Braves Trades Of The Past: Elvis Andrus, Neftali Feliz, Matt Harrison, Beau Jones, and Jarrod Saltalamacchia for Mark Teixeira and Ron Mahay
by Scott Coleman on May 25, 2011 8:00 AM EDT
in Braves Trade News
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PrintIn 2007, the Braves made a move to win the World Series. Teams do it pretty often when they have an area of concern or weakness on their roster. Whether it was for Teixeira, C.C. Sabathia, Adrian Gonzalez, or Roy Halladay, if you want to acquire a proven superstar, you're going to have to give up a lot of young talent. The Braves gave up a lot in their trade with Texas on July 30th, 2007, but perhaps it wasn't as much as some think.
Elvis Andrus has already established himself as one of the better defensive shortstops in baseball, and he's just 22-years old. While his hitting has left something to be desired -- .266/.216/.333 in 2011, .266/.334/.333 career -- his impressive speed on the base paths helps make up for it at the top of the Rangers lineup. It remains to be seen if he'll be able to consistently post an OPS above .700 for an entire season, but as long as his stellar work in the field continues, he figures to stay in the Rangers lineup for at least the next few years.
Hindsight is 20-20, but at the time, the Braves felt like they were set at the shortstop position with Yunel Escobar and Brent Lillibridge. They'll miss Andrus the most among any of the players sent to Texas.
Neftali Feliz was a young kid who could throw hard at the time of the trade, and he's turned out to be quite the closer for Texas. It remains to be seen if he'll end up in the rotation or not, but the kid can flat out light up a radar gun. The 2010 Rookie of the Year for the AL will be missed in Atlanta, but the back-end of our bullpen seems to be doing pretty well without him.
Matt Hairrison came to Texas as a pretty highly regarded pitching prospect, but hasn't quite lived up to the hype thus far. He's struggled at the Major League level (20-14, 5.05 ERA, 5.01 FIP, 4.98 K/9, 3.83 BB/9), though he isn't a horrible option for the Rangers at the end of their rotation. He'd probably be seventh or eighth option on the Braves starting rotation depth chart, though, and he'd only see time in Atlanta if a complete emergency came up. Not too much lost here.
Pitcher Beau Jones spent a few seasons with the Rangers Minor League clubs before making the move to Houston. He's currently pitching in triple-A and might turn out into a 5th starter or long-man in the bullpen one day.
Jarrod Saltalamacchia is an interesting fellow. He didn't have a spot in Atlanta with Brian McCann holding things down behind the plate, but he was such a promising prospect in the Minor Leagues that the Braves hated to see him go. The guy who "headlined" the deal has yet to do much in the Major Leagues, and he's currently with the Boston Red Sox.
The Braves brought in Teixeira to solidify the lineup on a team they thought was capable of winning a World Series. Tex certainly didn't disappoint; He hit an incredible .317/.404/.615 in the final two months after coming over from Texas, and if Chipper and Renteria didn't get hurt down the stretch run, that team makes the playoffs with no problems and is the likely favorite to win it all in the NL.
Many figured the Braves would try to re-sign Teixeira in the next 12 months with Andruw Jones departing for free agency in the near future, but the Braves Front Office refused to pay the All-Star. He hit well in 2008 (.283/.390/.512), but after the team fell out of contention, he was eventually sent to Los Angeles of Anaheim for Casey Kotchman and Stephen Marek.
Ron Mahay spent just two months in Atlanta and struggled with control more often than not. He pitched 23 innings for us down the stretch and then left via free agency.
Trade Grade: C-
The Braves made a big move to win now, and it backfired on them. It happens on occasion in baseball. Still though, this trade still isn't the end of the world. It feel like fans unfairly associate this trade with the one with Anaheim. They were completely different and both had different circumstances. You honestly cannot tell me that you thought, "Meh. Teixeira is nice, but I'd rather have a bunch of 18-year old kids who may or may not make the Major Leagues one day." at the time of the trade. You were ecstatic, and so were the Braves players and coaches.
Elvis Andrus' glove will be missed, but he's certainly not a star by any means. Neftali Feliz would be a nice addition to the bullpen, but Craig Kimbrel and Jonny Venters seem to be doing just fine out there in the 8th and 9th innings. Jarrod Saltalamacchia hasn't done much in the Major Leagues, and our catcher now seems to be pretty decent. Matt Hairrison is (at best) a decent #4 starter and he would currently be in Gwinnett if he still resided with the Braves. Same goes for Beau Jones, only he'd be in Mississippi.
Teixeira was great in Atlanta and it's the Front Office's fault for not offering him a large contract. This trade certainly wasn't a good one, but it really wasn't a complete disaster.
When I look back on it, I can only think, "What if...". What if Edgar Renteria doesn't sprain an ankle? What if Chipper's oblique doesn't start acting up on him down the stretch run? What if the bullpen doesn't fall apart in August and September? That team had the potential to be special, and at the time, acquiring Mark Teixeira was arguably worth the risk.
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Disagree with many of the things here
First of all, his name is not “Matt Hairston” it is Matt Harrison.
Secondly, if Feliz was pitching for the Braves he is likely a starter.
Also, the main reason for failing in 2007 was not the injuries or the relief corps. It was the godawful starting rotation. We had Hudson, Smoltz, and then no one. We were never the favorite and likely wouldn’t have made the playoffs even without the injuries.
by DreamWithinADream on May 25, 2011 8:13 AM EDT via mobile reply actions
Yeah, FML on the Pam, Pan “Hairston” “Harrison” thing.
"This is gonna feel so good getting this thing off my chest. That's what she said."
Twitter: @scottcoleman55
by Scott Coleman on May 25, 2011 12:12 PM EDT up reply actions
lazy journalist.
