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Wren is taking the Braves into "uncharted waters"

The discussion going on in the Quote of the Day thread got me thinking about this this article, written by Mark Newman, which was posted on Fangraphs on Dec. 16th. It focuses on the youth movement currently taking place in Atlanta, and establishes how rare it is for a team to give everyday jobs to three players under the age of 23. If Tyler Pastornicky is our shortstop next season, and the Braves claim that he probably will be, the Braves will have three 22 year old players in their everyday lineup (Heyward and Freeman being the other two). Here's a little from the article.

First, what the Braves are considering is unprecedented. No team since 1950 has given 400 or more plate appearance to three players under age 23. If we move the cutoff to 100 plate appearances we find 21 examples. As the table below demonstrates, these 21 teams are not exactly models of success as they combined to average 67 wins, a .422 winning percentage, and produced only three winning seasons.

...

The 2012 Braves will definitely be unique. They are likely to give more playing time to guys who can’t rent a car than any team in recent history. In addition to the three regulars under age 23 the Braves also return 2010 Rookie of the Year Craig Kimbrel (23) as closer and someone out of the highly touted trio of Mike Minor (24), Julio Teheran (20), and Arodys Vizcaino (21) will likely be the fifth starter going into the season. Young players are certainly risky, but I am not sure this is necessarily what Braves fans should be worried about going into the season, as all these players either have a good track record or are very highly regarded.

First baseman Freddie Freeman is projected to follow up his respectable .345 wOBA rookie campaign with a .350. Most observers expect Jason Heyward to bounce back from a disappointing second season (.314 wOBA) in the big leagues and produce more like he did as a rookie (.376 wOBA). As for Pastornicky, he does not have to be great to improve upon the 1.1 WAR that his predecessor, Alex Gonzalez, provided in 2010 or what is available in the free-agent market (Yuniesky Betancourt?). The bigger risks for the Braves going into 2012 likely involve the health of their veterans such as Chipper Jones (39, and increasingly fragile), Tim Hudson (36, and recovering from back surgery), and Tommy Hanson (25, and recovering from shoulder tendinitis). The Braves should be a highly competitive for a postseason berth in 2012 in large part because of the quality of their young players, not in spite of them.



Don't get the wrong idea, there's no evidence to say that the Braves can't or won't contend next year simply because they're going to give so many plate appearances to three different 22 year old position players.

The only thing to really take from this is that Frank Wren is basically doing something that's never been done before. The Braves truly are going into uncharted waters. Not only do we have a trio of 22 year old players projected to be in our everday lineup, we'll also have at least three, possibly four, starting pitchers that are 25 or younger (Hanson, Beachy and Minor or Teheran). Jurrjens is only 26. Our bullpen is anchored by Craig Kimbrel, who will be 23 next year and is among the best relievers in baseball.

We've also got a host of talented players currently in their prime years: Venters, O'Flaherty, McCann, Prado and Bourn.

Then there's Kris Medlen (26), Randall Delgado (23) and Arodys Vizcaino (22) who do not currently have set roles with our team but are all young and talented players.

The reason this is sort of astonishing is not just that we have young players on our team. It's that we have this many young players and our team is a legitimate contender in the National League. We've been a 90ish win team for the past three years despite the fact that we are in the middle of a rebuilding phase.

For a team to rebuild, they usually have to suffer through multiple losing seasons. Young players are typically volatile by nature. They need to adjust to the rigors of the major leagues, as we all know. The Braves, however, are rebuilding and contending. It's an ambitious goal, one which every general manager would obviously like to accomplish, but it seems that Frank Wren might be doing a better job of it than anyone we've ever seen before.

The conversation I eluded to in the Quote of the Day thread is currently focusing on this team's payroll. Some fans are frustrated by the fact that the Braves seem to be on the cusp of being one of the best teams in baseball, and how even a modest increase in payroll could put us over the top right now.

I think we should all just stay patient. We're a mid-market team. Things could be worse, and it's certainly true that Wren has messed up a couple of times. Kenshin Kawakami was a gross example of wasted funds in 2011. Still, Wren is making more good decisions than bad ones, and his focus on building a talented core of players that will carry this team for many years seems to be yielding positive results.

