Hoping for the Yanks to acquire Jair Jurrjens or Derek Lowe? We're not sure if either is available, but Sherman says "the Yankees' policy has become pretty much to run away from Atlanta pitching after having successful Braves hurlers blow up on them."
11 months ago
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Not if you want to trade Lowe.
Can’t imagine too many teams out there that can take the salary.
"He knows where he's throwing. If he didn't, there'd be dead bodies strewn all over Idaho." - Washington Senators scout on Walter Johnson
Smithers said that?
Back on point though, other than Vazquez, who else dud we have “blow up on them”?
http://sportsandgrits.blogspot.com/
Didn’t they give him $15M???
Oh, and Kyle Farnsworth.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Jun 28, 2011 3:31 PM EDT up reply actions
They've returned the favor though...
in the name of one Scott Proctor.
Does Raffy Soriano count?
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Jun 28, 2011 3:30 PM EDT up reply actions
Chris Hammond, Jaret Wright, Vazquez,
Mike Stanton, Joe Borowski, Denny Neagle (one team removed), Mark Wohlers (one team removed), Steve Karsay, Farnsworth, and Buddy Carlyle.
They like to throw our retreads into the bullpen. Not the Braves’ fault!
"Insanity is doing the same thing, over and over again, but expecting different results."
— Albert Einstein
Twitter: @biggentleben
by biggentleben on Jun 28, 2011 4:32 PM EDT up reply actions
Damn, my memory is getting bad
thanks y’all.
That said, why not double down on this theory with Derek Lowe there Cashman? I double dog dare ya, straight up for Brett Gardner.
http://sportsandgrits.blogspot.com/
I think Cashman would want some Utility player named Cash...
and maybe Vizcaino back…
I’d make that deal, but I’d keep Cash.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Jun 28, 2011 5:10 PM EDT up reply actions
I do. Simply because we cannot just stockpile these guys. If there is no room on the MLB club for them, then they are most valuable as a trade commodity.
With Hanson, JJ, Minor, Beachy, Medlen, Teheran, Delgado and Hoover all under team control for the future, why hold on to Vizcaino?
Now, his trade value is probably the lowest of any of those guys, due to his injury history, so if we could get back someone like Gardner, I would be thrilled.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Jun 28, 2011 6:21 PM EDT up reply actions
As you say, because his value is low...
let him show out in AA the rest of the year healthy, and he could be a centerpiece for a better piece than Gardner (who’s turning 28 before September). I also think Vizcaino may profile as a dominant reliever, which would fit when guys like EOF and Moylan, among others get too expensive through arb.
Basically, if he’s going out, I want more than saving Lowe’s money and a 28 yr old leadoff man (that just might be a redundancy of Schafer if the kid can reach his potential)
http://sportsandgrits.blogspot.com/
to explain
Gardner is too old for that imo, meaning if he was an early 20s kid, I could see the upside for years. As he nears 30, I’m not sure he’ll be a high level contributor for much longer, and the early season struggles would give me pause. Vizcaino’s upside is just too much for that. Maybe a Hoover, but not Viz.
http://sportsandgrits.blogspot.com/
?
?
"He knows where he's throwing. If he didn't, there'd be dead bodies strewn all over Idaho." - Washington Senators scout on Walter Johnson
Just opining that Jorge Posada is a DH who happens to put on pads. He’s not a good caller/receiver of the game, seemingly gets his pitchers performing worse than wherever they came from (that’s not supported by facts btw), and has openly quarreled with AJ Burnett among others.
by TBuzz on Jun 28, 2011 11:50 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Ahh, yes ofc
"He knows where he's throwing. If he didn't, there'd be dead bodies strewn all over Idaho." - Washington Senators scout on Walter Johnson
I really have doubts
about how successful JJ would be for another team. I think if we keep him he can be an ace in the no. 2 or 3 spot for a long time, but I have a wierd feeling about how successful he could be elsewhere
lol
i think if they were in some trouble with their pitching, they would pull the trigger on d-lowe in a heart beat. thats fine with me we call up minor or teheran and maybe when medlen comes back he pitch’s like a stud like he did before tommyjohn.
