Finding a new centerfielder. Who are the best options and what can they offer?
by ATLandUNC on May 20, 2011 12:09 PM EDT
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PrintThere are several Braves players at several positions who are underperforming, but there is only one position that can readily be fixed, and that is centerfield.
Nate Mclouth, for all of his ups and downs and swings in and out of favor, just quite simply isn't getting it done.
- -1.3 WAR in 2010 / -0.1 WAR in 2011
- .283 wOBA in 2010 / .318 wOBA in 2011
- -36.5 UZR/150 in 2010 / -37.1 UZR/150 in 2011
We've all seen the weak throws, the no throws, the bad routes, and the weak grounders to 2B. For as much as we want to point to his improvement from 2010, he has simply improved from atrocious to pretty bad. Nate is slumping, the Phillies are within striking distance, and the team could certainly use a spark. The time to begin looking for his replacement was yesterday.
So what options are out there? Well, for the sake of keeping this in the realm of feasibility, lets filter out the likes of Matt Kemp, Andrew McCutchen, Colby Rasmus, and Drew Stubbs. These players are all young, playing extremely well, and/or are on winning teams. The chances of them going anywhere are about 2% combined.I also filtered out guys with contracts over $5 million dollars to keep financial restrictions in mind,
The team's biggest needs out of a new centerfielder are speed and defense. That narrows the list down even further still.
What we are left with are the players that, in my opinion, best fit our team needs.
The downlow:
- 28 years old
- 4.4 WAR in 2009 / 4.4 WAR in 2010 / 0.9 WAR in 2011
- 61 SB in 2009 / 52 SB in 2010 / 14 SB in 2011
- 9.9 UZR/150 in 2009 / 20.6 UZR/150 in 2010
- 2011 contract = $4.4 million / 2012 = free agent.
His wOBA would probably be about the same as Mclouth, but he plays gold glove defense, is one of the best base stealers in baseball, and would give the team a legitimate leadoff hitter. Plays the best defense out of the group.
2. B.J. Upton
The downlow:
- 26 years old
- 2.2 WAR in 2009 / 3.5 WAR in 2010 / 1.2 WAR in 2011
- 7.5 UZR/150 in 2009 / 1.9 UZR/150 in 2010
- 42 SB in 2009 / 42 SB in 2010 / 7 SB in 2011
- 2011 contract = $4.82 million / 2012 = free agent.
While Bourn has shown better consistency in recent years, Upton has shown glimpses of greater upside in the past (peaked at 4.7 WAR in 2007). He's a base stealer with some pop and solid defense. Downside is his strikeout rate (28.2% career) and character questions. Has the most power out of the group.
The downlow: (2010 stats omitted due to injury)
- 27 years old
- 3.9 WAR in 2008 / 2.7 WAR in 2009 / 1.2 WAR in 2011
- 23.3 UZR/150 in 2008 / -10.0 UZR/150 in 2009
- 50 SB in 2008 / 70 SB in 2009 / 13 SB in 2011
- 2011 contract = $2.2 million / 2012 = arbitration eligible.
Ellsbury is sort of a rich man's Matt Young. A small guy with blazing speed and no pop who can play an adequate centerfield. He has the most reasonable contract of the bunch, but he is also has some durability concerns. Has the best speed out of the group
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These are the three guys that I think both fit the teams needs and fit the bill of "possibly available". Others who were considered but did not make my list for various reasons. Adam Jones, Denard Span, Dexter Fowler, Cameron Maybin, and Coco Crisp.
Please discuss and feel free to accuse me of straying from the rosterbation thread without merit.
This FanPost does not express the views or opinions of Talking Chop.
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Character concern or not
I believe Upton will fit our needs better. Not saying that he’s the best one but i believe he is more attainable than the other two.
Admired as a saint. Defined by my rank. Combined with my strength. My time and my length.
Why would the Rays or Red Sox trade their starting CF’s??
by dunnytwogloves on May 20, 2011 12:21 PM EDT reply actions
Both have top CF prospects performing well in AAA ready to come up.
Reddick in Boston and Jennings in Tampa Bay.
I’ve got Jack Johnson and Tom O’Leary waiting for ya, right here
let's go after one of them...
I’d be happier going that direction.
Don’t worry about older women until you turn 22. It’s called the Saltalamacchia.
by bwellnjonesco on May 19, 2011 4:13 PM PDT
by Klemson Krash on May 20, 2011 12:54 PM EDT up reply actions
Equivalent to someone trying to get Freeman or Heyward from us when they were in AAA. Even more of a hassle than getting the MLB player.
I’ve got Jack Johnson and Tom O’Leary waiting for ya, right here
I think that'd be wrong...
if you’re willing to pay so much for the prove option in CF, wouldn’t a AAA OF be a little cheaper?
http://sportsandgrits.blogspot.com/
Not necesarily...
Because a AAA OF will be under control for 6 years, including 3 years at the league minimum. There is a lot of value in that.
There is also value in "proven" at the big league level...
vs the may be good, or may be AAAA for the unproven players. And in terms of Reddick/Ellsbury, Ellsbury hasn’t reached arb and his injuries last year will limit an award next year, so the only thing Reddick really has on him is the 3 minimum years, while being unproven, while Ellsbury you know he can play at this level and still has cheap years left.
Upton is different as he enters free agency, but I’d think the only reason Jennings might have a higher price tag is because a) the Rays are cost conscious, and b) his supposed attitude problems. Because I’d take a guy who’s proven he can produce at a crazy high level, as Upton did in 07, vs an uproven AAA player in terms of present day trade value.
http://sportsandgrits.blogspot.com/
In terms of value?
Ellsbury was arb eligible after last season. He pulled an award of 2.2 million. Not overwhelming, but if he has a healthy year that number will esalate quickly. If he’s not healthy, then he isn’t exactly valuable.
The reason Jennings would have higher value is because the Rays are cost conscious, which is another way of saying they look at the value of players. 6 cost controlled years of Jenning will far outstrip three quarters of a year of B.J. Upton, who could optimistically produce 2.5ish WAR ROS.
Reddick's a LF
and isn’t Ellsbury a FA soon?
Jennings is a star, but plays LF, too. Why would the Rays trade a bat (Especially their most consistent this year in Upton) when they NEED bats?
by apoxonbothyourhouses on May 21, 2011 2:47 AM EDT up reply actions
For the eleventy billionth time
Is Nate a great CF’er? No. Is he the reason the team is struggling offensively? No. Is it true that the Braves will more than likely employee a new CF’er next year? Yes. One other thing, you do realize the only thing that makes Bourn a “legitimate” leadoff hitter is his speed? His career OBP is lower than Nate’s and I’m sure you don’t think Nate is a leadoff candidate.
It's even possible that Jim Tressel drinks out of the toilet
There needs to be an other option...
Bourne is ok… Upton is a big NO and Ellsbury only if we get Lowrie too…
This is fringe rosterbation and I’m sure someone meaner than I will mention that but if I honestly had a choice, I’d go strong after JUSTIN Upton… And while we’re at it… Let’s make a blockbuster deal with them where we pick up Stephen Drew too…
Nate McLouth, Alex Gonzalez, Minor or Beachy, Randal Delgado and either Pastornicky or Salcedo.
That’s just my two cents.
Don’t worry about older women until you turn 22. It’s called the Saltalamacchia.
by bwellnjonesco on May 19, 2011 4:13 PM PDT
Not to “though police” my own thread, but this is strictly about CF and who’s feasibly available.
I’ve got Jack Johnson and Tom O’Leary waiting for ya, right here
Yep... I know... I personally would like Upton in our CF
or move Heyward over…
Don’t worry about older women until you turn 22. It’s called the Saltalamacchia.
by bwellnjonesco on May 19, 2011 4:13 PM PDT
by Klemson Krash on May 20, 2011 12:48 PM EDT up reply actions
…That still makes it rosterbation.
Why don’t you just add Rosterbation somewhere early in the title and make it the new one. The last one should expire in the next couple days, if it already hasn’t.
-C
It’s rough to sit through these games and not have someone that can’t hit a Ball?
I didn’t want a thread about RH relief pitchers, backup infielders, and potential 3B replacements.
I just wanted a thread focused in CF. I also put a fair amount of information into it, instead of just rapping out the 150 word minimum and putting “go braves!” at the end.
I regret nothing.
I’ve got Jack Johnson and Tom O’Leary waiting for ya, right here
No one suggested you regret anything…however, the rules are in place for a reason. Adding jazzy shit (which I like, mind you…it’s a good post, imo) doesn’t make it any less of a rosterbation thread.
-C
It’s rough to sit through these games and not have someone that can’t hit a Ball?
“I regret nothing” is sort of an internet meme.
And I get what you’re saying, I just think this discussion is legit on its own merits. The rest of the trade possibilities are all small roles, like the ones I mentioned above. The most likely big trade would be in CF, which is why I devoted an entire thread to it.
The “oh no rosterbation” thing seems a little out of control around here. The occasional position-specific post doesn’t harm anyone, and I don’t think this post is going to spawn 10 “trade for Tulowitzki” type threads in the near future.
