Arguments for a 6 week 6 man rotation
Condensed:
Hudson, Hanson, and JJ could all use an extra day between starts early in the season
Beachy, Minor, Teheran will all hit their innings limit before the post-season, when we will need them.
Going with a 6 man to start the season would allow a couple huge benefits. 1, our creaky front end of the rotation could ease into the rigors of the season while going easier on their bodies. 2, it would give us a better chance of having live young arms going into the post season. And while we are on 2, I think it’s worth mentioning that it’s a pretty big issue—think Padres ’10. If we trade a pitcher, we are relying on at least one of these young guys to be the third starter in the post season, and that’s if Hudson and Hanson are healthy at the end of the year—a big if. I know it would be unorthodox, but no more unorthodox than having 5/6 guys 26 and under making starts. It’s worth going to extra effort to make sure some of our young starters have live arms going into the post season, especially with the injury concerns around the others. What I’m postulating is that, an early season 6-man rotation might be a necessary adjustment for a team that intends to win in the playoffs with so many young starters and injury questions at the top of the rotation.
It’s only the difference of a start or two from our best performer (which we can’t predict, since it could as easily be Minor or Teheran starter as an April Hanson or Hudson). Meanwhile, it allows an extra day of rest for our young arms and injured front line starters. I think it would be less valuable to think of the 9 or 10 innings it would save on the arm, and more valuable to think of its extra day of rest and recuperation.
Also, I am just suggesting this as temporary. After the first 6 weeks, hopefully everyone is eased into the season and ready to pitch every 5 days. This will allow for room for an injury or trade. It may even make a trade candidate more appealing, if their arm is perceived as more fresh going into the second half. If we are talking about JJ, this might be directly valuable as a statement in trade negotiations, considering it was after the first half that JJ wore down last season.
Now let me say, I’m not committed to this as the best plan, and I’ve also heard numerous other arguments for 6 men rotations. I wrote this because I think a unique and solid argument can be made for the Braves in ’11. We have more depth than we know what to do with, we have some injury concerns and we are committed to young pitchers in the playoffs.
I look forward to feedback and variation. I expect the best counterargument to concern getting into grooves, and how pitching more often can help with sharpness. I am not sure how to evaluate these benefits in relation to rest, and how to weigh the short-term benefits against the long. It gets sloppy here for a couple reasons, 1, every pitcher is different, 2, there aren’t many case studies to go off of. Many of us probably just remember the one time Vazquez made a start on 5 days rest, got rocked, and we saw stats of how he always did worse with more rest. Even if we wanted to look at league pitchers and all their starts with 5 days rest, it doesn’t compare since it wasn’t routine. It’s when the thought process leads into this mess of uncertainty that it seems like a risky proposition—especially if the young pitchers don’t actually pitch deeper into games despite having one less guy in the pen. So as I said, I concede good arguments from both sides. I wrote this up because I think there are good enough arguments to try the 6 man to at least throw it out there for debate. We have some guys w some injuries that could use some stretching out, and we have young guys we will need to not hit walls later on.
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So, a 4 man bench or a 6 man pen? I see problems with both of those scenario’s.
"First!"...Who gives a damn if you are first
if we had Prado it's not that big of deal actually
we go with
C – Ross
1B/LF – Hinske
SS – unknown backup
CF/4th OF – Constanza
2B/3B – Prado
Or if we have to keep Diaz, you depend on Heyward as your emergency CF and figure Bourn to start every game—call up a sub if he gets injured.
I am not saying those are idea, or even good for the long season, but it would be managable
But with an extra starter on the roster, that would mean that the bullpen would have to shrink to 6 pitchers to accommodate. The top 3 guys were overused as it was—imagine having only 3 other guys to fall back on when O’Ventbrel needs a break.
there he had a 4 man bench
so you wouldn’t need to shrink the bullpen
Chopmaster: my link is my dad who has watched the braves since I don’t know. he’s 56.
6 man pen
Starters theoretically can go deeper into games with 5 days rest. And if one starter gets rocked and comes out after say 3 innings, we can put in tomorrow’s starter and go with a 5 man rotation for a little while.
"Your an idiot." (jrod1142)
"*Your'e" (swainzy)
Starters have a routine...
…with throwing in between starts, etc. You can’t have one moved up a day on one innings notice because the other guy got rocked.
