The Atlanta Braves Have The Prospects To Acquire An Impact Hitter, And They Should Use Them To Do Just That
by gondeee on Jul 26, 2011 1:34 PM EDT
in Braves Trade News
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Go look at the latest O'Brien, or the latest Bowman, or the latest Heyman, or the latest Rosenthal, or the latest Stark, and they all have one theme pulsing through them: dunno?
No one knows what the Braves are going to do. No one knows where Carlos Beltran is going to end up. No one knows if ANY team is willing to pay the price for guys like Beltran or Hunter Pence or B.J. Upton, or any of the rumored players out there. And I keep wondering if the Braves should pay that price either.
We know the limitations on Beltran, he's a pure two-month rental with no compensation. Pence plays a position already occupied by one of the Braves top young stars, so out of position players could become an issue if he was acquired. Upton is talented, but hasn't shown that full talent the last few years, and may not be the difference maker Atlanta needs, and would cost just as much as Pence.
None of these moves seem to be quite right for the Braves, and they would likely have to give up one of their top-four pitching prospects to get any of these players. If they're going to have to give one of those prospects up for a player who might not be the right fit, why not double down and go all out for the player who is the right fit. When you look at the Braves trade history, this is more in line with what they have been willing to do. And it's what they should do this year.
The Mark Teixeira trade alone proves that the team will move a stash of prospects for a player they feel they can win with for more than one season. They proved this when they acquired Tim Hudson (for their top pitching prospect), Edgar Renteria (for their top hitting prospect), J.D. Drew (for their top pitching prospect), the list goes on, but the lesson is that Atlanta has never shied away from trading their top prospects when the player they're getting back is the player they want.
So why not go after a premier center fielder like Adam Jones or Matt Kemp, two guys who would command a Teixeira-lite package to acquire, but who would give the Braves an impact bat that they would control for a number of years to come. If the price for a rental is one premier pitching prospect, then you're already half way to the price for Jones or Kemp. Add in another top pitching prospect, or two second-tier prospects, and fill that need for a right-handed hitting center fielder for at least two years. Keep in mind that Braves General Manager Frank Wren, and many of those on his staff, came from the Baltimore Orioles front office.
Even if Atlanta gives up two prospects from the group that includes Julio Teheran, Arodys Vizcaino, Mike Minor, and Randall Delgado, they will still likely not need any of them to be full time starters until 2013, and by that time other starters in the organization will have emerged as viable Major League options.
The Braves have the prospects, but we don't yet know if they have the will to pull off a big deal. The fact is that they should. We may look back on it like we look back on the Mark Teixeira deal and wish they hadn't have done it, but if the difference between making the playoffs and not making playoffs is one more right-handed impact bat, then a deal needs to be made. Just look at that array of pitching prospects mentioned above, even if Atlanta traded away two of them, they'd still have two really great young pitchers ready to help out in the Majors.
Minor League prospects exist to help the Major League club either by ascending to the Majors with that club and becoming an everyday player, or by getting traded away to fill the needs of the Major League club. The Braves have more pitching than they can use, but they could use another hitter. They need to get that hitter, an impact bat, by trading away some of their pitching.
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Does anyone anywhere think Mike Minor will be anything more than the Braves’ 4th starter at any point? He’s a fine pitcher but the team has tremendous depth. Offer Minor for Beltran (maybe see if they throw in a reliever), plug Beltran into the second spot and rotate him in the OF depending on whoever needs a night off, and you suddenly have one of the best lineups in the NL. And just as importantly, you won’t end up facing him with the Giants or Phillies come playoff time.
by Torgo's Executive Powder on Jul 26, 2011 1:37 PM EDT reply actions
Doesn't really matter if he's the Braves 4th starter
What matters is how he compares to other MLB starters and I think he can clearly develop into a top 50 or so pitcher in all of baseball. LHP that sit 90-92 with a swing and miss change can develop into elite pitchers if they can develop something resembling an average breaking ball.
Not sure why people seem to think that Delgado has a lot more upside than Minor. They project to have a similar level of stuff overall, but Minor at least has one true swing and miss pitch while Delgado is still struggling to develop on in AA.
Would Beltran be your first choice?
I’d rather Upton, Pence, Bourn, among others to Beltran, if just because we can have them for more than just 2 months. Beltran is great, but will he reinjure himself before becomming a FA? I’d rather the chance for finding a true long term answer and not just the rental.
http://sportsandgrits.blogspot.com/
I’m all over gondee’s theme: Go all in, or fold.
"Just take out the whole Tim McCarver part of the broadcast and boom, the director has freed up a whopping 45 minutes of airtime." - Rob Iracane of Yahoo! Sports, 7/13/11
Gondee's theme?
bastard stole it from me, as I’ve been championing this cause for going on 2 years now.
http://sportsandgrits.blogspot.com/
Well, as you are aware, I subscribe to your newsletter.
"Just take out the whole Tim McCarver part of the broadcast and boom, the director has freed up a whopping 45 minutes of airtime." - Rob Iracane of Yahoo! Sports, 7/13/11
What?
the subscription check has yet to arrive in the mail. I need to speak with accounting about this, you might not get the next few issues until we get paid.
http://sportsandgrits.blogspot.com/
oooo… that neighborhood kid selling the magazines… dang, that would also explain why I’m not getting “Field & Stream” either. Okay, I’m on it.
"Just take out the whole Tim McCarver part of the broadcast and boom, the director has freed up a whopping 45 minutes of airtime." - Rob Iracane of Yahoo! Sports, 7/13/11
“I do not know anything about no money launderin’”
I thought hurricane season was over........
by bravesguy311 on Jul 26, 2011 4:22 PM EDT up reply actions
Hey... I've been on this bandwagon as well! :-D
Don’t worry about older women until you turn 22. It’s called the Saltalamacchia.
by bwellnjonesco on May 19, 2011 4:13 PM PDT
by Klemson Krash on Jul 26, 2011 5:20 PM EDT up reply actions
I'd prefer Beltran to Upton
I’d love Pence or Bourn, too, but the Astros aren’t shopping them as aggressively (or cheaply) as the Mets are with Beltran.
by Torgo's Executive Powder on Jul 26, 2011 4:48 PM EDT up reply actions
I just want you to know, sitting here at my desk at work, I out loud said “Amen!” on more than one occasion.
It was a particularly small egg...thats why I asked.
by thenightstallion on Jul 26, 2011 1:39 PM EDT reply actions
Anyone in your office ask you if suddenly got the Holy Spirit?
"Baseball is the only place in life where a sacrifice is really appreciated."
I won't lie. It caused a ruckus.
My boss is Jewish. I was better off just telling him I was goofing around on the internet.
It was a particularly small egg...thats why I asked.
by thenightstallion on Jul 26, 2011 1:41 PM EDT up reply actions
Why?
He’s not a very good player. Below average CF with a career UZR of -15.6 and boasts a mediocre career offensive line of .276/.320/.438. In other words, not only is it a crime he was mentioned in the same sentence as Matt Kemp, but he is no better than B.J. Upton.
those offensive numbers
are pretty good for a cf
Chopmaster: my link is my dad who has watched the braves since I don’t know. he’s 56.
coughJETERcough
If we can land [Stephen Drew], I will give FW a bj.
~justincredubil02
by king of games on Jul 26, 2011 3:52 PM EDT up reply actions
coughMcLouthcough
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Jul 26, 2011 3:53 PM EDT up reply actions
After all this buildup
I bet we just end up with Melky Cabrera again.
by Torgo's Executive Powder on Jul 26, 2011 1:40 PM EDT reply actions
Probably not Melky, but a “Melky-like” player? Yeah.
"Baseball is the only place in life where a sacrifice is really appreciated."
who would probably
put ‘’Melky – last year – like’’ numbers……
the exponent in the equation is a matter of preference and "fit" it can vary depending on what the user believes to yield the curve that best predicts a team’s ability to win games.
by Ivan the Great on May 20, 2011 12:31 PM VET
it's always a question of
should we try to keep the status-quo and win
or
push harder, trade some of the future for a win-now attitude.
I don’t personally know what would work best but, in Wren i Trust.
Solidify the Bullpen?
Does anyone think we should instead go after some depth in the bullpen? Not quite as exciting of a move, but we could probably give up less and get someone who will be a bigger impact than proctor/sherrill/gearin/linebrink…. Although linebrink hasnt been too bad recently.
If our current bats get hot at the right time, we have more than enough to get it done…. Look at san fran from last year
"Alright. If you won't listen to my words, then listen, to my dancing feet. Work drugs." – Kenny Powers
I still don’t see why people thinks this is an either/or. Who you would use to get a relief pitcher are not the same pieces you’d use to get a bat.
"Baseball is the only place in life where a sacrifice is really appreciated."
Maybe JUST a minor, vs. Minor + some other pieces
"Alright. If you won't listen to my words, then listen, to my dancing feet. Work drugs." – Kenny Powers
What kind of pie does Radio like?
Both.
It was a particularly small egg...thats why I asked.
by thenightstallion on Jul 26, 2011 1:46 PM EDT up reply actions
Bahahaha....
Probably the best overlooked comment of all time.
"Tripped, stumbled, deer meat went everywhere. Then he went on the DL."
by UGARedcoat13 on Jul 26, 2011 6:16 PM EDT up reply actions
Adam Jones
What would it take to get him though? Would Delgado, Minor, Hoover, and Milligan be enough? I think we have to keep Teheran and Salcedo. Other than that, go get Jones….
Wow, I think we come out of top if that’s all it took.
And it's now my sig
by Bronn on May 17, 2011 4:56 PM EDT
Ya but Beltran wants to play RF, and we have Shafer out there....
"Alright. If you won't listen to my words, then listen, to my dancing feet. Work drugs." – Kenny Powers
He was talking about Adam Jones, not Carlos Beltran. There’s no way we’d give up nearly that much for Beltran.
by ducheneaux13 on Jul 26, 2011 1:53 PM EDT up reply actions
Keepers
I think we have to keep Teheran, one of Delgado/Vizcaino, Salcedo and Pastronicky. Other than that, I say we move whats needed to be done within reason to improve this ball club.
It was a particularly small egg...thats why I asked.
by thenightstallion on Jul 26, 2011 1:45 PM EDT up reply actions
I mean heyward
"Alright. If you won't listen to my words, then listen, to my dancing feet. Work drugs." – Kenny Powers
Cards are shopping Rasmus..
http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2011/07/cardinals-shopping-rasmus-widely.html
I would much rather have him instead of the other names mentioned..IF we were willing to part with some top prospects.
by WeStillHaveBobby on Jul 26, 2011 1:50 PM EDT reply actions
I'm sorry, but what exactly make Adam Jones a significantly better option than Upton?
He’s not really any better than Upton when it comes to OBP (and is actually significantly worse over the course of his career), and while there is some disagreement among defensive rating systems over his career there seems to be agreement that he’s been below average over the past season and a half.
I’m just not seeing anything here that makes me want to give up multiple high end prospects. Now if we were talking about Kemp, then I’d probably be willing to just about go all in, but I just don’t see the big appeal with Jones.
This is what I was wondering,
Adam Jones =/= Matt Kemp.
by get swoll yunel on Jul 26, 2011 1:58 PM EDT up reply actions
I say we keep JT and Vizzy and just put out an open offer to all teams that we will part with Minor and Delgado for an impact CFer and see who comes calling.
If we can land [Stephen Drew], I will give FW a bj.
~justincredubil02
YES.
Adam Jones and Koji Uehara.
I’d legitimately say I would give Delgado/Minor/Schafer/Hoover plus any sweetening as so desired…
I really think it is a matter of no one willing to set the market...
There seems to be a definite sea-change across the League that teams are over-valuing prospects. There just aren’t that many teams so flush with money that they can afford to give away prospects they really feel will make their club with a nice, cost-controlled salary. So, everyone is waiting for another team to blink. One big deal done, and the “price” will be set and scaled for other deals this year. If I had to put money on it, FW will not be the one who sets the price (and may not want to pay the price that gets set for a major player).
"Baseball is the only place in life where a sacrifice is really appreciated."
Agree
But I wouldn’t call it a “sea-change”. As long as I remember, teams are unwilling to part with elite prospects without getting elite talent back, and there really isn’t any elite talent on the market right now. So the teams that are sellers are claiming that their player is the best on the market and hence elite. Teams that are buyers are saying that being the best on the market <> elite. Same thing happens most years – until a trade happens that sets the market, everyone is staring at each other.
A player like Jones/Kemp
Helps the team win this year and next… Keeping Teheran, Delgado, Minor and Vizcaino helps this team win over the next decade against the Strasburgs, Harpers, Sanchezes, Stantons, Johnsons, Hamels, Lees, and Halladays of the NL East
"I wasn’t thinking about it. That’s the worst celebration of all time. I didn’t know what to do. I got lost in the moment." - Brian McCann
by HansonManCrush on Jul 26, 2011 1:56 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
are you suggesting that Lee and Halladay will be feared pitchers for the next ten years?
It was a particularly small egg...thats why I asked.
by thenightstallion on Jul 26, 2011 1:57 PM EDT up reply actions
next 10 years?
let’s win now. Most of those players will either be retired or playing in pinstripes in ten years.