I’ve got Jack Johnson and Tom O’Leary waiting for ya, right here
As long as it’s just one thread concerning CFs here and another concerning Sizemore there, it isn’t a big deal. When it gets to be 5 threads concerning umpteen different players, and people just start piling on new ones, it gets ridiculous.
For this time of season, I’m okay with it. There isn’t too much trade talk right now.
Come June, the situation will be drastically different. Trade talks will heat up, and everyone and their dog is going to post a new rosterbation trade idea. That’s when it’s irritating.
The problem isn’t you, or this thread. The problem is enforcing this once it becomes a nuisance, and people pointing to your thread as justification for their post.
-C
It’s rough to sit through these games and not have someone that can’t hit a Ball?
I agree
It seems more often than not that these comment sections are full of the “no rosterbating” crap… It’s starting to get very bothersome… I personally like your post
by UpstateNyBravesFan on May 21, 2011 3:53 PM EDT up reply actions
So we're that dense that people wouldn't recognize this as rosterbation...
without it in the title?
http://sportsandgrits.blogspot.com/
for it to be the main rosterbation thread...
it’s possible… remember, (I just went through the archive) Justin said all rosterbation was to be done in the thread w/ Rosterbation in the title…
As I’ve heard from someone yesterday, us mindless sheep must continue to graze and follow the leader… w/o rosterbation in the title, i’m afraid we may have some strays… :(
Don’t worry about older women until you turn 22. It’s called the Saltalamacchia.
by bwellnjonesco on May 19, 2011 4:13 PM PDT
by Klemson Krash on May 20, 2011 2:08 PM EDT up reply actions
As someone who's made multiple rosterbation threads...
and probably did a large chunk of them last year, which justin has never done by the way, nor is he any sort of authority figure around here to require they have “rosterbation” in the title, I’d say it’s not mandatory. It’s easier for the sheep, but not mandatory.
http://sportsandgrits.blogspot.com/
baaaaaaaaaaa
Don’t worry about older women until you turn 22. It’s called the Saltalamacchia.
by bwellnjonesco on May 19, 2011 4:13 PM PDT
by Klemson Krash on May 20, 2011 3:07 PM EDT up reply actions
Just saying...
what justin has to do with this, I got no idea, but you brought him up for some reason? (Must be the Clemson in you).
But if I had to guess, I’d wager I was the main rosterbation post creator last year. And yeah, I used rosterbation for easier identification, but it’s certainly not mandatory.
http://sportsandgrits.blogspot.com/
If the Braves are willing to part with Teheran, Hanson, maybe Jurrjens
among other talented arms, just about any CF is “feasibly available” in my mind.
http://sportsandgrits.blogspot.com/
For J. Upton and Drew?
That offer just wouldn’t cut it. McLouth detracts from the value of the offer, Gonzalez is a throw in/short term replacement for Drew, Minor and Delgado would be feasible, and Pastornicky is a fringe prospect.
If this were serious, I would imagine it would have to start with an offer along the lines of Teheran, Freeman, and Minor. Remember, this is Kevin Towers we’re dealing with. Upton alone would probably cost us the farm.
by OrangeBravo on May 20, 2011 12:38 PM EDT up reply actions
Fair enough but remember we have FW
who traded a util and throw in for Uggla…
Don’t worry about older women until you turn 22. It’s called the Saltalamacchia.
by bwellnjonesco on May 19, 2011 4:13 PM PDT
by Klemson Krash on May 20, 2011 12:48 PM EDT up reply actions
And they have Kevin Towers
Who would balk at trading Kelly Johnson for less than a frontline vet pitcher.
Fangraphs, on Craig Kimbrel: "His strikeout rates look like they’re coming from a video game"
and we have FW
who traded an aging SS for JJ and Gorkys… who brought us McLouth… ok.. ignore that last part.
Don’t worry about older women until you turn 22. It’s called the Saltalamacchia.
by bwellnjonesco on May 19, 2011 4:13 PM PDT
by Klemson Krash on May 20, 2011 12:58 PM EDT up reply actions
I realize that FW has pulled some steals...
but this one is reeeeally hard to imagine. Upton is under team control through 2015 at a more-than-fair rate. Upton has MVP potential, and the Dbacks could and should demand the world for him.
None of those deals were with Towers...
need I remind you the last time Wren and Towers worked on a deal, aka Jake Peavy for Escobar and a dozen other players Towers kept adding on.
http://sportsandgrits.blogspot.com/
i know... i was just trying to see how far carpengui
could go w/ his retorts… :-)
Don’t worry about older women until you turn 22. It’s called the Saltalamacchia.
by bwellnjonesco on May 19, 2011 4:13 PM PDT
by Klemson Krash on May 20, 2011 2:09 PM EDT up reply actions
No, this is outright rosterbation...
nothing fringe about it. But he seems to bring enough that, in my mind, it’s worthy of being a stand alone rosterbation post without the need to be deleted and readded to the mess.
http://sportsandgrits.blogspot.com/
Grady Sizemore anyone?
Shark in the water.
by AvoidTheDolphin on May 20, 2011 12:41 PM EDT reply actions
I wouldn’t hate the idea, but his contract and his injury concerns made him fall far short from the cut, in my opinion. Not to mention he just injured himself again a few days ago.
I’ve got Jack Johnson and Tom O’Leary waiting for ya, right here
he just plays too hard...
which is a good thing and a bad thing… especially when you’re fragile.
Don’t worry about older women until you turn 22. It’s called the Saltalamacchia.
by bwellnjonesco on May 19, 2011 4:13 PM PDT
by Klemson Krash on May 20, 2011 12:53 PM EDT up reply actions
It’d be impossible to trade for Sizemore since you can’t trade players who are on the DL and he’s never not on the DL.
I wrote a novel, it's about baseball, you should buy it:
http://www.amazon.com/Four-C-B-Wilkins/dp/1449578454/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1257720610&sr=1-1
www.dropoutproductions.com
Post wasn't actually serious.
I was just referring to the very similiar post titled “Grady Sizemore anyone?”. Just thought this post could have been posted there as this isn’t some groundbreaking topic that none of us have mulled over once or twice.
Shark in the water.
by AvoidTheDolphin on May 20, 2011 1:38 PM EDT up reply actions
you mean...
we rehash old topics around here frequently!?!? Why, I never knew…
Don’t worry about older women until you turn 22. It’s called the Saltalamacchia.
by bwellnjonesco on May 19, 2011 4:13 PM PDT
by Klemson Krash on May 20, 2011 1:58 PM EDT up reply actions
ATLandUNC is too much of a rebel to follow guidelines.
I wrote a novel, it's about baseball, you should buy it:
http://www.amazon.com/Four-C-B-Wilkins/dp/1449578454/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1257720610&sr=1-1
www.dropoutproductions.com
Because a post that doesn’t even mention Grady Sizemore belongs in a Grady Sizemore thread.
I’ve got Jack Johnson and Tom O’Leary waiting for ya, right here
Centerfield rosterbation. You can argue it however you want, but that’s what this is. I never had the thought or intention of deleting this fanpost, but that’s what this is.
I wrote a novel, it's about baseball, you should buy it:
http://www.amazon.com/Four-C-B-Wilkins/dp/1449578454/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1257720610&sr=1-1
www.dropoutproductions.com
I thought that wasn't exactly true...
it’s rare players on the DL get dealt, if not unprecedented, but I thought it was POSSIBLE if the team trading for the DL’d player was willing to accept them sans physical. See Jake Peavy’s trade to the White Sox while on DL.
http://sportsandgrits.blogspot.com/
I'll respond to myself
I would, with a cringe, pick B.J Upton.
Michael Bourn would be my safe pick, but I’m a sucker for upside. Michael Bourn is pretty much at his ceiling. He’s a very solid 4 WAR player who appears to have maxed out.
B.J. Upton. on the other hand, appears to be one of those guys who is 1 proper adjustment away from being a top-tier player. I know this has been said ad naseum since 2007, but I still buy it. He’s got the defense and speed of Bourn, but he also has the possibility to pull off the 20 homer, 40 double, 40 SB trick. I would take the risk and hope for a 5-6 WAR payoff during his prime.
I’ve got Jack Johnson and Tom O’Leary waiting for ya, right here
I like that pick
He can hit for power and is still young.
Admired as a saint. Defined by my rank. Combined with my strength. My time and my length.
And he’s right handed, which in itself is a big selling point.
I’ve got Jack Johnson and Tom O’Leary waiting for ya, right here
where would you bat him in the lineup?
Don’t worry about older women until you turn 22. It’s called the Saltalamacchia.
by bwellnjonesco on May 19, 2011 4:13 PM PDT
by Klemson Krash on May 20, 2011 1:30 PM EDT up reply actions
Anywhere but 6th...
/That’s where Heyward belongs.
CEO and Founder of the Hire Bill Cowher for 2012 Bandwagon.
Pack your bags, TS and JI.
by DolphinNation on May 20, 2011 1:53 PM EDT up reply actions
But the whole point of any trade for us, a contending team, would be to improve as much as we can right now. Teams planning to compete in a few years are the ones who buy low and hope. If we traded for any of the above it would be Bourn as his team is the only one out of contention, and like you said he is the much safer route with the Braves knowing what they will be getting.
Shark in the water.
by AvoidTheDolphin on May 20, 2011 1:46 PM EDT up reply actions
Well its a safe bet that B.J. Upton would be an upgrade immediately.