Seriously...
with the way Beachy slings it, if he and Hanson are healthy in 30 days, and Cashman wants Lowe, it’s almost a no brainer. Hanson, Jurrjens, Beachy, Hudson, Minor/Teheran.
http://sportsandgrits.blogspot.com/
Not sure I want two rookies in the rotation down the stretch....
Braves better be getting a solid player in return or the Yankees take on his remaining salary and they acquire a bat.
by Undocorkscrew on Jun 28, 2011 9:20 PM EDT up reply actions
im ok giving up lowe for anything
but JJ has to net Gardner, thats the only possible trade. or montero
you think so?
Cuz I think that with Scott Boras as his agent, and the fact that we will soon need to sign Hanson and Heyward to some contracts, and with the plethora of young pitching we have, JJ becomes quite expendable. And if you replace JJ with Mike Minor/Kris Medlen, the drop you get there is not nearly as large as the boost you get from Gardner over McLouth/Schafer.
So the question really becomes, would you rather have Gardner leading off and getting on base a high clip, sparking our offense, stealing bases, scoring runs, and playing the best defensive center field in baseball with your pitching staff looking like Hanson, Hudson, Lowe, Beachy, Minor/Medlen. Or what we have right now?
Your opinion is your opinion, but in my opinion, Gardner for JJ is a good trade.
No
It’s a terrible trade. Gardner is not that valuable. He’s not as good as Denard Span, and he’s older. Yet I wouldn’t give JJ straight up for Span.
"Insanity is doing the same thing, over and over again, but expecting different results."
— Albert Einstein
Twitter: @biggentleben
by biggentleben on Jun 30, 2011 11:57 PM EDT up reply actions
Agreed.
"He knows where he's throwing. If he didn't, there'd be dead bodies strewn all over Idaho." - Washington Senators scout on Walter Johnson
How is Span better?
Looking at their stats they area almost identical offensively and defensively. Actually I think Gardner is the better defender. And Gardner will steal at least twice as many bases a year. I know steals arent that important, but if everything else is equal, then you definitely want all of those singles and walks to turn into doubles, dont you? I just know what those quality/speedy leadoff guys do to our pitchers. When Reyes gets on against us, he scores. When Bourn gets on against us, he scores. A threat on the basepaths like that takes all of the pitchers focus away. And Gardner with a full season leading off, getting on base at .360-.380, stealing 50-70 a year may be the best leadoff hitter in the game.
In Gardner’s first FULL season in the majors he had a 6.2 WAR, and is on pace for another 5.8 this year, and thats mostly batting 9th.
Span’s best season is a 4.1 WAR, currently on pace for 5.4.
I might be missing something, so I would surely like to hear your thoughts, but to me, it seems like you guys are really undervaluing Gardner.
I agree (still)
But you and I have been on the same page for a while about using our surplus pitching for some offensive impact.
Fangraphs, on Craig Kimbrel: "His strikeout rates look like they’re coming from a video game"
I'm not even saying that for offensive impact...
I’d let Lowe go just for the savings that can be reinvested in draft picks if there are any left unsigned, or for internationals, or just sit and earn interest to be used for contract extensions, free agents, and draft picks/international prospects next year.
http://sportsandgrits.blogspot.com/
Maybe not the Yankees, but I’d try to bundle Lowe and Minor to a team for a LF after this season.
Extend Jurrjens, buy out 2 yrs of arb, 2 yrs of FA / $30M ($6, $7, $8, $9M)
2012 Hanson, Hudson, Beachy, Jurrjens, Teheran (Delgado, Medlen, Oberholtzer available)
Hudson’s contract is up after 2012
2013 Hanson, Beachy, Jurrjens, Teheran, Delgado (Vizcaino, Medlen, Oberholtzer available)
Trade Hanson with 2 yrs control remaining
2014 Jurrjens, Teheran, Delgado, Beachy, Vizcaino
"Bunting's my favorite." Fredi G
Much prefer to trade Jurrjens than Hanson.
"Insanity is doing the same thing, over and over again, but expecting different results."
— Albert Einstein
Twitter: @biggentleben
by biggentleben on Jun 28, 2011 9:33 PM EDT up reply actions
hanson is probably a better pitcher. I’m not crazy about his motion though. Plus, I think we could extend Jurrjens, not so much Hanson.