Don’t worry about older women until you turn 22. It’s called the Saltalamacchia.
by bwellnjonesco on May 19, 2011 4:13 PM PDT
by Klemson Krash on May 25, 2011 12:27 PM EDT up reply actions
Even if he is a starter...
where would we put him…granted he’s good but we’ve got one of the best rotations in baseball right now along with 3 of the top pitching prospects in the game. We took a risk…a risk worth taking
"What happened yesterday is history. What happens tomorrow is a mystery. What we do today makes a difference - the precious present moment."- Nick Saban
by Richie Grogan on May 25, 2011 2:58 PM EDT up reply actions
They definitely hold off on Lowe/Kawakami
Which is kind of the point.
by DreamWithinADream on May 26, 2011 3:04 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Harrison would have the same effect imo...
he’s not a front line guy, so we may still get Lowe, but with the extra depth, there’d be no need for Kawakami if you’ve got Vazquez and Jurrjens 2-3, with Lowe coming in as the 1, and then a mix of Morton, Reyes, Hanson, Glavine, Harrison, and maybe some cheap vets able to fill out the 4 and 5 spots.
http://sportsandgrits.blogspot.com/
Harrison is a mcuh better argument than Feliz in this respect...
Feliz was in rookie ball at the time of the trade…no way he’s cracking the 2009 rotation from rookie ball with only a year and a half of minor league seasoning. He didn’t make the Rangers until August of ’09 as a reliever.
Harrison was already in AA at the time of the trade, could have spent 2008 in AAA and possibly make the squad in ’09.
-C
It’s rough to sit through these games and not have someone that can’t hit a Ball?
by cthabeerman on May 26, 2011 11:57 AM EDT up reply actions
To put it in perspective...
Feliz making the Braves rotation in 2009 would equate to Teheran making the rotation at the beginning of this season, as far as minor league progression is concerned.
While such meteoric advancement is certainly possible, it would have been incredibly unwise to depend on that working out.
-C
It’s rough to sit through these games and not have someone that can’t hit a Ball?
by cthabeerman on May 26, 2011 12:50 PM EDT up reply actions
Good point...
but the idea that we’d have still signed Lowe, but not KK, and gone with a Lowe, Vasquez, Jurrjens 1-2-3, while letting the plethora of kids battle it out for the 4 and 5 spot (Morton was ready, as was Jojo, Hanson was close, Medlen was close, Glavine was still on board, not to mention the many vets who signed 1 yr deals that winter). Harrison spent all of 2007 in AA, and was cracking the Rangers rotation by the summer of 2008. His #s weren’t good, but he had a CG shutout that September and 8 innings of shutout work that August. If he was already making the Rangers rotation, and had spent over a year in AA, there’s no reason to think he couldn’t have been in AAA for almost all of 2008 (unless needed in a call up) and slotted for the 4th/5th spot with Morton and Reyes until Hanson was ready to take over, with the best of those 3 moving to the 5 spot when Red got the call.
http://sportsandgrits.blogspot.com/
Or we could have signed KK and not Lowe. Or we could have signed no one and would have been terrible in 2009.
-C
It’s rough to sit through these games and not have someone that can’t hit a Ball?
Not if we'd signed Wolf and Pavano...
/opens can of worms
//slowly backs away
http://sportsandgrits.blogspot.com/
Yes, I should have realized our front office had the powers of foresight. Carl Pavano amassed 1.1 WAR in the four years preceding…but I’m sure you saw his reemergence coming.
If you want to make your argument sound better (needlessly), you may want to consider not using information that makes you sound rather stupid.
-C
It’s rough to sit through these games and not have someone that can’t hit a Ball?
Sarcasm fail?
cause yours sure doesn’t seem to have it. Perhaps you missed my point, which was Harrison eliminates the need for KK as a potential 4th starter. And I’ve said all along that regardless of 20/20 foresight, with the kids on the way, imo we should have signed one of those guys conducive to a one year deal that off season, of which there were several with good track records. Not so much Pavano, but Jon Garland (consistent around 200 innings and an ERA in the 4s, not ideal but not bad for a 4th starter in a single season) and Randy Wolf (who had a bit of a Pavano like past with some success early but before breaking out again in 09 had fallen on a long run of hard times). There was 4 or 5 others I’m forgetting. But again, I’d rather not get in to this can of worms, so I’ll stop here and just blame sarcasm failure on one of the other.
http://sportsandgrits.blogspot.com/
F@$k
Mark Teixeira
"I wasn’t thinking about it. That’s the worst celebration of all time. I didn’t know what to do. I got lost in the moment." - Brian McCann
by HansonManCrush on May 25, 2011 8:21 AM EDT via mobile reply actions
Why ask why?
Fuck Teixeira
"So he basically called me a Jew. I was confused because I'm black and Methodist."
by rocket8188 on May 25, 2011 8:37 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I may be wrong, but i think the Braves made him an offer in Spring Training and he shot it down.
Coming soon: winningugly visits Atlanta, takes dump in royhobbs’ Braves hat.
Yeah, they did make an offer in ST of 2008. Boras advised him not to take it in order to test the open market. The 2008 team went on to lost 90 games. There’s no possible way the Braves could have signed him. I don’t know what mvhs was referring to.
That Heyward guy is pretty good.
by another simpsons avatar on May 25, 2011 8:57 AM EDT up reply actions
Also, why you bringin’ up old shit?
Coming soon: winningugly visits Atlanta, takes dump in royhobbs’ Braves hat.
only if they are chocolate coated.
Don’t worry about older women until you turn 22. It’s called the Saltalamacchia.
by bwellnjonesco on May 19, 2011 4:13 PM PDT
by Klemson Krash on May 25, 2011 10:45 AM EDT up reply actions
or gummy.
If we can land [Stephen Drew], I will give FW a bj.
~justincredubil02
by king of games on May 25, 2011 10:47 AM EDT up reply actions
or marshmallow…
Don’t worry about older women until you turn 22. It’s called the Saltalamacchia.
by bwellnjonesco on May 19, 2011 4:13 PM PDT
by Klemson Krash on May 25, 2011 11:00 AM EDT up reply actions
"This is gonna feel so good getting this thing off my chest. That's what she said."