The Braves have a bright future, I think this much is obvious, but they also have an impressive team in the here-and-now. That second part is really just icing on the cake. Remain patient, fellow Braves fans. Even if it's not in 2012, the Braves time is coming soon enough.

This FanPost does not express the views or opinions of Talking Chop.

Comment 42 comments  |  22 recs  | 

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I’d like to remain patient, but I’m no longer considered a Braves fan. Sad, sad, sad.

"First!"...Who gives a damn if you are first

by bighop on Jan 5, 2012 6:26 PM EST reply actions  

damn bighop, why not? WTF!
gilley is RIGHT! the future is BRIGHT!
and we will not be held hostage by Liberty Media forever.

by fandave on Jan 5, 2012 9:35 PM EST up reply actions  

Liberty Media doesn’t really bug me, I’d rather McGuirk and Sheurholtz make the decisions as an idiot owner. A good owner…I’m all for that.

Yeah, on the other thread mentioned, somebody said I wasn’t really a baseball fan because I wasn’t all giddy for months on end after the 95 WS win. The WS win didn’t change my life, therefore I’m not really a fan….go figure.

"First!"...Who gives a damn if you are first

by bighop on Jan 6, 2012 2:33 PM EST up reply actions  

Got it.
Actually, I had previously mis-read your comment above, then taken a closer look at the exact wording, then saw the exchange on the other thread and fully understood your point, plus felt your pain.
BTW, I still consider you a fan.

by fandave on Jan 6, 2012 3:39 PM EST up reply actions  

I went to Tennessee for 3 years…screw the Vols
I live in Middle Tenn…screw the Titans
NHL is the greatest spectator sport I’ve ever attended…screw the Predators
NBA…screw them all

I love my Braves

"First!"...Who gives a damn if you are first

by bighop on Jan 6, 2012 3:46 PM EST up reply actions  

Bandwagon...

Not even from Atlanta… geez… :-)

In the body of other posts, I am often admittedly high and tend to not want to edit a lot.
by willlinn on Dec 2, 2011 12:01 PM PST

if Wren gets Arenado from Colorado, I’ll give him a BJ.
by Scott Coleman on Dec 19, 2011 9:45 PM PST

by Klemson Krash on Jan 6, 2012 4:47 PM EST up reply actions  

I’m a golfer and a Braves fan, that’s about it. I’ve played golf for 46 years, I went to my 1st Braves game in about 1970. If that’s “bandwagon”, so be it.

"First!"...Who gives a damn if you are first

by bighop on Jan 6, 2012 5:31 PM EST up reply actions  

We watched some bad teams in our time as Braves fans, huh?

"First!"...Who gives a damn if you are first

by bighop on Jan 8, 2012 8:41 AM EST up reply actions  

yep. throughout the late 70s, the team was so bad that me and my rowdy friends had to engage in some severe measures just to be able to stand to watch the games.

by fandave on Jan 10, 2012 8:56 AM EST up reply actions  

Lucky for me

I didn’t have to become a fan until 1985 (I was still glint in the milk man’s eye in 1967). Only 5 years of depression!

by dcbravesfn on Jan 13, 2012 5:06 PM EST up reply actions  

How spoiled was I?

Turned 6 during spring training in 1991, this was the first game I ever went to, and the final game I went to that year was game 3 of the World Series (oh and I got to sleep in and miss school the next day). And that was still only the third best postseason game I got to attend in person in my formative years. God how I miss those days.

by nixa37 on Jan 13, 2012 8:07 PM EST up reply actions  

Who no longer considers you a Braves fan?

No sir, I don’t like it!

And it's now my sig
by Bronn on May 17, 2011 4:56 PM EDT

by Sparhawk on Jan 5, 2012 10:29 PM EST up reply actions  

Being young is a good thing – especially when the youngsters are actually very good at baseball.

My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.

by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT

by justincredubil02 on Jan 5, 2012 6:35 PM EST reply actions  

Definitely a point worth making. We’re not optimistic about the future simply because we have young players. We’re optimistic because we have players as talented as Jason Heyward, Freddie Freeman, Craig Kimbrel, Julio Teheran, Tommy Hanson, etc….

