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Around SBN: Celtics Need To Get In The Zone

Who Should Be The Braves Closer?

This is one of those topics that I'm sure we could argue about all night, but I'm going to throw it out there, tell you what I think, and see what everyone else says. In a nutshell, I'm of the opinion that Jonny Venters should be the Braves closer to start the season, not Craig Kimbrel. My reasons:

  1. Venters has a year of Major League experience under his belt, Kimbrel is still wet behind the ears in the Majors. Let Kimbrel settle in for a full year before heaping him with the pressure of closing for a contending team.
  2. Venters has better control and is less likely to get himself into trouble. Even though Venters had a 4.2 BB/9 rate last year, that's right in line with his career minor league rate of 4.1. Kimbrel on the other hand had a 7.0 BB/9 rate in the Majors last year (much of that early on), but his career minor league BB/9 rate is 5.7 (and it was exactly 5.7 last year at Gwinnett).
  3. Even though Venters is a lefty, he's not at all a LOOGY. His lefty-righty splits last year were pretty much the same except for a higher SO/9 ratio against LHH. Venters doesn't seem to strike out as many RHH, though he walks fewer RHH. He also faced RHH twice as much as LHH last year. Venters doesn't need to be the LOOGY, the Braves have two other guys to fill that role -- George Sherrill and Eric O'Flaherty.

Much like the Braves did two years ago when they had Mike Gonzalez and Rafael Soriano, they can employ two closers and matchup the best guy according to the situation. I just can't get past wanting the experience of Venters in the ninth inning, and I believe he's every bit as dominant as Kimbrel. It may be Kimbrel who is the closer at year's end, but I vote for Venters to start the year as the team's stopper.

Kimbrel will still have an important role to play as a key pitcher in high-leverage situations in late innings, but in those situations there will typically be other relievers warming up to come into the game in case Kimbrel gets wild. As a closer in the ninth inning there wouldn't be anyone else warming up in the bullpen, a bullpen that may already be depleted of its other high-leverage setup arms.

Let me know what you think in the comments. There's also a poll.

Poll
Who should be the Braves closer?
Craig Kimbrel
573 votes
Jonny Venters
669 votes

1242 votes | Poll has closed

Comment 44 comments  |  0 recs  | 

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Scott Proctor.

Morgan: Do you think I could come into the clubhouse after the game and display my ass for both those veterans and the younger guys?

Baker: Well, Joe, you are on the payroll of the team, and you're a legend, so I suppose — holy shit!

[Joe has appeared next to Dusty, in the dugout, completely naked]

Morgan: Hey.

by TradeAndruw on Mar 17, 2011 3:10 PM EDT reply actions   1 recs

LOL

That’d be like having Jeffy bat leadoff.

That Heyward guy is pretty good.

by another simpsons avatar on Mar 17, 2011 3:22 PM EDT up reply actions  

I agree

Despite the fact that Venters came out of nowhere and only has one great year behind him, I don’t really view Venters as a question mark at all. I feel pretty comfortable saying that he’s going to continue to shut hitters down in 2011, and I’d be just fine with him being the closer to start the season.

I love both of them, and I can’t believe we actually get to have both of these guys on our team as long as we do (speaking about how far away from free agency they are). Still, Kimbrel is a little shaky with his accuracy, and until he’s really proven that he can hone it again like he did at the end of last year, Venters should get the nod ahead of him.

by gilley on Mar 17, 2011 3:16 PM EDT reply actions  

After watching Kimbrell pitch in August/September last year.....

Experience is overrated.

The kid can pitch, can pitch in pressure situations, and his wildness is Vaughn like, in that guys just can’t seem to place where the pitches are going. I like that, and prefer being able to get the strike out with consistency because he’s not going to throw two pitches in the same spot twice.

If he was getting rocked because his balls were missing the spots, but staying in the zone, and at a hittable level, that’s one thing. Guys are missing because they just can’t figure out where to swing, and that is great for a closer.

