Braves Trade Needs Hinge On Chipper's Health
by gondeee on Jul 8, 2011 10:35 AM EDT
in Braves Trade News
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It was the big blow to the 2010 campaign for the Atlanta Braves: Chipper Jones going down with a season ending injury. The Braves were able to eventually fill in the gap left by Jones with Derrek Lee and Rick Ankiel, but those were not nearly the impact bats the team needed.
Ken Rosenthal says that the Braves 2011 campaign could be equally derailed by an injury of extended time to Chipper:
Jones' knee is "getting more bothersome," failing to respond to a second round of cortisone the way it did to the first, according to a source with knowledge of his condition.
The loss of Jones, 39, would require the Braves to move Prado to third, creating an opening in left; an outfield of Nate McLouth, Jordan Schaefer and Jason Heyward would be too limited offensively.
This is one reason the trade talk has heated up lately with rumors of left fielders like Carlos Quentin. Rosenthal mentions three other candidates: the Padres' Ryan Ludwick, Athletics' Josh Willingham or Twins' Michael Cuddyer.
Of that group, Cuddyer and Ludwick interest me the most. Cuddyer has always been a seemingly underrated player who puts up decent, though not spectacular, numbers each year. Ludwick has been on the Braves radar before, during the 09-10 off-season.
All three players are in their year-32 season. Willingham and Ludwick are having similar seasons with .714 and .717 OPS numbers respectively. Quentin and Cuddyer are also having similar seasons with .859 and .844 OPS numbers respectively; only one regular on the current Braves roster has a higher OPS.
Rosenthal also mentions that whomever the Braves target they will likely have to receive significant funds in return, as they did last year with their deadline deals, since Atlanta is up against its payroll limit. This would require giving up a higher level prospect or prospects. I must say this rubs me the wrong way. Here we are again seeing where the Braves lack of payroll flexibility and lack of an owner willing to chip in the extra funds to help push a team over the edge are costing the Braves more talent than they should be giving up.
We can only hope that (a) Chipper remains healthy and does not miss a significant (if any) amount of time, and (b) if a trade is deemed necessary by the Atlanta brass, their assertion that certain core young players are untouchable remains true. I do want this team to win this year, but I don't want them to sacrifice their future ability to stay competitive just to get an extra bat that is simply a three month rental.
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Agreed
We’ve built up such a ridiculous stock of good prospects, I would hate to trade them for a mediocre LF out of desperation.
especially when we dont even need them through the end of the season
Chipper should come back from surgery!
Of those options..
I choose none. None offer an upgrade defensively, and they don’t offer that much of an increase in offensive production to warrant giving up anyone other than Derek Lowe or C-level prospects. We’re better off with Mclouth (can’t believe i said that). Just add a better reserve IF (infante), and stick it out with our great pitching and timely clutch hitting.
by murph35 on Jul 8, 2011 10:43 AM EDT via mobile reply actions
This...
None of the players listed above excite me. I’d rather stick with Nate and Jordan.
"Insert witty and/or funny quote here" ~ The Person Who Spoketh Said Quote.
not even Quentin?
Ray Guilfoyle
www.faketeams.com
www.minorleagueball.com
www.mlbdailydish.com
by Ray Guilfoyle on Jul 8, 2011 11:22 AM EDT up reply actions
Outfield defense is overrated
Hudson & Lowe both have 1.00+ gb/fb ratios. Jurrjens & Hanson are just below 1.00, and Beachy is the worst on the team with a .47 gb/fb ratio. As a team, we’re actually right at .99. Well over half of the outs we get are on the ground with Strikeouts and infield flies taken into consideration. With only 16% of the balls hit being line drives, an outfielders defensive range statistics only cover about 30% of the total outs in a game. Out of that, left field may only get 20-30% of that number. So when you talk about a poor defender in left field, you’re talking about someone who is only going to effect maybe 8-10% of the total plays in a game. It’s pretty ignorant to complain that someone is bad defensively when we really need to add offense to this team.
On a side note, Venters has a RIDICULOUS 3.03 gb/fb rate. I knew he was good, but that’s just insane.
If the Braves get one of those options...
it would be a huge mistake. Willingham and Ludwick can’t hit and Quentin and Cuddyer can’t field.
If Chipper needs a knee surgery, wouldn’t he be back within a month anyway? That’s not enough time to justify making a trade for a mediocre left fielder who won’t help us.
If the Braves truly want to upgrade, CF is the only place to do it, and Michael Bourn is pretty much the only option that makes perfect sense. Cheap, great defense and speed, and solid on-base skills.
The third-base umpire ran into the outfield and retrieved the biggest chunk. "It's a f***in' potato."
by alligatorimpersonator on Jul 8, 2011 10:51 AM EDT reply actions
"Speed...
Demon speed is what we need."
by CowboyCurtis on Jul 8, 2011 10:59 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Agreed, Michael Bourn would be the best fit at this time for the Braves if we are forced into a trade. I think we could bench Schafer and still let Mclouth play LF and use Schafer as a 4th outfielder/pinch runner.
by RichmondBravesFan on Jul 8, 2011 11:00 AM EDT up reply actions
why not move Schafer to Left
Schafer is not ready to bat off the bench I don’t think, He doesn’t have the at bats..
With Schafer in Left, Bourn in Center, and Heyward in right.. There will be no tripples, doubles will drop, and BABIP in our outfield will go through the ground.
I don’t think Schafer is disciplined enough for LF. He is a good fielder and flies around, but you can see he lacks communicating with the other outfielders as he flies around. It would catch up with him and then we would be without 2 outfielders. I think McLouth would be the better experienced option for the time being, it could possibly change next season but for now…
by RichmondBravesFan on Jul 8, 2011 11:16 AM EDT up reply actions
Plus...
If we trade for Bourn he would be bat leadoff, I like McLouth as 8 hole hitter better than Schafer, where could Schafer bat in a line up with Bourn?
by RichmondBravesFan on Jul 8, 2011 11:23 AM EDT up reply actions
Schafer's bat plays in CF...
only because we lack better options. It would play even worse in LF.
-C
It’s rough to sit through these games and not have someone that can’t hit a Ball?
Should be noted...
That McLouth is actually a better option than Schafer currently. But they’re both playing now, and would be in a Chipper injury scenario w/out a trade.
If someone like Bourn comes in, Schafer should get a demotion to continue working on his skills at the plate.
-C
It’s rough to sit through these games and not have someone that can’t hit a Ball?
If Schafer is demoted...
he should tear up AAA and could be a valuable trade chip depending if we did sign another CF and for how long.
by RichmondBravesFan on Jul 8, 2011 11:44 AM EDT up reply actions
Why? He’s been awful in MLB and AAA all season.
Twitter: @Ben_Duronio Stop calling Tommy Hanson "Big Red"
27-12
Braves record with Schafer on team
Coincidence? Probably, but he has been far from awful
Steak, Shrimp, Liquor, and Pasta
He has been awful at the plate. No way to spin that one.
Twitter: @Ben_Duronio Stop calling Tommy Hanson "Big Red"
Not saying that
But he gives us the element of a dangerous baserunner when he is on base and plays a great CF.
I like him as a starter, but he would probably be great for a guy to PR in the 8th inning then be a defensive replacement for the next inning(s)
Steak, Shrimp, Liquor, and Pasta
He doesn’t play great CF. He is a good defender. it isn’t as if this is the second coming of Andruw in his prime or anything of the sort. He has his attributes offensively and is certainly better than Nate, but he is not some godsend in CF.
Twitter: @Ben_Duronio Stop calling Tommy Hanson "Big Red"
Compared to some of the work we have seen McLouth do in CF, I’d call it great defense. Not to mention that he has saved at least 2 games with defensive plays so he has already made a positive impact.
