Braves Will Not Renew The Contract Of Hitting Coach Larry Parrish
by gondeee on Sep 30, 2011 3:48 PM EDT
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The Braves Twitter account just made 95% of Braves Country super-happy:
The Braves announce Larry Parrish will not be back for the 2012 season. All other coaches will return.
That's a start! I was thinking how to talk about Parrish today and I realized that I can't recall hearing anything about him all season, good or bad. It's like he was a non-factor.
I'm glad to see the Braves are going to make a change. When the team stops hitting -- everyone on the team -- something has to be done.
Joe over at Chop-N-Change did a good breakdown of some of the Braves hitting stats from last year to this year. It doesn't paint a pretty picture. Of course, how much of that was Parrish, and how much was perhaps the attitude of the manager to be more aggressive (or something).
The official release came as an announcement from Frank Wren ... not Fredi Gonzalez. I'm reading something into that which I probably should not ... after all, just yesterday Fredi said that the entire coaching staff would be back next season. This is a quick reversal of that statement from his boss. Not a good sign that everyone is on the same page in the Braves organization.
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Let it be known that FG doesn’t get to say who goes and who stays. What an ass you are Fredi.
If anyone knocks baseball I get upset, because I think it's a wonderful life.
Managers typically assemble their own coaching staffs.
I don’t see how that makes him an ass, though he should have talked about it with Wren first (assuming he didn’t).
My middle name is Luck, so suck on this, Luck suckers.
I am so glad that it happened like this, Frank Wren basically just publicly neutered Fredi and I couldnt be happier.
Sgt.: Pointed stick? Oh, oh, oh. We want to learn how to defend ourselves against pointed sticks, do we? Getting all high and mighty, eh? Fresh fruit not good enough for you eh? Well I'll tell you something my lad. When you're walking home tonight and some great homicidal maniac comes after you with a bunch of loganberries, don't come crying to me! Now, the passion fruit.
Wren came out and confirmed what Fredi originally stated,
so this is a complete reversal on his part, not an admonishment of Fredi.
by Aaron Meier on Sep 30, 2011 10:38 PM EDT up reply actions
Prado...
I don’t think Prado will be playing for the Braves next season. He’s traded somewhere.
Twitter:ChopAttack
Boo...
Really? Why? He’s so versatile off the bench and a good hitter
"I wasn’t thinking about it. That’s the worst celebration of all time. I didn’t know what to do. I got lost in the moment." - Brian McCann
by HansonManCrush on Sep 30, 2011 4:29 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Off the bench?
He’s a starter. And good hitters don’t have a .302 OBP.
My middle name is Luck, so suck on this, Luck suckers.
He
Had a bad year on account of missing 2 months, and has played many years of the bench and could easily go back to that role and can play several positions
"I wasn’t thinking about it. That’s the worst celebration of all time. I didn’t know what to do. I got lost in the moment." - Brian McCann
by HansonManCrush on Sep 30, 2011 5:23 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Traded?
Maybe……Oh yeah I guess he didn’t like playing left field….waiting for third…oh yeah Chipper said I am coming back…I guess that means Prado will be traded if he wants to play in the infield so bad he lets his batting number’s slide? ( I know I will catch hell for that…but) I am really trying to see where a “staff” infection can case a slide so drastic..there had to be another reason.(substance abuse???)..he did forget his traveling suit the other night….maybe he needs to take some geiko (memory herb) to not forget how he ust to hit too?
""People ask me what I do in winter when there’s no baseball. I’ll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring." Rogers Hornsby
I am not a Prado apologist by any stretch of the imagination, but to say he intentionally tanked his numbers becase he didn’t want to play OF is just ridiculous.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Sep 30, 2011 5:29 PM EDT up reply actions
This
He simply had a down year. Thats it. End of story.
It would be beyond foolhardy to trade away the value and work ethic he brings to the team.
All while Fredi is surrounded by a bunch of orangutans, trying to teach them how to bunt the rocks and coconuts that angry 300 lb gorillas are throwing at them,
by royhobbs on Jul 29, 2011 11:20 AM PDT
Strong Side / Weak Side: Chipper Jones
http://www.onionsportsnetwork.com/articles/chipper-jones,8431/
by Santaklose11 on Sep 30, 2011 5:44 PM EDT up reply actions
I’m not opposed to trading him. Quite frankly, I don’t think he is that good. He is not even an average defensive player (either in the IF or OF) and he really isn’t that good of a hitter – especially at the top of the order.
He doesn’t take walks, and he relies on a heavier-than-normal BABIP.
He isn’t a young guy, and I just see what happened to him this year being more what we can expect going forward.
It’s a gut feeling of mine, nothing more.
But to deny his work ethic or his dedication is just ludicrous.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Sep 30, 2011 5:49 PM EDT up reply actions
talent is (which is why he has hit over .300 every season until now)
but the plate discipline has not which is why his OBP has not been that great. If he can learn some patience, he can be a huge asset, as he is one of the best placement hitters I have seen in a long time.
His dedication to the team and his work ethic is unreal…which is something that I love.
All while Fredi is surrounded by a bunch of orangutans, trying to teach them how to bunt the rocks and coconuts that angry 300 lb gorillas are throwing at them,
by royhobbs on Jul 29, 2011 11:20 AM PDT
Strong Side / Weak Side: Chipper Jones
http://www.onionsportsnetwork.com/articles/chipper-jones,8431/
by Santaklose11 on Sep 30, 2011 6:51 PM EDT up reply actions
He should work harder
at getting on base
by hoboken_wood on Sep 30, 2011 8:10 PM EDT up reply actions
I blame Parrish
on Prado and Heyward’s struggle. Their approach was way off. They seem thinking at the plate. They have good eyes. Let them see it and hit it.
Prado will get hits
and J-Hey will get walks, if they go back to their old approach. Unlearn what LP taught you.
In arb, as a weak hitting OF, how cheap is he gonna be?
and you trade him now? No way. See my order in the rosterbation post. You stay the course, keep him and most everyone else. Sign a veteran right handed reliever like a Wood among several others. Maybe sign 2-3 on cheap deals and let them compete with Marek, Gearrin, Martinez, etc. But deal JJ/Hanson for the SS, Lowe for a couple million that can go to a veteran corner OF bat (a similarly long list to the relief group), and you’ve got a pretty strong crew to go with.
http://sportsandgrits.com/
I can’t honestly believe that you would rather trade Hanson than Prado.
You are smarter than that.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Oct 1, 2011 1:38 PM EDT up reply actions
I can't believe you'd think they'd bring back the same return.
which one can bring us back a quality, long term solution for SS?
http://sportsandgrits.com/
I never said they bring back equal return. Hanson obviously brings back a much larger return, because he is a much better player.
If you want a real long-term solution at SS, you package something like Prado and Teheran with maybe a couple of other lesser pieces for a Stephen Drew type player.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Oct 1, 2011 2:58 PM EDT up reply actions
you would give up a prado and our top pitching prospects and others from someone like stephen drew?
by PhuckthePhillies on Oct 1, 2011 3:54 PM EDT up reply actions
Yes. I would. And not think twice about it.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Oct 1, 2011 5:19 PM EDT up reply actions
Did you see Drew's year?
he’ll be 29 next year, has had an ops+ below 100 more times than above it since his first full season, and has only the one season with a fWAR above 2.2. I’m not dealing Teheran for that. Not even close.
http://sportsandgrits.com/
Prado straight up for Ludwick would be an overpay. Prado straight up for Drew would not, unless you are talking about Arizona overpaying.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Oct 1, 2011 11:17 PM EDT up reply actions
Drew is older, more productive
and as good or worse with the bat depending on which Drew you’re getting, but more often than not, worse bat. With less years of control going forward. The only thing Drew has on Prado is defense and the more valuable defensive position. That you’d throw in Teheran too, plus others, for him, and “not think twice about it”? Just wow. Wow.
http://sportsandgrits.com/
REALLY??? You would trade Teheran AND Prado AND maybe a couple of other lesser pieces for Stephen fucking Drew? You do realize he isn’t a great SS, more of an above average type of player. Wow, I’m speechless.
braves#1
Yes. Giving up on Stephen Drew is like giving up on Heyward.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Oct 1, 2011 5:20 PM EDT up reply actions
I haven’t seen enough from Drew to make me want to give up Teheran AND Prado for. Now, there are players in this league that I would do that for, but Drew just isn’t the guy. He is just above average, plain and simple.
braves#1
Humor me
Who would you consider a fair trade for that package?
Most people use statistics the way a drunk would use a lamppost—for support, and not for illumination.
www.duwanis.com
For Prado and Teheran, at SS?
Castro or Andrus. Not a Hanley or Tulo, but someone in the tier just below them.
http://sportsandgrits.com/
Andrus? Seriously?
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Oct 1, 2011 8:14 PM EDT up reply actions
Maybe defensively.
Do you realize how similar offensively Drew is to Escobar?
Drew: .270 .330 .442 .773
Esco: .289 .366 .401 .766
Andrus: .271 .340 .343 .683
Unless you are talking about his batting average, or his speed, there is no way that Andrus is better than Drew offensively.
Since 2009, Andrus has a .314 wOBA and a 86 wRC+
Drew has a .332 wOBA and a 98 wRC+.
In the same time, Andrus has been worth 10.1 WAR in 443 games, while Drew has been worth 9.3 WAR in 377 games.
I don’t think I need to explain that the majority of Andrus’ WAR is a result of his defense, much like Alex Gonzalez.
Drew is by far the better option at SS than Andrus, and it really isn’t even close, as it’s not like Drew sucks with the glove.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Oct 1, 2011 11:23 PM EDT up reply actions
"there is no way that Andrus is better than Drew offensively."
take a look at OBP too there bud. See how it’s higher for Andrus, in addition to the speed, the age and ability to get better, the salary, the years remaining of control, defensively, offensively, every way possible except slugging Andrus is just better than Drew.
That you even discuss this makes me think you’re trolling. You can not be serious.
http://sportsandgrits.com/
Just in case you are serious
Do you realize how similar offensively Drew is to Escobar?
Drew: .270 .330 .442 .773
Esco: .289 .366 .401 .766
Andrus: .271 .340 .343 .683
Unless you are talking about his batting average, or his speed, there is no way that Andrus is better than Drew offensively
this whole thing is comical. Drew comparable to Esco? Except the 35 points in obp and 20 points in batting average? Oh, the slugging. What is this, the reverse Sea Bass argument. Yeah, they’re comparable, except for the older player is putting up worse numbers, playing worse D, and getting paid more. Other than that, they’re comparable, if by comparable you mean worse.
In Drew’s 5 full seasons, 3 have been sub par at the plate. He’ll be 29 when next year starts, and getting very costly while showing to be more injury prone. He’s extremely inconsistent getting on base, and has an extra .30 points on his obp and .40 points on his slugging in high altitude Arizona vs. on the road. He brings no speed, a below average glove, injury issues, and declining power that was in part a product of thin air. He’ll be expensive, and unless you wanna pay $10+m for him, would be a free agent after next year.
Andrus on the other hand, will be 23 when the season starts, and is just entering his first arb year. His lowest year in fWAR is eclipsed by only one season in Drew’s 5 year career, so aside from his career year that’s already over, you’re getting the better production, at a cheaper price. You get a 23 kid with a vacuum glove who can be an all time great over the next decade behind a pitching staff you want to build around (good defense up the middle is a good idea for that). You get a kid that has improved his BB:K ratio at the plate every year. You have a guy that is stealing bases and causing damage with his legs. You have a guy who has .329 to .340 to .347 in obp, and if he can consistently get above .350 going forward that makes his speed very valuable. As he matures, he’s showing more power to the point where at least as an 8 hole hitter, if not 2 hole with that obp, he can be very effective.
A hitter who in two of his 3 years in the league, has had the better obp than Drew, and isn’t it you who in the Sea Bass hate said how a hitter’s primary if not only job is to not get out? Andrus does that better than Drew already, and will get better at it while Drew will only get worse. So he’s better offensively. His speed makes him more dangerous offensively when combined with the superior on base skills. He’s much, much better defensively. He’s younger, cheaper, and has a more durable body. In every single way imaginable, not “maybe defensively”, but every single way imaginable aside from slugging (and even that’s questionable as Drew ages and if you take him out of Arizona), Andrus is better. And if you’re looking for slugging, you should be happy may I suggest you try the Sea bass?
http://sportsandgrits.com/
Look at their OPS, career progressions, ect.
You say “older player” like Yunel is 35 or something.
Yunel is in his prime. Drew is not.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Oct 2, 2011 1:18 AM EDT up reply actions
I have
it’s not like you have some set of numbers I’ve never seen. I’ll take Yunel all day, every day over Drew, same with Andrus. That you wouldn’t says enough, and call it “not letting go” all you want, I’ll call it just a “memory”, because this can fall right in line with some of the other Captain Insane-o ideas you’ve put out.
http://sportsandgrits.com/
I would take Yunel over Drew too. I wouldn’t take Andrus over him.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Oct 2, 2011 1:53 PM EDT up reply actions
And this isn't about Yunel either
for some reason, you threw him in. Why? Probably see below about not letting go, but whatever. the discussion was Drew vs. Andrus, and that last paragraph about being better in every possible way except slugging (with that being questionable going forward), is still accurate and undisputed.
http://sportsandgrits.com/
I used Yunel, because he was our last successful SS, and he and Stephen Drew match up favorably.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Oct 2, 2011 1:54 PM EDT up reply actions
Yes, he is favorable to Drew
younger, better defensively and it’s not close. Better offensively in every way except slugging (just like Sea Bass!)
http://sportsandgrits.com/
talking any position? If talking SS, I would say Castro of Cubs, that guy is going to be special(hell already is). Would say Tulo, but we all know Rocks aren’t dealing him. other positions, King Felix, and stud types since Teheran is a very good looking SP spect and cost controlled for 6 years. I have heard King Felix is avail, whether he is or not is another story. But, I feel that Teheran can be great, so I want a special player for him, otherwise I hang onto him, and that is what Wren will too.
braves#1
btw
not saying those are only guys, just special types like Castro, Tulo, King Felix. No reason to give up a stud spect in Teheran for freaking Stephen Drew or someone like him, that is absurd and I know that Wren won’t even consider it.
braves#1
Might be the dumbest thing you've posted here...
and considering some of the things you’ve posted, that’s saying something. That’s almost as out there as 200,000,000 buddy.
http://sportsandgrits.com/
I will say
It’s good to see that some things just never change. ;)
Most people use statistics the way a drunk would use a lamppost—for support, and not for illumination.
www.duwanis.com
I'd rather keep Teheran than Hanson...
hence why your first comment about “Hanson than Prado” missed the intent of the comment it was in response to. We need a SS, Prado doesn’t bring that, but Hanson and Jurrjens do. Maybe if we sign Cuddyer, Prado can be expendable, but with Chipper’s injuries, I think Prado’s versatility is a value you need to keep around. On the other hand, Hanson or Jurrjens, you can survive without one or the other, with Hudson, the kids, and the remaining one.
http://sportsandgrits.com/
a quality long term solution for SS is Pastornicky. Everything else will either cost too much in trade or too much money in FA. There just aren’t many quality SS in the league. They might need a stopgap if they think Pastornicky isn’t ready but anything more than a stopgap would be silly. With the state of MLB SS he has a chance to be in top half pretty quickly.
^^
Our only question, imo, is: who do we have playing SS to start in ’12? I doubt Pastornicky will be ready in April, but he might be good to call up after the ASG.
Most people use statistics the way a drunk would use a lamppost—for support, and not for illumination.
www.duwanis.com
Pastornicky, by all accounts I’ve read, does not have the arm to stick at SS.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Oct 1, 2011 5:20 PM EDT up reply actions
you can hope on the chance...
or you can deal from the excess starting pitching, replace that starter with no drop off in productivity if not an increase in productivity with a Teheran or Delgado, AND have a sure thing for an above average SS, not just a “chance” with a guy most seem to think can’t stick at the position nor will ever provide an above average bat.
http://sportsandgrits.com/
This
is completely idiotic. Not a rational word in the entire rant.
by Aaron Meier on Sep 30, 2011 10:40 PM EDT up reply actions
this is pretty idiotic.
Braves.
Falcons.
Gamecocks.
I would be real sad to see Prado go...
not because I think he’ll bounce back to his ‘10 stature, or because I think he could still be good off the bench – those are both difficult-to-impossible to judge right now – but because I love his attitude and think he’s a great guy in the clubhouse, etc., etc. He’s definitely one of my favorite players.
Most people use statistics the way a drunk would use a lamppost—for support, and not for illumination.
www.duwanis.com
News like this makes me happy to be a Braves fan
Somebody needed to be blamed for an epic fail like that and I’m glad to see they didn’t wait around to make it happen. Hell, if Fredi can’t get on the same page with FW, then you can go fishing with parrish.
Hypothetical thoughts about Francona?
I think he's about to be fired.
Hypothetical thoughts about Francona?
My middle name is Luck, so suck on this, Luck suckers.
Exactly
Your thoughts about him replacing Fred was what I meant
Not going to happen.
At least not to start 2012.
My middle name is Luck, so suck on this, Luck suckers.
Yep
If we gave a shit about winning we would have waited and tried to get francona. Who is actually capable of replacing Bobby. I would have fired Freddy after he said. “It is what it is”. I’m so sick of sitting around waiting for slumps to end while others begin. Keeping Freddie is a joke. And I do not have the inclination to explain why I feel this way. And i have many reasons. It’s a joke. Chipper deserves better than this. I have one question for anyone that wants to Argue with me. Do you think Freddie would have started Matt Moore in game one if he managed the Rays.
I don't think anyone would have started matt moore
but that is what makes Maddon such a good manager
Chopmaster: my link is my dad who has watched the braves since I don’t know. he’s 56.
It just amazes me that folks do not see that the managers that make the playoffs every year manage differently. Especially the ones that have lower pay roll. Also. If the manager doesn’t matter as much as Freddie let’s on. Let’s pay him fifty grand a year. He’ll I can set a line up and figure out a rotation. I’d do it for 250,000.
Joe Maddon didn’t exactly have a lot of options for game 1, when his best pitchers were used just to get to the playoffs. Moore certainly made him look like a genius, but it’s not like Maddon plucked him from a bevy of well-rested starters.
"Jason Heyward was a Greek philosopher reincarnated as a baseball player." - Don Sutton
Francona didn't exactly deserve the termination.
by TBuzz on Sep 30, 2011 4:11 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
it's one of the hazards on managing a big market team with a huge payroll
you’re expected to win every year. i mean it’s not his fault that papelbon and bard blew practically every save possible in september. the red sox were 2-19 in september when they scored less than 9 runs
But shit, he’s won the 2 titles that 100 years of managers couldn’t do. I hope they have luck finding that “manager with championship pedigree” or whatever bullshit the Yankees did to Torre after he started slipping in the standings a bit and wrote a book…
you would think that the manager who led his team to its first world series since babe ruth was traded would have a longer leash
shit he even added another world series. he has more world series titles that any red sock manager in over 80 years, but i guess that wasnt good enough
Soooooo
Who fills his spot until Chipper retires as a player?
Chipper can be the player-coach next year
in my opinion
by LEastCoastBears on Sep 30, 2011 4:04 PM EDT up reply actions
I honestly do not mind this.
He can teach patience and the importance of walks (something that Pendleton did). And he also can obviously help players with their swing (something it looked like Pendleton did not do well) .
