Say-Hey What? Are Braves Souring On Heyward
by gondeee on Sep 30, 2011 8:36 AM EDT
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In this morning's column, ESPN analyst Buster Olney drops this bomb about Jason Heyward:
He has been viewed an organizational building block, but he struggled through injuries and slumps in 2011, and there are voices within the franchise asking the question of whether he can be counted on. With Chipper Jones nearing the end of his career, the Braves have needed another middle-of-the-order hitter, and a year ago, their hope was that Heyward would be that guy. The Braves need power production out of right field. Now there is some sentiment within the organization that Atlanta might be better off dealing Heyward and taking advantage of his value or, at the very least, considering alternatives as they wait for him to develop.
The Braves have a lot of excellent young pitching, and they have everyday regulars entrenched at catcher and at first, second and third base and in two outfield spots. But they need to identify a shortstop, and they need to decide what they think Heyward will become, because they have a lot invested in him.
If the Braves brass think for one minute about trading Jason Heyward, then they need to fire themselves. Even in a down year Heyward was better than any of the other regular Braves outfielders. Yes, he was better than Martin Prado, better than Michael Bourn and anything that came before him in center field. All this from a kid who turned 22 just over a month ago.
I would imagine we will hear a lot of people around the web calling out Heyward for one reason or another this off-season, but the organization needs to stick with him and show confidence in him when others won't. Heyward knows he needs to improve, and he wants to be that middle of the order replacement for Chipper, let's wait and see how he responds to the struggles of this past season.
When people ask me about Heyward's struggles, my answer goes something like this: 2011 is really the first time Heyward has ever struggled at baseball, probably in his life! He was so good at a young age in high school that no one would pitch to him. He dominated every level of the minor leagues during his lighting fast rise to the majors, where he had one of the best rookie seasons of any Braves rookie in the history of the franchise. Heyward's struggles this year are as much about learning how to adjust and play through injuries as they are about learning how to overcome the struggles that every player goes through -- something J-Hey may never have experienced before.
If the Braves trade Heyward they'd be making a huge mistake. Now, trading Martin Prado ... that I will discuss.
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It wouldn't surprise me
if the “voice in the organization” that isn’t sure about Heyward is Fredi.
"I don’t know what he’s done differently, whether he’s eating differently or Sue is making him happier, but he’s definitely a different coach out there" Devon Still
Are we not above the possible scenario that...
this might be a controlled leak designed to light some fire under Heyward’s butt?
by TBuzz on Sep 30, 2011 8:46 AM EDT via mobile reply actions
It better be.
I’ll say this now: If Heyward is traded, and the return isn’t something like a Mike Trout type, I’ll quit being a Braves fan.
That’s all I can think, that it is ploy to let him know that he has to earn his future stardom, which is an important lesson for any young player. I think it could be done more effectively than this, but I can’t believe for a second we are actually taking suitors for Heyward.
Sgt.: Pointed stick? Oh, oh, oh. We want to learn how to defend ourselves against pointed sticks, do we? Getting all high and mighty, eh? Fresh fruit not good enough for you eh? Well I'll tell you something my lad. When you're walking home tonight and some great homicidal maniac comes after you with a bunch of loganberries, don't come crying to me! Now, the passion fruit.
Really? Quit being a fan? Gonna give up baseball all together or just jump on the first bandwagon you can find?
by sidbreamsstache on Sep 30, 2011 2:03 PM EDT up reply actions
Dammit. That was supposed to be in reply to broccoman.
by sidbreamsstache on Sep 30, 2011 2:04 PM EDT up reply actions
Why not light a fire under Prado? Its hypocritical for Heyward to get treated worse than another player whose performance was worse than his.
Just like any other organization, you have to realize that associates with higher potential require a disproportionate (meaning greater) amount of development. I think the organization gave him the benefit of the doubt when he was rehabbing his injury in the Summer…and considering he actually got worse before he got better in September, I think the time for coddling is over. He’ll have to be accountable for his performance moving forward or he’ll get treated just like any other player. I think that might be the message.
No....No he wasn't
I have no idea of the basis of that statement, but it’s definitely not true. It’s not particularly close either.
"The Braves could use [Loney] at first base to help back up Freddie Freeman, and in return the Dodgers could get Tommy Hanson from the Braves."
Exactly, wheres the stats to back up that statement.
I wouldn’t trade Heyward, but Bourn consistently got on base and Prado was not supposed to be the savior of this team. Heyward needed to have a .270 year with 20 home runs and 80 RBIs to at least make me feel comfortable.
Heyward’s on base percentage was almost exactly the same as Bourn’s. His slugging percentage was .70 points higher… His defense, while not the caliber of Bourn’s, is certainly abover average.
How was he NOT better than Bourn this year?
You'd think I was Travis Tritt struttin my FINE ASS on down to Florida
Just curious – are the comparison of stats for the season or just the time period since Bourn became a Brave?
~ "Curve: The loveliest distance between two points." ~ Mae West ~
Who cares
Bourn looks like a great CF. Heyward is nowhere near a point where any reasonable person would want to cash in. We’ve got both, be happy. We need to add a 4th OF of substantial quality so Prado can play 3rd when Chipper gets hurt, and find a SS. Other than those two areas, we’re pretty well set to get back on the horse come spring.
http://sportsandgrits.com/
by Mr. Sanchez on Sep 30, 2011 10:23 AM EDT up reply actions
so tired of that situation.
Braves.
Falcons.
Gamecocks.