Better, in my opinion, than being able to get a ground ball.

by garlick on Mar 17, 2011 3:24 PM EDT reply actions   1 recs

BTW, I think it’s great we have both, and wouldn’t be disappointed with either closing to start the season, but I just like Kimbrell in that spot, and Venters as an 8th inning, ground ball specialist type, when ground balls are more valuable.

by garlick on Mar 17, 2011 3:26 PM EDT reply actions  

Kimbrel

This is a bad thing that we have… 2 good yound closers with All star potential and the worst part we can’t chose which one to close. Man this stinks…

 I was looking at both guys splits and I was just amazed at the differnce in the stats. I know Kimbrel hasn’t had the “experience” , but if Venters can come in a pitch a whole season at his potential then why can’t kimbrel
                               vs R vs L
Kimbrel .077 .177
Venters .206 .192

I think Venters should come into save against a hard lefty lineup such as Philly, but otherwise Kimbrel should save. If Kimbrel falters than we can just put in Venters. Kimbrel has the firepower and the whiffs but Kimbrel has groundballs and half the amount of whiffs. I would even be happy with a platoon.

"I came to the Mets to be on a winning team"

-Chris Young

by BravosFanatic on Mar 17, 2011 3:30 PM EDT reply actions  

agreed

It’s awesome having both. And I loved that Venters wasn’t just a situational lefty last year, BUT, I lean towards Kimbrel. If it ends up being a Soriano/Gonzalez type situation, fine. But I think Craig, who has been groomed for the job, should get the nod. At least initially.
Either way, WOW. Helluva “problem” to have.

by SidBreamsSlide on Mar 17, 2011 3:37 PM EDT up reply actions  

Kimbrel’s been groomed as a closer. Even with his high walk rate, he’s managed a low WHIP (1.12) and ERA (1.85) in the Minors. He’s struck out 14.4/9 over the course of 151 innings. Enough said. Give me Kimbrel.

Bubba Sparxxx: It's gettin' Uggla...IN HERE! UP IN HERE!

by ryan c on Mar 17, 2011 3:37 PM EDT reply actions  

Our pitching decisions

really don’t concern me at all. I’d be happy with Venters or Kimbrel closing, just like I’d be happy with either Beachy or Minor in the 5th slot. I don’t see a major difference one way or the other, and in the event our first choice doesn’t work out, the second option is still there to back him up.

"…the umps in San Francisco somehow missed Brooks Conrad’s tag at second base on a sliding Buster Posey, who could’ve been called out from a houseboat in Sausalito."
-- Tommy Craggs

by duwanis on Mar 17, 2011 3:37 PM EDT reply actions  

I had been thinking Kimbrel, but you’ve swayed me toward Venters. He was incredibly effective last year. There’s a reason “everyday” Jonny was used every day.

LIVE EDT

Tape-delayed for the West Coast

by TheLetter2 on Mar 17, 2011 3:39 PM EDT reply actions  

both?

i would rather use them based on the match ups. It’s a shame how the save stat has ruined bullpen management.

by Windu on Mar 17, 2011 3:46 PM EDT reply actions   1 recs

At this point I have more confidence in Venters, and don’t want to see him limited to just pitching the ninth.

by dutchschultz on Mar 17, 2011 3:59 PM EDT reply actions  

Kimbrel is still wet behind the ears in the Majors. Let Kimbrel settle in for a full year before heaping him with the pressure of closing for a contending team.

Didn’t stop Jonathan Papelbon. Dude tuned up for 34 innings one year (which is more than Kimbrel’s 21, but it’s not like there’s an ocean of difference there), then walked out and saved 35 with a sub-1 ERA the next year. I’m not saying Kimbrel will or should be expected to put up a sub-1 ERA, but if you’ve got it, you’ve got it, and there’s no sense in coddling him. A 2.50 or less ERA and 30-40 saves ought to be attainable. And let’s face it- we know Kimbrel’s going to walk a lot of folks. Unless he really refines his control over the next year or two, which is doubtful given how high his walk rate stayed in the minors, those walks are coming regardless, so just install him as closer and let’s be done with it.