This is my corn. You people are guests in my corn.

by gilley on Jan 5, 2012 6:54 PM EST up reply actions  

You’ll notice this even tempered post laced with positivity isn’t getting much discussion. The crazies who have nothing but negative things to say are nowhere to be found. That’s how you can tell this was a worthwhile thing that needed to be posted. Good job and thank you.

I wrote a novel, it's about baseball, you should buy it:
http://www.amazon.com/Four-C-B-Wilkins/dp/1449578454/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1257720610&sr=1-1
www.dropoutproductions.com

by cbwilk on Jan 6, 2012 7:29 AM EST reply actions  

I don't think that other post had crazies at all.

There was some obvious frustration, but they’re allowed to be critical of the team while still rooting for them.

by soup du jour on Jan 6, 2012 9:40 AM EST up reply actions  

Which “other post”? There have been like 107 of them full of nutbags.

I wrote a novel, it's about baseball, you should buy it:
http://www.amazon.com/Four-C-B-Wilkins/dp/1449578454/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1257720610&sr=1-1
www.dropoutproductions.com

by cbwilk on Jan 6, 2012 10:50 AM EST up reply actions  

These days...

Things are a LOT different than in the past.

Kids have full-time year round travel all-star baseball growing up,

They play with the best and against the best a ton. The scouts have a MUCH better idea about which kids are going to excel than in the past. And the kids are much more seasoned than in the past.

I’m not saying that a 22 year old won’t get better as he matures.

I’m just saying that today’s 22 year old has probably played as many formal organized well-coached pressure packed baseball games in his life as a 27 year old had in 1950.

Chicken pot, chicken pot, chicken pot pie!!

by HalleyGator on Jan 6, 2012 7:59 AM EST reply actions  

I think this needs to get the requisite 5 recs to sit atop our FP section on the front page for a long time.

This post makes me happy. So what, we don’t have Lowrie. I’ve gotten over it (mostly)… We’ve not done anything stupid. We’ve found a couple scrap heap MiLB players who could catch on. We certainly haven’t wasted money and Wren is doing the smartest thing I’ve seen a GM do in a long time. He’s investing in his own capital. He’s keeping the talent he and his staff drafted and he’s being methodical and very patient w/ all the free wheeling, big spending going on around him. We didn’t have to spend over 10 mil per year on a closer… we kinda have the best one out there… we don’t have to spend 10+ mil on an OFer because well… we kinda have everything we need right here. Heyward will progress and Prado will bounce back. We don’t need to spend 25 mil on a 1B because well… we have a pretty darn good one. Would I have liked to see us spend 15 mil on a SS? Why? So we can block what could be a really good young kid? What about the really good young kid behind him? Better question… what do we do if Pastornicky is really good at the MLB level? When Simmons is ready… what do we do? Think about that for a second will you. Imagine a world where our prospects do pan out… Simmons comes of age and Salcedo right behind him. Lipka, J Terd, Bethancourt, Jones… I spent so much time looking at our overage of pitching and I forgot… Wren has been spending time restocking our position players too… And we have some pretty darn good ones. Maybe FW does know what he’s doing by not making a big FA splash and wasting money when it’s not warranted… My guess is, he’s showing Liberty Media he doesn’t need to come begging for money to make a competitive team but when the middle of the year comes around and we need a piece to push us over the edge, he can go to them w/ a clear conscious and tell them, look what we built from a mediocre budget. Give us a few mil, let us snag this guy and we will bring you a championship and more revenue than you can shake a stick at… I have a feeling Liberty Mutual suits will take heed and give him whatever he needs to get us to the playoffs. That’s just my feeling though.

If Wren really wanted something, I think he could have got it. He is just happy w/ his scouts. With his team. and ultimately, he knows he will put out a product we will enjoy watching.

GREAT POST. I love the optimism and somewhere, a rainbow llamasaursus is dancing.