All while Fredi is surrounded by a bunch of orangutans, trying to teach them how to bunt the rocks and coconuts that angry 300 lb gorillas are throwing at them,
by royhobbs on Jul 29, 2011 11:20 AM PDT
Strong Side / Weak Side: Chipper Jones
http://www.onionsportsnetwork.com/articles/chipper-jones,8431/
by Santaklose11 on Sep 30, 2011 4:08 PM EDT up reply actions
this is a fun idea but it will never happen.
Chipper doesn’t have the time to prepare for his own at-bats while fixing everyone else’s.
The Pirates are not going to trade Andrew McCutchen - please stop suggesting this.
by Pavy848 on Sep 30, 2011 5:31 PM EDT via iPhone app up reply actions
Could they just give Chipper a kicker in salary and save having to dish out money for a new coach and contract?
~ "Curve: The loveliest distance between two points." ~ Mae West ~
A hitting coach isn’t a mandatory roster slot. We don’t necessarily have to have someone with the title “hitting coach” so if Chipper were to just expand his role and not take a pay bump I think that’d be a wonderful thing. That’s a lot of responsibility for an aging veteran but Chipper can absolutely do it.
Sgt.: Pointed stick? Oh, oh, oh. We want to learn how to defend ourselves against pointed sticks, do we? Getting all high and mighty, eh? Fresh fruit not good enough for you eh? Well I'll tell you something my lad. When you're walking home tonight and some great homicidal maniac comes after you with a bunch of loganberries, don't come crying to me! Now, the passion fruit.
Chipper is the HC
Listen to any of the players talk, any time talk of bad habits or fixing a swing Chipper is always mentioned. If the Braves have to hire someone it should be Larry Jones Sr.
not surprised at all that Parrish is the fall guy
by LEastCoastBears on Sep 30, 2011 4:04 PM EDT reply actions
"Fall Guy" implies he didn't deserve it
It seems quite likely that he did.
by crimsonqueen9 on Sep 30, 2011 4:09 PM EDT up reply actions
I'm not sure he deserved it
Parrish is probably an average batting coach. He surely wasn’t inspirational enough to get the guys to hit. While there are probably better options (especially if the Braves FO is willing to spend some $), it could be more of the same next year, unfortunately (or by luck, Braves scoring more runs due to “clutch” hitting alas 2010).
by LEastCoastBears on Sep 30, 2011 4:36 PM EDT up reply actions
really!?! really!?!
What empirical evidence do you have to prove he was average? Did you watch the team this year? Parrish did nothing to fix the problem.
The Pirates are not going to trade Andrew McCutchen - please stop suggesting this.
by Pavy848 on Sep 30, 2011 5:35 PM EDT via iPhone app up reply actions
He had no experience as a MLB hitting coach. He had no idea what he was doing so I agree ludicrous to call him even average.
He had no experience as a hitting coach at ANY level
He was a manager in the minors for the Tigers organization since 1989.
there is a reason that I said “probably” but I agree that the overall lack of adjustment from most Braves hitter is not a good sign for Parrish’s ability
by LEastCoastBears on Sep 30, 2011 6:43 PM EDT up reply actions
They went out of their way to point out they didn't blame him for the collapse
…and they also documented a couple of very good reasons for getting rid of him, namely:
1) He seems to have trouble communicating his ideas and advice to the players.
2) He didn’t seem to have any good plans for helping some of the key players on the team moving forward.
So, I don’t think they’re trying to make him “the fall guy.” He wasn’t working out, and apparently hadn’t really been working out for most of the year.
Most people use statistics the way a drunk would use a lamppost—for support, and not for illumination.
www.duwanis.com
Exactly.
There was plenty of reason to dump Parrish without making him a scapegoat. It should have been done a while ago, in my opinion.
It’s okay to try a guy as hitting coach who’s never done it before, but based on this it seems like they realized it wasn’t working out a while ago… Didn’t need to wait until the season ended, in my opinion. But oh well. A new hitting coach probably wouldn’t have had time mid-season to fix things in time to make a difference.
The key now is who they hire to replace him. It needs to be someone who preaches patience.
"Yeah, and I have an enchanted jock strap." -- Karl Karlson
I now twitter as @junkstats and blog about made-up stats and general baseball stuff at JunkStats.
by Jacob Peterson on Oct 1, 2011 5:28 PM EDT up reply actions
I don't like to celebrate someone getting fired
but this was definitely the right move, and evreyone knew it
THANK YOU!!
We have finally taken the first step.
All while Fredi is surrounded by a bunch of orangutans, trying to teach them how to bunt the rocks and coconuts that angry 300 lb gorillas are throwing at them,
by royhobbs on Jul 29, 2011 11:20 AM PDT
Strong Side / Weak Side: Chipper Jones
http://www.onionsportsnetwork.com/articles/chipper-jones,8431/
And Gondee...
they may not all be on the same page, but Frank Wren is showing that HE is the boss here and I like that. Maybe Freddi needs to keep himself quiet lest he have no standing at all to make proclomations….
Again,
Wren confirmed Fredi’s original statement about keeping everyone before he obviuosly did a 180 on this. It was not a “Fredi Slapdown”.
by Aaron Meier on Sep 30, 2011 10:46 PM EDT up reply actions
A reader just emailed me this story of his encounter with Parrish:
I live in DC and was subjected to the final two games of that dreadful series (losses to Wang and Detwiler). I’m obsessed with the team, and before Saturday’s game, got there around 8 a.m. to see the players as they arrived. A couple of people called Larry over to sign a few autographs. I asked him about his mohawk pledge, and he laughed about it. But another fan asked him, and I’ll never forget it: “Who’s swinging it best right now?”
Larry paused for what had to have been 20 seconds without saying a word. He stared off into the distance. Then he smiled. He looked back at the guy who asked the question and said, “I dunno. Who do you think’s been swinging it best?”
For almost three weeks I’d known we were in trouble, but until that moment, I didn’t know it was hopeless.
Interesting.
by gondeee on Sep 30, 2011 4:14 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
I’ve been labeled an apologist, so please don’t anyone get up my craw for saying this…
I wish we took a lot less stock of things that are said in passing or at a press conference after its pretty damn apparent one or more players didn’t do their job, or the manager took a risk and failed. These people are human. A hitting coach doesn’t sit in his office and scroll through the stat pack to see who’s got the best this and the best that. Hopefully they are near a cage helping out the guy who isn’t swinging it the best.
A hitting coach doesn’t sit in his office and scroll through the stat pack to see who’s got the best this and the best that.
That is precisely what he should be doing when he is not in the batting cage. That is why the Rays and the Cardinals just took the wild card – because they do take time to look at advanced stats and scouting reports.
All while Fredi is surrounded by a bunch of orangutans, trying to teach them how to bunt the rocks and coconuts that angry 300 lb gorillas are throwing at them,
by royhobbs on Jul 29, 2011 11:20 AM PDT
Strong Side / Weak Side: Chipper Jones
http://www.onionsportsnetwork.com/articles/chipper-jones,8431/
by Santaklose11 on Sep 30, 2011 4:40 PM EDT up reply actions
Different animal altogether.
I don’t see the point in trying to draw parallels between the way someone coaches from their lack of PR skills. It’s just not a relevant issue. It is, however, just another angle from which to inject one’s anger. To think nobody in our organization are doing the things you mention is silly. The main issue is…the winners are more believable than the losers.
I’m not defending anyone’s job, I’m just refuting the rationale of using anecdotal situations to make judgments on a coach’s ability to coach…instead of the results.
It isn’t his lack of PR skills, or friendliness, obviously he engaged this fan and was pretty gracious with his face time, but it is his ignorance. And this isn’t purely statistical, nobody asked him who has the best OPS+ this month, but who is swinging the best, and I think anybody with a requisite knowledge can figure that out through regular batting practice, that he doesn’t know this is just a sign of incompetence.
Sgt.: Pointed stick? Oh, oh, oh. We want to learn how to defend ourselves against pointed sticks, do we? Getting all high and mighty, eh? Fresh fruit not good enough for you eh? Well I'll tell you something my lad. When you're walking home tonight and some great homicidal maniac comes after you with a bunch of loganberries, don't come crying to me! Now, the passion fruit.
I never said he was incompetent.
It’s just that people seem to be taking free reign on exploiting any and every little annoyance or issue, whether it is related or not to how they coach.
Maybe I’m a bit more “even-keeled” in how and where I apply my anger :)
I just think he should have an answer to it. I mean he has, supposedly, sent hours and hours watching the guys hit BP. Even he wanted an easy out he could have said something like “Well, consistency over the entire season has been a struggle for us all year.” or even just “Chipper” (regardless of if he believes it, that is an automatically acceptable answer)
It’s in a similar vein of not knowing who gets on base more between Schafer. McLouth and Heyward. You have to know these things to handle the team well, and makes me ask exactly what the hell they do on a daily basis.
Sgt.: Pointed stick? Oh, oh, oh. We want to learn how to defend ourselves against pointed sticks, do we? Getting all high and mighty, eh? Fresh fruit not good enough for you eh? Well I'll tell you something my lad. When you're walking home tonight and some great homicidal maniac comes after you with a bunch of loganberries, don't come crying to me! Now, the passion fruit.
I completely agree
If our coaches dont know in every inch of their bodies whos been swinging the best or who can draw walks the best, how can they honestly know what to do in a game(ie EVERY one of Fredis terrible decisions this year).
But if certain pieces of information (whether results or a comment) indicates incompetence then I think we are righteous in analyzing it, and incompetence is absolutely unacceptable, don’t you agree?
Sgt.: Pointed stick? Oh, oh, oh. We want to learn how to defend ourselves against pointed sticks, do we? Getting all high and mighty, eh? Fresh fruit not good enough for you eh? Well I'll tell you something my lad. When you're walking home tonight and some great homicidal maniac comes after you with a bunch of loganberries, don't come crying to me! Now, the passion fruit.
Maybe Fredi would better served to follow the Bobby Cox model
and just say nothing in your press conference after the game.
by TBuzz on Sep 30, 2011 5:22 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Would definitely help with his self-preservation. But I don’t see why it is unfathomable that we could have a manager who knows his team and the stats WHILE actually being an influence in the locker room
Sgt.: Pointed stick? Oh, oh, oh. We want to learn how to defend ourselves against pointed sticks, do we? Getting all high and mighty, eh? Fresh fruit not good enough for you eh? Well I'll tell you something my lad. When you're walking home tonight and some great homicidal maniac comes after you with a bunch of loganberries, don't come crying to me! Now, the passion fruit.
Considering the amount of conjecture and misinformation that gets spewed around here
that is purely motivated by a grudge against Fredi and his staff, it’s not hard for me to assume that such nonsense isnot isolated to TC, and I therefore have to take this fan’s account of the exchange with a grain of salt.
by Aaron Meier on Sep 30, 2011 10:50 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
LOL
That is why the Rays and the Cardinals just took the wild card – because they do take time to look at advanced stats and scouting reports.
Yep, that’s it. The Red Sox probably use sabermetrics more than anyone and they just had the worst collapse in baseball history.
'There are two pains in life. There is the pain of discipline and the pain of disappointment. If you can handle the pain of discipline, then you'll never have to deal with the pain of disappointment,'- Nick Saban
Sabermetrics itself can become an orthodoxy. The game has changed from 5 years ago, the value of the statistics can change also.
This is why I’ve said the arguments behind bunting always being bad may need to be looked at. Not because of some tradition, but because I question whether the numbers from the last decade are relevant to today’s game. Today’s game is much more pitching/defense friendly.
The numbers will swing back in a few years though most likely, and bunting will be bad again.
Statistics are extremely useful.
Problem is that too many fans believe real baseball teams can win the same way rotisserie teams do. Advance scouts do a hell of a lot more than chart pitches and note which direction a batter hits a two-strike curve. They also watch pitchers and hitters to look for nuances and things they can exploit based on what the player is doing right then. Baseball players are human and the good ones make adjustments when the league adjusts to them (we shall see if Mr. Heyward can next season, I certainly hope so). Stats measure only previous performance and don’t allow for any changes in approach.
'There are two pains in life. There is the pain of discipline and the pain of disappointment. If you can handle the pain of discipline, then you'll never have to deal with the pain of disappointment,'- Nick Saban
Stats are useful when used correctly. I just don’t think it’s correct to use steroid era stats in today’s game.
I could see that.
Still say that coaches and those who have been around the game can see new exposed flaws or changes in approach by watching a player and predict when performance will change before it shows up in the stats though, especially hitters against certain types of pitches.
'There are two pains in life. There is the pain of discipline and the pain of disappointment. If you can handle the pain of discipline, then you'll never have to deal with the pain of disappointment,'- Nick Saban
Semi-related
Was I the only one who saw Moneyball that was kind of annoyed by how they portrayed the scouts in that movie? I know they didn’t have a lot of time to set up their points and everything, but they made it sound like all scouts do is judge how pretty a player looks and make guesses about how much ‘work’ he might need.
Most people use statistics the way a drunk would use a lamppost—for support, and not for illumination.
www.duwanis.com
I haven’t seen it yet, but maybe I’ll go tonight.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Oct 1, 2011 2:32 PM EDT up reply actions
It was a really good movie
that was pretty much the only thing that I didn’t like about it, and it was pretty minor.
…OK, well, there was another thing I didn’t like: they could’ve done a better job picking an actor to look like Huddy.
Most people use statistics the way a drunk would use a lamppost—for support, and not for illumination.
www.duwanis.com
Yea but he should know this stuff. I mean what does he think his job is exactly? If he isn’t helping with the swing and adjustments (I never heard anyone say that intensive time with Larry-Parrish at least, see what I did there- helped anything) and isn’t helping with stat stuff, then wtf is he doing?
And human being though he may be, he is a professional at the top of his field, complacency and inadequacy cannot be tolerated just to spare his feelings.
We really aren’t trying to stick it to you either or gang up on you, but consider that you are putting yourself out there at the worst possible time. I respect your loyalty and humanity, truly, but you have paid your dues, and I’m not sure they have done anything worth defending beyond hollow loyalty.
Sgt.: Pointed stick? Oh, oh, oh. We want to learn how to defend ourselves against pointed sticks, do we? Getting all high and mighty, eh? Fresh fruit not good enough for you eh? Well I'll tell you something my lad. When you're walking home tonight and some great homicidal maniac comes after you with a bunch of loganberries, don't come crying to me! Now, the passion fruit.
Actually Uggla said that Larry Parrish helped him
tweak his swing to get the ball to travel a little further. No way am I defending Parrish here, because he obviously failed in almost every other responsibility as a hitting coach and his hitting philosophy made us the laughing stock of MLB…but he did help Uggla hit the ball further, or so said Uggla…
All while Fredi is surrounded by a bunch of orangutans, trying to teach them how to bunt the rocks and coconuts that angry 300 lb gorillas are throwing at them,
by royhobbs on Jul 29, 2011 11:20 AM PDT
Strong Side / Weak Side: Chipper Jones
http://www.onionsportsnetwork.com/articles/chipper-jones,8431/
by Santaklose11 on Sep 30, 2011 6:15 PM EDT up reply actions
Well they certainly increased in Homers. The massive problem was that homers were all they tried to hit.
IIRC, wasn’t it Chipper that worked with Uggla right before the turn-around?
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Sep 30, 2011 6:17 PM EDT up reply actions
I remember them interviewing Uggla on Braves Live!
later in the season (I believe after he hit HR # 34) and him say that Parrish helped him tweak his swing to make the ball travel a little further of the bat. Again I repeat: I am no NO WAY defending Larry Parrish, but just stating what Uggla said in a post game interview once this season.
All while Fredi is surrounded by a bunch of orangutans, trying to teach them how to bunt the rocks and coconuts that angry 300 lb gorillas are throwing at them,
by royhobbs on Jul 29, 2011 11:20 AM PDT
Strong Side / Weak Side: Chipper Jones
http://www.onionsportsnetwork.com/articles/chipper-jones,8431/
by Santaklose11 on Sep 30, 2011 6:56 PM EDT up reply actions
I think you could easily replace “Larry” with “Fredi” in that story. Same would apply to both.
by aaaaandTheBravesWin on Sep 30, 2011 4:21 PM EDT up reply actions
The Fredi school of ostrich managing Class of…well what year do you think it is?
Sgt.: Pointed stick? Oh, oh, oh. We want to learn how to defend ourselves against pointed sticks, do we? Getting all high and mighty, eh? Fresh fruit not good enough for you eh? Well I'll tell you something my lad. When you're walking home tonight and some great homicidal maniac comes after you with a bunch of loganberries, don't come crying to me! Now, the passion fruit.
How does this square
with what Fredi said yesterday ESPECIALLY what he said about not throwing someone to the wolves? Something doesn’t seem right here.
This reminds me of the movie National Treasure (the first one)
“Somebody’s going to prison”
"Forget Roy Halladay or Clayton Kershaw or Cliff Lee, the NL Cy Young Award should go to O’Ventrel." - David Schoenfield, ESPN.com, 8/19/11
LP does deserve some credit.
He made TP look good, when no one thought that was possible. Now people are actually looking back fondly at the TP era, when last year, fans couldn’t wait to get rid of him.
My middle name is Luck, so suck on this, Luck suckers.
So funny, yet so true...
I was just thinking about this today. I’m sitting at work still pissed that we didn’t make the playoffs, and I couldn’t stop thinking how much better we were with TP. The OBP was so great with him as hitting coach. After this season I don’t mind if we re-hire TP as hitting coach. That’s how bad this season sucked under LP.
by CaliforniaBrave on Sep 30, 2011 4:30 PM EDT up reply actions
I was thinking about that too
and I would take TP in a heart beat over LP….then again that may not be saying much…
All while Fredi is surrounded by a bunch of orangutans, trying to teach them how to bunt the rocks and coconuts that angry 300 lb gorillas are throwing at them,
by royhobbs on Jul 29, 2011 11:20 AM PDT
Strong Side / Weak Side: Chipper Jones
http://www.onionsportsnetwork.com/articles/chipper-jones,8431/
by Santaklose11 on Sep 30, 2011 6:17 PM EDT up reply actions
sometimes you don't know what you have until
you have something really shitty.
Braves.
Falcons.
Gamecocks.
GLORY HALLELUJAH!
THERE IS A (BASEBALL) GOD!
It was a particularly small egg...thats why I asked.
by thenightstallion on Sep 30, 2011 4:29 PM EDT reply actions
I'm starting to hope we don't trade Prado. He was so valuable last year
Myabe Parrish really messed with his swing/mentality. I would like to see how he does next year with a different hitting coach
Prado
Needs to hit lower in the order. He seemed to thrive as a 6/7 hitter.
He certainly doesn’t belong in the 2 spot, even with his .350 OBP.
Give me Heyward there any day.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Sep 30, 2011 5:15 PM EDT up reply actions
But how will Heyward get RIBz if he bats second?
Geez Justin. What are you thinkin’? :)
Most people use statistics the way a drunk would use a lamppost—for support, and not for illumination.
www.duwanis.com
Assuming Heyward returns to 2010 form.
'There are two pains in life. There is the pain of discipline and the pain of disappointment. If you can handle the pain of discipline, then you'll never have to deal with the pain of disappointment,'- Nick Saban
Actually, even with '11 form
I’d rather have Heyward at the 2-spot than Prado.
