Rosterbation thread do-over
by Mr. Sanchez on Jan 18, 2012 12:42 PM EST
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God Bless You
My “Z” doesn’t work until somebody makes a post while I’m on the thread, scrolling thru that other mess and repeatedly finding nothing but the never-ending argument was getting to be a big pile of bull shit.
My biggest concern is the bench. After D Ross, we seem really questionable. Hinske doesn’t bring too much defensively. Diaz needs a rebound season. Jack Wilson is a fine defensive replacement, but brings little offensively. The 25th spot could be Sutton, Josh Wilson, Constanza, Durango, or maybe Parraz. I just don’t see much to be really comfortable about with our bench.
I think Wren made a bit of a mistake not going after a more rounded bench guy like Punto or Theriot.
"First!"...Who gives a damn if you are first
Curious about Wilson will be used… assuming best case for Tyler P.:
> pinch runner for guys like Chipper?
> pinch hitter when bullpen pitchers come up in the order? (likely)
"Sir Stealth, Stay stealth.. Your a moron" (jrod1142), 12/15/11 (the epic FWren Fortitude FanPost)
uh, that's "Jack" Wilson, in this case.
"Sir Stealth, Stay stealth.. Your a moron" (jrod1142), 12/15/11 (the epic FWren Fortitude FanPost)
I don't see that one.
Theriot doesn’t hit much and Punto barely hits at all. Theriot may be slightly above Jack Wilson on the hitting ladder, but I don’t see how Punto is. Yes, Punto looked good last year in a small 166 PA sample size, but his career slash line of .249/.325/.327 is pretty Wilsonian (Wilson’s is .266/.307/.368). And really, Theriot isn’t that much better.
Let’s face it, outside of strange situations like Ross (who I guess thinks he does better in a reserve role because of the wear and tear of everyday catching), finding someone who can hit and play defense for a bench role just doesn’t happen because those guys are starting somewhere.
It was why I wanted a Beltran or other legit LF
so Prado could bring that versatility to strengthen the bench.
And I agree, it’s got options around the board, but not strong ones (and who really does have a strong bench, maybe 1 team per year). And pinch hitting will be extremely reliant on Diaz having a good year, and Hinske, since we won’t risk Ross in that role.
http://sportsandgrits.com/
Agree
Prado being SU would be a huge upgrade. Not for him, but it would be for the team.
I’d imagine Wren will make at least a couple of moves mid-season that will bolster the bench one way or another. Plus, I don’t think it’s out of the question that Diaz might get bumped. Constanza, Durango or Parraz could replace him with a strong ST. After Kawakami, McLouth and Lowe, Wren seems pretty capable of eating salary to put better players on the field.
"First!"...Who gives a damn if you are first
I'm not high on Diaz at all
he’s getting to that age where decline comes, and his power was nonexistant last year. 2 of his last 3 years in Atlanta (08 and 2010) were also pretty awful. I’m of that same opinion where there wouldn’t be an inkling of surprise if he’s cut come opening day.
And I think bench moves are inevitable. The questions are so strong, with When’s not If’s, such as….
WHEN does Chipper go down?
WHEN does Heyward go down?
WHEN does Prado go down?
WHEN does Heap go down?
If Pastornicky can get the job done.
If Uggla can be consistent.
If Bourn can excel.
If Freeman can avoid a sophomore dip.
If the pitching staff can stay relatively healthy.
http://sportsandgrits.com/
160-2
Duh… We lose 2 games because we feel bad for Proctor at the end of the season and bring him back from Korea to start against the Phillies.
And that returns to my original point...
…players as good as Prado get starting gigs, not bench jobs. On the other hand; it really isn’t so bad; a Hinske/Diaz platoon for a month during an injury to Chipper/Prado/Heyward (they could replace any of the three) is not particularly horrible for dealing with an injury hole. With solid to good hitters at every position except SS, we can get away with that.
I think Hinske and Diaz are both getting too long in the tooth
Hinske doesn’t hit as well as he did. He still hits, just not as well, and he moves around a lot worse so that’s a big negative anywhere but 1st. As said elsewhere, I’ve got no faith of Diaz becomming an effective big leaguer again. He might have a last swan song ala Keith Lockhart or Greg Norton, but I’d hope we cut him loose before then.
http://sportsandgrits.com/
by Mr. Sanchez on Jan 19, 2012 10:24 AM EST up reply actions
They've been bench players for the better part of a decade now
those problems that have kept them from being starters, for years, are getting worse.
http://sportsandgrits.com/
Since Moylan
signed a minor league deal that keeps him off the 40 man, correct? I just checked the braves site and he’s not listed on it so thats what I’m assuming. There are 36 players listed currently. Now correct me if I’m wrong but a player has to be listed on the 40 man to be eligible to play in the Majors. If we count Moylan as 37 who else do you guys think will fill the other 3 spots?
Lead off walks usually lead to runs, unless they don't. -Joe Simpson
If you don't like the way the Atlanta Braves are playing, then you don't like baseball. -Chuck Tanner
Any idea of what our rotation will look like coming out of spring training ?
After recoveries of everyones current injuries , I would assume to at least start the year that it would look something like this ?
Hudson
Hanson
Jurrjens
Beachy
Minor
I know Wren said that he likes having a lefty in the rotation . But is there any chance of Teheran or Delgado beating him out ? Feel free to respond . I won’t belittle or disrespect you for your difference of opinion .
As it looks right now I think your right
I mean I do feel like the young guys should get a spot in the rotation, but if we don’t use Minor we might as well trade him for some AAA depth. A perennially blocked asset is good in case we have injuries, but we have a bunch more who are blocked in the MiLB who could come up. However I prefer not to trade Minor because I too like the idea of a lefty in the rotation, giving us an added dimension for teams to deal with over the course of the season. The only thing I don’t like about Minor is his HR/9 (1.1MiLB, .8MLB) and BB/9 (2.4MiLB, 3.3MLB) rate. His 1.192 WHIP in the MiLB is good, but inflated in the MLB to 1.488 (lack of starts probably a large contribution). Teheran’s numbers are good, but I think we need to see what we have in Minor or trade him from some profit.
Of course there's a chance they beat him out...
because they are extremely talented and ready. I agree with your if healthy rotation, but that’s the other key considering Hudson’s back, Hanson’s shoulder, and Jurrjens’ knee.
http://sportsandgrits.com/
Looks about right IMO.
A good strong rotation. Good mix of vets & youth. Also comes with some concerns, namely the injury history of the big 3 (Hanson-shoulder, Jurrjens-knee, Huddy-back). Heaven forbid they all go down @ the same time. Then, I’m guessing, a rotation of Beachy, Minor, Meds, Delgado, Teheran which is loaded with talent but carries the risks that is youth.
A couple of those risks being handling the pressures that is the MLB & innings caps (if the Braves do such things.) If their innings are being restricted you’re looking at going to the pen more often and overworking them.
"People ask me what I do in winter when there's no baseball. I'll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring." Rogers Hornsby
I really like Meds .
I think after seeing him pitch in 2010 , and the few innings he pitched at the end of last year , he looks like he would be a good enough pitcher to be a starter in our rotation .
Meds has impressed me as well
His 2010 was really enjoyable, and he certainly has the stuff to be a great number 4 or 5 starter for much any team. I’m just happy we have enough talent and enough depth to be able to afford putting a guy like him in our bullpen and filling that line-up spot with other young stud pitchers.
by TheMattHatter on Jan 19, 2012 2:10 PM EST up reply actions
Agreed .
The pitching depth we have is ridiculous . It’s a nice luxury to have to be able to go to your stock pile of pitchers in case of an injury . Guys like Teheran , Delgado , Medlen , Vizzy and even C-Mart would all be nice replacements . Guys like those start on other teams .
Certainly wouldn't mind seeing Meds as a starter
but for some reason I’ve always pictured him in a Moylan type role in the pen. Maybe it’s because they spent so much time hanging out together.
"People ask me what I do in winter when there's no baseball. I'll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring." Rogers Hornsby
Does anyone have any information about the innings cap that the kids might see this year? I know that Delgado and Teheran have both pitched a lot of innings, especially for their age… But what about Minor, Beachy and Meds? I wonder if those guys will have 150 or 160 IP caps and perhaps that fed into FW’s decision to not trade JJ.
You'd think I was Travis Tritt struttin my FINE ASS on down to Florida
I think I remember hearing at some point that the Braves don’t enforce any innings caps
If we can land [Stephen Drew], I will give FW a bj.
~justincredubil02
by king of games on Jan 19, 2012 10:09 AM EST up reply actions
...and Minor wouldn't really qualify
Beachy I could see on a 175-185 inning “cap”, but Fredi has to let him out of the 6th when he has 90 pitches rather than calling it a day before that cap is even a worry. Medlen is the one I’m sure they’ll be handling with the most kid-glove treatment to ensure he stays healthy.
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by ChopMaster on Jul 7, 2011 10:24 PM CDT (joined Jul 19, 2010)
Twitter: @biggentleben
by biggentleben on Jan 19, 2012 11:21 AM EST up reply actions
Yeah, they might back off guys if they seem tired, like the pen last year. But I’m pretty sure they never set any hard number for innings on anyone.
If we can land [Stephen Drew], I will give FW a bj.
~justincredubil02
by king of games on Jan 19, 2012 12:40 PM EST up reply actions
Braves had a one year offer out to Orlando Cabrera...
before he retired.
If we can land [Stephen Drew], I will give FW a bj.
~justincredubil02
Yeah, I saw that… just enough info to tease: Tim Brown didn’t say “major league offer” or when the offer was made, just that an offer existed.
"Sir Stealth, Stay stealth.. Your a moron" (jrod1142), 12/15/11 (the epic FWren Fortitude FanPost)
According to a tweet from Tim Brown at Yahoo
It was supposed to be sometime right before we signed Wilson . Sounds like it’s possible that we may have had an offer out to both at the same time . But when Cabrera did not accept , we signed Wilson .
That was kept pretty quiet.
"An insult is an insult either way you fucked up freaked out wierd people want to spin it"
PhillyBrave Jan 18, 2012
thank goodness
as a certain Brave fan from a certain North Eastern city would harp on the fact that scouts still think he can hit.
by JoelGuzman'sScout on Jan 19, 2012 12:10 PM EST up reply actions
So which pitcher would you rather have?
Outman or Balfour?
"Sir Stealth, Stay stealth.. Your a moron" (jrod1142), 12/15/11 (the epic FWren Fortitude FanPost)
Overall, absolutely Outman
If I was certainly looking for a 7th/8th inning guy, it might be a toss up, but Outman is a guy who could pitch in a variety of roles for a team with solid stuff. Balfour is as likely to put up a 2009 line as a 2010/2011 line, whereas I think Outman should be more consistently excellent.
Hey! I’m new.
by ChopMaster on Jul 7, 2011 10:24 PM CDT (joined Jul 19, 2010)
Twitter: @biggentleben
by biggentleben on Jan 19, 2012 11:25 AM EST up reply actions
"Fausto Carmona" --> Roberto Hernandez Heredia
Another identity crisis… this one involving age (31, not 28) and other legal issues. If I’m the Indians, I’d try to void the contract… even if he somehow gets out of jail and figures out how to obtain a visa to the US.
"Sir Stealth, Stay stealth.. Your a moron" (jrod1142), 12/15/11 (the epic FWren Fortitude FanPost)
I really wish they would just let them keep the old names, the new ones always seem more complicated. Why can’t it ever go from Fausto Carmona to Stan White?
If we can land [Stephen Drew], I will give FW a bj.
~justincredubil02
by king of games on Jan 19, 2012 4:07 PM EST up reply actions
I remember when Roberto Hernandez (non-Heredia variant) pitched for the Braves. Not that it’s relevant—but I remember.
by Ivan the Great on Jan 19, 2012 7:02 PM EST up reply actions
he was actually pretty good. that was a weird bullpen year if I recall. Also remember when Dennis Martinez was a Brave? lots of random pitchers coming through here over the years.
http://tarpslides-r-us.blogspot.com/
Norm Charlton was on that '98 Braves team with Martinez.
Ditto with Embree, Litenberg, Wohlers, Rocker and my favorite named Brave pitcher
Mike “don’t give me a” Cather
by JoelGuzman'sScout on Jan 20, 2012 1:36 AM EST up reply actions
At one point in 1995...
we had a Clontz, a Smoltz, and a Kowitz.
