Go Easy On Your Team, Braves Fans
by Jacob Peterson on Sep 29, 2011 2:07 PM EDT
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I know we're all in shock right now. Full of anger, pain, and frustration. Above all, the frustration. It's hard to know what to do with all of it. We all want something (or someone) to let loose on. Ultimately, what you do with that anger and frustration is up to you, but I would like to encourage each of you to try to be understanding when you criticize the Braves' players, coaches, and front office.
In particular, I want to address the slur that always gets tossed around in times like this: "choker." It's only natural for sports fans to think of this when a team fails in a high-pressure situation, but the implication that a player or team lacked the mental fortitude (or "heart") to cope with the pressure is always unfair. The "choker" label is an oversimplification. It's lazy armchair psychiatry that ascribes psychological blame for what is fundamentally a physical failure.
All the Braves' players are professional athletes at the highest level of their sport. You simply do not get to that level without being able to handle high-pressure situations. Yes, there are some who handle pressure better than others, and yes, there are no doubt occasions when players succumb to the pressure. But we cannot know how much the high stakes affect any individual player, or even if the player is affected adversely. We're not in their heads. How can anyone know what the ultimate cause of another person's failure is?
Our collective thirst for explanations does not want to accept this uncertainty, of course. As a result, we construct stories that explain the unexplainable. This is particularly prevalent in the sports media, which compels writers and talking heads to construct narratives to draw in the reader/viewer. Many people will accept these narratives as truth, particularly fans of other teams. They're not the truth, though, and even if they were, we couldn't know that.
As Braves fans, I hope we can all recognize that the "choking" narrative doesn't tell the whole story. I hope that we can cut the team some slack. They failed, yes--and there's plenty of blame to go around for that--but there's no reason to make the failure out to be more than it is. Believe me, everyone associated with the Braves is having a hard enough time with this situation. They don't need undeserved scorn from their own fans on top of everything else.
Let's take as an example Craig Kimbrel's rough outing last night. The narrative here is that he's a young, rookie closer who couldn't deal with the pressure of having the season on his shoulders. A choker, to put it bluntly. Like so many media narratives, however, this just doesn't hold up to close scrutiny.
Kimbrel was wild last night, obviously, but is that so surprising? He's always been susceptible to a loss of command; just look at his minor league numbers. Add to that the fact that it was the end of the season, one that saw him appear in nearly half of the Braves' games. Whether you think Kimbrel was overworked or not, he was certainly fatigued last night, and it likely had a detrimental effect on his command.
It's a long season, and I'm sure every Braves player (except Kris Medlen, I guess) was less fresh last night than he was at the start of the year. Now, fatigue isn't a good excuse. Every team plays the same 162 games, and so if the Braves were more fatigued than, say, the Cardinals, that reflects poorly on management, the trainers, and the players themselves. But it's fundamentally a physical failure, and an easily explicable one. There's no need to resort to murky (and likely incorrect) mental explanations.
The same goes for the related issue of injuries, both incapacitating (Jair Jurrjens, Tommy Hanson, Peter Moylan, Alex Gonzalez, etc.) and nagging (Chipper Jones, Brian McCann, Jason Heyward, and probably just about everyone else). Again, injuries make a poor excuse--the Cardinals certainly had their share, particularly the loss of Adam Wainwright--but they make a really good explanation. Blame the staff for not keeping the players healthy or the players for being injury-prone if you want. I don't think we know enough about that to properly judge, but at least we can see the injuries and some of their effects. Compared to judging a person's mental state, judging his conditioning is downright justifiable.
Ultimately, though, I think the biggest culprit behind the Braves' collapse is simply poor timing. Injuries, slumps, and bad outings just piled up at the exact wrong time. Move those injuries and poor performances to a different time of year, and the results would still be the same, but the narrative would be much kinder to the Braves.
It's all too easy to blame Fredi Gonzalez and his coaches for letting things get out of hand, but I doubt that they coached any differently in September than they did in the first 5 months. I am far from a Fredi apologist--quite the opposite--but I don't blame him for September when he was doing the same things in May through August. I think Fredi did a worse job than quite a few other managers, but blaming him for the collapse itself is ludicrous.
I thought this Braves team, as constructed by Frank Wren and his front office, was better than 89 wins. I'm sure everyone involved with the team would agree that they should have won a few more games. But the blame for this is not a simple matter. When a team falls just short of a playoff berth, everyone shares the blame. It's the converse of last year, when everyone who contributed to the team deserved credit for the Braves' playoff berth. This year, everyone deserves part of the blame.
A number of players had down years, and even the ones who met or exceeded expectations had long slumps and bad games that cost the team potential victories. That wasn't just at the end of the year, either. A couple more victories early in the season and the September collapse wouldn't have mattered.
I hope you don't focus just on yesterday's game, or the past few weeks. Apportion blame as you see fit, but try to focus on the whole season. Other teams' fans will reduce the Braves' season to a choke-job, but we didn't just tune in for the last game; we know that it's not that simple. Knowing the team as we do, we can have more sympathy for their situation. We know that the blame lies not in the players' hearts but in their arms and legs.
The players and coaches all have their strengths and weaknesses, and while those weaknesses have been exposed particularly harshly in the past few weeks, nothing has really changed. I hope we can all judge them fairly, based on their whole body of work rather than on a miserable few weeks. The future is still bright for this team. It'd be a damn shame to get so caught up in the "choking" narrative that we are unable to appreciate that bright future.
As a postscript, I want to say that I've been thinking about these matters for quite a while now; it's just that they're unfortunately quite apropos at the moment. Two of the themes of this post are the unreliability of small sample sizes and the myth of the clutch or unclutch player. Both are principles that I have believed in for years. I would have written something similar (though probably much shorter and without the use of "we") if the Red Sox had been the only team to collapse, as everything I wrote above applies equally to them.
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This is the time
that we need to be rallying behind our team. That’s what the true fans will do.
true fans can also discuss the failings and speculate on what should be done to correct these things. Trying to suggest true fans can’t be critical is ludicrous.
by ATLtruth on Sep 29, 2011 2:20 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Hit post too soon… I have seen chokes. This was just a stretch of bad luck. I don’t think the Braves lacked heart, and I think they played the best they could overall. I do not blame Kimbrel. That was a high-pressure situation and he is a rookie. Fortune put him in that position. Had the team as a whole done better, he would not have found himself trying to preserve a one run lead over the best team in baseball to keep his team’s season alive for one more game. We had the two best starters on the team go down, which put pressure on an offense that started straining under wear and tear and then taxed our bullpen to its limit. These things happen. Lord knows, I have had my share of disappointment at the end of the year with this team when my expectations were high, but this is not one of them. This is not 1992, 1996 or 1997. This is more like 1999, when the Braves made it through a grueling NLCS to face the Yankees buzz-saw. Last night, like 12 years ago, I had hope they could do it, but realized it was unlikely they would. The upside is that this team has a wealth of young talent.
You don't blame Kimbrel
for this one? What about the St. Louis and Florida games?
'There are two pains in life. There is the pain of discipline and the pain of disappointment. If you can handle the pain of discipline, then you'll never have to deal with the pain of disappointment,'- Nick Saban
He’s a rookie. He’s saved more games in a season than any rookie before him. Looking at the whole season, I give him a pass. Also, I don’t really blame him for Florida.
I know he's a rookie
but he still has to do his job. He definitely had a great year, but one inning. All we need him to do is pitch one inning. Ugh.
'There are two pains in life. There is the pain of discipline and the pain of disappointment. If you can handle the pain of discipline, then you'll never have to deal with the pain of disappointment,'- Nick Saban
If it was that easy to pitch “just one inning”, top-shelf closers would not be the rarity they currently are.
Why would the ninth be different than any other?
'There are two pains in life. There is the pain of discipline and the pain of disappointment. If you can handle the pain of discipline, then you'll never have to deal with the pain of disappointment,'- Nick Saban
Why not?