And we have pieces for the next several years
problem is, they are all pitchers. JJ, Hanson, Beachy, Minor, Teheran, Delgado, Vizcaino, Gillmartin, I could go on and on and on. Fact of the matter is, you can’t win on pitching ALONE. I think pitching needs to be the main focal point, as proven by the Braves during their 14 year run as division champs, but you also need a little more offense than what we have, as proven by the Braves during their 14 year run as division champs. Letting go of one or two pitching prospects to get an elite won’t jeopardize our future to the point we won’t be winning anymore. It only helps the present look as bright as the future already does.
It was a particularly small egg...thats why I asked.
by thenightstallion on Jul 26, 2011 2:05 PM EDT up reply actions
My argument had nothing to do with Jones.
It was a particularly small egg...thats why I asked.
by thenightstallion on Jul 26, 2011 2:12 PM EDT up reply actions
closer
than Jordan and McLouth combined…
He’s a Right handed bat that can hit for power. He’s also about to turn only 26. However, I don’t know how long he’s under team control. He is a definite upgrade and we probably wouldn’t have to part with our top arm.
"you can’t win on pitching ALONE"
2010 Giants disagree
They got the hitting they needed to win
Huff had a great year, Ross was a huge pick up, Posey was out extremely key, and Sanchez and Renteria played huge roles. Their pitching carried them, but they also had the hitting to do it.
It was a particularly small egg...thats why I asked.
by thenightstallion on Jul 26, 2011 2:11 PM EDT up reply actions
So you’re saying I’m right, that’s not enough? Hahaha
It was a particularly small egg...thats why I asked.
by thenightstallion on Jul 26, 2011 2:15 PM EDT up reply actions
In terms of results during the postseason
They certainly got the hitting they needed, yes. But in terms of roster construction going into the playoffs, the 2010 Giants offense was probably no better than the offense that the 2011 Braves have right now.
That being said, I’m actually on the side of dealing for a bat during this deadline. Just because the 2010 Giants showed it’s possible to win in the postseason with that level of hitting doesn’t mean it’s the best strategy going forward.
Minor's fWAR pace for 2010 & 2011
2010: 2.9 for 200 IP
2011: 4.8 for 200 IP
Also, there is 0% chance of the Braves getting Kemp. It would require a Teixeira-plus package. He’s got a higher wRC+ than Teixeira had at the deadline at a much more premium defensive position.
Exactly how many prospects does a time-machine cost?
"Baseball is the only place in life where a sacrifice is really appreciated."
ding...!
you win
the exponent in the equation is a matter of preference and "fit" it can vary depending on what the user believes to yield the curve that best predicts a team’s ability to win games.
by Ivan the Great on May 20, 2011 12:31 PM VET
There are no shortstops available that we would want. Shortstop is a sad, sad position.
by Ivan the Great on Jul 26, 2011 2:07 PM EDT up reply actions
With the Braves top pitching prospects....
I’m sure even the Mets may change their position on trading Reyes. Curveballs are making Sea bass look stupid.
by CowboyCurtis on Jul 26, 2011 2:11 PM EDT up reply actions
Not like they’re going to trade him back.
by Ivan the Great on Jul 26, 2011 2:54 PM EDT up reply actions
Hey, let us hope. I mean, if the Marlins let Uggla go for Dunn and Infante, ANYTHING is possible!
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Jul 26, 2011 2:55 PM EDT up reply actions
Just posted on MLBTR:
The Braves “will continue to evaluate the possibility of acquiring either Jon Rauch or Jason Frasor from the Blue Jays,” writes MLB.com’s Mark Bowman. Bowman notes that the Jays want a significant return for either reliever, since they both project as Type B free agents and therefore could net supplemental draft picks. Both righties also have club options for 2012 at $3.75MM, so they’re more than rentals.
The Braves’ bullpen is fourth in the NL with a 3.08 ERA, but the group also ranks third with 319 innings pitched.
If we can land [Stephen Drew], I will give FW a bj.
~justincredubil02
I like this.
It was a particularly small egg...thats why I asked.
by thenightstallion on Jul 26, 2011 2:13 PM EDT up reply actions
I like dumping Rauch/Frasor’s option and taking the compensation pick…of course, they may accept arbitration. Depends on how well they do…
Compensation probably leaves the game after this season, so it would be nice to cash in on that a couple times to get those nice picks.
-C
It’s rough to sit through these games and not have someone that can’t hit a Ball?
Rauch or Frasor and Esco for Sea Bass, Pastornicky, and Minor or Delgado?
http://sportsandgrits.blogspot.com/
YES!!!!!
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Jul 26, 2011 2:41 PM EDT up reply actions
“Return to sender”
Sadly, Esco is putting up one of the top seasons for a SS this year, so Toronto won’t let him go.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Jul 26, 2011 2:42 PM EDT up reply actions
Not to mention that insanely team friendly contract he just signed
He’s going to make something like 20 MM total over the next 4 years
Sell low, Frank. Sell low.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Jul 26, 2011 2:47 PM EDT up reply actions
Check this out
.305 .384 .445 .829 (9 HRs)
.228 .261 .338 .598 (8 HRs)
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Jul 26, 2011 2:44 PM EDT up reply actions
You got it.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Jul 26, 2011 2:47 PM EDT up reply actions
Is that the lowest OPS in the majors?
Let me check…
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Jul 26, 2011 2:50 PM EDT up reply actions
7th lowest
Behind (in order from lowest to highest):
Alex Rios
Ian Desmond
Adam Dunn
Casey McGehee
Aaron Hill (WTF happened to him???)
Orlando Cabrera
Chris Getz
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Jul 26, 2011 2:52 PM EDT up reply actions
So you were wrong again?
and he’s not the worst hitter in the bigs. Those first 5 on your list (Rios, Desmond, Dunn, McGehee, Hill) were all expected to be pretty solid players this year. Yikes.
http://sportsandgrits.blogspot.com/
Getz projected as a good player too (Not so much this year, but when Chicago first brought him up).
Seriously though – what happened to Aaron Hill???
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Jul 26, 2011 2:57 PM EDT up reply actions
He’s a career .284 BABIP, so yeah, that makes a huge difference.
But, maybe he just wasn’t that good to begin with? He’s only had 2 seasons of an OPS over .735
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Jul 26, 2011 3:01 PM EDT up reply actions
I think the concussion has had long-term effects, and the same goes for Morneau.
by ducheneaux13 on Jul 26, 2011 3:07 PM EDT up reply actions
And no, I wasn’t wrong – I asked the question and answered it myself. :D
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Jul 26, 2011 2:57 PM EDT up reply actions
Was jokin with ya...
and to be honest, glad ya checked. If you had me guessing, I’d have guessed he was the lowest too.
http://sportsandgrits.blogspot.com/
I predicted 12-14 for him this season
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Jul 26, 2011 2:54 PM EDT up reply actions
remember last year when the splits were more heavily the other way…. what’s to say Esco would be even close to those numbers on the Braves.
His career line with the Braves is .368 .403 .771
FWIW, Last season:
Yunel: .256 .337 .318 .655
Alex: .250 .294 .447 .741
I would prefer Yunel’s line any day of the week and twice on Sunday.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Jul 26, 2011 2:59 PM EDT up reply actions
Yes because .655 > .741. The Braves made the playoffs by one game last year. They don’t make it with Yunel the whole way. Gonzalez hit better with Atlanta than Yunel did in Atlanta, and according to B-R, played better defense. The Braves were pot committed in Bobby’s last year and actively valued the franchise by making the playoffs ending a drought. Also, Pastornicky is in AAA and playing well.
It was the right move to trade away Yunel.
That Heyward guy is pretty good.
by another simpsons avatar on Jul 26, 2011 3:15 PM EDT up reply actions
and a difference of 40 points is as important as a difference of 130?
http://sportsandgrits.blogspot.com/
Its actually pretty close
OBP is roughly 3 times as important as SLG
lol
you can use statistics to prove all kinds of things kent, 14% of all people know that.
http://sportsandgrits.blogspot.com/
The only thing Alex has on Yunel is power. That’s it. And this season, he doesn’t even really have him there – but that’s to be expected from a 34 year old with poor plate discipline. Yunel is in his prime, and we sold low on him because he threw a temper tantrum every now and then.
You cannot seriously say that we don’t make the playoffs with Yunel – especially when Yunel was a far more productive hitter than Alex.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Jul 26, 2011 3:19 PM EDT up reply actions
I’d rather have inconsistently good than consistently bad.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Jul 26, 2011 3:21 PM EDT up reply actions
Not trying to rehash old and worn out debates, but could you imagine how good this team would be with Escobar and KJ instead of Gonzalez and McLouth/Schafer? (Not that KJ could play CF, but just thinking offensively)
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Jul 26, 2011 3:22 PM EDT up reply actions
The guy has some character issues, but do you really think he has that in him???
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Jul 26, 2011 3:25 PM EDT up reply actions
OK, so maybe Bobby Sprewells Esco...
and he may have that in him. Or maybe a teammate would have done it. Point is, the old “change of scenery” idea is a valid one, and you can’t assume Esco’s return to form for Toronto would have happened if he stayed stuck in his rut here.
http://sportsandgrits.blogspot.com/
I don’t get this at all. The guy had 2 bad months for Atlanta. Why was that all of a sudden his standard? The only thing the he lost was power. His patience and approach were still good.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Jul 26, 2011 3:36 PM EDT up reply actions
he had more walks than K's when he left last year
Chopmaster: my link is my dad who has watched the braves since I don’t know. he’s 56.
Exactly
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Jul 26, 2011 3:38 PM EDT up reply actions
Yup. I know the guys we have no don’t have attitude problems, but we haven’t given up on Heyward, Uggla, or even Gonzo this year.
by ducheneaux13 on Jul 26, 2011 3:39 PM EDT up reply actions
Attitude-wise...
He had a couple pretty bad years in Atlanta.
-C
It’s rough to sit through these games and not have someone that can’t hit a Ball?
it’s no secret where I stand on that issue. Give me the better ball player.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Jul 26, 2011 4:51 PM EDT up reply actions
You are not
the manager, thankfully, nor do you have to work with him. Just on a surface vantage point, the guy was a douchebag. I cant even begin to imagine what it was like having to count on him to be responsible for everyday tasks that help the team get better.
On the other hand, im past the point of frustration with Gonzo.
The base paths belonged to me, the runner. The rules gave me the right. I always went into a bag full speed, feet first. I had sharp spikes on my shoes. If the baseman stood where he had no business to be and got hurt, that was his fault. -Ty Cobb
I bet if I managed a month, you would think twice about being thankful that I’m not the manager – but that’s more because of Fredi’s ineptitude than anything I would bring to the table.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Jul 26, 2011 8:12 PM EDT up reply actions
I never defended Fredi
I didnt like automatically making him manager from day one.
The base paths belonged to me, the runner. The rules gave me the right. I always went into a bag full speed, feet first. I had sharp spikes on my shoes. If the baseman stood where he had no business to be and got hurt, that was his fault. -Ty Cobb
In 2010 Alex Gonzalez had a higher wRC+, UZR, and UBR. So as long as you’re counting hitting, base running, and defense, Alex played better than Yunel. And making the playoffs with Yunel last year did not seem possible in my mind. Making the playoffs adds millions of dollars to a franchise.
That Heyward guy is pretty good.
by another simpsons avatar on Jul 26, 2011 3:29 PM EDT up reply actions
UZR for one season is ridiculously flawed. What is UBR?
Whether you seem to think it was possible or not, making far fewer outs helps a team win games, and Yunel did that better than Alex.
Finally – where are the millions of dollars that Alex added to the franchise by being the difference-maker in us making the playoffs?
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Jul 26, 2011 3:31 PM EDT up reply actions
UBR is a base running metric. (The difference between though is quite nominal). Obviously, Gonzalez was not a factor in the playoffs. What I was referring to was a study that showed how much teams earn after making the playoffs (added attendance (the last 5 games were sellouts) shared playoff revenue, tv money, boost in attendance the following seas etc.) I think that we don’t make it with Yunel the whole season. For all Yunel’s bat that we sorely missed, he put up -1.5 wins in WPA for Atlanta last year. Gonzalez improved upon that in a shorter time frame (in a shorter timeframe, of course) with a better “Clutch” rating from FanGraphs. Gonzalez played better than Yunel for Atlanta last year, which helped them make the playoffs by the slimmest of margins.
That Heyward guy is pretty good.
by another simpsons avatar on Jul 26, 2011 3:43 PM EDT up reply actions
We don't get credit for what Gonzo did with the Blue Jays though
Yunel put up a 93 wRC+ with 1.0 WAR after we dealt him, while Alex put up just a 78 wRC+ for us along with 0.7 WAR
Comparing the two is not a remotely useful activity, in terms of statistics. You’re looking at a world of differences. Different ballparks, different pitchers, different spots in the batting order, etc.
Needless to say, Yunel had run his course with the Braves. That was why the trade was made, not to acquire Alex Gonzalez.
-C
It’s rough to sit through these games and not have someone that can’t hit a Ball?
the thing is
Yunel can take walks Gonzalez has never been able to take walks Gonzos best OBP ever was .325 Yunel put up a .337 OBP last year his worst year in the majors
And Gonzo was doing great in Toronto. Get over it I bet you say this to people who complain about the Tex trade so don’t complain about it yourself
Shrimp, Steak, Liquor, and Pasta
.
You do realize that he was pitiful for 2 months, but absolutely terrific for 3 years? You also realize that he is one of the top 2 shortstops in MLB this year, second only to Tulo, right?
And no, I don’t say “Get over it” to anyone over anything, really. Mainly because this is a blog on the internet – if we can’t talk about things here, where can we talk about them?