Analyze them to death
you’ll be hard pressed to find much that doesn’t = good player capable of high level productivity with both. Nitpicking between one or the other is pointless. They’re both Braves, and damned good ones.
http://sportsandgrits.com/
First, Bourn’s SLG was only 40 points lower. Also of note, even though Bourn’s OBP is the same as Heyward’s his Avg is higher. When the OBP is the same, the higher avg becomes more valuable bc it contributes to things that aren’t; quantified by stats, namely moving runners.
That said. Bourn had a WAR of 4.2 this year, which is well really friggin good. Meanwhile, Heyward’s WAR was 2.2. And its true Bourn played more, but the excess playing time surely didn’t solely contribute to the extra two 2.
It wasn’t close this year, Bourn was drastically better than Heyward. not that that is relevant in any means whatsoever.
"No. Lonely people mixing with one another? Breeding? Creating an even lonelier generation? You're not even allowing natural selection do its work. Pssh. You're like the guy who invented the seat belt."
Dwight Schrute
do NOT trade prado
I think trading Prado would be a big mistake… he works extremely hard and I know he will turn it around and get back to his all-star form. I do think he would be better suited as an infielder. Hold on to him and have him take over at 3rd when Chipper retires. I think some players just aren’t in the flow of the game as well when they play the outfield after they have played the infield for most of their careers (not sure of stats to support this but i know Chipper struggled when he moved from 3b to LF after Castilla became a Brave). Also, Prado is a team player and always looking out for the team. It’s because of his work ethic and focus on doing what is best for the team that Martin Prado has become one of my favorite Braves. I’d be pissed if they traded him… I don’t think the braves should trade prado either but I think prado has a better chance of bouncing back than heyward (since heyward has probably never experienced this kind of down year and showed throughout the year he can’t adapt). I never saw the heyward of 2010 in 2011. He was using the whole field in 2010 and squaring most of the balls he hit. This year he rolled over most balls and hit weak grounders or k’d. Heyward has a lot of work to do and I hope he can get it turned around.
by BravesFanND on Sep 30, 2011 11:33 AM EDT up reply actions
I agree that trading Heyward is ridiculous
But: “Even in a down year Heyward was better than any of the other regular Braves outfielders. Yes, he was better than Martin Prado,* better than Michael Bourn* and anything that came before him in center field.”
I would love to see how on earth you claim Heyward was better than Bourn. Yes, he had a higher OPS than Bourn’s small sample with the Braves, but that’s mainly because slugging is not the reason you acquire Michael Bourn. In his time in Atlanta, Bourn had a 0.6 WAR, versus Heyward’s 0.7 for the entire season. (Bourn’s 2011 season WAR is 5.0)
So yes, trading Heyward is asinine, but let’s not go crazy and say that he was something he wasn’t this year.
by Torgo's Executive Powder on Sep 30, 2011 8:47 AM EDT reply actions 4 recs
Heyward's bWAR for the season is 2, fWAR is 2.2.
But yeah, the point stands.
Bourn was much better than Heyward this year.
"The Braves could use [Loney] at first base to help back up Freddie Freeman, and in return the Dodgers could get Tommy Hanson from the Braves."
...
I forgot that Heyward played for the Diamondbacks for the first half of the year
"The Braves could use [Loney] at first base to help back up Freddie Freeman, and in return the Dodgers could get Tommy Hanson from the Braves."
...
Bourn was an Astro until late July…
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Sep 30, 2011 5:10 PM EDT up reply actions
…
In his time in Atlanta, Bourn had a 0.6 WAR, versus Heyward’s 0.7 for the entire season.
Not a true statement
"The Braves could use [Loney] at first base to help back up Freddie Freeman, and in return the Dodgers could get Tommy Hanson from the Braves."
That’s fair, but he wasn’t ever insinuating that Heyward played outside of Atlanta.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Sep 30, 2011 8:46 PM EDT up reply actions
Heyward reminds me of Andruw
I don’t know if you were around for the Andruw hype…the biggest burden of his life was his showing in the ‘95 series. After that there was no one who could tell him anything he didn’t already know. Who did that to the kid? We did. This is why Heyward reminds me of a athlete in the same organization heading along a similar path. Sure right now Heyward doesn’t think he is the next greatest thing since…..Andruw, because he was puffed up so much that another kid of lesser expectations wouldn’t feel so bad after this season’s stats, whereas Heyward feels like the earth was pulled out from under him.
In my opinion it wouldn’t be a bad thing for Heyward to be traded, it would give him a chance to clean out the mental locker and start with a clean slate. Heyward would have a renewed determination to make the Braves truly regret what they did…….but what did they really do???? they were and are the ones who have trashed his mental locker!!!!!!!!
the most unselfish, compassionate thing the Braves organization could do would be to trade Heyward to another organization, who would know how to help the “kid”. Some place. Heck trade him to the Cardinals, they know how to build an offense!!!!!!! or to the Phillies (yes I am joking now) …..seriously, I would call the Cards, or tampa Bay, or one of those top offensive stat teams and find out what they think Heyward is worth.
I am not saying give him away. Trade him for equal value, “Player to be Named Later”?
Yes he has the tools, but so did Andruw…….Or maybe make Chipper the hitting instructor. (another joke)
He whose words outnumber his deeds, know that his death is better than his life.
You have your facts wrong, it was the 1996 World Series.
