SB Nation Atlanta Editor's Pick
The Ideal Braves Lineup: 1966-present
In the latest thread, mvhsbball asked the question-- what is your ideal Braves lineup? A couple of people responded in the comments with their all-time Braves lineups, and that got me curious-- what were the best single seasons, by position, in Atlanta history?
My only rule is that these must be seasons by Atlanta Braves, not Milwaukee or Boston Braves. So, 1966 to now is our timeframe.
I was surprised by a couple of the findings, but for the most part, these are really great players that you should not be surprised to see on this list. We'll start with the starting lineup.
(Note-- all WAR figures are, unless otherwise indicated, fWAR. The triple slash numbers for hitters are batting average, OBP, and SLG, for the uninitiated.)
Batting leadoff, it's...
1. Lonnie Smith, 1989 (.315/.415/.533) [LF]
Being born in 1991, I had no idea Lonnie Smith's 1989 would be the best season by a LF in Braves history. But it arguably was, as Smith added 25 stolen bases to his incredible .415 OBP. Throw in his 23 runs saved defensively, and he is a worthy first addition to the team, and he slots in perfectly as the leadoff man.
2. Chipper Jones, 1999 (.319/.441/.633) [3B]
Chipper deservedly won the MVP in '99, hitting 45 home runs, stealing 25 bases on 28 attempts, and reaching base 44% of the time. His 2008 season came close, but I'll give the edge to '99 because he played in 157 games, compared to 128 in '08. Either way, the combination of power, OBP, and speed makes '99 Chipper a perfect #2 hitter.
3. JD Drew, 2004 (.305/.436/.569) [RF]
Okay, so the obvious question is-- how could I have JD Drew over Hank Aaron? Well, Aaron's best seasons were in Milwaukee, and as I mentioned before, I'm not counting those. Drew's 2004, however, was incredible-- I don't think many people remember how good he was for us. He hit 31 home runs, got on base almost 44% of the time , and played phenomenal defense in right field, posting a 16.3 UZR. Sheffield's '03 came very close, but Drew's defensive contributions give him the edge.
4. Javy Lopez, 2003 (.328/.378/.687) [C]
In Javy's last season in Atlanta, he was one of the best players in baseball. He hit 43 home funs and drove in 109 in just 129 games, posting a 169 WRC+, good for 3rd in MLB behind Barry Bonds and Albert Pujols. The fact that it was from the Catcher position makes it that much more impressive. His absurd .687 slugging percentage and 43 homers make him a perfect cleanup hitter.
5. Andres Galarraga, 1998 (.305/.397/.595) [1B]
Galarraga signed with the Braves prior to the '98 season, and proved that he was not an illusion of Coors Field. He hit 44 home runs, drove in 121, and posted an OBP close to .400, good for the best season by a first baseman in Atlanta history. McGriff's 1994 is a close second, but he only played in 113 games, so I'll give the edge to the Big Cat.
6. Andruw Jones, 2005 (.263/.347/.575) [CF]
Jones's last great truly great season. As a 28 year old, Andruw had his best year, hitting 51 home runs, driving in 128, and playing some of the best defense in the history of the game. He was also extremely durable, missing only 2 games the entire season. While his '00 season came very close, I'll give the edge to '05 for the crazy power numbers. (As an aside, this outfield defense is insane-- Smith, Jones, and Drew each around 20 runs saved apiece.)
7. Marcus Giles, 2003 (.316/.390/.526) [2B]
In 2003, Giles went from being a part-time, light hitting middle infielder to being the best second baseman in the NL. His 7.0 WAR was tied for 7th (With teammate Javy Lopez) in MLB, behind only Barry Bonds, Albert Pujols, Alex Rodriguez, Gary Sheffield, Todd Helton, and Bret Boone (Really? Bret Boone?). Giles was a doubles machine, hitting 49 on the year, and added 21 home runs. He also played great defense, good for a 9.0 UZR, and added 14 SB for good measure. All in all, a really solid season from Giles, and definitely his best.
8. Greg Maddux, 1995 (1.63 ERA, 2.26 FIP, 209.2 innings) [P]
Yeah, I'm hitting the pitcher 8th. Optimized lineup construction FTW. Maddux was totally ridiculous in 1995, easily the best pitcher in the NL, and won the Cy Young in a landslide. He went 19-2, had an ERA well under 2.00, and helped lead the Braves to their only World Series victory in the 90s. This season barely beats out some other truly terrific ones, including Phil Niekro's 1978 and John Smoltz's 1996.