"Some people give their bodies to science. I gave mine to baseball." -- Ron Hunt
Things I would look up (relative to the upcoming season) if I had time
1. We’re expecting/hoping for “bounce-back” seasons from Heyward, Prado, McCann and Uggla to a lesser extent, Jurrjens, Hanson, and such. Historically, how realistic is that?
2. How young is the Braves team compared to others in the majors? Specifically, how about the pitching staff? Furthermore, how much younger might they be in 2013?
3. Look at the pitching staffs now assembled across the MLB and see which ones still are in most need of an upgrade (and hence might be trade partners).
4. Compare off-season acquisitions/losses for every club and try to assess who improved and who didn’t. Gut feel: the NL West improved the most as a division; the NL Central has regressed the most. Not a lot of change in the NL East. In the AL – watch out for the Rangers. Yankees look better on paper, but outperformed in 2011. Red Sox aren’t done yet.
5. Compare hitters by wRC+ over the past five years. Year-by-year, try and see what makes the grade as an “impact bat” (we talk about this a lot, but can we describe what that means?). Further, can we use such metrics as predictors of a prospect’s future?
"Sir Stealth, Stay stealth.. Your a moron" (jrod1142), 12/15/11 (the epic FWren Fortitude FanPost)
How Desperate are the Rockies for a 2nd baseman?
4:25pm: The Rockies are nearing a deal for infielder Marco Scutaro, Troy Renck of the Denver Post tweets. The teams are talking and the Rockies are trying to complete the trade. The veteran infielder would presumably play second base if the Rockies acquire him.
4:52pm: Talks are fizzling, Renck tweets. The Red Sox are reluctant to part with Scutaro, since they don’t have a clear alternative at short.
This is exactly why I was thinking “really?” when the first snippet came out. But I do have an option for the Rockies, if they would consider it…
1. Prado to Colorado, Wheeler to Atlanta along with another solid prospect.
2. Braves sign Wilson Betemit to back up Chipper Jones, saving $3.5m.
3. Braves camp on Texas’ doorstep to see what they would consider taking for Nelson Cruz (possibly somebody from Colorado in a 3-way… Blackmon?).
Cruz’s Arb midpoint is $6.5m. If he signs for that and the Rangers send over $3m, we can afford him without changing the payroll. I expect that would require a decent prospect in return from us.
"Sir Stealth, Stay stealth.. Your a moron" (jrod1142), 12/15/11 (the epic FWren Fortitude FanPost)
I’m pretty sure that the Rocks not being willing to part with just one of their CF prospects for Prado is why no deal got done before, nothing has changed since then. Certainly won’t be giving us Wheeler and Blackmon.
Q: If not us, who? If not now, when? A: The Batman. And "when you least expect it."
Could sweeten the deal by :
Prado+Spruill to the Rockies for Wheeler
the Betemit deal
Cruz to Atlanta for Minor/Hoover+Diaz
Prado is a year removed from being an all-star 2B. We shouldn’t be the ones sweetening a Prado for Wheeler deal.
Q: If not us, who? If not now, when? A: The Batman. And "when you least expect it."
Yeah
It doesn’t make much sense for us to give up that much . Well then maybe get Wheeler and whatever the Rockies GM is willing to offer as a prospect , preferably a postion player .
Prado+Spruill to the Rockies for Wheeler
laughable. for that package, Arenado better be coming back WITH an OF
Cruz to Atlanta for Minor/Hoover+Diaz
seeing that Minor is our ONLY LH projected in the rotation at the moment, he’s not getting traded. Thus, it would be Hoover and Diaz for Cruz. That’s mlbtraderumors bad.
by JoelGuzman'sScout on Jan 21, 2012 2:29 AM EST up reply actions
Really?
Anyway, Wren stated this past week that all things being equal, he would prefer to have a lefty (Minor) in the starting rotation.
"Sir Stealth, Stay stealth.. Your a moron" (jrod1142), 12/15/11 (the epic FWren Fortitude FanPost)
I heard that as well .
But I hope he isn’t just keeping him in the rotation just because he is a lefty . He still needs to produce . And if he doesn’t , I hope he looks past the whole ’ I need a lefty in the rotation " thing to give someone else a chance .
I’m not sure that all things are equal.
Sgt.: Pointed stick? Oh, oh, oh. We want to learn how to defend ourselves against pointed sticks, do we? Getting all high and mighty, eh? Fresh fruit not good enough for you eh? Well I'll tell you something my lad. When you're walking home tonight and some great homicidal maniac comes after you with a bunch of loganberries, don't come crying to me! Now, the passion fruit.
I think the issue was more that the Rockies only offered Smith and Wheeler. IIRC, we also wanted a pitching prospect in addition. The Rockies did not want to offer that.
I find that very doubtful, there was a lot of talk of the Rocks considering Wheeler “untouchable” after his showing at AA last season and, considering the strength of our pitching, it’s extra dubious that getting a pitching prospect was the hold up.
Q: If not us, who? If not now, when? A: The Batman. And "when you least expect it."
Given their need for a second baseman (and frankly, if they get one – Prado or not – they might be pretty formidable), I think they could forgo a Wheeler given that Cuddyer, Fowler, and Cargo are their big three for a while. I think we could use him a lot more than they… unless Fowler is soon to become expendable, which hasn’t been their public stance.
"Sir Stealth, Stay stealth.. Your a moron" (jrod1142), 12/15/11 (the epic FWren Fortitude FanPost)
yeah,
but that 142:59 K:BB ratio of Wheeler’s in AA does not scream “untouchable”. It screams “trade him now while he’s got inflated value”.
by JoelGuzman'sScout on Jan 22, 2012 8:10 AM EST up reply actions
I'd like to think
Wren wanted to wait till Smith was gone so the Rockies stopped bartering with him when they didn’t want him much anyway.
But they posed as though he was the piece they wanted, so they can say the trade they are going to ask for is mere consolation.
(it isn’t just about fairness, it’s abotu GMs winning and loosing to each other, you want to make the other guy feel like he’s winning—which is exactly what Wren did with the Astros)
Wait till the Rockies really need to trade for a 2B and can’t find one
Maybe even let Prado hit his ass off in the spring
Then bring back Arenado and one of their center fielders for Prado and one of our tradable prospects.
Let Constanza and Diaz platoon in Left Field?
Boston friend said that local Radio was reporting that there’s interest in Jurrjens from the Red Sox. Don’t necessarily see a match but interesting to rosterbate about. I’d take Kalish as a starting point.
Just Beachy here. How 'bout you?
He'll likely start the season out, or not 100%
…but they’re willing to trade away Reddick to make sure there’s a clear path for him to take over RF when healthy, so he’s definitely a solid bat, but that’s also exactly why I don’t see them moving him to us.
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by ChopMaster on Jul 7, 2011 10:24 PM CDT (joined Jul 19, 2010)
Twitter: @biggentleben
by biggentleben on Jan 21, 2012 8:28 AM EST up reply actions
Hence my point
“they’re willing to trade away Reddick to make sure there’s a clar path for him to take over RF when healthy” They moved Reddick to ensure there’s no debate between the two.
Hey! I’m new.
by ChopMaster on Jul 7, 2011 10:24 PM CDT (joined Jul 19, 2010)
Twitter: @biggentleben
by biggentleben on Jan 21, 2012 7:35 PM EST up reply actions
New name brought up from another blog...
Kyle Blanks? Fangraphs just did a piece about being the odd man out in SD. He’d be worth a flyer for cheap or as a throw-in on a bigger trade: Rymer Liriano and Kyle Blanks for Jurrjens. Actually, it hasnt been discussed but we match up quite well with San Diego.
Just Beachy here. How 'bout you?
I’ve actually brought him up before . Only thing about him is that he hasn’t shown to be able to hit lefties well and actually produced better in Petco than away which is weird being that Petco is a pitchers park . But in 3 years , he only has 482 PA’s . So he really hasn’t been given much of an oppurtunity . And his minor league numbers are actually pretty good with an OPS of .971 for a total in his AAA games . So who knows . He could be a sleeper .
Rymer Liriano and Kyle Blanks for Jurrjens
if that happens, the Padres are crazy.
by JoelGuzman'sScout on Jan 21, 2012 2:31 AM EST up reply actions
I've tried twice now to fix the formatting.
as you can tell, neither worked.
http://sportsandgrits.com/
Well, this is surprising...
The Rockies have acquired Marco Scutaro from the Red Sox in exchange for Clayton Mortensen, reports ESPN’s Jim Bowden (on Twitter). Troy Renck of The Denver Post first reported that the two sides were finishing up the trade.
"Sir Stealth, Stay stealth.. Your a moron" (jrod1142), 12/15/11 (the epic FWren Fortitude FanPost)
Oddly enough, this is looking like a salary dump so that the Red Sox can go buy a pitcher.
"Sir Stealth, Stay stealth.. Your a moron" (jrod1142), 12/15/11 (the epic FWren Fortitude FanPost)
I expect Oswalt to be signed w/in 24 hours…
-C
It’s rough to sit through these games and not have someone that can’t hit a Ball?
I read somewhere that the Red Sox are close to being in major trouble on the luxury tax. I didn’t follow all of the details, but the upshot is that the luxury tax percentage increases for each consecutive year a team is over the threshold, and the Red Sox have been over for the past two years. They have to get under the threshold this year to reset the clock.
"Some people give their bodies to science. I gave mine to baseball." -- Ron Hunt
It has to be a salary dump. Scutaro is worth way, way more than Mortensen. However, their moves have made them less of a match for the Braves so while they might be looking for a pitcher, I don’t think they are making any moves to lead to a Braves trade. But these kind of things can always fall into your lap so who knows. Beyond prospects (which, barring an overwhelming offer, shouldn’t be a priority of FW’s in my opinion) the Red Sox have basically given anything that the Braves might want up, and basically for peanuts.
But it does seem that the Red Sox want to add pitching, so given that JJ’s name has been bandied about in trade rumor (and GM) circles it seems silly that there wasn’t a deeper conversation between the Red Sox and the Braves earlier. I’m inclined to believe that it is because we are handing him the proverbial reins. But even so, Lowrie was gotten for almost nothing, and would be a perfect utility/contingency player. I personally love FW, but I gotta ask why he hasn’t cast the net a little wider.
Sgt.: Pointed stick? Oh, oh, oh. We want to learn how to defend ourselves against pointed sticks, do we? Getting all high and mighty, eh? Fresh fruit not good enough for you eh? Well I'll tell you something my lad. When you're walking home tonight and some great homicidal maniac comes after you with a bunch of loganberries, don't come crying to me! Now, the passion fruit.
Two things .
1) I can’t belive Cherington traded Scutaro for so little . Sounds like we wouldn’t of had to give up much at all to acquire him .
2) This would seemingly take us out of any trade what so ever with the Rockies now . And I’m not saying that as a bad thing .
A lot of Boston fans are pissed about this deal . They don’t like the fact that Aviles would seem to now be their starting SS nor the fact that they basically gave him away for a prospect pitcher who doesn’t strike out many batters and has a fairly high walk total .
Iglesias?
BoSox fans are notoriously hard on young players, but you’re talking about one of the best defenders in the league right now as he steps on the field. If he gives a little bit of offense at all, he’d WAR in the midst of the top 10-15 SS in the league. If BoSox fans truly believe Aviles is their starter now (something I’ve only seen on the ESPN boards, which would make sense there), they’ve gone loony.
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by ChopMaster on Jul 7, 2011 10:24 PM CDT (joined Jul 19, 2010)
Twitter: @biggentleben
by biggentleben on Jan 21, 2012 7:34 PM EST up reply actions
Iglesias’ offense was there selling point on their disapproval of the trade . He is major league ready on defense . But was not impressive on offense last year in his at bats on the big league squad . It could turn out to be a platoon between the two until one or the other win the starting role .
Patience
I realize that’s not something Red Sox fans have had to exhibit in a while, but iglesias has the raw tools to be a contact hitting, amazing defending shortstop. He won’t steal 50 bases or hit 20 home runs, but I could see him someday being a poor-man’s Omar Vizquel, and Vizquel’s first 1200 plate appearances (his age 22-24 seasons) produced a .230/.290/.283 line. His at bats on the big league squad were actually BETTER than his AAA at bats, but he’s a guy who doesn’t walk or strike out much, lives on contact, and suffered a BABIP about 20-30 points under what you should expect last year while in AAA. Iglesias is basically a rushed version of Andrelton Simmons, who we as Braves fans are more than willing to wait on, knowing the upside he could have.