And Andruw and Heyward do not have the same makeup. You’re comparing apples and oranges. And while we can argue as to whether or not Andruw ever lived up to his hype and tools, the guy had a pretty damn good career. He may have flamed out early, but 99% of major league ballplayers would take that career in a heartbeat.
Shockingly enough, young players sometimes struggle. I know, crazy. You only have to look at Braves history to find a perfect example. Ron Gant nearly won the 1988 ROY, similar to Jason last year. The year after, Ron had one of the worst seasons in franchise history. He rebounded to post one of the better seasons in franchise history. If there were blogs back then, I’m sure people would have been calling on the FO to trade/dfa Ron. But alas, they are brighter in these regards than us, and stayed the course.
The Braves know what they have in Jason. Just like the Royals knew what they had in Alex Gordon, just like LA knew what they had in Kemp, etc etc.
Now, if Jason posts another dreadful season in 2011, we can revisit this…:P
by SidBreamsSlide on Sep 30, 2011 10:50 AM EDT up reply actions
You know what, if Heyward ends up being an Andruw type- I’ll take it. I’ll be disappointed in what could have been, but he was a cornerstone for years.
Yeah it would be absolutely devastating if we only got 12 years, 368 HR, 10 Gold Gloves, and a 50 HR campaign out of Jason.
by Torgo's Executive Powder on Sep 30, 2011 1:59 PM EDT up reply actions
Kemp
Give up an arm (Tehran, Minor) and Prado for Kemp, keep Heyward next year then sign whoever has the better year. Re sign Bourn and Constanza would be a stop gap replacement for whichever corner outfielder goes. Also, get Moustakas to replace Jones
by tombowski02 on Sep 30, 2011 8:58 AM EDT via mobile reply actions
LOL WUT
Yeah I’m sure LA is going to trade someone who nearly won the triple crown for a borderline utility guy and Mike Minor. And yeah, let’s just keep running Constanza out there too.
by Torgo's Executive Powder on Sep 30, 2011 9:05 AM EDT up reply actions
actually
to save $$$ they might.
A deal of Teheran + Delgado + Drury + Prado would really get their attention (and the attention of MLB as the Dodgers would be getting relatively decent value on Kemp AND saving a ton of $$$ for the organization).
by JoelGuzman'sScout on Sep 30, 2011 12:03 PM EDT up reply actions
Drury ???
The kid has only had one good season in short season rookie ball ( very small segment ) and you mention him in a trade for Kemp – get a grip !!
by bravesfaninchitown on Sep 30, 2011 12:23 PM EDT up reply actions
Huh?
So let’s get this scenario straight. The Braves need to somehow convince the Dodgers to part with one of the 3 best players in the NL, somehow convince the Royals to give up one of their top prospects after getting Kemp, and then, as the ultimate kicker, negate it all by making the final plan to start Jose Costanza after either Kemp or Heyward leaves? Brilliant. Absolutely brilliant.
by mqtbravesfan on Sep 30, 2011 3:26 PM EDT up reply actions
I think trading Prado is a must
I don’t see him as an everyday player and the Braves clearly a have him as one. But his value is still relatively high and I don’t think he ever comes close to last year in statistics unless he plays 90-120 gms off the bench
If they could just get him back to his proper position...
He could still be an everyday player. Not with numbers like this year, but I’m willing to assume this was a down year that won’t be repeated.
I guess one bad year after two good ones...
…makes you not an every day player. That’s a bit nuts, but, hey, whatever floats your boat.
Prado wasn't a one year wonder
His wOBA was over .350 for three straight years from 2008-2010. He had a terrible season this year, but trading him at an all time low value makes little sense.
by Stephen Schmidt on Sep 30, 2011 10:18 AM EDT up reply actions
If they could just get him back to his proper position...
He could still be an everyday player. Not with numbers like this year, but I’m willing to assume this was a down year that won’t be repeated.
Screw Buster Olney, his rank speculation and relentless idiotic tweets. He wrote almost the same exact stuff in his insider columns regarding Domonic Brown this year. Heyward is going to be the face of your franchise for years to come. Olney doesn’t even claim to have unnamed sources in the know who confirm the team is actually considering trading him. Instead, he just says fecklessly says there is “some sentiment” out there, which gives him cover. Don’t worry and don’t buy it.
by Boundforbeach on Sep 30, 2011 9:04 AM EDT reply actions 4 recs
Trading Heyward would be an absolute travesty.
Jason has talent for miles. Yes, more talent than Freddie. Yes, much more talent than Scrub Constanza. He should be utterly untouchable, and whoever made these remarks to the press should be out on his ass.
by SS451 on Sep 30, 2011 9:05 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
So did Brad Komminsk.
George Lombard? Wilson Betemit? Not saying Heyward will bust out like that, but let’s not get too crazy pretending it’s impossible.
'There are two pains in life. There is the pain of discipline and the pain of disappointment. If you can handle the pain of discipline, then you'll never have to deal with the pain of disappointment,'- Nick Saban
Get 'em Gondeee
If the Braves brass think for one minute about trading Jason Heyward, then they need to fire themselves
by a hooter's baby on Sep 30, 2011 9:05 AM EDT reply actions
I still haven’t heard a good explanation as to why Heyward wasn’t sent down to the minors to work on his swing/game. I can’t imagine that sitting him on the bench was any less damaging to his ego. Anyone have any insight on this?
by aaaaandTheBravesWin on Sep 30, 2011 9:11 AM EDT reply actions
He wasn't sent down...