No such thing as clutch, right? A pitcher should be able to perform in that inning just as he would in any other.
'There are two pains in life. There is the pain of discipline and the pain of disappointment. If you can handle the pain of discipline, then you'll never have to deal with the pain of disappointment,'- Nick Saban
Yeah, okay, you run with that. Pitching the ninth in a save situation is the same as pitching any other inning. Be my guest.
I'm just saying
people say clutch doesn’t exist. This sounds contrary to that argument.
'There are two pains in life. There is the pain of discipline and the pain of disappointment. If you can handle the pain of discipline, then you'll never have to deal with the pain of disappointment,'- Nick Saban
When a closer with the second most blown saves in the NL, as many as other team’s entire pitching staffs, pitching for a team with the third most blown saves in all of baseball blows any particular save, can you really blame him? It is what it is.
most of kimbrel's saves were with a 1 run lead
how many times did he blow a 2 or 3 run lead? not often. he was dominant, and dont let the blown saves make you think otherwise
These things happen… but it was a choke. There’s nothing you can do about injuries, but this team’s inability to driving in RISP for a month wasn’t just bad luck. The team pressed too hard and tightened up.
Twitter:ChopAttack
Chokes happen when you have it in your sights and it comes unraveled just at the end. This problem had been brewing for over a month. This was a long slow slide. You can’t tell me you were surprised the season ended last night. Disappointed? Sure, we all are, but this was not a surprising development.
Maybe the 2011 narrative should read...
that after the ups, downs, injuries, winning streaks, and yes…September slump. After all that, maybe we were just an 89-win team who’s timing of when it lost (and let’s face it, the Cards’ timing of when they won) is what’s going to be covered because it’s the rotten, most visible layer of the onion.
by TBuzz on Sep 29, 2011 2:19 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
This is the most reasonable take...
…and I say again that this team finishing worse than last year’s team after adding Uggla and Bourn is a major disappointment. Yeah, there were injuries- had those last year too. Still, this team should have been a good five wins better than the 2010 version. Certainly can’t blame it on any particular players, but Heyward, Prado, and Lowe all gave us much less than we expected. Did any hitter besides Freeman actually exceed preseason expectations?
'There are two pains in life. There is the pain of discipline and the pain of disappointment. If you can handle the pain of discipline, then you'll never have to deal with the pain of disappointment,'- Nick Saban
Constanza? :)
Seriously, although hitting stats were down everywhere, going from a collective .740 OPS in 2010 to .695 OPS in 2011 is a bit upsetting. I think the patience philosophy will return in 2012, and having Bourn for a full year will surely help. Chipper needs to yield that #3 spot and hit in the 2-hole like his skills dictate.
by TBuzz on Sep 29, 2011 2:33 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Not disputing your points that Heyward, Prado and Lowe were less than expected but if you take a look at Lowe’s stats across the board, his 2011 and 2009 seasons are pretty darn close to each other. I know SOME (not you though) of the fans like to act like he was some kind of Hall of Famer who just fell off a cliff this year, but really he pitched ever so slightly better in most categories in 2011 than in 2009. He just looks worse because he won most of his starts in 2009 and he lost a boatload of them this year, but he’s basically the same guy he’s always been. He had 4 fewer earned runs in 7 extra innings in 2009. You can explain that by luck. I can’t find any run support numbers for him but I suspect that in 2009 he got a lot more run support than he did in 2011. Lowe was paid in a gamble that his best years weren’t behind him and Wren lost that gamble.
For me the poor offense was always the current running under the surface. In June, July, and August people (myself included) warned that running the bullpen out there night after night would have dire consequences. It wasn’t the manager’s fault. The team wasn’t producing runs. You have to win games.
I feel bad for Kimbrel. Putting a rookie in that situation is terrible. Hopefully he’s able to bounce back.
Twitter:ChopAttack
I agree with you in principle, but I have to point out that they didn’t go easy on us.
Sgt.: Pointed stick? Oh, oh, oh. We want to learn how to defend ourselves against pointed sticks, do we? Getting all high and mighty, eh? Fresh fruit not good enough for you eh? Well I'll tell you something my lad. When you're walking home tonight and some great homicidal maniac comes after you with a bunch of loganberries, don't come crying to me! Now, the passion fruit.
On target
I for one agree with your posting. But it’s gonna take a while for everyone, fans, team, and front office to get past this. I hope there is no lasting damage to the psyche of the players and they all bounce back.
They didn't choke they collapsed
you can’t choke for a month. they collapsed due to injuries and guys being over-extended.
There is no such thing a clutch. You either hit the ball or you don’t.
If anyone knocks baseball I get upset, because I think it's a wonderful life.
Clutch, to me,
just means that a guy is able to maintain his approach regardless of circumstances. I don’t really think there are “clutch” players per se, but I absolutely believe that there are guys who change what they do and crap the bed under pressure.
'There are two pains in life. There is the pain of discipline and the pain of disappointment. If you can handle the pain of discipline, then you'll never have to deal with the pain of disappointment,'- Nick Saban
We were young in key spots, injuries hit at the wrong time to the wrong people
The experience gained for our young bullpen will help them going forward, provided we don’t overuse them again like we did this year. Heyward needs to round into form and get back his mojo from last year (and move up on the plate some…i promise you he’d probably hit .300 easy it he was a half step closer), Freddie should continue to improve anlong with the young arms(Minor, Beachy, Delgado & Viscaino). We filled one hole in center with Bourn (who we should resign to reasonable dollars if possible), but now we have two more, LF and SS. We can get by with Gonzalez for another year, but we need to fill the LF hole this offseason…preferably someone who can hit in the 2 hole, which would also take pressure off of Heyward as he gets his confidence and swing back and Freeman as he continues to develop so we don’t have to rely on Heap so much as he catches and hits…our best hitter shouldn’t be our catcher, IMO. We may have one more year with Chipper, so any moves made should be with an eye towards knowing he needs to be replaced in ’13.
Our Braves fought hard, but ran out of gas at the end. It’s not the season we had hoped for, but it wasn’t a losing season…it just feels like one today.
'Bama fan since birth, Niners Faithful & Hawks fan since '86, Braves fan since '90
It's the sport of kings, better than diamond rings....football.
Roll Tide Roll!
Go NIners!
I can’t stand when people throw around phrases like “choke,” “lack of heart,” or “they don’t even care.” They’re all just excuses for bad results. Besides, being even keeled is the best way to approach baseball. Trying too hard will make things much worse. The Braves didn’t have enough talent to overcome key injuries, and some of Wren’s bad decisions came back to haunt them.
I blame all the people who voted 100% in the playoff polls.
My middle name is Luck, so suck on this, Luck suckers.
by Tarkus on Sep 29, 2011 2:41 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
They'll get the chance to prove themselves next year
The AJC is reporting that Fredi said the entire coaching staff will be back next year
Lead off walks usually lead to runs, unless they don't. -Joe Simpson
If you don't like the way the Atlanta Braves are playing, then you don't like baseball. -Chuck Tanner
Eventually, someone will whisper in his ear that that just might not be his call to make. ;-)
~ "Curve: The loveliest distance between two points." ~ Mae West ~
From Frank Wren:
“This [coaching staff] had us in position to have the best record in baseball through the first five months of the season. We had a lot of things that went right. We also had a lot of things that didn’t go right in September. From our standpoint, there is plenty of blame to go around for what happened. We’re going to meet internally and talk about everything that possibly could contribute to what happened. We’re going to work to fix it. We feel like the guys we have on this coaching staff are capable of fixing it.”
by Aaron Meier on Sep 29, 2011 10:52 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Sad, unfortunate, but expected.
Maddon had a quote last night that struck me:
“It’s all on the guys, it’s all on the coaches. If you’re with us on a daily basis, the work routine, the camaraderie, the coaches’ preparation is outstanding. That’s how we’re able to overcome a nine-game deficit going into September.”