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by ChopMaster on Jul 7, 2011 10:24 PM CDT (joined Jul 19, 2010)
Twitter: @biggentleben
by biggentleben on Jan 21, 2012 10:51 PM EST up reply actions
I don't think they were against the fact that he is still a nice prospect to have .
But compared to what they already had in Scutaro , their other options of Aviles , Punto and Iglesias were all pretty good downgrades with the bat . But with guys like Ellsbury , Ortiz and Gonzalez the offense should still be stout . And they are banking on this trade freeing up the money to sign Oswalt . And there are still several other teams who are ‘in’ on him which would add to their frustration of possibly trading their starting SS for someone who may sign with someone else . I would have personally made sure of the signing or went ahead and signed him first and went into the luxury tax to make sure it was a done deal before I made the trade .
So we could have had a solid SS...
or a solid young SS/3B, from the Red Sox, for a very low price in talent?
Ridiculous.
http://sportsandgrits.com/
I can't believe
we weren’t even in discussions at that price . We could have still started Pastornicky and had Scutaro as a backup or insurance just in case . But at 6M , they would have had to of sent some cash this way presumably to make it work .
I all for playing Pastornicky but if we could had a veteran SS who plays good defense and not terrible with the bat why not trade a BP arm for him. Are we that cheap?!
Or the Red Sox asked for the moon from us
…and they burned their bridge asking way too high on both Lowrie and Scutaro early in the offseason (one rumor out was asking for Vizcaino for Lowrie), and they never returned to re-address the issue when their price came down.
Hey! I’m new.
by ChopMaster on Jul 7, 2011 10:24 PM CDT (joined Jul 19, 2010)
Twitter: @biggentleben
by biggentleben on Jan 21, 2012 10:53 PM EST up reply actions
Or we realize that certain players have certain expectations. We have already anointed Pastornicky SS for 2012, and hiring Scutaro is bound to shake his confidence that SS is firmly his.
Sgt.: Pointed stick? Oh, oh, oh. We want to learn how to defend ourselves against pointed sticks, do we? Getting all high and mighty, eh? Fresh fruit not good enough for you eh? Well I'll tell you something my lad. When you're walking home tonight and some great homicidal maniac comes after you with a bunch of loganberries, don't come crying to me! Now, the passion fruit.
It really kinda sucks that we can provide the Red Sox’s pitching need when they can provide all sorts of value at SS/inside utility and we watched two great deals pass by.
Sgt.: Pointed stick? Oh, oh, oh. We want to learn how to defend ourselves against pointed sticks, do we? Getting all high and mighty, eh? Fresh fruit not good enough for you eh? Well I'll tell you something my lad. When you're walking home tonight and some great homicidal maniac comes after you with a bunch of loganberries, don't come crying to me! Now, the passion fruit.
this may not yet be done.
They clearly want Oswalt – they’ve been talking to him the entire off-season. But the report today is that they also want (need) a Cody Ross for the outfield. It’s also clear that they are trying to keep the money under control (the Scutaro deal made that much clear).
Oswalt could cost them $10m (though others suspect a lot less… $7-8m). Cody Ross? I’m guessing $5m (+/-). David Ortiz and the Red Sox are $4m apart on their arb numbers. They’ve also been linked to Wandy, but if money is an issue, then Wandy won’t work… and JJ is certainly better than Wandy.
Obviously, JJ would cost them a lot less… $5.5m. My question is whether they would offer enough to make Frank part with our “injury buffer”. I bet they wish the Ortiz arbitration hearing was tomorrow… that way they’d have a lot better information.
"Sir Stealth, Stay stealth.. Your a moron" (jrod1142), 12/15/11 (the epic FWren Fortitude FanPost)
I referenced bot of them .
Neither one really blew me out of the water . Bogaerts looks ok . But hard to tell . Neither has a large enough sample size in the minors .
hmmmm
If I were the Braves, I’d have to seriously think about a Xander Bogaerts + Garin Cecchini for JJ deal. They’re both a while away, and I know that Wren wants an OF for JJ, but that package would be awesome.
by JoelGuzman'sScout on Jan 23, 2012 8:13 AM EST up reply actions
That’s my thing. They had a lot to offer us two trades ago, but now it’s all prospects, and almost none that are known entities.
Sgt.: Pointed stick? Oh, oh, oh. We want to learn how to defend ourselves against pointed sticks, do we? Getting all high and mighty, eh? Fresh fruit not good enough for you eh? Well I'll tell you something my lad. When you're walking home tonight and some great homicidal maniac comes after you with a bunch of loganberries, don't come crying to me! Now, the passion fruit.
I'm not sure on Wandy v. Jair
At least in the Red Sox case…
Their current rotation is headed by lester, but then they have no more lefties in their rotation, and with the stadiums of their opponents well suited for lefty hitters, it makes sense to have a second lefty in the rotation, hence Wandy. I don’t see Andrew Miller as anything resembling a starting pitcher, so I’d not consider him as that second lefty. Wandy is coming off of three 190+ IP seasons where he’s accumulated 9.1 fWAR. Compare that to Jurrjens last three seasons where he’s cleared 155 IP only once and accumulated 6.6 fWAR. Wandy’s xFIP is better each season of the last three along with an ~8 k/9 compared to Jurrjens’ ~6 k/9. If I’m the Red Sox, and the trade price (in dollars and prospects) are similar, I’m after Wandy instead. That said, they’ve gone to the Houston well already this offseason, so if they wanted to get Wandy, why wouldn’t they have struck for him then?
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by ChopMaster on Jul 7, 2011 10:24 PM CDT (joined Jul 19, 2010)
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by biggentleben on Jan 23, 2012 12:14 AM EST up reply actions
You’re probably right on “if” they were going to go after Wandy then why didn’t they do that when they traded Lawrie . I think they are pretty strapped for cash right now and are trying to stay under the luxury tax . If they could afford him somehow , then they would probably prefer Wandy over Jair . But with Jair making almost half of what Wandy is making this year , Jair may be the better option .
Good post, didn’t see that when I posted a similar sentiment selow (fabricated alliteration is fun too
Sgt.: Pointed stick? Oh, oh, oh. We want to learn how to defend ourselves against pointed sticks, do we? Getting all high and mighty, eh? Fresh fruit not good enough for you eh? Well I'll tell you something my lad. When you're walking home tonight and some great homicidal maniac comes after you with a bunch of loganberries, don't come crying to me! Now, the passion fruit.
According to the times
you beat me to it by 1 minute . You probably type faster than I do too . Oh well .
Great minds think alike .
The problem is that Wandy is $10 mill for 2012 and $13 mill for 2013. If the Red Sox have any hopes of staying below the luxury tax then Wandy is not a feasible option because he is way more expensive than other options. Hence why JJ is so perfect. You can hope for incredible performance and settle for good performance all at a good value. Certainly worth more than the pennies they’ve been getting for Scutaro and Lowrie, and definitely worth trading for as the top priority. The thing is that the market is limited, and JJ is a pretty damn good bet.
Sgt.: Pointed stick? Oh, oh, oh. We want to learn how to defend ourselves against pointed sticks, do we? Getting all high and mighty, eh? Fresh fruit not good enough for you eh? Well I'll tell you something my lad. When you're walking home tonight and some great homicidal maniac comes after you with a bunch of loganberries, don't come crying to me! Now, the passion fruit.
That's why I said
If the price was equal in dollars and prospects, they’d prefer Wandy, but I cannot see that happening as I just don’t see a good match for the Braves right now without getting very good upside guys like Bogaerts.
Hey! I’m new.
by ChopMaster on Jul 7, 2011 10:24 PM CDT (joined Jul 19, 2010)
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by biggentleben on Jan 23, 2012 5:44 AM EST up reply actions
the issue
is that Scutaro isn’t necessarily a “solid SS”.
by JoelGuzman'sScout on Jan 22, 2012 8:11 AM EST up reply actions
Are you saying that Scutaro isn’t particularly good—or that he is much better than solid? I tend to think the latter.
Hmmmm
I think the Boston media has hurt your opinion. Scutaro is an average defender who is 36 years old this season and is a .280/.340/.400 guy. Bill James projections (which are usually on the optimistic side) say .271/.341/.378 next season, though those number haven’t been changed for Coors, but I don’t see him as more than solid for sure, and especially not at SS. At 2B, I’d consider him above average, but 2B is also getting to be a deep position of very talented players, so he may not make league average at 2B, but would be such at SS.
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by ChopMaster on Jul 7, 2011 10:24 PM CDT (joined Jul 19, 2010)
Twitter: @biggentleben
by biggentleben on Jan 23, 2012 12:23 AM EST up reply actions
yes, but we're not talking about Scutaro from 5 years ago
Marco’s decent, but there are many reasons why he’ll be playing 2B in Colorado (that have nothing to do with Tulo).
by JoelGuzman'sScout on Jan 23, 2012 8:14 AM EST up reply actions
I’m just looking at his fWAR over the past few seasons, and he had 2.9 last year in 2/3 of a season which would come out at around 4.0 over 150 games. Combined with the 4.5 that he put up in ‘09, he comes out to be a well above average SS the past 3 seasons. I don’t think it would be too much of a stretch to expect a 3 WAR season as a SS or closer to 4.0 as a 2B.
Well having suffered through a season of AGONizing offense Scutaro’s numbers would seem Ruthian to me. I bet that Scutaro has at least as good of a season as Pastornicky, probably better (his defensive might still be better- Pastornicky’s defense scares me personally- and I think his offense is better still) and imagine the kind of things that he could teach Pastornicky after 10 years of ML experience.
Sgt.: Pointed stick? Oh, oh, oh. We want to learn how to defend ourselves against pointed sticks, do we? Getting all high and mighty, eh? Fresh fruit not good enough for you eh? Well I'll tell you something my lad. When you're walking home tonight and some great homicidal maniac comes after you with a bunch of loganberries, don't come crying to me! Now, the passion fruit.
The last line
I would absolutely agree with. He’s going to be on the decline, certainly, but what he would teach Pastornicky about the game just by being a veteran presence would be valuable, but I’m not sure the value in that would be worth a solid prospect in return, though we’ve got a boatload of Mortensen types that I’d have been fine with seeing in Boston this year.
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by ChopMaster on Jul 7, 2011 10:24 PM CDT (joined Jul 19, 2010)
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by biggentleben on Jan 23, 2012 5:47 AM EST up reply actions
Scutaro
I remember when several posters here were calling for a JJ for Scutaro trade……smh.
MLBTR says Bourn would probably accept 5 year $50 Million extension
It would be a good point to start the discussion. What do you think it would take to sign him, and would the Braves be interested? Given that Juan Pierre declined rapidly over a short period of time after signing his extension with the Dodgers.
I'd start with
4 years at $38M . I’m sure it will go up from there . But to me that would be a realistic figure to start with . For a limit , I wouldn’t go any more than a 5 year for $55M with the 3rd year being the peak in salary and then each year afterwards declining each year .
That sounds reasonable
I’m thinking something like:
2013 — 10M
2014 — 11M
2015 — 12M
2016 — 9M base with 3M in incentives
2017 — club option for 8M base with 4M in incentives, automatically vests if >450 AB in 2016
"Some people give their bodies to science. I gave mine to baseball." -- Ron Hunt
I think that would be fair for both sides
Boras has to realize that if Hamilton, Upton, and Maybin hit the market along with Bourn his value will decline. Also, since Bourn’s game is speed (which declines rapidly over time), Boras can’t expect to land a 5 year guaranteed contract. I just hope the Braves realize we have no one that in the minors that will be ready to take over CF next year, and that we must sign one of these free agents to be competitive.
Hamilton and Upton may very well end up with extensions this year . Maybin may be the only exception .
The Padres love Maybin
I’d not be surprised if they get an extension done with him before either of Hamilton/Upton gets an extension.
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by ChopMaster on Jul 7, 2011 10:24 PM CDT (joined Jul 19, 2010)
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by biggentleben on Jan 23, 2012 12:16 AM EST up reply actions
You could be right about Maybin .