…because we were in a pennant race, and you don’t send down one of your best outfielders when you are trying to win games. Yes, it might not have been the best thing for his development (or it might have, I don’t know), but we were also trying to win baseball games.
I can understand your point if his struggles began in mid to late August. But that wasn’t the case. It was all year and the Braves chose to deal with his poor hitting by using Constanza and then later with Diaz. Hell, might as well platoon Can’t standja and Diaz and give Heyward some consistent ABs in the minors.
by aaaaandTheBravesWin on Sep 30, 2011 9:21 AM EDT up reply actions
How about
He was our best in option if RF?
"The Braves could use [Loney] at first base to help back up Freddie Freeman, and in return the Dodgers could get Tommy Hanson from the Braves."
He was riding the pine and platooning at bmost. Doesn’t seem like the Braves thought he was our best option.
by aaaaandTheBravesWin on Sep 30, 2011 9:16 AM EDT up reply actions
See
Disconnect between FO and FG
"The Braves could use [Loney] at first base to help back up Freddie Freeman, and in return the Dodgers could get Tommy Hanson from the Braves."
Front Office
"I’ll tell you one thing: The grass at Tiger Stadium tastes best."
by LesMilesEatsGrass on Sep 30, 2011 9:24 AM EDT up reply actions
I wish the Atlanta beat writers would comment on Olney’s article. They are very quiet on the matter.
Trading Jason right now would be the dumbest thing possible. Make him earn a spot in spring training next season. If he doesn’t make it then send him to AAA where he can work on his hitting with Dismuke and Elia. The idea of platooning him (or benching him) is also very bad. He will never learn to hit left handed pitching if he never faces them. Hopefully he goes to a winter league to work on his hitting this year.
I don't know about anyone else...
but BOURNE has already become my favorite Brave.
The guy is a great fielder, incredible baserunner and very good hitter.
Perfect CF.
I want to keep him for a LONG time.
Chicken pot, chicken pot, chicken pot pie!!
Right there with you.
He reminds me of a smaller Marquis Grissom, with less power, obviously. His jumps on pitchers are incredible. It always seems like he gets a good 5-7 steps before the pitcher released the ball. Incredible. Great guy to hit at the top of the order.
by aaaaandTheBravesWin on Sep 30, 2011 9:30 AM EDT up reply actions
I can’t wait for a whole year of Bourn. Heyward will be fine. He needs some time off, and to get healthy.
by Kulani23 on Sep 30, 2011 11:21 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
The first order of business...
…should be doing something about Derek Lowe. Either trade him and pay a big chunk of that 15 mil he’s owed, or just cut him and eat it. One thing is certain, he CANNOT be in our rotation come April. How that guy is able to sleep at night is beyond me. He’s stealing money.
by joeyn00 on Sep 30, 2011 9:27 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
I could not agree more
Derek Lowe needs to be the first order of business. I understand that you don’t want to pay someone $15 million to do nothing, but we essentially paid Kawakami almost half that this year to do nothing. I don’t see how eating $7.5million of his contract and trading him for next to nothing is any different. This year we essentially paid KK that money so that he didn’t lose games…I think the same should be done with Lowe. Pay him not to lose games. The man lost 17 games this year…you can’t justify paying somebody that much to lose 17 games, including his last 5 in a playoff race. 17 games is damn near a quarter of our teams losses, from one pitcher. He’s not getting any younger, take head FW.
by michaelcooksey on Sep 30, 2011 9:36 AM EDT up reply actions
Phantom Injury Time
have the braves put him on the dl with something like elbow soreness. and keep him on dl the whole year. so insurance covers some of the cost of his contract.
by Delaware Boiler on Sep 30, 2011 9:52 AM EDT up reply actions
Unfortunately just putting him on the DL doesn't trigger the insurance.
I have a feeling State Farm would want their doctors to have a look before writing a $15M check.
by Torgo's Executive Powder on Sep 30, 2011 10:04 AM EDT up reply actions
It's not his fault the Braves offered him the contract
You can’t fault a player for taking the money. Sure, we all wish he was better, but if you want to blame anyone, as has been said before, blame the FO for offering the deal.
by kswissreject on Sep 30, 2011 12:06 PM EDT up reply actions
I would never blame a man for taking a 4 year $60 million contract. I’m not even blaming him for under performing because the FO should have thought about his age when they gave it to him. I’m blaming the FO for not doing something about it. The man lost 17 games on a team that was a contender…that should not happen. The move they need to make now is any move that assures he is not an active member of the roster so this can’t happen again! 17 freaking games, that was 23% of the Braves losses.
by michaelcooksey on Sep 30, 2011 1:26 PM EDT up reply actions
Don't trade him or Prado
Either JHey gets his swing fixed in the off season or he gets it fixed in AAA next year, but we keep him.
I’ve said elsewhere that I’d like to get a LF (probably in trade) and use Prado at 3rd for the 50-60 games that Chipper will miss and super utility the rest of the time.
Owning the Patriots since September 9, 1960
by Darin H on Sep 30, 2011 9:28 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
From DOB about lineup
“The lineup I put out there is guys you feel like are going to grind out some at-bats," Gonzalez
This is why he hates Heyward; he is all or nothing. Just doesn’t try to put it in play with 2-strikes
This is why we all hate Heyward, but how many 22 year olds grind out ABs?
If we can land [Stephen Drew], I will give FW a bj.