Most people use statistics the way a drunk would use a lamppost—for support, and not for illumination.
www.duwanis.com
Unless Prado returns to 2008-2010 form.
'There are two pains in life. There is the pain of discipline and the pain of disappointment. If you can handle the pain of discipline, then you'll never have to deal with the pain of disappointment,'- Nick Saban
I just don’t see that happening.
I’ve maintained all along that Prado is too dependent on BABIP.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Oct 1, 2011 5:37 PM EDT up reply actions
I don’t think he’ll be as bad as he was this year, but I don’t think he’ll be as good as those years either.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Oct 1, 2011 5:38 PM EDT up reply actions
but considering his arb
now considers him a well below average OF, and not an above average 2B, AND you kind of need someone with his versatility for when Chipper goes down, because it’s easier to get a quality backup at LF who doesn’t drop production from Prado than a 3B to fill in for Chipper, I’m holding Prado.
http://sportsandgrits.com/
He was damn consistent for three years though.
Established himself pretty well as a .350/.460 guy.
'There are two pains in life. There is the pain of discipline and the pain of disappointment. If you can handle the pain of discipline, then you'll never have to deal with the pain of disappointment,'- Nick Saban
There’s no denying that.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Oct 1, 2011 5:39 PM EDT up reply actions
I think when he gets to swing the bat he way he wants to
he hits well enough to manufacture a nice BABIP.
Most people use statistics the way a drunk would use a lamppost—for support, and not for illumination.
www.duwanis.com
Definitely a line drive/gap hitter.
'There are two pains in life. There is the pain of discipline and the pain of disappointment. If you can handle the pain of discipline, then you'll never have to deal with the pain of disappointment,'- Nick Saban
Until he starts worrying about moving runners and all that crap.
I never really noticed it until Joe Simpson started pointing it out during games, and then it became kind of obvious how much of his mechanics were different if runners were on this year.
Most people use statistics the way a drunk would use a lamppost—for support, and not for illumination.
www.duwanis.com
"Shorten up, give yourself up, yada, yada, yada..."
'There are two pains in life. There is the pain of discipline and the pain of disappointment. If you can handle the pain of discipline, then you'll never have to deal with the pain of disappointment,'- Nick Saban
Yeah
of course, Joe was talking about it like it was a good thing that Prado was doing that. Which always kind of pissed me off. But it was elucidating.
Most people use statistics the way a drunk would use a lamppost—for support, and not for illumination.
www.duwanis.com
The stats don't support this though
It’s a good theory, but for his career, he has hit .308 .350 .405 .755 with runners on, and with no runners on, he has hit .293 .341 .434 .775 - that’s really not a big difference.
And as far as moving runners over, he has actually hit better than his career numbers with a runner on 1st. – .334 .358 .433 .792
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Oct 1, 2011 5:48 PM EDT up reply actions
It's a hard thing to judge statistically
I don’t think it’s been a career-long issue of how he handles himself when runners are on. I think it’s an issue where he tried to adjust his approach because Fredi put him in the 2-slot and said “you need to move the runner over.”
Maybe that didn’t happen. Just the impression I got while watching him bat this year.
Most people use statistics the way a drunk would use a lamppost—for support, and not for illumination.
www.duwanis.com
I just don’t know how else to look into that other than the actual statistics.
Maybe I should look at something beyond slash stats – maybe his pitches-per-PA, or his K%, GB%, etc.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Oct 1, 2011 5:52 PM EDT up reply actions
Or stats in the two hole?
Could be a mentality shift I guess.
'There are two pains in life. There is the pain of discipline and the pain of disappointment. If you can handle the pain of discipline, then you'll never have to deal with the pain of disappointment,'- Nick Saban
His stats outside of leadoff, 6 and 8 are all pretty blah.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Oct 1, 2011 5:56 PM EDT up reply actions
Well, we have the stats, really
which are that he kind of sucked this year. I’m just trying to put a ‘why’ to it. It’s more of a personal/motivation thing, so it’s hard to judge with straight numbers. I readily admit that there’s no way to prove my theory, I can just point at the video and talk about how he seemed to change his approach a lot over this past year.
Most people use statistics the way a drunk would use a lamppost—for support, and not for illumination.
www.duwanis.com
I'm more confident in Prado to rebound than Heyward
because he did it for three years at the MLB level. Heyward barely played in the high minors and had a great rookie year. Big difference. Of course, I hope both do, and Heyward has a helluva greater ceiling. Might have a lower floor though if he can’t adjust.
'There are two pains in life. There is the pain of discipline and the pain of disappointment. If you can handle the pain of discipline, then you'll never have to deal with the pain of disappointment,'- Nick Saban
I think we’ve seen the bottom of Heyward’s floor, and it was much better than Prado’s.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Oct 1, 2011 5:57 PM EDT up reply actions
Please stop
Heyward wasn’t “much better” than Prado this past year. They BOTH had bad years, and no way can anyone support an argument that Heyward was much better than Prado, because that is a lie. If you want to say Heyward was better than Prado, then by all means say it, cause I won’t argue. But, I WILL argue about the much better part that you said, cause that simply isn’t true.
braves#1
Heyward – .227 .319 .389 .708 (2.2 WAR)
Prado – .260 .302 .385 .687 (1.6 WAR)
Heyward was better in ever offensive category, save AVG, and when you factor in that he is one of the best defensive RFers in the game, and Prado was below average in LF, yes, you can say that Heyward was much better.
Heyward put up more WAR in limited playing time, vs Prado playing nearly every day.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Oct 1, 2011 8:22 PM EDT up reply actions
sure he didn’t play as much, but his stats weren’t super better. You can’t tell me if he had same many AB’s that his OBP was gonna suddenly go to .330 or so. Maybe it might have, maybe not, but no proof either way. Only thing that would have went up is homers, OPS, since Prado isn’t really a home run hitter, and OPS helps you if you can hit them more, and that’s what Heyward can do more of. Sorry, but I don’t buy your argument, and we will just need to leave it at that. Just no way I will say Heyward was much better.
braves#1
His OBP since getting back into the lineup was .350
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Oct 1, 2011 9:39 PM EDT up reply actions
when was this? I believe you are talking about what end of august or beginning of september. You can easily say he was on a hot streak too. Sorry, but it’s an asinine statement to say Heyward was “much better” than Prado. Keep digging the stats as you see fit, but it isn’t proving that Heyward was much better. That’s the problem with this. If you want to say Heyward was “better” and leave it at that, then ok, I won’t even think to say you’re wrong. But, to say Heyward was “much better” than Prado is simply not true. Perhaps your definition of much and my definition is “much” different.
braves#1
Ok. How 'bout their WAR?
Heyward’s WAR is better than Prado’s in significantly less playing time.
So, how can you deny that he was much better overall?
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Oct 1, 2011 11:25 PM EDT up reply actions
2.2 WAR to 1.6 WAR and the one with 2.2 WAR means he is “much better”, that doesn’t make sense to me. I don’t have a problem with you saying Heyward had a better year. And to the point about the less playing time. Well dude, who is to say if Heyward got almost the same amount of AB’s that his WAR wouldn’t be 2.4 or something. You have no proof his WAR would be significantly better. Heyward isn’t even a one full WAR player better than Prado. Sorry dude, but no way in hell that Heyward had a “much better” year than Prado, you bringing up WAR doesn’t even help the argument here. You have absolutely zero stat or stats that can prove Heyward as being much better.
My definition of a “much better” player is a 4.5-5 WAR player to say a 2.5 WAR player. To me, that 4.5-5 WAR player is a much better player than the 2.5 WAR player. In the case of Heyward and Prado, it is clearly that Heyward had the “better” year, leave off the “much” part, and we are in agreement, otherwise no way I can almost come close to an agreement.
braves#1
Heyward – 396 PAs
Prado – 590 PAs
.8 WAR in about 200 fewer PAs is quite substantial.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Oct 2, 2011 1:19 AM EDT up reply actions
Lord have mercy. You just digging up stats that fit your argument. First off show consistency:
Heyward – 454 PA’s
Prado – 590 PA’s
which equals to 136 less PA’s for Heyward. It’s a difference, but not the 200 that you make it out to be.
Heyward – 396 AB’s
Prado – 551 AB’s
which equals to 155 less AB’s for Heyward.
So, for future reference, if you are going to dig ONE stat, please compare both and not use one stat for one, and then another stat for the other. Hopefully this was a mistake on your part, I will assume it was for now. Regardless of either stat here, you can’t assume Heyward would have .8 WAR just because of this. You have no proof at all to back this up, just your assumptions, and sorry but your assumptions don’t mean jack shit when evaluating what WAR he “could” potentially get.
braves#1
It was a mistake. I got the numbers mixed up.
But the point still stands, and no, I am not “digging” for something that supports my argument. I don’t form an opinion, then find stats to prove it.
I look at the stats, then form an opinion.
A difference in WAR of .6 with that many fewer ABs is quite significant when understanding that the guy with fewer ABs/PAs was more valuable than the other guy.
If two guys had 400 PAs and there was a .6 difference in WAR, you would say that one guy was a little better than the other guy.
When a player (Heyward) has about 33% fewer PAs, but a .6 higher WAR, you could say he was “MUCH” better than the other guy (Prado).
I don’t make the stats up. They are what they are.
If you disagree with the stats, there’s really nothing I can say at this point.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Oct 2, 2011 2:32 AM EDT up reply actions
you just saying he could get to .6 WAR, you don’t know that lol. And when he was benched in August, he was struggling bad. He could have easily had only a .2 WAR instead of the .6. Just please spare me dude, you just making numbers up and you’re wrong. Find me factual proof that he is a 2.8 WAR player, find it, FIND IT!!! otherwise, shutup about it, cause you have no proof.
braves#1
Heyward actually HAD .6 WAR more. That’s my point.
At no time have I said what Heyward COULD have had, if given the chance.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Oct 2, 2011 1:54 PM EDT up reply actions
“.8 WAR in about 200 fewer PAs is quite substantial.”
That’s what you said, so why you say .8 WAR then, when he didn’t have that? So it looked like you were trying to predict his WAR if playing the same PAs.
braves#1
It was a typo. I’ve said “.8” once. Every other time, I’ve said “.6”
At no time have I said “If Heyward had played more he would have X WAR more!”
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Oct 2, 2011 2:46 PM EDT up reply actions
One more thing
I’m not sure why you are even mentioning what WAR Heyward “could” get.
I never said anything about what he COULD have done. I only mention what he did do, and that was outperform Prado in WAR with 33% fewer opportunities.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Oct 2, 2011 2:34 AM EDT up reply actions
and yet he still wasn’t “much better”, that is the problem. Was Heyward better? I already admitted that he was, but he was NOT much better like you seem to say. And yes you did say what he COULD have done. You are trying to add more to his WAR, so yes you most certainly are. Adding more to his WAR would be meaning he is much better and trying to add to your argument and strengthen it. This isn’t working with me, maybe we need to just finish this cause you aren’t changing my mind. I would def admit when I am wrong, but you can’t bring any factual information on here to support your argument about Heyward “much better” THIS season than Prado.
braves#1
I have no idea what you are talking about.
In 33% fewer ABs, Heyward had .6 more WAR than Prado.
That’s significant.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Oct 2, 2011 1:55 PM EDT up reply actions
thought you meant he could have .6 more WAR if he had the same amount of playing time as Prado had… I don’t buy .6 more total WAR making a player “much better”, sorry I don’t buy it.
braves#1
He had .6 WAR more in 33% fewer chances.
That IS substantial.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Oct 2, 2011 2:47 PM EDT up reply actions
I debate it being substantial. He could have ended up 10% fewer chances and WAR could have been only .8 WAR more, just because it was fewer chances doesn’t man Heyward would have drastically gotten a much better WAR if had same amount of PAs. I already agreed many times with you that Heyward was better, just not the much better part.
braves#1
But he was much better. He outperformed Prado in 1/3 of the playing time. We don’t even have to play the “what if he played more” game.
He was definitively better in much less playing time.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Oct 2, 2011 3:05 PM EDT up reply actions
There is literally nothing that Prado does better than Heyward in baseball.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Oct 2, 2011 3:05 PM EDT up reply actions
and Prado was playing while he was struggling like shit, and Heyward actually got some time off to heal from his injuries and while he was stinking up the place. That’s the thing you ignore, sorry but we ending this now. You can think he is much better all you want, but it won’t prove that he was.
braves#1
Allow us to look at the numbers.
Let’s see what Heyward would have posted with equal ABs, assuming he would have played at the same pace:
551/396 = 1.391
1.6 * 1.391 = 2.23 WAR for Heyward
Exactly the same with rounding.
I do agree that Heyward is the superior player with the much higher potential, but in 2011 both he and Prado stunk.
by crimsonqueen9 on Oct 2, 2011 5:18 PM EDT up reply actions
Right, I admitted that Heyward had the better year, and that he is a better overall player, my beef was that justin said Heyward had a “much better” year than Prado. That’s just where I don’t agree at all. I think Heyward and Prado will rebound nicely in 2012 and both show what they can do on the field.
braves#1
But there's a marked difference for 2011
.265/.311/.424 with the bases empty.
.251/.288/.319 with men on.
That’s a pretty significant difference. You can regress that a bit because neither of those sample sizes are very large, but there’s something to it besides just random chance. Keep in mind that almost every player in the league hits better with men on than bases empty-because of the defense needing to adjust for the runners, and because many pitchers are better out of the windi-up. Hitting worse at all is worth noticing, and hitting MUCH worse seems to indicate problems.
Perhaps problems that can be attributed to coaching and managing philosophy?
My buddy and I just decided that the braves would be set if we could get Matt Kemp, Jose Reyes, and Albert Pujols.
by willlinn on May 17, 2011 2:13 PM EDT
No, I'm kinda serious
I think Prado feels a lot of pressure to “move the runner over” if he’s batting second, and that causes him to change his plate approach a lot. I think part of the reason he did so well in ’10, for example, was that he was batting leadoff – his only real job was “get on base.”
Most people use statistics the way a drunk would use a lamppost—for support, and not for illumination.
www.duwanis.com
right, I think same thing. Wasn’t he batting half the year last year in the leadoff spot? Not saying he should bat leadoff, cause we have Bourn, but I think Prado should bat 6th in the order honestly, cause I think he feels the need to advance Bourn if he gets on. I think consistently batting 6th would really help him, and plus didn’t help that he had to learn a new position in LF as well. I think Prado struggling was more than meets the eye and what his statistics says.
braves#1
Prado only had 22 ab's batting 6th
his numbers werent steller at all in his 12 or so ab’s batting 7th
Chopmaster: my link is my dad who has watched the braves since I don’t know. he’s 56.
Great start
Fire Fredi Gonzalez
"It looks like The Hound of the Baskervilles out there." - Steve Stone
"...I'm reminded of Wuthering Heights." - Harry Caray
~
Gaby Sanchez - 1, Nyjer Morgan - 0
by Chief Noc-A-Homa on Sep 30, 2011 4:34 PM EDT reply actions
I hate to celebrate a guy losing his job in this economy......
but dammit, I can’t contain myself.
by a hooter's baby on Sep 30, 2011 4:38 PM EDT reply actions
READING THIS WAS SO FLL OF WIN
OMFG
I pray to Jason Heyward every night
by JasonHeywardisGod on Sep 30, 2011 4:41 PM EDT reply actions
DOB:
ajcbraves
#Braves GM Wren made decision to fire Parrish after meeting w/ him Thur. afternoon and not being satisfied w/ Parrish’s answers, etc
My middle name is Luck, so suck on this, Luck suckers.
wow interesting
"What up? We're three cool guys looking for other cool guys who wanna hang out in our party mansion. Nothing sexual. Dudes in good shape encouraged. If you're fat, you should be able to find humor in the little things." Again, NOTHING SEXUAL
"I'd rather jerk off a tiger in a phone booth than draft Cam"
-Mel Kiper, Jr.
you guys are like a bunch of pirahnas
by chop goes da weazel on Mar 31, 2011 12:32 PM PDT
yea right?
something so straight forward and simple..
someone give that man a contract extension
It was a particularly small egg...thats why I asked.
by thenightstallion on Sep 30, 2011 4:45 PM EDT up reply actions
Wren: "Who do you think swung it best for the season
Larry paused for what had to have been 20 seconds without saying a word. He stared off into the distance. Then he smiled. He looked back at Frank Wren.
Larry: I don’t know. Who do you think?
by a hooter's baby on Sep 30, 2011 4:47 PM EDT up reply actions 15 recs
hahahaha…
People will come Ray. The one constant through all the years, Ray, has been baseball. America has rolled by like an army of steamrollers. It has been erased like a blackboard, rebuilt and erased again. But baseball has marked the time. This field, this game: it's a part of our past, Ray. It reminds of us of all that once was good and it could be again.
Green it up!
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Sep 30, 2011 5:17 PM EDT up reply actions
hahaha
"Don't put off til tomorrow what you can put off til the day after tomorrow." -Mark Twain
by SouthernPanther on Oct 1, 2011 6:29 PM EDT up reply actions
Holding people accountable!!! Go Frank Wren.
by another simpsons avatar on Sep 30, 2011 5:00 PM EDT up reply actions
This Wren fella seems good
We should keep him around for a while
by crimsonqueen9 on Sep 30, 2011 6:29 PM EDT up reply actions
Well, this morning I was threatening to quit being a Braves fan if Heyward was traded and Parrish was kept. Those threats are now gone. (but they better not trade Heyward without getting something DAMN good in return that they shouldn’t be able to get)
Kemp if we can extend him?
I could actually see that happening.
'There are two pains in life. There is the pain of discipline and the pain of disappointment. If you can handle the pain of discipline, then you'll never have to deal with the pain of disappointment,'- Nick Saban
Put a checkmark for me in the very happy about this column.
whether it was all him or not, something had to be done. the hitting should not have gotten worse with – arguably – a better lineup this year.
HALLELUJAH!
Sgt.: Pointed stick? Oh, oh, oh. We want to learn how to defend ourselves against pointed sticks, do we? Getting all high and mighty, eh? Fresh fruit not good enough for you eh? Well I'll tell you something my lad. When you're walking home tonight and some great homicidal maniac comes after you with a bunch of loganberries, don't come crying to me! Now, the passion fruit.
Frank Wren: And to Fredi Gonzalez, keep your mouth shut.
Sgt.: Pointed stick? Oh, oh, oh. We want to learn how to defend ourselves against pointed sticks, do we? Getting all high and mighty, eh? Fresh fruit not good enough for you eh? Well I'll tell you something my lad. When you're walking home tonight and some great homicidal maniac comes after you with a bunch of loganberries, don't come crying to me! Now, the passion fruit.
Frank Wren is NOT effing around
mlbbowman Mark Bowman
Wren said he does not currently see Lowe in the rotation next year
mlbbowman Mark Bowman
Wren also said the club has never talked about trading Heyward. But he also said Heyward is not guaranteed to start in right next year.
by atl192485 on Sep 30, 2011 4:47 PM EDT reply actions 8 recs
Me thinks - someone is none to happy not to be playing in October.
~ "Curve: The loveliest distance between two points." ~ Mae West ~
Oh yeah. And I like this side of him.
You shouldn’t sip liquor.
-justincredubil02
no, Jack Daniel is whiskey.
-ChopMaster
"Welcome to the show, Brandon Beachy. I think you’re going to stay a while."
He wasted no time at all making sure we know who speaks for the organization.