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Jul 26, 2011 8:14 PM EDT up reply actions
.347 .439 .545 .984
.268 .332 .358 .690
Home/away splits for Yunel. Somehow I’m not convinced he’d be all that much better than gonzo if he had stayed in ATL.
"He knows where he's throwing. If he didn't, there'd be dead bodies strewn all over Idaho." - Washington Senators scout on Walter Johnson
That road OBP is 60 points higher than what Gonzalez is giving us and his OPS is nearly 100 points higher. Basically, yes, even with his “terrible” road splits, he is better than Gonzalez this year,
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Jul 26, 2011 8:14 PM EDT up reply actions
Yes, he is better
But if Yunel really was a problem guy in the clubhouse…100 OPS points isnt so much.
"He knows where he's throwing. If he didn't, there'd be dead bodies strewn all over Idaho." - Washington Senators scout on Walter Johnson
Even if he was a problem in the clubhouse, 100 OPS points is a lot.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Jul 27, 2011 4:07 AM EDT up reply actions
What is that?
An extra 20 hits? If he’s making everyone else miserable, no thanks.
"He knows where he's throwing. If he didn't, there'd be dead bodies strewn all over Idaho." - Washington Senators scout on Walter Johnson
20 hits is a lot. It’s also 20 fewer outs, which would be even a bigger deal. That’s almost an entire game’s worth of outs.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Jul 27, 2011 12:42 PM EDT up reply actions
Agree to disagree.
"He knows where he's throwing. If he didn't, there'd be dead bodies strewn all over Idaho." - Washington Senators scout on Walter Johnson
trade
If the Braves don’t do something fast they may loose the wildcard. Heyward should be sent down for a couple of weeks and get his stuff together. Carlos Quintin should be the inpact bat they go after. I don’t think they need to aquire pitching, bring up young arms and use them in relief, occasional start etc.
No they won’t. You basically have AZ and four NL Central teams in the mix. The D-Backs don’t have the pitching, and the other four will cancel each other out. The Mets have almost no shot of gettting back into it, so the Braves’ chances are pretty stellar at the moment.
This week is a blip on the radar. There’s no reason to begin worrying about losing the wildcard unless injuries rear their ugly heads again.
-C
It’s rough to sit through these games and not have someone that can’t hit a Ball?
by cthabeerman on Jul 26, 2011 2:35 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
Yep, this. Should have mentioned it, as it relegated Aybar to my fantasy team…
-C
It’s rough to sit through these games and not have someone that can’t hit a Ball?
As I had Drew as well...
let’s be honest, it’s not like he wasn’t begging to be dumped anyway.
http://sportsandgrits.blogspot.com/
I don't know
Anything can happen . I think I would be a little worried if we didn"t make a trade . This Pittsburgh team is playing good baseball . And those other teams you mentioned , if they go out and make a deal , who knows what happens . Especially if we don’t make a move .
Jon Heyman:
price slowly coming down on beltran. they’re off Minor, D. Brown, Wheeler, etc now.
If we can get him for any of our 4 pitchers or Bethancourt, do it immediately
Which 4?
If we can land [Stephen Drew], I will give FW a bj.
~justincredubil02
by king of games on Jul 26, 2011 2:22 PM EDT up reply actions
I'm guessing
Hoover, Oberholtzer, Clemens, or Spruill. I’d try to build a deal around Hoover or Spruill, but we’ll see what happens.
by OrangeBravo on Jul 26, 2011 2:38 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
As they continue to search for a right-handed reliever, the Braves plan to promote Vizcaino to Triple-A Gwinnett soon. They want to see how the strong-armed 20-year-old hurler reacts to pitching on a regular basis as a reliever. If he passes the tests, there is certainly a chance he could be promoted to the Majors for the season’s final month.
I like this
I’d take Vizcaino in the bullpen over just about any option through trade
I had a dream that we traded for Rasmus last night
I woke up this morning pretty disappointed. I think all of this trade talk is starting to mess with my head.
I dreamt last year that we traded JJ for either Aramis Ramirez or D-Lee. I knew in the dream who we got, but when I woke up I wasn’t really sure anymore, so I like to wax clairvoyant and say that I envisioned the Derrick Lee trade months in advance.
by swainzy on Jul 26, 2011 2:57 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
My dream involved a warehouse in the middle of nowhere with a crazy-looking guy that had a shotgun and no ammo. Kept running back and forth to his house.
"Just take out the whole Tim McCarver part of the broadcast and boom, the director has freed up a whopping 45 minutes of airtime." - Rob Iracane of Yahoo! Sports, 7/13/11
I think...
…It boils down to the fact that we will not move Teheran and everyone offering up a young, talented CF expects him in return. We could do Bourn for less, but he is a lefty. We could grab Beltran, but he wants to remain in RF.
I’m thinking we grab a cheap reliever so the front office can say they did something. I think I’d be fine with that as I hate rentals. I also don’t want our homegrown talent winning pennants for other teams in the near future while the player we received jumps ship for a better contract the first chance he gets.
In a perfect world
We trade Minor + B level prospect for either Upton or Beltran, then look for a reasonable reliever on the market, we’ll have Moylan back soon, and then call up Teheran to bolster down the bullpen.
At this point
Minor alone might fetch Beltran.
From MLBTR:
An executive from a team that has expressed interest in Beltran told Joel Sherman of the New York Post, “They are not getting a top-40-ranked prospect for Beltran even if they eat all the money [left on his contract].”
In a rational world, Minor + a prospect besides is too much for Beltran.
-C
It’s rough to sit through these games and not have someone that can’t hit a Ball?
And...
Minor himself is also too much.
-C
It’s rough to sit through these games and not have someone that can’t hit a Ball?
Parnell isn't getting moved
Isringhaused might be
It’s just not going to happen. I’m fairly certain the Braves are dead-set against giving any of their top four to an in-house rival.
-C
It’s rough to sit through these games and not have someone that can’t hit a Ball?
And I can see that...
but with the way the Mets have bungled every pitching prospect they’ve had for 20+ year, I would be tempted to press my luck. No whammies!
http://sportsandgrits.blogspot.com/
100%, Gondee. 100%
I would go a bit farther to say this though – why limit ourselves to CF? I would dangle prospects in front of team with top tier SS – like Tulo (I would do Teheran+ for Tulo in a heartbeat) or Reyes.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Jul 26, 2011 2:35 PM EDT reply actions
Tulo just signed that insane extension
He’s not going anywhere for a long, long, long, long, long, long time.
Never say never. Everyone has a price – and for Tulo or someone of his caliber, FW should be willing to pay whatever that price is.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Jul 26, 2011 2:38 PM EDT up reply actions
Just not going to happen
Taking on that sort of long term commitment is probably something Liberty would have to approve and the Rockies wouldn’t have made that sort of commitment unless they were completely committed to him long term. No one would ever want to sign a long term extension with them again without getting a no trade clause. Not to mention their asking price would probably start with at least 3 of our top 4 pitchers.
I’m cool with that asking price.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Jul 26, 2011 2:45 PM EDT up reply actions
Heyward, Jurrjens, Teheran, and Freeman
too much? Cause that would be their asking point or something similar.
http://sportsandgrits.blogspot.com/
They wouldn’t ask that much. Heyward still has a chance to be the best player in the game, JJ is one of the best pitchers, Teheran is one of the best prospects, and Freeman is the best offensive rookie. I highly doubt that Colorado would demand that much for one of the best SS.
Maybe 2 of those 4?
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Jul 26, 2011 2:46 PM EDT up reply actions
They'd ask for enough where we'd immediately turn it down
This is one of the more insane ideas I’ve ever seen
At least 2, if not 3 of those 4.
Tulo is pretty special man. Name another SS right now that seems even close in terms of bat and glove over the next 5 years? Hanley, no glove. Andrus, no bat. Tulo with his bat and glove at a premium position unlike anyone else would demand an insane price, and I’d think at least 3 of those 4, plus more bit pieces. He’d make Teixiera’s price look like a pittance.
http://sportsandgrits.blogspot.com/
Escobar?
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Jul 26, 2011 2:49 PM EDT up reply actions
About half the HRs though.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Jul 26, 2011 2:49 PM EDT up reply actions
Like Andrus...
the bat is a far cry from Tulo. Gloves may be similar, but Tulo is generally gonna be 30+ points better in obp and 50-100 points better in slg. Escobar, when healthy and motivated, is probably the closest 2nd depending on Hanley’s glove, and a couple others like Alexei Ramirez and Elvis Andrus, but in terms of complete package and star caliber package, no one is on Tulo’s level. I’m thinking of him like the SS version of Utley the last 5 years. Some good ones, but no one close to him.
http://sportsandgrits.blogspot.com/
I don’t think Yunel is on his level, but I think he’s as close as anyone. The only thing Tulo has on Yunel this year are the HRs, but I’ll take a gap-hitting Yunel and be happy with it.
I agree though. Tulo:SS::Utely:2B
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Jul 26, 2011 2:54 PM EDT up reply actions
But Yunel is having a career best season...
and Tulo a career worst. Although for just this season, Yunel may be the best SS in the bigs.
http://sportsandgrits.blogspot.com/
Reyes. I hate him as much as anyone, but he’s killing the SS position.
-C
It’s rough to sit through these games and not have someone that can’t hit a Ball?
I keep saying he's a closet rosterbator,...
I’ve been on the give up two of the elite young arms for a big young bat meme for going on 2 years now. He’s not Steve Allen, but he’s stealing my bit!!!!
http://sportsandgrits.blogspot.com/
nvm
its a seven year deal lol, but its still pretty hefty
Worth every penny.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Jul 27, 2011 4:08 AM EDT up reply actions
From MLBTF
The Braves “will continue to evaluate the possibility of acquiring either Jon Rauch or Jason Frasor from the Blue Jays,” writes MLB.com’s Mark Bowman. Bowman notes that the Jays want a significant return for either reliever, since they both project as Type B free agents and therefore could net supplemental draft picks. Both righties also have club options for 2012 at $3.75MM, so they’re more than rentals.
The Braves’ bullpen is fourth in the NL with a 3.08 ERA, but the group also ranks third with 319 innings pitched.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Jul 26, 2011 2:38 PM EDT reply actions
*MLBTR
Not MLBTF
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Jul 26, 2011 2:39 PM EDT up reply actions
Some one added that earlier, but it makes me wonder….
What is a “significant return” for a reliever? Maybe one of the near ready AAA relievers in Gwinnett? A lower level B prospect?
"Baseball is the only place in life where a sacrifice is really appreciated."
Matt Capps got the Nationals a top 50 caliber prospect
in Wilson Ramos, the C from the Twins last year.
http://sportsandgrits.blogspot.com/
Ramos had also lost value due to being blocked and a poor minor league season.
If we can land [Stephen Drew], I will give FW a bj.
~justincredubil02
by king of games on Jul 26, 2011 2:55 PM EDT up reply actions
he was still top 50 in that mid season BA ranking if I'm not mistaken...
and represents a pretty substantial cost for a less than dominant reliever like Capps.
http://sportsandgrits.blogspot.com/
Capps had another year of arbitration and closed games (as stupid as that is, it mattered a lot to the Twins). They aren’t going to get anywhere near a top 50 for either of those guys. Mike Adams would, though.
I think you’re probably looking at a top 15-20 prospect from the system, but not much more than that. I think top 10 would be really pushing it from an organization as deep as ours, but I suppose that may be possible.
-C
It’s rough to sit through these games and not have someone that can’t hit a Ball?
For a Rauch or Frasor?
I’d think a Hoover could do it, a second tier pitching prospect.
http://sportsandgrits.blogspot.com/
WTF, Buster?
In Tuesday’s blog, ESPN The Magazine’s Buster Olney says the Reds would be a perfect fit for Beltran, but adds that Cincinnati is not currently involved in the talks.
This is why I dislike Buster Olney. He flat out makes crap up.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Jul 26, 2011 2:41 PM EDT reply actions
If Minaya was still around...
Wright and Beltran for Chapman would already be done.
http://sportsandgrits.blogspot.com/
I would be willing to give up quite a bit for David Wright. Prado, Viz and Minor? More? Less?
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Jul 26, 2011 2:48 PM EDT up reply actions
Not me...
his last 3 seasons, while still solid, have taken a lot of luster off his star to me.
http://sportsandgrits.blogspot.com/
and were combined with a multitude of injuries...
forgive me for thinking the former Met is now damaged goods, but there’s medical issues over the years would make me think he’ll never be as good as he was.
http://sportsandgrits.blogspot.com/
I should add that this came from the ESPN “Rumors” section – they are selling it as a rumor. That’s just dishonest.
Beltran would be a good fit on about 25 MLB teams. Why single out the Reds like that?
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Jul 26, 2011 2:46 PM EDT up reply actions
Per Bowman:
Updating updated blog: Vizcaino to Triple-A expected to be announced today.
"Baseball is the only place in life where a sacrifice is really appreciated."
good move...
if healthy, he will be in the pen come September. I’d assume they are waiting until he’s ready to dump Proctor and clear Viz’s spot on the 25 and 40 man rosters.
http://sportsandgrits.blogspot.com/
Solution
Heyward = be last year’s Heyward
Uggla/Freeman/Mac/Prado = stop listening to Parrish
Chip = take better vitamins.
Gonzalez = get on roids.
Schafer = stop K’ing.
Moylan = come in ready to go!
Done.
by murph35 on Jul 26, 2011 2:51 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
Roids won’t help his awful approach. Doesn’t matter how far/hard he can hit it if he never hits it.
by Ivan the Great on Jul 26, 2011 2:57 PM EDT up reply actions
Guess what's on HBOF???