~justincredubil02
by king of games on Sep 30, 2011 9:49 AM EDT up reply actions
Freeman, Freddie
It was a particularly small egg...thats why I asked.
by thenightstallion on Sep 30, 2011 3:43 PM EDT up reply actions
He takes a walk
better than anyone on the team not named Chipper of McCann
by a hooter's baby on Sep 30, 2011 9:51 AM EDT up reply actions
this
you wonder some times what goes through his head. Like the comment about Schafer, Sea Bass, etc having “about the same” obp’s.
http://sportsandgrits.com/
by Mr. Sanchez on Sep 30, 2011 10:25 AM EDT up reply actions
Heyward doesn't grind out ABs??
According to baseball reference:
Heyward saw 3.92 p/pa (Tied for 17th in the NL and 42nd in MLB)
McCann saw 3.92 p/pa
Freeman saw 3.89 p/pa
Uggla saw 3.88 p/pa
League average is 3.79
People will come Ray. The one constant through all the years, Ray, has been baseball. America has rolled by like an army of steamrollers. It has been erased like a blackboard, rebuilt and erased again. But baseball has marked the time. This field, this game: it's a part of our past, Ray. It reminds of us of all that once was good and it could be again.
Well, to be fair, that was a Fredi “Schafer-has-the-highest-OBP” Gonzalez quote.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Sep 30, 2011 5:07 PM EDT up reply actions
Lots of things got into J-Hey's head this year...
The injuries. Chipper commenting about the injuries. Getting benched for a AAA player. Chipper commenting about the swing.
He’ll be fine, his eye for balls/strikes is great. He just needs to learn how pitchers are attacking him and how to self-diagnose and adjust. I personally think his swing is too wound-up…he needs to shorten the swing and use his hands instead of relying on his upper body.
by TBuzz on Sep 30, 2011 9:44 AM EDT via mobile reply actions
Bingo
Doesn’t need to swing out of his shoe when he could battle and put the ball in play (when the situation calls for it) It has never worked for anybody in the MLB
And he needs to take about a half step up in the box towards the plate to better cover those outside pitches...
Doing that would help enable him to start using left field more instead of trying to power through and pull everything….the amount of weak grounders he hit through the season were pathetic
'Bama fan since birth, Niners Faithful & Hawks fan since '86, Braves fan since '90
It's the sport of kings, better than diamond rings....football.
Roll Tide Roll!
Go NIners!
by ronniemac03 on Sep 30, 2011 12:29 PM EDT up reply actions
I think a proven hitting coach could do wonders for several guys....
This team’s collective offensive approach at the plate was tragically altered this year, including Heyward, for the worse.
How about give it a try with a proven big league hitting coach and see what happens? My guess is our offensive numbers would increase.
one guy’s opinion
"It looks like The Hound of the Baskervilles out there." - Steve Stone
"...I'm reminded of Wuthering Heights." - Harry Caray
~
Gaby Sanchez - 1, Nyjer Morgan - 0
by Chief Noc-A-Homa on Sep 30, 2011 9:56 AM EDT reply actions
In addition to their hitting philosophy
their pitching philosophy needs a bit of a tune up. Clearly our top 3 relievers peaked in August and were overused/worn out by the end of the year. All of those situations in the first part of the year where he would use O’Ventbrel with a nice lead came back to roost.
by aaaaandTheBravesWin on Sep 30, 2011 10:06 AM EDT up reply actions
Well there’s that, but we did have 2 key starters go down, and we weren’t going deep into games, so at times, we kind of had to use them to get those W’s.
"It looks like The Hound of the Baskervilles out there." - Steve Stone
"...I'm reminded of Wuthering Heights." - Harry Caray
~
Gaby Sanchez - 1, Nyjer Morgan - 0
by Chief Noc-A-Homa on Sep 30, 2011 10:09 AM EDT up reply actions
On the other hand, having Linesuck pitch to Pence with runners on 1st and 3rd (in that kind of game) pretty much sums up Fredi’s “management” of this team. He’s a fool.
It’ll just be one more thing we have to work around, I guess.
"It looks like The Hound of the Baskervilles out there." - Steve Stone
"...I'm reminded of Wuthering Heights." - Harry Caray
~
Gaby Sanchez - 1, Nyjer Morgan - 0
by Chief Noc-A-Homa on Sep 30, 2011 10:12 AM EDT up reply actions
That kind of management, or mismanagement, was a common theme this year. I can’t tell you how many times Fredi chose to pitch to guys where it was clear he should walk or, at the very least, pitch around them.
by aaaaandTheBravesWin on Sep 30, 2011 10:21 AM EDT up reply actions
No need to tell me. I saw every game.
"It looks like The Hound of the Baskervilles out there." - Steve Stone
"...I'm reminded of Wuthering Heights." - Harry Caray
~
Gaby Sanchez - 1, Nyjer Morgan - 0
by Chief Noc-A-Homa on Sep 30, 2011 10:22 AM EDT up reply actions
I think that’s a circumstantial argument, certainly not causal. I think we’re definitely going into next year with a better bullpen simply with Vizzy and Medlen in the fold. This will help tremendously.
by TBuzz on Sep 30, 2011 10:11 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
The subtractions alone of Proctor and Linebrink
make our bullpen much better
Chopmaster: my link is my dad who has watched the braves since I don’t know. he’s 56.
The Subtraction of Lowe....
would help too so the bullpen wasn’t coming in during the 5th inning everytime down 5 runs
Unfortunately,
Knowing this organization, I would bet on Lowe getting his last full year in.