"You know when it comes to racism, people say: ' I don't care if they're black, white, purple, or green.' Uh, hold on now: purple or green?! You gotta draw the line somewhere! To hell with purple people! Unless they're suffocating, then help 'em."
I agree that Bourn...
…makes the most sense. As an upgrade on either McLouth or Schafer, he is the one guy who benefits us whether or not Chipper is available. The questions are the price to obtain Bourn and whether we can actually make any deal with the Astros during their ownership transition.
Bourn would certainly command a couple of good pitching prospects. Selling the farm for him wouldn’t be worth it but I think parting with anyone not named Teheran shouldn’t be out of the question.
The third-base umpire ran into the outfield and retrieved the biggest chunk. "It's a f***in' potato."
by alligatorimpersonator on Jul 8, 2011 12:24 PM EDT up reply actions
Bourn
Is a rich man’s schafer…
None of the stats i’ve researched support this claim but I know I’m right
"I wasn’t thinking about it. That’s the worst celebration of all time. I didn’t know what to do. I got lost in the moment." - Brian McCann
by HansonManCrush on Jul 8, 2011 12:14 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
A rich man's Schafer...
and a poor man’s Jose Reyes.
The third-base umpire ran into the outfield and retrieved the biggest chunk. "It's a f***in' potato."
by alligatorimpersonator on Jul 8, 2011 12:20 PM EDT up reply actions
We ARE getting a bat before the deadline
His name is Martin Prado.
And even if Chipper goes down for an extended period of time, the drop off between a guy like Willingham and the combination of Hinske/McLouth is not worth the sacrifice of a valuable trade chip.
Besides, when is the last time we traded for a positional player that’s panned out for us? It seems that every non-pitcher we trade for drops off the map when he gets to Atlanta.
That Derek Lee guy worked out pretty well for Atlanta last season..
"If you go out to a bar, pick up a chick, take her home, but can't close the deal, we used to call that "Calling Dan Kolb in for relief."-Talking Head
.287/.384/.465 as a Brave last year.
It’s very likely Atlanta doesn’t make the playoffs last year without the contributions they got from Lee.
"If you go out to a bar, pick up a chick, take her home, but can't close the deal, we used to call that "Calling Dan Kolb in for relief."-Talking Head
He started kinda slow, but he was pretty much the only guy hitting for most of September.
If we can land [Stephen Drew], I will give FW a bj.
~justincredubil02
by king of games on Jul 8, 2011 11:21 AM EDT up reply actions
And
He had a torn ligament in his thumb the entire time
"I wasn’t thinking about it. That’s the worst celebration of all time. I didn’t know what to do. I got lost in the moment." - Brian McCann
by HansonManCrush on Jul 8, 2011 12:15 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Teixiera was phenominal with us
LaRoche was amazing with us
Lee was great with us
McLouth’s 2009 was good
That Drew guy and Sheffield guy worked out
Edgar Rentaria was good
Mark Kotsay was good
Do I need to go on?
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Jul 8, 2011 11:15 AM EDT up reply actions
haha
Should I make my own list of failures? I understand your point, but I was thinking more in recent terms. I think you’re reaching a bit with Kotsay and definitely with McLouth.
Don’t get me started on Tiexiera. That is a sore spot.
Immediately after their respective trades
Kotsay – .289 .340 .418 .758
McLouth – .257 .354 .419 .773
Teixeira – .317 .404 .615 1.020
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Jul 8, 2011 11:41 AM EDT up reply actions
Kotsay was fine with us but he obviously wasn’t a long term answer as he did not stick around very long. McLouth was not traded for one year of production and you’re being very selective by negating his failure of a season in 2010 and subpar 2011 thus far despite the contract he has.
Tiexiera ended up being one of the worst trades of my time as a Braves fan. I understand hindsight is 20/20 and we traded for him to make a push at a ring, but I can’t understand trading away that much if you cannot guarantee keeping him long term. But that is besides the point.
These were midseason trades aimed at immediate upgrades for a playoff push. What they did in later years is irrelevant.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Jul 8, 2011 11:48 AM EDT up reply actions
That was not the case with McLouth
He was traded as the long term answer in CF.
No he wasn’t. He was the solution to Schafer getting hurt.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Jul 8, 2011 11:52 AM EDT up reply actions
Forgive me
He was the long term answer in OF in general then. He certainly was traded to be a starter for remainder of his contract. That’s for sure.
Kotsay
Was not mid-season he was opening day CF and was shipped off to Boston before the season ended
"I wasn’t thinking about it. That’s the worst celebration of all time. I didn’t know what to do. I got lost in the moment." - Brian McCann
by HansonManCrush on Jul 8, 2011 12:19 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
The only failed trades in recent years are the Fansworth/Ankiel and the Melky Cabrera deals. Ryan Church was, at worst a wash with Francoeur.
Of course, the Escobar/Gonzalez trade was bad for us, but that’s a whole ’nother discussion.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Jul 8, 2011 11:42 AM EDT up reply actions
The Esco trade is one of my main points.
Uggla hasn’t exactly caught the world on fire either, as of yet.
Have you seen him over the last 2 weeks? The man is finally hitting.
In July – 250 .379 .583 .963
In his last 12 games – 244 .380 .585 .965
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Jul 8, 2011 11:50 AM EDT up reply actions
Yes, I have, and I’m thrilled. I’m not writing the man off.
But I mean come on, we trade for him, sign him to a huge contract, and he has the worst half season of his life??? And it wasn’t just bad. It was REALLY bad. The guy is still 10 points under the Mendoza line. Sheesh.
We can only hope he fixed whatever ailed him.
Obviously, I’m not saying that he hasn’t been bad. He’s been terrible. But, it’s not like we gave anything up for him. We got him for Mike Dunn and All-Star Omar Infante.
I would rather have Dan Uggla.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Jul 8, 2011 11:57 AM EDT up reply actions
I agree with ya
But still, I’d like to see someone blow up when we trade for him as opposed to flailing like drowning person at the plate. Anywho, long story short, I’m for sticking with what we’ve got for the time being, unless there’s an all-star calibre OF/SS out there somewhere.
Forgetting Uggla’s overall numbers for a second, Justin is right: if he at least — for the rest of the year — hits exactly the way he has over the past two weeks, we’ll be great with that. It’s darn close to his “normal” productive level.
Fangraphs, on Craig Kimbrel: "His strikeout rates look like they’re coming from a video game"
Melky was Vizcaino, and a salary dump...
not a fail, based on Javy’s #s since, it was a win.
http://sportsandgrits.blogspot.com/
Agreed, but the Melky part was a fail.
I was trying to help the man out by thinking of recent bad trades…
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Jul 8, 2011 12:33 PM EDT up reply actions
Melky was only fail because McLouth and Diaz were fail...
if he was a 4th OF, he’d have been fine. It’s not like we coulda had Gardner instead, which would mean fail. We got Melky, who filled a role but unfortuantely was needed more than expected because of McLouth’s fail and also got fat and lazy. But we got Dunn, which was a cheaper Logan and became 1/2 of Uggla. Win. And we got Vizcaino who had insane stuff. Win. And didn’t have to pay Vasquez 8 figures to suck. Win.
http://sportsandgrits.blogspot.com/
They weren’t trying to use him as 4th OF from the get-go. He was the LH part of the LF platoon to start the season. Opening day leadoff hitter.