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Jul 26, 2011 3:03 PM EDT reply actions
lol – yeah. I’m going to go to work in a few hours, but I’m definitely home right now.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Jul 26, 2011 3:06 PM EDT up reply actions
Where did we put the wheelbarrow the albino had?
On top of the albino I think.
http://sportsandgrits.blogspot.com/
You don’t look too good….you don’t smell too good either.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Jul 26, 2011 3:23 PM EDT up reply actions
Beat it, or I’ll call the Brute Squad!
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Jul 26, 2011 3:26 PM EDT up reply actions
You are the Brute Squad
and you didn’t go with the changes. disappoint. Did you not recognize it? You are way less fun than Beard, that bastard.
http://sportsandgrits.blogspot.com/
I’ve never seen Trading Places….should I?
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Jul 26, 2011 3:37 PM EDT up reply actions
Really? Disappointed even more
yes, all 80s Murphy is a must. Coming to America, Trading Places, Beverly Hills Cop 1 and 2, 48 Hours.
http://sportsandgrits.blogspot.com/
Also include...
his stand up Delirious and Raw. Also, The Golden Child, and any of his SNL stuff (Mr Robinson’s Neighborhood or Gumby especially). Also, Harlem Nights is a good one, although I bet the off camera stuff was solid gold (Murphy, Foxx, and Pryor, among others, you know there had to be some amazing outtakes).
http://sportsandgrits.blogspot.com/
Trading Places
Don't kiss an ass if it's in the process of shitting on you.
"…aren’t worthy enough to hold his (Pujols) ass cheeks apart while Playboy models wipe him with thousand dollar bills after he craps out the cure to whatever previously-incurable disease." by royhobbs 1/7/09
Why does everyone want Adam Jones???
You really want to give up top prospects for a career slash of .276/.320/.438? I just don’t see why everyone has this misconception that he is the answer to all of our problems. We have a few glaring holes that can be plugged with 1 trade. We need a leadoff hitter, and we need a CF. Sounds more like we need Denard Span, who may be cheaper than Jones anyways because his name is not Adam Jones. None of this, of course, takes care of the biggest problem..DFA PROCTOR =).
Because he has improved year to year, is only 25 years old, and is putting up a line of .286 .327 .487 .813 this season.
He is not yet in his prime and has a chance to be one of the top OFers in the game, if his career trends continue.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Jul 26, 2011 3:13 PM EDT up reply actions
I'm looking at the trends....
Last 3 years, OBP .335, .325, .327. He is not trending upward thats for sure. So he can hit some HRs, where he has had a big spike. Players have those spikes all the time, that’s no reason to believe he has all of the sudden become one of the top OFs in the game. We would be buying high on someone who has never proved to be one of the top OFs.
That would depend on what you mean by “buying high” on him. If it’s Minor and change, I don’t consider that a steep price at all.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Jul 26, 2011 3:33 PM EDT up reply actions
Tell me if I'm wrong...
But it seems to me that BJ Upton and Adam Jones are basically the same player. Upton the better fielder, Jones the better hitter, but basically a wash as a total package. The only difference is that Upton is trending down and Jones is trending up. Plus the alleged attitude problems that Upton carries, I suppose.
INTEL CONFIRMS FRANCHISE ATL SHALL ACQUIRE LEGENDHUMAN FAVRE BRETT TO REPLACE MCCLOUTH NATE & GUNSLING LASERBALLS FROM CENTERFIELD OUTPOST
Even a cyborg has trouble spelling Nate’s last name right.
Twitter: @TAlmeyda
per Jon Heyman:
early guess (and this is a guess), between #sfgiants and #braves, 1 team gets beltran, other gets upton. #trade deadline
"Baseball is the only place in life where a sacrifice is really appreciated."
I’d be happy with Beltran if he’d be willing to play CF. I don’t know about Upton, though.
Twitter: @TAlmeyda
Really going out on a limb there, Heyman.
"Jason Heyward was a Greek philosopher reincarnated as a baseball player." - Don Sutton
So why not go after a premier center fielder like Adam Jones or Matt Kemp, two guys who would command a Teixeira-lite package to acquire, but who would give the Braves an impact bat that they would control for a number of years to come.
What?
Adam Jones is not that good. He hacks away at the plate like his name is Jeff Francoeur and never takes a walk. His BA/OBP/SLG are all heavily influenced and improved by playing in Camden and his average UZR the last three years is -8.1.
Matt Kemp is a hell of a hitter, but he’s going to be a corner outfielder within a year or two. Love his bat, but he’s 1) not even on the trade market and 2) not a center fielder of the future.
As of today, I say it’s either Beltran, Bourn or bust. I don’t want anyone else.
"It's not about me, it's about the team." - Martin Prado
Twitter: @scottcoleman55
Why no love for Pence...
he could play CF as well as Beltran, or at least better than Nate. Or for Upton, among other reported OF targets.
http://sportsandgrits.blogspot.com/
Slowly warming up to him, but he’s going to be an above-average corner outfielder (who can occasionally play center) for the next two years and two months while he’s under contract. He’ll make about $20-25M in that span. For the price of both the contract and the prospects we’d have to send to Houston, I don’t think it’s worth it.
"It's not about me, it's about the team." - Martin Prado
Twitter: @scottcoleman55
by Scott Coleman on Jul 26, 2011 3:27 PM EDT up reply actions
If the prospect is Minor most notably...
I can live with that. But then maybe I’m letting roy’s recent Minor = Jojo idea creep on me.
http://sportsandgrits.blogspot.com/
Pence is a stud
But I am pretty against the idea of forcing someone to play a new position during a playoff race. The learning curve for CF could adversely affect his offensive production. We really need to focus on CFs. Beltran knows the position, but I am pretty iffy on him too. Giving up any prospects within the division for 2 months and no compensation just spells disaster to me. Not to mention the high injury risk. Of course if he stays healthy he greatly improves the world series chances, but that is the only way this is successful. Pretty big risk IMO.
free swinger with 25 HR power. OBP based mostly on average and BABIP as he doesn’t take many walks. Good contact hitter though so expect a lot of balls in play, so even a lower than average BABIP results in reasonable production. Defensively solid at the corners, could play average CF.
What was wrong with Frenchy’s attitude? He was a great clubhouse guy. His one real hiccup was when he took offense to being sent down to AAA for a week. But besides that, great attitude all around. That was never his problem.
He was arrogant and stubborn, refusing to listen to advice and taking exception to when the team sent him down to AAA.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Jul 26, 2011 3:52 PM EDT up reply actions
Seriously?
they chose AA over AAA because he was more comfortable with their staff and had a close relationship with their manager or hitting coach (if not both).
http://sportsandgrits.blogspot.com/
I was half joking and trying to defend Frenchy a little….Really a pointless thing to point out to me, my point was he was demoted from the majors, I don’t care what league he went to or for what reason. Some people handle it professionally like McLouth, some people are caught off guard and might not handle it as well. He was still well liked by the whole clubhouse, and his attitude sat well with the fans. It was his inability to hit a baseball that was his biggest problem
Sorry, the joking didn't come through the screen
agreed with what you said.
http://sportsandgrits.blogspot.com/
I would not assume for a second he could play average CF defense
He hasn’t even been average in RF over the past two seasons.
But McLouth doesn't cost prospects and 10+ million going forward
Besides there are other options that actually play CF already
I didnt realize that. I see on fangraphs that he played 844 innings at CF and was average. If he could play average CF with minimal adjustment then I like the idea a lot more.
because being an MLB OF is such a nuanced task...
that sliding over 100 feet or so from RF to CF is like asking a podiatrist to try heart surgery.
http://sportsandgrits.blogspot.com/
Its completely different reading the ball off the bat from each position
Pence probably hasn’t taken a flyball in CF in 4 years
You don’t know that. It’s more than possible he takes practice reps in CF frequently just in case. Not sure what their depth chart for CF looks like, but he’s probably on it somewhere.
If we can land [Stephen Drew], I will give FW a bj.
~justincredubil02
by king of games on Jul 26, 2011 3:55 PM EDT up reply actions
Considering he hasn't played an inning there in 4 years
I’m not sure why he’d be wasting time taking FBs there on the off chance he would be traded
How about the off chance Bourn and another goes down...
and he’s playing CF for the Astros? It’s not a stretch to think he’d get in work there from time to time as injury insurance, if just for a game situation if not longer should Bourn or the other CF they had who wasn’t MLB caliber were on the DL.
http://sportsandgrits.blogspot.com/
Bourn doesn't play 162 games a year
Pence still hasn’t logged an inning out there.
Still doesn’t mean he never practices there.
If we can land [Stephen Drew], I will give FW a bj.
~justincredubil02
by king of games on Jul 26, 2011 4:09 PM EDT up reply actions
Pitchers shag flies in CF….why wouldn’t an OF do the same?
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Jul 26, 2011 4:14 PM EDT up reply actions
even in highschool
all the OF would go to center on occasion and the coach would hit fungos to us
Chopmaster: my link is my dad who has watched the braves since I don’t know. he’s 56.
No reading the ball off the bat is competely different
I can tell you’ve never played OF at a serious level
It is different, but there are tons of other factors as well. I actually think that Heyward’s superior straightaway makes him a viable CF candidate as well.
Sgt.: Pointed stick? Oh, oh, oh. We want to learn how to defend ourselves against pointed sticks, do we? Getting all high and mighty, eh? Fresh fruit not good enough for you eh? Well I'll tell you something my lad. When you're walking home tonight and some great homicidal maniac comes after you with a bunch of loganberries, don't come crying to me! Now, the passion fruit.
I can tell you are full of it
Sliding from RF to CF is not some impossible adjustment. It’s freaking baseball not surgery.
http://sportsandgrits.blogspot.com/
Didn't say it was impossible
And I’m not the only person telling you its harder than you think
And you think I think it's how hard?
I didn’t say it’d be easy and without any issue, but it’s not a factor to really take in to consideration if the price is right. The man can play CF if need be, and do it better than some of the guys who’ve logged a helluva lot of innings there the last two years. Pence in CF is a non-issue.
http://sportsandgrits.blogspot.com/
The question is if he's the best option to trade for
Not if he’s better than one guy hopefully won’t play anymore after the deadline and another guy who is no longer with the franchise.
You’re acting like he can go straight to CF and immediately be capable there. I think he’ll go to CF and be somewhat better than McLouth, but still among the worst defensive CF in baseball.
His bat would be better than Bourn, Upton, or any option aside from Beltran...
he’s healthier than Beltran, and controlled past just the next two months. IMO, he’s the best option out there not taking price in to consideration. Pence is a better fit than anyone else, Bourn, Upton, Beltran, Gomes, among others mentioned.
http://sportsandgrits.blogspot.com/
How is he a better fit than Bourn?
Simply because he’s right handed? Bourn’s going to give you a little less offensive value while providing a ton more defensive value.
Better fit because
we suck so bad vs LHP, but I would like either
Chopmaster: my link is my dad who has watched the braves since I don’t know. he’s 56.
He’s a better fit because he is an impact bat. If you replace one of your worst places of offensive production with what would be one of the best on your team then you have greatly improved your club.
Sgt.: Pointed stick? Oh, oh, oh. We want to learn how to defend ourselves against pointed sticks, do we? Getting all high and mighty, eh? Fresh fruit not good enough for you eh? Well I'll tell you something my lad. When you're walking home tonight and some great homicidal maniac comes after you with a bunch of loganberries, don't come crying to me! Now, the passion fruit.
i think you are severely
overestimating the damage he would allow in CF, he would be league average
Chopmaster: my link is my dad who has watched the braves since I don’t know. he’s 56.
He's league average in RF
Of course he’ll be worse in CF
to the amount he would be hurting us
more than his bat would help? We are already dealing with a CF who is way below league average and he hasn’t cost us too many runs defensively
Chopmaster: my link is my dad who has watched the braves since I don’t know. he’s 56.
No not more than it would help
Like I said, he’d just give back a lot of the offensive improvement he might provide (and I don’t consider McLouth because he shouldn’t play over Schafer anyway.
i'd have to disagree
I don’t think he would give up that much defensively, and offensively he would provide so much more
Chopmaster: my link is my dad who has watched the braves since I don’t know. he’s 56.
The numbers disagree with you
I’ll just leave it at that.
The numbers that say he's average in RF
And say that CF is roughly 10 runs tougher to play than RF
maybe over a course of a season
but over 50 games? doubt it. Also do his offensive upgrade over what we run out there now would be much greater than what he would cost
Chopmaster: my link is my dad who has watched the braves since I don’t know. he’s 56.
And his arm is also a plus and would be top 3 in the game at CF which is a rarity for CF which would cut into that 10 runs.
Sgt.: Pointed stick? Oh, oh, oh. We want to learn how to defend ourselves against pointed sticks, do we? Getting all high and mighty, eh? Fresh fruit not good enough for you eh? Well I'll tell you something my lad. When you're walking home tonight and some great homicidal maniac comes after you with a bunch of loganberries, don't come crying to me! Now, the passion fruit.
No it wouldn't
The arm is already figured into his defensive ratings for RF. If anything, because he derives quite a bit of value from it and it will be used less in CF, it makes it more likely that he would transition at worse than -10 runs.
And since RFers traditionally have stronger arms than CFers (and are expected to) the fact that his arm is elite for a RF would make it more valuable.