The thinking will be, “It’s too expensive for us to cut loose (coming from a rather lucrative deal to begin with, keeping Lowe away from the Mets of all people), we can’t move him anywhere at this point (if the Red Sox and Yankees won’t bite nobody will), and it can’t get any worse than 2011.”
"It looks like The Hound of the Baskervilles out there." - Steve Stone
"...I'm reminded of Wuthering Heights." - Harry Caray
~
Gaby Sanchez - 1, Nyjer Morgan - 0
by Chief Noc-A-Homa on Sep 30, 2011 10:22 AM EDT up reply actions
oh, but it can get worse. what would his ERA and overall performance be if he began the season the way he ended?
Braves.
Falcons.
Gamecocks.
And to think
Lowe generally gets better near the end of the year because his sinker starts working better. Sad thing was…his sinker actually started sinking less. Whats it going to do in the heat next year? Rise?
Is Linebrink a definite subtraction?
IDK the status of his contract.
/hoping
"You owe it to yourself to be successful. After that you'll owe it to the IRS."
Agreed that we should have a stronger bullpen with those guys.
But Fredi’s default to use O’Ventbrel as much as he did (3 out of the top 6 in games pitched this year) could have been avoided earlier in the season. I don’t know that stats off the top of my head, but those 3 were unnecessarily used in too many games in the first half of the season. I remember the Braves having “solid” leads in the 7th, but Fredi would still roll out those 3 regardless.
by aaaaandTheBravesWin on Sep 30, 2011 10:18 AM EDT up reply actions
IIRC, Linebrink and Sherril had horrendous starts to the year. Then factor in the extra inning games. Then factor in the games in which we led by less than 3 going into the 9th. They severely outnumber the times they were pitched in low leverage situations. Remember that managers sometimes give guys an inning if they haven’t pitched in 3+ days. I think it was a drug that he used too often because it got us through tight games, but definitely something he can improve upon with experience and better tools.
by TBuzz on Sep 30, 2011 10:24 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Well the obvious answer to saving the bullpen
is either A. Have starters who go longer or B. Score more runs so we aren’t in so many close games.
Vizcaino won't be in next year's bullpen
at least not “going into” next year. He goes in to next year in Gwinnett’s rotation, as this year’s bullpen run was a short time thing to limit innings. I’m not saying he doesn’t ultimately end up in the ‘pen, and maybe be the high leverage righty Venters as soon as next August, but to start the year, he will be in Gwinnett’s rotation. Bank that.
http://sportsandgrits.com/
by Mr. Sanchez on Sep 30, 2011 10:27 AM EDT up reply actions
Frontline Starter
No, the Braves should not trade Heyward. Tremendous physical skills, great understanding of the strike zone, and great makeup. That would be idiotic to trade him. In other news, listening to Fredi yesterday and on the radio this morning it really sounds like the Braves are gonna target a frontline starter. His exact words were “someone to help us compete with Philly”. Any ideas? Matt Cain? Felix? James Shields? Very interesting to think about because that means they will almost certainly have to give up one of their young pitchers.
I have the perfect candidate.
His name is David Price. He had a down year, and they have a stud left handed rookie named Matt Moore they are starting over him in the playoffs. The only problem is, we don’t match up trading well with Tampa.
It was a particularly small egg...thats why I asked.
by thenightstallion on Sep 30, 2011 3:46 PM EDT up reply actions
Heyward is still young. His reality in the bigs is that the pitchers have adjusted to him more than he has at the plate.
So far. This can be remedied, but it’s going to take someone’s guidance and time.
Not years, but more time than can be given during the regular season with another game just a day away.
The off season this year should be spent with Jason seeking help with watching film, honing his skills and next year will tell us a lot more. The pitching at this level is no cake walk and reputation and potential hits do not make, you gotta earn ’em.
I think the next few months away from the scrutiny of the press and expectations of the next game will help him.
~ "Curve: The loveliest distance between two points." ~ Mae West ~
In Summation
Heyward is either injured or just needs to make adjustments. He was the top prospect in baseball a few seasons back so you ride that potential until the wheels fall off. Frenchy got 6 seasons I think to suck in right.
Fredi needs to be fire. Point blank period
Wren needed to pay someone to take Lowe all season, didn’t and now has lower value to deal.
Still got five spots for 7 pitchers. I vote for Jurrjens and Minor to be shipped out.
How the hell can we get Reyes?
Finally, seriously Fredi needs to be fire
"So he basically called me a Jew. I was confused because I'm black and Methodist."
by rocket8188 on Sep 30, 2011 10:36 AM EDT via mobile reply actions
Why Minor?
We do need a lefty in the rotation (and another one in the bullpen to deal with the Philly lineup). If anything, I’d trade Jair, Lowe, and either Hanson or Beachy
'Bama fan since birth, Niners Faithful & Hawks fan since '86, Braves fan since '90
It's the sport of kings, better than diamond rings....football.
Roll Tide Roll!
Go NIners!
by ronniemac03 on Sep 30, 2011 12:33 PM EDT up reply actions
The worst news I heard was from Dave O'Brien when he said
the entire coaching stafff is returning next year (including Larry Parrish)
I think that's something they say now...
before Parish decides he wants to pursue “other opportunities” with another organization. That way he doesn’t have to have “fired” on his resume, and we don’t have him here anymore. Like a Nick Saban player choosing “more playing time” to transfer to South Alabama.
http://sportsandgrits.com/
by Mr. Sanchez on Sep 30, 2011 11:08 AM EDT up reply actions
The only thing
That needs to happen with Heyward is he needs to spend his offseason with either Chipper or he needs to call up Jose Bautista and work on getting him closer to the plate and becoming a HUGE threat when hitting. As far as Prado is concerned, why trade him? And I mean that in the sense of “What would we trade him for?” Another OF? A SS? His value isn’t nearly as high as it was this time last year….