Twitter: @Ben_Duronio Stop calling Tommy Hanson "Big Red"
By opening day, McLouth was in the tank...
he didn’t get a hit all spring, or was hitting something like .100. I assume at the time of the deal, the plan was for mcLouth getting 130-50+ starts in CF. Diaz getting 100 or so in LF. Heyward 130-150+ in RF. Melky get the rest. Of course, Melky, if he wasn’t fat and lazy, might have warranted a lot more too. he wasn’t untalented.
http://sportsandgrits.blogspot.com/
'nother
ain’t a word – even as a shortened version of “another.” Would you say, “That’s a whole ‘another’ discussion?” No.
It’s a whole OTHER discussion.
:D
Hi, Justin.
[My dad's] at work making $32 an hour.
by ChopMaster on Jun 29, 2011 2:52 PM PDT
by Jareth Cutestory on Jul 8, 2011 4:02 PM EDT up reply actions
daaaaayum. I guess typing in a southern accent doesn’t sit well with you? lol
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Jul 8, 2011 4:11 PM EDT up reply actions
hahaha!
I was expecting a total PELICAN from ya since I used “ain’t.” Which, isn’t a word, either ;-)
[My dad's] at work making $32 an hour.
by ChopMaster on Jun 29, 2011 2:52 PM PDT
by Jareth Cutestory on Jul 8, 2011 4:12 PM EDT up reply actions
I almost typed “…accent doesn’t set well with you…”
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Jul 8, 2011 4:13 PM EDT up reply actions
I think there will still be talent available after the non-waiver deadline like last year.
Too many teams are still “in it” by the non-waiver deadline and if the Braves are in a pinch like last year, there might be a Derek Lee-type option available. I wouldn’t want to trade away too much talent on a stop-gap measure. This line-up, once fully healthy and Uggla and Heyward are back to their forms, could be formidable as-is.
The problem with that is that almost every other NL team will be able to pick up a guy off waivers before we do, and the AL guys have to through the entire MLB, minus Philly (depending on the standings at that time, they may have to be passed on by them as well) before we’re able to pick them up on waivers.
-C
It’s rough to sit through these games and not have someone that can’t hit a Ball?
Of those 4 players
Quentin and Ludwick suck, but Cuddyer really appeals to me as he can play multiple positions. I would like to stay put and have Martin play 3B with McLouth and Schafer is LF/CF while Chipper is out
Steak, Shrimp, Liquor, and Pasta
I'm good with not making any trades.
The outfield of McLouth, Schafer, and Heyward work for me.
McCann, Prado, Heyward, Uggla, and Freeman all producing will be more than enough offense with our pitching staff to win ballgames.
especially when the other guys offer their own tools
Mclouth gets on base well and is phenomenal on the basepaths
Schafer has raw speed and can swipe plenty of bases
Both of these guys know how to cross home plate, and have already shown significant ability to do so.
And they are both elite defenders in their respective positions..
Everyone seems to agree
Better to go with a better defensive outfield and keep the status quo. Unless the Rays feel like getting rid of Mr. Upton (yeah I’m rosterbating)
"So he basically called me a Jew. I was confused because I'm black and Methodist."
by rocket8188 on Jul 8, 2011 11:14 AM EDT via mobile reply actions
How about a new hitting coach?
To be hitting .238 with our record, is just amazing. I think we should be looking for a SS. Will Tyler be ready next yr?
by CowboyCurtis on Jul 8, 2011 11:15 AM EDT via mobile reply actions
Just get Ludwick
And platoon him with McLouth in left. Their powers combined provides a good glove and a good batter.
McLouth against Righties: 255/.379/.372
Ludwick against Lefties: 284/.346/.459 (89 ABs) (career splits he is better at hitting righties though)
So, depends on what they want for him.
Mis-Read it
I saw the career spilts in () and assumed that’s what it was
Steak, Shrimp, Liquor, and Pasta
Haha
“Their powers combine” made me immediately think of Captain Planet
"The Dos Equis guys want me to be the least interesting man in the world" - Drama
Are there any teams who are competing that have a surplus in the OF with one of the surpluses being an overpriced veteran whom they could exchange for an overpriced SP?
Just Beachy here. How 'bout you?
by ryan c on Jul 8, 2011 11:16 AM EDT via mobile reply actions
I’m all for trading some of our pitching prospects. They can’t all pitch in Atlanta and are infinitely more valuable as trade prospects than AAA pitchers.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Jul 8, 2011 11:16 AM EDT reply actions
My opinion remains the same....
Trade pitching prospects for hitting prospects of the same caliber… we lack them… we should be building for the future… Our team is not broke as it currently stands. Other than a bench bat, or bullpen arm… why screw w/ things?
Don’t worry about older women until you turn 22. It’s called the Saltalamacchia.
by bwellnjonesco on May 19, 2011 4:13 PM PDT
by Klemson Krash on Jul 8, 2011 12:02 PM EDT up reply actions
I’m not advocating trading Delgado for Melky. I’m simply saying that if Ryan Braun were available, we shouldn’t hang up the phone because the Brewers want Teheran in return.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Jul 8, 2011 12:18 PM EDT up reply actions
I don't disagree with this either...
If we are a buyer, it should be on our terms though… we should not get taken to the woodshed in any deal… Also, I don’t want a rental. Braun would NOT be a rental… :-) He’d make me as happy as someone like Justin Upton…
If we got Justin Upton, I would suck Frank… oh wait… someone already has that line.
Don’t worry about older women until you turn 22. It’s called the Saltalamacchia.
by bwellnjonesco on May 19, 2011 4:13 PM PDT
by Klemson Krash on Jul 8, 2011 12:47 PM EDT up reply actions
If the surgery Chipper needs
only requires him to be out 2-4 weeks, a rather basic stint on the DL, I say no trades. I’m all for trading prospects if it brings in the right package, but if its only needed for a few weeks, a month tops, then its really not worth it. Those prospects are very valuable, and could get us so much in return, I’d hate waste them on desperately purchasing Ryan Ludwick.
It was a particularly small egg...thats why I asked.
by thenightstallion on Jul 8, 2011 11:23 AM EDT reply actions
Liberty media can't sell this team fast enough...I'm so sick of their absentee ownership handcuffing the team so much financially
"My everything, or nothing. My everything, or nothing. WE gonna fight, til we can't fight no more. We gonna lie down, and bleed a while. Gonna get up, and fight again." -Tashard Choice
by SouthernPanther on Jul 8, 2011 11:29 AM EDT reply actions
I heard an interview
with Frank Wren this morning. Sounds like they are gonna wait til Prado gets back and see how things go. Also, he said the Braves are not interested in trading any of their top young pitchers including Beachy. His exact quote was “we are not in that mode at all”. He totally shot down the Quentin/Beachy rumor. Frank has been very consistent about the Braves holding onto their top pitching prospects. I like that.
by jrhode on Jul 8, 2011 11:30 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
i'd rather trade pitching in the offseason when we can get more for our prospects than what we would get now
"My everything, or nothing. My everything, or nothing. WE gonna fight, til we can't fight no more. We gonna lie down, and bleed a while. Gonna get up, and fight again." -Tashard Choice
by SouthernPanther on Jul 8, 2011 11:31 AM EDT up reply actions
Yeah me too
But, I think the Braves will be more likely to trade an expensive veteran like Lowe or maybe even Jurrjens in the offseason than one of their young pitchers. I think its best to hold onto these guys like Teheran, Minor, Delgado, and Vizcaino and continue to evaluate them and see whose gonna work out long term.
Thanks for posting this. Rec’d.
I understood that this has been and, therefore, would likely continue to be Wren’s position. It is really the only sensible position, given that he is handcuffed financially and the odds of salary dumping Lowe are slim and none.
We ride out Chipper’s presumptive surgery and hope to hang on to a playoff slot.
