is no way the doctor can know whether Kotsay will have back spasms again under future conditions of intensive athletic activity.  Kotsay missed most of 2007 with back spasms, and people with that medical history generally tend to experience recurrence when subjected to the same physical stressors.  The Braves already have a tainted history in trading for injured players like Octavio Dotel and Mike Gonzalez.  That's the first reason I don't like the trade.

The other reason I don't like it is the Braves'  recent bullpen history.    I understand why the Braves don't have confidence in Devine, but OTOH they liked him when they drafted him #1 in 2005.  That tells you they like Devine's stuff, but not his make-up.  It tends to suggest they may still be worried about his back for the longer term.   However, the bullpen has tended to be a weakness for the Braves in recent years.  Rafael Soriano will be very difficult to re-sign after the 2008 season, and the Braves do not have an obvious replacement for Soriano inside their organization.  Even if Devine never develops the savvy and command of a closer, he could still become a major asset as a set-up man if the club is forced to trial Moylan in the closer role.  The Braves have control of Devine's contract for another five years at a bargain price.  Over that period of time, I think Devine is likely to become more valuable than Kotsay.  And there is a pretty good chance that could happen as early as 2008, if Kotsay's back spasms recur.

And even if Kotsay defies the odds and plays well in 2008, the Braves will be looking for a younger center fielder to eat into his role by July.  This just doesn't seem worth the price of a 24 year old relief pitcher with closer stuff.  Frankly, IMHO, Billy Beane is lucky another GM was willing to give up anything for Kotsay.  As always, JMO.

This was a really STUPID trade by Frank Wren. Last night when I saw this trade go by the espen score board thing, I felt like throwing a baseball at my new HD TV. Why would you trade a reliever that has at chance at being your teams closer for the future for a short term CF. Plus, Kotsay is very injury prone. Devine also made a major step up from his last couple of years in the minors and in the majors. I was finally starting to see Devine pitch with some confidents. This trade really weakens our bullpen. I was counting on Devine to have a impact on the Braves pen next season. I wasn't really sold on the pen with Devine to begin with. Now I really dont like it. Hopefully Kris Medlen and Si Ki Jung could move through AA and AAA fast so they can help out the Braves bullpen next season. Plus, I am not really sold on our starting rotation yet. Glavine is on the down part of his career so I dont know what he can give us. Hampton is probably going to get hurt again sooner or later. Jurrjens and Reyes are both young pitchers that are still trying to find a feel of being a quality and consistent major league pitcher. And James is only a two pitch pitcher with absolutely NO stamina. I like having Kotsay on our team. But that new GM overpaid for him. I really HATE this trade. We are going to have to fight this year in trying to get into the playoffs. We are going to have to make another trade befor the deadline to acquire another SP. I would say that we are probably the best team in the NL East by default. Mainly because the Mets and Phils really didn't do anything this offseason. If the Mets get Johan Santana then they will win the East division.

for prado and blanco/anderson? that would have made a whole lot more sense. we gave up devine and now we have 2 capable outfielders in blanco and anderson that we will never use.

MLBtraderumors.com is reporting that a Bay Area sports writer is saying we could possibly be also sending an additional A ball player.

because of the physical on Monday (which is typical), but maybe with the extra time Wren can rethink this madness.

Reasons why this is a good trade:

1. Kotsay at least has big league experience, a leg up on Blanco and Anderson
2. He's a good defensive outfielder.

Reasons why this is a bad trade:

1. Joey Devine was a stud in college and has been in the minors. He's been given close to zero shot at pitching in the majors and has had bad luck with injuries and the pyschological affects of those grand slams and walk off shot in 2005. He still can be a solid middle relief arm for a number of seasons, possibly better than that.
2. Mark Kotsay is solidly on the decline. His .314/.370/.459 line looked nice in 2004 at age 28, but those were unsurprisingly all a career highs in his peak year. Expecting him to rebound to that level at 32 is stupid. Hell, since that season he's played worse than his career averages in AVG/OBP/SLG.
3. His righty/lefty splits are identical so it's not like he can even be valuable in a platoon situation.
4. This trade would block any chance of a better alternative from emerging. Blanco was good enough at AAA and has been a stud in winter ball. He's done everything you can ask of him to win this job and is basically the only chance to get positive value out of CF in 2008. Kotsay blocks him (at least until another injury sidelines him in  June).

And whoever brought up getting a draft pick, that's basically impossible short of an MVP like season when Kotsay spent last year either injured or posting a .214/.279/.296.

MLBTR is saying we could be throwing an A ball pitcher in the mix as well. To go along with wrens bad trade here we are probably giving up cole rohrbough too.

I sure hope Kotsay fails the physical. He's an injury prone CF who plays below replacement-level. There's no reason to give up any players for him, let alone the best relief prospect in the system. Taking him off the A's hands for free would be a favor to them. The only thing this trade would accomplish would be to insert a gigantic offensive black hole into an otherwise solid lineup. Blanco could do a better job while getting paid league minimum, and wouldn't cost a good relief prospect and an A-baller in the process. There's obviously a reason Wren was fired after just one year as the O's GM.

Kotsay said he regards Bobby Cox as a guy/manager that he really expects.  Also exicted to play on a cometitive team.  The Braves players seem really high on him.  Tiexara saying he's just as good as Andruw Jones.  Hopefully a change will bring back his better years.
Do I like Kotsay yes do I like what we gave up for him No but Devine really didn't look like he was going to be involved in the pen this year besides for other guys getting injured.
I think Kotsay can prove people wrong.  I was hoping to get a SP involved in the trade but oh well.  Our team is solid at every position and more.
Yes, I know Im being very, very positive.