All season, all the little gripes about bunting, IBBs, lineups, optimal bullpen usage, using Lugo and not Ross off the bench – the rejoinder was always that these little things don’t matter, and in any case, what’s 1 win going to matter over the course of 162 games? The Rays organization gets it and I wonder if the Braves do or ever will. Maddon spends his day looking at hitter spray charts and setting up shifts for individual hitters for every opponent. Fredi and his staff can’t even tell you who leads the team in OBP. They are managing like it is 1962 and the world is passing them by.
by pbrfan on Sep 29, 2011 2:58 PM EDT up reply actions 6 recs
I agree 100% with this statement, I don’t understand how we can have a coach who seemingly knows nothing of advanced stats, when the whole of baseball is run off of them now. Broadcasters for sure and most fans seem to know more about players then Fredi does.
by SuperHeyward on Sep 29, 2011 3:04 PM EDT up reply actions
It might have also had something to do with Boston imploding at every turn as well.
Problem is that for 4 months we really didn’t have anybody perform in those prime 1-2 leadoff positions. Once we got Bourn he played him exclusively at leadoff after trying McLouth, Prado, and Schafer there. People put so much damn stock for the way he answers a damn question…the guy isn’t an intellectual…and seems particularly (and obviously annoyingly) hellbent on keeping as much as he can close to the vest. Including criticizing his players, or answering a question about OBP at the risk of disparaging a player.
Yet they won two more games than Atlanta.
'There are two pains in life. There is the pain of discipline and the pain of disappointment. If you can handle the pain of discipline, then you'll never have to deal with the pain of disappointment,'- Nick Saban
Comparing records in two different leagues with unbalanced schedules isn’t terrible useful, if not downright misleading. In SRS the Rays are much better than ATL. They did it in the toughest division in baseball in quite some time. Even Toronto had a better SRS than Atlanta, i.e., would be favored in a seven game series, albeit only slightly. Rays would be strong favorites over the Braves in a playoff.
Wonder how that number looked going into August?
'There are two pains in life. There is the pain of discipline and the pain of disappointment. If you can handle the pain of discipline, then you'll never have to deal with the pain of disappointment,'- Nick Saban
SRS was pretty steady for everyone after half of the season. Rays have been steady at 0.7 for most of the year. Braves were at 0.6 at one point but after the break it dropped to around 0.3 and finished at 0.1. The Braves finished 4 games above their pythagorean, so really they were lucky to even have the shot that they did.
This. 100%.
This is precisely it, isn’t it? Fredi is a manager for an age that passed 20-30 years ago. Other organizations get it. Why can’t we?
(e.g. Why does Carlos Ruiz have modest stats against everyone else but he kills us nearly every game? Because every OTHER organization has discovered that he can’t hit off-speed pitches but that he kills fastballs. They pay attention to his scouting reports. Yet we continue to throw him a steady diet of fastballs because we refuse to pay attention to opponents stats.) The organization still does not realize that Uggla hits righties better than lefties.
Our management fall on its face because, it does not pay attention to the details. This is painfully obvious in Fredi’s post game comments. Until this organization catches up mentally, we will continue to get beat. And I just don’t see that happening with the current staff.
All while Fredi is surrounded by a bunch of orangutans, trying to teach them how to bunt the rocks and coconuts that angry 300 lb gorillas are throwing at them,
by royhobbs on Jul 29, 2011 11:20 AM PDT
Strong Side / Weak Side: Chipper Jones
http://www.onionsportsnetwork.com/articles/chipper-jones,8431/
by Santaklose11 on Sep 29, 2011 5:52 PM EDT up reply actions
you can draft good like we do and develop promising players like Julio Teheran, Heyward and others, but if you don’t have a hitting coach to help Heyward, then he may not realize his full potential. Most people don’t think a hitting coach is very important, I think one is extremely important, but not wanting to get into an argument about it. Like you said, until we find management that lives in THIS time, and pays attention to things, we will be lucky to win a championship.
braves#1
Absolutely no argument with you here. I completely agree.
L.P.’s “aggressiveness” and swing early in the count mentality will cause our offense to continuously underachieve….which will in turn fatigue the pitching staff. L.P. absolutely needs to go. I thought Pendleton was bad, but L.P. is way worse. I will take Pendleton over L.P. any day.
All while Fredi is surrounded by a bunch of orangutans, trying to teach them how to bunt the rocks and coconuts that angry 300 lb gorillas are throwing at them,
by royhobbs on Jul 29, 2011 11:20 AM PDT
Strong Side / Weak Side: Chipper Jones
http://www.onionsportsnetwork.com/articles/chipper-jones,8431/
by Santaklose11 on Sep 29, 2011 6:12 PM EDT up reply actions
Good reminder :-)
Shameless self-promotion:
I posted this early this morning, focusing on The Good Stuff – there really is a lot of it.
~ "Curve: The loveliest distance between two points." ~ Mae West ~
physical endurance
I guess looking at it rationally I was guessing this team would be good for 90-94 wins so statistically speaking I guess they were not far off from my expectations.
Speaking of physical abilities and falling short, I have been wondering if there is a major difference between the conditioning that our pitchers go through and pitchers on other teams. I know it sounds simplistic but could a little more cardio give them the endurance to make it another inning or two? An extra well pitched inning or two by starters throughout the season might have helped down the stretch.
Not a frequent poster
but hear me out. Slumps obviously happen, and this one came at a terrible time. This year’s team was a great one to root for, and there shouldn’t be anyone suggesting they didn’t play their hardest (not best, but hardest). There’s a larger picture to consider, and that’s the philosophy of the manager.
The bullpen overuse is a huge problem, and it showed on Venters and Kimbrel this month. Hanson and Jurrjens injuries notwithstanding, those guys weren’t hurt in May/June/July. The constant line-up changes were enough to make you dizzy, and it’s inexcusable to have played Constanza over Heyward for so long.
This team won 89 games and nearly the WC despite the manager trying to do what over managers do: “outsmart the other dugout” and “shake things up from time to time.” Somebody needs to shake his ass up because he was the biggest problem on this year’s team.
Ok I get this for sure
But even Kimbrel admitted he choked last night, he let the situation get to him and got wild because of it. Chipper commented that he should have said something to calm him down. So you can’t just deny that it doesn’t happen.
Season’s over, I’ve accepted it, and it’s a team failure nothing else. But this team AS ALWAYS is built for the long term, let’s just hope that works out.
I will always be a Braves fan, they are my home team and I could never cheer for another any more than I do for my locals. But, this was ridiculous. As true fans, we deserve the right to NOT go easy on the team. They F’N sucked, plain and simple. We had a freakin 96% chance of making the playoffs a few weeks ago.
I wouldn’t hide it to anyone, but I’m legitimately embarrassed to live in Braves Country right now. It will be a long offseason, but I’ll be back ST 2012 saying, this is the year.
Daffy Duck goes to bed at 10:00 every night, except on New Year's Eve, he goes to bed at 8:30.
I mostly agree with this sentiment.
Analogy: like kids who bust a hole in the wall. You love them, but damnit they piss you off sometimes. This is one of those times, and as fans who have invested money and time into the team I do think we have a right to not go easy on them, especially since they’re professionals. The key is not to let the bitterness linger or to overreact by saying “gut the team.”
by soup du jour on Sep 29, 2011 3:13 PM EDT up reply actions
I wore my Braves Jersey out last night as a badge of honor (and an excuse for my incredible drunkenness)
Sgt.: Pointed stick? Oh, oh, oh. We want to learn how to defend ourselves against pointed sticks, do we? Getting all high and mighty, eh? Fresh fruit not good enough for you eh? Well I'll tell you something my lad. When you're walking home tonight and some great homicidal maniac comes after you with a bunch of loganberries, don't come crying to me! Now, the passion fruit.
epic choke
This was an epic choke by all 25 players. I’ve never seen an entire team fail at the same time like this. The worst part was that I don’t think they cared. I saw players laughing in the dugout and after last night, fredi was smiling during the interview and doing that weird blinking non-stop thing he does. The coaches have to go. They have no leadership qualities and in fredis case, no baseball knowledge whatsoever. This team failed miserably and to be honest, several non-tenders, releases, and pink slips should be handed out.
by NickSC11 on Sep 29, 2011 3:07 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
Jacob
Thanks for the rational writing. It was all the things you said, but it was also an EPIC choke. They choked the shit out of it.