9. Jeff Blauser, 1997 (.308/.405/.482) [SS]
A truly underrated player, Jeff Blauser's final season in Atlanta was his best. Bluaser played in 151 games, showed solid pop with 17 home runs, and got on base more than 40% of the time. He also played average defense. Rafael Furcal may have had some flashier seasons, but none were as solid as Blauser in 1997.
And here's the rest of the starting rotation. After Maddux, we have...
2. Phil Niekro, 1978 (2.88 ERA, 2.76 FIP, 334.1 innings)
Yes, that says 334 innings, 38.1 higher than the next closest player (Jim Palmer, with 296). And Niekro was 39 years old. It's amazing that Niekro's best season came at such a late age, but he was incredible in '78, probably the best pitcher in the Majors. He only finished 6th in Cy Young voting, probably due to his 19-18 record, but he was more valuable than winner Gaylord Perry, posting a similar ERA (Perry's was 2.73) but throwing more than 80 more innings. Perry's largest edge was in the W-L column, posting a 21-6 record. But, as most fans know by know, W-L record is a very poor indicator of...well, anything. Niekro was the best pitcher in 1978, and had one of the best seasons in Atlanta history.
3. John Smoltz, 1996 (2.94 ERA, 2.64 FIP, 253.2 innings)
Smoltz was crazy good in '96, and won the NL Cy Yound award. Smoltz posted the lowest FIP in MLB, striking out a league-leading 9.79 per 9 innings, while only walking 1.95. Throw in the fact that he was third in the Majors in innings pitched, and Smoltz was perhaps the best pitcher in baseball that year. This was Smoltz's best year as a starter, and he is an unbelievable #3 starter for our imaginary team.
4. Tom Glavine, 1991 (2.55 ERA, 3.06 FIP, 246.2 innings)
Glavine had his best season in 1991, easily winning the NL Cy Young award. Though his fWAR was not the highest in the league, his bWAR was easily the best, at 7.4, nearly 2 wins better than the closest player (Dennis Martinez). The '91 season was obviously a wonderful ride for Braves fans, and Glavine's masterful pitching helped lead the Braves back into the playoffs for the first time since 1982.
5. Javier Vazquez, 2009 (2.87 ERA, 2.77 FIP, 219.1 innings)
Okay, well, those first 4 were easy. Finding the last man to round out the rotation was a little tougher. I initially went with Kevin Millwood here, but I was reminded in the comments that I forgot about a really obvious one-- Javier Vazquez in 2009. In his only year for Atlanta (and his last year before he suddenly forgot how to pitch), Vazquez was incredible, striking out nearly 10 per 9 innings while only walking 1.81. Frank Wren was roundly criticized for trading Vasquez, but after being traded to the Yankees, he suddenly lost 3 mph off of his fastball, and his ERA rose above 5.00. So the Braves even got rid of him at the right time.
And for good measure, we'll throw in a closer--
CL- John Smoltz, 2003 (1.12 ERA, 1.54 FIP, 45 SV)
I guess it's kind of cheating to have Smoltz listed twice, but I don't care-- to me, Smoltz the closer and Smoltz the starter are two different players. While Smoltz had 10 more saves in 2002, he was a better pitcher by a pretty significant margin in '03. Smoltz struck out 10.21 per 9 innings, walking a miniscule 1.12, and only gave up 2 home runs in 64.1 innings. Honestly, this is one of the best performances by a reliever in MLB history, and definitely the best by a Brave.
So, that's what I came up with. What does everyone else think? Am I crazy for leaving Hank Aaron out? Does McCann deserve a spot over Lopez? McGriff over Galarraga? Post your suggestions/criticisms below.
This FanPost does not express the views or opinions of Talking Chop.
55 comments
|
11 recs |
Do you like this story?
Comments
Good Fanpost
People are like at least I'm not that guy on stage. That guy on stage is like at least I'm not that guy in the looney bin. The guy in the looney bin are like at least I'm an orange
With the offense we had in the early and mid-2000’s, I still can’t believe we didn’t win another World Series.
Nice post. Rec’d.