The Rays don’t really fit the mold of most contenders. Even though they are in the hunt, they will still probably openly field calls for Upton in an attempt to get a few more minor league pieces for the upcoming years before he leaves. Its how they’ve always operated.
Plus they have CF Desmond Jennings blowing up AAA. I would bet Upton has the greatest chance of being move out of all the players listed in my most.
I’ve got Jack Johnson and Tom O’Leary waiting for ya, right here
But both are FAs so upside means little...
unless you expect it soon, or are willing to pay for it when they test free agency (or to buy them out before it happens). RIGHT NOW, I’d take Bourn over Upton, so upside doesn’t matter to me, unless you’re talking Ellsbury since he’d be under club control after this year (which is why he’d be my choice).
http://sportsandgrits.blogspot.com/
i'm so confused...
i think you made a point but I totally lost it…
Don’t worry about older women until you turn 22. It’s called the Saltalamacchia.
by bwellnjonesco on May 19, 2011 4:13 PM PDT
by Klemson Krash on May 20, 2011 2:11 PM EDT up reply actions
It was on this...
but I’m a sucker for upside
If Bourn is better today, who cares about upside that doesn’t matter for us unless it’s about to hit since any “upside” would come to whoever signs them in free agency. Upside matters with Ellsbury, who has club control. But as pending free agents, “upside” is worthless in Bourn and Upton comps because you’d never get their upside, just their present day production.
http://sportsandgrits.blogspot.com/
If the Braves made a trade for either Upton or Bourn I would expect, or at last hope, that they would sign them to an extension before they reach free agency. That was my thinking there. The Braves could use a locked-down centerfielder anyway, as I’m sure Wren is as sick of the revolving door out there as we are.
I’ve got Jack Johnson and Tom O’Leary waiting for ya, right here
but not before they played...
i can only handle so many uggla extensions….
Don’t worry about older women until you turn 22. It’s called the Saltalamacchia.
by bwellnjonesco on May 19, 2011 4:13 PM PDT
by Klemson Krash on May 20, 2011 3:08 PM EDT up reply actions
No one’s talking trading him, we’re talking about replacing him as a starter.
I’ve got Jack Johnson and Tom O’Leary waiting for ya, right here
and that's going to happen?
I’m surprised you didn’t talk about replacing McLouth with Schafer.
Would love to land Bourn
and given how poorly the Astros have started off, I bet we could definitely get a deal done around the AS break.
I like Upton, but the character concerns really turn me off. We have a great clubhouse, but “that” guy can oftentimes ruin the chemistry a little bit. That was (partly) why we shipped Yunel off to Toronto in the first place.
"My parents do a lot of things behind the scenes that go unnoticed"- Cam Newton, Heisman acceptance speech.
by TurnerTheBurner on May 20, 2011 3:41 PM EDT reply actions
That was (partly) why we shipped Yunel off to Toronto in the first place.
That was about 50% why we shipped him off. The other 50% was his offensive struggles. He was hitting .233 I think with no home runs. He finished the year with .275 average with 4 home runs and 16 RBI.
SODOKU: HEY, I WASN'T A FAN OF IT 10 YEARS AGO WHEN IT WAS CALLED "MATH".
I disagree w/ this train of thought.. and source of statistics.
Don’t worry about older women until you turn 22. It’s called the Saltalamacchia.
by bwellnjonesco on May 19, 2011 4:13 PM PDT
by Klemson Krash on May 20, 2011 4:40 PM EDT up reply actions
His offensive struggles for 2 months were a convenience for the team to trade him, not the reason for trading him.
This guy wants to suck all the cubs dick can he not have an unbias some what partition reguards
by RWH2 on Apr 5, 2010 10:20 AM CDT
by justincredubil02 on May 20, 2011 7:27 PM EDT up reply actions
Exactly
His trade was more so a product of him falling out of favor with the front office and his teammates. He was one year removed from a season where he hit .299/.377/.436 ,
it’s not like they labeled him a bust after half a season of poor production.
"My parents do a lot of things behind the scenes that go unnoticed"- Cam Newton, Heisman acceptance speech.
by TurnerTheBurner on May 21, 2011 12:39 AM EDT up reply actions
Wrong...
they tolerated his stupidity when he could actually hit. So once he began to be worthless at the plate too, it no longer negated his stupidity. I’d say his offensive struggles were a very large part of the reason for trading him.
http://sportsandgrits.blogspot.com/
And the fact that his struggles weren't a sign of an offensive collapse
And he’s back to hitting an above average rate, as per his career…you’re saying the Braves didn’t see that coming when they traded him?
My buddy and I just decided that the braves would be set if we could get Matt Kemp, Jose Reyes, and Albert Pujols.
by willlinn on May 17, 2011 2:13 PM EDT
I obviously can’t say it with anything close to absolute certainty, but given that he’s basically regressing to his career averages, I will say, resoundingly, “YES!”
My buddy and I just decided that the braves would be set if we could get Matt Kemp, Jose Reyes, and Albert Pujols.
by willlinn on May 17, 2011 2:13 PM EDT
Why wouldn’t it have? It was here for 3 years prior. But I forgot – he had 2 bad months, so he clearly was never going to hit again in Atlanta…
This guy wants to suck all the cubs dick can he not have an unbias some what partition reguards
by RWH2 on Apr 5, 2010 10:20 AM CDT
by justincredubil02 on May 21, 2011 4:16 PM EDT up reply actions
i think it was more it seemed
like he wasn’t trying anymore.
People are like at least I'm not that guy on stage. That guy on stage is like at least I'm not that guy in the looney bin. The guy in the looney bin are like at least I'm an orange
He always looked “lazy”.
Like I said, his offensive struggles in those early season months gave the team a great excuse to do something that they wanted to do for a while.
This guy wants to suck all the cubs dick can he not have an unbias some what partition reguards
by RWH2 on Apr 5, 2010 10:20 AM CDT
by justincredubil02 on May 21, 2011 5:15 PM EDT up reply actions
Sure he was dogging it on defense some of the time
But he always had a high potential, which he had mostly tapped into during his time here.
Like I said, 2 months of poor play was not the only reason Atlanta traded him when he was a year removed from a season where he batted .299 with 14 HRs
Should the Red Sox just give up on Carl Crawford now and trade him away because he’s had a bad couple of months?
"My parents do a lot of things behind the scenes that go unnoticed"- Cam Newton, Heisman acceptance speech.
by TurnerTheBurner on May 21, 2011 6:29 PM EDT up reply actions
Bourn...
…is not a free agent after this year; he is arbitration eligible again. He’s decent but not that big of an upgrade, so why give up something good (which the Astros will want) for him? The rest of the guys you mention won’t happen—-why would contenders give up decent/good starters in the middle of the season?
why would contenders give up decent/good starters in the middle of the season?
Because one is a small market team about to lose their CF to free agency while they have a CF in AAA putting up a .900 OPS. The Rays love to trade guys for more young talent before they lose them, especially when they have an in-house replacement ready to go. I am close to 100% certain Upton will be dealt before the deadline.
I’ve got Jack Johnson and Tom O’Leary waiting for ya, right here
Next question to this...
why would we rent another player… especially one who is goign to be expensive to resign when we have decent options at AAA ourselves. It wasn’t that long ago that Schafer was appealing to us all…
Don’t worry about older women until you turn 22. It’s called the Saltalamacchia.
by bwellnjonesco on May 19, 2011 4:13 PM PDT
by Klemson Krash on May 20, 2011 5:22 PM EDT up reply actions
Boston may want a starter
Just saying… Wont happen more than likely but they do need a starter…
by UpstateNyBravesFan on May 21, 2011 4:04 PM EDT up reply actions
Bourn. However, we will have to give Houston just the right pieces so that they won’t come back to hurt us. Like, as you say, ATLandUNC, Nate McLouth. Houston needs pitching, so we could give them KK or a double-A guy, like Randall Delgado. Of the people that weren’t pictured, I like Dexter Fowler. However, again, we have to give them the right pieces so they won’t come back to hurt us. And this, good sirs, is rosterbation.
Well, my last day of the 8th grade and last day of middle school is OVER, so it’ll be summa time and time for the pool!
SODOKU: HEY, I WASN'T A FAN OF IT 10 YEARS AGO WHEN IT WAS CALLED "MATH".
congrats on getting ready for High School!
hopefully we will keep seeing you on this great site. You definitely bring something w/ your posts…
Don’t worry about older women until you turn 22. It’s called the Saltalamacchia.
by bwellnjonesco on May 19, 2011 4:13 PM PDT
by Klemson Krash on May 20, 2011 4:42 PM EDT up reply actions
Why would anyone give us useful players...
…for McLouth and KK? They have negative trade value at the moment, given their salaries, and Houston isn’t going anywhere this year so they would want them at all.
so they would want them at all.
So you’re actually helping me prove my point. Thank you.
SODOKU: HEY, I WASN'T A FAN OF IT 10 YEARS AGO WHEN IT WAS CALLED "MATH".