I think with Hamilton , they are waiting to see what happens with Fielder . I read somewhere that if they can’t sign Fielder they were planning on locking up Hamilton . As far as Upton , there may or may not be talks going on yet . But there has been rumors .
Hamilton is balls deep in Texas Rangers culture. Imagine that you are given a chance to succeed despite what many consider to be a defect (and if you believe in AA creed then you probably agree) and in fact are given special considerations to help you do with those parameters in mind. Combine that (which Hamilton can’t help but think worked well considering his success and the before and after) with the throw to the stands accidental-death thingy and I think that Hamilton is emotionally invested in the franchise. Out of the people you listed, Hamilton is most emotionally invested in his team, giving him the least leverage in a potential free-agent market. I think Hamilton gets extended.
Sgt.: Pointed stick? Oh, oh, oh. We want to learn how to defend ourselves against pointed sticks, do we? Getting all high and mighty, eh? Fresh fruit not good enough for you eh? Well I'll tell you something my lad. When you're walking home tonight and some great homicidal maniac comes after you with a bunch of loganberries, don't come crying to me! Now, the passion fruit.
Maybin seems to like it San Diego as well . And they seem to like him . Upton may be the one who will try his hand in FA . He has been rumored in trade talks the last several years and may hold that against the Rays wether they try and extend him or not .
Here is a question . If we can’t sign or extend Bourn and for some reason we sign Upton (who has been linked to us on many occasions) , who bats leadoff ? Do we try Pastornicky there or move Prado back in the leadoff spot where he did so well before ?
It really depends, because of course we haven’t seen TP’s MLB numbers. If we have Bourn then he is leading off almost regardless because that’s his thing. For the same philosophical reasons that Chipper has batted 3rd even when it isn’t strategically smart, Bourn, if extended, will bat lead-off. However, Bourn’s OB skills are not fantastic (but are good, especially when combined with his speed and base-running skills) but the fact remains, if he is on the Braves club he is the anointed lead-off man.
However, Pastornicky does have speed. I’m not sure that it’s spectacular by lead-off standards, but it is a plus. If he can show some OB skills at the major league level his lack of slugging makes him an obvious choice for either 1st, 8th, or possible 2nd- I’m thinking 3 years into a future of 1. Bourn 2. Pastornicky 3. Freeman 4/5/6 Heyward/Uggla/McCann in almost any order.
Prado really shouldn’t be batting lead-off in any situation. His baserunning isn’t spectacular, his speed isn’t great, and while he can hit for a high BA, his OB skills are mediocre. I’m not totally convinced that Pastornicky can do much better, but Prado really shouldn’t be the answer.
Sgt.: Pointed stick? Oh, oh, oh. We want to learn how to defend ourselves against pointed sticks, do we? Getting all high and mighty, eh? Fresh fruit not good enough for you eh? Well I'll tell you something my lad. When you're walking home tonight and some great homicidal maniac comes after you with a bunch of loganberries, don't come crying to me! Now, the passion fruit.
All good points , but
The question was “If we cannot sign or extend Bourn (if he goes to another team) , then who bats leadoff?” Given the roster the way it is right now . And I personally see us trying to sign Upton if Bourn leaves given that our internal options aren’t ready yet . So if Bourn is gone and we sign Upton to take his place , with Prado and Pastornicky being the only real two options , who bats leadoff . (I’m not taking into consideration who will replace Prado in LF . I just don’t see us adding a leadoff kind of batter in that position , LF .)
If Pastornicky pans out then he could bat lead-off because he does have speed and his slugging percentage would almost be a burden anywhere else. But to be honest with so much payroll upheaval in the next view years I’m not sure that I can fully predict that. If we don’t sign Bourn then we have ~$12 mill from Chipper which can easily turn into one elite player or two good players or any combination thereof depending on how we acquire them.
Pastornicky could be a viable lead-off man in the future for the reasons outlined above (goodish speed, bad power) but I hope that he isn’t our best candidate because even if he pans out in 2012, I don’t think his high upside numbers even warrant a spot at the top of the order. But I’d love for TP to prove me wrong in a big way.
Sgt.: Pointed stick? Oh, oh, oh. We want to learn how to defend ourselves against pointed sticks, do we? Getting all high and mighty, eh? Fresh fruit not good enough for you eh? Well I'll tell you something my lad. When you're walking home tonight and some great homicidal maniac comes after you with a bunch of loganberries, don't come crying to me! Now, the passion fruit.
Just wondering cause
I know that he has shown the ability in the minors to keep his strikeouts low and his OBP fairly high . And he may one day still develop some power . He’s 22 and is almost 6 foot . So he still has some growing to do .
At 22
most people aren’t gaining much more height…just saying
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by ChopMaster on Jul 7, 2011 10:24 PM CDT (joined Jul 19, 2010)
Twitter: @biggentleben
by biggentleben on Jan 23, 2012 5:50 AM EST up reply actions
I'm not a minor league prospect
nor a professional athlete . But at age 22 (I’m also 5’11") I was around 180lbs. and had just started a job that required continuos body movement for sometimes up to 10 hours straight . And although I didn’t get any taller , I did however start gaining more muscle mass . By my 23rd birthday , I was around 193-195lbs. . And the last year that I worked that job which was a year and a half after my 23rd birthday , my final weight ended up around 208lbs. .
Wether he puts on weight in the gym is obviously up to him . But at almost 6ft. tall , I could see him adding on some more weight over the next few years . I think Heyward , Freeman and the other young guys on the team will all add some weight and muscle mass over the next several years .
Agreed...
all can and should get stronger as they age. I think some of the questions about Pastornicky’s arm strength, although it’ll probably never be considered near a Simmons, etc, but it can improve as he gets older and gets stronger in his lower body and his core.
http://sportsandgrits.com/
by Mr. Sanchez on Jan 23, 2012 10:01 AM EST up reply actions
Yeah
I’m not saying he wouldn’t get bigger. I meant he wouldn’t get taller :p
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by ChopMaster on Jul 7, 2011 10:24 PM CDT (joined Jul 19, 2010)
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by biggentleben on Jan 23, 2012 10:40 AM EST up reply actions
Whoops!
should be in response to bravesdude
Hey! I’m new.
by ChopMaster on Jul 7, 2011 10:24 PM CDT (joined Jul 19, 2010)
Twitter: @biggentleben
by biggentleben on Jan 23, 2012 10:41 AM EST up reply actions
He doesn’t have to get any taller . He’s listed as 175lbs. and almost 6 foot tall . At that height , he could easily stand to add some weight and strength .
I haven’t seen his swing . But according to his stats , he usually makes contact . If he can spend some time working out in the gym and add some muscle mass then maybe we’ll see him hit 15-20 HR’s in the years that follows .
I'm the guy who has a Fanshot on baseball weightlifting
…so I’m very familiar about his ability to bulk up. You were saying he still had room to grow, which is usually something said about a 16 y/o prospect that refers to muscle and height both. That’s why I mentioned it.
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by ChopMaster on Jul 7, 2011 10:24 PM CDT (joined Jul 19, 2010)
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by biggentleben on Jan 23, 2012 5:02 PM EST up reply actions
True
…but they’re still not getting taller :p
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by ChopMaster on Jul 7, 2011 10:24 PM CDT (joined Jul 19, 2010)
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by biggentleben on Jan 23, 2012 10:20 PM EST up reply actions
I don’t believe the Braves have written off the possibility of Mycal Jones or Todd Cunningham being ML ready CFs come 2013. Jones is going to be in Gwinnett and Cunningham in Mississippi this upcoming season. Both will likely be batting at the top of their respective teams’ lineup. Either or both could have a breakout season.
I think the reality of Bourn is greater than the potential upside of either. Keeping Bourn gives the opportunity to allow those guys to prove their value and earn some dividends in a trade.
Sgt.: Pointed stick? Oh, oh, oh. We want to learn how to defend ourselves against pointed sticks, do we? Getting all high and mighty, eh? Fresh fruit not good enough for you eh? Well I'll tell you something my lad. When you're walking home tonight and some great homicidal maniac comes after you with a bunch of loganberries, don't come crying to me! Now, the passion fruit.
No doubt, but there is the Boras factor vs. the Braves’ obvious plan (until a new owner with deeper pockets arrives on our scene, if ever) to continue working within a tight budget and looking to get younger and more athletic, while focusing on the pitching staff. And, Bourn’s potential also includes significant downside regression over the next 4-5 years. So, my belief is FW will likely let him walk and either one of the kids comes on and gets a legit shot, or he goes searching for another solution.
I’m with you. The Braves don’t have anything great in the pipeline for CF. And given the scarcity of overwhelming talent in CF Bourn is a pretty good investment. But keep in mind the Braves haven’t seen Bourn play a full season in an Atlanta jersey. And while that doesn’t change a thing, from a negotiation stand point that is a very intuitive and persuasive point. So if I’m the Braves I start at 3 years with an additional option and agree to 4 years for about 40 million with an option.
Sgt.: Pointed stick? Oh, oh, oh. We want to learn how to defend ourselves against pointed sticks, do we? Getting all high and mighty, eh? Fresh fruit not good enough for you eh? Well I'll tell you something my lad. When you're walking home tonight and some great homicidal maniac comes after you with a bunch of loganberries, don't come crying to me! Now, the passion fruit.
and if that happened, which (as indicated above) I believe is unlikley, unless Bourn puts his foot down and insists he wants to play for the Braves and make Atlanta his home, Boras says No, not interested, not happening, we will wait for the market to develop and then test it out.
and it looks like Mike Axisa of mlbtraderumors.com also questions whether the Braves are able or inclined to make a serious effort at locking him up:
It’s worth noting that Bourn is a Scott Boras client, and earlier this month we heard that the two sides had not yet begun discussions about an extension. … [a] five-year, $50MM extension would make sense for both Bourn and the Braves. Atlanta lacks a long-term center field solution in their farm system, but luckily they already have one of the game’s best players at the position in the prime of his career at the big league level. Whether they try to keep him beyond this season is another matter.
(Emphasis in bold supplied)
Like Uggla though
Bourn is in his prime now. Extend him, and you are paying for his declining years.
http://sportsandgrits.com/
I agree
but that doesn’t mean he can’t be a productive player. I don’t see a reason why he couldn’t keep up this production for the next three or four years.
But for a cost conscious team
that will have to be paying raises to Heyward, Freeman, Kimbrel, Venters, etc at that time, is it worth it?
http://sportsandgrits.com/
yes
considering we don’t have any internal options right now, especially if we could get him for 4yrs, 40M
But we do...
Myke Jones is possible. A trade of a SP could also bring back a CF.
http://sportsandgrits.com/
I love me some Myke Jones but...
he has to stay healthy for a full season before we even think about starting him in CF
True, but...
things can change a lot in a year. Recall that at this time a year ago, few people took Joey T. seriously as a prospect.
"Some people give their bodies to science. I gave mine to baseball." -- Ron Hunt
That’s generally when you get to some of the top talent. I think Bourn will still be good in 4/5 years at least. Signing him long term also solves a bunch of future questions for the Braves and provides some certainty in a position that’s been weak for the Braves ever since Andruw.
Sgt.: Pointed stick? Oh, oh, oh. We want to learn how to defend ourselves against pointed sticks, do we? Getting all high and mighty, eh? Fresh fruit not good enough for you eh? Well I'll tell you something my lad. When you're walking home tonight and some great homicidal maniac comes after you with a bunch of loganberries, don't come crying to me! Now, the passion fruit.
3:59pm: The Braves aren’t among the finalists for Ross, David O’Brien of the Atlanta Journal Constitution tweets.
I hope the rumors arent true that C. Ross just signed with the Red Sox for 1/3 million. If so, I’m going to be sick. Would have been a great guy to have with all the incredible lefties we have to face in the NL East. Surely we could have afforded him at that price.
Just Beachy here. How 'bout you?
Andruw Jones made so much sense for the Braves
I know it’s irrelevant now, but……
1. He hits lefties, which the Braves need.
2. Can play all 3 outfield positions competently and is a plus defender on the corners.
3. Prado could move to 3B on days when a lefty starter is opposing them. Chipper’s been declining from the right-side more than the left, so this would’ve improved the defense at 3B and LF, given Chipper some rest, and added a bat that’s very productive against these tough lefties in the NL.