~ "Curve: The loveliest distance between two points." ~ Mae West ~
Too bad he’s not the guy making the line-up cards, too. Couldn’t be any worse than Fredi.
"It looks like The Hound of the Baskervilles out there." - Steve Stone
"...I'm reminded of Wuthering Heights." - Harry Caray
~
Gaby Sanchez - 1, Nyjer Morgan - 0
by Chief Noc-A-Homa on Sep 30, 2011 8:00 PM EDT up reply actions
It's about time too
With Bobby being the last guy from the “dynasty” Braves to go (unless you count Chipper), I like that this is Frank Wren’s show now, and he’s making some people accountable.
Although it started a couple weeks early, I’m looking forward to this offseason.
by hoboken_wood on Sep 30, 2011 8:20 PM EDT up reply actions
Except he was for it before he was against it.
by Aaron Meier on Sep 30, 2011 10:56 PM EDT up reply actions
Love it, go after it like an angry honey badger Frankie.
Sgt.: Pointed stick? Oh, oh, oh. We want to learn how to defend ourselves against pointed sticks, do we? Getting all high and mighty, eh? Fresh fruit not good enough for you eh? Well I'll tell you something my lad. When you're walking home tonight and some great homicidal maniac comes after you with a bunch of loganberries, don't come crying to me! Now, the passion fruit.
by GumpBrave on Sep 30, 2011 4:48 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
Honey badger don’t care, honey badger don’t give a shit
Freeman isn’t on Heyward’s level in terms of tools, skills, or baseball IQ–but it’s fair to say Freeman has failed to meet the modest expectations in place for him - Capitol Avenue Club (May 28th, 2011)
by ATLandUNC on Sep 30, 2011 5:28 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
Rec'd
hopefully it shows up as a rec not a flag
All while Fredi is surrounded by a bunch of orangutans, trying to teach them how to bunt the rocks and coconuts that angry 300 lb gorillas are throwing at them,
by royhobbs on Jul 29, 2011 11:20 AM PDT
Strong Side / Weak Side: Chipper Jones
http://www.onionsportsnetwork.com/articles/chipper-jones,8431/
by Santaklose11 on Sep 30, 2011 6:19 PM EDT up reply actions
flagarec
You shouldn’t sip liquor.
-justincredubil02
no, Jack Daniel is whiskey.
-ChopMaster
"Welcome to the show, Brandon Beachy. I think you’re going to stay a while."
Flex that muscle baby!
It was a particularly small egg...thats why I asked.
by thenightstallion on Sep 30, 2011 4:48 PM EDT up reply actions
Buster Olney
should be slapped with a bag of nickels
by a hooter's baby on Sep 30, 2011 4:48 PM EDT up reply actions
Oh please pick me.
Sgt.: Pointed stick? Oh, oh, oh. We want to learn how to defend ourselves against pointed sticks, do we? Getting all high and mighty, eh? Fresh fruit not good enough for you eh? Well I'll tell you something my lad. When you're walking home tonight and some great homicidal maniac comes after you with a bunch of loganberries, don't come crying to me! Now, the passion fruit.
Half of this makes me squeel like a little school girl, and the other half makes me cry like a 3 year old.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Sep 30, 2011 5:17 PM EDT up reply actions
I’m totally okay with Heyward not being guaranteed a starting spot. At the very least it might inspire him, but I don’t forsee an actual situation (barring some ridiculous off-season acquisition) where Heyward isn’t starting opening day. But just saying it has some value
Sgt.: Pointed stick? Oh, oh, oh. We want to learn how to defend ourselves against pointed sticks, do we? Getting all high and mighty, eh? Fresh fruit not good enough for you eh? Well I'll tell you something my lad. When you're walking home tonight and some great homicidal maniac comes after you with a bunch of loganberries, don't come crying to me! Now, the passion fruit.
I can completely see them starting Constanza over Heyward – even though Heyward has just as much speed.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Sep 30, 2011 5:24 PM EDT up reply actions
This.
Constanza just looks fast. He’s not as fast as people make him out to be, although don’t get me wrong, he can still beat most guys in a race any day of the week, but his unconventional craziness makes him look faster than he is. I also don’t expect him to make the squad out of spring training. We saw what he really was after he cooled.
It was a particularly small egg...thats why I asked.
by thenightstallion on Sep 30, 2011 5:26 PM EDT up reply actions
Don’t you know that he “never came back to earth?”
I kid you not, someone in another thread made that claim – despite the fact that his OPS was somewhere in the .500s since mid-August.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Sep 30, 2011 5:28 PM EDT up reply actions
Hmmm...
could they mean he went so far below what a normal player would do he actually skipped the coming back to earth phase and went even lower? Surely they don’t think a guy that didn’t reach base after September 5 was still on fire.
It was a particularly small egg...thats why I asked.
by thenightstallion on Sep 30, 2011 5:29 PM EDT up reply actions
They blamed it on Heyward getting the starting job back.
I was incredulous. They actually believed his 3 week magical run was the real Constanza, despite what his entire career has shown.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Sep 30, 2011 5:30 PM EDT up reply actions
Even Fredi was saying something to the effect of
“I wonder if we would’ve won the wildcard if I’d kept starting Constanza.”
I boggled.
Most people use statistics the way a drunk would use a lamppost—for support, and not for illumination.
www.duwanis.com
No, Fredi. You wouldn’t have. Because Constanza was terrible after his magical 3-week run.
At least Heyward was consistent all season.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Oct 1, 2011 2:33 PM EDT up reply actions
yea after he got hurt and was then benched
by PhuckthePhillies on Oct 1, 2011 3:56 PM EDT up reply actions
If you're talking about Constanza...
he was 2-for-16 in the 6 games he started before spraining his ankle. His return to earth happened well before Fredi was forced to bench him.
Most people use statistics the way a drunk would use a lamppost—for support, and not for illumination.
www.duwanis.com
This
But, people are going to make some other excuse for that, I’m sure.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Oct 1, 2011 5:20 PM EDT up reply actions
And after Heyward got hurt and was benched, he still OPSd in the .700s
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Oct 1, 2011 5:21 PM EDT up reply actions
.351 OPS in May
.708 OPS in June
.694 OPS in July
.639 OPS in August
.739 OPS in September
'There are two pains in life. There is the pain of discipline and the pain of disappointment. If you can handle the pain of discipline, then you'll never have to deal with the pain of disappointment,'- Nick Saban
I don’t at all, unless Heyward just falls off the wagon or something happens off the field. If Heyward handles himself correctly then the job is his and always will be. But you don’t tell a guy that. Heyward has, for the first time in his life, not been overwhelmingly dominant at baseball, that’s gotta be a shock to him and we’re going to learn a lot about him this off-season I think. I believe he is the real deal and the Atlanta FO has to see it, but that doesn’t mean you tell him that he is the second coming and can do no wrong, that in my opinion, would be the real mistake.
Sgt.: Pointed stick? Oh, oh, oh. We want to learn how to defend ourselves against pointed sticks, do we? Getting all high and mighty, eh? Fresh fruit not good enough for you eh? Well I'll tell you something my lad. When you're walking home tonight and some great homicidal maniac comes after you with a bunch of loganberries, don't come crying to me! Now, the passion fruit.
by GumpBrave on Sep 30, 2011 5:46 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Heyward has, for the first time in his life, not been overwhelmingly dominant at baseball
That’s exactly why it was completely stupid to bench him. That was such a short-sighted move.
Lucky for Fredi, Georgie had the month of his career when the move was made.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Sep 30, 2011 5:51 PM EDT up reply actions
Well you act like the prolonged benching is totally independent of George’s incredible month. If George doesn’t have that month Heyward gets a lot more playing time. In the mean time, couldn’t you argue that it would be incredibly unfair to not let George play when he is finally tasting the big leagues and playing out of his mind.
Sgt.: Pointed stick? Oh, oh, oh. We want to learn how to defend ourselves against pointed sticks, do we? Getting all high and mighty, eh? Fresh fruit not good enough for you eh? Well I'll tell you something my lad. When you're walking home tonight and some great homicidal maniac comes after you with a bunch of loganberries, don't come crying to me! Now, the passion fruit.
See below.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Sep 30, 2011 5:55 PM EDT up reply actions
I'll go a bit further
If you want Constanza in the lineup, you bench Prado.
Constanza is not a better defensive player than Heyward, but he is better than Prado.
Heyward is the better hitter out of all three, and even out-performed Prado during his slump season.
Benching Heyward was stupid. Playing Constanza was not really a dumb move, but playing him at the expense of Heyward was.
Had Fredi benched Prado instead of Heyward, I think we have a different August/Sept.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Sep 30, 2011 5:57 PM EDT up reply actions
That’s what I have a problem with. I think the issue is youth and inexperience, I’m not saying it was handled correctly but I am very confident that’s what they were thinking.
Sgt.: Pointed stick? Oh, oh, oh. We want to learn how to defend ourselves against pointed sticks, do we? Getting all high and mighty, eh? Fresh fruit not good enough for you eh? Well I'll tell you something my lad. When you're walking home tonight and some great homicidal maniac comes after you with a bunch of loganberries, don't come crying to me! Now, the passion fruit.
Had Fredi benched Prado instead of Heyward, I think we have a different August/Sept.
How different? Enough to squeak into the WC and die in the first round? At least now we dump LP who in my estimation was much more of a liability than mis-management of J-Hey/George.
"You owe it to yourself to be successful. After that you'll owe it to the IRS."
so how was it completely stupid to bench Heyward, but yet you said Georgie had the month of his career when the move was made? So, by that explanation, wasn’t the benching actually good then?
braves#1
Not for Heyward. That’s my point – it was a short-sighted move.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Sep 30, 2011 5:55 PM EDT up reply actions
And it led to acquiring Diaz, who was a liability at the plate and took even more PAs away from Heyward when Heyward had finally started playing well. Would have been better to let Heyward play out of his slump, even with reduced production for a short period of time.
Why can’t we all collectively manage the Braves???
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Sep 30, 2011 5:57 PM EDT up reply actions
You have to have been a crappy major league player to manage a team. You need to watch more baseball.
I’m waiting for someone to make the “IF YOU THINK YOU CAN DO A BETTER JOB, WHY HASN’T WREN HIRED YOU YET???” post.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Sep 30, 2011 6:15 PM EDT up reply actions
Well, he did call me about the job
I told him to keep Fredi for a couple more years before he hired me, though. I want to be sure I look really good when I take over.
Most people use statistics the way a drunk would use a lamppost—for support, and not for illumination.
www.duwanis.com
Haha. Well played.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Oct 1, 2011 2:33 PM EDT up reply actions
I expect Heyward to probably rebound.
That said, who starts instead of him?
I do wonder if Fredi and Heyward had issues, and that was part of the reason for Heyward’s struggles.
That is what I have always believed…… I mean Jason did struggle. But so did Uggla, Schafer, McLouth and Prado, Jason was the only one benched for slumping. I know Uggla bounced back ( good for him), but he was the worse everyday player in all of MLB in the 1rst half, If you don’t bench a guy for slumping that bad, you shouldn’t bench anyone for slumping. I think it’s a deeper personal problem between F-Gon and Jason.
Uggla did give hit his all every play though, didnt see that with Heyward
by PhuckthePhillies on Oct 1, 2011 12:03 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah. There’s no precedent of it happening or anything….
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Oct 1, 2011 1:39 PM EDT up reply actions
I would have said the same thing in July.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Oct 1, 2011 2:58 PM EDT up reply actions
You also said ...
KK #3, Diaz leadoff, Sherrill and Linebrink aren’t needed, etc. I fail to see how that means much. You know as well as I do, opening day RF is Heyward barring injury.
http://sportsandgrits.com/
I would have said that our starter in RF in August would have been Heyward too.
PS. you really can’t let anything go, can you?
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Oct 1, 2011 8:25 PM EDT up reply actions
When was the last time I brought it up?
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Oct 1, 2011 11:25 PM EDT up reply actions
when was the last time you failed to jump with both feet as soon as someone does?
http://sportsandgrits.com/
Just this past week, if you must know.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Oct 2, 2011 1:20 AM EDT up reply actions
Wish the Heyward thing was said more about Prado, but love the tone. At least someone seems determined to change things.
Bat Prado 6th instead of 2nd and he’s suddenly hitting .280
"It looks like The Hound of the Baskervilles out there." - Steve Stone
"...I'm reminded of Wuthering Heights." - Harry Caray
~
Gaby Sanchez - 1, Nyjer Morgan - 0
by Chief Noc-A-Homa on Sep 30, 2011 7:54 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah...
It was almost painful watching Prado waste so many ABs trying to move Bourn/Constanza/whoever over. Ugh.
Most people use statistics the way a drunk would use a lamppost—for support, and not for illumination.
www.duwanis.com
That first part
Hell yes. Hell. Yes.
"My parents do a lot of things behind the scenes that go unnoticed"- Cam Newton, Heisman acceptance speech.
by TurnerTheBurner on Sep 30, 2011 7:14 PM EDT up reply actions
like what Wren has been saying
Starting Heyward in AAA, if he struggles in spring training, is both the right move (and would stop his arbitration clock a bit).
Lowe has to earn his spot in the rotation next year, but like I still maintain, he could bounce back and contribute.
Maybe complacency was what went wrong this year…Wren would have none of that. Now if he actually has some $ to sign someone in addition to just keeping all the core guys at higher cost due to arbitration…
by LEastCoastBears on Sep 30, 2011 8:33 PM EDT up reply actions
We'll trade Lowe for whoever eats the most of his salary
that’s what the first quote means.
http://sportsandgrits.com/
Alternately
we’ll ship him to our SP retirement home in Pearl, MS.
Most people use statistics the way a drunk would use a lamppost—for support, and not for illumination.
www.duwanis.com
Wren seeing the big picture.
Losing like the Braves would lose if they miss the playoffs would have a huge impact on the psyche of the Atlanta fan. In a town already dominated by football, the fair weather fan base of a baseball team that has just undergone an embarrassing collapse would find yet another reason not to support the team, until that team proves it can win it all. This sentiment is already pervasive throughout “Braves Country,” and need not be helped by the disgrace of missing out on a sure thing. Gondee 9/26
FW must’ve read Godee’s article. IMO he’s coming out quick & decisive in part to send a message to the fanbase. Adjustments will be made & made quickly. Come back out to the park in 2012.
"People ask me what I do in winter when there's no baseball. I'll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring." Rogers Hornsby
The most satisfying part of this is that the Wren is saying that at least some part of this season was unacceptable.
I’m really happy to see that Wren is visibly not happy with the results. Nothing grinds my gears like a smiling manager talking about luck and “a ball here or there” outcomes.
"One thing I’ve learned as a Phillies fan is that a lot of people hate our team and its fans."-commenter on The Good Phight
It might be unfair, or even cruel, but heads need to roll to a certain extent. And even if you don’t fault him entirely, Fredi saying the entire staff will remain is basically begging FW to disprove this notion, making LP more expendable.
Sgt.: Pointed stick? Oh, oh, oh. We want to learn how to defend ourselves against pointed sticks, do we? Getting all high and mighty, eh? Fresh fruit not good enough for you eh? Well I'll tell you something my lad. When you're walking home tonight and some great homicidal maniac comes after you with a bunch of loganberries, don't come crying to me! Now, the passion fruit.
It's cruel, but definitely fair.
It was a particularly small egg...thats why I asked.
by thenightstallion on Sep 30, 2011 4:53 PM EDT up reply actions
In this case, I don’t think it was cruel at all. He’s rightfully or wrongfully the easiest target out there. Parrish had to be a little worried.
The bottom line is that it isn’t really Fredi’s call apparently. I can’t imagine Wren was to happy to read in the newspaper that the coaches were safe per Fredi’s vote of confidence.
"One thing I’ve learned as a Phillies fan is that a lot of people hate our team and its fans."-commenter on The Good Phight
by Chipper Pwns on Sep 30, 2011 4:55 PM EDT up reply actions
I don’t think it’s cruel at all, I think it is professional baseball. But he is after all a human, but unfortunately he was a human who was really bad at his job.
I love that Fredi was put in his place. I mean the idiocy of making that announcement basically to a group of people who just suffered watching this team screw it all up the DAY AFTER the collapse is complete is beyond comprehension. He was trying to assert himself and reassure his coaches, which should have happened behind closed doors. It’s just bad leadership, and Frank Wren kindly reminded him who he works for, Kudos all around.
Sgt.: Pointed stick? Oh, oh, oh. We want to learn how to defend ourselves against pointed sticks, do we? Getting all high and mighty, eh? Fresh fruit not good enough for you eh? Well I'll tell you something my lad. When you're walking home tonight and some great homicidal maniac comes after you with a bunch of loganberries, don't come crying to me! Now, the passion fruit.
Exactly.
All while Fredi is surrounded by a bunch of orangutans, trying to teach them how to bunt the rocks and coconuts that angry 300 lb gorillas are throwing at them,
by royhobbs on Jul 29, 2011 11:20 AM PDT
Strong Side / Weak Side: Chipper Jones
http://www.onionsportsnetwork.com/articles/chipper-jones,8431/
by Santaklose11 on Sep 30, 2011 6:37 PM EDT up reply actions
FULLY agree!
I was so infuriated yesterday after I heard about that Fredi saying that the whole coaching staff was returning that I basically lost faith in the entire organization. Why not at least try & find someone else? Great news.
Call me an asshole, but I feel better already.
Sgt.: Pointed stick? Oh, oh, oh. We want to learn how to defend ourselves against pointed sticks, do we? Getting all high and mighty, eh? Fresh fruit not good enough for you eh? Well I'll tell you something my lad. When you're walking home tonight and some great homicidal maniac comes after you with a bunch of loganberries, don't come crying to me! Now, the passion fruit.
And then I turn on the ALDS and I’m back..
Sgt.: Pointed stick? Oh, oh, oh. We want to learn how to defend ourselves against pointed sticks, do we? Getting all high and mighty, eh? Fresh fruit not good enough for you eh? Well I'll tell you something my lad. When you're walking home tonight and some great homicidal maniac comes after you with a bunch of loganberries, don't come crying to me! Now, the passion fruit.
Mark Bradley's take on it:
Love the introduction. CLICK HERE to read the article
~ "Curve: The loveliest distance between two points." ~ Mae West ~
I think it's really amazing that Fredi spoke without clearing it with FW.
Making a statement like that, after such an epic collapse, and without clearing it with your boss first…wow. Just an example of extremely poor judgment, not to mention arrogance.
by SS451 on Sep 30, 2011 5:06 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
…an example of extremely poor judgment,
Just add it to the list.
Anyone else want to pitch to Pence there? Nope, didn’t think so.
~ "Curve: The loveliest distance between two points." ~ Mae West ~
You’re right absolutely right and I was screaming the same thing at my TV, but that game was just a shit show. I am almost compelled to think that that is the only ending destiny would allow.
Sgt.: Pointed stick? Oh, oh, oh. We want to learn how to defend ourselves against pointed sticks, do we? Getting all high and mighty, eh? Fresh fruit not good enough for you eh? Well I'll tell you something my lad. When you're walking home tonight and some great homicidal maniac comes after you with a bunch of loganberries, don't come crying to me! Now, the passion fruit.