"This is gonna feel so good getting this thing off my chest. That's what she said."
Twitter: @scottcoleman55
2003 is the big one
Javy Lopez went ape-shit, Gary Sheffield was crazy good, Marcus Giles and Rafael Furcal were superb at the top of the line-up, Chipper was Chipper, and Andruw Jones had a .277/.338/.513 line and was our fifth best hitter. 5 starters slugged over .500…compared to today, where only Hinske (and Ross and Mather, but Hinske is line-up staple) is slugging over .500, and he’s only a starter because of our injuries.
My buddy and I just decided that the braves would be set if we could get Matt Kemp, Jose Reyes, and Albert Pujols.
by willlinn on May 17, 2011 2:13 PM EDT
That was the year the starting pitching wasn't that good, though.
We never seemed to have a dominant offense and a dominant defense… of course, that’s really rare, so it’s no surprise, really.
"Yeah, and I have an enchanted jock strap." -- Karl Karlson
I now twitter as @junkstats and blog about made-up stats and general baseball stuff at JunkStats.
by Jacob Peterson on May 27, 2011 6:54 PM EDT up reply actions
damn yankees
That Heyward guy is pretty good.
by another simpsons avatar on May 27, 2011 6:13 PM EDT up reply actions
They only one in that time
"He knows where he's throwing. If he didn't, there'd be dead bodies strewn all over Idaho." - Washington Senators scout on Walter Johnson
i would chose sheffield over drew...
2003 stats .330/.419/.604
the exponent in the equation is a matter of preference and "fit" it can vary depending on what the user believes to yield the curve that best predicts a team’s ability to win games.
by Ivan the Great on May 20, 2011 12:31 PM VET
Sheffield hit slightly better
But Drew was a much better defender. I’ll take him.
My buddy and I just decided that the braves would be set if we could get Matt Kemp, Jose Reyes, and Albert Pujols.
by willlinn on May 17, 2011 2:13 PM EDT
yeah.. i guess you're right
but damn that was a good season… No other brave has had an offensive season like that ever since… and i guess those numbers often get overlooked, its because everyone in the lineup went crazy that year….
the exponent in the equation is a matter of preference and "fit" it can vary depending on what the user believes to yield the curve that best predicts a team’s ability to win games.
by Ivan the Great on May 20, 2011 12:31 PM VET
Some interesting finds
I like the call with Lonnie Smith. I really trace my fanhood back to 1991, so it’s somewhat of a shock to learn that Lonnie Smith was that good that season. Still, you need to have a very HEALTHY amount of skepticism about his defensive numbers that year because you’re pulling from TZ, which is not nearly as reliable as even UZR. It’s not even TZL at that point. Consider that his career fielding was worth 27 total runs, and 23 came in 1989, I think we really can ignore that number.
Interestingly, though, compared to the league context (looking at wRC+), Lonnie Smith’s batting line alone still trumps Gary Sheffield’s 2003, which I thought was a sure thing to be in here. If you’re being really strict about corner outfielders, not putting a RF in LF, then I’m fine with Lonnie Smith. But I’d much rather take Aaron’s 67 or 69 season and put that in left field.
And I thought for sure I’d see Furcal at shortstop. It’s good to remember that Jeff Blauser really did have some good years for us.
My buddy and I just decided that the braves would be set if we could get Matt Kemp, Jose Reyes, and Albert Pujols.
by willlinn on May 17, 2011 2:13 PM EDT
I'm with you...
that was about the time my fandom really took off (and my age hit double digits). Maybe it’s the World Series mishap, but I have a hard time thinking he was as good as he actually was.
http://sportsandgrits.blogspot.com/
by Mr. Sanchez on May 28, 2011 11:39 AM EDT up reply actions
This is ...
Off the cuff. (I will look back later). I recall hating Willie Montenez. A real hot dog,as I recall. Traded to Braves for Ruthven? Anyhow, had a 200 plus hit season for the Bravos. I became a huge fan of his. Didn’t Roadrunner Garr have a great year once? I am thinking better than the 1989 Skates season you mention.Finally, Dennis Menke? Didn’t he hit 20 HRs as a SS as an Atl Brave?
Awesome fanpost. Really good job.
I agree with almost every pick, but I’d switch out Lonnie Smith for Hammer’s ’71 season 1.079 and 47 Hrs? Yes, please! Hell, just lead off Drew and throw Hammer in the 3 hole (TWSS)
Didn’t Roadrunner Garr have a great year once?