And though it was 4 years ago, the difference between his performance in CF and RF in 2007 was about a run.
Sgt.: Pointed stick? Oh, oh, oh. We want to learn how to defend ourselves against pointed sticks, do we? Getting all high and mighty, eh? Fresh fruit not good enough for you eh? Well I'll tell you something my lad. When you're walking home tonight and some great homicidal maniac comes after you with a bunch of loganberries, don't come crying to me! Now, the passion fruit.
No because CF are required to throw less
Giving them fewer opportunities to save runs with their arms
fielding metrics are a crap shoot at best
and have him from average to well above average.
http://sportsandgrits.blogspot.com/
RH run producer...
and my opinion is that his offense will make up for the defensive loss between the two, plus he’d be a better fit long term should Schafer win back CF allowing Prado to take 3B when Chipper’s knees gives out. He gives more of what we lack, which is offense not defense, especially if Schafer can ever get on track.
Bourn is little more than a two year stop gap while we figure out if Schafer is a long term answer. Pence could be a decade long fixture in LF making for an amazingly productive pair of OF corners both offensively and defensively.
http://sportsandgrits.blogspot.com/
Decade long fixture?
I’m just going to step away after that comment. He’s already 28 and showing signs of starting to decline. He’s a nice corner OF, but considering his price, he’s not a good deal for the next two years and he’s sure to get overpaid in free agency.
Guess we’ll just disagree.
What signs of decline? He is remarkably consistent in both performance and playing time.
Sgt.: Pointed stick? Oh, oh, oh. We want to learn how to defend ourselves against pointed sticks, do we? Getting all high and mighty, eh? Fresh fruit not good enough for you eh? Well I'll tell you something my lad. When you're walking home tonight and some great homicidal maniac comes after you with a bunch of loganberries, don't come crying to me! Now, the passion fruit.
Strikeouts up and power down
Not a good sign for a player exiting his prime age years. Certainly not someone I would expect to even be above average 5-6 years from now.
His power is not down at all and is in fact right there with his career average.
His strikeouts can be partly attributed to him becoming a star player in an otherwise dismal lineup. He is probably trying to hard to produce since he knows he is one of the only ones who will.
Bourn’s numbers are also unsustainable by the same merit unless you concede that they are both having career years.
Sgt.: Pointed stick? Oh, oh, oh. We want to learn how to defend ourselves against pointed sticks, do we? Getting all high and mighty, eh? Fresh fruit not good enough for you eh? Well I'll tell you something my lad. When you're walking home tonight and some great homicidal maniac comes after you with a bunch of loganberries, don't come crying to me! Now, the passion fruit.
Pence is doing everything he can to
win games for Houston and is probably pressing a bit honestly. He’s having to manufacture runs for the Stros since Carlos “El Gordo” Lee is no longer providing any kind of protection hitting behind Pence. just last night Pence took a ball low and away and shot it into RF for a base hit. He’s doing everything he can to get on base and drive in runs for this horrible team. If you put Pence the Braves’ lineup (you could put Pence in LF and let Heyward stay in RF) you guys will see his numbers increase after he settles in a bit.
So you're saying bench Prado or Chipper
The only opening the Braves have for a player is CF.
But hey Pence shot a ball the other way, so he must be one of the best players in baseball right now.
What are you talking about
His ISO is a career low right, 17 points lower than it has ever been before.
I don’t buy that playing in a mediocre lineup with no pressure suddenly makes it harder to hit and in no way is it worse (or is he suddenly better and a star) than the past few years.
I never said Bourn’s numbers were completely sustainable but its not that out of line with his last 2 years. I also don’t think he’s necessarily the answer either as I prefer Upton.
Doesn’t look like it matters anyway as recent reports have the Braves showing no interest in Pence.
You are correct, sir!
If we can land [Stephen Drew], I will give FW a bj.
~justincredubil02
by king of games on Jul 26, 2011 4:08 PM EDT up reply actions
yeah
the ball slices and cuts differently depending on rhb/lhb as well as where it was hit
Chopmaster: my link is my dad who has watched the braves since I don’t know. he’s 56.
Differently, sure...
but not to the extent that the guy can’t do it anymore. Pence was a CF, he’s slid 100 feet to his right and remained healthy so it’s not like he’s lost a step. To think he can’t slide back that same 100 feet and still catch the ball is absolutely asinine. He might take a couple days to adjust, but it ain’t some monumental task he can’t do. It’s different reads off the bat, but it’s still reads off the bat same as he has been since day 1. He’s a MLB OF, and a good one at that. We’re not talking some psuedo DH like Adam Dunn, Carlos Lee or Josh Willingham. The guy is a good fielder and can make the move without issue, and would certainly be better in CF than McLouth or Melky have been the last 2 years.
http://sportsandgrits.blogspot.com/
He's an average corner OF
Yeah, he can play CF, just like any ML OF, but that doesn’t mean he’ll be anything better than well below average out there. Just seems like a better idea to get an actual CF.
How many CFs have his bat?
He’d be as good a fit as Matt Kemp, both offensively and defensively, and is actually obtainable.
http://sportsandgrits.blogspot.com/
You’ve said this several times, but he’s put up 5.5 UZR/150 on average in RF. That’s better than average.
-C
It’s rough to sit through these games and not have someone that can’t hit a Ball?
I weight more recent performance more than 3 years ago
He’s at -5.0 this year in UZR/150, after posting a 1.3 last year, and a 11.6 in 2009. He’s also done just awful in TZL, which is pretty worrying for me.
Man, I wish I could just choose to use stats how I wished instead of remaining objective. Objectivity is a bitch.
-C
It’s rough to sit through these games and not have someone that can’t hit a Ball?
And, honestly, if you’re not going to use the statistics in a manner consistent with how they’re intended to be interpreted, on purpose, that’s arguing dishonestly.
How can I, or anyone else, trust that any number you post isn’t shaped by your own admitted biases now??
Don’t get me wrong, you’ve had some valid points mixed into this mess you’ve made, but others are far from certain. I shouldn’t have to look up every stat you’ve posted for accuracy in order to have a discussion with you.
If you intend, in the future, to go against the grain and evaluate statistics by a different means, for fuck’s sake, be honest about it. Notate how and why you’ve made these changes in evaluation before you get called on it.
Also, you can’t simply toss in a partial season as if it’s a done-deal and not subject to change, especially when the proper sample size for any sort of evaluation is 3 years long. Feel free to factor it in, but do it honestly.
So, Pence’s hard-and-fast UZR/150 (I didn’t actually factor out exactly because innings for 08-09-10 are almost identical) for the past three seasons is really 8.3, with a trend that is downward in nature. That’s not exactly just average.
But way to cut the SS by more a full year in one direction and adding in a partial sample as if it were full in the other, just to suit your argument.
Clearly, discussing anything of this nature in the future should fall under “Buyer Beware.” Hope proving your (invalid) point was worth it.
-C
It’s rough to sit through these games and not have someone that can’t hit a Ball?
Yep keep basing current defensive evaluations on 2008-2009
See how that works out for you…you’re clearly the smartest man in the room…no one would ever place more emphasis on recent numbers than numbers from a few years ago…Bill James certainly doesn’t do it in his Fielding Bible voting…jackass
I’m not the smartest in the room, but I don’t evaluate players using dishonest means.
It’s a simple courtesy thing that’s obviously lost on you and it makes your opinion on just about anything suspect.
If you can’t argue honestly, then what’s the point?? All you do is tarnish others’ opinion of your insight.
-C
It’s rough to sit through these games and not have someone that can’t hit a Ball?
Need a reason why...
not to use UZR mid-season??
Take a quick look at Jordan Schafer’s UZR. It’s @ 1.8. Yesterday, it was 4.1. He didn’t even play last nite, but the stat isn’t updated everyday.
Taking out a year’s worth of sample size and adding in a partial that has not had enough time to normalize is not a good plan statistically.
-C
It’s rough to sit through these games and not have someone that can’t hit a Ball?
Except Jordan has played roughly half the games this year that Pence has
Oh I caught you in a lie now…You’re dishonest and your comments have lost all meaning…HAHAAHAH….I WINZZZZ
I’m placing less weight on old numbers because we have a year and half of data saying they are no longer correct. If we were talking about a young guy, maybe I’d say it was random, but we’re talking about a guy who is at an age when defense starts to fall off.
And are you suggesting we shouldn’t add in the “partial” season so far? Basically we should completely ignore the newest data, because its not a fill season sample size yet? That would be completely dumb. I’ll freely admit that Pence could still be above average going forward, but I think its clearly more likely based on the past 250+ games that he’s average or worse at this point. You may disagree, but that doesn’t mean I’m lying or some other ridiculous crap like you’re spewing.
Did I ever suggest that Schafer didn’t play half the innings that Pence has?? No, and it still changed by a very large amount, more than half of the total value. It’s folly to assume Pence’s value couldn’t change dramatically as well, albeit not as drastically as Schafer’s.
What you did was intentionally manipulate the sample size for the benefit of your argument, which you’ve only admitted after the fact.
That is dishonest.
-C
It’s rough to sit through these games and not have someone that can’t hit a Ball?
No I made a comment on his current ability
I believe he’s currently an average corner OF based on UZR data. I don’t believe I ever said that UZR had him as an average OF for his career.
I didn't lie about anything
The numbers are obviously freely available at FG if anyone wants to go check them for themselves. Also, maybe it was yesterday, but I distinctly remember in one of these threads mentioning that he was very good two and three years ago, but had been average at best the past two years. I didn’t feel the need to mention it in every single post about Pence…ESPECIALLY SINCE NUMBERS IN QUESTION ARE EASY FOR ANYONE TO CHECK.
Calling it dishonest is freaking ridiculous man. Its obvious what I meant when I called him average. He’s been below average for over a season and a half at this point. If for some reason people don’t check the numbers, that’s their own fault. Its impossible to deceive people with numbers that are right there are the web.
The point is we should not have to fact-check you. If you’re going to present a case, present it honestly.
It’s really as simple as that.
-C
It’s rough to sit through these games and not have someone that can’t hit a Ball?
I never said UZR has him as an average corner OF for his career
I simply said he’s an average corner OF. Yeah, its an opinion to a certain extent, but based on what the data is currently saying, I feel pretty confident that he’s likely an average true talent defender there going forward.
What are you talking about?
In general people weight more recent years numbers more than older numbers. Yeah, its tricky with UZR since it takes so long to stabilize, but go read the comments from Fielding Bible voters and see if they weight numbers from 2 years ago as much as the current years numbers (here’s a hit Sherlock, they DON’T). Pence is an aging player that has seen his UZR slip the past 2 years to the point where his numbers are well below average this year. I think I’m being more than fair in simply calling him an average fielder going forward. You could certainly make the case that he’s on his way to well below average territory and unlikely to return to his 2008-2009 form.
But hey keep acting like you’re the smartest guy in the room. I’m sure most statheads agree with you that 2009 is just as relevant as 2011. I hear Chone Figgins is still a great player because he posted a 6.9 WAR in 2009. Who cares if he’s below replacement level this year.
Bourn is older than Pence and is also having a bad defensive year. But that doesn’t seem to bother you much.
If we can land [Stephen Drew], I will give FW a bj.
~justincredubil02
by king of games on Jul 26, 2011 6:26 PM EDT up reply actions
He's less than 4 months older
He’s also coming off a +19.4 defensive season last year compared to a +1.4 run season for Pence. But I’m sure you checked the numbers, saw that, and chose to disregard it because it disagrees with your argument.
You, plus Bourn is already playing CF, not moving there from a corner. Even if you project him to be below average in CF (which isn’t really fair considering what he did last year), he still projects far better there than does Pence.
i wasn't disputing that
just saying the flight patterns change depending on position lol
Chopmaster: my link is my dad who has watched the braves since I don’t know. he’s 56.
We had Melky and McLouth in CF last year. Do you really think that Pence is incapable with that in mind?
Sgt.: Pointed stick? Oh, oh, oh. We want to learn how to defend ourselves against pointed sticks, do we? Getting all high and mighty, eh? Fresh fruit not good enough for you eh? Well I'll tell you something my lad. When you're walking home tonight and some great homicidal maniac comes after you with a bunch of loganberries, don't come crying to me! Now, the passion fruit.
Honestly
Remembering that, I think I’m more than capable
It was a particularly small egg...thats why I asked.
by thenightstallion on Jul 26, 2011 3:59 PM EDT up reply actions
nor does it make it a bad idea considering his bat
physical tools, and skills defensively.
http://sportsandgrits.blogspot.com/
For cryin' out loud...
We’re talking about a Major League outfielder in the prime of his career who has excellent skills. This is not an issue. Period.
"Just take out the whole Tim McCarver part of the broadcast and boom, the director has freed up a whopping 45 minutes of airtime." - Rob Iracane of Yahoo! Sports, 7/13/11
You right, let's completely ignore defense
Beltran in CF FTW
If you replace Schafer/Mclouth’s stats with Pence’s it is a great idea:
Pence .308 /.356 /.470 /.827 OPS+ 132
Schafer .234/ .300/ .313 / .613 (214 ABs)
McLouth: .231 / .347 / 341 / .688 (307 ABs)
average Schafer and McLouth weighted .232/ ~.328/ ~.330/ .658
Pence-wMcScha: .076/.028/.140/.168 raw increase
That is HUGE!