I for one and glad to hear this from Wren.
"Baseball statistics are like a girl in a bikini. They show a lot, but not everything." ~ Toby Harrah
Braves fans
who are clamoring for Wren to trade a Mike Minor or Beachy or Delgado for a big bat at the deadline or even in the offseason are gonna be disappointed. Frank has said over and over again that they are gonna build around their pitching and hang onto their top pitching prospects who could make a big impact at the big league level. I would not at all be surprised if Beachy, Minor, Delgado, Teheran, and Vizcaino are still with the Braves when the 2012 season starts.
What good will they do us with Jurrjens, Medlen, Hanson and Hudson still around too?
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Jul 8, 2011 12:56 PM EDT up reply actions
Trade Jurrjens. Stock at its highest and will get extremely expensive when the options behind him aren’t far off from his talent level. Could get a ton back for him.
Twitter: @Ben_Duronio Stop calling Tommy Hanson "Big Red"
I’m all for this and have been propagating the idea for a while now.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Jul 8, 2011 12:59 PM EDT up reply actions
Obviously!
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Jul 8, 2011 1:02 PM EDT up reply actions
Personal favorite player we got
still think he makes the most trade sense this winter.
http://sportsandgrits.blogspot.com/
If you say you think he will regress or you want to trade him it means you hate him. Haven’t you read the rules?
Twitter: @Ben_Duronio Stop calling Tommy Hanson "Big Red"
Also, I hate Jordan Schafer because I think Nate is a better hitter.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Jul 8, 2011 1:05 PM EDT up reply actions
JJ
With each start he seems to debunk the sabr-regression argument as applied to him. Depending on the ownership situation, I say keep him. I am not convinced Minor is more than a 4 or 5 yet. I am convinced JJ is a top-2 type talent.
After Lowe and Huddy are gone, those backups are gonna start running out real quick. I say hold on to the youngins and get the bat in free agency.
I said "seems" to debunk
My point is that if this regression is supposed to happen, shouldn’t we be seeing it by now? He has pitched better and better, not worse and worse, (take injury plagued year out), as his career has progressed even though he has the same stuff.
Already beginning to see it. 19/14 K/BB ratio past five starts. The dominant Oriole start is the only start out of those five where he has struck out more than four batters and walked less than two.
Twitter: @Ben_Duronio Stop calling Tommy Hanson "Big Red"
I guess that is my point
The peripheral stat rules, which in general are a good if not the best indicator of a pitcher’s value, don’t seem to apply to JJ. 19/14 K/BB is not great, but the guy keeps runs from crossing the plate. He knows how to pitch to contact and continues to get better at it.
He’s been fortunate. His strand rate is absurd and will not last.
Twitter: @Ben_Duronio Stop calling Tommy Hanson "Big Red"
Fortunate for 3 seasons?
(last year excluded)
I am not saying he is a Halladay type guy like he is his year, just saying that he is a top 2 pitcher on every team not named Philly.
2 seasons. This years version is completely different than the one in ‘09. He’s still very good and potentially a No. 1 when he regresses, but he isn’t the type of pitcher most paint him to be. Nobody could sustain that strand rate. Nobody.
Twitter: @Ben_Duronio Stop calling Tommy Hanson "Big Red"
Interesting
So you are saying that other GMs overvalue him in the same way I “overvalue” him and we should take advantage of that via trade. I would think other GMs would see the same flaws that you do.
No, they wouldn’t overvalue him the way fans overvalue him. They would value him pretty highly, which is a very good No.2/potential No. 1 starter and give a good package back. The Braves are pitching loaded and need to free up money. Trading Jurrjens in the offseason is the best way to do that.
Twitter: @Ben_Duronio Stop calling Tommy Hanson "Big Red"
Maybe he pitches that much better from the slide
than the wind up.
http://sportsandgrits.blogspot.com/
One year of Lowe even at $15m could appeal to someone too
near lock for a decent 200 innings, and if he can duplicate last year of a hot run the last month or two, I think we can find someone to bite that hook. Maybe even a bad contract swap for someone wanting to shed a high salary LF.
http://sportsandgrits.blogspot.com/
Couldn't agree more.
No, I dont hate Jurrjens. I think he will be a fine pitcher for a long time (although not neccesarily a sub 2 ERA pitcher) but his value is as high as it could be right now. Doesnt make a lot of sense to throw big dollars at him on a long term deal. This offseason it might be best to sell high and get something really good in return.
We'll lets see
1. Hudson’s contract is up after 2012 (team option for 2013) and he’s getting older.
2. Lowe is gone after 2012.
3. Jurrjens can hit the market after 2013.
4. Medlen is probably gonna be back in the bullpen when he comes back, at least initially.
So, between Jurrjens, Lowe, and Hudson you could have 3 spots opening up real soon. And, thats not counting significant injuries to anybody which are always a very real possibility with pitchers. It may seem like a logjam now but its only gonna be that way in the short term.
But the 2012 season starts long before anything you just mentioned happens.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Jul 8, 2011 1:03 PM EDT up reply actions
and your point is?
The Braves have minor league options for several more seasons on all of those young pitchers. Its not like they have 7 veteran pitchers for the rotation who cant be sent to the minors. Not only that, but Minor, Teheran, and Delgado could all use more seasoning in the minors based on what I’ve seen and read.
Teheran and Minor have gleaned about all they can from the minors
their next step is big league adjustments that aren’t gonna be made against AAA hitters. Delgado will be the same by the end of the year, if not middle of next.
http://sportsandgrits.blogspot.com/
Really?
Have you seen Teheran’s K ratio this year. Its noticeably down from last year although he’s still getting good results. And, he didn’t exactly blow anybody away in his 2 starts in the majors. I’m probably in the minority in believing that he still needs to work on some things in the minors. Same with Mike Minor. They changed his mechanics after they drafted him and that is still a work in progress. He isn’t as consistent as he needs to be to hold down a big league job.
2.69 FIP at triple-A is impressive. He would be in the rotation for most MLB teams. Next year I would be comfortable with him being in the type of role that Minor is in right now. 6th starter and probably end up being in the rotation for 10-20 starts.
Twitter: @Ben_Duronio Stop calling Tommy Hanson "Big Red"
That sounds about right
Another thing I’m worried about with Teheran is that he doesn’t have a lot of innings pitched in the minors. I think his season high is 145. I hope he’s able to get stretched out this year to 160—165 innings or so.
My point is simple – there is such thing as too much pitching. Having all of these guys is well and good, but in the end, there isn’t enough room for 13 starting pitchers when we only can use 5. Sure, you’d like to keep a few around as backups to injuries and such, but they are infinitely more valuable as trade chips.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Jul 8, 2011 1:10 PM EDT up reply actions
So you would not trade Teheran for Braun or Kemp if the offer presented itself?
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Jul 8, 2011 1:23 PM EDT up reply actions
Teheran is far more valuable as a AAA starter and a possible 6th starter in case of injuries than any sort of trade chip for a mere everyday player like Ryan Braun.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Jul 8, 2011 1:25 PM EDT up reply actions
That’s the short term. Long term is a No. 1 starter and potential ace. 6 years of Teheran is going to be very valuable, especially with three of them being at the league minimum.
Twitter: @Ben_Duronio Stop calling Tommy Hanson "Big Red"
I'd trade JT in a hearbeat for Braun.
An established, monster, every-day player is better than a star-pitcher in my opinion.
All this speculation is operating in la-la land anyway, obviously.
You’re absolutely correct, but one signed for 10 years and a ton of money isn’t sure to be as valuable in terms of dollars to wins as a cost controlled potential ace.