Don’t worry about older women until you turn 22. It’s called the Saltalamacchia.
by bwellnjonesco on May 19, 2011 4:13 PM PDT
by Klemson Krash on May 20, 2011 5:52 PM EDT up reply actions
Defending McLouth
When you use things like WAR and UZR this early in the season, you’re dealing with the extreme restrictions of UZR. It’s not accurate at all for sample sizes this small. It’s reflection on WAR, therefore, makes WAR inaccurate until we’re much later along in the year.
Nate McLouth is not a great defensive centerfielder, by any means. UZR thinks he’s the the worst CFer, nearly the worst defensive outfield in the whole big leagues, and by HUGE margins. I would be willing to say he’s below average, even bad, but he’s just not 8 runs below average to date. That’s almost ridiculous to contemplate. Before his (too SSS to be accurate) fielding total is added to WAR, he’s a 0.7 WAR player. He’s hitting at basically league average rate, he’s actually been even slightly above average before he went on his recent bunt orgy. Being an above average hitter at CF is valuable.
The guys you’ve mentioned are minimal upgrades at best, and Bourn might even be a downgrade, based on his career values. I don’t think any of them are big enough upgrades to justify what we’d likely need to give up acquiring them.
My buddy and I just decided that the braves would be set if we could get Matt Kemp, Jose Reyes, and Albert Pujols.
by willlinn on May 17, 2011 2:13 PM EDT
and Bourn might even be a downgrade, based on his career values
You are really, really, really undervaluing defense. Bourn is arguably the best defensive centerfielder in the game, Mclouth is arguably the worst. That would be no little upgrade. The two most important defensive positions are shortstop and centerfield. Bourn has had back to back 4.4 WAR seasons. Nate Mclouth has never topped 3.7, even as “Pittsburgh Nate”.
You say you don’t trust this years UZR/150, which I can understand, but excluding this year, Nate has already had 3 seasons with a UZR/150 worse than -12.0. His career UZR/150 in CF is -13.0 There’s really no arguing he’s one of the worst defenders at one of the most important defensive positions.
I’ve got Jack Johnson and Tom O’Leary waiting for ya, right here
Maybe I'm slightly underrating defense
But I don’t think there’s really a case to be made that Bourn is the best defensive CFer in the game. There’s Gutierrez and Carlos Gomez, at least, and then a few guys like Denard Span and Austin Jackson who might be in the same neighborhood, and Curtis Granderson is in that discussion as well.
I just think that bashing and blaming McLouth has become ingrained-people are so used to being mad at him for how bad he was last year that he’s not being fairly judged on his merits this season. Things can become a part of a narrative with very little factual basis at all.
My buddy and I just decided that the braves would be set if we could get Matt Kemp, Jose Reyes, and Albert Pujols.
by willlinn on May 17, 2011 2:13 PM EDT
2011 nate mclouth
Ball in Play: 93
Plate Appearances:187
Just sayin’.
I can see nate being the worst CF in the league, but I don’t think it’s hurting the team to the extent the raw numbers show. UZR is the player compaired to the league. So a player putting up +5 one year and -5 the next might have performed the same in those years, with the league simply playing better. This might be the case with McLousy this year. His RZR is similar to his 09 year where he posted a UZR of 0.8. Yet his UZR range runs above average are way down.
Really though, all this wouldn’t matter if Uggla would start hitting.
The WAR folks like yunel apparently. i know this, bobby cox hated going to war with this guy. ~Jon Heyman
by TheBravestWay To Block A Decent Prospect on May 21, 2011 2:36 PM EDT up reply actions
Nate McLouth is no where CLOSE to the worst CF in baseball this year.
This guy wants to suck all the cubs dick can he not have an unbias some what partition reguards
by RWH2 on Apr 5, 2010 10:20 AM CDT
by justincredubil02 on May 21, 2011 2:39 PM EDT up reply actions
2011 nate mclouth
Ball in Play: 93
Plate Appearances:187
Just sayin’.
I’m sorry…just what exactly is it that you ARE saying? I don’t even see if that has any point to it at all.
My buddy and I just decided that the braves would be set if we could get Matt Kemp, Jose Reyes, and Albert Pujols.
by willlinn on May 17, 2011 2:13 PM EDT
Don’t you know that Nate has a 50% K rate???
This guy wants to suck all the cubs dick can he not have an unbias some what partition reguards
by RWH2 on Apr 5, 2010 10:20 AM CDT
by justincredubil02 on May 21, 2011 3:18 PM EDT up reply actions
He’s striking out a bit too much…but it’s just barely above his career rates, and it’s actually well under the career rates of Dan Uggla and Jason Heyward. So it’s not a big deal. It’s small enough that he could get his K rate under 20% if he, goes like, 2 games without a K. I’d say it’s not an issue. The only real issue with McLouth is his power that’s disappeared. Of course, he has fewer opportunities to hit home runs when he’s asked to bunt so often.
My buddy and I just decided that the braves would be set if we could get Matt Kemp, Jose Reyes, and Albert Pujols.
by willlinn on May 17, 2011 2:13 PM EDT
That makes me so upset. He was getting that power stroke back, when Fredi went on this bunting craze. I officially hate Fredi Gonzalez as manager.
This guy wants to suck all the cubs dick can he not have an unbias some what partition reguards
by RWH2 on Apr 5, 2010 10:20 AM CDT
by justincredubil02 on May 21, 2011 4:17 PM EDT up reply actions
Seriously? McLouth, who’s been woefully unproductive for going on 2 years got all screwed up because Fredi made him bunt a few times. That’s just silly.
I wrote a novel, it's about baseball, you should buy it:
http://www.amazon.com/Four-C-B-Wilkins/dp/1449578454/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1257720610&sr=1-1
www.dropoutproductions.com
Ok, it wasn’t 2 years, he actually did about what I would expect him to do in 09 after he came to the Braves. If he got back to that level things would be great.
I wrote a novel, it's about baseball, you should buy it:
http://www.amazon.com/Four-C-B-Wilkins/dp/1449578454/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1257720610&sr=1-1
www.dropoutproductions.com
No, there isn’t an excuse for how terrible he was last year, let alone blaming Fredi for it.
But, his swing was coming around this year, the patience came back, the contact came back, then the power started to slowly come back with doubles and a couple of HRs in a week or so span, then Fredi went all bunt-crazy with him – 3 times in one game, seriously???
This guy wants to suck all the cubs dick can he not have an unbias some what partition reguards
by RWH2 on Apr 5, 2010 10:20 AM CDT
by justincredubil02 on May 21, 2011 4:33 PM EDT up reply actions
Still, that one game is going to mess him up? That one game where he helped the team?
I wrote a novel, it's about baseball, you should buy it:
http://www.amazon.com/Four-C-B-Wilkins/dp/1449578454/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1257720610&sr=1-1
www.dropoutproductions.com
He’s asked to bunt almost every time anyone is on base ahead of him with less than 2 outs.
Of course not that one game, but game after game? Yeah, I can see how that would take someone out of a rhythm that they were developing.
This guy wants to suck all the cubs dick can he not have an unbias some what partition reguards
by RWH2 on Apr 5, 2010 10:20 AM CDT
by justincredubil02 on May 21, 2011 5:16 PM EDT up reply actions
I don’t see how making contact and laying down 3 great bunts, which is damn hard, gets you out of a rhythm. If his rhythm was that fragile it wasn’t much of one. The guy helped the team with those bunts. Get em on, get em over, get em in. That’s baseball and he was a part of it. I’d love to see that trend continue over the whole season.
I wrote a novel, it's about baseball, you should buy it:
http://www.amazon.com/Four-C-B-Wilkins/dp/1449578454/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1257720610&sr=1-1
www.dropoutproductions.com
basically that he has more than twice as many chances to contribute at the plate as he does in the field.
it was actually mean for ATLandUNC not for you.
The WAR folks like yunel apparently. i know this, bobby cox hated going to war with this guy. ~Jon Heyman
by TheBravestWay To Block A Decent Prospect on May 21, 2011 10:53 PM EDT up reply actions
I want to know what part of a .345 OBP isn’t getting it done.
What really needs to happen in CF is our retarded manager needs to stop bunting with one of our hotter hitters.
This guy wants to suck all the cubs dick can he not have an unbias some what partition reguards
by RWH2 on Apr 5, 2010 10:20 AM CDT
by justincredubil02 on May 20, 2011 7:29 PM EDT reply actions
A rare and unique thing here... Kinda of like a double rainbow...
But I have to say, you’re speaking sense…
I would suscribe to your newsletter
Don’t worry about older women until you turn 22. It’s called the Saltalamacchia.
by bwellnjonesco on May 19, 2011 4:13 PM PDT
by Klemson Krash on May 20, 2011 7:32 PM EDT up reply actions
It is partially from the bunting, but Mclouth is hitting .176 over his last 10 games. He’s not one of the hottest hitters anymore. A combination of him not being that good and Fredi killing any chance.
I’ve got Jack Johnson and Tom O’Leary waiting for ya, right here
It’s more than partially from the bunting.
This guy wants to suck all the cubs dick can he not have an unbias some what partition reguards
by RWH2 on Apr 5, 2010 10:20 AM CDT
by justincredubil02 on May 20, 2011 8:16 PM EDT up reply actions
Also, OBP does not a player make. There’s a lot more that goes into whether a player is good or not.