4. Quality insurance in the event Prado, Chipper, or Heyward go down with injury.
Coming into the off-season, Jones made more sense to me(given the Braves budget restrictions) than any player on the market. I like Hinske, but I was hoping they would decline his option and go after Andruw. Not saying he would’ve signed with the Braves for around the same as he did with the Yankees, it just would’ve been a nice fit at around $3M.
He is a better version of what we have in Diaz unfortunately
Sgt.: Pointed stick? Oh, oh, oh. We want to learn how to defend ourselves against pointed sticks, do we? Getting all high and mighty, eh? Fresh fruit not good enough for you eh? Well I'll tell you something my lad. When you're walking home tonight and some great homicidal maniac comes after you with a bunch of loganberries, don't come crying to me! Now, the passion fruit.
What we've got...
Bourn
Heyward
Chipper
McCann
Uggla
Freeman
Prado
Pastornicky
That’s my noncreative lineup, the first twist I would add is that I would switch Prado and Heyward against lefties so the rhp faces three lefties to start the game and a lhp faces two righties. Uggla and McCann will flip around I am sure.
Bench
Hinske
Ross
Wilson
Diaz
Constanza
Diaz could be beaten out in theory by sutton, who would be a back up infielder as well as of, he also has more power and speed. I suspect he will stay in a starting role to be ready to step n for pastornicky if he fails. If he proves he is going to succeed, And sutton is hittng well, i expect him to be brought up. Constanza is our best backup cf and he was phenomenal last year. I see him as a shoe in. He hits from the opposite side of the plate as Diaz, his bench compliment, and he hits for high average, can reach on an infield hit and can pinch run. We need that on the bench, and the backup cf role is the place we can fit it in anyway. He has earned it. It is however possible that we decide to go w a standout corner outfielder and let Heyward emergency backup bourn if spring performances inspire such a move. I think Constanza will hit and hustle his ass off onto the team.
Rotation
Hanson
Jj
Beachy
minor
Teheran
Hudson will miss one game, and Teheran will get the satisfaction of making the team out of spring training. I prefer minor get sent down, I suspect it will be teheran, or an early trade of jj will have occurred. Most likely Teheran starts the season w the team, gets sent down for Hudson, is forced to wait till a trade or injury, then comes back refusing to be sent back down. Of course he may do that this spring. Btw, this st is going to be electric w Delgado, medlen, minor, Teheran, and vizcaino fighting for a spot, beachy fighting to prove he his past that struggle, and gilmartin fighting to prove he belongs in the conversation. Love it…
Pen
Kimbrel
Venters
Oflarity
Vizcaino
Medlen
Martinez
Gilmartin or a ground ball specialist
I think only the last spot should even be open, and it is going to be hard for someone to neat gilmartin as the ground ball specialist
That’s my vision of the part line gameplan I expect and look forward to
↑
How can you claim to be such an intellectual giant and continuously misspell “O’Flaherty” in every post?
Yeah, well, you know, that's just, like, uh, your opinion, man. -The Dude
Haha
I am completely spelling ld, I respell his name like 5 times each time, and I never wanna look it up for some reason. That said, I don’t think spelling has anything to do w being ntellectual, in fact the opposite, I believe. caring about spelling is a waste normally. Though when it’s a players name I shouldn’t be so lazy, especially when he is e first guy to make 70 appearances w a sub 1 era ever
not important at all..
except that proper spelling and grammar tends to help the rest of us comprehend whatever point you are attempting to make.
Except proving you can spell...
and ensuring accurate communication, but other than that, spelling is not impotent.
http://sportsandgrits.com/
by Mr. Sanchez on Jan 24, 2012 4:22 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
oh, now this is interesting...
The Braves had to wait until recently to re-sign Jack Wilson since many of the club’s offseason trade talks involved a starting or backup shortstop, writes MLB.com’s Mark Bowman.
Add this to my file of ‘Questions I would ask Frank Wren if I could’: So Frank — um, do the Red Sox just not like us at all??
"Sir Stealth, Stay stealth.. Your a moron" (jrod1142), 12/15/11 (the epic FWren Fortitude FanPost)
Honestly. Maybe FW just figures that they might just be holding on to Scutaro and Lowrie for us until trade-deadline time.
Sgt.: Pointed stick? Oh, oh, oh. We want to learn how to defend ourselves against pointed sticks, do we? Getting all high and mighty, eh? Fresh fruit not good enough for you eh? Well I'll tell you something my lad. When you're walking home tonight and some great homicidal maniac comes after you with a bunch of loganberries, don't come crying to me! Now, the passion fruit.
Most boring offseason ever
Freeman isn’t on Heyward’s level in terms of tools, skills, or baseball IQ–but it’s fair to say Freeman has failed to meet the modest expectations in place for him - Capitol Avenue Club (May 28th, 2011)
Not only that
But looks like our window for opportunity may be over. While the Phils may hit a decline, things certainly didn’t get better for us when Miami and the Nats both vastly improved. Surely we’ll have a winning season, but competing against these guys for the next 4-5 years, with those heavy contracts they’ve acquired, won’t be easy.
"NLDS or bust" - Bobby Cox
We don't have to continue to settle Atlanta. We're better than that.
We have a lower payroll, better pitching staff, better farm system, and possibly a better offense than both of those teams. All of that and we have no bad contract on the team after this season. If anything they should be worried about us for the next 10 years.
If we can land [Stephen Drew], I will give FW a bj.
~justincredubil02
by king of games on Jan 24, 2012 3:01 PM EST up reply actions
If you don't think
We don’t have a better offense than the Marlins. We don’t have a better staff than the Phils and its debatable with the Nats.
If you think we have the division in-hand, you’re fooling yourself.
"NLDS or bust" - Bobby Cox
We don't have to continue to settle Atlanta. We're better than that.
You’re obviously not factoring in bullpens.
If we can land [Stephen Drew], I will give FW a bj.
~justincredubil02
by king of games on Jan 24, 2012 3:08 PM EST up reply actions
We had the best in the game last year and look what happened
I love getting rid of Lowe. It was mandatory. What I don’t love is that it was our biggest move of the offseason. The Nats have a potentially scary staff. The Marlins look dangerous as well, and we can’t completely forget about the defending champs.
Just because we have a good bullpen does not mean we have the upperhand.
"NLDS or bust" - Bobby Cox
We don't have to continue to settle Atlanta. We're better than that.
The Marlins are not as good as you think .
There offense was already pretty good before they signed Reyes . But they have guys who seem to be injured quite frequently in Reyes and Ramirez . Johnson will be a huge if this year after coming back from a major injury . Nobody knows how Ramirez is going to react to life at 3rd . And they traded for a guy in Heath bell who hasn’t really dominated the NL East (other than Philly) . With all those egos , and then MR Bighead himself in Guillen , they are a reality show in the making . I don’t see them doing any better than 4th in the division ahead of the Mets . But they will stay fairly close to the Nats for a while though .
"our window for opportunity may be over"
have you been getting in to willin’s stuff? For someone like Hudson and Chipper, and if our team was full of aging stars like that, maybe. But we’ve got a not yet near their prime years core of Heyward, Freeman, Kimbrel, Venters, Hudson, Beachy, Minor, and several others. Also, in their prime years of McCann, perhaps Bourn, and Prado. The window is still wide open for this team with the extreme amount of young talent here in Freeman, Heyward, and the pitchers.
http://sportsandgrits.com/
I think he is reading into too much of the Marlins making theit acquisitions
as so much of an improvement just because they have made some moves . We were on pace to win at the least 95 games last year . And we very well could have won 100+ if JJ and Hanson would have stayed healthy all year and players such as Heyward , Prado , McCann and Uggla would not have struggled . And then you have A-Gon whos defense was great but whos offense was just down right awful . We are still , as a whole , a much better team than the Marlins and Nats and possibly even the Phillies at this point without really doing anything this offseason .
People look at the moves those two teams made and forget how much ground they actually need to make up to catch the Phillies and Braves. And with our youth and depth, I’d say thay make up that ground on the Phillies before the Braves.
If we can land [Stephen Drew], I will give FW a bj.
~justincredubil02
by king of games on Jan 24, 2012 4:37 PM EST up reply actions
Conversely though
Braves fans keep saying well if this and if that, when in baseball, the ifs always happen. We can’t expect things to improve just because if they’re healthy, or if they bounce back, the record would be xx-xx. If one is healthy, another is likely to get hurt. If one returns to form, another is likely to lose it. No one has a season play out perfectly as desired.
http://sportsandgrits.com/
Another slight at somebody who is a "non regular"
By comparing me to somebody else who you think is an irrational poster.
Here are some facts for you Sanchez. This franchise hasn’t gotten out of the first round of the playoffs in ten years. There was ample chances throughout the decade for them to get out of the divisional rounds, with the only pass being the 09 team and their rash of injuries. Through those ten years, we’ve seen the likes of Furcal, Giles, Francouer, and Mccann all put up great years, to just name a few.
This pass of young talent is not the first time we’ve had this happen. I would say this year we would have our stiffest competition within the division. We are relying on Hanley to have another down year and for Reyes to re injure himself? Come on.
Here is another fact: No team has ever immediately recovered following an epic collapse, especially when the Manager is retained.
All I’m saying is we’ve seen this story before. Don’t be blinded.
"NLDS or bust" - Bobby Cox
We don't have to continue to settle Atlanta. We're better than that.
by DopeFalcons on Jan 24, 2012 5:41 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
See the comment you are responding to
blind wouldn’t be the word, as I acknowledge the potential for underwhelming results. And the willin comment was a joke man. Haha, a joke. The idea that a “window is closing” when we have a plethora of young talent entering their prime is ridiculous and a misuse of the phrase imo.
Hanley, I wouldn’t rely on. But Reyes missing 30-40+ games, I think that’s damn near a certainty like it is for Chipper.
http://sportsandgrits.com/
I responded to this purposely
I didn’t want to double comment. All I’m saying is we’ve had the same influx of young talent that wielded no results only this time there are three other similarly talented teams in the division, whereas back then the Braves were all but a lock for the division.
"NLDS or bust" - Bobby Cox
We don't have to continue to settle Atlanta. We're better than that.
by DopeFalcons on Jan 24, 2012 5:55 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Understood
although I think the current young and incoming crop is the best we’ve had rise up through the ranks.
http://sportsandgrits.com/
And neither the Malins or Nats are “similarly talented” to the Braves. They closed the gap a bit, but they both still have a long way to go.
If we can land [Stephen Drew], I will give FW a bj.
~justincredubil02
by king of games on Jan 24, 2012 6:01 PM EST up reply actions
Take off the Braves shades
As I mentioned earlier, the Nats have a similar rotation and a good lineup if Werth and Harper contribute. Miami is also deep in starting pitching and have a decent lineup. And once again you fail to mention the defending champs, who still have their dominant trio.
To say they’re " a ways away" from catching us as if we are some all star team is ridiculous.
"NLDS or bust" - Bobby Cox
We don't have to continue to settle Atlanta. We're better than that.
by DopeFalcons on Jan 24, 2012 6:09 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
I might agree
on the Nats somewhat closing the gap and having a similar rotation . But the Marlins rotation deep ? After Johnson (who is a big question mark this year after a major injury) and Buerhle , they really don’t have anyone strong enough to touch our rotation , much less the Phillies or Nats . Sanchez is too streaky . As well as Nolasco . And Zambrano has been pretty bad of late as well . And it’s not like the Marlins have a Teheran or Delgado that can just insert into the rotation if Johnson or anyone of the others get injured .
They have...
Brad Hand as there sixth arm lol…
W-L 1-8 ERA 4.20 BB 35 k 38 in 60 IP
The Marlins needed to sign Pujols, Wilson and the whole Mets Roster to catch up… MAYBE
Even if everything went perfect for the Marlins and everyone stays healthy, bounces back, etc. They’re maybe what 10-12 wins better than last year? That still doesn’t catch the Braves at last years underachieving win total.
If we can land [Stephen Drew], I will give FW a bj.
~justincredubil02
by king of games on Jan 24, 2012 5:52 PM EST up reply actions
We also have a better ranked minor league system...
http://www.minorleagueball.com/2012/1/23/2728027/2012-baseball-farm-system-rankings-prospects
Braves ranked 8th (with mostly high ranked pitching prospects)
Washinton ranked 14th
Philadelphia ranked 24th
Miami ranked 29th LOL
Exactly .