The brain tells the body what to do. The brain dictates muscle responses, hand eye coordination, and the approach at the plate in men on base situations. Muscles don’t have a brain of their own, so the “physical failure” argument doesn’t hold water for me. You can tell they were pressing down the stretch, trying to hit the biggest bombs, failing to move runners over, failing to get runners in. These are mental farts.
You say Fredi G was doing nothing different in September then he was in the early part of the year. If that is true, that is a choke on his part. He was overwhelmed by the situation in that case. It is my opinion that he showed panic and fear on his face, while constantly resorting to statements like “we like where we are”. The Braves showed fire and passion, urgency, for the first 7 innings of the last game. Great, where was that the entire month. That is a coaching choke. Once things unraveled a little bit in the 9th (and it was still only a tie game), the demeanor changed, the body language was terrible, there were so many defeated, long faces in the dugout, they had already lost in a tie game at home. They choked. And this was typical for the team almost the entire month of September, but most notably the last 2 weeks.
Let’s not forget that the brain tells the body how to function. These are largely the same guys that knew how to get on base and drive runners in from 3rd, move runners over last season. Somehow, their muscles did not fail them with a lesser team. This year, they could not do the same things with greater muscles (see uggla)…it can only described as a MASSIVE EPIC FAIL CHOKEJOB.
Braves.
Falcons.
Gamecocks.
Muscle memory is critical in baseball, and physical fatigue often begets psychological fatigue. They are all interconnected. Bottom line is that this team was broken in September, plain and simple.
Sgt.: Pointed stick? Oh, oh, oh. We want to learn how to defend ourselves against pointed sticks, do we? Getting all high and mighty, eh? Fresh fruit not good enough for you eh? Well I'll tell you something my lad. When you're walking home tonight and some great homicidal maniac comes after you with a bunch of loganberries, don't come crying to me! Now, the passion fruit.
Good article & rec.
I really feel for the team today. I’m sure they feel like crap. Constructive criticism is one thing but a barrage of insulting, demeaning, & hurtful comments is another. I think any true baseball fan knows the difference & where to draw the line. I think any mature human being knows the difference.
As a fan of the Braves this day I choose to take the high road & offer my support to a hurting team. I’m sure some will suggest they’re a bunch of millionaires that don’t give a damn but by the look of their stunned faces in the dugout, I’d say that’s debatable. By no means do I suggest putting on blinders. Issues will have to be addressed to insure this type of meltdown doesn’t happen in the future. But there is ample time for that. Today, lets just let some healing begin.
"People ask me what I do in winter when there's no baseball. I'll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring." Rogers Hornsby
A strength turned into a weakness, that is how seasons are lost.
Sgt.: Pointed stick? Oh, oh, oh. We want to learn how to defend ourselves against pointed sticks, do we? Getting all high and mighty, eh? Fresh fruit not good enough for you eh? Well I'll tell you something my lad. When you're walking home tonight and some great homicidal maniac comes after you with a bunch of loganberries, don't come crying to me! Now, the passion fruit.
too apologist for my taste
there are some stark realities that you don’t seem to want to acknowledge. the most obvious is that kimbrel did not respond well to the big situation he found himself in. if he gets the c word thrown at him for that, then so be it.
I agree with you there. I really don’t see how one can be apologetic towards the Braves’ September performance. I mean, 3 horrible three game sweeps in September?
I want next year to be here quickly but I don’t want a repeat of this year. How does an entire team fall into a slump? SMH
by Philly Bravo on Sep 29, 2011 4:27 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Good read, but...
I tend to disagree with some of you assertions. This collapse was most certainly mental. The entire line-up does not just go into a month long slump all at once. The combination of slumps to some key guys and a season long lack of proper preparation and poor scheming, lead the whole team to get into a major team wide mental slump. They had NO confidence. They did not think they could win. Even Chipper said that in the last couple weeks especially they were playing to not lose. September was most certainly mostly mental. And the inability to get the team on the winning path again goes to the coaches. Yes they had some rough injuries and bad luck, but what team doesn’t.
I read a comment up there somewhere that talked about the Rays coaches and how they prepared. And though I do not believe that a team should be run and coached by statistics and a computer, this coaches utter lack of using statistics is a big reason why this team under performed offensively all year. The offense under performing all year was inexcusable.
In my book Fredi gets another year, but we have got to release Parrish and bring in a hitting coach and potentially an assistant coach that can work more from a statistical stand point and get this team performing as it should offensively.
Gonna be a long off-season.
Sgt.: Pointed stick? Oh, oh, oh. We want to learn how to defend ourselves against pointed sticks, do we? Getting all high and mighty, eh? Fresh fruit not good enough for you eh? Well I'll tell you something my lad. When you're walking home tonight and some great homicidal maniac comes after you with a bunch of loganberries, don't come crying to me! Now, the passion fruit.
Those organizational prospect rankings couldn’t come soon enough…
by TBuzz on Sep 29, 2011 4:30 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Already thinking about next year.
Freeman a year wiser. Chipper not having to rehab a major injury. Heyward(I pray), playing up to his potential. Uggla not taking half the year off. Our young arms seeing more action. Healthy Medlen. Strong bull pen. Etc. Etc. Our bright future takes some of the sting out of this horrible month.
Man I hope chipper retires
He will screw the braves by coming back next season. I won’t be easy on the braves, I’ve been giving them my hard earned money for years so I have the right to be mad if I want to.
I dont mind him coming back.
Id like to see us find his replacement. A guy who could serve as a utility guy when Chipper is healthy. And cover third when he’s not. Don’t know if there is a guy out there who fits the bill.
Same here on him coming back.
.275 / .344 / .470 / .814. 18 HR’s. 33 doubles. 70 RBI’s. Respectable/average numbers considering the time he lost to injury & his age. In the year where the offense clearly struggled Chipper was a positive contribution.
"People ask me what I do in winter when there's no baseball. I'll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring." Rogers Hornsby
Oy
Still in shock over this September slump. Was definitely angry last night, but considering the way this month has gone, not really surprised. Trying to be rational about the slow implosion of this team. A few thoughts though:
-Derek Lowe? Initial thought: never want to see him in a Braves’ uni ever again. 5.05 ERA on the season. BUT a 3.70 FIP and 3.65 xFIP. Considering Braves’ pitching wealth, would rather see anybody else pitch but him.
-Offense? With a few exceptions, definitely felt like this team underperformed for the season. Might be this horrible month clouding my memory though. A full year of Michael Bourn will be nice. Will be watching to see what’s done with SS. And here’s to Heyward, Prado, Chipper, and McCann getting healthy…
Morton hit Heyward with an offspeed pitch. Early indication is that the baseball survived the impact.
Part of me wants to give the Braves a hug, and the other, bigger, part of me wants to hit them on the nose with a rolled up newspaper.
Sgt.: Pointed stick? Oh, oh, oh. We want to learn how to defend ourselves against pointed sticks, do we? Getting all high and mighty, eh? Fresh fruit not good enough for you eh? Well I'll tell you something my lad. When you're walking home tonight and some great homicidal maniac comes after you with a bunch of loganberries, don't come crying to me! Now, the passion fruit.
And I can't get with the whole 'Misery Loves Company' thing
Watching Jim Rome (don’t ask why) and halfway through the show they haven’t even MENTIONED the braves yet. All Red Sox/Yanks/Rays—and now they are about to talk college football. This whole choke job sucks, but not even being relevant makes it a lot worse IMO. Oh, and by the way.. Scott Proctor? It was you? Really? There were at least 4-5 games that he single-handedly lost for us, and now he still has a role in how these playoffs turn out. Everything sucks right now
Just made it through the whole show.