I think we all had the feeling that, even if the game went 30 innings, we weren't going to score
and it was just a matter of time before the phillies eventually would
Yea, my thinking was that Kris Medlen was our big advantage in that setting. I would have even left him in to hit 2nd just to see him go 4. I thought that would have been the best way to handle it, but it is partly dependent on how much/what regimen Medlen was on or how he was feeling, and I don’t really know that information. However, to be fair, Fredi probably doesn’t either.
Sgt.: Pointed stick? Oh, oh, oh. We want to learn how to defend ourselves against pointed sticks, do we? Getting all high and mighty, eh? Fresh fruit not good enough for you eh? Well I'll tell you something my lad. When you're walking home tonight and some great homicidal maniac comes after you with a bunch of loganberries, don't come crying to me! Now, the passion fruit.
Leave him in to hit??
please his 2nd apperance in extra inning games..let’s just give an out away…then when we did lose, this place goes crazy….anyway
We gave an out away anyway with Constanza popping up on 1 pitch.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Sep 30, 2011 5:53 PM EDT up reply actions
I believe that Medlen as a pitcher gives us a better chance to win the game than Constanza as a PH.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Sep 30, 2011 5:58 PM EDT up reply actions
im not gonna really argue this
but medlen was in his 2nd apperance back…2ND!!…i dont know about you but i don’t really know how long he could have been effective…do you?
He has spent a lot of time as a starter. If he were a starter in his second start back you wouldn’t fret over 4 innnings, in fact it would be less than the maximum you would assume of 5/6.
Sgt.: Pointed stick? Oh, oh, oh. We want to learn how to defend ourselves against pointed sticks, do we? Getting all high and mighty, eh? Fresh fruit not good enough for you eh? Well I'll tell you something my lad. When you're walking home tonight and some great homicidal maniac comes after you with a bunch of loganberries, don't come crying to me! Now, the passion fruit.
sure if he rehabed and got stretched out
we have no way of knowing how sctretched out he was…unless you know something i don’t. the fact that he came back out of nowhere pretty quickly. I’m going to assume he wasn’t ready for 4 innings
Only Kris can tell ya that, but I don’t even think he was asked. He looked sharp, and the work he did was very efficient and impressive.
Sgt.: Pointed stick? Oh, oh, oh. We want to learn how to defend ourselves against pointed sticks, do we? Getting all high and mighty, eh? Fresh fruit not good enough for you eh? Well I'll tell you something my lad. When you're walking home tonight and some great homicidal maniac comes after you with a bunch of loganberries, don't come crying to me! Now, the passion fruit.
If he couldn’t pitch more than an inning, I doubt they would have brought him back at all.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Sep 30, 2011 7:10 PM EDT up reply actions
I was about to say exactly this. What he brings to the table is the ability to save the bullpen by eating innings. If he wasn’t ready to fill that role, they would not have activated him.
You shouldn’t sip liquor.
-justincredubil02
no, Jack Daniel is whiskey.
-ChopMaster
"Welcome to the show, Brandon Beachy. I think you’re going to stay a while."
True, that’s why I thought it was a brilliant move by Fredi to put him in, that was exactly my thought to put him in for 3-4, and then he pulls him. So close but so far…
Sgt.: Pointed stick? Oh, oh, oh. We want to learn how to defend ourselves against pointed sticks, do we? Getting all high and mighty, eh? Fresh fruit not good enough for you eh? Well I'll tell you something my lad. When you're walking home tonight and some great homicidal maniac comes after you with a bunch of loganberries, don't come crying to me! Now, the passion fruit.
The advantage the Braves had was the bullpen, letting Kris work (and that first inning was miniscule) longer it increases that advantage, Linebrink decreases that advantage.
I understand the sanctity of the out, but you knew it was going to come down to the bullpen, not a ph.
Sgt.: Pointed stick? Oh, oh, oh. We want to learn how to defend ourselves against pointed sticks, do we? Getting all high and mighty, eh? Fresh fruit not good enough for you eh? Well I'll tell you something my lad. When you're walking home tonight and some great homicidal maniac comes after you with a bunch of loganberries, don't come crying to me! Now, the passion fruit.
when Kimbrel blew the game
you knew it was over…it was and has been on the offense…hince move made today
No, that’s just not true.
We had an advantage over the Phillies with the heart of our order hitting in the 10th and our dominant BP with Medlen on the hill.
Chipper almost won the game in the 10th.
I had no worries about our chances in extra innings. However, once Fredi took Medlen out, I became worried.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Sep 30, 2011 6:00 PM EDT up reply actions
well agree to disagree
the blame still goes to the hitting…taking kris medlen out of the game didn’t lose the game no matter how you wanna spin it.
You don’t think Linebrink had anything to do with the loss?
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Sep 30, 2011 6:16 PM EDT up reply actions
in that he gave up the winning run yes he factored in the loss
but you try to win before you have to get to him.. leaving in medlen over a PH doesn’t help accomplish that…period whatever the final outcome was if we score you don’t need him
But taking Medlen out directly increases our chances of losing, despite who the PH would be or the outcome of the PH.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Sep 30, 2011 6:23 PM EDT up reply actions
like others said before, we could have went 20 innings and left Medlen in the game, but prolly would have never scored. Other than 2 innings in that final game, the offense was typical offense. When getting guys on, but couldn’t score. We were just done once Kimbrel blew that game, I just had that feeling, and many others had it too.
braves#1
I’m surprised people don’t really appreciate Varvaro actually. He is has extreme wildness problem especially against lefties, but the man can K righties at will.
This. People were complaining when he came into the game.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Sep 30, 2011 6:16 PM EDT up reply actions
Vavaro is the new C-Mart
C-Mart wasn’t really appreciated until he hit a double this year
by a hooter's baby on Sep 30, 2011 6:22 PM EDT up reply actions
Varvaro is really a 6th/7th guy in the pen. I don’t mind him, he’s decent at that role, but you can’t expose him.
I think Gearrin’s a little better option in that role right now then.
Really for our pen next year, we got 5 quality guys: 2 longmen in C-Mart/Medlen who can pitch the 7th, and O’Ventbrel (one of them won’t be the same after this year, and all will regress I’m sure)
We need another guy who can go 1-2 innings, and a good 7th inning guy so Venters/EOF can LOOGY it up sometimes.
At least Matt Moore is pitching, got a chance to chat with him at a Montgomery Biscuits game and he’s a really cool dude.
Sgt.: Pointed stick? Oh, oh, oh. We want to learn how to defend ourselves against pointed sticks, do we? Getting all high and mighty, eh? Fresh fruit not good enough for you eh? Well I'll tell you something my lad. When you're walking home tonight and some great homicidal maniac comes after you with a bunch of loganberries, don't come crying to me! Now, the passion fruit.
Season tix next year! That’s what up… Can’t wait.
Don’t worry about older women until you turn 22. It’s called the Saltalamacchia.
by bwellnjonesco on May 19, 2011 4:13 PM PDT
by Klemson Krash on Sep 30, 2011 5:40 PM EDT up reply actions
Right on, I go up there as much as possible, though my success rate is a lot higher on Thirsty Thursdays for some reason…
Sgt.: Pointed stick? Oh, oh, oh. We want to learn how to defend ourselves against pointed sticks, do we? Getting all high and mighty, eh? Fresh fruit not good enough for you eh? Well I'll tell you something my lad. When you're walking home tonight and some great homicidal maniac comes after you with a bunch of loganberries, don't come crying to me! Now, the passion fruit.
I’m so happy right now. I don’t think I was this excited when we got Bourn for scraps!
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Sep 30, 2011 5:18 PM EDT reply actions
Now we somehow gotta snake Don Baylor away from Arizona (see what I did there?)
Sgt.: Pointed stick? Oh, oh, oh. We want to learn how to defend ourselves against pointed sticks, do we? Getting all high and mighty, eh? Fresh fruit not good enough for you eh? Well I'll tell you something my lad. When you're walking home tonight and some great homicidal maniac comes after you with a bunch of loganberries, don't come crying to me! Now, the passion fruit.
ISWYDT
But, I’d honestly rather have an internal option – like Javy Lopez or even TP back in the dugout while we are hitting.
But, I think one thing we are all over-looking here is that there is still one coach who needs to go – Snitker!
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Sep 30, 2011 5:25 PM EDT up reply actions
That was a nice suggestion justin about Javy – count me in.
~ "Curve: The loveliest distance between two points." ~ Mae West ~
Because he'd make a great hitting coach, or because...
Most people use statistics the way a drunk would use a lamppost—for support, and not for illumination.
www.duwanis.com
I, for one think we should go with Bobby Valentine
But no, really. Am I the one who thinks we need a fiery type on the bench?
Fiery as in you don’t wanna see him when he’s angry? Cause if so, Mufasa is a much better option.
But if you mean fiery as in literal flames, I’d probably go withe Hades, the god of the underworld.
It was a particularly small egg...thats why I asked.
by thenightstallion on Sep 30, 2011 5:28 PM EDT up reply actions
I mean maybe show A LITTLE emotion in the dugout?
Don’t just sit there like a bump on a friggin log waiting to tip your G—D cap at the end of the game
He did show a deer-in-the-headlights look quite often over the last month.
When was the last time he got thrown out of a game?
You would think that a manager, in the wake of an epic skid, would try to send a message to the players.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Sep 30, 2011 5:31 PM EDT up reply actions
He did send a message
The message was just “tip your cap, everything is fine, nothing is broken, if a ball just bounces this way or that way…”
It was a particularly small egg...thats why I asked.
by thenightstallion on Sep 30, 2011 5:32 PM EDT up reply actions
Thank-you
I was saying down the stretch if he would have just gotten thrown out of ONE game, it could have changed our fortunes. There were a bunch of close plays in which he could’ve pulled this off
The play at 3rd on the double-steal is a perfect example.
Fredi just came out. looked at the umpire, said “Are you sure? Ok.” and walked back.
Bobby would have been LIVID!
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Sep 30, 2011 5:38 PM EDT up reply actions
Maybe it was CapitolAvenueClub
But someone summed up my thoughts on Fredi G before he was officially announced as the new manager. Basically, he’s all the things we couldn’t stand about Bobby’s managing, without any of the things we loved about Bobby’s managing.
Hell Bourn was livid. I was a little afraid that Bourn might get kicked out of the game. I was thinking shhhhhh please don’t get kicked out.
braves#1
Right, and when I say "thrown out" I'm not talking about this weak bullshit either
http://mlb.mlb.com/video/play.jsp?c_id=mlb&content_id=18961621&query=game_pk%3D289029
Ump: Do you want to get thrown out?
Fredi: Well yeah, I guess you’re going to have to
Ump: Well here you go..
That was weaker than the fake ‘toss-out’ of Bobby at the ceremony in August
by biggjoe404 on Sep 30, 2011 5:47 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Uh do you know what the fuck you just linked to. If I could ban you I would.
Sgt.: Pointed stick? Oh, oh, oh. We want to learn how to defend ourselves against pointed sticks, do we? Getting all high and mighty, eh? Fresh fruit not good enough for you eh? Well I'll tell you something my lad. When you're walking home tonight and some great homicidal maniac comes after you with a bunch of loganberries, don't come crying to me! Now, the passion fruit.
Boo this man!
Sgt.: Pointed stick? Oh, oh, oh. We want to learn how to defend ourselves against pointed sticks, do we? Getting all high and mighty, eh? Fresh fruit not good enough for you eh? Well I'll tell you something my lad. When you're walking home tonight and some great homicidal maniac comes after you with a bunch of loganberries, don't come crying to me! Now, the passion fruit.
Yep, that is exactly what I’ve been saying. It is absolutely infuriating to watch him trot back to the dugout with his tail between his legs, not a leadership move at all.
Sgt.: Pointed stick? Oh, oh, oh. We want to learn how to defend ourselves against pointed sticks, do we? Getting all high and mighty, eh? Fresh fruit not good enough for you eh? Well I'll tell you something my lad. When you're walking home tonight and some great homicidal maniac comes after you with a bunch of loganberries, don't come crying to me! Now, the passion fruit.
even doing that double steal was incredibly bad with the heart of the order coming up. Sigh for over managing.
Runners on 1st and 2nd with 0 outs, Chipper up, Uggla on deck and Freddie in the hole.
Why the hell would you take the risK????
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Sep 30, 2011 6:17 PM EDT up reply actions
Someone go find Chino!
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Sep 30, 2011 5:28 PM EDT up reply actions
Either you didn't see this or read the Braves' minds
http://twitter.com/#!/mlbbowman/status/119828656376913920
"My parents do a lot of things behind the scenes that go unnoticed"- Cam Newton, Heisman acceptance speech.
by TurnerTheBurner on Sep 30, 2011 7:24 PM EDT up reply actions
I didn’t see it, but hey, great minds….
:D
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Sep 30, 2011 8:49 PM EDT up reply actions
I think Kirk Gibson would fight to keep Baylor.
Literally. I think he would punch Wren in the face for even asking about Baylor.
by a hooter's baby on Sep 30, 2011 5:27 PM EDT up reply actions
Oh yea, it’d get ugly. But Bobby Dews will whup some ass.
Sgt.: Pointed stick? Oh, oh, oh. We want to learn how to defend ourselves against pointed sticks, do we? Getting all high and mighty, eh? Fresh fruit not good enough for you eh? Well I'll tell you something my lad. When you're walking home tonight and some great homicidal maniac comes after you with a bunch of loganberries, don't come crying to me! Now, the passion fruit.
This is really kind of ridiculous
As if some geezer that spends a half hour a week with you, tops, makes a difference in hitting .260 or .280.
Hard to think of anything less meaningful to a teams’ success.
The fact that you think a hitting coach only spends half an hour per week with a player is quite ridiculous.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Sep 30, 2011 5:38 PM EDT up reply actions
.020 of batting average
is the difference between an elite team and perrenial October couch potatos.
by crimsonqueen9 on Sep 30, 2011 6:34 PM EDT up reply actions
The difference between a guy hitting .250 and .290 is one hit a week
You think a good batting coach can’t be worth a hit every two weeks?
My buddy and I just decided that the braves would be set if we could get Matt Kemp, Jose Reyes, and Albert Pujols.
by willlinn on May 17, 2011 2:13 PM EDT
wooooow
I’m more excited about Wren’s comments than anything else. The fact that he doesn’t see Lowe in the rotation next year makes me quite excited.
Also saying Heyward doesn’t have a starting spot locked down is exactly what needs to be said so he doesn’t get comfortable over the winter.
I’m interested to know how he feels about Fredi speaking out before things were official. I know I wouldn’t mind a new manager named Francona
by drumzalicious on Sep 30, 2011 5:38 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
We need to start the “HIRE TITO” bandwagon.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Sep 30, 2011 5:39 PM EDT up reply actions
Can I drink some of that kool-aid?
Don’t worry about older women until you turn 22. It’s called the Saltalamacchia.
by bwellnjonesco on May 19, 2011 4:13 PM PDT
by Klemson Krash on Sep 30, 2011 5:42 PM EDT up reply actions
You don't like Francona?
Francona is essentially the perfect mix of old school and advance statistics.
I love how he managed the Red Sox.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Sep 30, 2011 5:54 PM EDT up reply actions
Nah I think he means he wants to join your cult.
Sgt.: Pointed stick? Oh, oh, oh. We want to learn how to defend ourselves against pointed sticks, do we? Getting all high and mighty, eh? Fresh fruit not good enough for you eh? Well I'll tell you something my lad. When you're walking home tonight and some great homicidal maniac comes after you with a bunch of loganberries, don't come crying to me! Now, the passion fruit.
That’s how I took it too.
People will come Ray. The one constant through all the years, Ray, has been baseball. America has rolled by like an army of steamrollers. It has been erased like a blackboard, rebuilt and erased again. But baseball has marked the time. This field, this game: it's a part of our past, Ray. It reminds of us of all that once was good and it could be again.
He’ll probably go to the White Sox
People will come Ray. The one constant through all the years, Ray, has been baseball. America has rolled by like an army of steamrollers. It has been erased like a blackboard, rebuilt and erased again. But baseball has marked the time. This field, this game: it's a part of our past, Ray. It reminds of us of all that once was good and it could be again.
Yea, it seemed perfect, but unless we absolutely blow him away he seems destined for Chicago
Sgt.: Pointed stick? Oh, oh, oh. We want to learn how to defend ourselves against pointed sticks, do we? Getting all high and mighty, eh? Fresh fruit not good enough for you eh? Well I'll tell you something my lad. When you're walking home tonight and some great homicidal maniac comes after you with a bunch of loganberries, don't come crying to me! Now, the passion fruit.
The fact that he doesn’t see Lowe in the rotation next year makes me quite excited.
Before the postseason even begins he pretty much says “Who wants to trade for Derek Lowe?” I’m glad FW is publicly pissed, but you have to play that one a little closer to the vest.
by hoboken_wood on Sep 30, 2011 8:27 PM EDT up reply actions
Classic
Addition by subtraction. One can only speculate what might have been if such a descision were made earlier.
"People ask me what I do in winter when there's no baseball. I'll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring." Rogers Hornsby
Victory !
A big win for the Braves on firing Parrish, after Fredi’s very poorly timed announcement yesterday that he’d be staying.
I don’t know if it was the Red Sox move, or the TC and AJC postings, but Schuerholz, Wren and company made it clear that standing pat with the management team which brought us the collapse of 2011 just won’t fill the seats in 2012. Maybe someone read about the team OBP under Parrish and finally connected the dots.
There’s a lot of work still to be done. We’re still stuck with Lowe’s deal. The Nats and Marlins will be improved. The Phillies are still frightening. Some of our young arms aren’t strong enough to make it through a full season in their best form, some of our old reliable batters have aching joints, and Jason Heyward must still be helped back by a hitting coach who knows what he’s doing.
I expect a politician to think himself worthy of re-election no matter how poorly he has done. I’m glad that the Braves didn’t apply that standard to Larry Parrish, who was (also) too unqualified and inexperienced for his job in the first place.
Rays just abusing the Rangers…
Sgt.: Pointed stick? Oh, oh, oh. We want to learn how to defend ourselves against pointed sticks, do we? Getting all high and mighty, eh? Fresh fruit not good enough for you eh? Well I'll tell you something my lad. When you're walking home tonight and some great homicidal maniac comes after you with a bunch of loganberries, don't come crying to me! Now, the passion fruit.
Just beating the crap out of them.
Sgt.: Pointed stick? Oh, oh, oh. We want to learn how to defend ourselves against pointed sticks, do we? Getting all high and mighty, eh? Fresh fruit not good enough for you eh? Well I'll tell you something my lad. When you're walking home tonight and some great homicidal maniac comes after you with a bunch of loganberries, don't come crying to me! Now, the passion fruit.
If Frank Wren were able to snag Jose Reyes at a reasonable price and move Lowe, I'd tell me he want serious results in 2012
"We did a lot of good things last year, and now we've got Julio ... That does nothing but improve the offense, and we expect to do better. That's our goal, to lead the NFL in everything. Every offensive category." -Roddy White
I am not sure I want Reyes in our dugout
I used to be a fan, until this season. The nail in the coffin was his one (bunt hit) and done in game 162. It seems the man plays only for himself with almost zero regard for the team as a whole.
All while Fredi is surrounded by a bunch of orangutans, trying to teach them how to bunt the rocks and coconuts that angry 300 lb gorillas are throwing at them,
by royhobbs on Jul 29, 2011 11:20 AM PDT
Strong Side / Weak Side: Chipper Jones
http://www.onionsportsnetwork.com/articles/chipper-jones,8431/
by Santaklose11 on Sep 30, 2011 6:48 PM EDT up reply actions
Can’t deny his skills. Imagin a 1-2 of Bourn and Reyes…mmmmmm…….