I’ve got Jack Johnson and Tom O’Leary waiting for ya, right here
Does OBP say anything? I know a .345 OBP means something, saying that a player knows how to get on base, whether it be a hit or a walk.
SODOKU: HEY, I WASN'T A FAN OF IT 10 YEARS AGO WHEN IT WAS CALLED "MATH".
It's not important enough to put on the scoreboard, I know that.
Most people use statistics the way a drunk would use a lamppost—for support, and not for illumination.
www.duwanis.com
by duwanis on May 20, 2011 8:18 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
It says that players are good or bad at doing their job – not making outs.
This guy wants to suck all the cubs dick can he not have an unbias some what partition reguards
by RWH2 on Apr 5, 2010 10:20 AM CDT
by justincredubil02 on May 20, 2011 8:28 PM EDT up reply actions
So the other half of every inning doesn’t count?
I’ve got Jack Johnson and Tom O’Leary waiting for ya, right here
When talking about a player’s offensive value? No.
This guy wants to suck all the cubs dick can he not have an unbias some what partition reguards
by RWH2 on Apr 5, 2010 10:20 AM CDT
by justincredubil02 on May 21, 2011 12:11 AM EDT up reply actions
That’s strange. On my keyboard, I only typed what OBP tells us. On your screen, it showed that I typed about SLG being worthless. One of us has a faulty computer.
This guy wants to suck all the cubs dick can he not have an unbias some what partition reguards
by RWH2 on Apr 5, 2010 10:20 AM CDT
by justincredubil02 on May 21, 2011 10:49 AM EDT up reply actions
You've said countless times, OBP, OBP, OBP
OBP “says that players are good or bad at doing their job – not making outs” implying that the only job of a hitter is OBP, and SLG is not a part of it. It’s an oft-used claim you’ve made around here, especially in your Sea Bass bashing.
http://sportsandgrits.blogspot.com/
by Mr. Sanchez on May 21, 2011 11:10 AM EDT up reply actions
A hitter’s only job is to not get out.
This guy wants to suck all the cubs dick can he not have an unbias some what partition reguards
by RWH2 on Apr 5, 2010 10:20 AM CDT
by justincredubil02 on May 21, 2011 11:16 AM EDT up reply actions
Disagree...
with the obvious example on you’re wrongness being when they’re asked to sacrifice.
Some also have the responsibility of driving in runs, providing power, move a runner over, among countless other things a hitter may be asked to do besides simply “not get out”.
http://sportsandgrits.blogspot.com/
by Mr. Sanchez on May 21, 2011 11:34 AM EDT up reply actions
So, a runner is on first with 0 outs. Are you happier if the batter takes a walk or bunts?
Sacrificing is stupid 99% of the time. Sacrificing with a position player (unless you are sacrificing the runner to 3B) is stupid 100% of the time, unless the position player is the worst hitter in baseball.
A player being asked to sacrifice is completely out of his control, and therefore is an invalid point in any discussion when talking about a player’s offensive capabilities.
This guy wants to suck all the cubs dick can he not have an unbias some what partition reguards
by RWH2 on Apr 5, 2010 10:20 AM CDT
by justincredubil02 on May 21, 2011 1:47 PM EDT up reply actions
lol
95% of the time, it’s stupid 100% of the time.
Most people use statistics the way a drunk would use a lamppost—for support, and not for illumination.
www.duwanis.com
But, 60% of the time, it works every time!
This guy wants to suck all the cubs dick can he not have an unbias some what partition reguards
by RWH2 on Apr 5, 2010 10:20 AM CDT
by justincredubil02 on May 21, 2011 2:21 PM EDT up reply actions
Bunt sacrifices aren't the only sacrifices...
I’ll take a sac fly RBI all day.
Or I assume that is your remaining 1%? /sarcasm
http://sportsandgrits.blogspot.com/
ummmm
A hitter’s only job is to not get out.
actually, that fails to take into account sacrifices, which are PRODUCTIVE outs. perhaps you should say:
A hitter’s only job is to not get out. Barring that, any outs a hitter does perform need to be productive.
by apoxonbothyourhouses on May 21, 2011 11:45 AM EDT up reply actions
Don’t use “retarded” as a pejorative.
I wrote a novel, it's about baseball, you should buy it:
http://www.amazon.com/Four-C-B-Wilkins/dp/1449578454/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1257720610&sr=1-1
www.dropoutproductions.com
Can I use it to describe him?
http://sportsandgrits.blogspot.com/
by Mr. Sanchez on May 21, 2011 11:35 AM EDT up reply actions
You need to quit instigating arguments with justincredible. You’re the one who looks aggressive and childish. He makes a comment, you start an attack on him. It’s getting ridiculous and you need to cut it out.
I wrote a novel, it's about baseball, you should buy it:
http://www.amazon.com/Four-C-B-Wilkins/dp/1449578454/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1257720610&sr=1-1
www.dropoutproductions.com
You say that
like he only argues with me, or I end up in those types of arguments with more than just him.
http://sportsandgrits.blogspot.com/
by Mr. Sanchez on May 21, 2011 12:37 PM EDT up reply actions
You seem to seek out his posts and start an argument. You start the argument out of nowhere and make it personal. You need to stop this and keep it related to the actual facts. We get it, you don’t like him, you can back off, we all understand.
I wrote a novel, it's about baseball, you should buy it:
http://www.amazon.com/Four-C-B-Wilkins/dp/1449578454/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1257720610&sr=1-1
www.dropoutproductions.com
Then you don't get it...
i’ve got nothing against him. i just disagree with a lot of his points.
http://sportsandgrits.blogspot.com/
I may not “get it”, but I get how it looks. It looks like you have a personal vendetta and attack him over the most minor things. You look for stuff in his posts to pull out and attack.
I wrote a novel, it's about baseball, you should buy it:
http://www.amazon.com/Four-C-B-Wilkins/dp/1449578454/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1257720610&sr=1-1
www.dropoutproductions.com
I could say the same about some of your postings
which tend to get personal with others, and seem pretty condescending at times.
But whatever. Think of it what you want, I don’t really care. I can seperate the man from his opinions about baseball. But whether you can see it or not, the truth of the matter is I’ve got no “personal vendetta” against some man I’ve never met, and likely never will, and who to be honest I’d wager I’d get along with just fine if we ever did meet. But I do disagree strongly with some of the things he posts, and think he posts a bunch of stupidity, which I call out in my own way. He does the same to me. You do the same with others you disagree with, sometimes in what appears to be personal vendettas or attacks as well. Of course, when someone calls you on it, you just make a smart ass reply and threaten a ban/48 hour timeout.
Whatever, bet whelcher.
http://sportsandgrits.blogspot.com/
by Mr. Sanchez on May 22, 2011 11:43 AM EDT up reply actions
I like Bourn, but I don’t know how Fredi would be able to manage with his raging hard on he’d have over his bunting ability.
We'll trade you for Cheryl Tunt. Tome again? Still nothing?
legit lol’d
Michael Bourn, 4-4, 4 bunts
I’ve got Jack Johnson and Tom O’Leary waiting for ya, right here
BTW
it’s “Sudoko,” and it’s logic, not math.
Most people use statistics the way a drunk would use a lamppost—for support, and not for illumination.
www.duwanis.com
Bah, correction fail
“Sudoku”
Most people use statistics the way a drunk would use a lamppost—for support, and not for illumination.
www.duwanis.com
Exactly. I don’t wanna do no stinkin’ logic or deal with no stinkin’ numbahs.
SODOKU: HEY, I WASN'T A FAN OF IT 10 YEARS AGO WHEN IT WAS CALLED "MATH".
High school will be a joy for you then...
Insanity is doing the same thing over and over expecting different results.
by biggentleben on May 20, 2011 11:39 PM EDT up reply actions
Man, miss those days. Good 'ole algebra...
"My parents do a lot of things behind the scenes that go unnoticed"- Cam Newton, Heisman acceptance speech.
by TurnerTheBurner on May 21, 2011 12:47 AM EDT up reply actions
A. Jones
could be had, methinks, for the right combination of players. I know they’d ask about Teheran. We’d say no. Then they’d ask about Delgado and/or Vizcaino. We’d have to think about that. I think they’d prefer Viczaino (being the righty in their lefty-heavy rotation). But we’d also need to put in a positional piece.
Also, Jones is a bit overrated.
Why not Chris Young?
Matt Kemp is NOT happening.
by apoxonbothyourhouses on May 21, 2011 2:51 AM EDT up reply actions
Are you kidding me?
Before we get rid of McLouth maybe we should ship off Uggla, Freeman, and Heyward. Sheesh. The guy has been one of the better offensive contributors on the team and he still gets bashed. If he wasn’t asked to bunt every time he’s up maybe we would see him do a little more with the bat.
Give the guy a break. He isn’t the reason we are in our current position.
No I didn’t miss the point. You want to upgrade the lineup. Fine. Don’t pick on one of the guys hitting good on the team.
Our actual best option is to just leave the offense alone. Let those guys work out of their funks.
by drumzalicious on May 22, 2011 2:09 AM EDT up reply actions
Uh..no. I don’t just want to “upgrade the lineup”. Did you even read the post?
Freeman is a rookie, Uggla is our new 5 year signing, Heyward is our young stud….we’re not replacing them. The ONLY position that can easily be fixed is centerfield, and Mclouth happens to play there. That’s not picking on him.