"Life is a lot like a baseball game- you want your team to win, you want it to be a thriller, you don't want it to be called short on account of nature, and you wouldn't mind if it went into extra innings." -Dante Shepherd, survivingtheworld.net

by J-Freak on Mar 17, 2011 4:04 PM EDT reply actions  

Both

Are good and it could be argued that Kimbrel should get the bulk of closing and Venters should be set up, as setup men tend to come in with inherited runners and has a smaller margin for error, whereas in a save situation the team could be up 3 runs

"I wasn’t thinking about it. That’s the worst celebration of all time. I didn’t know what to do. I got lost in the moment." - Brian McCann

by HansonManCrush on Mar 17, 2011 4:06 PM EDT via mobile reply actions  

I say venters..but..it just depends on what the lineup coming up in the 9th

looks like..I faced Kimbrel twice before..drew a walk and struckout..got nasty stuff.

The poster formally known as SidGlaus

by SidFreeman on Mar 17, 2011 4:15 PM EDT reply actions  

Both

Depending on who is available and which hitters are up in the ninth…. I think both will be closers in the Major Leagues

by Fatvirus on Mar 17, 2011 4:41 PM EDT reply actions  

+1

"…the umps in San Francisco somehow missed Brooks Conrad’s tag at second base on a sliding Buster Posey, who could’ve been called out from a houseboat in Sausalito."
-- Tommy Craggs

by duwanis on Mar 17, 2011 4:49 PM EDT up reply actions  

What’s really nice is despite having one of these guys reserved for the sacred "Closer"tm role, we’ll have an ace reliever to pitch high leverage innings that occur outside the ninth. There’s typically a lot of those in a season.

by Atlantaspike on Mar 17, 2011 5:10 PM EDT reply actions  

I’d say it should be situational, based on the projected lineup.

Kimbrel I think will have a better year though, I’m a little worried that Everyday Johnny was overworked last year.

by Broccoman on Mar 17, 2011 5:13 PM EDT reply actions  

closer

What a Great choice to have…….both are beast !

by Johsue on Mar 17, 2011 5:24 PM EDT reply actions  

Really surprised Venters is leading the vote

Kimbrel is just too dominating to put anywhere else. If a guy is getting a 15K/9 or better, there’s no place to put him but closing the door.

How do I feel? Like f**king success - Jordan Schafer

We had the midget mafia over at second base: Me, Uggla and Conrad - Matt Young

by ATLandUNC on Mar 17, 2011 5:26 PM EDT reply actions  

Closer vs Setup man

To me, setup men get more innings. There is a greater chance of Venters pitching in the 6th, 7th, or 8th innings in a close game than coming in in the 8th/9th innings when he is a closer.

Based on that fact along, I want Venters to eat up innings and be our setup man so that we can GET to the 9th and let Kimbrel close it down for us.

Plus, Kimbrel was supposedly built for the closing role. I’m not sure how I like him as a setup man (but that is personal opinion that can’t be translated into facts).

by utmfisher19 on Mar 17, 2011 5:28 PM EDT reply actions  

No option C?

the mix and match ala Soriano/Gonzo a few years ago move? Gonzo and Wren have discussed this exact option as likely to start the year.

http://sportsandgrits.blogspot.com/

by Mr. Sanchez on Mar 17, 2011 5:37 PM EDT reply actions  

Closer platoon

Clearly. Should have been a poll option

by Bronn on Mar 17, 2011 6:35 PM EDT reply actions  

Both kids are filthy...

good…closer by committee is the way to go, keep em both fresh all year long…

by abudefdef on Mar 17, 2011 6:55 PM EDT reply actions  

Keeps the price down by limiting the magical Save number too.

by Atlantaspike on Mar 17, 2011 7:29 PM EDT up reply actions  

Agreed with a few other folks

that the best way of doing it is the platoon option. Since both guys are young and seem pretty ego-free, it shouldn’t be too much of an issue. And the benefits are potentially large, particularly since Fredi can also switch them off easily if one is overworked or struggling. I just don’t see a reason to “choose” one or the other, at least not yet. If one pitches much better than the other in the first couple months, maybe you reevaluate then.

I do think we are all probably overvaluing Jonny a bit… I think last year may end up being his career year… He seemed to benefit from luck quite a bit, too. Of course, I still think he’s pretty damn good, and certainly capable of closing. Just not “ERA under 2.00 every year” good. Of course, Kimbrel’s no sure thing, either. I rate them about even for this season.

"Yeah, and I have an enchanted jock strap." -- Karl Karlson

by Jacob Peterson on Mar 17, 2011 6:56 PM EDT reply actions  

Kimbrel..

if for no other reason than you don’t want your Carlos Marmol type coming into the game in any situation except a clean inning, when you can help it.