Twitter: @scottcoleman55
by Scott Coleman on May 25, 2011 12:13 PM EDT up reply actions
I thought this was looked upon the same way as rosterbation. I could only imagine the destruction had this exact story been posted as a Fanpost by a random TCer.
If TC is attempting a new “Trades of the Past” feature, they should have started with the Surhoff deal or some other road less traveled..
Lady: What?!? How did HE get to Heaven?
GOD: Oh, he was in a different area code, so technically it wasn't cheating..
This is the second post of this type...
Don’t worry about older women until you turn 22. It’s called the Saltalamacchia.
by bwellnjonesco on May 19, 2011 4:13 PM PDT
by Klemson Krash on May 25, 2011 9:01 AM EDT up reply actions
I missed the first one, which makes this more clear. I wasn’t sure this was a series and thought it was just an excuse to get the Tex deal on the front page again. I apologize…
Lady: What?!? How did HE get to Heaven?
GOD: Oh, he was in a different area code, so technically it wasn't cheating..
by bwellnjonesco on May 25, 2011 10:23 AM EDT up reply actions
no apology needed. :-)
Just wanted you to know.
Don’t worry about older women until you turn 22. It’s called the Saltalamacchia.
by bwellnjonesco on May 19, 2011 4:13 PM PDT
by Klemson Krash on May 25, 2011 10:45 AM EDT up reply actions
"This is gonna feel so good getting this thing off my chest. That's what she said."
Twitter: @scottcoleman55
by Scott Coleman on May 25, 2011 12:13 PM EDT up reply actions
The perspective may not be appreciated by most but...
I appreciate seeing things like this in retrospective. Definitely living in the past but IMHO, it’s a part of Braves history and hopefully our FO reads everything we write (which is obvious since Schafer was in the one hole yesterday) and remembers the past… It may not have been the greatest trade ever and having Elvis Andrus would be beautiful right now… And we probably wouldn’t have invested heavily in Derek Lowe or Kenshin Kawakami but… it’s the past, if we try to forget it, we are bound to repeat it.
I don’t agree with everything said up there but again, great perspective from a lazy journalist… Look forward to future installments.
Don’t worry about older women until you turn 22. It’s called the Saltalamacchia.
by bwellnjonesco on May 19, 2011 4:13 PM PDT
which is obvious since Schafer was in the one hole yesterday
Yeah, you keep thinking that. ;)
Most people use statistics the way a drunk would use a lamppost—for support, and not for illumination.
www.duwanis.com
Yeah, talking about the past during the season is worthwhile. Guess there isn’t enough going on presently to take up front page space.
by CharlotteChop on May 25, 2011 9:27 AM EDT up reply actions
Are you really complaining about have more content rather than less?
by Sir Stealth on May 25, 2011 10:10 AM EDT up reply actions
Does more automatically mean better quality? These TOTP posts, IMO (which means nothing), are great fan fodder for off season when there really is nothing to talk about. It’s stupid on my part to even care but just throwing shit out there waiting for it to stick for the sake of pageviews or additional content doesn’t add to the quality of the blog.
by CharlotteChop on May 25, 2011 10:13 AM EDT up reply actions
Those are some pretty hefty assumptions about why the content was created
and as I recall, the first TOTP post was an experiment that was received well.
Most people use statistics the way a drunk would use a lamppost—for support, and not for illumination.
www.duwanis.com
I’m all for people liking it. I don’t. I think there is better material out there regarding current Braves events.
I’m not saying stop it. But hey, I might be in the minority and by god, I must be heard.
by CharlotteChop on May 25, 2011 10:19 AM EDT up reply actions
OK, you've been heard.
:)
Most people use statistics the way a drunk would use a lamppost—for support, and not for illumination.
www.duwanis.com
I will always stand up for the rights of bad trades no matter how long ago.
by CharlotteChop on May 25, 2011 10:20 AM EDT up reply actions
The right to never be talked about again?
Most people use statistics the way a drunk would use a lamppost—for support, and not for illumination.
www.duwanis.com
Speaking about never to be talked about again...
I recently read a story about a Japanese pitcher who took a large contract with a team after much hype and fanfare. Once in the states, they started out great but once the league caught up to them…resisted making changes to their delivery. Now the team that signed them regrets the deal and are in effect eating a large salary.
(of course I was referring to Daisuke Matsuzaka…who else did you think I was talking about?)
here I was thinking Hideo Nomo would make his appearance
in this thread…
Don’t worry about older women until you turn 22. It’s called the Saltalamacchia.
by bwellnjonesco on May 19, 2011 4:13 PM PDT
by Klemson Krash on May 25, 2011 10:45 AM EDT up reply actions
Or...
Ichiro Suzuki….. oh wait…
Don’t worry about older women until you turn 22. It’s called the Saltalamacchia.
by bwellnjonesco on May 19, 2011 4:13 PM PDT
by Klemson Krash on May 25, 2011 10:59 AM EDT up reply actions
Kei Igawa
I thought hurricane season was over........
by bravesguy311 on May 25, 2011 2:24 PM EDT up reply actions
Then fanpost it
And please stop playing armchair editor and actually talk about the Braves or at least baseball instead of how you think the blog should be run. It’s easy to criticize other people who put themselves out there in writing, so why don’t you give it a shot, if you think there’s a lot of better things to be discussing? Then you’ll be heard, any maybe for something better than this.
No wonder nobody likes you, Tuttle... everything's a (Pujols) damn debate.
Fair, I will leave it alone. If the content is posted, we should talk about the content, otherwise it’s a wasted post.
by CharlotteChop on May 25, 2011 10:43 AM EDT up reply actions
Then talk about the content
And not how much it doesn’t belong. I don’t recall seeing you in 2007 or 2008 when the trade occurred and was beaten into the ground the first 50 times, and maybe it’s because I haven’t read every single comment over the last five years, but I have no recollection of what your stance on the trade is/was, how you may have felt when the fans gave him a standing O when he arrived at the park, and the sensation of his first-game homer, or any idea if you’re potentially a detractor of it from the start, or someone who learned to hate it upon the emergency of the traded chips, or what not. Because I’ve never actually seen you talk about the particular content.