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Sep 30, 2011 7:11 PM EDT up reply actions
Reyes would be good for a couple of years
but you would seriously need to overpay him in years to sign him…I don’t see the Braves doing this
by LEastCoastBears on Sep 30, 2011 8:35 PM EDT up reply actions
OT: Why wasn't Julio Teheran more like Matt Moore
in terms of his strikeouts in the minors translating into big league strikeouts…I am still quite high on Teheran, of course, but I was hoping that he would get more K’s….maybe with time
by LEastCoastBears on Sep 30, 2011 6:45 PM EDT reply actions
Didn’t Matt Moore pitch for a couple of years in college?
Teheran is what, 19 years old?
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Sep 30, 2011 7:12 PM EDT up reply actions
Moore is 2 year older than Teheran, so Teheran still has time to mature physically. How that translate to his stuff getting just that bit better (to get more swing and misses) is to be determined.
by LEastCoastBears on Sep 30, 2011 7:34 PM EDT up reply actions
Moore also has more dominant stuff
he constantly hits 97 on his fastball and he throws strikes, something teheran hasn’t done really in the MLB, but he has plenty of time to adjust
Chopmaster: my link is my dad who has watched the braves since I don’t know. he’s 56.
Get 'em Wren!
Fredi, shut up. Larry, don’t let the door hit your ass on the way out. DLowe, thanks, but no thanks. JHey, get your shit together or sit your ass down. Awesome!
188 I believe
Sgt.: Pointed stick? Oh, oh, oh. We want to learn how to defend ourselves against pointed sticks, do we? Getting all high and mighty, eh? Fresh fruit not good enough for you eh? Well I'll tell you something my lad. When you're walking home tonight and some great homicidal maniac comes after you with a bunch of loganberries, don't come crying to me! Now, the passion fruit.
Yep, I’m toying with the idea of going to Spring Training. Might ask around about thoughts.
Sgt.: Pointed stick? Oh, oh, oh. We want to learn how to defend ourselves against pointed sticks, do we? Getting all high and mighty, eh? Fresh fruit not good enough for you eh? Well I'll tell you something my lad. When you're walking home tonight and some great homicidal maniac comes after you with a bunch of loganberries, don't come crying to me! Now, the passion fruit.
OH MY
There is justice in the Universe.
Braves.
Falcons.
Gamecocks.
ajcbraves profile
ajcbraves GM Wren identified #Braves primary offseason needs as shortstop, outfield and utility infield. Doesn’t plan to trade young pitching.
Braves.
Falcons.
Gamecocks.
ajcbraves profile
ajcbraves #Braves GM Wren on hitting: “Bottom line is, we didn’t battle at the plate. That’s got to change. [Phillies] battle up and down the lineup.”
Braves.
Falcons.
Gamecocks.
ajcbraves #Braves GM Wren: “There’s plenty of blame to go around. This was a really tough finish…. I think Fredi did a good.”
Braves.
Falcons.
Gamecocks.
ajcbraves profile
ajcbraves #Braves GM Wren: “It’s all about situational hitting and unselfish hitting…. Our biggest deficiency was our situational hitting.”
Braves.
Falcons.
Gamecocks.
WREN—"That was not the reason that we did it," he said. "There were enough questions in our mind that we couldn’t go forward to 2012 with the feeling that changes would be made — and changes needed to be made. They need to be made with a number of our hitters, and with our whole offensive production. Bottom line, you’ve got to have confidence that that can be done."
Braves.
Falcons.
Gamecocks.
I want to see guys be tough outs," Wren said. "We didn’t have enough tough outs. The bottom line is, we didn’t battle at the plate. And that’s got to change."
Braves.
Falcons.
Gamecocks.
"It’s situational hitting, it’s not just settling for a good swing and then a strikeout," Wren said. "That’s a bad at-bat in my mind. Philadelphia just left here. They battled every day, up and down that lineup. They’re going to make a pitcher work to get them out. Too many times if you made three or four good pitches against us it was pretty easy to get through our lineup. That needs to change.
"That was probably our Achilles heel. We had a team that very easily could have won 95 games, but just …our biggest deficiency was our situational hitting."
Braves.
Falcons.
Gamecocks.
FRANK FUCKING WREN!
I love you man, you’re awesome. We’ve been screaming this the entire season…and he just called the entire team out on the offensive side of the ball.
GREAT to hear.
Braves.
Falcons.
Gamecocks.
I like everything besides the “Fredi did a good job” sentiment
Sgt.: Pointed stick? Oh, oh, oh. We want to learn how to defend ourselves against pointed sticks, do we? Getting all high and mighty, eh? Fresh fruit not good enough for you eh? Well I'll tell you something my lad. When you're walking home tonight and some great homicidal maniac comes after you with a bunch of loganberries, don't come crying to me! Now, the passion fruit.
If Fredi would have given DRoss some consistent starts when Mac was abysmal, and simply moved Prado down in the order, there is a very good chance we would be playing baseball right now.
"It looks like The Hound of the Baskervilles out there." - Steve Stone
"...I'm reminded of Wuthering Heights." - Harry Caray
~
Gaby Sanchez - 1, Nyjer Morgan - 0
by Chief Noc-A-Homa on Sep 30, 2011 7:58 PM EDT up reply actions
It was pretty obvious Ross should have gotten some starts down the stretch. I even thought about a defensive sub late in the last game. It seems to me that he calls a better game.
Oh, and none of us should forget Brian McCann looking over to the dugout to get he pitch call, that is just downright wrong. Even if it was McDowell, that’s not how that needs to happen. If it was Fredi (who we’ve all seen feels he needs to “manage”) then that is downright idiotic. He doesn’t even know his own team’s tendencies, so what can he know about other team’s, just a real bad idea.
Sgt.: Pointed stick? Oh, oh, oh. We want to learn how to defend ourselves against pointed sticks, do we? Getting all high and mighty, eh? Fresh fruit not good enough for you eh? Well I'll tell you something my lad. When you're walking home tonight and some great homicidal maniac comes after you with a bunch of loganberries, don't come crying to me! Now, the passion fruit.
I'm not sure what's going on here
But I agree with you 100%
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Sep 30, 2011 8:51 PM EDT up reply actions
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
Sgt.: Pointed stick? Oh, oh, oh. We want to learn how to defend ourselves against pointed sticks, do we? Getting all high and mighty, eh? Fresh fruit not good enough for you eh? Well I'll tell you something my lad. When you're walking home tonight and some great homicidal maniac comes after you with a bunch of loganberries, don't come crying to me! Now, the passion fruit.
So I guess this means FA?
Sgt.: Pointed stick? Oh, oh, oh. We want to learn how to defend ourselves against pointed sticks, do we? Getting all high and mighty, eh? Fresh fruit not good enough for you eh? Well I'll tell you something my lad. When you're walking home tonight and some great homicidal maniac comes after you with a bunch of loganberries, don't come crying to me! Now, the passion fruit.
Watching the Tampa game, was surprised to discover that Matt Harrison has piled up 4.2 WAR this season. Andrus put up 4.5 WAR. Feliz put up 1 WAR in a down year. All cost-controlled. Oooof.
“My concerns going in, based on what I saw all season long, were amplified in that meeting,” Wren said. “I came away from that meeting at 3 or 3:30 yesterday afternoon pretty sure we needed to make a change. The more I pondered it and thought about it, the more I knew the right thing was to make the change.”
Braves.
Falcons.
Gamecocks.
Seriously, I LOVE this man!
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Sep 30, 2011 8:52 PM EDT up reply actions
This was the right call!
It shows how much power F-Gon doesn’t have. One day after saying everyone would be back on the coaching staff, Hitting coach is fired. Maybe this sends a message to F-Gon as well…….. Don’t start the season with Uggla hitting 4th and 5th knowing he will struggle! I hop Larry didn’t ruin Jason’s career.
In terms of my above comment
I was just expressing my belief that people have a certain level of ability, and a certain window where they’re at their best, and that coaching’s impact on this is minimal relative to a player’s innate talent and ability to learn – and that this learning comes from facing pitchers that match up with their talent, more than some geezer that makes a tenth of what they do.
Anyone have an example of this not being true on a level underneath the skipper?
I think Righetti was obviously doing something right last year, but no one else really comes to mind.
I didn't read every post so forgive me.....
Why not David Justice for hitting coah? He was a Brave, had a very good career despite the injury’s, never struck out more than 100 times in a season, and hit for power and knew how to take a walk.
hitting baseballs? or movie star wives?
by stillnotah8er on Sep 30, 2011 10:54 PM EDT up reply actions
Come on man, he didn’t hit Berry. But everyone else did….. Snipes, Sutherland, ect…. Leads me to believe she has an issue or 2.
point taken
couldn’t resist the cheap shot
by stillnotah8er on Oct 1, 2011 12:47 AM EDT up reply actions
I hate to break up the "Atta boy Frank!" party, but I just find it incredibly curious that as late as yesterday, he was all about keeping the entire staff.
"This [coaching staff] had us in position to have the best record in baseball through the first five months of the season. We had a lot of things that went right. We also had a lot of things that didn’t go right in September. From our standpoint, there is plenty of blame to go around for what happened. We’re going to meet internally and talk about everything that possibly could contribute to what happened. We’re going to work to fix it. We feel like the guys we have on this coaching staff are capable of fixing it."
This makes me think that Frank is caving to public opinion. I mean, if the coaching staff was good enough to keep yesterday, than why not today?
by Aaron Meier on Sep 30, 2011 11:07 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
He sobered up?
Just a thought.
"You owe it to yourself to be successful. After that you'll owe it to the IRS."
That's clever and all,
but I have a big problem with the idea that the man in charge of overseeing the stability and future direction of this ballclub is incapable of standing firm on his beliefs from one day to the next. I have no problem with him letting LP go, but I have a big problem with the wishy washy way it’s being handled. It does not instill confidence as far as I’m concerned.
by Aaron Meier on Sep 30, 2011 11:17 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
That is not factually correct.
Sgt.: Pointed stick? Oh, oh, oh. We want to learn how to defend ourselves against pointed sticks, do we? Getting all high and mighty, eh? Fresh fruit not good enough for you eh? Well I'll tell you something my lad. When you're walking home tonight and some great homicidal maniac comes after you with a bunch of loganberries, don't come crying to me! Now, the passion fruit.
That would make sense
considering that statement is one of subjective observation. I’m merely stating my opinion of how his words and actions have appeared to me, an average fan.
by Aaron Meier on Sep 30, 2011 11:29 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Yea well you can’t just read an entire absolute statement into one that doesn’t even address the issue. Fredi said it, Frank didn’t, that’s completely objective.
Sgt.: Pointed stick? Oh, oh, oh. We want to learn how to defend ourselves against pointed sticks, do we? Getting all high and mighty, eh? Fresh fruit not good enough for you eh? Well I'll tell you something my lad. When you're walking home tonight and some great homicidal maniac comes after you with a bunch of loganberries, don't come crying to me! Now, the passion fruit.
Frank never said that he was keeping the entire staff. Fredi said that. Perhaps it was Frank’s thought at the time that Fredi gathered that information, perhaps it was Fredi speaking out of turn. But obviously incorrect information got out there, and it wasn’t Frank’s fault. He is totally entitled to change his mind after a “state of the FO” meeting, and that’s probably why FW didn’t come out and make outrageous promises on the worst day possibly, but Fredi did.
Sgt.: Pointed stick? Oh, oh, oh. We want to learn how to defend ourselves against pointed sticks, do we? Getting all high and mighty, eh? Fresh fruit not good enough for you eh? Well I'll tell you something my lad. When you're walking home tonight and some great homicidal maniac comes after you with a bunch of loganberries, don't come crying to me! Now, the passion fruit.
Yes, he did.
“We’re going to work to fix it. We feel like the guys we have on this coaching staff are capable of fixing it.”
Not “some of the guys”…he was all inclusive.
And yes, obviously he has the right and the authority to change his mind, but I also have the right to call that wishy washy. If he didn’t intend to keep everyone, or even if he was undecided, he should have kept his mouth shut until he had reached a decision.
by Aaron Meier on Sep 30, 2011 11:25 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
That is not the same as Fredi saying “the coaching staff will remain the same” they aren’t even comparable. If you hear that comment by itself that does not at all say that the entire coaching staff is going to remain the same. IT just says that he fills that progress can be made, but he never explicitly says that everyone is capable of it.
Either Fredi and Frank had a talk (probably before game 162) that led Fredi to believe that the staff would remain the same and Fredi took it upon himself to say that that decision was final (which isn’t his place and he is not really a primary decision maker in that process.) Or Fredi spoke out of turn and made the assumption. Either way Frank has every right to change his mind even if he was thinking he’d keep the status quo at first. Which is probably why he didn’t make a statement at the worst possible time, Fredi did that. Frank in no way was “Wishy washy” that’s just silly.
Also, capable of fixing it does not equal are going to fix it next year. You are really supplying a lot of information you perceived into a rather meaningless quote. Fredi made this decision seem sloppy, not Frank.
Sgt.: Pointed stick? Oh, oh, oh. We want to learn how to defend ourselves against pointed sticks, do we? Getting all high and mighty, eh? Fresh fruit not good enough for you eh? Well I'll tell you something my lad. When you're walking home tonight and some great homicidal maniac comes after you with a bunch of loganberries, don't come crying to me! Now, the passion fruit.
“IT just says that he fills that progress can be made, but he never explicitly says that everyone is capable of it.”
That is exactly what it says. Again, he didn’t say “some of the guys on this staff” or “guys on this staff”, he said “the guys on this staff”, as in all of them.
by Aaron Meier on Sep 30, 2011 11:44 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
That is still not an explicit black or white statement. He did not absolutely say that the entire staff is coming back. And the reason he did not make an absolute, objective statement is because he was not totally satisfied with his decision yet. Fredi created the problem by making that statement at the worst time, there is a reason FW didn’t but Fredi took it upon himself to announce a final decision that hadn’t been made yet, and even if it had been made not by him, so he was out of place for saying it.
And that is the real issue. If Fredi had not said anything we wouldn’t be having this conversation. If we hadn’t been thinking that an official Braves announcement had been made saying the entire staff was coming back because of the statement by Fredi it doesn’t seem like a flip-flop at all. And if you are presented with that statement alone and think that it represents a final and binding (dealing with contracts) decision then you are supplying almost all of the information yourself.
Sgt.: Pointed stick? Oh, oh, oh. We want to learn how to defend ourselves against pointed sticks, do we? Getting all high and mighty, eh? Fresh fruit not good enough for you eh? Well I'll tell you something my lad. When you're walking home tonight and some great homicidal maniac comes after you with a bunch of loganberries, don't come crying to me! Now, the passion fruit.
“And the reason he did not make an absolute, objective statement is because he was not totally satisfied with his decision yet”
Then don’t say anything at all until you ARE totally satisfied. If Fredi spoke out of turn, fine, come out and say so. Show him who runs the show. But don’t kind of agree with him one day and then completely disagree with him the next. That kind of ambiguity is not constructive. Leave the doublespeak to the politicians.
He never said that he was totally satisfied with his staff, that just isn’t true.Fredi is at fault not FW, I can’t even see how you can compare the two statements.
Sgt.: Pointed stick? Oh, oh, oh. We want to learn how to defend ourselves against pointed sticks, do we? Getting all high and mighty, eh? Fresh fruit not good enough for you eh? Well I'll tell you something my lad. When you're walking home tonight and some great homicidal maniac comes after you with a bunch of loganberries, don't come crying to me! Now, the passion fruit.
But he said that after kinda sorta agreeing with him.
Hence my opinion that he has been wishy washy on this.
Kinda sorta agreeing (which is only being said because of the comments Fredi made), an absolute comment by Fredi, and the actual decision to pick up a contract are all wildly different things.
Sgt.: Pointed stick? Oh, oh, oh. We want to learn how to defend ourselves against pointed sticks, do we? Getting all high and mighty, eh? Fresh fruit not good enough for you eh? Well I'll tell you something my lad. When you're walking home tonight and some great homicidal maniac comes after you with a bunch of loganberries, don't come crying to me! Now, the passion fruit.
I would have interpretated that comment in exactly the same way
regardless of whether Fredi did or did not open his mouth.
The fact that his words are open to such different interpretations
is evidence in itself of their ambiguity.
by Aaron Meier on Sep 30, 2011 11:47 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Exactly. So because they were ambiguous they definitely didn’t say with finality that the entire staff would remain intact. That statement was not an official statement of the Braves coaching staff changes, it was just a positive comment. It wasn’t even purposefully misleading, it means nothing to the coaching changes argument, your entire argument is predicated on the fact that “the guys can fix it” means “we will be keeping every single coach”
Sgt.: Pointed stick? Oh, oh, oh. We want to learn how to defend ourselves against pointed sticks, do we? Getting all high and mighty, eh? Fresh fruit not good enough for you eh? Well I'll tell you something my lad. When you're walking home tonight and some great homicidal maniac comes after you with a bunch of loganberries, don't come crying to me! Now, the passion fruit.
your entire argument is predicated on the fact that "the guys can fix it" means "we will be keeping every single coach"
Not just my argument…this quote was used to confirm Fredi’s position in several national media outlets. So if it was ambiguous to mislead professional sports journalists, I would imagine it’s safe to say that my interpretation isn’t all that “silly”.
Don’t blame FW for the media outlets using a very vague comment to support the absolute statement by Fredi.
Sgt.: Pointed stick? Oh, oh, oh. We want to learn how to defend ourselves against pointed sticks, do we? Getting all high and mighty, eh? Fresh fruit not good enough for you eh? Well I'll tell you something my lad. When you're walking home tonight and some great homicidal maniac comes after you with a bunch of loganberries, don't come crying to me! Now, the passion fruit.
Yes it is. He isn’t even responding to the question of if he is going to keep the entire staff, and consider maybe that in his mind he had a thought of which guys would and could fix and which guys couldn’t. If you want to go down that road, then perhaps he was thinking of “the guys” as a group minus LP etc. The only reason we are having this discussion is because it is not binding or definitive, which would mean it isn’t wishy washy or a 180 degree change in stance.
Sgt.: Pointed stick? Oh, oh, oh. We want to learn how to defend ourselves against pointed sticks, do we? Getting all high and mighty, eh? Fresh fruit not good enough for you eh? Well I'll tell you something my lad. When you're walking home tonight and some great homicidal maniac comes after you with a bunch of loganberries, don't come crying to me! Now, the passion fruit.
If he was thinking of the group minus LP
he would have said “some of the guys.” He did not. But now that we’ve been around and around about this a dozen times, we’ll just have to agree to disagree.
Fair enough.
Sgt.: Pointed stick? Oh, oh, oh. We want to learn how to defend ourselves against pointed sticks, do we? Getting all high and mighty, eh? Fresh fruit not good enough for you eh? Well I'll tell you something my lad. When you're walking home tonight and some great homicidal maniac comes after you with a bunch of loganberries, don't come crying to me! Now, the passion fruit.
This makes me think that Frank is caving to public opinion
Nope. Frank specifically addressed that in his comments.
Wren said the move was not made to satisfy fans or media members who wanted someone held accountable.
"That was not the reason that we did it," he said.