In the body of other posts, I am often admittedly high and tend to not want to edit a lot.
by willlinn on Dec 2, 2011 12:01 PM PST

if Wren gets Arenado from Colorado, I’ll give him a BJ.
by Scott Coleman on Dec 19, 2011 9:45 PM PST

by Klemson Krash on Jan 6, 2012 9:40 AM EST reply actions   1 recs

I've enjoyed your posts as well

and it is exciting from the 3-5 year perspective on what the braves could accomplished when compared to the 1-2 perspective. Optimism isn’t a natural reaction towards situations and I’m glad that you rec’d and it is exciting from the 3-5 year perspective on what the braves could accomplished when compared to the 1-2 perspective. Optimism is not a natural reaction towards situations and I am glad that you rec’d this opinion.

So in an effort to keep this optimism going, let us play a best-case scenario option. Heyward/prado/mccan bounce back, past’s bat/glove play league average, and our additions to the staff(Minor, Teheran, or Delgado) rotation don’t miss a beat…to further it, JJ/Hanson/Hudson are 9+wins and sub 3.5 era’s and Medlen, Viscaino Oventebrel are on pace for league average appearances. As a team they are 8-9 games over .500 and tied/atop the division.

Now, what do we do then? I ask because in 3 months(baseball gods willing we make the playoffs) later we will be short a center fielder, we will up in the air about a soon to be 41 year old Chipper, McCann needs a new contract and the double headed monster of boras for JJ/Hanson will start becoming a reality.
this opinion.

So in an effort to keep this optimism going, lets play a best case scenario option. Heyward/prado/mccan bounce back, past’s bat/glove play league average, and our additions to the staff(Minor, Teheran, Delgado) rotation don’t miss a beat…to further it, JJ/Hanson/Hudson are 9+wins and sub 3.5 era’s and Medlen, Viscaino Oventebrel are on pace for league average appearances. As a team they are 8-9 games over .500 and tied/atop the division.

Now, what do we do then? I ask because in 3 months(baseball gods will we make the playoffs) later we will be short a center fielder, we will up in the air about a soon to be 41 year oldChipper, McCann needs a new contract and the double headed monster of boras for JJ/Hanson will start becoming a reality.

When I look at this from the entire season perspective, its looking more and more like this year is going to be a transition year that like the article says will be done with the expectation of winning.

However, I’m getting the feeling that will end abruptly this summer. With the supposed 40 mill coming of the books, I’d be a bit shocked to see less than 2 new faces in our every day lineup(starting lineup 2011 vs 2012).

Thoughts?

by T V 1 2 on Jan 7, 2012 1:26 PM EST up reply actions  

2nd paragraph should have stated

.500 and tied/atop the division at the all star break

by T V 1 2 on Jan 7, 2012 1:27 PM EST up reply actions  

If the Braves want to really make me happy... This is what they do in my fantasy world in 2012 getting ready for 2013 and beyond...

1. Re-sign Jas Michael Bourn to a market competitive contract. It’ been too long since Otis Nixon and Andruw Jones gaves us some stability at the position. I like what Bourn brings out team and it would be wise to invest in him as we don’t have someone w/ his skill set ready to take over next year. I also don’t like the FA market for CFs even though there are some good options. Bourn is the best of them all (to me.

2. Somehow talk my favorite player of all time into taking a role as Player/Coach. He’s not going to be healthy enough to man the position full time but when he is feeling young, let him play. When he’s not, let him coach. This will segway nicely to his role as our hitting coach in 2014.

3. Pry Moustakas or Gordon away from KC to play 3B in 2013 on a regular basis… yes, I know we have Prado but again, I prefer him in the super utility role regardless of who is on the roster…. I would also love to give Gordon a shot to play 3B again as I think his bat would play well for us there… There’s a few other 3Bs I’d like to see but I don’t wanna turn this into a rosterbation thread. You have too much good stuff going in it…

4. LEAVE THE ROTATION ALONE… Aside from trading JJ for specs, I want to keep our rotation intact and know it will allow us to play through injuries and other unforseen obstacles. I also want Huddy at the top of it as our Vet leader.

5. Don’t resign McCann to anything more than a 4 year extension. Past that, regardless of how much I love him, we may not have anywhere to play him… Catchers just aren’t built the way they used to be. Maybe he can play the position longer, maybe not… we can just extend him again if things are going well.