Apparently we don’t exist
who cares what Rome thinks, but I'll bite....why should we exist?
Atlanta (and I don’t want to hear the profuse amount of excuses) does not sell out important games, does not sell out the playoffs, and hasn’t made it out of the first round in 9 years (0-5). Yes, fan support matters to these media types, as their shows are geared towards fans.
Too many seasons of futility in the postseason out of so many chances will numb anyone out there. I’m numb from it myself.
Yankees and Boston are what they are, and Rays did something spectacular so they deserve to be talked about. We will be talked about if the culture in Atlanta changes and/or we start doing some incredible things on the field, as in consistently making strong pushes to the World Series again. This is a tall order, but imo that’s what it will take to put us on the baseball “map” again.
However, it is still Jim fucking Rome we’re talking about, the biggest douche on radio/tv/whatever.
Braves.
Falcons.
Gamecocks.
From Fredi:
“I think if you hire people, let them do their job,” Gonzalez said. " If they’re organized, detailed and they work… it’s easy to fire somebody and just kind of throw somebody to the wolves. That’s not the way I work. You want coaches to be able to come in here and work in a good environment and not be worried looking over their shoulders about that kind of stuff. I’m sure LP will sit back and evaluate some things and maybe do some things different, like we all will."
by Aaron Meier on Sep 29, 2011 5:07 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
does fredi just believe that LP will wake up one day and start being a great hitting coach?
this guy has no track record at all. he took a solid lineup with the highest NL OBP in 2010, replaced Melky and Glaus with uggla, bourn, and freeman, and totally screwed the entire offensive approach of this team, and of course fredi is going to keep him around
Parrish was Wren's choice, not Fredi's.
by Aaron Meier on Sep 29, 2011 6:22 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
If I recall, Parrish didn’t even hit well as a a player.
~ "Curve: The loveliest distance between two points." ~ Mae West ~
I would research that before you say it. He was a career .757 OPS, more of a slugger than a table-setter (big surprise right). He mentored a lot of the current young crop of hitters in Detroit (Boesch, etc.) but has flopped big time in year 1…
by TBuzz on Sep 29, 2011 10:46 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Yep, that’s why I used the word IF.
I confess to never looking up anything but his career avg. back when he was first announced as our hitting coach and wishing it were better.
Thanks for the info.
By the way, .263 BA and .318 OBP
~ "Curve: The loveliest distance between two points." ~ Mae West ~
The best players are rarely great coaches.
'There are two pains in life. There is the pain of discipline and the pain of disappointment. If you can handle the pain of discipline, then you'll never have to deal with the pain of disappointment,'- Nick Saban
Greetings long lost Braves Fans... I have a confession to make.
The collapse is totally and completely MY FAULT. Blame no one but me. Due to my moving situation, I was forced off of Talking Chop and I missed the game I promised abraves257 and you all I would make. Since my absence from TC, the Braves began their horrendous slide and it was because of my lack of support that they did not make it to the playoffs. There is no other reason than their number 1 fan and the President of Talking Chop going on hiatus. That was the cause of the collapse. Not Fredi, not Chipper, not D-Lowe or anyone else… Kimbrel tried to impress me last night while I got to watch my first Braves game in forever and he felt too much pressure with my sudden emergence. He let me know and the team stopped hitting the ball once I started watching (4th inning). Blame me Braves fans as it is easier than blaming the team… If there are pitchforks and torches on my lawn tonight, I will understand and come willingly.
I hereby, profusely and completely apologize for the collapse of our great organization and I take full responsibility and pledge my full support starting spring training this year. I will not let you guys down again and even though the baseball season is over (I don’t count this years playoffs… unless the Rays win of course… as part of the season) I am ready for next year and will have my season tix in hand ASAP! :-)
Sincerely,
Krash
Don’t worry about older women until you turn 22. It’s called the Saltalamacchia.
by bwellnjonesco on May 19, 2011 4:13 PM PDT
You know that this means – you are required to deliver a 2012 WS ring now. ;-)
~ "Curve: The loveliest distance between two points." ~ Mae West ~
I think something can be arranged.
Don’t worry about older women until you turn 22. It’s called the Saltalamacchia.
by bwellnjonesco on May 19, 2011 4:13 PM PDT
by Klemson Krash on Sep 30, 2011 9:08 AM EDT up reply actions
I am glad you agree. :-)
Don’t worry about older women until you turn 22. It’s called the Saltalamacchia.
by bwellnjonesco on May 19, 2011 4:13 PM PDT
by Klemson Krash on Sep 30, 2011 9:07 AM EDT up reply actions
Fire Fredi Now !
According to the AJC, Fredi Gonzalez has announced that the entire coaching staff will be returning in 2012? Oh, really? What makes Gonzalez so sure that he’ll be returning himself?
Paying off the contract of a manager who has proven himself inadequate is easier than banishing Kenshin Kawakami to Mississippi. If Fredi is satisfied with the job his batting coach did in 2011, then the time to question Fredi’s status is right now. He was unreluctant to pull Derek Lowe from the rotation for Julio Teheran; unwilling to bench Martin Prado and Matt Diaz for the energy and hot hitting of Jose Constanza; and now he’s blind to the incompetence of the worst batting coach in baseball. If Fredi can’t make the tough decisions, the time has come to make a tough decision about him.
Braves fans need to know that the Collapse of 2011 is being taken seriously by upper management. Otherwise advance ticket sales for 2012 will fall off a cliff, and out of town Braves fans like myself will drop MLB Extra Innings from our satellite and cable packages.
Why waste another season subsidizing the likes of Larry Parrish, Derek Lowe, Martin Prado, and Fredi Gonzalez?
Unhinge much?
I see great things in baseball. It's our game - the American game. It will take our people out-of-doors, fill them with oxygen, give them a larger physical stoicism. Tend to relieve us from being a nervous, dyspeptic set. Repair these losses, and be a blessing to us. ~Walt Whitman
Again,
Parish was Wren’s choice, not Fredi’s.
by Aaron Meier on Sep 29, 2011 6:23 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
so fuckin sad
SOOOOOOOOO SAD
T.T
until next year.
Baseball Prospectus’ take
Signs of hope: Top pitching prospects Julio Teheran, Randall Delgado and Arodys Vizcaino made their first appearances in a rotation that also featured four other successful 25-and-under arms in Jair Jurrjens, Brandon Beachy, Tommy Hanson and Mike Minor, giving Atlanta a surfeit of starters for next season behind Tim Hudson and Derek Lowe, both of whom are signed for 2012. Youth also made an impact in the back of the best bullpen in baseball, where Craig Kimbrel, Jonny Venters and Eric O’Flaherty combined for a 1.64 ERA in 236 1/3 innings. In other words, the Braves’ pitching staff appears to be in very good shape for years to come.
Braves.
Falcons.
Gamecocks.
Signs of disaster: Atlanta’s lineup was never a powerhouse, but the Braves completely fell apart at the plate in the midst of losing 20 of their last 30 games, averaging 3.1 runs in support of their arms. Jason Heyward managed only a .253 TAv in what was a disappointing season for the defending rookie of the year runner-up. Given Heyward’s prospect pedigree and successful rookie season, his sophomore slump has all the makings of a “sign to ignore,” but the outfielder’s offensive struggles were accompanied (and perhaps precipitated) by a stint on the disabled list, which is starting to resemble a pattern. Heyward’s fragility could keep him from making the most of his physical gifts, which would force the Braves to continue to search for outfield offense that looks even less likely to succeed in light of Martin Prado’s metamorphosis from a second baseman who hit like a left fielder to a left fielder who hit like a second baseman.
Braves.
Falcons.
Gamecocks.