Out of those teams mentioned , the Nats are really the only other team that may have enough depth to be able to keep up with the Braves in case of injuries .
Nats
are probably looking at a 3rd place finish for the next few years even WITH Harper and Strasberg healthy…
Exact same thing can be said with the Braves
1st-3rd might be interchangeable, all depending on who gets hot at the end of the year.
"NLDS or bust" - Bobby Cox
We don't have to continue to settle Atlanta. We're better than that.
"Exact same thing can be said with the Braves"
I think there will be a shift of power over the next few years . But chances are , you are looking at the Philies being the ones to drop down to 3rd in the division probably in 2013 or 2014 .
The braves have very few holes going forward in the future . The rotation , bullpen , 1st , RF , C , 2nd are positions that the Braves shouldn’t have to worry about for the next 4 or 5 years .
Constanza splits...
I couldn’t find Jose’s splits for the minors but in the short time he was up with the Bravo’s he hit better against Lefties than he did against Righties. Somewhere around .380 vs.270 Just for the record.
Also
If Matty D doesn’t produce in the spring I look for him to be let go. He’s looked to have hit a serious decline and I’ve never been a fan of his 2M that we’d be paying for this season.
"NLDS or bust" - Bobby Cox
We don't have to continue to settle Atlanta. We're better than that.
Except as tight budget wise as we are, if dumping him was an option, wouldn't we have added competition for his job?
http://sportsandgrits.com/
He is very simialar
To that right we brought up last year. His name forgets me, but he was a free swinger who hardly walked, much like Diaz. Only difference is he had a bit more power and was better defensively.
The type of player Diaz is can be found almost anywhere.
"NLDS or bust" - Bobby Cox
We don't have to continue to settle Atlanta. We're better than that.
by DopeFalcons on Jan 24, 2012 6:01 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
* righty hitter
"NLDS or bust" - Bobby Cox
We don't have to continue to settle Atlanta. We're better than that.
by DopeFalcons on Jan 24, 2012 6:02 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Wilikin Ramirez?
http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/r/ramirwi01.shtml
http://sportsandgrits.com/
We’re not going to cut Diaz over Spring Training, unless he’s just epically bad.
Q: If not us, who? If not now, when? A: The Batman. And "when you least expect it."
That's exactly what I said
If he has a bad spring meaning batting under .200
"NLDS or bust" - Bobby Cox
We don't have to continue to settle Atlanta. We're better than that.
Prince Fielder to the Tigers
For 9 years. The NL’s potato chips are safe at last.
If we can land [Stephen Drew], I will give FW a bj.
~justincredubil02
It seems
to be down to either the Tigers or Nats unless Boras pulls another mystery team out of his top hat .
the Tigers
9 years, 214 million
Miggy moving to 3rd. Wow.
by JoelGuzman'sScout on Jan 24, 2012 4:04 PM EST up reply actions
No body really saw this coming . There was another “mystery” team in the mix , which could be anybody . The known teams in on him were the Nats , Rangers , O’s , Mariners , Cubs . So hard to tell who the Mystery team was .
On a side note , Miguel will DH this year while V-Mart is out and then play 3rd next year .
I know most don't know AL ball as well
…but the eye test says Cabrera is a better first sacker than Fielder. I’d wager it’s Fielder playing most at DH and Cabrera playing most at 1B this year.
Hey! I’m new.
by ChopMaster on Jul 7, 2011 10:24 PM CDT (joined Jul 19, 2010)
Twitter: @biggentleben
by biggentleben on Jan 24, 2012 4:48 PM EST up reply actions
And a quick look at stats back me up
Cabrera is a -10 fielding value on Fangraphs the last two seasons. Fielder is a -12.5 over those last two seasons. Not a ton better, but enough to keep Prince as a swing-only guy in 2012 with a guy like Dom Kelly/Brandon Inge/etc. at 3B for defense and whatever meek offense they’ll provide.
Hey! I’m new.
by ChopMaster on Jul 7, 2011 10:24 PM CDT (joined Jul 19, 2010)
Twitter: @biggentleben
by biggentleben on Jan 24, 2012 5:44 PM EST up reply actions
I could see that .
Reports are that Feilder’s defense is subpar . And Miguel couldn’t sticj in the OF when he first came up and didn’t exactly shine at 3rd with his D either but had somewhat found a home at first .
Does Miguel get traded or make the transition back to 3rd when V-Mart comes back from his injury , likely next year ?
Miggy has already agreed to and started training for the move back to 3B.
If we can land [Stephen Drew], I will give FW a bj.
~justincredubil02
by king of games on Jan 24, 2012 6:26 PM EST up reply actions
They've got a number of corner guys
No one with a bat in the same hemisphere as Cabrera, but much better offensively than their options at 3B, unless Castellanos is ready already in 2013.
Hey! I’m new.
by ChopMaster on Jul 7, 2011 10:24 PM CDT (joined Jul 19, 2010)
Twitter: @biggentleben
by biggentleben on Jan 24, 2012 8:21 PM EST up reply actions
Apparently they talked to him after last season about the possibility of moving back to 3B and he’s been working on losing weight over the offseason. How much weight he actually lost, we’ll have to see.
If we can land [Stephen Drew], I will give FW a bj.
~justincredubil02
by king of games on Jan 25, 2012 9:53 AM EST up reply actions
I'd think LF makes more sense than 3B,...
and in that regard, could they come back with an offer for Prado? Maybe Delmon Young and a prospect for Prado, who goes to 3B with Cabrera in LF? Maybe Young and several ’spects for Prado and JJ?
http://sportsandgrits.com/
by Mr. Sanchez on Jan 25, 2012 11:43 AM EST up reply actions
Interesting article i found ranking the Minor league systems throughout the Majors...
Braves are ranked 8th ahead of all our division foes…
http://www.minorleagueball.com/2012/1/23/2728027/2012-baseball-farm-system-rankings-prospects
Holy cow
Has this thread also been PhillyBrave’d?
Hey! I’m new.
by ChopMaster on Jul 7, 2011 10:24 PM CDT (joined Jul 19, 2010)
Twitter: @biggentleben
"What, he's not a regular making a rational argument!?"
“He must be a troll of some sort!”
"NLDS or bust" - Bobby Cox
We don't have to continue to settle Atlanta. We're better than that.
When you make a rational argument
…no one assumes troll.
Good day.
Hey! I’m new.
by ChopMaster on Jul 7, 2011 10:24 PM CDT (joined Jul 19, 2010)
Twitter: @biggentleben
by biggentleben on Jan 24, 2012 10:26 PM EST up reply actions
....right.
"NLDS or bust" - Bobby Cox
We don't have to continue to settle Atlanta. We're better than that.
by DopeFalcons on Jan 24, 2012 11:54 PM EST up reply actions
Has this poster Chopmaster'd?
"NLDS or bust" - Bobby Cox
We don't have to continue to settle Atlanta. We're better than that.
by DopeFalcons on Jan 24, 2012 11:57 PM EST up reply actions
If you had a choice of any of the following players to fill the last bench spot for 1-1.5 million, who would you choose?
Pat Burrell
Johnny Damon
Carlos Guillen
Bill Hall
Raul Ibanez
Conor Jackson
Austin Kearns
Juan Pierre
Marcus Thames
J.D. Drew
Kosuke Fukudome
I’d pick Drew.
Just Beachy here. How 'bout you?
I get Drew
…but I’d love to see Carlos Guillen for that price. He’s able to cover a number of infield/outfield position.
Hey! I’m new.
by ChopMaster on Jul 7, 2011 10:24 PM CDT (joined Jul 19, 2010)
Twitter: @biggentleben
by biggentleben on Jan 24, 2012 10:29 PM EST up reply actions
if hes not injured....
"Performance comes from work and dedication, belief and strength. Words and excuses get you nowhere." -Jason Heyward, Atlanta Braves Rightfielder
I'd still be tempted...
to take a flier on Kearns, just to see what happens. I wonder if better coaching could help him some.
"Some people give their bodies to science. I gave mine to baseball." -- Ron Hunt
I’d probably pick either Conor Jackson or Kearns. Both still young(er) and might just need a change of scenery.
"Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that." George Carlin
by DolphinNation on Jan 25, 2012 11:46 AM EST up reply actions
Here's something interesting .
""Never say never," said Pirates GM Neal Huntington to Jeff Nelson and Jim Memolo of MLB Network Radio when asked about a potential Andrew McCutchen trade. "If someone wants to back up the truck and give us one of those organization-altering deals, it’s something that we’d have to listen too … It would have to be a dramatic
I am one of those who would have thought that McCutchen would be “untouchable” . But I guess not for the right package .
That did seem like a slight invitation for a couple of phone calls.
Look, the Pirates are actually pretty close… they played .500 ball for much of last year, and hung around until about August. They could use more hitting and more pitching, and given the state of the NL Central, it wouldn’t take a lot to get them into the thick of that race in 2012. Witness…
1. Cubs – rebuilding, though seemingly in a smart way. They could be a little better.
2. Brewers – Fielder gone, Braun likely out for 1/3rd of the season. All semblance of offensive protection gone for those remaining.
3. Cards – Pujols gone, Wainwright will be ‘back’, but who knows in what condition?
4. Astros…. next.
5. Reds – they are probably the team to beat, having added Madson, Latos, and Texeira and subtracted Gomes. Oh wait, not that Texeira. They did trade away Volquez, though.
The Pirates added Erik Bedard (did you know he’ll be 32 in March?? I figured him for 28-29). Of course they lost Paul Maholm and still have Charlie Morton and Chris Resop. Casey McGehee was added to play third, Barmes for SS, Rod Barajas, and Pittsburgh Nate. They should be little better.
What would they want for Cutch? Pitching, definitely. I have to wonder if Jurrjens and Randall Delgado would get the conversation started. I gotta believe they would also want a prospect or two, given that their drafts haven’t been great lately (according to Bucs Dugout).
Who plays CF if they happen to move McCutchen? Probably Gorkys Hernandez, I guess. Remember him?
For the Braves, such a move would relegate Prado to the super-utility role (the Pirates don’t need him – Neil Walker is their 2B guy and they have lots of outfielders). It would put incredible speed into our lineup (Bourn, Cutch, Pastornicky) and put baserunners on virtually all the time. McCutchen was a 5.7 WAR guy in 2011. And of course, he is not a free agent until 2016. Prado might be made available to somebody for prospects or a 5th starter as well.
Would I actually want to offer 2 front-line pitchers for him? Only after seeing whether Hanson and Hudson show up healthy and I can reasonably be sure that I have at least 6 viable arms available going into the season (the depth chart might be Hanson/Hudson/Beach/Minor/Teheran/Medlen/Gilmartin).
In absence of any other news… nice to speculate. Nope, not holding my breath.
"Sir Stealth, Stay stealth.. Your a moron" (jrod1142), 12/15/11 (the epic FWren Fortitude FanPost)
IMHO
I think, just to get the conversation started, we would have to include Delgado, JJ and Minor…as well as some others (Bethancourt?). They wouldn’t hang up on Wren, but they’d ask for more than just these names.
As much as Cutch would be a great addition, you’d basically mortgage your future rotation to get him. It’s the same deal as last year when Justin Upton was available. Sure, they’ll trade him, but they’ll ask for a king’s ransom for it even to be considered.
"Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that." George Carlin
by DolphinNation on Jan 25, 2012 11:46 AM EST up reply actions
it would take king’s ransom to get the deal done, but could you imagine an outfield with Cutch and Heyward?
rather not imagine... rather it be a reality...
Then we wouldnt need to worry about resigning a 30 plus year old Bourne and concentrate on getting a Josh Hamilton or Shane Victorino next year…
"Performance comes from work and dedication, belief and strength. Words and excuses get you nowhere." -Jason Heyward, Atlanta Braves Rightfielder
This is actually the type of mega-deal that I could see Wren seriously attempting to put together: 2 or 3 young ML-ready pitchers + another prospect or 2 for a young superstar with 3 or 4 years of control. Basically, a 4 or 5 for 1 trade aimed at vaulting the Braves to a higher level and hopefully becoming more competitive for a world championship.