This is what's wrong with Fredi in a nutshell.
Gonzalez wasn’t in a mood to answer the question late Wednesday, cutting short a group interview after a string of questions about in-game strategy. Twelve hours later, after a mostly sleepless night, he fielded the question:
Why did hit pitch to Pence with Martinez on deck? Martinez left the bases loaded with an inning-ending foul pop in the ninth and stranded two with a routine fly in the 11th.
"I thought about not doing it," Gonzalez said. "But all of a sudden you’ve got the 1-2 or 2-2 count, whatever it was. And Scotty made a great pitch. … Can you guarantee me Martinez wasn’t going to get a hit, or draw a base on balls?"
" I thought about not doing it…" -————Well, you shouldn’t have Fredi. Getting the count to 1-2 is irrelevant with a mediocre pitcher and a hitter with a high average. The percentages were NOT in our favor, regardless of the type of hit he got.
"Can you guarantee me Martinez wasn’t going to get a hit…?" -————There are no guarantees in sports you idiot, falling back on a rhetorical question that can’t be answered, what a fucking pussy. There are no guarantees, there are probabilities!!! .310 hitter vs. .196 hitter. Repeat after me, .310 hitter vs. .196 hitter.
Probabilities, Fredi. I hear they sell numerous Probabilities and Statistics for Dummies on Amazon…please please buy one and spend the entire offseason reading it.
Braves.
Falcons.
Gamecocks.
kimbrel's wallet
as if it couldn’t get worse for this poor guy.
http://deadspin.com/5845350/hey-craig-kimbrel—dont-worry-the-internet-has-found-your-wallet
Trade Heyward?
If they trade Heyward, it would be THE SINGLE biggest mistake in Braves history. Bigger than Wainwright. That being said…I doubt they trade him, and I hope that Wren has already called Jason to inform him as such. Now I would not be opposed to him spending part of the year in AAA if he needs it. But trade him??? Thats loco!I have seen people mention trading Prado, and I guess if you could get a proven legit power bat (and solid high average) outfielder in either trade or sign to replace him, then fine. But if they do, they better hope that the replacement is awesome, because if he is average and Prado goes somewhere with better coaching and goes back to the Prado of last year, then THAT will be the single biggest mistake.
On a side note…..Boston is viewed as a quality top notch organization that expects to win. It looks like they are letting their two time WS champion manager go. Yet we cant even seem to fire our pathetic hitting coach, because why? Because he is organized and works hard??? What a load of turd! Fredi sure as hell doesnt have an credentials to stand on except a thumbs up from Bobby, a losing record in FLA, and now a historic collapse. But we all want him to be comfy so he gets to keep his job.
Until this organization reaches for perfection, it will have to settle for mediocrity. And sadly I dont see that changing until we get a new owner. What Crap!
Don't trade Heyward, but...
But I don’t want to trade Prado, either. Anytime someone slumps, peoples’ need to feel like there’s a “quick fix” kicks in. Whoever we got for Prado would have some bad patches, and then everyone will want to trade him, too (unless we got some megastar for Prado, which probably won’t happen).
People were singing Prado’s praises earlier this year. He’ll return to being that player, and when that happens we’ll be glad we kept him, and we’ll just focus our “trade him!!!” energies on whichever other player is having a bad month.
"Chipper Jones is better than me." -- David Wright
Heyward needs a full season of play, without injuries before we can really evaluate his talent at this level. It has yet to be seen whether or not he can/will make the necessary adjustments to major league pitching. I dont think this is a good idea at all. I dont think trading Prado would be a good idea either, it seems as if a guy cant have an off season without someone calling for their head though. Remember when Chipper hit .260ish? Yeah, he should have retired then…. not. I can see the logic behind the Parrish head-hunting, I dont get all the fire-Fredi logic though. He had large shoes to fill, and had a pretty good season in his first year. No, we didnt make the playoffs and slumped badly in Sept, but hey, I am sure if you ask every other team (except of course the Phillies) in our division, and they would be happy with the season we had. I dont find myself yelling at Fredi any more or less than I did when Bobby was skipper. They both made decisions I thought were stupid, but thats sports. You would be surprised at how many Tigers fans think Leyland is a complete idiot, yet they had a hell of a year. The Braves on the other hand plateau’d early, the led the division at one point, and slowly gave that away, same with the wild card. With the exception of very early in the season and during Uggla’s hitting streak, this team really didn’t have good offense this year and relied too heavily on pitching. That will only get you so far. Next year will be better, it has to be.
"I Farted" - Me, everday
there is not a single season or day that i am satisfied with merely finishing ahead of the dregs in our division. what kind of consolation prize is that?
Braves.
Falcons.
Gamecocks.
Trading Heyward is a no brainer...
You don’t do it & to do so would be a total knee jerk response. I like the analysis in the post about him never strugging in baseball before now. Struggling at baseball is a new experience for him. This year is a learning curve. He’s young. He’ll come back with a vengence. I also don’t like the idea of trading Prado. The guy had a down year in part (IMO) of being out of his element both in the batting line-up & fielding position. He’s not a #2 hitter. He excelled in the role of super utility guy. A rich man’s Omar Infante as he’s been described.