No wonder nobody likes you, Tuttle... everything's a (Pujols) damn debate.
I wasn’t a member of the site then. I found the site at some point after moving to Charlotte in ’07 trying to find a place to talk about the Braves. I found that place, and I comment here regularly because for the most part the posts by the editors of this site are quality and add to my knowledge and I like the discussion generated by it.
I don’t care about the trade now b/c it happened three years ago. Everything that happened from it is a sunk cost and the Braves moved on and lost very little if anything because of it. If Yunel panned out like he could and should have then there is no issue of packaging Elvis Andrus. So all in all, I couldn’t care less about the trade b/c it happened three years ago and the organization has completely transformed since then.
by CharlotteChop on May 25, 2011 11:08 AM EDT up reply actions
I agree
Thanks for letting me know your opinion on it. But I do agree, that pretty much every limb from this ended up in a loss, which is very unfortunate. The biggest loss I always felt was Andrus, but considering how long it’s taken for Salty to show some life again, and IMO Feliz’s mis-use in the bullpen, I can live with those losses. Harrison and Jones seemed to have fulfilled all predictions of being fringe, at best.
DeVall vanished, killing the Mahay branch, and Kotchman-to-LaRoche-to-no arb, therefore no comp pick is a kill, and Marek going down, pretty much effectively sinks everything.
If we don’t play the what-if game from time to time, we wouldn’t be much for sports fans, would we?
No wonder nobody likes you, Tuttle... everything's a (Pujols) damn debate.
I guess the way back machine has its time and place. It definitely is fun to play the what if game. And if not for TC, I wouldn’t pay as much attention as I do to the lingering effects of trades.
I always felt that for that particular trade, if the Braves did not win anything that year then the trade was a bust b/c of the projections of the talent being given up. So, to me, almost immidiately it was a bust. Everything that happened after that was very hard to recover the failure to win in 07 and the subsequent dump for Kotchman. It stung, but it is sunk. Marek was poised to give the Braves some payoff starting this season, but we saw that derailment. Hopefully after TJ he is not forgotten quickly.
I think one of the most interesting things to think about is how Feliz turned out. The Braves almost certainly would not have messed with his future for a short, one year fix. They would have either developed him into the closer (and losing Kimbrel in the weeds) or developed him into a starter and potentially not signing Lowe. The Braves are very adept at slotting pitchers for starter or reliever. Just like they aren’t going to mess with Teheran in the bullpen, they wouldn’t have hem hawed around on Feliz. Medlen is the exception to the bullpen or starter rule for the Braves, and almost certainly barring long term injury to a starter he will be traded (for someone else to figure out) or be in the pen. IMO of course.
by CharlotteChop on May 25, 2011 11:42 AM EDT up reply actions
a visit from the basement dweller!
See… I would fanpost something, but I don’t have appropriate training in how to do it intelligently… That and I’m not that smart so I couldn’t pacghobball it… I will continue to rely on you guys to give me forums to communicate my wonderful ideas. :-) I’m smart enough to post a response… most of the time
Don’t worry about older women until you turn 22. It’s called the Saltalamacchia.
by bwellnjonesco on May 19, 2011 4:13 PM PDT
by Klemson Krash on May 25, 2011 10:44 AM EDT up reply actions
This.
I agree completely.
"This is gonna feel so good getting this thing off my chest. That's what she said."
Twitter: @scottcoleman55
by Scott Coleman on May 25, 2011 12:33 PM EDT up reply actions
Ron Mahay wasn't that bad
It’s not so much he had poor control its the simple fact that the decimated pitching staff led to him pitching to more RHBs than he should have been. He dominated LHBs all of 2007, and overall, he still delivered 25 clean appearances out of 30, which isn’t bad at all.
In hind-sight Ron Mahay turned into the drafting of Brett DeVall, who hasn’t amounted to anything there, so it still concludes with a sunk conclusion, but I wouldn’t say he was at all bad for the Braves in the short time he was here. The starting pitching is what did the team in, as was pointed out earlier.
No wonder nobody likes you, Tuttle... everything's a (Pujols) damn debate.
The starting pitching is what did the team in
This has been my entire argument against this trade for a long time. We were extremely woeful in starting pitching, and this trade did nothing to address that problem. It’s like having a broken leg and broken arm, and getting the leg in a cast while ignoring the arm, then wondering why things still hurt. We paid a championship chasing price, without having a championship chasing roster afterwards. Getting Tex may have helped, and the players we acquired were improvements, but it was never going to push us over the top due to the holes in the rotation. Because of those holes, the improvements were empty improvements imo, and the organization would have been better served using these pieces in other ways (be it in the organization, or through other trades).
http://sportsandgrits.blogspot.com/
Wow...
Some are not too happy with this series of posts. I like them. Why not spice up the site some? Does everything have to be about the current season? If I only want that, I can read boxscores.
As far as the trade, I liked it, and while I’m certainly in the minority, I still don’t mind the trade. Other than Andrus, I don’t care about any of the players…and Andrus isn’t amazing. How were the Braves to know Tex was going to shoot down a fair offer? When a player’s primary objective is to make money, the Braves have little chance.
"Insert witty and/or funny quote here" ~ The Person Who Spoketh Said Quote.
What was the series or offers?
I know the Braves lost out on a sealed bid to the Yankees (along with Baltimore, LAA, etc.) and that we came in $2M less on average per year. But what was on the table before that?
As I ponder, I’m imagining a lineup where the 3-4-5 was Chipper, Tex, and Mac. Not too shabby…
by TBuzz on May 25, 2011 9:19 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
No shit.
I thought it would be something fun to do. Start with the Jurrjens and Tex deals and then work down to the McGriff, Smoltz, etc. deals.