Twitter: @Ben_Duronio Stop calling Tommy Hanson "Big Red"
Until you consider we've got cost controlled aces
we don’t have any bats as valuable as his.
http://sportsandgrits.blogspot.com/
We have one cost controlled ace in Tommy Hanson, who won’t be cost controlled for much longer. Got a few potential mid-rotation or better arms, but no other cost controlled aces. Like I said, I would do it for Trout or a hitter that costs little and will be controlled for a number of years, but not for a very expensive poor fielding outfielder with a great bat.
Twitter: @Ben_Duronio Stop calling Tommy Hanson "Big Red"
You're crazy
2 of the best OFs in the game, in their prime for a pitcher dominated AAA. I’d do it in a heartbeat
Steak, Shrimp, Liquor, and Pasta
You’re leaving out the part that I explained numerous times.
Twitter: @Ben_Duronio Stop calling Tommy Hanson "Big Red"
I’d do it for Trout though. That’s probably about it. Money matters here too.
Twitter: @Ben_Duronio Stop calling Tommy Hanson "Big Red"
Dude
that’s not happening. No way Kemp or Braun go on the market. Or Evan Longoria or any other cornerstone player that would be worth trading a potential ace away who happens to be very affordable for the foreseeable future.
I know it’s not happening, but the point remains. If we have the ability to trade for a top hitter, we do it, regardless of whether or not we have to part with one of our stable horses.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Jul 8, 2011 3:26 PM EDT up reply actions
I don't agree
and neither does Frank Wren. Look at the Braves lineup. Its mostly built thru the farm system with one or two guys obtained in trades that did not involve premium starting pitching prospects. I think the Braves will continue with that approach. You can’t build around your starting pitching and trade away top notch pitching prospects. The only teams that can do that are the big market clubs with endless resources.
When you have 13 legitimate MLB-caliber starting pitchers, you can afford to trade some away.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Jul 8, 2011 3:57 PM EDT up reply actions
yep.
[My dad's] at work making $32 an hour.
by ChopMaster on Jun 29, 2011 2:52 PM PDT
by Jareth Cutestory on Jul 8, 2011 4:06 PM EDT up reply actions
Bet Hudson lasts past 2013
o/u for me would be 2015 on his last year (which will come as a Brave).
http://sportsandgrits.blogspot.com/
and there is no way to predict that "real soon"
- that is, between now and mid-season 2012 – even one of the rising young guns (Teheran, Minor, Delgado, or Vizcaino) will be ready for a full-time role in our ML starting rotation. I’d say Teheran and Minor are the most likely to be ready, but none of them are much more than 50/50.
Given the risk of injury, I agree with Wren’s apparent plan to hold on to everybody.
Teheran, Minor are ready now
Delgado too if we were a lesser team. Their control and stuff is there, as is the endurance. Any tweaking they’ve got remaining could be done as 3/4/5s in an MLB rotation and aren’t necessarily done in AAA where they’ve all shown MiLB batters are of little threat to them.
http://sportsandgrits.blogspot.com/
I'd like to see this team go after a utility man like omar infante
if chipper goes down and we have to put prado at 3rd, we lose a lot of flexibility.
"My everything, or nothing. My everything, or nothing. WE gonna fight, til we can't fight no more. We gonna lie down, and bleed a while. Gonna get up, and fight again." -Tashard Choice
by SouthernPanther on Jul 8, 2011 11:33 AM EDT reply actions
how much would it cost to get infante back?
GET TO THE CHOPPAH
I don't know about the guy(s) upstairs, but I do believe in Welsh Jesus
VICK-VICK-VICK-VICKTORIOUS
Why?
Infante 2011 – .257 .301 .317 .617
Infante career – 273 .317 .386 .703
Infante in Atlanta – 309 .353 .411 .763
His couple of years in Atlanta were an abberation from the player that he really is. He’s simply not that good.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Jul 8, 2011 11:45 AM EDT up reply actions
Oh, ye of little faith. On cue.
"It looks like The Hound of the Baskervilles out there." - Steve Stone
"...I'm reminded of Wuthering Heights." - Harry Caray
~
Swing and a drive...Belted right! Welcome to the Show!!!
by Chief Noc-A-Homa on Jul 8, 2011 11:46 AM EDT up reply actions
Oh ye of blind homerism.
How’d that faith work out for the Marlins?
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Jul 8, 2011 11:47 AM EDT up reply actions
The Marlins suck.
The clubhouse chemistry of the Braves is all he really needs. And Prado. But everyone seems to get that but you.
"It looks like The Hound of the Baskervilles out there." - Steve Stone
"...I'm reminded of Wuthering Heights." - Harry Caray
~
Swing and a drive...Belted right! Welcome to the Show!!!
by Chief Noc-A-Homa on Jul 8, 2011 11:49 AM EDT up reply actions
Infante was in the clubhouse with Escobar…your points are contradictory.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Jul 8, 2011 11:52 AM EDT up reply actions
……That really has nothing to do with anything.
If Escobar wasn’t talking with Chino, he wasn’t talking to anyone, anyways.
"It looks like The Hound of the Baskervilles out there." - Steve Stone
"...I'm reminded of Wuthering Heights." - Harry Caray
~
Swing and a drive...Belted right! Welcome to the Show!!!
by Chief Noc-A-Homa on Jul 8, 2011 11:56 AM EDT up reply actions
Well, seeing as how Infante put up his best numbers in a clubhouse that was riddled with a lack of chemistry from the starting SS, I’d say it has everything to do with your assertion that Infante hit well because he and the guys got along.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Jul 8, 2011 1:28 PM EDT up reply actions
Whatever.
And I mean that. You’re a class act.
"It looks like The Hound of the Baskervilles out there." - Steve Stone
"...I'm reminded of Wuthering Heights." - Harry Caray
~
Swing and a drive...Belted right! Welcome to the Show!!!
by Chief Noc-A-Homa on Jul 8, 2011 1:34 PM EDT up reply actions
Ok then.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Jul 8, 2011 3:26 PM EDT up reply actions
This is not something I would ever agree with. He was utilized correctly. As a starter, he has a ton of flaws. Same thing with Hinske. Good in spot starts and in stretches when he’s needed, but if forced into every day duty the flaws glow bright.
Twitter: @Ben_Duronio Stop calling Tommy Hanson "Big Red"
You also obviously have no class then.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Jul 8, 2011 3:27 PM EDT up reply actions
He needs to go ahead and have the surgery, be ready for late august sept. It doesnt help to play on a bad knee, yeah, Doc’s said it cant do further damage. Nonsense! He’s old! Get it done, get ready for the playoffs, lets make october love.
by Slinkyjoe on Jul 8, 2011 11:40 AM EDT via mobile reply actions
At this point, I would guess...
…that barring a Prado setback, Chipper has surgery next Wednesday. He isn’t going to hit the DL before the Phillies series this weekend unless we were ready to activate Prado, which we are not, and while Monday makes the most sense, for the sake of two days, he should just go ahead and play what could easily be his final all star game.
So, the docs are full of crap?
Knee injuries are what they are. Once the damage is done, it can’t get worse. In fact, docs will tell you that you don’t even have to have surgeries to fix the problems like torn ACLs, MCLs, etc.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Jul 8, 2011 11:47 AM EDT up reply actions
Ok then.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Jul 8, 2011 12:31 PM EDT up reply actions
What does the meniscus do?
‘These meniscus functions to distribute your body weight across the knee joint. Without the meniscus present, the weight of your body would be unevenly applied to the bones in your legs (the femur and tibia). This uneven weight distribution would cause excessive forces in specific areas of bone leading to early arthritis of knee joint. Therefore, the function of the meniscus is critical to the health of your knee.’