I’ve got Jack Johnson and Tom O’Leary waiting for ya, right here
Mclouth can also slide to LF...
which allows Prado to 3rd for Chipper. I’m with you on the biggest thing to target for Wren is a stud CF.
http://sportsandgrits.blogspot.com/
by Mr. Sanchez on May 22, 2011 12:45 PM EDT up reply actions
Mclouth’s glove would probably be league average or above in LF, so I wouldn’t mind that. His bat, however, really doesn’t play anywhere in the OF. In a perfect world I would say he’s be a 4th OF, but with the way Mather and Hinske are hitting, I don’t know if I’d even want him there.
I’ve got Jack Johnson and Tom O’Leary waiting for ya, right here
That's essentially what I'm saying (4th OF)...
you’d add a starting caliber CF, and your first choice lineup would be
McCann, Freeman, Uggla, Gonzalez, Chipper, Prado, CF, Heyward. with Ross, Hinske (as 1B/LF/RF), Mather (same as Hinske), McLouth (CF/LF), and then a SS since Prado can effectively back up 2B or 3B with Hinske, Mather, or McLouth in LF depending on who Fredi wants to play.
http://sportsandgrits.blogspot.com/
It would certainly make the bench look a lot better. Mclouth against righties and pinch running and Mather against lefties.
I’ve got Jack Johnson and Tom O’Leary waiting for ya, right here
But then...
I think that was the most frequent form of rosterbation all winter (the set up I mention above, simply adding a better CF through a trade of pitching depth, with McLouth strengthening the bench). And of course, that never happened.
http://sportsandgrits.blogspot.com/
He doesn’t have his 2009 form. The only upgrade from McLouth to Schafer would be speed, but, then again, the only upgrade from McLouth to Matt Young would be speed and better defense.
SODOKU: HEY, I WASN'T A FAN OF IT 10 YEARS AGO WHEN IT WAS CALLED "MATH".
Defense as well
Schafer is a good defender
People are like at least I'm not that guy on stage. That guy on stage is like at least I'm not that guy in the looney bin. The guy in the looney bin are like at least I'm an orange
more like amazing
the kid was covering 70% of our OF when he was here. It was Garrett Anderson in LF and FYF in RF
by drumzalicious on May 22, 2011 2:10 AM EDT up reply actions
I'd be very interested in...
giving Wilkin Ramirez a shot. We all know he has all the tools. He’d add some VERY needed speed and basestealing ability to our lineup, along with a better opportunity to hit for power than any of our “in house” options. Yes, his b/a a little low, but right now, who’s isn’t? I think it’s at least worth a shot to give him a couple weeks. He might just save us a pitching prospect in the long run
by Nate Schroeder on May 21, 2011 12:56 PM EDT reply actions
The thing is, even though he's improving, he's still striking out quite a bit (22.2% K-rate)
I think some more time in Gwinnett working on plate discipline would be good for him
At this point McLouth is still definitely a better option than him
But he definitely still has potential. He’s slugging .519 this year. September call-up for sure.
"My parents do a lot of things behind the scenes that go unnoticed"- Cam Newton, Heisman acceptance speech.
by TurnerTheBurner on May 21, 2011 2:49 PM EDT up reply actions
In 8 seasons in the Minor Leagues Wilkin has only played 68 games in CF. He’s too big and not fast enough to play CF regularly. You mentioned speed, last season he stole 14 bases and got caught 8 times, the year before he stole 33 and got caught 10 times, so he’s not exactly a burner and when you mix a career .315 OBP and that’ he’s struck out in 31% of his career at bats, he’s not exactly a guy who’s going to unseat anyone.
He has upside, but it’s worth the Braves letting him play longer in AAA this year to see if he can successfully implement some of his adjustments over a longer period. But even if he does he’s only a realistic option for a corner outfield spot.
I wrote a novel, it's about baseball, you should buy it:
http://www.amazon.com/Four-C-B-Wilkins/dp/1449578454/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1257720610&sr=1-1
www.dropoutproductions.com
This is a little snippet after a spring training game. I haven’t actually gotten a chance to see him play for myself, but I’ve seen numerous quotes about his speed and ability to play all three OF positions. Just a suggestion…
"Ramirez put a charge on one," Braves manager Fredi Gonzalez said. "He’s talented. How ‘bout him running? Here’s a kid that’s 6-2 and he can fly. He’s got the ability. Hopefully our guys will get him to be more consistent."
"He can play all three positions in the outfield, he can throw, he can run, can hit for some power. I mean, that’s a nice baseball player."
by Nate Schroeder on May 22, 2011 5:08 AM EDT up reply actions
I’ve seen him play about 30 games. So take my word for it.
I wrote a novel, it's about baseball, you should buy it:
http://www.amazon.com/Four-C-B-Wilkins/dp/1449578454/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1257720610&sr=1-1
www.dropoutproductions.com
Gotcha. I’ll be seeing him for the first time June 11th in Indy.
by Nate Schroeder on May 22, 2011 8:40 AM EDT up reply actions
I don’t know what I was thinking putting any stock in Coach Gonzalez’s baseball IQ or judgement. Total lapse on my part, and it’ll never happen again! lol
by Nate Schroeder on May 22, 2011 8:44 AM EDT up reply actions
I've been away for a minute or three this weekend... BUT...
you’re a pretty new guy to the blog… at least for commenting. I’m not a seasoned vet like some of the guys on here but let me offer a small piece of advice… When asking for peoples opinion on something… and you get a response from someone like cb… It’s not that the coach is wrong or cb is trying to BS you. It’s in your best interest to not take it that way as well.
Also, coaches say things in the media that are meant to boost their players self esteem and make them eager to continue to improve. If you read something where a manager said (for example anything related to Oliver Perez) the guy is a total bum. He can’t play his way out of a wet paper bag… He’s lost his identity as a pitcher and should be paying us to let him play instead of us giving him 10s of millions of dollars…
Instead you hear things like, his velocity is down but he’s locating his pitches. He’s just having bad luck so far…
Or
He’s throwing the ball harder than I’ve seen him throw in years, he’s just working on control…
Those are the kinds of constructive things you hear a coach say…
Long story short, cb and quite a few of the TC originals on here offer opinion based in observation. Not stats driven or favorites driven… Unless you specifically talk to the coach off the record… I generally don’t listen to what they have to say. Scouts on the other hand, valuable quotes.
That’s just my two cents. Solicit for advice, accept opinions and don’t get butt sore when it’s contrary to your own thoughts. :-)
Don’t worry about older women until you turn 22. It’s called the Saltalamacchia.
by bwellnjonesco on May 19, 2011 4:13 PM PDT
by Klemson Krash on May 24, 2011 6:09 AM EDT up reply actions
I completely understand...
I know everyone has their own opinion, and I love that. Yep, I am pretty new to posting on here, but i know that if someone contradicts me or my facts/opinions, it’s just their belief. I won’t ever get upset over anything unless someone is blatently trying to belittle me, lol. I’m a real easy going guy with a passion for baseball, that’s all. I think everyone will find my imputs intellectual/comical with sprinkles of unicorns and rainbows.
It's always an ongoing issue with me. I can never truly decide if it's easier on my sanity to make the playoffs consistently and lose every time? Or would it be easier to just tap out by the All Star break?
by Nate Schroeder on May 28, 2011 12:31 AM EDT up reply actions
No offense, but 30 games is a pretty SSS, eye test or not.
I’ve got Jack Johnson and Tom O’Leary waiting for ya, right here
Awesome. I can’t tell how a guy runs or plays the field or hits in 30 games. Thanks.
I wrote a novel, it's about baseball, you should buy it:
http://www.amazon.com/Four-C-B-Wilkins/dp/1449578454/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1257720610&sr=1-1
www.dropoutproductions.com
I'd wager
99% of scouts have never seen a guy live 30 times before the upcoming MLB draft, yet we’ll rely on their eye as proof of whether a guy is worth a first or second round pick. 30 games is SSS in statistical analysis, but not in visual.
Insanity is doing the same thing over and over expecting different results.
by biggentleben on May 23, 2011 1:46 AM EDT up reply actions
Let us take a chance with Minnesota’s Denard Span or Ben Revere.
"What are you doing, putting the tying run on first base? This is baseball, not backgammon!" -Walter Matheau, The Bad News Bears
No and heck no
I want no part of Revere at all, and Span is very overrated defensively and is a poor baserunner. Only way I’d want part of either of them is if it somehow got Brooks Conrad off of the roster! :p
Insanity is doing the same thing over and over expecting different results.
by biggentleben on May 22, 2011 12:35 AM EDT up reply actions
UZR/150 totals from 2008-2010
Nate Mclouth is a -13.0. Second worst in all of baseball. Only Vernon Wells has been worse.
Two of the guys mentioned (Bourn and Upton) are 3rd and 4th respectively in that time period.
I don’t think defensive prowess in centerfield can be understated. For as much as Andruw added with his bat over the years, it was his defense that meant the most to the team. Adding a top-defender in CF would help take this team to the next level.