I guess not.
"This is gonna feel so good getting this thing off my chest. That's what she said."
Twitter: @scottcoleman55
by Scott Coleman on May 25, 2011 12:15 PM EDT up reply actions
We just need a picture of Scott flipping off everybody so we can post that then.
by dunnytwogloves on May 25, 2011 12:20 PM EDT up reply actions
If you give up on this...
I will lay the biggest blog beatdown of all time… The Administration and all of it’s wrath will come down on your and make you regret your decision…
Word of advice, don’t let us down. :-)
Don’t worry about older women until you turn 22. It’s called the Saltalamacchia.
by bwellnjonesco on May 19, 2011 4:13 PM PDT
by Klemson Krash on May 25, 2011 12:29 PM EDT up reply actions
LOL
You always make me laugh. Good stuff KK…the best KK we’ve ever known on the blog.
/preparesforjustincredubil02attack
"This is gonna feel so good getting this thing off my chest. That's what she said."
Twitter: @scottcoleman55
by Scott Coleman on May 25, 2011 12:33 PM EDT up reply actions
It is fun to read and discuss
People will bitch about anything. If you didn’t do these, they’d bitch “why don’t we have more front page posts!?”
"I want to be remembered as an ambassador of Penn State University. I want people to remember me not only athletically but for my character too. It’s important that I play well, but I want people to remember me for who I was as a person." ~Silas Redd
Where is that dead horse picture?
When can we expect the Trades of the Past for Dan Uggla post?
I know you’re kidding but…
What if we did that 2 months into the Tex deal? We would have given Schuerholtz an A+ on the deal and erected a statue in the fan plaza…
by TBuzz on May 25, 2011 9:31 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Can you erect a statue and then bury it? That’s what would happen to Uggla right now. Maybe the TOTP for Nate McLouth is more relevant?
by CharlotteChop on May 25, 2011 9:36 AM EDT up reply actions
Not to beat my own dead horse...
It’s been 2 months…relax. This “instant gratification” thing is silly. We know what Uggla can do, we know how little we gave up in return. In the context of this post, we get a guy at just under $13MM per who can (and will) crush plus now we’re sitting with a young 1B who’s better defensively…instead of a single Teixeira who would have cost $18MM back in 2008.
Ah – you aren’t following me. I am not hammering the Uggla trade or the McLouth trade. My sarcasm font isn’t bold enough. My opinion, which matters zero, is that these posts belong in the off season or on the side in the FP/ FS realm.
by CharlotteChop on May 25, 2011 9:45 AM EDT up reply actions
Sometimes we need a break from predictable routine
And Scott’s posts like this, as well as Jacob’s statistical anomaly posts are good at deviating from the current array of dead horses, and get us talking about something else, be it other dead horses, or horses that are still on the trucks to the glue factory. A little bit of variety doesn’t hurt anyone.
No wonder nobody likes you, Tuttle... everything's a (Pujols) damn debate.
Agree
I honestly don’t read everything posted on this site.
However, I don’t feel the need to go into each post and comment about why I hate said post…
Don’t read the post. Easy as pie.
"Insert witty and/or funny quote here" ~ The Person Who Spoketh Said Quote.
well i only read it so i can make a dumb snarky post about it.
by CharlotteChop on May 25, 2011 10:04 AM EDT up reply actions
/snickers
you said snarky…. I like that word… i’ve used it at least 20 times today… it makes me laugh.
Don’t worry about older women until you turn 22. It’s called the Saltalamacchia.
by bwellnjonesco on May 19, 2011 4:13 PM PDT
by Klemson Krash on May 25, 2011 10:40 AM EDT up reply actions
If you’ve seen people in the past get told not to bring a certain subject up and the people that told them to not bring that subject up, bring that subject up themselves, then you have the right to subject them to the subject that was brought up back when bringing the subject was thought to be a subject that should not be brought up.
Lady: What?!? How did HE get to Heaven?
GOD: Oh, he was in a different area code, so technically it wasn't cheating..
by bwellnjonesco on May 25, 2011 10:10 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
LOL...
While I disagree. I’m recommending this. Why? I believe you used five different words total in this. Awesome.
"Insert witty and/or funny quote here" ~ The Person Who Spoketh Said Quote.
I'm liking the multiple uses of the word subject...
Very well played Mr. jonesco
Don’t worry about older women until you turn 22. It’s called the Saltalamacchia.
by bwellnjonesco on May 19, 2011 4:13 PM PDT
by Klemson Krash on May 25, 2011 10:46 AM EDT up reply actions
Yes? Arrrrrrr you going to ask me a question?
Lady: What?!? How did HE get to Heaven?
GOD: Oh, he was in a different area code, so technically it wasn't cheating..
by bwellnjonesco on May 25, 2011 12:39 PM EDT up reply actions
Re Jacob: His statiscal anomaly posts are almost always directly related to current events compared to similar types of events of the past. They are very insightful and contribute great analysis based on statistical evidence.
by CharlotteChop on May 25, 2011 10:09 AM EDT up reply actions
We didn’t give up much for Uggla- 1 yr of Omar and a decent LOOGY.
The real concern is the contract.
Interesting, the FO is always in lose-lose situations if you constantly underbid for superstar talent (Teixeira) and lose…but then when you do pull the trigger on a deal for one (Uggla)…you get hammered for giving away too many dollars and years.
by TBuzz on May 25, 2011 10:46 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I liked this post.
Well done.
Official MCM Hater!
A picture of Jake Locker in a Titan jersey?
"My iPod background now. Replaced the girlfriend. She won't be mad."
Thank you very much.
"This is gonna feel so good getting this thing off my chest. That's what she said."
Twitter: @scottcoleman55
by Scott Coleman on May 25, 2011 12:15 PM EDT up reply actions
Seriously…this trade happened a while ago and there are still posts about it on here? I mean, can’t we just let it go? it happened, we moved on, and it’s not like our farm system is gutted forever because of this trade…
but it was a C- Trade!!! Gahhhhhhhhh!
by CharlotteChop on May 25, 2011 10:14 AM EDT up reply actions
In fairness...