Signs you can ignore: Not many memorable major leaguers make their debuts at 27 years old, but after getting the call a month before his 28th birthday, Jose Constanza hit .375 AVG/.423 OBP/.500 SLG in his first 20 games with as many homers as he had hit in his four most recent minor league seasons combined (two), prompting Fredi Gonzalez to briefly bench Heyward in Constanza’s favor. Over his next 20 games, Constanza went 6-for-36 without a walk or an extra-base hit, which was more the slap-hitting outfielder’s speed. Jurrjens became just the 10th pitcher since 1993 to throw at least 150 innings with a sub-3.00 ERA and a strikeout rate below 5.5 per nine innings, which suggests that he’ll have trouble repeating the feat. — Ben Lindbergh, Baseball Prospectus
Braves.
Falcons.
Gamecocks.
Bowden’s bold move
The Braves head into the offseason with disappointment and optimism at the same time. If Jurrjens and Hanson can get healthy in the offseason, the pitching staff should be in good hands next year with the addition of some of the young arms.
What the Braves need is a jolt on offense, and shortstop is a good place to start. Alex Gonzalez posted a .270 OBP this year, and the Braves need an upgrade. The Braves hold a team option on him that they should decline, then they should make a push to sign either Jose Reyes or Jimmy Rollins. Reyes should obviously be their top target because he would completely change the top of their lineup. With Reyes and Michael Bourn at the top followed by a healthy Chipper Jones, Brian McCann, Dan Uggla, Freddie Freeman and Heyward, the Braves could have a devastating run-producing lineup in 2012. However, it’s likely Reyes will be out of their price range, so Rollins is probably a more realistic option.
Additionally, manager Fredi Gonzalez will have to let the starters go deeper in 2012 and reduce the appearances of all of his good, young bullpen arms so they don’t get hurt. The Braves underachieved in 2012 because of injuries, inexperience and youth, but they’ll be a team to be reckoned with next year. An athletic shortstop such as Reyes or Rollins would put them over the top. — Jim Bowden
Braves.
Falcons.
Gamecocks.
Hopes and fears
Best-case scenario ZiPS projection: 93-69
The Braves would reach this figure with the same basic method that enabled them to go 89-73 this year: solid pitching rotation with lots of depth and upside and a killer bullpen that sends opposing fans home in the seventh and an ordinary lineup. When everybody’s healthy, the Braves’ rotation is one of the best in baseball. To compete with the Phillies mano-a-mano, the Braves have to make up the difference on offense, which they can’t do without getting anything from short and most of the outfield. The good news on that front is that the smart money is on Heyward, 22, having a healthier and overall better 2012. Getting a real left fielder instead of miscasting Martin Prado as a corner outfield, someone such as Josh Willingham, could also help out.
Worst-case scenario: 78-84
The Braves have a deep pitching staff that can survive a few injuries, but the same can’t be said with the offense. The team got a sigh of relief during the season after Jones announced his return, but as solid as he was this year, he turns 40 a couple of weeks into next season, and it’s risky for the Braves to rely so much on their future Hall of Famer’s twilight years. If the team doesn’t get better, more consistent performances next year from Heyward and Uggla, they may have to do the unthinkable and trade some of their pitching surplus to bring in a bat. Otherwise, the Braves risk a repeat performance of September 2011, with the offense scoring two runs or less in 10 games for the month.— Dan Szymborski, Baseball Think Factory
Braves.
Falcons.
Gamecocks.
Organizational future
A combination of injuries and desperation caused the Braves to bring up nearly all of their top prospects in 2011. Now the question is which of them will play a role in 2012 with most of this season’s team returning. The only glaring hole will be a shortstop, and while he was called up for the final game of the year (not that he’ll want to remember), there are questions about Tyler Pastornicky’s readiness come Opening Day 2012. Look for the team to sign a placeholder, even maybe Alex Gonzalez again for one year, but Pastornicky is the future as a solid defensive player who makes up for a lack of power with walks and stolen bases. More pressing decisions will need to be made with the pitching staff as the rotation has reached logjam status, with Teheran, Minor and Delgado clearly ready with no clear jobs available. It’s a nice problem to have, and this kind of pitching depth could end up being used this offseason to address more pressing needs in the everyday lineup.— Kevin Goldstein, Baseball Prospectus
Braves.
Falcons.
Gamecocks.
Interesting
Would Jimmy Rollins risk getting trashed by Philly fans by signing with Atlanta. I think he’s more like to stay in Philly or sign with San Francisco, even though Philly hates SF almost as much as they hate Atl
by a hooter's baby on Sep 29, 2011 6:20 PM EDT up reply actions
In the words of the great Leeroy Jenkins
At least I have chicken.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Sep 29, 2011 6:37 PM EDT reply actions
Not much else I can add to this.
My buddy and I just decided that the braves would be set if we could get Matt Kemp, Jose Reyes, and Albert Pujols.
by willlinn on May 17, 2011 2:13 PM EDT
I still want to read your overview.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Sep 29, 2011 7:54 PM EDT up reply actions
Can we please
get a post about the bright future of the Braves??? I know there are a lot to look forward to. I just want to read about something more happy and promising. This is depressing.
I'm worried about every level of management right now
As much talent as they have in house, if your managing sucks, and your GM doesn’t understand what needs to be done, you can ruin things.
Still trying to get over the quick declaration that we’re bringing back the whole coaching staff.
My buddy and I just decided that the braves would be set if we could get Matt Kemp, Jose Reyes, and Albert Pujols.
by willlinn on May 17, 2011 2:13 PM EDT
Wren
Look at the September call-ups. No new bullpen arms to speak of when guys were gassed and there are players in the organization as capable as Linebrink or better, and he pitches the final outs of the season. And if a few rookies eat up some more innings in September, who knows how Kimbrel and Venters finish.
No one called up that could play SS in a pinch. This made no sense at all. When Gonzalez went down, that meant that Wilson could never be pulled for a PH. He had several high-leverage PAs that predictably went badly (he is what he is on offense). The Braves lost all of those games.
Those moves cost virtually nothing, but would have provided insurance. That insurance was ultimately needed.
Freddy Gonzalez has to go
That was the worst managed game I have ever watched in my lifetime last night against the Phillies. First off Freddy Gonzalex pulled Constanza from the lineup the night he twisted his ankle a bit. Constanza was back pinchrunning the next night but was never put back into the starting lineup. During his time starting the Braves were the best team in the National league as his speed alongside of Bournes allowed the Braves to manufacture that run or two a game that had been gettting them beat. The Braves defense was as good with Constanza so you cannot give me that excuse. Freddy did not want to upset a 21 year old who is getting spoon fed name Jason Heyward. The message from the Braves to Heyward when he is not running out balls and swinging for a homerun on every pitch? We will not pull you Jason because we want to keep you happy even if it cost us a playoff spot and maybe a run at a World Series. Freddy G. had Bourne on first with one out and Prado batting in extra innings and he had Prado take 5 pitches and put himself into a 2 strike hole waiting for Bourne to steal, problem was that Freddy was not giving him the green light as evident by his 2 step lead. The inning ended with the National League steals leader standing on first base for 18 pitches and never once getting the ok to steal? Was this not the reason why the Braves acquired him at the trade deadline? When you have a speed demon on second it changes the way the pitcher approaches the batter and usually ends up in deeper counts which ends up in the batter getting to sit on a good pitch. Instead they were able to get Chipper to go fishing for strike 3 by throwing the 4 off spead pitch of the at bat to him on a full count. Dont forget that the phils had removed their starting catcher and had a right handed triple a pitcher in the game who had a slow move.