"Bunting's my favorite." Fredi G
Why do you feel that JJ is more extendable than Hanson?
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Jun 29, 2011 3:56 PM EDT up reply actions
This
They’re both going to require mega bucks, most likely, and I’d rather spend that money on the elite talent.
"Insanity is doing the same thing, over and over again, but expecting different results."
— Albert Einstein
Twitter: @biggentleben
by biggentleben on Jun 29, 2011 4:30 PM EDT up reply actions
Nowhere near Hanson in pure stuff
"Insanity is doing the same thing, over and over again, but expecting different results."
— Albert Einstein
Twitter: @biggentleben
by biggentleben on Jun 30, 2011 11:09 AM EDT up reply actions
Aroldis Chapman is even better
it takes more than “stuff”.
http://sportsandgrits.blogspot.com/
by Mr. Sanchez on Jun 30, 2011 11:52 AM EDT up reply actions
True
But I would take Hanson over Jurrjens for likely very similar long-term money.
"Insanity is doing the same thing, over and over again, but expecting different results."
— Albert Einstein
Twitter: @biggentleben
by biggentleben on Jun 30, 2011 12:06 PM EDT up reply actions
Agreed...
the question is would they accept similar deals? If Hanson demands 150%, or even double, of what Jurrjens would, I’m not sure the difference is that significant.
http://sportsandgrits.blogspot.com/
by Mr. Sanchez on Jun 30, 2011 12:12 PM EDT up reply actions
I base it on Hanson rejecting the Braves offer for this season. I read that as Hanson playing hard ball in negotiations. If in fact Hanson is going to be a tough negotiation, #1 we can’t afford him vs what he could get on the open market and #2 he would want to go FA at the earliest date possible. He’s the 1st Brave since Frenchy that had to be unilaterally renewed.
Jurrjens seems more comfortable with Atlanta than Hanson does to me. Just judging it on facial expressions, but Hanson seems to take it more personally when he doesn’t get run support or the pen costs him a game. Meanwhile Jurrjens seems like a long term Braves fan. Grew up watching Andruw on TBS.
Both are Boras clients, but Hanson strikes me as a FA in waiting. Jurrjens seems like a guy that’s living a dream.
"Bunting's my favorite." Fredi G
If the FO said “no” when the Padres wanted to trade Peavy for Hanson, I think they will pony up whatever they need to in order to lock him up long term.
Do you have a link to Hanson rejecting the Braves offer? I hadn’t even heard that the two parties were negotiating…
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Jun 30, 2011 4:38 PM EDT up reply actions
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache.JFzhzaYKevwJ:blogs.ajc.com/atlanta-braves-blog/2011/03/03/braves-unilaterally-renew-tommy-hanson-for-1-year-contract/+tommy+hanson+unilaterally+renewed&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&source=www.google.com
"Bunting's my favorite." Fredi G
Fail
Just google “tommy hanson unilaterally renewed”, there are plenty of articles about it.
"Bunting's my favorite." Fredi G
Hell fire
Hanson has had to be unilaterally renewed in 2010 and 2011. He hasn’t accepted a contract yet as far as I can tell. Sorry, but I just don’t see him as being happy with the Braves. He has felt under paid from the get go.
"Bunting's my favorite." Fredi G
Why would they have to renew him in his 1st and 2nd seasons?
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Jun 30, 2011 8:02 PM EDT up reply actions
Every player not already under contract has to get a contract every year
Because he thought he should be paid more than the Braves were offering. Even pre-arbitration, when the club signs the players to a contract for the season, setting their salary, the player can sign or refuse. Hanson has refused to sign twice already. He wanted more $$$ than the Braves offered.
"Bunting's my favorite." Fredi G
Simpler
Team control does not equal under contract
"Bunting's my favorite." Fredi G
2009, was paid the pro-rated league minimum from 6/7/09 thru the end of the season
2010, on 3/3/10, was offered $435,000 for the season, refused to accept that figure as fair
2011, on 3/3/11 was offered $456,500 for the season, refused to accept that figure as fair
Are you seeing my argument at all?
"Bunting's my favorite." Fredi G
Curious hop,...
how many pitchers pre-arb, similar to Hanson, sign extensions? I notice neither Lincecum nor Felix were.
http://sportsandgrits.blogspot.com/
No clue
Seems like signing pitchers to long contracts/extensions pre-TJS is pretty risky though.