No, but you can expect them to go deeper in to games with more rest
and with Medlen, Martinez, or both in the bullpen as long men capable, do we need the extra junk man that never gets used anyway?
http://sportsandgrits.com/
by Mr. Sanchez on Jan 11, 2012 10:34 AM EST up reply actions
I like a 6-man rotation, but using tandem-starters. Each pair goes 3-5 innings per start (strict-ish limit of 60 pitches per start), in a 3-pair rotation. 5 relief pitchers, with our 2 aces pitching 1-2 innings every other day. Advantages:
>>6 bench players instead of 5
>>Pitchers are more effective over shorter outings because they don’t have to pace themselves
>>Pitchers shouldn’t throw any more pitches than they normally would over a season (54 games * 60 pitches = 3240 pitches) or more innings than normal (150 – 225 per year)
>>You get more innings from your starters and less innings from the 6th and (now non-existent) 7th members of the bullpen
Disadvantages:
>>The pitchers may be douche bags about it, because after all, how are they going to get their WINZ!!1 if they go less than 5 innings (i’ve thought of this, and you could rotate who starts and who “relieves” to even out the chances of “winning” but I think it’s better to tell the guys to stop whining like little bitches)
Don't kiss an ass if it's in the process of shitting on you.
"…aren’t worthy enough to hold his (Pujols) ass cheeks apart while Playboy models wipe him with thousand dollar bills after he craps out the cure to whatever previously-incurable disease." by royhobbs 1/7/09
Disadvantages:
>>The pitchers may be douche bags about it, because after all, how are they going to get their WINZ!!1 if they go less than 5 innings (i’ve thought of this, and you could rotate who starts and who "relieves" to even out the chances of "winning" but I think it’s better to tell the guys to stop whining like little bitches)
I can understand why some pitchers might “whine” & be douchey. If they have signed contracts with incentives, by taking away their time on the mound would not their opportunity to meet those incentives is lessened?
"People ask me what I do in winter when there's no baseball. I'll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring." Rogers Hornsby
*be lessened?
"People ask me what I do in winter when there's no baseball. I'll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring." Rogers Hornsby
Not to mention negative impact on how their careers may be viewed in the future and chances at the HOF (whatever that’s worth these days).
If we can land [Stephen Drew], I will give FW a bj.
~justincredubil02
by king of games on Jan 11, 2012 5:15 PM EST up reply actions
Good point
Another perspective on the financial side of things is that of the owners. If I’m paying out big bucks for a FA pitcher, I’m going want to run him out there as much as I can because of the money I’m laying down toward his contract. I get more return him pitching every 5 days than every 6.
"People ask me what I do in winter when there's no baseball. I'll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring." Rogers Hornsby
HE'S A RADICAL!
Valued customer of Boris' Baseball Boutique
by VivaLosBravos on Jan 11, 2012 1:36 PM EST up reply actions
with how run down the bull pen was last year we might need a 4 man rotation
jk but you know what i mean
With regards to the bullpen use last year
I get that people are worried about overuse of oventbrel, but IMO I don’t think that’s why they fell off the cliff in the 2nd half last season. All 3 guys were exceptional until the media, analysts, reporters, etc. continually stressed the idea that “these guys are going to break down” when they seemed fine. Just an opinion but I think fredi caved under the critics and messed up with the trios routine. I mean if I remember correct JV was a starter coming up throwing a lot more innings. Obviously they can’t go every game but fredi definitely misused those guys down the stretch. Also, the pen will be much more versitale w.o guys like linerink and sherril, and the inconsistencies they brought w them. Looking forward to the start of the next dynasty of the tomahawk, love the cohesion, chemistry and talent that this team is ready or damn near ready to start living up too.
by PhillyBrave on Jan 12, 2012 9:55 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
I think we need four guys who can go 2+ innings, and O’Ventbrel
Medlen, C-Mart, Varvaro can do it, maybe have Redmond as the 4th long man?
Our pitchers are good, but none of them can be relied on to get into the 7th right now- JJ may be the most reliable, and he gets hurt more then he should.
I am fine with 6 man rotation but I think the big thing we need to get is Medlen, C-Mart and Vizcaino stretched out in spring training. Use these guys from the 6th to 8th inning every 4th or so night. This would limit the need for our short relivers so you wouldn’t one put the burden early in the season and two you might be able to use your 6th SP spot for one of your short relievers spot.