~ "Curve: The loveliest distance between two points." ~ Mae West ~
Well, if that was the reason, he certainly wouldn't admit to it.
by Aaron Meier on Sep 30, 2011 11:27 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
If that was the reason,
he wouldn’t have brought it up at all.
When asked why Fredi made the comments about the coaching staff
Wren said Gonzalez might have been caught off-guard when asked by a reporter Thursday morning, just 12 hours after the season-ending loss, about the status of his coaches
by a hooter's baby on Sep 30, 2011 11:59 PM EDT up reply actions
I mean, 12 hours is a sufficiently long time, right? It's not like reporters were rushing the dugout to ask him this question when the game ended
It was enough time to go home and sleep on it, and to get ready to talk to reporters the next day. Being caught off-guard, the day after your team has suffered a HISTORIC collapse to fall out of the playoffs, by a question asking if a coaching change will be made show a lack of the general preparation necessary to do his job or the general awareness of the world around and the ability to have a reasonable chance of expecting the likely outcome of future events. Any nine year old has the reasoning skills to understand that after he’s failed a test, SOMEone might ask him if he watched cartoon instead of studying.
So yeah, sounds just like Fredi to have been caught off-guard.
My buddy and I just decided that the braves would be set if we could get Matt Kemp, Jose Reyes, and Albert Pujols.
by willlinn on May 17, 2011 2:13 PM EDT
Agreed
Fredi needs to install a mouth filter and take a public speaking class this winter.
by a hooter's baby on Oct 1, 2011 10:03 AM EDT up reply actions
Fredi should have played that scenario in his head beforehand and had something in mind to say to the press if they didn’t win the game.
But then, that would require someone willing to have a “game plan” and we all know he’s not overly fond of those.
.
In regard to Wrenn and Parrish decision and the timing… I think Wren chose to let Fredi’s comment float out there for a few hours until their meeting took place on Thursday. I think, Wrenn had already somewhat made up his mind about letting Parrish go unless he (LP) could convince him in the meeting that things would be different enough in his approach next year to make things better. Obviously, he wasn’t able to convince Wrenn and thus, the decision was made and announced.
~ "Curve: The loveliest distance between two points." ~ Mae West ~
I'm a little unimpressed
Seriously – the meltdown was 99% due to the fact that the 2 and 3 starters got knocked out.
So you fire the hitting coach? Uh… OK.
Our offense has been pretty terrible all year.
Losing 2 of our best starters just shined the black light on our very dirty sheets.
The meltdown was due to about 60% mismanagement, and 39% offensive struggles.
I’d say that the kids filled in just fine in the rotation. The loss of Hanson and JJ, while very tough, should not have made us miss the playoffs – especially with a 10.5 game lead at one point.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Oct 1, 2011 1:59 AM EDT up reply actions
FTFY
Seriously – the meltdown was 1% due to the fact that the 2 and 3 starters got knocked out.
The pitching numbers put up by the replacements were not big drop offs at all. The drop offs in production were distinct and measurable and come in three forms:
Offense (specifically hitting w/ RISP), bullpen, and Lowe, ordered from biggest to least in impact. Our pitching stats in 2011 came out fine. If you watched the last 20 games and honestly thought the downgrade of Delgado and Teheran from JJ and Hanson was even a sliver of the damage done by a perpetual inability to get hits with runners on, I question your ability to make a simple baseball analysis. Having Hanson and JJ would have been great, but they’re not the reason we lost 18 of the last 27.
We averaged 3.17 runs/game during that span with a .163 BA w/ RISP. Yeah. There’s your meltdown.
by crimsonqueen9 on Oct 1, 2011 8:41 AM EDT up reply actions
Good move ...
However (and I know it’s probably rare to switch hitting coaches mid-season),I really do think this move should have been made months ago. TP was right there, and already has a rapport with the hitters.
Parrish was an odd choice from the start though, don’t really know what FW/FG were thinking in hiring him in the first place.
Have to wonder how TP felt over this whole ride. There was talk that TP would actually be promoted to manager when Bobby retired, enter Fredi.
Fredi and Frank start preaching AGGRESSIVE baseball, bring in Parrish to make the hitters AGGRESSIVE. Gets (basically) a demotion to 1B coach. Gets to spend the entire season watching the hitting flounder (particularly the guys who were the most consistent and successful under him the previous season).
Q: If not us, who? If not now, when? A: The Batman. And "when you least expect it."
I wondered that myself
More than once as the year wore on. It must be really hard to have to bite your tongue in a situation like that.
Yep, we already had someone in house (TP) that could have taken the role again. Lots of people fussed about TP’s approach last year, but Parrish showed us it could indeed be worse.
~ "Curve: The loveliest distance between two points." ~ Mae West ~
Like The Move
I’m usually reluctant to put blame on coaches. But it looked, organizationally, like the Braves just had poor at bats and poor approaches.
For example, I kept noticing that every player on the team would swing at straight changeups low in the zone. I realize that’s a tough pitch to lay off, but when the entire team is hacking at it, no one is hitting it, and that goes on for months, then you have to be concerned as to whether the whole game plan is flawed.
Frankly, I don’t know how much effect a good hitting coach has on a team. You hear a lot about pitching coaches (maybe because they visit the mound), but rarely hitting coaches. So, I’m really not sure what makes a good one.
This is almost better than
making the playoffs. If we make the playoffs by squeaking out two more wins than we did, i doubt LP gets fired.
Sucks for him, but he sucked for the team. And to all the coach apologists out there….
there is a reason why Don Baylor’s teams consistently abuse pitchers.
Braves.
Falcons.
Gamecocks.
I wonder if he could he had if he were told that the current manager’s job might be in question at this time next year.
Sgt.: Pointed stick? Oh, oh, oh. We want to learn how to defend ourselves against pointed sticks, do we? Getting all high and mighty, eh? Fresh fruit not good enough for you eh? Well I'll tell you something my lad. When you're walking home tonight and some great homicidal maniac comes after you with a bunch of loganberries, don't come crying to me! Now, the passion fruit.
Competing with the Phillies
The front office of the Atlanta Braves have a decision to make. If they bring back this same lack luster, undependable team and staff, get use to watching the playoff’s from home. Firing Larry Parrish is a great start. Next, check out how many baserunner’s got thrown out at home, 3rd and 2nd after getting waved by Brain Snitker, he needs to go too. The bullpen and Roger McDowell are about the only bright spots for the team right now. Lowe and Jurrjens need to go and build a starting rotation around Tim Hudson and if he can stay healthy, Tommy Hanson. McCann and Ross are solid at Catcher, at 1st, Freddie Freeman should share with Eric Hinske until he improves as a hitter, defense looked great, but his hitting was blochy. 2nd Base is fine providing we don’t see another 3 month slump out of Dan in 2012, get rid of Conrad, put a better hitter on the bench. at SS nobody can complain about Gozo’s defense, but man he sucks as a clutch hitter, he ranks around the top in hitting into douple plays, I think we could put up with a few errors, for someone that can drive in some runs, Reyes, Phillips good opitions. 3rd Base…..I love Chipper as much as anyone, but his everyday 3rd base days are over. I would love to see him as a Player/Hitting Coach/ Pinch Hitter role. Aramis Ramirez would be a good sign at 3rd. Bourn in center is solid, keep him. Right field, I hate to say, Heyward has not developed into the All-Star the Braves need, his prospect of becoming a great player are looking slim but a Heyward, Constanza, Diaz might work there. Then there is Prado, who btw is not a 3rd baseman, let’s make that clear first. I like Prado but keeping him will make us weak at Left or 3rd. If Heyward stays, he will have to go, 2 outfield positions can not have a 2-3 man rotation. Last there is Fredi Gonzalez, who has never won a championship, never have a winning record as manager before coming to Atlanta and will never be better than middle of the pack, great guy, I like Fredi but that is keeping it real. The best and most important move Frank Wren could make right now, sign Francona before someone else does. He has 2 World Series wins in Boston with probably the weakest farm system in all of baseball. This man could bring the 1st World Series to Turner Field, miss this chance and get use to seeing the Braves as a middle of the pack, Phillies punching bag. Good luck next year Braves!
Freeman's hitting "blochy?"
Almost netting a rookie triple crown seemed pretty awesome to me.
Also:
Last there is Fredi Gonzalez, who has never won a championship, never have a winning record as manager before coming to Atlanta and will never be better than middle of the pack, great guy, I like Fredi but that is keeping it real.
I can’t stand Fredi, but he’s had two winning seasons with a crappy Marlins team.
The best and most important move Frank Wren could make right now, sign Francona before someone else does. He has 2 World Series wins in Boston with probably the weakest farm system in all of baseball. This man could bring the 1st World Series to Turner Field, miss this chance and get use to seeing the Braves as a middle of the pack, Phillies punching bag.
It doesn’t matter how strong your farm system is if you’re talking about winning World Series, it matters how strong the team you field in the majors is. It’s not like Boston had a rag-tag team of misfit ballplayers that Francona was somehow able to rally towards a miraculous season.
Most people use statistics the way a drunk would use a lamppost—for support, and not for illumination.
www.duwanis.com
Freddie Freeman
To my knowledge there is no MLB Rookie Triple Crown, Don’t get me wrong, I think Freddie can be another Chipper Jones at 1st in a few years, until then, He needs some there to back him up, like Hinske.As far as Francona, Fredi G don’t sit at the same table with him. He didn’t get to the World Series twice by accident and odds are Fredi G won’t ever.
To my knowledge there is no MLB Rookie Triple Crown
Not officially. But Freeman was top of the league for rookies in hits and homers (top in all of baseball for hits actually), and 4th in the league for AVG. That’s not shabby.
He needs some there to back him up, like Hinske.
What do you think we get by platooning him with Hinske? It’s definitely not defense, and Hinske is going to be far more valuable off-the-bench than if you give him a semi-regular starting job.
As far as Francona, Fredi G don’t sit at the same table with him. He didn’t get to the World Series twice by accident and odds are Fredi G won’t ever.
You don’t get to the World Series twice on the strength of your chutzpah, either. There’s a lot more that goes into winning than managerial skills – even without all of Fredi’s missteps, if our offense had been firing on all cylinders this year for more than a month or two we’d be in the playoffs right now.
Most people use statistics the way a drunk would use a lamppost—for support, and not for illumination.
www.duwanis.com
Why would you want this: .233 .311 .403 .713 to play instead of this: .282 .346 .448 .795
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Oct 1, 2011 3:35 PM EDT up reply actions
I’m confused. There’s so much good in this post, and so much bad.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Oct 1, 2011 3:17 PM EDT up reply actions
Even a blind squirrel...
The thing I don’t get is why one mediocre year is enough for everybody to assume Heyward’s a has-been (or perhaps more accurately, a ‘never-was’). Did Frenchy leave that much of a stigma?
Most people use statistics the way a drunk would use a lamppost—for support, and not for illumination.
www.duwanis.com
I don’t buy it at all. Heyward’s primary long-term weakness is being injury prone. Beyond that he has all the skill in the world and will absolutely figure it out. Nothing to worry about, but I agree that people are probably still sensitive from “the Natural”
Sgt.: Pointed stick? Oh, oh, oh. We want to learn how to defend ourselves against pointed sticks, do we? Getting all high and mighty, eh? Fresh fruit not good enough for you eh? Well I'll tell you something my lad. When you're walking home tonight and some great homicidal maniac comes after you with a bunch of loganberries, don't come crying to me! Now, the passion fruit.
I'm not even sure I really buy the "injury prone" label just yet, either
I mean, really, he’s had two damning injuries so far, and both of them were made a lot worse by the fact that he tried to play through them (which is far more worrying to me – playing through a tweak is one thing, but if you can’t swing the bat, you’re not doing anybody any favors).
Most people use statistics the way a drunk would use a lamppost—for support, and not for illumination.
www.duwanis.com
Injury prone from me is a product of his big frame. I totally buy that in a specialized sport built on bursts of activity, and reports on his back fragility (which can be easily fixed with stretching and a special regimen) just confirm this. I still think he is going to be a superstar, but my concerns aren’t about his potential.
Sgt.: Pointed stick? Oh, oh, oh. We want to learn how to defend ourselves against pointed sticks, do we? Getting all high and mighty, eh? Fresh fruit not good enough for you eh? Well I'll tell you something my lad. When you're walking home tonight and some great homicidal maniac comes after you with a bunch of loganberries, don't come crying to me! Now, the passion fruit.
Losing the ball in the lights
With our entire season on the line, Heyward loses a flyball in the lights that allow 2 runs to score against the Phillies Wednesday night….remember that? That highlights his horrible season….I have seen enough really, keep and and regret it next year….
Chipper did the same thing…in a more crucial game.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Oct 1, 2011 3:33 PM EDT up reply actions
[comment removed for violation of terms of use]
by a hooter's baby on Oct 1, 2011 3:34 PM EDT up reply actions
OK, let's also get rid of:
Kimbrel
Venters
Hudson
Freeman
They all screwed up that game, too.
Most people use statistics the way a drunk would use a lamppost—for support, and not for illumination.
www.duwanis.com
That's pretty childish dude....
Heyward is not that good, get over it and move on. His stats speaks for that.
Soooo
If, God forbid, Freddie has a Heyward-esque sophomore slump next year, should we get rid of him too?
by a hooter's baby on Oct 1, 2011 3:49 PM EDT up reply actions
Sophomore Slump in Baseball?
Sorry but that don’t float in baseball. Multi-year slumps in baseball are called washout’s. I watched the Braves all through the 80’s with fan develped love affairs with player’s and you know what that got the Braves? The first thing the Braves did right was to trade Dale Murphy and start signing Players who want to win. It’s time to get back to what works and keeping players who don’t perform does not work. If they can’t play, I’m not above trading anyone.
What does Dale Murphy have to do with a Sophomore Slump?
And, more importantly, who’s having a “multi-year slump?”
Most people use statistics the way a drunk would use a lamppost—for support, and not for illumination.
www.duwanis.com
I'll never forget
How important Jeff Parrett, Jim Vatcher and Kevin Dean were to the Braves success in the ’90s…
As for giving up on Heyward, I can recall almost the same exact bullshit being said and written about Jermaine Dye after the ’96 Series. They gave him away for Michael Tucker and that DP machine Lockhart and he went on to a very fine career.
I’ve regretted that trade for 15 years and Jermaine, as much as I always loved his game, wasn’t anywhere near Jason Heyward on the talent scale. Not interested in a rerun.
What stats, exactly, speak to that?
We’re talking about ditching a guy because, in his slump year – a year he spent part of playing injured, and another part mostly playing off the bench – he put up a league-average wOBA. If we were talking about a sport where sophomore slumps were rare and indicative of failure, then I’d agree with you. But sophomore slumps are common in baseball, and typically just mean that a player needs a bit of time (and some help, which I doubt he got from LP) to counter-adjust to the league.
And yes, it is pretty childish to dismiss someone because of one mistake. Glad you picked up on my point there. :)
Most people use statistics the way a drunk would use a lamppost—for support, and not for illumination.
www.duwanis.com
by duwanis on Oct 1, 2011 3:55 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
You're right, how could we all have missed it?
AVG is on the scoreboard, after all.
Most people use statistics the way a drunk would use a lamppost—for support, and not for illumination.
www.duwanis.com
I really don't know how to respond
I’m stumped
by a hooter's baby on Oct 1, 2011 4:25 PM EDT up reply actions
Just do what I did.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Oct 1, 2011 5:22 PM EDT up reply actions
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHA!
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Oct 1, 2011 5:22 PM EDT up reply actions
I know we're supposed to be nice and pleasant around here
But reading your posts is making me feel dumber.
by crimsonqueen9 on Oct 1, 2011 5:52 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Only if you don’t value getting on base or defense. Heyward’s season last year was much better than Freeman’s season this year. I like Freeman and he had a very good season but his plate discipline is an issue that could prevent him from ever reaching the heights Heyward is capable of.
Freeman had some flashes of discipline throughout the year
I’m hoping that’s a sign that he’s learning, and not a sign that he occasionally got lucky. :)
Most people use statistics the way a drunk would use a lamppost—for support, and not for illumination.
www.duwanis.com
I like Freeman and he had a very good season but his plate discipline is an issue that could prevent him from ever reaching the heights Heyward is capable of.
Would it not be fair for Heyward to reach those heights before compairing people to them? Heyward had an Injury or 2 last year where Freeman has basicly played all year at 1st. So many times Freeman dug the ball from the dirt or stabbed line drives, compaired to Heywards average defense? I said originally that I would like to see Heyward come back and be everything everyone thought he would be but until he proves that he can he will share with Constanza and Diaz if he does come back…
Seeing as how he was trying to compare the potential of the two players
No, it makes no sense to wait and see how well they do before making that comparison. That’s the whole point of “potential” – you’re trying to imagine what happens next.
Freeman’s defense wasn’t really all that great in aggregate – his range is kind of terrible. He’s all sorts of fun to watch over there when he’s pickin’ it, or when he’s diving after the drives that are in his range, but he wasn’t really a plus first baseman defensively this year. (I hope this improves in the future; he got all sorts of defensive accolades in the minors.)
Heyward’s defense, though, by all the advanced defensive metrics we have available (which are admittedly not perfect for this comparison, but are, imo, the best we’ve got) is above-average, and significantly better than either Constanza’s or Diaz’s play at the position.
Most people use statistics the way a drunk would use a lamppost—for support, and not for illumination.
www.duwanis.com
Fantasy....Pure Fantasy
That’s a ridiculous statement about Freeman’s defense, You are obviously a big Heyward Fan and I’m not putting you down for that. I would love to see Heyward put up League Leading numbers and cover the field like KGjr but it hasn’t happened yet. Constanza has a lot more range and speed and Diaz has much better plate presence. I would like nothing more than for him to have a break out season next year, make me eat my words and earn the full time starter job in right field….
Back that up with something more than an assertion that I'm crazy
Here’s my information.
Heyward’s Defense
Constanza’s Defense
Diaz’s Defense
Most people use statistics the way a drunk would use a lamppost—for support, and not for illumination.
www.duwanis.com
Somewhat OT
But UZR is mostly useless for Freeman since it only measures balls hit to him by the batter and doesn’t give him points for what he does best: pick bad throws and make good stretches from the bag.
For the OF, it’s fine.
by crimsonqueen9 on Oct 1, 2011 5:59 PM EDT up reply actions
I agree, it's generally meaningless with firstbasemen
Of course, it’s not inaccurate to say that Freeman’s range was disappointing-he needs to a do a better job fielding to his right. But I still don’t think too much of it when I hear that he’s a terrible defensive 1B. I think he balances out his lack of range with really good hands and good size to reel in off-target throws, and he’s average.
In general, yes, I think UZR has much more to say about outfielders than infielders. There’s much missing or ignored data with infielders for me to really feel good about what it says.
My buddy and I just decided that the braves would be set if we could get Matt Kemp, Jose Reyes, and Albert Pujols.
by willlinn on May 17, 2011 2:13 PM EDT
To be fair to me. :)
I was trying to be careful not to call out UZR specifically for exactly this reason. I was also careful not to say that Freeman’s defense sucks – which is what his UZR suggests – just that he’s not really that great when you consider his range, which I think we can all (except for Allen Lawson) agree on.
Most people use statistics the way a drunk would use a lamppost—for support, and not for illumination.
www.duwanis.com
Are we watching the same team?