Two innings later Chase Utley who could have been taking it easy was stealing second base of the worst throwing catcher in baseball(Brian Mccan) and all I could wonder is what would have been the final score if our manager had been aggresive and I am still waiting for someone to ask Freddy G(who was seen signaling every pitch call to Mccan in the 9th) why he forced Kimbral to throw 60 percent curveballs to the light hitting part of the lineup which led to the Braves facing Utley and Hunter Pence with the bases loaded. The ump was calling a tight zone and Freddy made Kimbral throw 4 sliders to every batter he faced and he was having to try and get a fastball over with a 3 ball count which is a recipe for dissaster. Had Freddy let Kimbral throw nothing but fastballs and one token slider to each batter then there is no way the Phils load the bases to begin with. Kimbral allows very few hits per inning pitched and averages about 2 k’s per 3 batters faced. Worst pitch calling I have ever witnessed and was taking the scared approach instead of showing faith in Kimbrals stuff his manager was sending his rookie the sub conscious message that his fastball was not good enough to them out. Last of all I do not think a single manager in baseball would have put the game in Linnebrinks hands after seeing him get lit up and blow at least 8 games in a row when he was put in to hold a lead or blow the lead when the game was tied. How about pulling the National league saves leader because you had him throwing his second best pitch Sixty percent of the time during the inning and replacing him with a guy who has not picthed in almost 2 years and had only thrown bullpen. I started watching the Braves in 69 and I have attended many games and watched 44 games a year during the 70’s and then more in the 80’s and now watch over 140 games a year. The Braves will not be shown on in my household ever again unless they cam Fredde G. I hope that someone above Freddy can see his major short comings and have the backbone to do what needs to be done. Pendleton was not my choice but now I am wishing he would have gotten the job because I think he would have a better manager. Question….does anyone other than me see the rift in the Braves locker room? So obvious that Heyward is the type who walks around with ear phones and does not
If you think the Braves’ success was due to Constanza and not the ridiculously hot Freeman, Uggla and Chipper, you are fooling yourself.
Constanza, since 15 Aug, had an OPS in the .500s
Heyward, on the other hand, was over .700.
The real travesty is Martin Prado and his sub-700 OPS and his .309 OBP hitting 2nd.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Sep 29, 2011 7:56 PM EDT up reply actions
100% Correct
Word to Kelly Johnson
[only built for cuban linx]
by Mighty Healthy on Sep 29, 2011 8:11 PM EDT up reply actions
Players feed off of other players and you see it all the time. Constanza brought energy to the team and you are goofy if you think different. Other teams were constantly committing errors when Bourne and Constanza were both in the lineup. Speed does not slump but Uggle,Feeman and Chipper do. Not to mention if I see a guy hustle every play or work the count and take what is given to him and after the game the press is surrounding him and talking about these things then I feel a pressure to start playing baseball the same way instead of going through the motions or taking my at bats with my contract in mind instead of the team. Justincredubi you have no idea what drives a good team. It is hustle,giving up your at bat to move a runner along,working the count so that the pitcher is forced to throw you a good pitch,bunting, and last but not least team chemistry which the Braves have none of. I watch for all of it. Heyward and Chipper sat in the same dugout this year for six months and I never one time seen Heyward approach Chipper to talk baseball. Prado is so full of himself that it is obvious that most of the team cannot stand his ego maniac approach filled with the gyrations and the ridiculous amount of cocky little movements he brings to the plate when batting. He ended Freemans long hitting streak by swinging at a 3-0 pitch with Freeman on Deck and he left did the same thing when Uggla’s long hitting streak ended. He is a glory hound and has become obsessed with lifting the ball and over swinging. Nothing physical was wrong with Mccan the last month but he was dropping his back shoulder and stepping in the bucket on every pitch and over swinging. Where is the coaching to correct these correctable things? Uggla I understand early in the season because he was with a new team and trying to hard to prove worthy of a new big contract. Other than Chipper,Bourne and Freeman(who did have a legit injury slow him down the last month and a half) no Brave goes up to bat willing to walk. The whole roster is filled with over aggressive swingers and the scouting in MLB is great, you see over and over when a pitcher throws a pitch off spread and the Braves hitters are trying to hit it out are guessing. They are over swinging more as a team than any team I have ever watched. That kind of at bats produce few hits and few rallies, You are just watching the box score apparantly JUstlBill and have no idea why they get beat by any pitcher you throw out there and tank the final 30 days. There is a laundry list of stuff like this that has become the culture in Altanta. During the 15 years they made the playoffs the front office would turnover a large portion of the roster every year but the players respected Cox and they were always the type of player who would be willing to play team baseball and do all the little things. This roster needs a shakeup starting with the core. More guys like Constanza and Bourne
by Brickstone33 on Sep 29, 2011 9:29 PM EDT up reply actions
I think he's a great answer
for fourth OF/pinch runner/spark off the bench.
'There are two pains in life. There is the pain of discipline and the pain of disappointment. If you can handle the pain of discipline, then you'll never have to deal with the pain of disappointment,'- Nick Saban
I stopped reading after the 2nd line
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Sep 30, 2011 12:33 AM EDT up reply actions
Saying things like “Prado is full of himself” should get you perma-banned for baseball ignorance.
Prado is probably the most team-oriented and least personal-gain-seeking player on the team, if not in baseball as a whole.
by Ivan the Great on Sep 30, 2011 10:17 AM EDT up reply actions
Does not what?
I’m on edge here! Tell me!
by a hooter's baby on Sep 29, 2011 8:10 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Rec’d
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Sep 29, 2011 8:15 PM EDT up reply actions
I gotta be honest
I didn’t read past the 3rd or 4th line of his rant.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Sep 29, 2011 8:15 PM EDT up reply actions
I took one for the team
Summary:
Freddy sucks
Freddy G sucks
Fredde G sucks
Constanza is the straw that stirs the drink
Freddy told Kimbral to throw 4 straight sliders
Heyward is a lazy bum
………and my brain hurts now excuse my while I treat my aneurysm
by a hooter's baby on Sep 29, 2011 8:46 PM EDT up reply actions
I gotta be honest
I didn’t read past the 3rd or 4th line of his rant.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Sep 29, 2011 8:16 PM EDT up reply actions
Did you guys notice how dead the dugout was?
The utter lack of hunger and aggression and enthusiasm is repulsive. That’s a cultural thing, Braves apathetic culture that needs to change.
[only built for cuban linx]
The team last year had so much fire even after Chipper and Prado went down
This year’s team always looked like they were at a funeral
by AmgineRmEht on Sep 30, 2011 12:54 AM EDT up reply actions
I cannot believe that idiot Fredi is still going to be wearing a Braves uniform, it makes me wonder who he’s fucking.
Sgt.: Pointed stick? Oh, oh, oh. We want to learn how to defend ourselves against pointed sticks, do we? Getting all high and mighty, eh? Fresh fruit not good enough for you eh? Well I'll tell you something my lad. When you're walking home tonight and some great homicidal maniac comes after you with a bunch of loganberries, don't come crying to me! Now, the passion fruit.
FW’s wife….. oh wait that would get him fired
by PhuckthePhillies on Sep 29, 2011 9:29 PM EDT up reply actions
he's getting the reacharound by LP...no other explanation for retaining him.
Braves.
Falcons.
Gamecocks.
wha wha weeee! choked before playoffs this time...
http://espn.go.com/mlb/story/_/id/7036470/latest-collapse-atlanta-braves-came-playoffs-time
Braves.
Falcons.
Gamecocks.
i saw this, i really question the point of this article.
it seems like theyre just throwing it in our faces. it’s like winning the division 14 times in a row is used as an insult. they’re basically saying it would have been the same if we had won 1 division and won a ring. fuck espn
I don't necessarily think Braves should go after Reyes or Rollins...
but getting a marquee, exciting player(s)would go a long ways to restoring the excitement in the fanbase and generating hope for next season. I mean, somebody really dynamic. I don’t know how yet exactly, i’m sure that picture will become clearer this offseason.
Something must be done in this regard, if they are not going to get rid of any coaches…can’t expect fans to come out and get behind the 2012 team with the same ol’ same ol’.
Braves.
Falcons.
Gamecocks.
Jose Reyes...
…in a Braves uni…how nice would that look?