I’m well aware of what a meniscus is and what it does, but thank you.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Jul 9, 2011 11:08 AM EDT up reply actions
If he hadn’t made the All Star team, my guess is he would have already had it set up.
3 weeks is nothing compared to 3 months.
Just saying.
"It looks like The Hound of the Baskervilles out there." - Steve Stone
"...I'm reminded of Wuthering Heights." - Harry Caray
~
Swing and a drive...Belted right! Welcome to the Show!!!
by Chief Noc-A-Homa on Jul 8, 2011 11:48 AM EDT up reply actions
The Royals have a couple of OF there likely to deal who we're familiar with
d-wade=d-ouche
by captainamerica* on Jul 8, 2011 11:40 AM EDT reply actions
Dear god no!!!!!!
oh but Frenchy’s splits are so good if paired with McLouth.
Good. I hope the Phillies get them
Fangraphs, on Craig Kimbrel: "His strikeout rates look like they’re coming from a video game"
I'm still a bit confused/upset
That KK wasn’t dealt before the season to save the extra $1-2M. Every dollar counts – especially if it’s going to cost us more talent to make up the extra money.
Cue the inclement weather (in Philly)
The Marlins are way out.
Proctor and a younger prospect for Infante would clear it all up.
Fuck you, Liberty Media.
"It looks like The Hound of the Baskervilles out there." - Steve Stone
"...I'm reminded of Wuthering Heights." - Harry Caray
~
Swing and a drive...Belted right! Welcome to the Show!!!
by Chief Noc-A-Homa on Jul 8, 2011 11:45 AM EDT reply actions
The thing that really pisses me off the most, is that we’re so close. So close to being able to win it all. We’re on the cusp of going from a great team to an outstanding team. The same could be said for last year, too. And these fools could care less. You have to spend money to make money. But once you’re rich, you really don’t give a shit if you don’t have to. And I’m pretty positive that they don’t.
Our disadvantage is being located in the middle of the ghetto armpit of the entire country. We attract dick, aside from the playoffs, because our stadium holds 50K, and most of the residents of Atlanta and the surrounding area would rather talk about football/basketball. It’s regional. Really. As much as people may be uneasy about that, it’s the truth. Baseball is royalty in other parts of tehe country. Down south, it’s a few of us trying desperately to get everyone else to actually give a shit. And the shift in cultural preferences in sports is underlying.
For Phillies fans, the attendance joke against us is really the only thing they’ve got, and they use it often/always. Even though we’re comparing a city that is 3(+)x larger than the other. And is located in a baseball-stronghold area.
My point in all this, is that the Braves and their fans shouldn’t be faulted because of where we happen to be located.
If we had a little push from our ownership to actually win the damn thing, we probably could. And for more than one year.
It’s kind of like the bitchy owner of the Indians. Hell, They probably want us to lose, so they can try and relocate the Braves to Oklahoma, or something. ……Fitting, enough.
I’ll bet the scum that is Liberty Media is sitting in their nice, little outfit in Colorado, right now, probably still pissed that the Rockies just got swept by the Braves.
~
Which only makes it that much more phucking sweet when we win the whole damn thing, despite all of the bullshit.
Go. Braves. Go.
"It looks like The Hound of the Baskervilles out there." - Steve Stone
"...I'm reminded of Wuthering Heights." - Harry Caray
~
Swing and a drive...Belted right! Welcome to the Show!!!
by Chief Noc-A-Homa on Jul 8, 2011 1:49 PM EDT up reply actions
And, as much as a gamble as it is, I don’t think this current version of Nate/Jordan/Heyward would be as “limited” as people may think.
Each has been holding their own, and seem to be heating up.
"It looks like The Hound of the Baskervilles out there." - Steve Stone
"...I'm reminded of Wuthering Heights." - Harry Caray
~
Swing and a drive...Belted right! Welcome to the Show!!!
by Chief Noc-A-Homa on Jul 8, 2011 12:05 PM EDT reply actions
Schafer, for sure, has been streaky at best, though we gotta remember, he’s still had fewer than 200 ML plate appearances this year (just 39 games). I’m not sure you can truly count his 195 PAs in 2009 given the injury then, but he’s still very new to this level.
We gave Freeman the latitude to work things out at this level — we really kinda need to do that with Jordan, too.
Fangraphs, on Craig Kimbrel: "His strikeout rates look like they’re coming from a video game"
Tired of stop gap OF solutions...
I just wish we’d pay for a legit long term player, not these short term hopeful fixes like a Quentin, Ludwick, etc.
http://sportsandgrits.blogspot.com/
Teheran and Minor for Braun – I’d do it in a heartbeat.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Jul 8, 2011 12:34 PM EDT up reply actions
I think they might if we eat the whole salary and include other lesser prospects.
Ok, maybe not. lol
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Jul 8, 2011 12:39 PM EDT up reply actions
Eat the whole salary?
maybe with a Carlos Gonzalez, but Braun’s salary isn’t an issue.
http://sportsandgrits.blogspot.com/
That was kinda the point…lol
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Jul 8, 2011 12:57 PM EDT up reply actions
I was speaking tongue-in-cheek
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Jul 8, 2011 1:00 PM EDT up reply actions
NVM. It’s ruined. Forget it. You have interrogated it to death. Nothing to see here. Move along. It’s over. Kaput. Dead. Gone. Finished.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Jul 8, 2011 1:01 PM EDT up reply actions
McCutcheon or Braun require crazy price...
so just who is a realistic long term solution I wonder. If we’ll move say Minor and Delgado or Vizcaino in a package, just what are the options we can bring back in terms of long term quality at SS, CF, or LF.
http://sportsandgrits.blogspot.com/
That is exactly the right question. But, very unfortunately, there is no clear answer except that we would certainly be giving up a lot.
Wren may be playing a waiting game for this very reason and betting that the chances are better to wait out Liberty Media and get new ownership ready to spend more $$$, rather than to undermine the system by giving up too much in an ill-advised “win now” trade that very well might not pan out.
We;ve got a lot to give...
we need a big bat. We’ll need one this winter if we don’t add it before then. Why keep delaying the inevitable when we can make the move now and benefit sooner?
http://sportsandgrits.blogspot.com/
The mystical big bat
is a pipe dream. Basically, you are proposing a significant gutting of our pitching – our great team strength – for a generation, in an effort to acquire a big bat.
You yourself have identified 3 requirements for such a trade: it must yield a (1) realistic and (2) long term and (3) [true] solution.
Because as numerous people have pointed out a few thousand times now, Braun, McCutchen, Longoria, Justin Upton and anyone else in that top category are not exactly readily available on the trade market, it is just not going to happen.
Prado at 3rd
Outfield stays as is. Schafer will adjust to hitting at this level. Remember, his current stats are a sss at this level. He has a quick bat, good hands, and his defense and speed are above average in my opinion. He just needs to learn discipline at the plate, and that doesnt happen overnight. McClouth has a higher obp, but he is walking at a higher rate, he doesnt seem to be a distraction to the pitcher when he gets on like Schafer is. Schafer has caused quite a few opposing fielders to rush throws and make errors, knowing how fast he is. I think the reality of a trade is if Wren does make a move, it wont be anyone we truly want with great numbers because LIberty wont allow it. We would get an average player or have to give up far too much to get a good one. Our talent at the lower levels is incredible and should continue to keep the Braves on a winning level for years to come.
I think if we can be as patient with Nate and Brooks to work through their issues, we should give young Schafer a chance to work through his too.
I wish Chipper (after the ASG) would go ahead and get the surgery, put Prado at 3rd and go with what we’ve got for now. Then, when Chipper returns see how it’s working and decide if moves/deals are necessary then.