In ’74, he had 214 hits, won a batting title and was an all-star. Bad thing about Garr was that he never took a walk. He hit .353 in ’74, but his OBP was .383
He led the league in AVG (.353), H (214), and 3B (17), with a slash of .353/.383/.503, and I think (but am not sure) that he mostly played LF. If so, I say he has to replace Lonnie Smith.
Wow...
Missed on Montenez big time! I know this is about best seasons,but Roadrunner had 200 plus hits in 3 of 4 seasons. Cannot recall the last 200 hit year by a Bravo. gonna check the “Big Boy’s” stats for any year….
Check out
Rico’s 1970 season. 1.10 OPS 175 hits 360 BA 101 rbi’s…..
I am finding it really hard to disagree strongly with anything in this post. But:
I might pick Javy Vazquez’s 2009 or Tim Hudson’s 2010 over that Millwood season for the 5th starter spot, but that’s picking nits, really.
Also, I prefer Andruw’s 2000 to his 2005, which I think was an overrated season. And I think you’re wrong to not put Hank Aaron in there. His 1969 was phenomenal: a near .400 OBP and a .600+ SLG in one of the worst years for hitters of all time. Nothing Drew or Sheffield did can really top that if you take eras into account.
If you adjust for era, Darrell Evans’ 1975 season is also better than Giles’ 2003.
Oh, and I think I’d take 2011 Jonny Venters for the closer’s spot. Seriously.
"Yeah, and I have an enchanted jock strap." -- Karl Karlson
I now twitter as @junkstats and blog about made-up stats and general baseball stuff at JunkStats.
Oops, I meant 1973 for that great Evans year.
"Yeah, and I have an enchanted jock strap." -- Karl Karlson
I now twitter as @junkstats and blog about made-up stats and general baseball stuff at JunkStats.
by Jacob Peterson on May 27, 2011 7:04 PM EDT up reply actions
You're right about Vazquez,
That totally slipped my mind. I’ll edit that in now.
The Aaron vs. Drew vs. Sheffield one is really close. Aaron’s ‘71 would definitely be my top pick, but he only played 60 games in right field, so I can’t really call him a right fielder. ‘69 was also really great— the 168 wRC+ compares favorably with Drew’s 163— but he was also only 9 of 19 on the basepaths, and that combined with Drew’s great defense made me give him the edge.
And I’m assuming you’re referring to Darrell Evans’ 1973, but he played third base, not second. And I gave the edge to Chipper.
Venters is incredible, he’d definitely get the set-up nod. But Smoltz was totally ridiculous. Wohlers had a great ’95, as well.
by Daniel McCracken on May 27, 2011 7:54 PM EDT up reply actions
Whoops on Evans' position. I knew that but for some reason put him at 2B
As for Hank, he’ll always be a right fielder in my mind, regardless of what happened his last few years. “only” 60 games is plenty for me to put him in there. And if you put him in left, I’d take him over Lonnie Smith, too.
"Yeah, and I have an enchanted jock strap." -- Karl Karlson
I now twitter as @junkstats and blog about made-up stats and general baseball stuff at JunkStats.
by Jacob Peterson on May 29, 2011 12:30 AM EDT up reply actions
No love for Davey Johnson's 40 HR?
http://sportsandgrits.blogspot.com/
by Mr. Sanchez on May 28, 2011 11:41 AM EDT up reply actions
Great season, no doubt,
but it just falls short for me.
"Yeah, and I have an enchanted jock strap." -- Karl Karlson
I now twitter as @junkstats and blog about made-up stats and general baseball stuff at JunkStats.
by Jacob Peterson on May 29, 2011 12:23 AM EDT up reply actions
They started testing for steroids.
Dead serious. Some of his later anger issues (which his brother also had…who also fell off they started testing for steroids), plus the fact that he produced a ton of power from a tiny frame, and then later fell off the earth, convince me he was juicing.
My buddy and I just decided that the braves would be set if we could get Matt Kemp, Jose Reyes, and Albert Pujols.
by willlinn on May 17, 2011 2:13 PM EDT
What about Murph?