Diaz has much better plate presence
by a hooter's baby on Oct 1, 2011 5:23 PM EDT up reply actions
The dude is clearly a Heyward Hater.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Oct 1, 2011 5:24 PM EDT up reply actions
There’s no other explanation that I can think of without being mean.
by a hooter's baby on Oct 1, 2011 5:30 PM EDT up reply actions
Based on some of his other posts, I don’t think he really knows that much about the Braves or baseball in general.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Oct 1, 2011 5:31 PM EDT up reply actions
Yep
The post below the Diaz picture confirms it
by a hooter's baby on Oct 1, 2011 5:40 PM EDT up reply actions
I was thinking the same thing about you....lol
I’ve been watching the Braves before you were born…..Don’t whine because not everyone thinks Jason Heyward is the best thing that’s ever happeded to the Braves…He is good as gone anyway….
1. You don’t know when I was born.
2. I don’t care if you have been watching the Braves since Hank Aaron – you clearly are not the most astute fan.
3. Nobody is saying that Heyward is the best thing ever – we are saying that he doesn’t suck, and for you to claim he does based on his stats shows your ignorance.
4. He isn’t going anywhere. He is not being traded. Do you know who Frank Wren is?
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Oct 1, 2011 5:53 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
He's right, though
When a guy looks this relaxed at the plate, he’s kind of intimidating.
Most people use statistics the way a drunk would use a lamppost—for support, and not for illumination.
www.duwanis.com
(Matt Diaz) Lifetime .296 Hitter with .780 OBP
http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/players/7184
smoking crack and posting should be illegal somewhere…
.780 OBP?
Man, he’s really fallen off of the horse lately, then, if that’s his career average.
Most people use statistics the way a drunk would use a lamppost—for support, and not for illumination.
www.duwanis.com
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Oct 1, 2011 5:36 PM EDT up reply actions
Including this year's slump
Heyward ranks #10 among MLB RFers in WAR.
He’s ahead of guys like Berkman, Eithier, Ichiro, Markakis and Cuddyer.
You are delusional if you think his stats say he sucks.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Oct 1, 2011 5:44 PM EDT up reply actions
From 2010-2011
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Oct 1, 2011 5:44 PM EDT up reply actions
Can't look at last year imo.
He clearly wasn’t the same player. His issues were contact related, not luck.
'There are two pains in life. There is the pain of discipline and the pain of disappointment. If you can handle the pain of discipline, then you'll never have to deal with the pain of disappointment,'- Nick Saban
Wait, I can’t look at 1 of his two years?
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Oct 1, 2011 5:48 PM EDT up reply actions
You can.
But while you’re looking at the stats I’d also suggest watching some video and noticing how he was consistently swinging through or barely making contact with pitches he was driving with some consistency in 2010. My theory?
'There are two pains in life. There is the pain of discipline and the pain of disappointment. If you can handle the pain of discipline, then you'll never have to deal with the pain of disappointment,'- Nick Saban
That just makes Justin's point stronger, though
He was clearly not himself this year and yet he’s still #10 among RFers in WAR, even including this data.
Most people use statistics the way a drunk would use a lamppost—for support, and not for illumination.
www.duwanis.com
For TWO years.
He wasn’t top 10 this year.
'There are two pains in life. There is the pain of discipline and the pain of disappointment. If you can handle the pain of discipline, then you'll never have to deal with the pain of disappointment,'- Nick Saban
Ah, I see what you're saying
Yeah, if he doesn’t ever adjust, he’s not going to stay near the top for long. But I’d say the good bet is that he figures it out, especially if we get a good batting coach and Fredi doesn’t deny him ABs
Most people use statistics the way a drunk would use a lamppost—for support, and not for illumination.
www.duwanis.com
Right, but my point is that he is so good, that despite his struggles, he’s STILL a top 10 RF.
You are correct that he wasn’t this year. He had a bad year. We all know that. So there really is no use in talking about where he ranked this year.
But interestingly enough, a “Bad” year for Heyward was still better than any other OFer on our roster, except Bourn.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Oct 1, 2011 5:55 PM EDT up reply actions
Which is a referendum on our roster, nothing more.
'There are two pains in life. There is the pain of discipline and the pain of disappointment. If you can handle the pain of discipline, then you'll never have to deal with the pain of disappointment,'- Nick Saban
Correct.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Oct 1, 2011 5:57 PM EDT up reply actions
We really need a damn OF bat.
Sorely. I’d gladly put Prado in the Omar role if we could find one.
'There are two pains in life. There is the pain of discipline and the pain of disappointment. If you can handle the pain of discipline, then you'll never have to deal with the pain of disappointment,'- Nick Saban
Even this season
Heyward put up a 2.2 WAR – which is considerably better than league average, assuming a league average player is worth 1 WAR
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Oct 1, 2011 5:59 PM EDT up reply actions
That's not a middle-of-the-order guy
we thought we had though.
'There are two pains in life. There is the pain of discipline and the pain of disappointment. If you can handle the pain of discipline, then you'll never have to deal with the pain of disappointment,'- Nick Saban
He will be. Don’t worry.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Oct 1, 2011 6:04 PM EDT up reply actions
I'm hoping right along with you bro.
'There are two pains in life. There is the pain of discipline and the pain of disappointment. If you can handle the pain of discipline, then you'll never have to deal with the pain of disappointment,'- Nick Saban
In my opinion, with two relatively different years that we should err on the side of predicted skill level. If we have a mixed bag (still generally positive) on a player who oozes talent, that we should assume an adjustment can and will be made. Why would you assume anything different?
Sgt.: Pointed stick? Oh, oh, oh. We want to learn how to defend ourselves against pointed sticks, do we? Getting all high and mighty, eh? Fresh fruit not good enough for you eh? Well I'll tell you something my lad. When you're walking home tonight and some great homicidal maniac comes after you with a bunch of loganberries, don't come crying to me! Now, the passion fruit.
And he has to prove he can adjust too.
'There are two pains in life. There is the pain of discipline and the pain of disappointment. If you can handle the pain of discipline, then you'll never have to deal with the pain of disappointment,'- Nick Saban
Dammit.
My theory is that pitchers figured out the way to beat him is to lead him outside, off the plate, then bust him in. He wants to hit the outside pitch so he rolls over it for the 4-3, and can’t get around on the inside pitch when he’s falling all over the plate.
'There are two pains in life. There is the pain of discipline and the pain of disappointment. If you can handle the pain of discipline, then you'll never have to deal with the pain of disappointment,'- Nick Saban
To argue with an idiot is like selling ice to eskimos
Justin and Mr Pringles have their heart set on Heyward getting the MVP even though he has done nothing to deserve it….Save your typing finger….lmao Bahaaaaahahah Morons
Dude,don't bring me in on your trolling bullshit.
'There are two pains in life. There is the pain of discipline and the pain of disappointment. If you can handle the pain of discipline, then you'll never have to deal with the pain of disappointment,'- Nick Saban
by J Tadpole on Oct 1, 2011 5:59 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Well, that's two flags.
'There are two pains in life. There is the pain of discipline and the pain of disappointment. If you can handle the pain of discipline, then you'll never have to deal with the pain of disappointment,'- Nick Saban
You too loser....
Clapping hands together like " the Gator Chomp"…. Alabama is the only state where you greet people by saying..“How’s you sister doing and when is ya’lls baby due”
Three flags.
'There are two pains in life. There is the pain of discipline and the pain of disappointment. If you can handle the pain of discipline, then you'll never have to deal with the pain of disappointment,'- Nick Saban
I'm not from Alabama
“Crimson” is from being a redhead.
Isn’t there a limit to painful irony one can excrete in one day?
by crimsonqueen9 on Oct 1, 2011 8:23 PM EDT up reply actions
I’m just dumbfounded.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Oct 1, 2011 6:04 PM EDT up reply actions
Then you're not looking at it appropriately.
I’ve been laughing all afternoon.
/me is contemplating changing his screenname to “Mr. Pringles for Heyward for MVP”
Most people use statistics the way a drunk would use a lamppost—for support, and not for illumination.
www.duwanis.com
The cat nap approach to hitting, I like it.
Sgt.: Pointed stick? Oh, oh, oh. We want to learn how to defend ourselves against pointed sticks, do we? Getting all high and mighty, eh? Fresh fruit not good enough for you eh? Well I'll tell you something my lad. When you're walking home tonight and some great homicidal maniac comes after you with a bunch of loganberries, don't come crying to me! Now, the passion fruit.
Actually, his stats speak to quite the opposite.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Oct 1, 2011 5:21 PM EDT up reply actions
Clearly.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Oct 1, 2011 5:36 PM EDT up reply actions
lesson
Lets keep expectations for FF down low. Many of you were predicting next Pujols from J-Hey; and now he had a bad year and there is talk the Braves might move him.
Ease the pressure on Freddie before we start the season please
by PhuckthePhillies on Oct 1, 2011 4:02 PM EDT reply actions
Exactly....
There is no doubt, Heyward will be part of a trade for a Quality Starting Pitcher, Bank on it. I would be surprised to see Jurrjens, Prado and Lowe back year either. Thats baseball and shouldn’t everyone want the Braves to have the best chance to win every game?
There is literally zero sense to this idea
1) Whether you like him or not, Heyward has the potential to be a major star. It’s true that that may not pan out for a variety of reasons, but it’s way too early to tell. If we try to get rid of him now, we’re going to be selling really low.
2) We are flush with quality starting pitchers. Why would we try to trade for more of that? If we make any trades this off-season, it’ll be for a SS, LF, or RP.
Most people use statistics the way a drunk would use a lamppost—for support, and not for illumination.
www.duwanis.com
We are flush with quality starting pitchers. Why would we try to trade for more of that? If we make any trades this off-season, it’ll be for a SS, LF, or RP.
Jurrjens and Hanson never started a game in September and Lowe never won one but we are flush with Starting Pitching? Are you playing MLB for X-Box or watching the real team on TV and at Turner Field? Come on dude, If he comes back to Atlanta next year it will mean less money and shared playing time. He will have to earn his keep now.
Oh snap, he played the injury card.
Don’t even count Lowe.
Hudson
Hanson
Jurrjens
Beachy
Minor
Delgado
Teheran
Vizcaino
Medlen*
And those are just the guys who could be ready to start for us come April. We’ve got other options coming up in the system who can help with depth if we run through all 9* of those guys this year.
* I personally like the idea of keeping Meds in the bullpen unless we really need a spot-start from him, but he’s still technically an option for the rotation.
Most people use statistics the way a drunk would use a lamppost—for support, and not for illumination.
www.duwanis.com
Rookies
Half are Rookies….Why is that hard to understand? Outside of Hudson, Medlin, Beachy, Hanson and (maybe) Minor. Delgado, Teheran and Vizcaino need more time. Hudson, Hanson (if healthy) are the only proven veterans, the rest are questionable. Remember the Phillies have Halladay, Oswalt, Lee and Hamels, compete with that or mop the basement in the NL East.
Wait, rookies can't be any good?
MY ENTIRE CONCEPTUAL MODEL OF EVALUATING BASEBALL TALENT HAS BEEN DEALT A MORTAL BLOW.
Most people use statistics the way a drunk would use a lamppost—for support, and not for illumination.
www.duwanis.com
Evaluating Talent.....?
Maddux, Smoltz, Glavine were evaluated in the Minors, They came to the Majors and Won Cy Youngs, Won Playoff games and set records for strike outs, era etc. You don’t sacrifice important regular season games for the sake of getting rookies some playing time.
None of those guys set records for strikeouts or ERA.
Maddux and Smoltz came up through other organizations, not Atlanta, so our minor league talent evaluators didn’t evaluate them.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Oct 1, 2011 5:30 PM EDT up reply actions
Everybody has to be a rookie at some point, by definition.
Saying “but they’re going to be rookies” is just silly, and shows that you really don’t know anything about their talent.
By the way, Glavine and Maddux both had lackluster rookie years. :) Smoltz is the only one of the three you mentioned who came in and was performing immediately.
Most people use statistics the way a drunk would use a lamppost—for support, and not for illumination.
www.duwanis.com
Smoltz actually had a pretty terrible 1st year too.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Oct 1, 2011 5:33 PM EDT up reply actions
'89 wasn't technically his rookie year?
Most people use statistics the way a drunk would use a lamppost—for support, and not for illumination.
www.duwanis.com
IDK
he pitched 64 innings in ’88
But that’s why I said “his 1st year”. IDK which was his technical rookie year.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Oct 1, 2011 5:35 PM EDT up reply actions
ROY Award qualifications
Are 50 innings pitched or less or less than 45 days on any MLB roster. John was up for the last two months of ’88, so I think it qualified as his actual rookie year.
Gracias
If so, then yeah, he had a terrible rookie year too.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Oct 2, 2011 1:20 AM EDT up reply actions
My bad
serves the point even better, though.
Most people use statistics the way a drunk would use a lamppost—for support, and not for illumination.
www.duwanis.com
why are we even talking to this guy?
He’s either an obnoxious stuck-up who has on numerous times in this thread alone shown unwavering ignorance of advanced statistics and basic baseball fundamentals, or, more likely IMO, is trolling us for shits and giggles by hitting the usual sore spots (Heyward sucks, the young pitching isn’t that great)…next he’s going to start telling us that O’Ventebral is over rated and we need to trade for Rivera.
by crimsonqueen9 on Oct 1, 2011 6:07 PM EDT up reply actions
Because it's funny to see what he's going to throw out next?
Most people use statistics the way a drunk would use a lamppost—for support, and not for illumination.
www.duwanis.com
Yeah I mean that Matt Moore guy making his second start ever was just no good for Tampa. Cheap young pitching can never help a team stay in contention for multiple years……..
I have no idea how SF won the World Series without any veteran pitchers with playoff experience on their team!
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Oct 1, 2011 11:26 PM EDT up reply actions
The value of an innings eating ace is self-evident, especially for this Braves club. Barring a mutually beneficial move for a guy like that (Which is absolutely possible considering that the Braves have more good young pitchers than they can use) then we shouldn’t do anything. But the Braves can benefit as much by adding an ace than anything else. That is really a position that has gone unfilled for the Braves for years despite having great pitching.
Sgt.: Pointed stick? Oh, oh, oh. We want to learn how to defend ourselves against pointed sticks, do we? Getting all high and mighty, eh? Fresh fruit not good enough for you eh? Well I'll tell you something my lad. When you're walking home tonight and some great homicidal maniac comes after you with a bunch of loganberries, don't come crying to me! Now, the passion fruit.
We used almost all of those guys this year
The only ones who didn’t start a game were Vizzy and Meds, and Meds certainly would have (in my opinion) if he hadn’t been recovering from TJ. We’re talking about relegating Lowe to the bullpen, and one of the other pitchers may be a trade piece.
You’re going to have a tough time convincing me that just because we have more than 5 pitchers who can start, we won’t use them all or get any value out of having that kind of depth.
Most people use statistics the way a drunk would use a lamppost—for support, and not for illumination.
www.duwanis.com
Spot starts from Teheran and Delgado absolutely do not get their full value, unless the rotation was extended. Their value is as an every 5 day starter, not to be available for injuries.
Sgt.: Pointed stick? Oh, oh, oh. We want to learn how to defend ourselves against pointed sticks, do we? Getting all high and mighty, eh? Fresh fruit not good enough for you eh? Well I'll tell you something my lad. When you're walking home tonight and some great homicidal maniac comes after you with a bunch of loganberries, don't come crying to me! Now, the passion fruit.
So, let me get this straight
Anyone who’s not on the 25-man is having their value wasted?
Most people use statistics the way a drunk would use a lamppost—for support, and not for illumination.
www.duwanis.com
That is a complete oversimplification, but I’ll respond in kind. Would Huddy be maximizing his value if he was working from the bullpen, or would Bourn be maximizing his value if he was a 4th OF?
Sgt.: Pointed stick? Oh, oh, oh. We want to learn how to defend ourselves against pointed sticks, do we? Getting all high and mighty, eh? Fresh fruit not good enough for you eh? Well I'll tell you something my lad. When you're walking home tonight and some great homicidal maniac comes after you with a bunch of loganberries, don't come crying to me! Now, the passion fruit.
If we had 3 OFers better than Bourn, or 5 pitchers better than Huddy
Yes.
Most people use statistics the way a drunk would use a lamppost—for support, and not for illumination.
www.duwanis.com
And this is kind of true. If they are of a high caliber but are blocked and aren’t seeing the majors then they are definitely not providing any ML value.
There is no way that a good player provides as much value by not playing in the majors as they do from playing, that’s just obvious.
Sgt.: Pointed stick? Oh, oh, oh. We want to learn how to defend ourselves against pointed sticks, do we? Getting all high and mighty, eh? Fresh fruit not good enough for you eh? Well I'll tell you something my lad. When you're walking home tonight and some great homicidal maniac comes after you with a bunch of loganberries, don't come crying to me! Now, the passion fruit.
Sure there is...
A good player can provide more value by not being on the 25-man roster, and thus not using service time, while the players they will eventually replace (and spell, in times of injury or fatigue) fulfill the ends of their contracts.
Once those players have fulfilled their contract, the replacement steps in with a greater amount of experience and provides more on-field value for a longer period of time because they haven’t used a great amount of service time in the first place.
Just because Mike Minor was likely ML-ready the full season doesn’t mean he provided the team less value, for instance. He’s still likely to have less than a full year of service time going into next season, so the Braves have maximized his total value by maintaining his six full years of service time.
Would you rather have 3 WAR and five years of service time remaining or 2 WAR and six years?? Since Minor is incredibly likely to improve rather than regress, I’d take the latter all day long. There’s no need to try to cash in all of a player’s value up-front, especially when he’s more likely to be better later than sooner.
-C
It’s rough to sit through these games and not have someone that can’t hit a Ball?
This.
Sometimes the best way for a player to help the ML club is to stay ready in the MiLB for when they’re needed.
Most people use statistics the way a drunk would use a lamppost—for support, and not for illumination.
www.duwanis.com
there is no way they trade heyward this offseason.
what talks to trade him? because buster olney made something up? c’mon.
Braves.
Falcons.
Gamecocks.
The Braves aren’t moving him. Buster Olney trolled you.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Oct 1, 2011 5:23 PM EDT up reply actions
Joe Simpson
just read a screen graphic about the Cardinals wild card chase. He didn’t seem too happy while reading it.
You know the guys at FOX were snickering about that one.
“Hey, I know, let’s make the Braves guy read it!”
Most people use statistics the way a drunk would use a lamppost—for support, and not for illumination.
www.duwanis.com
Thanks.
I got a little over-zealous there.
Most people use statistics the way a drunk would use a lamppost—for support, and not for illumination.
www.duwanis.com
This thread needs this right at the top.
How long is Talking Chop going to let this idiotic Fredi Gonzales witch hunt continue?
It’s not a witch hunt if you already know what the problem is and where it’s at.
Also, I’m not sure it’s in the best interest of a sports blog to regulate and dictate the opinions of its constituents.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Oct 3, 2011 4:01 PM EDT up reply actions
this is a silly statement
Do you really think TC should censor thoughts of its contributors? Really?
It ain’t a witch hunt. It’s called criticism. If you watch sports, I’m sure you’ve heard of it.
Whereas people in the South are all ignorant, uneducated rednecks, everyone in Philadelphia is very sophisticated and exceedingly intelligent. It is not known exactly how such extraordinary genes came together in this one location.
-- Unknown
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