Wouldn’t the appropriate time to discuss a trade be around 3 years or more down the line?
As a fan of UGA football, we’re routinely ranked in the top 10 in recruiting…In retrospect, many of the stud recruiting classes years later look, well, not studly.
"Insert witty and/or funny quote here" ~ The Person Who Spoketh Said Quote.
Oh, but this year's class...
Man.
We’re winning it all this year!
"Insert witty and/or funny quote here" ~ The Person Who Spoketh Said Quote.
See that's the problem right there...
You expect to win it all EVERY year (you and about 6 other SEC teams). Poor Mark Richt…never has such a good coach endured so much second-guessing.
As a Tech fan, we believe in underpromise and overdeliver :)
(that is obviously not directed at you, but the very local lunatic fringe of the Big Red machine)
As a WVU fan
WVU owns both your schools!
by TCfromDubVee on May 25, 2011 11:03 AM EDT up reply actions
Pray tell sir...
how? At producing such fine NFL-level talent as Pacman Jones and Pat White?
Sssshhhh, don't make him mad.
He might set fire to your couch.
I thought it would be a series of posts...
But never mind.
"This is gonna feel so good getting this thing off my chest. That's what she said."
Twitter: @scottcoleman55
by Scott Coleman on May 25, 2011 12:16 PM EDT up reply actions
I was worried that this post would just open up the can of worms all over again, but you will never hear me complain about more content put on the site rather than less. I thought the description of the trade was very fair. It obviously didn’t work out, but I still think that it was the right move to make at the time.
The problem I had at the time with the trade was that it was painfully obvious to me that the Braves would not be able to re-sign Teixeira and this was nothing more than a potentially very expensive rental. I really don’t get how the fans could have honestly thought that re-signing him was even a possibility. There was not even a hint that he was going to be willing to take the kind of discount necessary to be signed here. And Schuerholz had a horrible relationship with Boras so this really shouldn’t have come as any surprise that Teixeira didn’t want to re-sign here.
I find it odd that Schuerholz set out to fix the 2 big problems on the team, 1B and relief pitching, and he got guys who did exactly that and then the starting pitching just absolutely collapsed and took the team down. Bad luck I guess.
Let's discuss...
Trading for Rogers Hornsby in 1928 and then trading him away after the season.
"Insert witty and/or funny quote here" ~ The Person Who Spoketh Said Quote.
Can't believe we didn't sign him.
Most people use statistics the way a drunk would use a lamppost—for support, and not for illumination.
www.duwanis.com
He was our manager, too...
Rumor has it he asked himself to bunt too much.
"Insert witty and/or funny quote here" ~ The Person Who Spoketh Said Quote.
So, if my memory serves correctly…Feliz was more of a throw in on this deal. Harrison was battling a few injuries and the Rangers wanted some insurance in case Harrison made those nagging injuries a habit. Usually, the throw ins of these deals are part of a package that the team can chose a player from. Which other players do you think could of been a part of this package the Rangers chose from?
Lady: What?!? How did HE get to Heaven?
GOD: Oh, he was in a different area code, so technically it wasn't cheating..
A Fine Trade
but it would’ve been a great trade had the Braves made the playoffs. They thing I complain about it the trade of Tex to the Angels. Terrible deal.
totally agree
I’m guessing the FO viewed Kotchman as a long term answer at 1B. He’d had a solid year in 2006 (essentially his rookie season) and was in the midst of a fine sophomore season Kotchman, was viewed as a .300/.380/.450 hitter who could add 15-20 HR.
It is especially bothering that Wren was unable to get anything else except a minor league relief pitcher. Looking at 2-3 month rentals, it’s very rare that teams can get much more than a top prospect and a mid range/lower end prospect. The only recent comparison is the C.C. Sabathia deal, and the Indians received a similar package:
Laporta was a top prospect though much further away and not as highly regarded defensively than Kotchman,
Rob Bryson’s ceiling was and still is a middle reliever, Zach Jackson was a throw in. Really the only other legit prospect the Indians recieved was Michael Brantley.
Essentially the Braves put all their eggs in the Casey Kotchman basket, and while he wasn’t awful, he actually regressed from his 2006, early 2007 form.
If nothing else
this article has helped me decide what other bloggers I find annoying.
I definitely would have loved to have Feliz and Andrus still here, but again, you have to give up talent to get talent back. Although, it is very fun to imagine what our bullpen would look like (assuming we would have kept Feliz there) with Kimbrel, Venters, and Feliz. The very thought sends chills down my spine.
It was a particularly small egg...thats why I asked.
by thenightstallion on May 25, 2011 11:07 AM EDT reply actions
this article has helped me decide what other bloggers I find annoying.
But I thought we were e-BFFs??
"This is gonna feel so good getting this thing off my chest. That's what she said."
Twitter: @scottcoleman55
by Scott Coleman on May 25, 2011 12:17 PM EDT up reply actions
reopening old wounds....
ESPN can give the Philthies all the verbal BJs they want, Braves will still clinch the east!
by suicide bunting is a sin on May 25, 2011 11:07 AM EDT reply actions
The trade was great. The only “great” prospect at the time was Salty and well, he’s not anything special right now. The type of money that Tex would require was substantially larger than we were willing to pay. No harm, no foul. The front office made the trade knowing that there was a large chance that he would not be resigned. That made it incredibly hard to trade him away when people knew he’d be on the market soon enough. I blame his wife lol.
"Give him the heater Ricky."