6. Hire a strength and conditioning coach that will keep our guys in freakin’ shape all season… and a medic crew that will prevent things like staph infections. They are so very preventable… if we just ID them correctly and preventatively treat them.

7. Believe in Frank Wren. He will keep us competitive regardless of who our owner is. If he know’s he only has $80 mil to work w/ year in and year out…. He will give us the best team for the money. He’s shown it time and again… :-)

This post is long enough and I could keep going but I have to actually do some work. :-) thanks for the comments though. :-)

In the body of other posts, I am often admittedly high and tend to not want to edit a lot.
by willlinn on Dec 2, 2011 12:01 PM PST

if Wren gets Arenado from Colorado, I’ll give him a BJ.
by Scott Coleman on Dec 19, 2011 9:45 PM PST

by Klemson Krash on Jan 9, 2012 10:32 AM EST up reply actions  

No trade of Hoover/other for Jed Lowrie?

Or is that the forgotten #8?

http://sportsandgrits.com/

by Mr. Sanchez on Jan 9, 2012 2:16 PM EST up reply actions  

Man...

you are really letting Krash have it on the Lowrie situation. don’t worry krash, I was on the band wagon too and my soul dies a little on the inside every time Sanchez pokes at the wound.

by dcbravesfn on Jan 13, 2012 5:10 PM EST up reply actions  

It's a boring offseason,...

gotta do something. Plus, he’s a good sport and gives as good as he takes.

http://sportsandgrits.com/

by Mr. Sanchez on Jan 13, 2012 6:01 PM EST up reply actions  

Well done.

Wow, I can’t even remember the last time I Rec’d a Fanpost that wasn’t a Rosterbation or general discussion thread (or royhobbs’ special feature).

If we can land [Stephen Drew], I will give FW a bj.
~justincredubil02

by king of games on Jan 6, 2012 10:17 AM EST reply actions  

Excellent work

It’s impressive how good our team can be even though it’s pretty young. Our future is very bright.

by Braves24 on Jan 6, 2012 1:57 PM EST reply actions  

As is our present...

In the body of other posts, I am often admittedly high and tend to not want to edit a lot.
by willlinn on Dec 2, 2011 12:01 PM PST

if Wren gets Arenado from Colorado, I’ll give him a BJ.
by Scott Coleman on Dec 19, 2011 9:45 PM PST

by Klemson Krash on Jan 6, 2012 2:22 PM EST up reply actions  

To boldly go where no man has gone before.

Frank Wren..the James T. Kirk of GM’s

"People ask me what I do in winter when there's no baseball. I'll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring." Rogers Hornsby

by adc62 on Jan 6, 2012 4:05 PM EST reply actions   1 recs

...and he's always looking for "more power"

"Sir Stealth, Stay stealth.. Your a moron" (jrod1142), 12/15/11 (the epic FWren Fortitude FanPost)

by carpengui on Jan 10, 2012 11:48 AM EST up reply actions  

"I'm giving her all she's got Captain!!"

"People ask me what I do in winter when there's no baseball. I'll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring." Rogers Hornsby

by adc62 on Jan 10, 2012 12:27 PM EST up reply actions  

DAMN

We have two Arodys Vizcaino’s? One’s 21 and one’s 22!!!! Sick, who else should we clone?

by PhuckthePhillies on Jan 6, 2012 7:52 PM EST reply actions  

Haha. I was listing his age for the upcoming season. Mr. Newman was just listing his current age at the present point in time.

This is my corn. You people are guests in my corn.

by gilley on Jan 6, 2012 9:04 PM EST up reply actions  

Can we clone Chipper?

I would like him to be 22 again. We won’t have to worry about 3B for the next 15 years or so.

by rxadam on Jan 7, 2012 10:08 PM EST reply actions  

Excited for this season

This article should make all braves fans feel good about the now and the future.

by RagingFin on Jan 8, 2012 10:42 PM EST reply actions  

Rec’d :-)

~ "Life is hard, God is good and heaven is real."

by NCChopper on Jan 9, 2012 10:37 AM EST reply actions  

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