Sgt.: Pointed stick? Oh, oh, oh. We want to learn how to defend ourselves against pointed sticks, do we? Getting all high and mighty, eh? Fresh fruit not good enough for you eh? Well I'll tell you something my lad. When you're walking home tonight and some great homicidal maniac comes after you with a bunch of loganberries, don't come crying to me! Now, the passion fruit.
weighted Mean-contrasted Slugging-closer-hit-average
I got nothin’
by Ivan the Great on Jul 26, 2011 4:15 PM EDT up reply actions
Again, that's a false dichotomy
There are other options out there that we can trade for. And while Pence is a much better hitter than Schafer, he’s going to give a large portion of that advantage back on defense. And he’s going to be very expensive the next few years and cost a lot in terms of prospects. I’m not sure why people are so hung up on him considering all indications are he’s only available in a gross overpay scenario.
I think that he would be less of a negative defensive impact than McLouth. I don’t buy at all that his increased offensive production would be negated by defense. Don’t buy it at all. Even if he misplayed half the balls hit to him I don’t think that would be true. Not to mention that we would still have a league average OF with Heyward and Prado around him. Plus he might actually throw the ball and would be a defensive gain in that category.
Sgt.: Pointed stick? Oh, oh, oh. We want to learn how to defend ourselves against pointed sticks, do we? Getting all high and mighty, eh? Fresh fruit not good enough for you eh? Well I'll tell you something my lad. When you're walking home tonight and some great homicidal maniac comes after you with a bunch of loganberries, don't come crying to me! Now, the passion fruit.
Again false dichotomy
Its not McLouth v. Pence, its Pence v. all the other players that can be obtained through trade
And Pence is better than all of them except for Beltran, who would be even worse in CF.
If we can land [Stephen Drew], I will give FW a bj.
~justincredubil02
by king of games on Jul 26, 2011 4:21 PM EDT up reply actions
Like whom exactly?
If we can land [Stephen Drew], I will give FW a bj.
~justincredubil02
by king of games on Jul 26, 2011 4:24 PM EDT up reply actions
Bourn and Span
Even Upton isn’t THAT far behind once BABIP regression sets in
Wow
You have most obviously not looked at any stats.
If we can land [Stephen Drew], I will give FW a bj.
~justincredubil02
by king of games on Jul 26, 2011 4:28 PM EDT up reply actions
No I actually looked at BABIP
With his career average BABIP you’re looking at a wRC+ of around 110 for Pence compared to a 102 for Upton
Pence is a line-drive hitter which means he is more than capable of outperforming his BABIP more than other hitters.
Sgt.: Pointed stick? Oh, oh, oh. We want to learn how to defend ourselves against pointed sticks, do we? Getting all high and mighty, eh? Fresh fruit not good enough for you eh? Well I'll tell you something my lad. When you're walking home tonight and some great homicidal maniac comes after you with a bunch of loganberries, don't come crying to me! Now, the passion fruit.
Span maybe… not really been made available that we know of, but there’s one.
Upton? You can’t really make that case with his production this year. Not even close.
"Just take out the whole Tim McCarver part of the broadcast and boom, the director has freed up a whopping 45 minutes of airtime." - Rob Iracane of Yahoo! Sports, 7/13/11
Span is as available as Pence
You can make an offer and if you overpay you can probably pry him free
That now circles back to the idea of price being a factor. However: the Twins aren’t selling.
Nice job cherry-picking stats, btw… that didn’t even quite make your own point. sigh
"Just take out the whole Tim McCarver part of the broadcast and boom, the director has freed up a whopping 45 minutes of airtime." - Rob Iracane of Yahoo! Sports, 7/13/11
Cherry picking stats?
I picked an all encompassing offensive stat. How is that cherrypicking?
And the Twins have talked about selling and considering they’re 8 games below .500 I’m sure they will listen.
And the Astros are taking offers on guys, but its pretty clear they aren’t looking to sell unless they are blown away since they are currently in the process of an ownership change with a likely lame duck GM
Because Pence’s wRC+ this year is 133 vs. 102 for Upton…. an absolutely huge margin. I’m not going to buy Upton in decline… I’m actually surprised his wRC+ was that good. Even so, their career numbers were 117 vs. 107, so it’s still not that close.
"Just take out the whole Tim McCarver part of the broadcast and boom, the director has freed up a whopping 45 minutes of airtime." - Rob Iracane of Yahoo! Sports, 7/13/11
117 to 107 is ~8 runs over a year
Upton makes that up on defense.
And like I keep mentioning, Pence’s line is clearly being propped up by an unsustainable BABIP. If you regress his BABIP to his career average he’s suddenly a worse overall hitter than when he posted a 112 wRC+ last season.
That’s not cherrypicking, that’s called using stats correctly.
Bourn isn’t even close to the offensive numbers of Pence (.338 SLG anyone?) Span is good but still not as good as Pence offensively.
And Upton looks so much like McLouth stats wise that it is scar.
Sgt.: Pointed stick? Oh, oh, oh. We want to learn how to defend ourselves against pointed sticks, do we? Getting all high and mighty, eh? Fresh fruit not good enough for you eh? Well I'll tell you something my lad. When you're walking home tonight and some great homicidal maniac comes after you with a bunch of loganberries, don't come crying to me! Now, the passion fruit.
Bourn 123 wRC+; Pence 133 wRC+
One of these two players plays good CF defense, while the other is average in RF and hasn’t played CF in 4 years.
Upton can play CF unlike McLouth, so why are we comparing the two?
Because he wouldn’t be an offensive improvement. I pray that we aren’t going out and spending prospects to improve our CF defense…
Pence is a RH impact bat. Bourn is good, but as a speed guy that wRC+ is as close as Pence and Bourn are going to get. Bourn is also having a great month while Pence is slumping a little bit. The career numbers aren’t even close.
Also, Bourn struggles against lefties which is the last thing this club needs. I’m not saying that Bourn is terrible, but I greatly prefer Pence who is a legit impact bat.
Sgt.: Pointed stick? Oh, oh, oh. We want to learn how to defend ourselves against pointed sticks, do we? Getting all high and mighty, eh? Fresh fruit not good enough for you eh? Well I'll tell you something my lad. When you're walking home tonight and some great homicidal maniac comes after you with a bunch of loganberries, don't come crying to me! Now, the passion fruit.
Runs saved are as important as runs earned
Nate McLouth has no business ever manning CF. The question is whether Upton is an offensive improvement over Schafer and he clearly is.
Runs saved are as important as runs earned if they match up 1 to 1. I just don’t think that Pence is going to negate his great offensive impact with defense. I just don’t buy it.
And Upton isn’t that great. Even if you give him an offensive and defensive bonus over Schafer I think that Pence’s impact is far greater.
Sgt.: Pointed stick? Oh, oh, oh. We want to learn how to defend ourselves against pointed sticks, do we? Getting all high and mighty, eh? Fresh fruit not good enough for you eh? Well I'll tell you something my lad. When you're walking home tonight and some great homicidal maniac comes after you with a bunch of loganberries, don't come crying to me! Now, the passion fruit.
Don’t know where I got that .338 SLG but that it is incorrect. However, his slugging% derives primarily from doubles and speed rather than a power bat.
Even still. Pence is a much better bat than Bourn and a RH one at that. Bourn would be good but I like Pence better.
Sgt.: Pointed stick? Oh, oh, oh. We want to learn how to defend ourselves against pointed sticks, do we? Getting all high and mighty, eh? Fresh fruit not good enough for you eh? Well I'll tell you something my lad. When you're walking home tonight and some great homicidal maniac comes after you with a bunch of loganberries, don't come crying to me! Now, the passion fruit.
Bourn is an actual CF though
And we need a leadoff hitter more than another middle of the order bat.
Staying within the realm of sabermetrics and all
A productive hitter is a productive hitter, regardless of whether he’s a leadoff guy or a power bat.
Probably true
But if lineup optimization is worth 5-10 runs over the course of a season versus the most sub-optimal lineup possible, then I think the difference between two equal bats based on wRC+ but with different skill sets is probably less than half a run over the course of the entire season. Very nitpicky at that point.
How is that the case? Even if we use that logic Pence is still the best option. Upton is remarkably similar in his production this year to McLouth and Beltran is an injury prone rental.
But we are talking about adding a player to the lineup. If Pence was added then McLouth and Schafer probably won’t be everyday players because we already have Prado and Heyward.
Your response shouldn’t be that it is a false dichotomy but explain how someone else improve the ball club in a better way, because the fact of the matter is that the bad performance of McLouth/Schafer has partly necessitated a move.
Sgt.: Pointed stick? Oh, oh, oh. We want to learn how to defend ourselves against pointed sticks, do we? Getting all high and mighty, eh? Fresh fruit not good enough for you eh? Well I'll tell you something my lad. When you're walking home tonight and some great homicidal maniac comes after you with a bunch of loganberries, don't come crying to me! Now, the passion fruit.
Upton may be similar offensively to Nate
But he’s world better defensively, so yeah he’s a pretty big upgrade there.
You also completely fail to mention Bourn or Span.
And all indications are that you have to badly overpay to get Pence. I just don’t see the appeal considering he’s not even going to be cheap the next two years with arbitration.
i thought this was an argument
on what he would provide, not how much he would cost
Chopmaster: my link is my dad who has watched the braves since I don’t know. he’s 56.
You are completely overvaluing defense.
If we can land [Stephen Drew], I will give FW a bj.
~justincredubil02
by king of games on Jul 26, 2011 4:30 PM EDT up reply actions
The first point is that it is not a “false dichotomy” at the point that two bad players have necessitated a trade. Also, all I am analyzing is the impact that he would have on the team (seen above by showing the raw stats addition that Pence would provide) which still stands.
Bourn is good but is a LH hitter who is having a career year (his first year with an OPS over 100) but Pence is still better.
Span would likely cost as much as Pence.
And yes you are absolutely overvaluing defense.
Explain to me in hard numbers or even well structured logic how in the world Pence’s offensive impact is negated by defense? Please.
Sgt.: Pointed stick? Oh, oh, oh. We want to learn how to defend ourselves against pointed sticks, do we? Getting all high and mighty, eh? Fresh fruit not good enough for you eh? Well I'll tell you something my lad. When you're walking home tonight and some great homicidal maniac comes after you with a bunch of loganberries, don't come crying to me! Now, the passion fruit.
Pence's impact
He’s an ~ average defender in a corner which generally equates to a -10 defender in CF. That means he needs to provide a 110+ wRC+ to provide above league average value. Considering that’s about where his current peripherals peg his future performance, I just don’t see a ton of value there.
You are also assuming that Pence would play CF, and even if you do make that assumption you are oversimplifying a lot of things and ignoring others. His arms would be arguably the best of all CFers (a plus) he would play with two above average defenders (which partly negates his impact) he would be fielding behind a ground ball oriented staff (which mollifies his defensive impact.)
And I also don’t believe that he would cost 10 runs defensively over the course of the year but he would definitely provide more than that offensively over what we are running out in CF today.
Sgt.: Pointed stick? Oh, oh, oh. We want to learn how to defend ourselves against pointed sticks, do we? Getting all high and mighty, eh? Fresh fruit not good enough for you eh? Well I'll tell you something my lad. When you're walking home tonight and some great homicidal maniac comes after you with a bunch of loganberries, don't come crying to me! Now, the passion fruit.
And the false dichotomy
Is in regards to simply comparing McLouth/Schafer to Pence instead of comparing him to other trade options.
All I’m trying to outline is the impact that Pence would provide over the player(s) he would replace. What is false about that?
Sgt.: Pointed stick? Oh, oh, oh. We want to learn how to defend ourselves against pointed sticks, do we? Getting all high and mighty, eh? Fresh fruit not good enough for you eh? Well I'll tell you something my lad. When you're walking home tonight and some great homicidal maniac comes after you with a bunch of loganberries, don't come crying to me! Now, the passion fruit.
Well no one argued he wouldn't improve us
The whole discussion is about who is the player the Braves should be targeting, not whether they should be targeting a player.
And I think we should add a RH impact bat and that man is Pence. The impact he would provide to the overall lineup is partly based on who he would replace and the additions he would provide.
Sgt.: Pointed stick? Oh, oh, oh. We want to learn how to defend ourselves against pointed sticks, do we? Getting all high and mighty, eh? Fresh fruit not good enough for you eh? Well I'll tell you something my lad. When you're walking home tonight and some great homicidal maniac comes after you with a bunch of loganberries, don't come crying to me! Now, the passion fruit.
Why would you limit the pool of players we're looking at unnecesarily
If anyone trades for Pence this season they will regret it big time a year or two from now. You have to overpay badly in prospects, he’s getting lucky with BABIP this year so he’s not as good as he currently looks, and he’s going to get real expensive in arbitration. I just don’t get the fascination for a solid, but not special, corner OF.
For the same reason we aren’t trying to acquire a 1st baseman, because you need to acquire to need.
His BABIP is partly irrelevant because he is a line-drive hitter so you would expect him to outperform his BABIP (which he has done consistently through the course of his career.)
Hunter Pence is absolutely an impact bat. If all you want to weigh is defense then you could make an argument that we should stick with Schafer. I just think you are overvaluing defense.
Also, you are assuming Pence plays CF. If he does not and plays a corner spot then all of these arguments are irrelevant. But even if he does play CF, I think he can do it better than McLouth. I don’t think he will cost 10 runs defensively by any means, especially considering our groundball oriented staff.
Sgt.: Pointed stick? Oh, oh, oh. We want to learn how to defend ourselves against pointed sticks, do we? Getting all high and mighty, eh? Fresh fruit not good enough for you eh? Well I'll tell you something my lad. When you're walking home tonight and some great homicidal maniac comes after you with a bunch of loganberries, don't come crying to me! Now, the passion fruit.