"Finally she said, 'I want you to be a Yankee!'"
that’s grounds for divorce if you ask me
It was a particularly small egg...thats why I asked.
by thenightstallion on May 25, 2011 11:10 AM EDT up reply actions
I kind of wish
The Braves just kept Teix, and made him play through the rest of a poor year. A lot of people slammed the Nationals for keeping Alfonso Soriano in 2006, but when they offered the arb that he predictably declined, they got two picks for him one of whom became Jordan Zimmermann. Not saying the Braves would’ve ended up with any legit jewels in hind sight, but at least they’d have some minor league depth now, as opposed to just a disabled Stephen Marek.
No wonder nobody likes you, Tuttle... everything's a (Pujols) damn debate.
Feliz is definitely the guy we'll miss most.
Andrus just doesn’t excite me at this point in time. He’s got a rep as a good defensive shortstop, but while he made 16 errors last year, he’s made 10 already this season, and I read one scout’s opinion that he looks “shaky” in the field. “He looks like he’s not concentrating, like he’s distracted by something,” the scout wrote. Sounds somewhat like Yunel Escobar to me, and we all know how much the organization loved him.
His wOBA last year didn’t crack .300, and this year he’s at .318, which ranks him just two spots ahead of Alex Gonzalez among qualified shortstops (a.k.a. well down the leaderboard). I get that he’s still young, but at some point you have to produce, and so far I haven’t seen that from him.
Salty, Harrison and Jones haven’t turned into anything. So to have traded one legit prospect and one decent/mediocre one for a year and a half of Mark Teixeira (plus Ron Mahay, who pitched well for half a season then brought us a supplementary draft pick that it’s not his fault we wasted on Brett DeVall)? Doesn’t sound like such a bad deal to me.
What doesn't make sense to me is....
that we gave up the farm for a year of Tex but only got Casey Kotchman and Marek from the Angels as they shored up their playoff chances. What happened there?
In short
Freeman was still years away, and Kotchman was (at-the time) perceived as an average bat, with a very good glove, but most importantly, still just in arbitration years, so the Braves got in return a cheap, ML-ready first baseman who was thought to be a good place keeper until Freeman. And Marek was thought to have potential as both a starter and reliever, since he had done both in the minor leagues.
The biggest problem, I thought, was the Braves showed their hand way too frequently, that they wanted to move Teix, leading to what was undoubtedly a poor return.
No wonder nobody likes you, Tuttle... everything's a (Pujols) damn debate.
How wrong we were. Kotchman was Scott Thorman’s slightly better big brother. I’m amazed he’s still in baseball, to be honest.
DON'T GO TO SLEEP EARLY OR JEFF FRANCOEUR WILL HAUNT YOUR DREAMS AND LOWER YOUR OBP. - Scott
I'd say it's kind of a push
With Kotchman narrowly winning for the Schneider-like excuse of defense. I used to cringe at all the times Thorman would go for the ball, often leaving first base completely uncovered for slow-fielding pitchers, or scenarios where he should have let 2B field it.
I didn’t know it, but Thorman’s actually in Tigers AAA, being well, Thorman – 9 HR, 28 K in 154 AB, all while batting a Thorman-like .222.
No wonder nobody likes you, Tuttle... everything's a (Pujols) damn debate.
If we were willing to go with a pure prospect package...
instead of wanting an MLB ready 1B (and Kotchman to that point had decent #s), I wonder what we’d have taken.
Looking back, Prado probably takes 1B if we dealt Tex without a 1B coming back, and getting him more at bats sooner wouldn’t have been a bad idea.
http://sportsandgrits.blogspot.com/
FTR
Andrus has 10 errors this year, I think Gonzo has 2
i hated
the Kotchman for Tex deal more. I understood why they made this trade we got nothing from the second deal
Hands were tied. They probably would have had more outrage if we just let him go for draft picks – which may have worked out well, maybe not.
"Give him the heater Ricky."
Which means less than nothing, but some people still find interesting.
-C
It’s rough to sit through these games and not have someone that can’t hit a Ball?
by cthabeerman on May 25, 2011 12:45 PM EDT up reply actions
I mean that just because that pick was eventually used to select Mike Trout, you can’t make the claim that the Braves would have selected him. Interestingly enough, the Angels had the pick directly before the Yankees’ pick as well, could have drafted him there, etc.
It’s a nice piece of trivia, but that’s it.
-C
It’s rough to sit through these games and not have someone that can’t hit a Ball?
…or Randal Grichuk, Steven Baron, etc. If you take Trout, Grichuck (picked by Angels directly in front of Trout), and the next 24 guys drafted, only half are currently organization top 10 prospects, and many that are top 10 are in weak farm systems. Six make the MLB top 100, and two made the top 50 (Brett Jackson being the other).
Maybe we get lucky and grab Trout, Jackson, Nick Franklin, Tyler Skaggs, Tanner Scheppers, or Matthew Davidson. Or maybe we take one of those other guys, some of whom I’m sure are still great prospects. Of any of them, Trout’s the only guy that’s his team’s best prospect.
So, yeah, Mike Trout…who 22 teams passed on, including the Braves (Minor). A couple teams passed twice. Instead, we took a guy that reached #6 on BA’s top 100 list and had an ,840 OPS the year prior.
-C
It’s rough to sit through these games and not have someone that can’t hit a Ball?
WWWHHHHHHYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY?????????!!!!!!!!!!
But really, I love these posts… not sure why people are complaining. Hindsight is 20/20 which is why these posts are awesome but I mean… does anybody remember the atmosphere when Tex got to the Ted?
Go USA, Braves, BU Terriers, Irish, Caps, Colts, Hoyas, NU Cats, Wizards, DC United, Washington Freedom
BU Hockey: National Champions 1971, 1972, 1978, 1995, 2009
suck up
Don’t worry about older women until you turn 22. It’s called the Saltalamacchia.
by bwellnjonesco on May 19, 2011 4:13 PM PDT
by Klemson Krash on May 25, 2011 12:29 PM EDT up reply actions
Most Overblown Trade Ever.