"Baseball statistics are like a girl in a bikini. They show a lot, but not everything." ~ Toby Harrah
as usual... you're a genius and in a few short sentences, you articulate the thoughts in my head.
I would subscribe to your newsletter.
Don’t worry about older women until you turn 22. It’s called the Saltalamacchia.
by bwellnjonesco on May 19, 2011 4:13 PM PDT
by Klemson Krash on Jul 8, 2011 12:50 PM EDT up reply actions
Not worth it
her newsletter is overpriced and lacks substantive information. It’s got some cool drawings and the recipes aren’t bad, but the rest is fluff and garbage and it’s waaaaaaaaaaaaay too obsessed with #10.
http://sportsandgrits.blogspot.com/
Haven’t you heard? Beachy is my new heartthrob ;-)
"Baseball statistics are like a girl in a bikini. They show a lot, but not everything." ~ Toby Harrah
This is all contingent on Prado's health
This is the second injury in as many seasons where Prado has missed significant time, and 3 in 4 years if I remember correctly.
Prado’s been as fragile as Chipper, just younger. It’s too bad, because you’re right, if Prado was reliable, this plan makes the most sense.
Without assurances that Prado won’t get injured again, you can’t reliably trust that plan fully.
Deinitely. It’s not like he’s pulling a Jose Reyes or something.
"It looks like The Hound of the Baskervilles out there." - Steve Stone
"...I'm reminded of Wuthering Heights." - Harry Caray
~
Swing and a drive...Belted right! Welcome to the Show!!!
by Chief Noc-A-Homa on Jul 8, 2011 2:08 PM EDT up reply actions
The difference is that Nate and Brooks have a history of success at this level, and Schafer hasn’t had a history of success in over 3 years.
Twitter: @Ben_Duronio Stop calling Tommy Hanson "Big Red"
But, he does have a history of f***ing success!
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Jul 8, 2011 12:57 PM EDT up reply actions
True, but Nate was pretty unsuccessful for a while after the Heyward collision and we gave him time.
Schafer has also been injured and for the first time playing really healthy.
He may not work out, but I’m willing to give him a bit more time to prove he won’t.
"Baseball statistics are like a girl in a bikini. They show a lot, but not everything." ~ Toby Harrah
He had time to prove that he could in triple-A and he couldn’t. Now he’s had time to prove that he could in the majors and he can’t. There’s a difference between under-performing, like Nate was last season and earlier this season, and performing to what your talent is. Schafer would have to over-perform to be productive offensively. The only real argument to start Schafer over McLouth would be the defensive value. With run prevention not being a problem, going with the better bat is almost certainly the better decision. Whether they do that or not is yet to be determined.
Twitter: @Ben_Duronio Stop calling Tommy Hanson "Big Red"
Well, I hope they both do well and we play Prado at 3rd if Chipper has to have his surgery. I know numbers/stats may indicate my hope in that is illogical but that’s part how I am a fan. I like rooting for the guy who’s struggling to turn it around and prove he belongs on the team. Maybe it’s the chick in me. I’m a realist too and know that has it limitations and there comes a time when for the sake of the team, you have to cut your ties and make a move.
Nate may be the “better bat” right now, but on defense his “catch the ball and cha-cha-cha” before throwing it in the general direction of the infield can sometimes give the opponent extra bases. So in theory, he could cost you runs and offset some of the benefit of his “better bat”.
Not wanting to debate it – there are tons of people who think Schafer’s time here should be done – I’m just more of a wishful thinker than stat cruncher and readily admit that.
"Baseball statistics are like a girl in a bikini. They show a lot, but not everything." ~ Toby Harrah
Even looking at it without the numbers, Nate’s just better offensively than Schafer is. There’s certainly a better chance at Nate having an above average offensive second half than Schafer, would you not agree? And like I said, the defensive increase is there for Schafer over McLouth (much more overstated than it should be, btw), but the Braves problems have been offensively and not with run prevention.
Twitter: @Ben_Duronio Stop calling Tommy Hanson "Big Red"
He (Nate) could. Time will tell. I hope if that’s the move they make, Nate has a career year.
In regard to run prevention, how many 1-run losses have we had this year?
"Baseball statistics are like a girl in a bikini. They show a lot, but not everything." ~ Toby Harrah
I don’t know, but that doesn’t have much to do with run prevention. The Braves are consistently in the tops of pitching categories while being middle of the pack or worse in offensive numbers.
Twitter: @Ben_Duronio Stop calling Tommy Hanson "Big Red"
Out of curiosity, got a breakdown of those stats based upon his position in the lineup? He is walking a lot, but getting walks batting 8th is not near as important as getting walks batting lead off or 2nd. I just wonder if he walked as much near the top of the order. OBP doesnt really tell the whole story.
Why would we shorten the sample size? It’s fucking retarded that so many think the walks he receives are solely because the pitcher bats behind him for at maximum 3 PA per game. He has always had an impressive walk rate. He is a patient hitter. I never look at statistics based on lineup position because it means almost absolutely nothing.
Twitter: @Ben_Duronio Stop calling Tommy Hanson "Big Red"
We should bat Nate in the 1st inning of games where he has a 421 .421 .579 1.000 for the season.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Jul 8, 2011 1:13 PM EDT up reply actions
You can argue about the weight, but I don’t think any pitcher in the Majors would agree with your assertion that batting with a pitcher behind you means nothing. It’s just difficult for you to quantify so it is hard for you to accept.
"You know when it comes to racism, people say: ' I don't care if they're black, white, purple, or green.' Uh, hold on now: purple or green?! You gotta draw the line somewhere! To hell with purple people! Unless they're suffocating, then help 'em."
He has 89 PAs outside of the 7 and 8 spots.
It’s a terrible argument.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Jul 8, 2011 1:11 PM EDT up reply actions
*88 PAs
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Jul 8, 2011 1:12 PM EDT up reply actions
Other people have tried to make that argument in recent weeks. I wasn’t calling you out specifically or accusing you of making the argument. I was more or less just trying to stop the whole thing from getting started.
Some people just refuse to accept Nate as a valuable asset.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Jul 8, 2011 1:22 PM EDT up reply actions
I got no bones with Nate
I was happy to see him doing better this year, still think he needs to improve more though. I think our outfield has to be one of the best defensively in all of baseball right now.
Haterz gon hate, trolls gon troll.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Jul 8, 2011 12:58 PM EDT up reply actions
...and
[My dad's] at work making $32 an hour.
by ChopMaster on Jun 29, 2011 2:52 PM PDT
by Jareth Cutestory on Jul 8, 2011 4:11 PM EDT up reply actions
I’d still go after a center fielder. McLouth has a good amount of value as a left fielder if Chipper goes down. An addition of Bourn or Pagan with McLouth as the fourth outfielder would make the lineup and defense better while also making the bench probably the best in the league by far. Ross/Hinske/Conrad/McLouth/Hernandez. That’s pretty solid.
Twitter: @Ben_Duronio Stop calling Tommy Hanson "Big Red"
I've wanted Pagan forever
Just never thought the Mets would trade him to us
Steak, Shrimp, Liquor, and Pasta
Well according to ESPN, the Mets are, “still in contention.”
lolololetc
"It looks like The Hound of the Baskervilles out there." - Steve Stone
"...I'm reminded of Wuthering Heights." - Harry Caray
~
Swing and a drive...Belted right! Welcome to the Show!!!
by Chief Noc-A-Homa on Jul 8, 2011 2:09 PM EDT up reply actions
Laughing?
3 games over .500 with 75 or so games left, they are for sure in contention
Steak, Shrimp, Liquor, and Pasta
See below.