I don’t know how rare it is to “refuse to sign” either, but Frenchy in 07 and 08 was the last Brave that had to be unilaterally renewed.
"Bunting's my favorite." Fredi G
Because you have to actually give him a contract
if you don’t agree to a deal before a certain day, you “renew” a player. Who knows what kind of deal he turned down though considering I can’t think of too many pitchers pre-arb who weren’t treated similarly.
http://sportsandgrits.blogspot.com/
I was under the impression that all of these years of pre-arb were handled under the contract he signed after being drafted?
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Jun 30, 2011 11:39 PM EDT up reply actions
Nope
it’s like an option is the way I think of it. The team and player can agree to terms, or the team can cut the player lose, and if none of those, they “renew” a one year option at a low cost.
http://sportsandgrits.blogspot.com/
Whether or not you like it
He is great about repeating his motion. Many people with poor motions never suffer injury because they perfectly repeat their motion every time, and their muscles have developed to handle it.
"Insanity is doing the same thing, over and over again, but expecting different results."
— Albert Einstein
Twitter: @biggentleben
by biggentleben on Jun 29, 2011 4:31 PM EDT up reply actions
What do people think that the Yankees would give for Lowe? It doesn’t seem to me that they would do Gardner straight up for Lowe. We might have to give up Schafer and one of our good but not elite AA pitching prospects. I know that they can take on the salary, but I don’t think that they’d ignore the extent to which another year of that salary diminishes Lowe’s value in a trade.
I personally think that we should unload Lowe if we have the opportunity. It’s tough because he is a proven playoff pitcher and was great down the stretch this year, but you really only need 3 or 4 pitchers once the playoffs start, and you can’t really see him bouncing Jurrjens, Hanson, or Hudson out of the main rotation at this point. Beachy looks more than good enough to be a Number 4 in the playoffs. For the regular season, it looks like Minor would be an adequate replacement.
I'd ask for Eduardo Nunez right off the bat.
Not a top level prospect, but a guy who can replace Lugo now, give the team some much needed speed off the bench, and he can start at SS next season. What’s he gonna do in NY, except come off the bench for Jeter and A-Rod and Cano for the next five years?
A man can earn millions doing exactly that :)
by TBuzz on Jun 28, 2011 11:52 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Agreed!
I’d trade Lowe for Nunez. First as mentioned once the play-off’s start we’d only use likely 3 pitchers and I can’t see Lowe beating out Hanson, JJ, or Huddy righty now. Second you have to look at next year for these trades also and we don’t have a SS next year. Alex is a FA and should get a few good offers, Pastornicky is still in AA ball so the Braves don’t seem as if they are i a rush to get him ready.
Several people mentioned it
So, Ill say it here instead of replying to someone: am I the only one who isn’t impressed with Gardner? Everyone seems to lust for Gardner. I haven’t seem him play one bit, but judging by his stats, I don’t see what people find so impressive, especially not if it means giving up JJ or Tommy.
"He knows where he's throwing. If he didn't, there'd be dead bodies strewn all over Idaho." - Washington Senators scout on Walter Johnson
The cost is what bugs me there
I see basically Denard Span that’s going to cost a lot more than Span, even though Span is 6 months younger with nearly twice the pro experience and better stats. The New York hype machine has some people completely bonkers on this one.
"Insanity is doing the same thing, over and over again, but expecting different results."
— Albert Einstein
Twitter: @biggentleben
by biggentleben on Jun 30, 2011 9:31 AM EDT up reply actions
I assume you mean Gardner costs a lot more than Span?
http://sportsandgrits.blogspot.com/
by Mr. Sanchez on Jun 30, 2011 11:53 AM EDT up reply actions
Yeah
The inflection comes through much better when the phrase is spoken. It doesn’t read as smoothly. To write it better, the first sentence would say, “I see basically a Denard Span clone that will cost a lot more than Span himself to trade for.”
"Insanity is doing the same thing, over and over again, but expecting different results."
— Albert Einstein
Twitter: @biggentleben
by biggentleben on Jun 30, 2011 12:07 PM EDT up reply actions
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