In their short time in Braves uniforms, Teixeira and Mahay were worth 7.1 WAR according to Baseball Reference (I would have used FanGraphs, but they don’t parse out WAR numbers for individual teams for players traded in season). According to the same site, the quintet of prospects sent to Texas have been worth 9.5 WAR for the Rangers since. This analysis overlooks the fact that the Braves collected multiple draft picks for their departing free agents and whatever returns the Rangers got for later trades involving their haul. That said, the moral of the story is that this trade was really a non-story.
The Braves got better in the short term, but failed to accomplish their championship goals. The Rangers got better in the longterm, but mostly as a consequence of quantity over quality. To date: Feliz is just a reliever, Andrus can’t hit, Saltalamacchia is a marginal catcher, Harrison is a fringe 5th starter and Jones can’t crack an major league bullpen. Meanwhile, it’s been years since either Teixeira or Mahay suited up for the Braves. There are no winners or losers in this trade, just a bunch of smoke and no fire. Most. Overblown. Trade. Ever.
MileHighReport.com member since 02/06/07, promoted to "Position Coach" (i.e. new staff writer) on 02/16/10!
by ejruiz on May 25, 2011 1:37 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
MOTE
Man was it fun debating this trade 3 years ago or what? The 30 or so times it’s been brought up since not so much. I still don’t understand how people can’t see it for what it is (as you’ve so eloquently detailed above). Frustrating!
Because the idea that the Braves got better in the short term...
while correct, doesn’t tell the whole tale, which is way paid a championship caliber price to not become a championship caliber team with the hole that remained in the starting rotation.
http://sportsandgrits.blogspot.com/
Context
is why your argument doesn’t hold water. Trades CANNOT guarantee championships, so trades are made to give your team a better chance at a championship. The fact is quality pitching was not available at the time and we had a hole at 1B. This in effect improved our chances!
I’m not getting into the “players lost” argument. If you cannot see that what we gave up wasn’t worth typing about then that’s on you.
I love posts like this because
even if the topic has been been run in the ground it never fails that someone comes up w/some different insight. This site serves me first & foremost as an education into the things of baseball. I’ve always loved the game, but the knowledge I’ve gained from the authors & contributors concerning stats, trades, contracts & of course rosterbation have given me a better understanding & appreciation of the game that I didn’t have before.
"People ask me what I do in winter when there's no baseball. I'll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring." Rogers Hornsby
Glad you enjoyed it.
"This is gonna feel so good getting this thing off my chest. That's what she said."
Twitter: @scottcoleman55
by Scott Coleman on May 25, 2011 7:24 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I'm all for this idea
I’m just a little disgusted that I’m seeing the same people the cursed ChopMaster for doing exactly what your comment said, then come and here and defend this post because it’s “more content”.
Lady: What?!? How did HE get to Heaven?
GOD: Oh, he was in a different area code, so technically it wasn't cheating..
by bwellnjonesco on May 26, 2011 9:54 AM EDT up reply actions
Harrison… looks like a different guy this year. He’s added nearly 4 or 5 mph to his average fastball since he left our system. His stuff looks better across the board. I think he’s going to stick as a solid back end guy in the AL or a mid rotation guy in the NL.
"It's going to be strange watching There's Something About Mary again, knowing Brett Favre was the biggest stalker of them all"
A couple of things
The Braves FO did make him an offer. It was hoped that he would take a hometown discount at 17.5 per but he wouldn’t take it so that’s why he isn’t in Atlanta. We honestly would have been foolish to pay him as much as the Yankees did.
2nd this trade could have been amazing. I don’t know if anyone remembers but when we traded Tex to the Angels we could have chose Kendry Morales but chose Kotchman because he wad already in the bigs and the dreaded “professional hitter”
If we had gotten Kendry back this trade would never be talked about except in a positive light.
by drumzalicious on May 25, 2011 4:23 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
Assuming Morales doesn't hit a game winning GS for the Bravos...
And subsequently injure himself…
"Insert witty and/or funny quote here" ~ The Person Who Spoketh Said Quote.
Kotchman had pedigree, too...
Pre-2002: Rated #22 Prospect
Pre-2003: Rated #13 Prospect
Pre-2004: Rated #15 Prospect
Pre-2005: Rated #6 Prospect
It’s not like he wasn’t considered a great player. He was also coming off a season in which he put up an .840 OPS and had a .774 OPS at the time of the trade.
-C
It’s rough to sit through these games and not have someone that can’t hit a Ball?
Yeah, they made him an offer...
that contained no more than what he turned down before from the Angels if I’m not mistaken. Why would he accept it here when he wouldn’t from Texas? Oh, because he spent 3 years here at Georgia Tech, as opposed to 4-5 seasons he spent in Arlington.
http://sportsandgrits.blogspot.com/
I never said it was an offer that would be sure to keep him around just pointing out the fact that he was made an offer contrary to what the OP said
by drumzalicious on May 25, 2011 11:21 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Which may as well not have been made...
as said, we made him an offer he’d already declined. The idea that he might have had some affinity for Atlanta was just foolish, and if the trade was made with the mindset that he’d accept a long term offer like the one he turned down from the Rangers, because he loved Atlanta and will totally want to be here long term, would be a damning part of it imo. If we paid that price because we wanted Tex long term, I could buy into that, but we needed to make a legit offer to keep him long term.
http://sportsandgrits.blogspot.com/
Didn’t the Braves almost get CJ Wilson instead of Ron Mahay?
And didn’t the Braves almost get Mark Reynolds from the D-Backs for Tex?
by PhuckthePhillies on May 26, 2011 9:18 PM EDT reply actions
I’d doubt the deal with the DBacks was ever close. Everyone out here knows the DBacks are really tight on money and they’re practically giving away tickets and concessions to get fans in the seats. Doubt they would’ve traded a young, potential star (hey, at the time he was…) for a guy they couldn’t come close to signing in 14 months.
"This is gonna feel so good getting this thing off my chest. That's what she said."
Twitter: @scottcoleman55
by Scott Coleman on May 27, 2011 3:12 AM EDT up reply actions
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