I like that idea
Just let medlen and Martinez pitch through the 8th when they pitch
Six man rotations benefit starters but not relievers
Day 1: Huddy throws a complete game
Day 2: Hanson throws 6.1 IP, O’VB finish 2.2 IP
Day 3: Jurrjens throws 6.0 IP O’VB is trotted out again because it’s close
Day 4: Minor throws 5.1 IP due to short hook, it’s a close game, Martinez, Varvaro, Vizcaino, Medlen finish out game (loss)
Day 5: Teheran throws 4.2 IP in a shaky start, Varvaro, Vizcaino, EOF and Kimbrel eat the remaining innings of a loss.
Day 6: Delgado needs 106 pitches to complete 5.2 innings. Medlen, Vizcaino and O’VB are used to finish out a win.
Day 7: Huddy throws 7.0 IP, EOF and Kimbrel finish out the game
You’d have to be blind to not see that Fredi, or the team, will have short hooks on the young guys, just like the team has been throughout the last decade when it comes to ushering in new young pitchers. Having more starts go to guys who will be yanked at the slightest notion of trouble, pitch counts or innings limits means more stress on the bullpen, which apparently could become a bigger issue than a year ago, if more is expected out of them with a six-man rotation.
It’s great for starters in terms of getting rest, but it has the potential to put exponentially more stress on the bullpen.
And baseball players are creatures of habit. Either this needs to be all in, or don’t bother at all. You can’t expect pitchers to get used to having five full days of rest, and then suddenly take one away midway through the season, or vice versa.
No wonder nobody likes you, Tuttle... everything's a (Pujols) damn debate.
Exactly this
Pitchers are a totally different animal than a position or utility guy. Someone like Huddy who’s a seasoned vet may not take too a total change of routine. However, I do think having Meds an C-mart as long guys would alleviate this ‘problem’ of sorts. Fredi will not be THAT guy to use the first 6-man regularly in the 20th centurary. Just don’t see it
by PhillyBrave on Jan 11, 2012 9:49 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
Past
You’re so last century my friend ;)
But Fredi would still not do it in the 22nd century either!
by CT's #1 Braves Fan on Jan 11, 2012 11:23 AM EST up reply actions
Early in the season you hardly even use your 5th starter....
I can see the argument for the six starter….LATER in the season. Not in the beginning. In most cases the schedule is lighter early in the season with more off days. Most teams hardly use their 5th starter for the first 3-4 weeks of the season.
However, if you get to Mid July-Mid August I could see this making sense. Especially if you figure that the summer days often produce more fatigue then the cooler months of April and May.
Now do I think Fredi would pull a LaRussa and make a big statement about using a 6 man rotation and how it would be beneficial? No. Do I think he could call someone up from AAA and work him in for a few turns in the rotation to subtle provide some rest for the rest of the rotation…yes I can see that.
You want radical ideas
Try something like a 5 man with Hudson, JJ, Hanson, Minor as your top 4 and then have Teheran/Delgado/Medlen share 5th starter duties in this manner:
Week 1, #5 slot: JT pitches 4-5 IP, Delgado pitches 3-4 IP, Medlen long relief
Week 2, #5 slot: Delgado pitches 4-5 IP, Medlen pitches 3-4 IP, JT long relief
Week 3, #5 slot: Medlen pitches 4-5 IP, JT pitches 3-4 IP, Delgado long relief
Only issue is that to do that, you’d have to limit the pen to something like O’Ventbrel, Martinez, Vizcaino, and JT/Medlen/Delgado. Perhaps one more arm like Varvaro or Gearrin in there, but it would be sweet essentially having the entire bullpen outside of O’Ventbrel capable of tossing multiple innings.
Hey! I’m new.
by ChopMaster on Jul 7, 2011 10:24 PM CDT (joined Jul 19, 2010)
Twitter: @biggentleben
Did Beachy die?
"First!"...Who gives a damn if you are first
D'oh!
My favorite starter, and I leave him off…shame on me!
So no Varvaro or Gearrin, and you toss Minor into the rotation of guys at the #5. I do think running a few weeks where you pair someone with Beachy could keep his inning count down so as to gradually add to his arm.
Hey! I’m new.
by ChopMaster on Jul 7, 2011 10:24 PM CDT (joined Jul 19, 2010)
Twitter: @biggentleben
by biggentleben on Jan 15, 2012 1:33 PM EST up reply actions

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