I’ve got Jack Johnson and Tom O’Leary waiting for ya, right here
That's just it
The reason we put Andruw out there was his glove. His bat, honestly, wasn’t a lot to write home about. He never offered a 140 OPS+ season, and he was typically in the 110’s. For comparison, Andres Torres had a 119 OPS+ last season, and he was nothing remarkable by any means.
Right this moment, the team’s needs are clearly offensive.
Insanity is doing the same thing over and over expecting different results.
by biggentleben on May 22, 2011 12:45 AM EDT up reply actions
This team isn’t losing because of a lack of defensive prowess in CF.
This guy wants to suck all the cubs dick can he not have an unbias some what partition reguards
by RWH2 on Apr 5, 2010 10:20 AM CDT
by justincredubil02 on May 22, 2011 11:17 AM EDT up reply actions
Nate's OPS right now
.676
I hope Wren is searching the CF market as actively as we are.
I’ve got Jack Johnson and Tom O’Leary waiting for ya, right here
Alex Gonzalez OPS – .684
Dan Uggla’s OPS – .612
I hope Frank is looking for a new middle infield too!
This guy wants to suck all the cubs dick can he not have an unbias some what partition reguards
by RWH2 on Apr 5, 2010 10:20 AM CDT
by justincredubil02 on May 22, 2011 12:39 PM EDT up reply actions
Alex Gonzalez is a top 3 defender at shortstop
Dan Uggla has averaged 30 HR for 4 seasons.
Mclouth’s reason for hope or redeeming quality is…….uh….
I’ve got Jack Johnson and Tom O’Leary waiting for ya, right here
I’m not sure why we can give Alex or Dan a pass because of their defensive qualities, or hitting qualities from the past, but for some reason, we are not allowed to do the same thing for Nate.
This guy wants to suck all the cubs dick can he not have an unbias some what partition reguards
by RWH2 on Apr 5, 2010 10:20 AM CDT
by justincredubil02 on May 22, 2011 1:13 PM EDT up reply actions
Because the last time he hit at an elite level was 1.7 seasons ago?
Mclouth’s claims to fame were power and stolen bases, neither of which he brings anymore.
I’ve got Jack Johnson and Tom O’Leary waiting for ya, right here
He can only steal bases when allowed to do so. The problem with Nate’s lack of SB does not lie with Nate, but with Fredi.
This guy wants to suck all the cubs dick can he not have an unbias some what partition reguards
by RWH2 on Apr 5, 2010 10:20 AM CDT
by justincredubil02 on May 22, 2011 1:48 PM EDT up reply actions
Players have a lot of freedoms on the basepaths. Its not another thing you can blame solely on Fredi.
I’ve got Jack Johnson and Tom O’Leary waiting for ya, right here
whatever we do on the basepaths, it needs to change...
cause that’s been absolutely wretched of late.
http://sportsandgrits.blogspot.com/
Nate has little defensive qualities.
DON'T GO TO SLEEP EARLY OR JEFF FRANCOEUR WILL HAUNT YOUR DREAMS AND LOWER YOUR OBP. - Scott
Nate is 3rd on the team in OBP, behind Chipper and Heap.
Nate is 3rd on the team in runs scored behind Prado and Gonzalez.
This guy wants to suck all the cubs dick can he not have an unbias some what partition reguards
by RWH2 on Apr 5, 2010 10:20 AM CDT
by justincredubil02 on May 22, 2011 1:48 PM EDT up reply actions
When he's hitting, he's a valuable offensive piece...
I agree with you there. Good at getting on base, even last year when his average was in the crapper. And he’s got decent pop, and is generally a good/smart baserunner, possibly one of the best base runners out there (which we’ve seen is a huge problem of late).
But as BullMan said, Nate has extremely limited defensive quality. You mention how Alex and Dan get a pass, well, one has far superior D than McLouth has ever shown (Sea Bass) and the other far superior resume in O (Uggla). Plus Nate is fresh on the heels of a horrid season, which we both know will keep a lot of people from giving him a “pass”, and in fact do just the opposite making them look for things to complain about.
http://sportsandgrits.blogspot.com/
Being 3rd in any category on a team full of struggling players is not really very high praise.
.238/.332/.341
^^ You are defending that.
I’ve got Jack Johnson and Tom O’Leary waiting for ya, right here
And you are ignoring Alex Gonzalez’ worse line.
This guy wants to suck all the cubs dick can he not have an unbias some what partition reguards
by RWH2 on Apr 5, 2010 10:20 AM CDT
by justincredubil02 on May 22, 2011 1:54 PM EDT up reply actions
Because he is the arguably the best defensive shortstop in the NL, which I’ve said multiple times. You’re arguing in circles, which I am 100% not surprised by.
I’ve got Jack Johnson and Tom O’Leary waiting for ya, right here
And you are bashing McLouth when he is one of the better offensive players so far on this team.
You have bashed him since the season began. I wonder how long you had this post queued up, ready to go. You’ve just been waiting for Nate to cool off a bit.
This guy wants to suck all the cubs dick can he not have an unbias some what partition reguards
by RWH2 on Apr 5, 2010 10:20 AM CDT
by justincredubil02 on May 22, 2011 2:21 PM EDT up reply actions
when he is one of the better offensive players so far on this team.
That isn’t an argument for him being bad or not, which is his. These straws can’t take much more grasping. If the whole team had an OPS of .500, his .676 would damn near make him look like a superstar, but it wouldn’t mean he sucks any less.
I’ve got Jack Johnson and Tom O’Leary waiting for ya, right here
So if everyone else, by your own admission, is doing worse or equally bad, why do you have a post about replacing Nate? Why not replace anyone else?
This guy wants to suck all the cubs dick can he not have an unbias some what partition reguards
by RWH2 on Apr 5, 2010 10:20 AM CDT
by justincredubil02 on May 22, 2011 3:26 PM EDT up reply actions
Circles, and circles, and circles, and circles.
I’ve got Jack Johnson and Tom O’Leary waiting for ya, right here
Ah, that makes sense. Thanks for clearing that one up.
This guy wants to suck all the cubs dick can he not have an unbias some what partition reguards
by RWH2 on Apr 5, 2010 10:20 AM CDT
by justincredubil02 on May 22, 2011 5:57 PM EDT up reply actions
because alex gonzalez isn't around for his line...
he;s around for his glove. I wouldn’t call it ignoring as much as acknowledging what they are he for. Gonzalez cause we wanted his presence and glove. McLouth, because we needed a CF desperately two years ago, and have been unable to move him or find someone to take his place since.
http://sportsandgrits.blogspot.com/
He’s also 2nd on the team in BB and 3rd in doubles.
This guy wants to suck all the cubs dick can he not have an unbias some what partition reguards
by RWH2 on Apr 5, 2010 10:20 AM CDT
by justincredubil02 on May 22, 2011 1:54 PM EDT up reply actions
OF qualified NL centerfielders in 2011
Nate Mclouth is dead last in WAR, at -0.2
There’s a ranking stat for ya.
I’ve got Jack Johnson and Tom O’Leary waiting for ya, right here
His negative WAR is mostly, if not entirely from his D. Put him in LF, and he suddenly is a very good defensive player.
This guy wants to suck all the cubs dick can he not have an unbias some what partition reguards
by RWH2 on Apr 5, 2010 10:20 AM CDT
by justincredubil02 on May 22, 2011 2:17 PM EDT up reply actions
Well I unfortunately let Justin troll-argument bomb this thread
But to get it back on track.
This thread is not about Mclouth being the reason this team is losing. I am not advocating replacing Nate simply because I don’t like him. If Heyward were a 29 year old centerfielder in the final year of his contract who was in a 500 AB stretch of sub .700 OPS baseball, I would be advocating replacing him just the same.
It is about finding a way to improve the team, and looking at the logical first place where Wren could do so. That is in CF, where we currently have a player who is awful defensively and not very good defensively. Its really not a crazy concept.
I’ve got Jack Johnson and Tom O’Leary waiting for ya, right here
No. This post is about how you dislike Nate and have disliked him for a long time now.
This guy wants to suck all the cubs dick can he not have an unbias some what partition reguards
by RWH2 on Apr 5, 2010 10:20 AM CDT
by justincredubil02 on May 22, 2011 3:27 PM EDT up reply actions
I often wonder if you use logic in your daily life, and simply dismiss it while posting here.
The fact that I even have to try and explain to you why a player with a .676 OPS and second worst UZR in the league needs replaced speaks for itself.
I’ve got Jack Johnson and Tom O’Leary waiting for ya, right here
There are several Braves players at several positions who are underperforming, but there is only one position that can readily be fixed, and that is centerfield.
So, what part of your logic tells you that CF will be any easier to fix than RF, SS, 2B, 1B? All of those positions are struggling. How can CF “readily be fixed?”
This guy wants to suck all the cubs dick can he not have an unbias some what partition reguards
by RWH2 on Apr 5, 2010 10:20 AM CDT
by justincredubil02 on May 22, 2011 5:58 PM EDT up reply actions
I’ve said it 4 times. You’re playing dense.
Young face of the franchise in RF, new contract in 2B, big hype rookie at 1B who deserves the work things out, gold glove shortstop at SS.
It doesn’t take a genius.