"Tony Gwynn made sacrifices. Cal Ripken made sacrifices. I'm not sure Derek Jeter made sacrifices given the ungodly deep pockets the Yankees have." - Chipper Jones
by MBL1 on May 28, 2011 2:20 AM EDT via mobile reply actions
Great. Just great... The prosecution rests, we have no further comment your honor.
Don’t worry about older women until you turn 22. It’s called the Saltalamacchia.
by bwellnjonesco on May 19, 2011 4:13 PM PDT
Hank Aaron, 1971, RF
47 HR 118 RBI in only 139 Gs. .327/.410/.669 and led the league in OPS+ with 194.
talked about that further up, but
he actually played more games at first base than RF that year.
by Daniel McCracken on May 28, 2011 10:37 AM EDT up reply actions
LINEUP
OUTFIELD: Aaron, Murphy, A. JONES
INFIELD: McCann, Galaraga, D. Johnson, Furcal, Chipper
Starters: Maddux, Niekro, Glavine, Smoltz, B. Capra!
Closer: Wohlers
My SP would defeat 2011 Braves
SP. 1985 Pascual Perez 1-13 6.14 ERA
2008 Jo Jo Reyes 3-11 5.81 ERA
2010 Kenshin Kawakami 1-10 5.15 ERA
2006 Jorge Sosa 3-10 ERA 5.46
WOW!
I cant believe that youd leave Dale Murphy off the list.Since being a braves fan since i was 8,he was the only hitter that the braves had ..They would try to pitch around him but hed still make contact..And he was a better fielder than people think..Put him on the list man!!!!!!
Bob Horner
…would take exception to your comments
"Insanity is doing the same thing, over and over again, but expecting different results."
— Albert Einstein
Twitter: @biggentleben
by biggentleben on May 29, 2011 12:14 AM EDT up reply actions
Any all time list
…without Rafael Belliard and Bruce Benedict is not something I can endorse. Not to mention the glaring lack of Rick Mahler flowing locks or Keith Lockhart holding the infamous pictures.
"Insanity is doing the same thing, over and over again, but expecting different results."
— Albert Einstein
Twitter: @biggentleben
Lockhart
Im missing this reference to pictures.
"He knows where he's throwing. If he didn't, there'd be dead bodies strewn all over Idaho." - Washington Senators scout on Walter Johnson
The fact that Charles Thomas is not your LF made you lose all credibility
But no seriously, I loved Chucky T. Honestly one of my top 5 favorite Braves ever.
I’ve got Jack Johnson and Tom O’Leary waiting for ya, right here
Favorite all time?
I mean, he was fun, but he was here for maybe 3 minutes…
"He knows where he's throwing. If he didn't, there'd be dead bodies strewn all over Idaho." - Washington Senators scout on Walter Johnson
Ok, maybe its the me
But I couldn’t help but notice how many steriod era guys stood out. Not gonna name any names, but I count a total of 6 that raise my eyebrow in the list. Of that six, 3 I feel 100% were users, and three I would be extremely surprised if they were clean. Granted, prior to the 1990s (and the steriod era), we didn’t have many good teams, but still, it definately makes you think.
Yet,
even with “the era”, those guys stood out above the rest of the league enough to make this list as WAR is not a stat that measures pure numbers, but how those numbers relate to the rest of the league. Regardless, until one of the guys you’re 100% on ever admits to it or goes back in time and tests positive at the time of your surity, it’s basically assumptions and slander.
"Insanity is doing the same thing, over and over again, but expecting different results."
— Albert Einstein
Twitter: @biggentleben
by biggentleben on Jun 2, 2011 11:44 AM EDT up reply actions
I am interested who these 6 players you are 100% sure of. I count 2that I am fairly convinced used steroids… I’ll name them because my comments arent that important to those concerned .
Javy and Giles were most likely on steroids. I don’t think many people would argue that. There is a case for Andruw (but I don’t really buy it) and for Andres Gallaraga, but his career was so fluky again there is enough there to refute steroid use.
So i know you said you weren’t naming names, but i want to know
O and sry i am so late the party, I probably won’t get an answer.
"No. Lonely people mixing with one another? Breeding? Creating an even lonelier generation? You're not even allowing natural selection do its work. Pssh. You're like the guy who invented the seat belt."