To clarify my thoughts: I do not see Wren giving up Heyward or Teheran. He could put together a hell of an interesting offer without either of them. The Pirates GM could also say No, not enough.
I would think to start the conversation
they say Heyward and Teheran. And ultimately demand at least one of the two.
http://sportsandgrits.com/
I would consider a package centered around JT. We have pitching depth in plenty, and McCutchen is a stud.
If we can land [Stephen Drew], I will give FW a bj.
~justincredubil02
by king of games on Jan 25, 2012 3:50 PM EST up reply actions
Jurrjens, Teheran, Delgado or Vizcaino, plus a pick 3 of Christian Bethancourt, Myke Jones, Joey Terdoslavich, Andrelton Simmons and Carlos Perez. I’d think it’d take at least 4 of those names, if not 5 or 6.
http://sportsandgrits.com/
I think it could get done without including Delgado/Vizcaino, but even a deal with JJ, JT, Vizzy, and a couple others I think I could get behind.
If we can land [Stephen Drew], I will give FW a bj.
~justincredubil02
by king of games on Jan 25, 2012 4:15 PM EST up reply actions
Giving up Vizcaino wont be bad either cause...
we also have Joey Graham waiting in the wings with his 95 plus fastball.. they are very simular, and Graham is younger
"Performance comes from work and dedication, belief and strength. Words and excuses get you nowhere." -Jason Heyward, Atlanta Braves Rightfielder
I could see both sides liking a deal that had Hanson + Teheran as the core. Hanson fits because the service time is equal and he’s also proven himself as a great player. Teheran besides is one hell of a nice addition to the package.
-C
It’s rough to sit through these games and not have someone that can’t hit a Ball?
Do you think it would be possible . . .
to put together a deal that didn’t include Teheran or Heyward?
Not that I think it makes a ton of sense for either side. Just wondering what a Hanson or JJ + Delgado + a ton of other players deal might look like.
by BrockSamson on Jan 25, 2012 10:38 PM EST up reply actions
My gut says no, because the Pirates are in the cat bird’s seat. It’s like when people were bandying around giving the Rockies both Jurrjens and Prado…at that point, the Rockies almost have to include Arenado if they want to get the deal done.
Now, if the Braves want to really overpay in order to prevent giving up Teheran, I suppose they could. But they’re not going to be trading anywhere near fair value.
Heyward is not going anywhere, so I don’t see why he’s being mentioned as part of the deal. The gain of McCutcheon would be negated by the loss of Heyward, and doesn’t fit the team’s needs whatsoever.
-C
It’s rough to sit through these games and not have someone that can’t hit a Ball?
McCutchen..
I would love to trade JJ and one of our pitching prospects… I think Minor, or maybe even Gilmartin/Hoover/ or Spruili. And maybe throw in a low level outfielder like Cunningham or M. Jones…
"Performance comes from work and dedication, belief and strength. Words and excuses get you nowhere." -Jason Heyward, Atlanta Braves Rightfielder
Trade....
Hanson/JJ or both… and include Minor/Vizcaino/Delgado along with 2 low level players (one being a pitcher, one being an outfielder… say maybe Cunningham/Mykal Jones and include Hoover or Spruilli…
Basically,
Andrew McCutchen to the Braves
for
Tommy Hanson/JJ/Minor/Hoover/ Mykel Jones (or Todd Cunningham) and Zeke Spruilli
"Performance comes from work and dedication, belief and strength. Words and excuses get you nowhere." -Jason Heyward, Atlanta Braves Rightfielder
No offense to any that want McCutchen because I’d want him too, but the offers are insane. Just to be clear, some are wanting to trade Jurrjens, our supposedly future #1 starter, our supposedly future #2 starter, and others for…
http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/m/mccutan01.shtml
this?
Take the name away. Look at his isolated stats and tell me he’s worth that.
Just Beachy here. How 'bout you?
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I’d take my chances…
-C
It’s rough to sit through these games and not have someone that can’t hit a Ball?
26+ years of team control, our #1,3 ,4, 10 and 15 prospects+ Jurrjens for 3 years of McCutchen? That’s absurd. Taking chances like that is for a larger market team, not a team that’s middle of the pack in salary. That’s future suicide and incredibly stupid. I’d do Vizcaino, Bethancourt, and Jurrjens, but trading away every piece of excess pitching is just dumb. And no, my proposal would probably not get it done.
Just Beachy here. How 'bout you?
Yeah, my proposal didn’t include anything like that. I said Hanson + Teheran. You’re looking at four years and six years, respectively, for four years.
Still a high price, but quality position players are worth far more to the organization than quality pitching players in the next 4-6 years.
-C
It’s rough to sit through these games and not have someone that can’t hit a Ball?
Pittsburgh
Wont keep any of these prospects INCLUDING McCutchen anyway… they never keep any of there top players for more than 5-6 years anyway. Once they require big they let them go… or trade them to the big teams (Redsox/Yankees etc.)
If we hold out a year or two, we can probably get McCutchen even cheaper. Pittsburghs GM is one of the least intelligent GMs in the league.
Thats why Pittsburgh rarely hits .500… last year was a bit of a fluke
"Performance comes from work and dedication, belief and strength. Words and excuses get you nowhere." -Jason Heyward, Atlanta Braves Rightfielder
No, you're wrong.
They have a fairly new GM, and he’s building the organization correctly. The old Pirates GM ran things exactly as you have said. The new one is much better.
-C
It’s rough to sit through these games and not have someone that can’t hit a Ball?
My apologies...
I dont follow the Pirates to be honest, EVEN THOUGH i live in Pennsylvania, I am a Braves fan… and Havent really followed and DID not know there was a new GM….Feel bad for the guy having to clean up the previous regimes mess
"Performance comes from work and dedication, belief and strength. Words and excuses get you nowhere." -Jason Heyward, Atlanta Braves Rightfielder
They’re doing an outstanding job, though, through the draft and IFA. Their approach will be hurt by the new CBA, but they at least got a couple years at that attempt before their fellow owners hurt their ability to be competitive.
Hey! I’m new.
by ChopMaster on Jul 7, 2011 10:24 PM CDT (joined Jul 19, 2010)
Twitter: @biggentleben
by biggentleben on Jan 31, 2012 9:28 AM EST up reply actions
I noticed they got two really top tier starting pitchers as well....
Garrett Cole and Jameson Tailon… and that got that slugging Josh Bell to sign with them somehow as well…
"Performance comes from work and dedication, belief and strength. Words and excuses get you nowhere." -Jason Heyward, Atlanta Braves Rightfielder
….and Luis Heredia and Stetson Allie, who have a ton of talent, but struggled some in 2011. Both are very young and could still get better. Kyle McPherson was a great find in the 14th round.
Pedro Alvarez was also a great choice, even though he’s stalemated some in the majors right now. They have an abundance of solid outfielders, which is why they can even discuss moving McCuthen right now (and likely for a Bedard-esque trade package if they did), and they also have a very solid defensive catcher with some upside in Tony Sanchez.
All those guys are in the last few years as well. The Pirates have also invested well in trades/free agents with the current regime this year as well. Last year, acquiring a guy like Ludwick was a low-risk deal, and their signings this offseason are low priced enough to be low risk, but they could bring back some solid return if Bedard comes through and McGehee brings some stability to their lineup. Heck, McLouth is even cheap enough that he could be a solid value for them.
Hey! I’m new.
by ChopMaster on Jul 7, 2011 10:24 PM CDT (joined Jul 19, 2010)
Twitter: @biggentleben
by biggentleben on Jan 31, 2012 5:11 PM EST up reply actions
Great news...
Cause the Pirates have always been a good trade partner for Atlanta!
"Performance comes from work and dedication, belief and strength. Words and excuses get you nowhere." -Jason Heyward, Atlanta Braves Rightfielder
The old regime, yes
This crew, we’ll see.
Hey! I’m new.
by ChopMaster on Jul 7, 2011 10:24 PM CDT (joined Jul 19, 2010)
Twitter: @biggentleben
by biggentleben on Jan 31, 2012 7:44 PM EST up reply actions
Notice Adam Jones
a player the Braves wanted from Baltimore
"Performance comes from work and dedication, belief and strength. Words and excuses get you nowhere." -Jason Heyward, Atlanta Braves Rightfielder
???????
What started all these trade rumors with Pirates. Fantasy rosterbator or something with substance?
In a radio interview the Pirate’s GM responded with “never say never” when asked if a McCutchen trade was possible. It’s unlikely, and in reality, any player would be available if you threw enough good players into the pot.
If we can land [Stephen Drew], I will give FW a bj.
~justincredubil02
by king of games on Jan 25, 2012 3:48 PM EST up reply actions
McCutchen to atlanta
WOULD BE A DREAM trade… and they rarely take our best prospects in any deals either… last time I think we gave up Charlie Morton, Gorkys Hernandez in a deal for McClouth (who at the time was a pretty good hitter).. So far neither team has really won out on this trade.. but McClouth definitely didnt pan out much in Atlanta…
"Performance comes from work and dedication, belief and strength. Words and excuses get you nowhere." -Jason Heyward, Atlanta Braves Rightfielder
I just seen on MLBTradeRumors
and figured it would be worth talking about seeing how some of us , including myself , have fantisized about having him in a Braves uniform . It’s been a boring offeseason . Just trying to pass the time .
May be beside the point, but we already have a centerfielder.
Is it just assumed that everyone who plays center can also play every other outfield position? I’m asking.
We wouldn't need J-Hey's range
With Bourn and McCutchen’s range, we could put Hinske or McCann out there and the whole outfield would still be covered.
this and that
"Sir Stealth, Stay stealth.. Your a moron" (jrod1142), 12/15/11 (the epic FWren Fortitude FanPost)
I don't know if it's been reported yet or not . But here it is .
“•The Braves have set a player payroll budget of $94MM for this year, leaving them with several million dollars still to spend, chairman and CEO Terry McGuirk told Tim Tucker of the Atlanta Journal-Constitution. McGuirk also said that Liberty Media has expressed no intention of selling the club in the near future. Also of note is that the club is locked into a 25-year local TV deal that will prevent the franchise from cashing in on MLB’s trend toward higher telecast rights fees.”
I thought our payroll was $94M last year and what happened to that payroll increase ? And so much for Liberty selling in the next year or so .
Why would they be thinking of selling?
We have a Roy closer, sophomore 1b, 2 sophomore starters, 2 rookie starters, 2 more starters still on the way up (Hanson, jj), a rookie ss and 3 top prospects to win the ss3b roles. 2 pitchers relievers w breakout years last year, a 2b man in his prime, a catcher in his prime, and 2 star veterans to lead the way. This investment is ascending, a business wouldn’t sell this company for a couple years, and they would not be talking about it until they are in position.
And following that thought process
We don’t need more money. What would we have done with it? Blocked pastornicky and Simmons? Replaced Prado? Replaced Heyward? There was nothing it would have done for us. I think organizational health comes frm this tension, which allows young players w talent to get chances, to rebound, etc. it also takes pressure off the management to replace guys they believe in
And I have a feeling that if there is one thing a large corporation would be on top of it’s increasing payroll as a bonus for good performance, so hopefully if that horde of talent comes to bear then I think the payroll will respond accordingly (or at least change accordingly.)
Sgt.: Pointed stick? Oh, oh, oh. We want to learn how to defend ourselves against pointed sticks, do we? Getting all high and mighty, eh? Fresh fruit not good enough for you eh? Well I'll tell you something my lad. When you're walking home tonight and some great homicidal maniac comes after you with a bunch of loganberries, don't come crying to me! Now, the passion fruit.
I think so
It also seems that they are setting the payroll at break even, which means if they have more crowd, make more money, they can have more salary.
Hopefully the team can be extremely exciting this year with speed youth and a couple 30 HR seasons with electric pitching. If they put on a good show this year, bring in some money, win if things all go right, then for the next 5 years we should be sitting pretty as the youth settles in.
by willlinn on Jan 27, 2012 9:27 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Interesting article concerning Heyward
http://riveraveblues.com/2012/01/mailbag-brown-and-heyward-62976/
"I really can't stand that NFL guy, what's his name? Mel, yeah Mel Kiper Jr. He knows about as much about football as a Japanese space pilot." - Coach Trickett FSU
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Datsyuk, He could deke Victoria out of her secret… He’s THE MAN. posted by Josh Howard on Winging it in Motown 10/13/11
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by nolesbroncos3456 on Jan 26, 2012 10:24 AM EST reply actions
I'm not sure I get it
Suggesting the Braves would trade Heyward for yet more pitching? I’m sure the Yankees would love it and all, but… from the Braves side of things that makes no sense whatsoever.