The only team they’ll be contending with is the Nationals, for third place.
"It looks like The Hound of the Baskervilles out there." - Steve Stone
"...I'm reminded of Wuthering Heights." - Harry Caray
~
Swing and a drive...Belted right! Welcome to the Show!!!
by Chief Noc-A-Homa on Jul 8, 2011 2:17 PM EDT up reply actions
….provided we don’t go 0-12 against the Gnats in the second half. (nervous laughter…) ha… ha… ha ha……
"It looks like The Hound of the Baskervilles out there." - Steve Stone
"...I'm reminded of Wuthering Heights." - Harry Caray
~
Swing and a drive...Belted right! Welcome to the Show!!!
by Chief Noc-A-Homa on Jul 8, 2011 4:08 PM EDT up reply actions
With Reyes out for 3 weeks, they should fall out of contention pretty quickly. They’ll almost certainly trade Beltran and lose value in right field also. Should be about 4-5 games under .500 by the time the deadline hits.
Twitter: @Ben_Duronio Stop calling Tommy Hanson "Big Red"
Not to mention
They have the two best teams in the NL in front of them.
I'm all for Cuddyer, he's pretty underrated IMO
I’m sure the Braves would love the flexibility he brings too (I might be wrong, but I think he’s spent time at 1st, 2nd, 3rd, LF and RF- not bad at all)
"My parents do a lot of things behind the scenes that go unnoticed"- Cam Newton, Heisman acceptance speech.
Why did Chipper start yesterday?
Not sure if this was addressed yet (haven’t had a chance to wade through all of the comments).
With his knee getting progressively worse, why in the hell did Chipper start in yesterday’s afternoon game? Give him a day off before the biggest series of the year, to date. Weekday afternoon games should be an automatic off day for Chipper mid season.
by aaaaandTheBravesWin on Jul 8, 2011 1:11 PM EDT reply actions
maybe because his knee isn’t as bad as DOB says?
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Jul 8, 2011 1:12 PM EDT up reply actions
Well...
that would be nice, wouldn’t it?.
by aaaaandTheBravesWin on Jul 8, 2011 1:59 PM EDT up reply actions
This far in...
And no one has mentioned Beltran yet? I call that progress!
by MississippiBrave on Jul 8, 2011 1:42 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
The Mets would have to eat 17.9 of his 18 mil for that to work.
"It looks like The Hound of the Baskervilles out there." - Steve Stone
"...I'm reminded of Wuthering Heights." - Harry Caray
~
Swing and a drive...Belted right! Welcome to the Show!!!
by Chief Noc-A-Homa on Jul 8, 2011 1:52 PM EDT up reply actions
My guess: Prado is back after the break, Chipper and the Braves give it a week or so to make sure Prado’s legs are healthy, then, if so, Chipper has the surgery and comes back around mid-August. I bet the only move they make is maaaaaybe a right-handed bullpen arm if they see a good opportunity.
by MississippiBrave on Jul 8, 2011 1:48 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
I don’t want any of the guys listed above. I’d rather not make a move than get an of them (though, if I had to pick, I would choose Quentin)
"You know when it comes to racism, people say: ' I don't care if they're black, white, purple, or green.' Uh, hold on now: purple or green?! You gotta draw the line somewhere! To hell with purple people! Unless they're suffocating, then help 'em."
i really dont understand all the love for Bourn?
by jdmarine on Jul 8, 2011 2:48 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
damn blackberry!
He is really good, I don’t feel that he is elite though. What exactly would you all be willing to give up for him?
Oh, NCChopper. I saw you talking about getting your CCP. Could I suggest going to one of the NRA courses instead of the usual concealed carry course? I have done several of them and they are just as good as some of the classes I had as a Marine!
by jdmarine on Jul 8, 2011 3:15 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I don't like any of this.
Once Marteeeen is in full-effect, I expect Chipper to get his meniscus repaired, and to be back on the field after a stint on the 15-day DL. I think we’ll be fine for that stretch, and even MORE than fine if we have a relatively “easy” series of games. Then he’ll come back, right as rain, and we will steamroll into the playoffs and take the whole damn thing.
[My dad's] at work making $32 an hour.
by ChopMaster on Jun 29, 2011 2:52 PM PDT
by Jareth Cutestory on Jul 8, 2011 3:58 PM EDT reply actions
Well you should find some downers because it looks like rain.
"You know when it comes to racism, people say: ' I don't care if they're black, white, purple, or green.' Uh, hold on now: purple or green?! You gotta draw the line somewhere! To hell with purple people! Unless they're suffocating, then help 'em."
Rec’d
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Jul 8, 2011 4:54 PM EDT up reply actions
I actually
Just spent an hour researching stats, and making a fanpost on the player that is Cuddyer. It was going quite splendidly, until I got to the point of “What happens when Chipper returns from DL”. I was completely lost. I don’t think we wanna pay $10.5M this year for a guy to be a super-utility player, and IDK if he can play CF. Also, when Prado is hot, his bat needs to be in the lineup everyday, so I doubt we wanna put HIM as the SU.
Melky was a fail, but that was Melky’s fault, or the fault of Atlanta for having awesome cheeseburgers and ribs.
by Broccoman on Feb 21, 2011 4:11 PM EST
RASMUS
I just read on MLBTRADERUMORS that St. Louis might be considering trading Colby Rasmus for young pitching prospects. Who better is in a position to make that move than Atlanta?
He is under club control through 2014 and so that would solidify a CF for at least three seasons after this one. He’s only 24.
I say pull the gun. Have Nate patrol LF as long as Chipper is out with Martin manning 3B. This would make the lineup so nice.
Rasmus
Prado
Mac
Uggla
Freeman
Heyward
Gonzalez
Mclouth
PITCHER
I say other than who is on major league rotation right now and the big three relievers, make anyone else available to make this happen.
by michaeldlee1480 on Jul 12, 2011 9:12 AM EDT reply actions
Does ne one else want pence?
I see soo many people saying not to get pence? I say y not, the guy is the absolute best talent u can get at his price. Sure itll take prospects, but we got those. Im not saying throw all our pitching talent at them, just enough to entice them. A team that is rebuilding needs more than just pitching, so we dont have ro givw them only good pitching, we have a few ss 1b and of that we can offer as well. All the while getting a play er like pence who is exactly what we need. Let heyward play center when chipper gets back. Yeah, heywards not the ideal option in cf, but ill only b for what 50 or so games? Id take it, I love chip, but he wil retire nwxt year and we will b in the offseason looking for an outfielder. So y not get one now who can propel us into the world series. I think pence is arbitration eligable after 2013, so if he was to walk he would b a class A free agent and we would get back some draft picjs to repla°c e the proapects we lost to get him. But pence has only made 5 mil his entire career, his is NOT a scott boras client, so theres a good chance we could resign him especially sibce jones and lowes contracts will b off,the boks by then
Option b
Trade jair. He is awesome, but we wont b able to keep him and hanson money wise so we will lose one evenrually, y not trade the one with skyhigh trade value. If we imvolve jair in a trade it wobt take much else to get pence, who again, think we can lock up long term. Hes a bette option than bourn, who a lot of people seem to think we should get. Pence is better almost every way, and bourn IS a acott boras client, itd be harder to sign him long term IMO. Id love to see a move for a big bat like pence, much more than a safe bet like cuddyer, or no bet at all. Dont b surprised if pence is a philly if the braves dont get him, phillies are high on this guy and have shown they will make a big splash. If that hapens then how do u justify not getting him bc if he is a philly then the braves are boned. Id lo e ot if wee got hom, but who knows. P.s, sorry
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