Dwight Schrute
I know I'm lonely on this...
but Chipper in 99 wouldn’t shock me. I wouldn’t say he did, but considering the high point in power, Caminiti across the diamond, and to me what looked like a thicker, more muscular physique; well, I just wouldn’t be shocked if he did.
Giles seems a foregone conclusion around here. Blauser does as well. Then Javy seems high on the list. Big Cat could fit as well, considering the time.
Was there testing already in 04? Cause that could explain JD Drew’s career year and unusual good health.
Oh, and that Maddux guy was definitely juicing hard. Neikro too. No doubt about those two.
/last parapgraph is sarcasm.
//Or is it?
http://sportsandgrits.blogspot.com/
Chicks dig the long ball...
"Insanity is doing the same thing, over and over again, but expecting different results."
— Albert Einstein
Twitter: @biggentleben
I thought about the Maddux.Niekro joke, but I thought as a community we were above that feeble mindedness
;)
I don’t buy the JD Drew thing bc even a blind squirrel finds a nut, and I am referencing his health not his skill. He had a similar year, two years earlier.
I don;t know about Blauser, but I will defer to better judgment. And on the Big Cat I have already stated my rationalization of why he didn’t use, but I can see it going the other way…the fact is I don’t see anyone besides Giles and Javy that i would go so far as 100% (and even them I am not 100% convinced probably 95% convinced).
"No. Lonely people mixing with one another? Breeding? Creating an even lonelier generation? You're not even allowing natural selection do its work. Pssh. You're like the guy who invented the seat belt."
Dwight Schrute
Neikro was still effective in to his 50s...
no one lasts that long without help. No body. Like anyone can keep throwing his low 70s heat at his age, without the juice, come on!

And Blauser, according to others I’ve read on here, is 100% to them. Looking at his numbers in the 3 years prior, and two years post 97, it’s hard to disagree.
http://sportsandgrits.blogspot.com/
Actually, I only said I was convinced of 3, and 3 I wonder about.
The three I am convinced of are as follows, and in order of highest confidence.
1. Marcus Giles – For starters, he didn’t even look human. But also, the second strigent testing came into the game, he fell off the face of the planet, and did so at a relatively young age.
2. Javy Lopez – a 33 year old catcher hits 43 home runs in 2003 in the National League and playing half his games at Turner Field. I don’t buy it. Additionally, much like Giles, out of the league rather quickly after new testing is involved.
3. Andres Galaragga – a 38 year old hits 44 home runs, historically, a rare feat at any time outside of the steriod era. This one is a little more cloudy because his numbers were elevated by previously playing in Colorado.
The three guys I am highly suspicious about, again in order of those I question the most:
1. Chipper Jones – Lets face it, we have heard reports that as many as 80% of players were using during this period, so that alone at least raises an eyebrow. Additionally, Chipper had his biggest years prior to testing, however; I must conceed that he was also in his prime. Either way, its guilt by association or an unfortunate coincidence for Chipper. Lastly, this mysterious strained oblique injury seems to me to largely corelated to steriod use. Frankly, outside of baseball, have you ever heard of someone having this injury?
2. Andruw Jones – many of the same points, but the injuries were never there. His last big offensive season was right before testing, makes me wonder. My other theory on Andruw is that he is also about 4 years older than advertised, which makes his young break down a little easy to understand. Lets say he really is 4 years older than what he claims, that means a production decline started at the age of 35 versus the age of 31.
3. JD Drew – this largely falls in the guilt by association category. Fair or not, given the percentages I wonder. Mind you, I certainly don’t lose sleep over it.
I didn’t include pitchers, and even if I did there would really on be one that I would be even only slightly dubious of on the list above, and it wouldn’t be for steriod use but HGH. Unfortunately, we are aware that a lot of power pitchers were using, and the only power pitcher would Smoltz. I don’t think he did it, because HGH is alleged to help pitchers recover more quickly, but given the number of injuries Smoltz had, I don’t think he was using.
Don’t get me wrong, I am on the fence when it comes to PEDs, and I am certainly not condemming those that used. Given the environment at that time, basically, if you didn’t use you were at a significant disadvantage against those that did use. Additionally, it wouldn’t surprise if at somepoint, under a doctor’s guidance, we are all on performance enhancing drugs. However, on the statistical side, that era isn’t something we can completely ignore.










