Would a Brandon Inge for JJ trade make sense if Chipper or Uggla go down during the year?
Inge is going to be blocked with a JJ-sized contract. I can see him having a couple more solid years.
Bad Trade for the Braves
Giving up an All-star who is at worst a #3 starter for a player that never lived up to potential and was sent down to the minors. Inge is like a 3B equivalent of a Jack Wilson. Plays good Defense, used to have some offense, but no pop left in the ol’ stick.
Inge is 34, turning 35 in May
He’s coming off a season where he had an OPS+ within a few points of Derek Lowe’s – with the bat. He does play excellent defense at 3B, but not at the historic levels of 2005. He’s only had an OPS+ over 100 twice in his career, and the last time he did such, the Braves were still in the midst of The Streak. That’d have to be Inge and Castellanos coming back to make any sense for the Braves.
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by ChopMaster on Jul 7, 2011 10:24 PM CDT (joined Jul 19, 2010)
Twitter: @biggentleben
by biggentleben on Jan 26, 2012 10:47 PM EST up reply actions
Turner and Castellanos coming back to make any sense for the Braves.
FIFY
by JoelGuzman'sScout on Jan 27, 2012 11:04 AM EST up reply actions
Not so much
Not going to get Turner AND Castellanos in a deal, even if we’re having to absorb the albatross that is Inge, but you better for sure get one of the two.
Hey! I’m new.
by ChopMaster on Jul 7, 2011 10:24 PM CDT (joined Jul 19, 2010)
Twitter: @biggentleben
by biggentleben on Jan 27, 2012 11:47 AM EST up reply actions
In your scenario, it would be easier to bring Prado back into the infield and then find a LF guy. Certainly in a short-term deal we’d do that and call up a Gwinnett replacement.
Now if we’re talking “season-ending injury in May” or something, well…. then we might do something else… but LF would still be an easier hole to fill.
"Sir Stealth, Stay stealth.. Your a moron" (jrod1142), 12/15/11 (the epic FWren Fortitude FanPost)
Brandon Inge has power...
But why would we give up JJ for a guy who is lucky to hit anything higher than .230 with bad legs.. No thanks
"Performance comes from work and dedication, belief and strength. Words and excuses get you nowhere." -Jason Heyward, Atlanta Braves Rightfielder
The Riot has landed
Giants: $1.25m, 750K more possible w/incentives.
"Sir Stealth, Stay stealth.. Your a moron" (jrod1142), 12/15/11 (the epic FWren Fortitude FanPost)
John Peter has also signed
Phillies: Juan Pierre. minor league deal.
"Sir Stealth, Stay stealth.. Your a moron" (jrod1142), 12/15/11 (the epic FWren Fortitude FanPost)
Watching Moneyball....
I really wish the Braves front office would at least pay attention to sabermetrics like OBP, OPS, and BABIP. More guys on base usually equals more runs produced. I know chicks dig the long ball, but our pitching staff digs the run support.
What makes you think they don’t? Had the 3rd highest OBP in the Majors in 2010 (tied with the Red Sox), but extreme down years from Heyward, Uggla, Prado, and a typical year from Alex Gonzalez really dragged them down in 2011.
Fredi may not pay attention to stats, or who happens to be playing, or what pitchers he has in the bullpen, but I would bet the front office does.
Unfortunately the front office doesn’t focus the instruction like coaches do. The FO valuing that quality is independent of what the coaches are teaching in season because the FO really has no option other than contract. Hiring Larry Parrish (a FO move) didn’t seem to help the problem.
But also keep in mind that the FO allows Fredi to speak to the media, so they are either being silly or in some bizzaro world agree with his thoughts.
Sgt.: Pointed stick? Oh, oh, oh. We want to learn how to defend ourselves against pointed sticks, do we? Getting all high and mighty, eh? Fresh fruit not good enough for you eh? Well I'll tell you something my lad. When you're walking home tonight and some great homicidal maniac comes after you with a bunch of loganberries, don't come crying to me! Now, the passion fruit.
The front office can fire people who don’t teach they way they want and hire people who will. They’re ultimately responsible for the organization’s philosophy.
All managers basically sound like idiots. They have to repeat the same baseball cliches as all of their peers to not appear to be rocking the boat. As smarter GMs are now the norm (except in LA, Kansas City, and San Francisco), I think this attitude will start to change. Managers will be encouraged to try new things and get with the times.
Right, but at the end of the day the coaches are an extension of the FO only in presence. Their actual instruction and strategy is generally their own and then reviewed by the FO. They are responsible for the big picture, but shifts in philosophy from year to year (think Larry Parrish) are more representative of the coaches. I agree that the FO sets the agenda basically though.
Sgt.: Pointed stick? Oh, oh, oh. We want to learn how to defend ourselves against pointed sticks, do we? Getting all high and mighty, eh? Fresh fruit not good enough for you eh? Well I'll tell you something my lad. When you're walking home tonight and some great homicidal maniac comes after you with a bunch of loganberries, don't come crying to me! Now, the passion fruit.
The coaches and their mindset aren’t exactly a mystery to the FO. The Braves FO knew they were getting “aggressive” minded coaches in Fredi and Larry, and that’s very likely why they were hired (as looking for “aggressive” hitters and Powah were points that have tended to come up from Wren the last couple of years.
Q: If not us, who? If not now, when? A: The Batman. And "when you least expect it."
I’m with you, the coaches and their philosophies are a direct result of the choices of the FO. My only point is that it’s all theoretical when you hire Fredi and Parrish. You are basically hiring an idea or an unknown (in terms of the fabric of the Atlanta Braves.) What happens between that hiring and the reassessment at the end of the year is that the coach has the opportunity to implement their philosophy or presence or what have you.
The FO has little control over that, and I imagine that FW’s decision to move on with Parrish was not because of some stunning realization in a meeting, but more that that meeting made it clear that there were too many problems/philosophical differences for that relationship to work. The point is that during season Parrish likely had almost free range, and the FO isn’t nearly as responsible for the way in-season instruction/coaching happened as the individual coach is.
Sgt.: Pointed stick? Oh, oh, oh. We want to learn how to defend ourselves against pointed sticks, do we? Getting all high and mighty, eh? Fresh fruit not good enough for you eh? Well I'll tell you something my lad. When you're walking home tonight and some great homicidal maniac comes after you with a bunch of loganberries, don't come crying to me! Now, the passion fruit.
Newest rumor...
hangingsliders Wendy Thurm
Wow RT @mlbdailydish: RUMOR: Nationals Offering Drew Storen to Bring Back Adam Dunn (plus cash) from WhiteSox #mlb sbn.to/xK1nUe"
Very interesting from both sides. Definitely a wild card move with an upside that scares me more as a Braves fan than the now-defunct possibility of signing Fielder long-term. The Nats bullpen is solid even without Storen, and instead of paying Fielder huge dollars, they could net a bounceback beast on the White Sox’s dime.
-C
It’s rough to sit through these games and not have someone that can’t hit a Ball?
http://www.mlbdailydish.com/2012/1/29/2756448/nationals-drew-storen-adam-dunn-mlb-2012
-C
It’s rough to sit through these games and not have someone that can’t hit a Ball?
Unlikely...
I doubt the Nats will trade Storen..
"Performance comes from work and dedication, belief and strength. Words and excuses get you nowhere." -Jason Heyward, Atlanta Braves Rightfielder
Parks and Rec
There are a lot of Parks and Rec fans in here, right? Did anyone notice the shot of Atlanta that appeared in last week’s episode?
What do you guys think of trading JJ to the Detroit Tigers for.....
2. Nick Castellanos, 3B
BORN: March 4, 1992
EXPERIENCE: 2 seasons
ACQUIRED: 2010 supplemental 1st round, Florida HS
2010-11 TOP 10 RANKING: 2nd
Far and away Detroit’s best hitting prospect, Castellanos will likely eventually force Miguel Cabrera back to the designated hitter’s role (which is probably where he belongs anyway with Prince Fielder holding down first base). Castellanos, though, could be two to three years away from reaching the Majors after spending all of 2011 in low-A ball. Although young for the league, he hit .312 and posted a wRC+ of 129. His frame hints at future 20-25 home run potential but he knocked just seven balls over the fence in ’11. He showed good gap power with 36 doubles. If he can trim the strikeouts and improve his approach, he has the raw skills to hit for both power and average. In the dirt Castellanos shows good actions considering he’s fairly new to the position after playing shortstop in high school. He has solid arm strength and good range.
"Performance comes from work and dedication, belief and strength. Words and excuses get you nowhere." -Jason Heyward, Atlanta Braves Rightfielder
I’m going to guess that if he continues to progress this year, that his timing to the majors is just about right for the Tigers plans as you suggest above. On the flip side, he’s too far away for the Braves’ needs… and we might actually have one or two candidates for the position that are about the same level of development (Salcedo particularly). So I would think it to be a significant overpay for somebody we might not need. If he’s going from AA to AAA … then yeah.
dang, I’m getting old… starting to get new major leaguers up who haven’t even been alive as long as I’ve been married.
"Sir Stealth, Stay stealth.. Your a moron" (jrod1142), 12/15/11 (the epic FWren Fortitude FanPost)
It appears we should just try to get an outfield prospect or two that seems to be the most pressing need. I see this guy as someone we could move to the outfield as well much like Klesko Justice or Gant who were all converted corner infielders.. Gant may have been a 2b but you see the point
"Performance comes from work and dedication, belief and strength. Words and excuses get you nowhere." -Jason Heyward, Atlanta Braves Rightfielder
With their owner aging and them being in a win now mode
I would make this trade, but I would ask for another prospect or two in return for shoring up their pitching staff behind Verlander
Two potential free agent targets
Any thoughts on Eric Chávez or Mark Teahen
And as for trades… I know LAA just resigned Erick Aybar but with the amount of money they have tied up now i wonder if they would consider trading him and Mike Trout for Jurriens and Medlen. Only thing is they have a pretty decent staff already. Just a thought
On the second deal
They’d say nothing. The phone would hang up before they said a word, though FW may hear a bout of laughter coming through before the phone hit the click. They would demand Teheran and Minor and Delgado for Trout at this point, most likely, and they wouldn’t be out of line to ask that, let alone Aybar.
Chavez isn’t an adequate 3B anymore, and we don’t need another 1B only bench player along with Hinske. Teahen just isn’t good. He played above his head in KC for a couple years, but in general, his career has been bad. Bill James has him projected for .258/.334/.384 for 2012, and James’ projections are quite optimistic typically. Weigh in that he’s a quite poor defender at 3rd, and his value to us is nil.
Hey! I’m new.
by ChopMaster on Jul 7, 2011 10:24 PM CDT (joined Jul 19, 2010)
Twitter: @biggentleben
by biggentleben on Jan 31, 2012 7:43 PM EST up reply actions
lol
Ill take that as a no.
Ok then…
I think i saw Conor Jackson’s name mentioned above. He would seem like a pretty decent option. Can play OF, 1B and 3B. He has a good feilding percentage and has had some pretty good years at the plate. Any thoughts on him? He seems like a good option off the bench if nothing else and can give us a little flexabilty in the field.
Also i have long hated the thought of trading either JJ or Prado but have recently come around on JJ. With the stock pile of young guns lets get something for JJ while we can! And honetly i would love to see us sign Chris Young. I know we dont NEED another starter but this is a guy worth taking a flier on. He is a really good pitcher who would come cheap (under a mill, maybe even a minor league deal). If he is healthy he can be huge and if not it is worth the gamble.
So… thougths on signing Jackson, trading JJ now while theoretically his value is high, and signing Young???
With the injuries to Huddy and Hanson , JJ probably won’t be traded til after they come back healthy . Also , I think JJ’s injury and production last year maybe a question mark in itself with other teams . They may want to see him produce like last year again to make sure it was no fluke . And also see him pitch without getting injured for a bit . If he is dealt , it may not be til the AS break . And even then , it would depend on how well one of our young guns were doing to see if they could fill the void left by him .
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