I’ve got Jack Johnson and Tom O’Leary waiting for ya, right here
Careful...
you might make a sarcastic remark and cb will come admonish you for picking on poor lil’ justin.
http://sportsandgrits.blogspot.com/
Welp, Mclouth's going to the DL
Could use an upgrade now more than ever.
I’ve got Jack Johnson and Tom O’Leary waiting for ya, right here
Here's an internal option no one has really discussed
Jose Constanza: In AAA so far he’s batting .297/.349/.333
Obviously not gonna hit for power at all, but has some basepath speed (10 SB, 2 CS), and all we would really be looking for is a #8 hitter anyway
I have no idea how good of a fielder he is, but I do know he can play all three OF positions, which is a plus
"My parents do a lot of things behind the scenes that go unnoticed"- Cam Newton, Heisman acceptance speech.
by TurnerTheBurner on May 23, 2011 12:02 AM EDT reply actions
We are rich
in AAAA type outfielders right now with Matt Young, Constanza, Wilkin Ramirez, etc. that could be short term help. None of them are long-term answers, however.
Insanity is doing the same thing over and over expecting different results.
by biggentleben on May 23, 2011 12:45 AM EDT up reply actions
Oh I just meant until McLouth got back from injury
Ya we have no long term answer at all :/
"My parents do a lot of things behind the scenes that go unnoticed"- Cam Newton, Heisman acceptance speech.
by TurnerTheBurner on May 23, 2011 1:53 AM EDT up reply actions
Just throwing names out there...
Adam Jones, Dexter Fowler, Cameron Maybin, Coco Crisp, Rajai Davis, Peter Bourjos, Aaron Rowand, and Franklin Gutierrez
You said in your post that you considered Jones, Fowler, Maybin, and Crisp, but ruled them out for various reasons. I’m curious as to what those reasons were.
Jones is nothing but upside, Fowler has always intrigued me, Maybin shows flashes of the guy that a lot of people think he can be, and Crisp is a proven veteran who may be unspectacular, but will contribute at least as much as McLouth would.
Rajai Davis is super fast, and he could be your leadoff hitter or bat in the eight hole.
I only bring up Bourjos because of the surplus of outfielders in Anaheim, but he would be a solid option and at worst a fourth outfielder to hold onto.
Rowand has always impressed me with how hard he plays. He’s a shadow of his former self, but again, he can be the fourth outfielder, and he’s right-handed.
I’m not sure what the deal is with Gutierrez is this season, but he’s an excellent center fielder. He would be an enormous defensive improvement over McLouth.
Jones because he has a francoeurian walk rate, questionable defense, and no SB
Fowler because he’s just not that good
Maybin because I assume the Padres consider him untouchable. He’s sort of a poor man’s B.J. Upton. (but I’d love him)
Crisp because he broke “contract under $5 million” rule, but just barely. I wouldn’t mind Crisp, but think the listed players are better for slightly less.
I’ve got Jack Johnson and Tom O’Leary waiting for ya, right here
AHHHHHHHH.... What happened in this thread since I left?!
1st, I can’t reply to everyone in here, so I’m doing my own thing… If you don’t like it. Sue me. :-)
While I don’t 100% agree w/ Justin, his point is valid… to a point. First comment is directed at Justin, this thread isn’t about another position other than CF so the topic was clearly defined and articulated. The reason the other positions weren’t targeted was because… well, the original poster only wanted to discuss this topic… Being a free forum, however, you of course articulated your point that CF wasn’t the only “fixable” position. Warranted point regardless of Who’s on 1st and What’s on 2nd. Of course, you Justin’d your point to the point where confusion was induced and I honestly believe you do that sometimes just for kicks. Regardless… I agree with you that we should and could consider any positional upgrade because depth is never a bad thing. Especially w/ our young RF being rickety right now and our 3B always a bad step away from the DL… Our lack of ML reliable and ready SS (Hicks/Hernandez don’t contribute enough yet, IMHO) would warrant an upgrade there too…
As far as my rosterbation thoughts on CF. Schafer is the answer until he proves he’s not. If he’s not, we have to move on from him as CF of the future. Give the kid a legit shot at the job. Who knows, he might surprise us.
What I don’t want, over-priced, over-aged (30+), over-rated vet on a rental contract. We have the bargaining power to get a young stud if that’s what we’re after. Preferably w/ speed and above average defense.. I’m ok w/ him not having power as long as he can get on base and competently run them.
I am officially declaring myself as the leader of the Schafer Has Incredible Talent committee.
Don’t worry about older women until you turn 22. It’s called the Saltalamacchia.
by bwellnjonesco on May 19, 2011 4:13 PM PDT
It's officially in the rosterbation thread as well...
I placed it there before I saw you put it here. I don’t know how I feel about that… He’s borderline aging… I would have loved him two-three years ago. Maybe becoming a Brave helps him reach his potential…
Don’t worry about older women until you turn 22. It’s called the Saltalamacchia.
by bwellnjonesco on May 19, 2011 4:13 PM PDT
by Klemson Krash on May 24, 2011 11:57 AM EDT up reply actions
Schafer brings defense and speed, which were the two things I listed as needed from a CF upgrade, but we’ll have to see about his bat. I’m still more than a little skeptical about it.
But if he can put up a .260/.340 line I will be complacent for the time being, regardless of how he slugs.
I’ve got Jack Johnson and Tom O’Leary waiting for ya, right here
he looked both inventive in ways to get on and very dangerous when he was on...
these along with his fantastic D are the corner stones of a true lead-off CF. If he keeps playing like he has in the last couple games, he should stay up. He gives the Braves another dimension with his speed.
by Santaklose11 on May 25, 2011 8:41 PM EDT up reply actions
Andrew McCutchen for Nate McLouth, Derek Lowe, and pitching prospects, if needed. That is all.
"What are you doing, putting the tying run on first base? This is baseball, not backgammon!" -Walter Matheau, The Bad News Bears
You need to learn the value of recognizing value...
And some history to boot. The Pirates traded McLouth because they had McCutcheon. There’s no way they’re trading back for him. Lowe and McLouth don’t come remotely close to being valuable enough to net McCutcheon in a trade, anyway.
-C
It’s rough to sit through these games and not have someone that can’t hit a Ball?
I don't think so.
Most people use statistics the way a drunk would use a lamppost—for support, and not for illumination.
www.duwanis.com
I wish it were...
He’s been pretty consistent in providing absolutely abhorrent trade scenarios for some time now. When he launches 4-5 rational ideas in a row, I’ll turn the sarcasm detector back on…
-C
It’s rough to sit through these games and not have someone that can’t hit a Ball?
If he launched 4-5 rational ideas in a row...
it wouldn’t be ChopMaster… :-) We will just keep helping him get better… I find entertainment in 87% of what he writes even if only 25% is logical… Eventually, he will infuse logic and experience into his thoughts and we will have a new Pacgnosis on our hands… Everyone is trainable. :-)
ChopMaster for TC President in 2025!
I should be able to hold it down until then. :-)
Don’t worry about older women until you turn 22. It’s called the Saltalamacchia.
by bwellnjonesco on May 19, 2011 4:13 PM PDT
by Klemson Krash on May 26, 2011 8:04 AM EDT up reply actions
Who’s McCutcheon? Well, we could try to give ’em McLouth right back. But none of this will happen, if Schafer proves himself.
"What are you doing, putting the tying run on first base? This is baseball, not backgammon!" -Walter Matheau, The Bad News Bears
young padawan...
not if… WHEN… Positive vibes here…
Don’t worry about older women until you turn 22. It’s called the Saltalamacchia.
by bwellnjonesco on May 19, 2011 4:13 PM PDT
by Klemson Krash on May 26, 2011 8:44 AM EDT up reply actions
Rajai Davis, anyone? 2010: .321 wOBA, .322 BABIP, 1.2 WAR, .320 OBP, 50-61 SB, -1.58 WPA.
"What are you doing, putting the tying run on first base? This is baseball, not backgammon!" -Walter Matheau, The Bad News Bears
BABIP isn’t a measure of skill.
This guy wants to suck all the cubs dick can he not have an unbias some what partition reguards
by RWH2 on Apr 5, 2010 10:20 AM CDT
by justincredubil02 on May 28, 2011 7:32 PM EDT up reply actions
LoMo or Cogs, anyone?
"What are you doing, putting the tying run on first base? This is baseball, not backgammon!" -Walter Matheau, The Bad News Bears
Neither can play center
No
"Insanity is doing the same thing, over and over again, but expecting different results."
— Albert Einstein
Twitter: @biggentleben
by biggentleben on May 30, 2011 12:13 AM EDT up reply actions
The team’s biggest needs out of a new centerfielder are speed and defense.
So I guess McLouth’s hitting has just been Laudy-Uncle-Tom-Daw this year, huh?
"What are you doing, putting the tying run on first base? This is baseball, not backgammon!" -Walter Matheau, The Bad News Bears
Racist comment is racist
"Insanity is doing the same thing, over and over again, but expecting different results."
— Albert Einstein
Twitter: @biggentleben
by biggentleben on May 30, 2011 12:14 AM EDT up reply actions
im not sure he understands
probably hasn’t read uncle tom’s cabin yet
People are like at least I'm not that guy on stage. That guy on stage is like at least I'm not that guy in the looney bin. The guy in the looney bin are like at least I'm an orange
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