Venters is versatile in that he mixes in strikeouts and groundballs, with the latter making him valuable in mopping up another reliever’s mess. Though I don’t agree with using a reliever in a strict 9th inning save situation only role, we’re almost certainly going to get that regardless.

by YakuzaFro on Mar 17, 2011 9:18 PM EDT reply actions  

This could be a catastrophe in the making...

Kimbrel 8, Venters 9…I would like to see Kimbrel get a year under his belt in the set up role. The one thing that cannot happen is the “two headed monster” routine. Give them each their own job, which ever it is, and let them prove their metal for the entire season. Let’s just hope this offense and our starters meet their capabilities and we won’t have need for too many saves right?

by Marshall S on Mar 17, 2011 9:53 PM EDT reply actions  

Billy Wagner

Still on roster.

Q: If not us, who? If not now, when? A: The Batman. And "when you least expect it."

by Lennox on Mar 17, 2011 10:13 PM EDT reply actions  

could you imagine

wagner as closer
venters as lh setup
kimbrel as rh setup

every game would be 7 innings long

by austinhb on Mar 17, 2011 11:12 PM EDT up reply actions  

Is there a reason Wagner hasn’t retired yet? I think I read something about it having something to do with the option year the Braves gave him and that somehow by waiting to retire it saves the Braves money. I have no idea if that’s true or if I misread something. I’d just like to know if there is actually a reason why he hasn’t officially retired.

by gilley on Mar 18, 2011 12:46 AM EDT up reply actions  

Probably true...

If he’s on the 40-man and not getting paid, it’s saving us from promoting a guy to make 40-man money. Once we need to fill that spot, he could go…it probably isn’t much money, tho.

But I don’t know that there’s a rule against leaving a 40-man spot empty, either…so maybe I’m just blowing smoke up your ass.

-C

It’s rough to sit through these games and not have someone that can’t hit a Ball?

by cthabeerman on Mar 18, 2011 9:25 AM EDT up reply actions  

There better not be

We had 37 men on the 40-man at one point last year, if I recall correctly.

"…the umps in San Francisco somehow missed Brooks Conrad’s tag at second base on a sliding Buster Posey, who could’ve been called out from a houseboat in Sausalito."
-- Tommy Craggs

by duwanis on Mar 18, 2011 9:26 AM EDT up reply actions  

I agree w those who consider the roles more than the degree of awesomeness these pitchers possess.. I do think you manage the bull pen to get centers the close against a team w a left handed heart. I also agree you don’t want kimbrel with out a clean slate. It is also nice to have an 8th inning guy that can get another guy out of a jam, and that is not kimbrel.

by willlinn on Mar 17, 2011 11:50 PM EDT via mobile reply actions  

also, if yiu make venters closer

You have the problem of demoting him when kimbrel is ready and that’s bs if he is pitching well… so I think early you keep it loose, let them both into some 8th and 9th innings, then you hope to move into a semi platoon in which kimbrel is the closer, but is flexible to who is coming up in the order between the 8th or 9th

by willlinn on Mar 17, 2011 11:53 PM EDT via mobile reply actions  

Kimbrel or Venters?

This is one of those “good problems”. It’s like trying to choose between a smokin hot brunette and a smokin hot blonde…yet knowing that you still get to have both

by AU_Jonesy on Mar 18, 2011 8:17 AM EDT reply actions  

That's the great thing

We don’t even have to sneak around and try to manage two dates on one night, sitcom-style. From what I’ve seen with these guys, I don’t think we have to worry too much about hurting anybody’s feelings this year.

"…the umps in San Francisco somehow missed Brooks Conrad’s tag at second base on a sliding Buster Posey, who could’ve been called out from a houseboat in Sausalito."
-- Tommy Craggs

by duwanis on Mar 18, 2011 9:06 AM EDT up reply actions  

venters

If kimbrell is not the closer he can be used in high pressure situations that we need a righty for. I don’t quite trust Linebrink with the game on the line and in my mind Moylan is the groundball double play guy.

You won't always agree with me...Because sometimes you're wrong.

by JonnyBravesFan on Mar 19, 2011 9:30 AM EDT via mobile reply actions  

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