Prado’s trade value is pretty good (again IMO) and he could possibly help the Braves aquire a needed piece but I think he’d be of more value to the team next year as the utility guy spelling Chipper & Uggla as well as holding down the fort in left field.
"People ask me what I do in winter when there's no baseball. I'll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring." Rogers Hornsby
I’d rather have Chipper spelling Prado at 3rd than the other way around. If Prado is the eventual third baseman, I’d rather he start now. He’s not going to get any better at third by playing left field.
by John Holton on Sep 30, 2011 12:11 PM EDT up reply actions
Thank you, gondee!
This news so upsets me I don’t know where to start.
Coupled with the news that Parrish is secure as hitting coach, this makes me wonder what lunacy has infected the Braves upper management.
And it’s particularly strange that the Olney article, that surely mirrors the thoughts of some genius in the front office, calls Freeman an established regular at 1b, while Heyward is an unproven commodity. While I like Freeman a lot, his rookie year was no more impressive than Jason’s. Who’s to say FF won’t suffer a sophomore slump of his own?
Finally, Heyward’s BA and run production could be the result of a sophomore slump, but his sudden inability to draw walks is caused, I fear, by Parrish’s aggressive approach to hitting. The problem this year has not been Jason Heyward.
Heyward still drew walks, as evidenced by the fact that his OBP was nearly 100 points higher than his AVG.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Sep 30, 2011 3:26 PM EDT up reply actions
Heyward
The Braves will be crazy to let Heyward go after one bad year but he showed signs late of getting out of his slump. What Heyward needs to do is to get the hitch out of swing because he can’t hit anything inside and swings underneath at fastballs up. Anything down breaking ball or fastball he handles well. My Braves to do list is…
1. New staff besides Eddie Perez and McDowell
2. Trade Lowe for anything, since we well just have to deal with the last year of his horrible contract.
3. Get a new SS and LF (Include Jurrjens for either one)
4. Demote Prado back to super utility role and never bat him 2nd behind Bourn because that part in the order doesn’t fit him. When you think he should thrive in that position.
Tomahawk Chop The Competition
He batted leadoff alot too in that time. Also, Bourn was the first true leadoff hitter the Braves had. Prado never looked comfortable hitting behind somebody that can take off at any count. He seemed to loose his aggressiveness and just didn’t look too good at the plate.
Tomahawk Chop The Competition
This is why I stopped reading Buster Olney a long time ago.
The man makes shit up. When’s the last time that anything he had the scoop on actually came true?
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Sep 30, 2011 3:24 PM EDT reply actions
If Frank Wren trades Heyward then it automatically erases every good trade he’s done because that would be the worst decision ever IMO
by drumzalicious on Sep 30, 2011 3:30 PM EDT via mobile reply actions 1 recs
IDK…the Yunel trade almost does that too.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Sep 30, 2011 5:09 PM EDT up reply actions
Don't trade Heyward.
But I recall similar things being said about Francoeur when he first began to struggle. The talk about it being the first time he ever struggled at baseball sounds so familiar.
You shouldn’t sip liquor.
-justincredubil02
no, Jack Daniel is whiskey.
-ChopMaster
"Welcome to the show, Brandon Beachy. I think you’re going to stay a while."
But Francoeur and Heyward have two completely different approaches to hitting.
Francoeur never saw a pitch he didn’t think he could hit. Heyward has never seen an inside strike that he didn’t think he could pull.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Sep 30, 2011 5:10 PM EDT up reply actions
If we trade Jason Heyward, I will no joke mail Frank Wren a box of my feces every week for a year.
It was a particularly small egg...thats why I asked.
by thenightstallion on Sep 30, 2011 3:52 PM EDT reply actions
with your incriminating DNA in it?
You shouldn’t sip liquor.
-justincredubil02
no, Jack Daniel is whiskey.
-ChopMaster
"Welcome to the show, Brandon Beachy. I think you’re going to stay a while."
I highly doubt the Braves or the Atlanta PD
have a sample of every fan’s DNA for comparison.
"Jason Heyward was a Greek philosopher reincarnated as a baseball player." - Don Sutton
This is the same bullshit that flew around after Justin Upton’s first couple of years… Remeber last year there were questions abotu whether he would ever develop and in case you weren’t paying attention he is aan MVP candidate (and the guy who would get my vote)
Its just bullshit floating around because Heyward didn’t cure cancer in his second year.
"No. Lonely people mixing with one another? Breeding? Creating an even lonelier generation? You're not even allowing natural selection do its work. Pssh. You're like the guy who invented the seat belt."
Dwight Schrute
Look at you using 4-letter words!
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Sep 30, 2011 8:47 PM EDT up reply actions
I was gonna say...
sounds a lot like the pre-2011 Justin Upton trade talk: “CAPITALIZE ON HIS VALUE NOW! IT’S ONLY GOING DOWN FROM HERE!!!”
Goldschmidt happens.
Here is a little something off of MLBTraderumor.com that'll make us all feel a little better...
•Braves GM Frank Wren told Dave O’Brien of The Atlanta Journal-Constitution that Derek Lowe is not projected to have a spot in the rotation next year (Twitter link). The bullpen or a trade are options. Lowe is owed $15MM next year, the final one on his contract.
•Wren also said that Jason Heyward is not guaranteed to start in right field next year, but the GM told MLB.com’s Mark Bowman that the Braves have never talked about trading the 22-year-old (Twitter link).
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