Already imagining it, but we’d need Ted Turner back…
I agree with the concept that you can’t really blame Fredi for what happened this month, he had a team full of shot players, nobody could have really managed better. But the problem is, not only did his managing cause us to lose several games earlier in the season that had we won, this wouldn’t be an issue, but his mismanagement caused many of the problems we faced this month. Think of the appearances Venters made with 4 plus run leads and then think of how long it took him to realize that he had to better manage Venters’ innings.
Anyone else feel like it's jack wilson's fault?
poor guy has a curse, and he brought it over to us. Never been to the playoffs
Looks like someone got to Parrish's Wikipedia page
In his first year as hitting coach, he took a team who led the league in OBP in 2010 to 5th worst in baseball
by a hooter's baby on Sep 29, 2011 11:11 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Wish I knew who that was.
He or she deserves an extended round of applause.
by Sam Jethroe on Sep 29, 2011 11:29 PM EDT up reply actions
I know this is completely revisionist, but I can’t help thinking that if we hire Don Baylor instead that this season is much different..
Sgt.: Pointed stick? Oh, oh, oh. We want to learn how to defend ourselves against pointed sticks, do we? Getting all high and mighty, eh? Fresh fruit not good enough for you eh? Well I'll tell you something my lad. When you're walking home tonight and some great homicidal maniac comes after you with a bunch of loganberries, don't come crying to me! Now, the passion fruit.
Maybe but to be slightly fair to Parrish who never had any big league hitting coach experience before, I think Fredi was just as instrumental is setting up the environment for the over aggressive approach at the plate.
Yea, they are definitely the most overarching variable that afflicted this 2011 Braves.
Sgt.: Pointed stick? Oh, oh, oh. We want to learn how to defend ourselves against pointed sticks, do we? Getting all high and mighty, eh? Fresh fruit not good enough for you eh? Well I'll tell you something my lad. When you're walking home tonight and some great homicidal maniac comes after you with a bunch of loganberries, don't come crying to me! Now, the passion fruit.
Terry Francona just got axed by the Red Sox
The Red Sox are meeting with Terry Francona tomorrow and are expected to inform him that they will not be picking up his 2012 or 2013 options. The Red Sox will have a new manager in 2012.
GO GET HIM, FRANK WREN!!!
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Sep 30, 2011 12:35 AM EDT up reply actions
I wish we could have him
but he’s destined to go to Chicago
by a hooter's baby on Sep 30, 2011 12:38 AM EDT up reply actions
Wait, you are allowed to do that? Frank Wren should have known that that “Managing Manager’s for Dummies” book was a Fredi fraud when he saw it was written in Crayon. But in Frank’s defense, it’s not like he’s had to deal with a lot of turn over at the Manager’s spot. I still don’t see why you let Fredi spout off about “keeping all the coaches” the same, Frank should punish that immediately. I mean if the guy is making decisions about management now (and this kinda hurts the people who see Parrish’s failure separate from Fredi’s) then we are fucked.
Sgt.: Pointed stick? Oh, oh, oh. We want to learn how to defend ourselves against pointed sticks, do we? Getting all high and mighty, eh? Fresh fruit not good enough for you eh? Well I'll tell you something my lad. When you're walking home tonight and some great homicidal maniac comes after you with a bunch of loganberries, don't come crying to me! Now, the passion fruit.
by GumpBrave on Sep 30, 2011 12:44 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
On possibly the worst day to be a Braves fan in years nonetheless. Why say that when he did. Who gives a fuck about the mental well-being (presumed security) of our coaching staff, because as someone whose security (trust in the team) has recently been flushed down the toilet, maybe I’m a bit sore, but they there is absolutely no reason to rub their unfathomable job security in our face, it just adds insult to injury.
Sgt.: Pointed stick? Oh, oh, oh. We want to learn how to defend ourselves against pointed sticks, do we? Getting all high and mighty, eh? Fresh fruit not good enough for you eh? Well I'll tell you something my lad. When you're walking home tonight and some great homicidal maniac comes after you with a bunch of loganberries, don't come crying to me! Now, the passion fruit.
Don’t know why that nonetheless is sitting there, I think I just wanted to use it, and it came off as incorrect and contrived as anyone could hope for (taking notes fredi, or just gonna give me a big ole cap tip?)
Sgt.: Pointed stick? Oh, oh, oh. We want to learn how to defend ourselves against pointed sticks, do we? Getting all high and mighty, eh? Fresh fruit not good enough for you eh? Well I'll tell you something my lad. When you're walking home tonight and some great homicidal maniac comes after you with a bunch of loganberries, don't come crying to me! Now, the passion fruit.
use of nonetheless fail.
Braves.
Falcons.
Gamecocks.
Francona got it better than his predecessor.
Grady got axed for leaving Pedro Martinez in too long, thus blowing gave 7 of the ‘03 ALCS. At least Francona’s being judged based on a month.
by Tomahawk45 on Sep 30, 2011 1:39 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
The A-Braves should play winter ball this year.
Sgt.: Pointed stick? Oh, oh, oh. We want to learn how to defend ourselves against pointed sticks, do we? Getting all high and mighty, eh? Fresh fruit not good enough for you eh? Well I'll tell you something my lad. When you're walking home tonight and some great homicidal maniac comes after you with a bunch of loganberries, don't come crying to me! Now, the passion fruit.
Guaranteed Contracts for 2012 ($62.125 million)
Derek Lowe $15 million
Chipper Jones $13 million
Dan Uggla $13 million
Tim Hudson $9 million
Brian McCann $8.5 million
Matt Diaz $2 million
David Ross $1.625 million
Aribitration Eligible for 2012 ($14.0745 million in 2011):
Michael Bourn $4.4 million in 2011
Jair Jurrjens $3.25 million in 2011
Martin Prado $3.1 million in 2011
Peter Moylan $2 million in 2011
Eric O’Flaherty $895K in 2011
Kris Medlen $429,5K in 2011
Potential Free Agents for 2012:
Nate McLouth ($10.65 million club option/$1.25 million buyout)
Eric Hinske ($1.5 million club option/$100K buyout)
Scott Linebrink
Alex Gonzalez
George Sherrill
Eric Hinske accrued a .7 WAR this year. Guess how? 0.0 oWar, .7 dWar, which can must come almost entirely from that one incredible catch. With that said, I think he is coming back.
Sgt.: Pointed stick? Oh, oh, oh. We want to learn how to defend ourselves against pointed sticks, do we? Getting all high and mighty, eh? Fresh fruit not good enough for you eh? Well I'll tell you something my lad. When you're walking home tonight and some great homicidal maniac comes after you with a bunch of loganberries, don't come crying to me! Now, the passion fruit.
Gonzalez wasn’t in a mood to answer the question late Wednesday, cutting short a group interview after a string of questions about in-game strategy. Twelve hours later, after a mostly sleepless night, he fielded the question:
Why did hit pitch to Pence with Martinez on deck? Martinez left the bases loaded with an inning-ending foul pop in the ninth and stranded two with a routine fly in the 11th.
"I thought about not doing it," Gonzalez said. "But all of a sudden you’ve got the 1-2 or 2-2 count, whatever it was. And Scotty made a great pitch. … Can you guarantee me Martinez wasn’t going to get a hit, or draw a base on balls?"
Braves.
Falcons.
Gamecocks.
THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT'S WRONG WITH FREDI.
" I thought about not doing it…" -————Well, you shouldn’t have Fredi. Getting the count to 1-2 is irrelevant with a mediocre pitcher and a hitter with a high average. The percentages were NOT in our favor, regardless of the type of hit he got.
“Can you guarantee me Martinez wasn’t going to get a hit…?” -————There are no guarantees in sports you idiot, falling back on a rhetorical question that can’t be answered, what a fucking pussy. There are no guarantees, there are probabilities!!! .310 hitter vs. .196 hitter. Repeat after me, .310 hitter vs. .196 hitter.
Probabilities, Fredi. I hear they sell numerous Probabilities and Statistics for Dummies on Amazon…please please buy one and spend the entire offseason reading it.
Braves.
Falcons.
Gamecocks.
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