We don't have a place to play a 1B
That’s not even remotely similar. We should be looking at all the positions we can upgrade at and look for the best possible fit among players available at that position.
Not sure what you’re talking about with regards to Pence’s BABIP. I’m not comparing him to the league average BABIP, I’m comparing him to his career average BABIP. He’s is outperforming what he’s done through the rest of his career by a huge amount. That is why he is going to regress at some point.
And I’m not completely focusing on defense. I’m focusing on overall package instead of solely looking at one thing like you’ve decided to do.
The point I was trying to make is that we need a RH bat to provide some balance to our offense which will help the dynamic of our offense and help in late inning relief match ups which has its own impact.
On the BABIP issue. You know whose BABIP is equally unsustainable? Michael Bourn’s BABIP is .373 which exceeds his career numbers by a comparable amount to Pence’s. If you are going to say that Bourn’s speed is a factor then Pence’s line drive tendency must also be considered.
I just don’t think that defense is as important as you say. And even if you do want to consider it highly important, our groundball oriented staff, Pence’s arm, and strong defenders around him would soften the impact of his defense. Meanwhile, his status as a RH hitter adds value to his offense while Bourn struggles against lefties.
Sgt.: Pointed stick? Oh, oh, oh. We want to learn how to defend ourselves against pointed sticks, do we? Getting all high and mighty, eh? Fresh fruit not good enough for you eh? Well I'll tell you something my lad. When you're walking home tonight and some great homicidal maniac comes after you with a bunch of loganberries, don't come crying to me! Now, the passion fruit.
Why the love for Beltran?
He has said he “is comfortable in right”, so we can assume if he has to play center, he may not be able stay healthy. Which brings me to my second question, can he stay healthy? He apparently has questionable knees. Thirdly, he will be a rental player. If we are going to trade away talent, get someone who can contribute and someone we can keep. I personally dont want Beltran or Upton (do we really need another .220ish batting average?) Pence would be a good move, he is a righty, has a nice career avg, and should have plenty of productive years ahead.
I would include Colby Rasmus in that list.
by soup du jour on Jul 26, 2011 3:25 PM EDT up reply actions
I’d only take Rasmus for cheap, but the Cardinals won’t.
"It's not about me, it's about the team." - Martin Prado
Twitter: @scottcoleman55
by Scott Coleman on Jul 26, 2011 3:29 PM EDT up reply actions
Kemp
I’m fine with Kemp being a corner outfielder in a couple of years. He can play CF til Chipper retires, then slide over to LF. That is perfect.
Buster was wishing to be a fly on the wall...
I wish I had been able to bug FW’s phone last Friday. I still think the Braves had a trade for Upton done, and something happened to nix it at the last minute.
"Baseball is the only place in life where a sacrifice is really appreciated."
What makes you think that?
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Jul 26, 2011 3:28 PM EDT up reply actions
A feeling. Putting some things together. DOB reporting the Braves were about to make a deal on a right handed bat. Upton pulled from the game, as Jennings was promoted. It just looks like something happened with a deal in place, and it would have been a surprise move at the time (making it feel very FW-ish).
"Baseball is the only place in life where a sacrifice is really appreciated."
Upton
My vote is for Upton. He plays good defense, RH bat, and I’ve always liked him for some reason. I just wish somebody would make a trade of any kind to get the ball rolling.
Trades...
Honestly… I don’t think there is a great trade candidate available right now. We need a CF or SS, but there simply aren’t any available for a trade right now.
BJ upton is good, but I wouldn’t sell the farm for him. His numbers have declined every year now for a while. I would love him in a uniform, but not for our big 4 prospects.
Beltran is a fantastic hitter, but not for 2 months.
Pence is good, but he’s not a superstar type player.
I think the braves are waiting for a big time player to make a move.
Rather not stick a guy that strikes out 20% of the time in our lineup.
Also, Willingham is a butcher in the field and we don’t have the luxury of a DH spot. He also doesn’t address the fact that if everyone is healthy, we still don’t have a serviceable CF or SS on both sides of the ball.
by Ivan the Great on Jul 26, 2011 3:36 PM EDT up reply actions
1. Doesn’t striking out 20% of the time mean that he will blow at least 20% of his chances without advancing runners?
2. Still can’t play him at short.
by Ivan the Great on Jul 26, 2011 3:38 PM EDT up reply actions
Never played center. Generally terrible defensive metrics in the outfield as a whole. And we have two amazing catchers…
He’s basically a DH replacement forced to play left.
by Ivan the Great on Jul 26, 2011 3:44 PM EDT up reply actions
who gives a crap about the defense? at this point it is about upgrading our offense. as long as he isn’t as bad as Brooks Conrad I could care less
Tonight's lineup
Tonight’s lineup vs PIT (7:10 SportSouth): Schafer 8 Prado 5 McCann 2 Freeman 3 Uggla 4 Heyward 9 McLouth 7 Lugo 6 Hanson 1
"Baseball is the only place in life where a sacrifice is really appreciated."
No seabass
though Lugo is not exactly an upgrade.
"Baseball is the only place in life where a sacrifice is really appreciated."
So, ESPN was wrong when they said that they guaranteed that McLouth wouldn’t be in the lineup tonight. lol
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Jul 26, 2011 3:36 PM EDT up reply actions
During the broadcast last night after they kept showing McLouth pissed in the dugout.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Jul 26, 2011 3:38 PM EDT up reply actions
There really is nothing to dislike about him
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Jul 26, 2011 3:42 PM EDT up reply actions
other than the cost
Prospects + Cash
Chopmaster: my link is my dad who has watched the braves since I don’t know. he’s 56.
I don’t mind paying from our wealth of assets to bring in a true difference maker who will be here for a while.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Jul 26, 2011 3:45 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah but what Im saying is the price once we get him
probably 10 mil in arb next year, and whos knows how much his next arb year?
Chopmaster: my link is my dad who has watched the braves since I don’t know. he’s 56.
I’m fine with that. We are paying Lowe $15M to be our 5th best starter, and that hasn’t hurt us too much yet. lol
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Jul 26, 2011 3:47 PM EDT up reply actions
Re: Wren can’t be cheap with his prospects forever.
The trend these days is to cling onto those prospects like they’re gold. Wren has yet to pull the trigger on dealing any young arms, dating all the way back to the Peavy-for-Hanson rumors a few years ago. Look at what TB did with Desmond Jennings. I don’t expect FW to make a move until it’s an offer that’s essentially a no-brainer.
Other than the fact his uptick this year is entirely BABIP driven
His peripheral numbers are actually worse than they’ve been throughout his career.
His lowest OPS in his career is .783
He’s had 3 seasons of an OPS of .800 or greater. He’s got a career line of .290 .339 .479 .818 and this season, he’s actually showing hte ability to take a walk, so no, his uptick is not BABIP driven. His OBP is .356 while his average is sitting at .308.
I’ll take that.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Jul 26, 2011 3:49 PM EDT up reply actions
His BB rate this year is 6.9% while its 6.8% for his career
His strikeouts are up and his power is down. He’s a solid hitter, but he’s don’t expect him to put up numbers better than his career averages.
thats the thing
i think we would all be extremely pleased if he provided his career averages
Chopmaster: my link is my dad who has watched the braves since I don’t know. he’s 56.
Considering he'd be earning 10+ million
And it would cost us prospects and he doesn’t play CF, I would. Especially since he seems like he’s in the process of declining.
$10MM is 2 WAR. I think Pence can handle that.
-C
It’s rough to sit through these games and not have someone that can’t hit a Ball?
Pence may be worth it...
But how do you realistically fit him into the budget? He’ll suck up nearly all the KK/McLouth money, which leaves little for arbitration raises to Prado, Jurrjens, et all.
by OrangeBravo on Jul 26, 2011 5:36 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Wins Above Replacement are going for well under 5 million these days
And you’re missing the point. The high salary cuts way into his surplus value, making the extra years of team control less valuable and probably not worth multiple top prospects.
Except that he is the goofiest looking runner I’ve ever seen in professional sports.
"One thing I’ve learned as a Phillies fan is that a lot of people hate our team and its fans."-commenter on The Good Phight
by Chipper Pwns on Jul 26, 2011 5:26 PM EDT up reply actions
All of our riches are tied up in collateral – not a bank account.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Jul 26, 2011 3:43 PM EDT up reply actions
Moving McCann to first in a few years should conserve his legs for his late 30’s…. Freeman could play 3B
Sure he could play 3B. So could Glaus. Doesn’t mean he should.
If we can land [Stephen Drew], I will give FW a bj.
~justincredubil02
by king of games on Jul 26, 2011 3:47 PM EDT up reply actions
Yet, he did.
If we can land [Stephen Drew], I will give FW a bj.
~justincredubil02
by king of games on Jul 26, 2011 6:08 PM EDT up reply actions
No he couldn't
I wonder sometimes which of your posts are serious and which are meant to be trolls
You suggested Freeman could play 3B
Combined with you complaining about us not drafting more power hitting catchers (because those are plentiful) makes me think you’re either kind of out of it mentally or trolling sometimes. I gave you the benefit of the doubt with regards to intelligence.
jeez no wonder people on this blog think you’re full of it….. and yeah drafting some hitters in one of the worst power hitting teams in baseball would be pretty nice eh?
No C thinks I'm full of it because he's in full on Dbag mode
And even if I was full of it, what does that have to do with ridiculous comments like Freeman could move back to 3B. He hasn’t played the position since he was like 18 years old, suggesting he could move back now is one of the dumbest things I’ve ever heard. Its borderline sarcastic trolling level dumb.
As for the draft, yeah it’d be awesome to draft those guys, except power hitting catchers go within the first round and a half and you seemed to think we should draft multiple guys like that. It’d be awesome if we could somehow create them out of thin air.
Are we doing this again today?
Sgt.: Pointed stick? Oh, oh, oh. We want to learn how to defend ourselves against pointed sticks, do we? Getting all high and mighty, eh? Fresh fruit not good enough for you eh? Well I'll tell you something my lad. When you're walking home tonight and some great homicidal maniac comes after you with a bunch of loganberries, don't come crying to me! Now, the passion fruit.
BJ Upton vs. McLouth
Career wOBA: BJU – .337 (.319 in 2011) / NM – .339 (.310 in 2011)
Career wRC+: BJU – 107 (102 in 2011) / NM – 106 (95 in 2011)
I understand that Upton is considered a better fielder, but is this an upgrade worth paying for?
Don't kiss an ass if it's in the process of shitting on you.
"…aren’t worthy enough to hold his (Pujols) ass cheeks apart while Playboy models wipe him with thousand dollar bills after he craps out the cure to whatever previously-incurable disease." by royhobbs 1/7/09
Upton also has more upside. So the real question is, are you willing to bet that he’ll realize his potential.
If we can land [Stephen Drew], I will give FW a bj.
~justincredubil02
by king of games on Jul 26, 2011 3:52 PM EDT up reply actions
Upton seems more like an off-season acquisition than a mid-season impact get.
Sgt.: Pointed stick? Oh, oh, oh. We want to learn how to defend ourselves against pointed sticks, do we? Getting all high and mighty, eh? Fresh fruit not good enough for you eh? Well I'll tell you something my lad. When you're walking home tonight and some great homicidal maniac comes after you with a bunch of loganberries, don't come crying to me! Now, the passion fruit.
Absolutely not
I doubt Upton improves beyond what can be expected from getting him out of the Trop. He’s in his 5th pro season, and with his work ethic/make-up questions, I wouldn’t pay for anything more than what he is now: a solid defensive CF and baserunner with roughly league average offense.
by OrangeBravo on Jul 26, 2011 4:05 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I agree
Not really sold on Upton, just saying that that’s where the upgrade would be.
If we can land [Stephen Drew], I will give FW a bj.
~justincredubil02
by king of games on Jul 26, 2011 4:11 PM EDT up reply actions
Yes
McLouth’s numbers are on the way down and he has no business starting in CF.
Well, McLouth’s numbers are better than last year (yeah, I know that’s not saying much). And while I’ll certainly acknowledge that McLouth sucks at baseball, Upton hasn’t been good in 3 years. I just don’t see how this puts us over the top, even if the price for Upton were only a bag of baseballs.
Don't kiss an ass if it's in the process of shitting on you.
"…aren’t worthy enough to hold his (Pujols) ass cheeks apart while Playboy models wipe him with thousand dollar bills after he craps out the cure to whatever previously-incurable disease." by royhobbs 1/7/09
Step 1. Tell the Rays this
Step 2. Do an Inception-esque thing to convince the Rays brass to trade Upton for McLouth straight-up.
Step 3. ???
Step 4. Profit
by Ivan the Great on Jul 26, 2011 3:57 PM EDT up reply actions
Rumors of Upton to Pitt?
3 team swap:
Minor and Upton to Pitt
Delgado, Bethancourt, Hoover, and Perez to Tampa
McCutcheon and Joel Peralta to Atlanta
http://sportsandgrits.blogspot.com/
Makes little sense...
Pitt would be taking a substantial step backwards and somehow all the prospects end up in Tampa for B.J. Upton…just no.
by OrangeBravo on Jul 26, 2011 4:09 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
if Wren isn't stealing McCutcheon, then why are they interested in Upton?
Jon Heyman said they were interested in him, so it must be true. That deal goes down by the close of business Thursday. Take it to the bank.
http://sportsandgrits.blogspot.com/
Yeah, that’s what I was curious about — why Upton? But they would really have to be overwhelmed to give up Cutch… not sure Minor is enough.
"Just take out the whole Tim McCarver part of the broadcast and boom, the director has freed up a whopping 45 minutes of airtime." - Rob Iracane of Yahoo! Sports, 7/13/11
Tehran isnt enough
Hes as untouchable as Jason Heyward
Not sure how i would feel about Bossman Junior
He has a slash line of .229/.310/.399 this year and I really think he is just a good athlete, not necessarily a good baseball player. If they can buy low on him, it may be worth it, but I really would prefer any of the other trade options out there over Upton.
"The Dos Equis guys want me to be the least interesting man in the world" - Drama
Good point!
I'm sold
"The Dos Equis guys want me to be the least interesting man in the world" - Drama
by BravesDawg16 on Jul 26, 2011 4:01 PM EDT up reply actions
Don’t you know? Arranging whimsical fun things with the names of your team’s players gets you an extra 10 games in the standings come the end of the season!
by Ivan the Great on Jul 26, 2011 4:02 PM EDT up reply actions
Friday After Next is on now
I need to stay home more often!
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Jul 26, 2011 4:03 PM EDT reply actions
I’m a Kat Williams fan.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Jul 26, 2011 4:25 PM EDT up reply actions
Yuck, please no Adam Jones
-15.6 career UZR in CF
Career 4.9% walk rate,
He certainly has some positives, but he would require way too much for someone who will have to be shifted in a corner OF spot in the near future.
Freeman isn’t on Heyward’s level in terms of tools, skills, or baseball IQ–but it’s fair to say Freeman has failed to meet the modest expectations in place for him - Capitol Avenue Club (May 28th, 2011)
Fear the DOB article....
http://blogs.ajc.com/atlanta-braves-blog/2011/07/26/would-braves-bench-heyward-if-trades-made/
Exactly what I have been afraid of happening is exactly what he is suggesting.
"Baseball is the only place in life where a sacrifice is really appreciated."
WHAT????
WTF???
FUFG!!!
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Jul 26, 2011 4:18 PM EDT up reply actions
Jeez, what a stupid stance to take. I could agree with giving Heyward a bit more down time because he has shown that he needs that (even though thus far this year its impact has been negligible) but making that an official thing is just stupid.
Sgt.: Pointed stick? Oh, oh, oh. We want to learn how to defend ourselves against pointed sticks, do we? Getting all high and mighty, eh? Fresh fruit not good enough for you eh? Well I'll tell you something my lad. When you're walking home tonight and some great homicidal maniac comes after you with a bunch of loganberries, don't come crying to me! Now, the passion fruit.
So they’re happy with Schafer, but they would consider putting Heyward on the bench or sending him down?
That doesn’t make a bit of sense.
by ducheneaux13 on Jul 26, 2011 4:26 PM EDT up reply actions
Fredi feels that Schafer had a 5+ fWAR season last year
by Ivan the Great on Jul 26, 2011 4:29 PM EDT up reply actions
Fredi actually said, “What f-ing War? Afghanistan?”
"Baseball is the only place in life where a sacrifice is really appreciated."
More like, “What war? Spanish-American? What? Where am I?”
by Ivan the Great on Jul 26, 2011 4:40 PM EDT up reply actions
Heyward’s SPARK% and TBLSET stats are way down this season. Schafer leads the team in both categories
Fucker never did learn the shrimp fork from the salad fork.
'There are two pains in life. There is the pain of discipline and the pain of disappointment. If you can handle the pain of discipline, then you'll never have to deal with the pain of disappointment,'- Nick Saban
this is beyond dumb
Jordan Schafer in 2009: .204/.313/.287 in 195 PA’s; gets sent to the minors. Jordan Schafer in 2011: .234/.300/.313; bats leadoff every day.-CAC
Hes been the same exact player as he was when he was hurt, yet we want to keep him and put Heyward on the bench.
This would be the WORST thing we could possibly do. I rather do absolutly nothing than to let a 21 year old rot on the bench
Shrimp, Steak, Liquor, and Pasta
.
Tell you who we need- Dan. Uggla.
Oh, wait…
'There are two pains in life. There is the pain of discipline and the pain of disappointment. If you can handle the pain of discipline, then you'll never have to deal with the pain of disappointment,'- Nick Saban
AAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHH I JUST WANT IT TO BE OVEEEEEERRRRRR!!!!
Go USA, Braves, BU Terriers, Irish, Caps, Skins, NU Cats, Wizards, DC United, Washington Freedom
BU Hockey: National Champions 1971, 1972, 1978, 1995, 2009
Major Beltran Update....!
the exponent in the equation is a matter of preference and "fit" it can vary depending on what the user believes to yield the curve that best predicts a team’s ability to win games.
by Ivan the Great on May 20, 2011 12:31 PM VET
48 hours later
Major update: One person close to the Beltran talks expects them to intensify EVEN MORE within the next 48 hours. Stay tuned!
I wonder
how serious of an “inside source” these reporters have compared to them aimlessly assuming stuff and publishing it as a rumor?
In other breaking news....
Prince Fielder will attack another bag of chips within the next 24 hours.
"Just take out the whole Tim McCarver part of the broadcast and boom, the director has freed up a whopping 45 minutes of airtime." - Rob Iracane of Yahoo! Sports, 7/13/11
Was gonna suggest Bartlett
then i saw his numbers
Chopmaster: my link is my dad who has watched the braves since I don’t know. he’s 56.
Also Padres said they aren’t trading him.
Are his road splits any better than the soul-sucking drain of playing at Petco?
by Ivan the Great on Jul 26, 2011 4:44 PM EDT up reply actions
yeah but still leaves a lot to be desired
Road: .263 .318 .323
Home: .230 .307 .280
Chopmaster: my link is my dad who has watched the braves since I don’t know. he’s 56.
I dont want anybody who going to send Jason Heyward to AAA
If the braves are going to be this dumb i just wont waste my time
Yep. It's the sad truth.
My stance has shifted into Bourn or bust. A corner outfielder pushes Heyward to the minors, and I doubt we deal for an attitude problem like Upton. My dream is that Schafer gets included in a package for Bourn so that all of these shennanigans can just stop.
by OrangeBravo on Jul 26, 2011 5:01 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Absolutely. If you are not trading to replace CF, then stand pat.
"Baseball is the only place in life where a sacrifice is really appreciated."
Upton, Bourn, Maybin (ideal choice but pipedream), Rasmus, etc
CF and only CF, thats it. No maybe’s
Sure. Still think this team needs a high leverage RH reliever
My vote goes to Uehara. Neyer wrote a good article today on why he would be desirable.
by OrangeBravo on Jul 26, 2011 5:17 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Something for you all to enjoy while we wait
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wX_ThT1jpas&feature=related
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Jul 26, 2011 4:53 PM EDT reply actions
I’m ready to see a deal done and a cohesive ball club on the field.
Sgt.: Pointed stick? Oh, oh, oh. We want to learn how to defend ourselves against pointed sticks, do we? Getting all high and mighty, eh? Fresh fruit not good enough for you eh? Well I'll tell you something my lad. When you're walking home tonight and some great homicidal maniac comes after you with a bunch of loganberries, don't come crying to me! Now, the passion fruit.
Moneyball
Although the Braves have a decent payroll they are managed as though they are a “moneyball” team. The reason why Wren is so weary on dealing any of the “Big 4” pitching prospects is because he knows that money being paid to Jones/Lowe/Hudson/McCann right now will have to be paid to keep Heyward/Freeman/Hanson/Jurrjens around so while trying to field a team with veterans making millions and rookies making not so many millions it’s hard for him to “trade away the future” but once in a while youve gotta make a deal and go for the championship since the payroll isn’t big enough to buy free agents (I’m looking at you Boston/NY). So either give up a prospect or two and take a chance with this team ( Do it for The Chip) or sell the team to Mark Cuban
by tombowski02 on Jul 26, 2011 5:24 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
Agreed on all counts
Except that last bit. Wren doesn’t decide who or when to sell the team, unfortunately. I’m sure he’d love to have a bigger payroll even more than we do.
It is possible to make a move that improves the club beyond this year and hopefully that’s what we are looking for. I think we are better served using our prospects instead of FA money to get a good player. Granted I think it would be more cost-effective to do it in the off-season but we have a chance to improve our club in the future and help impact our lineup this year. That’s a very big thing to accomplish.
Sgt.: Pointed stick? Oh, oh, oh. We want to learn how to defend ourselves against pointed sticks, do we? Getting all high and mighty, eh? Fresh fruit not good enough for you eh? Well I'll tell you something my lad. When you're walking home tonight and some great homicidal maniac comes after you with a bunch of loganberries, don't come crying to me! Now, the passion fruit.
Reed Johnson...
My prediction for our in-season OF help this trade dealine. He’s cheap, and can be had for something like McLouth/Schafer (and cash depending) plus a C arm.
We disagree often but Reed Johnson would not be a bad cheap option at all. They would never take McLouth though. We’d have to give prospects to make someone pay for McLouth and we value Schafer far more than other teams do.
Just curious
we value Schafer far more than other teams do.
How do you know this?
'There are two pains in life. There is the pain of discipline and the pain of disappointment. If you can handle the pain of discipline, then you'll never have to deal with the pain of disappointment,'- Nick Saban
Bowman:
Schafer has been scratched from tonight’s lineup. Finger is really bothering him again. Have to wonder if he’ll end up on the DL
I guess Hinske will move to LF
Chopmaster: my link is my dad who has watched the braves since I don’t know. he’s 56.
why
no chipper…?
the exponent in the equation is a matter of preference and "fit" it can vary depending on what the user believes to yield the curve that best predicts a team’s ability to win games.
by Ivan the Great on May 20, 2011 12:31 PM VET
Oh...
i thought MIT students were doing scheduled maintenance in his cyber knees….
the exponent in the equation is a matter of preference and "fit" it can vary depending on what the user believes to yield the curve that best predicts a team’s ability to win games.
by Ivan the Great on May 20, 2011 12:31 PM VET
This article talks about getting Kemp and Jones "for years to come"
Except Kemp is only under team control for one more year.
Follow me on Twitter: @hashtagbaseball
New Lineup
McLouth 8 Prado 5 McCann 2 Freeman 3 Uggla 4 Hinske 7 Heyward 9 Lugo 6 Hanson 1
"Baseball is the only place in life where a sacrifice is really appreciated."
McLouth leading off?!?!
"Baseball is the only place in life where a sacrifice is really appreciated."
Rosenthal
Sources: #Phillies most aggressive on Pence. #RedSox have inquired, tough finding match. #Braves not currently involved
I think that we're either going after Beltran, a not as big name guy like Reed Johnson, or Wren will surprise us w another Ankiel type deal
If they have to DL Schafer, I expect a move soon. Prediction: we get Beltran, Giants get Upton, Phillies blow their farm on Pence
For Philly, there’s only so much OPS to go around. Adding Pence will cost them another D Brown, Singleton, and/or Cosart type prospect for maybe a .200 OPS increase (albeit RH) over the current option.
by TBuzz on Jul 26, 2011 8:57 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
BTW:
Viz is officially in Gwinnett.
"Baseball is the only place in life where a sacrifice is really appreciated."
To correct the original post, although it could have changed
Everywhere I’ve read, several statements from Rays managment, say that it will not take a top prospect to land Upton. They’ve said, while it may take three to four prospects, none of them NEED to be top prospects to get the deal done.
Sometimes I wake up grumpy; other times I let her sleep.
by chicagobullies on Jul 26, 2011 7:15 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
MLBTR:
Nats acquire Jonny Gomes
"Is Prince Fielder a legitimate threat to your stash of potato chips?" -Bronn
The push for a 70 win season must be exhilarating.
"One thing I’ve learned as a Phillies fan is that a lot of people hate our team and its fans."-commenter on The Good Phight
by Chipper Pwns on Jul 26, 2011 11:22 PM EDT up reply actions
Wow, gondee...
…you have gone off the cliff. Apparently, you decided that a front page post was necessary to suggest that the Braves should trade for one of two guys who are just not available and one of whom really isn’t that good. I know we are getting antsy (and with McCann going down the anxiety level rises further) but this is just pointless silliness.
With Chipper straining a muscle, Schafer's wrist/finger being an issue...
and now McCann on the shelf, we have to acquire a bat, right? This makes adding Pence for Minor not so much of a problem now, right?
I fully expected to wake up this morning and see a) McCann DL’d, b) Martinez sent down to rest after last night’s psuedo start to bring in a fresher arm that can work the next 2-3 games, c) perhaps Chipper DL’d, and d) a trade to replenish the thinning roster.
http://sportsandgrits.blogspot.com/
by Mr. Sanchez on Jul 27, 2011 10:25 AM EDT up reply actions
So you were wrong again?
:P
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Jul 27, 2011 12:42 PM EDT up reply actions
when was the first time
and it’s not like I was guaranteeing those expectations, just that it wouldn’t surprise me.
http://sportsandgrits.blogspot.com/
by Mr. Sanchez on Jul 27, 2011 12:47 PM EDT up reply actions
Love this post
You summed it up perfectly from all aspects. The braves need to go all out for the right guy to have a shot at beating the Phils or a run producing juggernaut like the Red Sox. Kemp scares me as he’ll probably walk as the Braves won’t be able to resign him but I like Adam Jones or Michael Bourn. Get it done FW!
Go Bravos!
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