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Cautious Fan Projections For Atlanta Braves Infielders

The results of the Atlanta Braves fan projections for the starting infield are in ... and they're quite sensible; cautious even. Over the past two weeks we asked the readers of Talking Chop to predict the numbers for the projected starting infield. Here are the results, as an average of all the submissions:

Player (Fan Projection)
PA AVG OBP HR
Brian McCann 541 .290 .377 25
Freddie Freeman 530 .278 .351 17
Dan Uggla 589 .276 .356 31
Alex Gonzalez 548 .256 .311 15
Chipper Jones 454 .287 .391 17

Nothing is really too far out of bounds on any of these numbers. For reference, here are the career rate stat averages for these players:

Player (Career Averages) AVG OBP
Brian McCann .289 .360
Freddie Freeman (minors) .301 .363
Dan Uggla .263 .349
Alex Gonzalez .248 .294
Chipper Jones .306 .405

None of the projections are more than .017 points higher than their career averages, and several are even below their career averages. Even the plate appearance and home run totals are not out of control. If the Braves manage to put up these numbers, they won't be blowing anyone away, but they'll be a lineup of solid run producers. Of course, someone is bound to have a great year, and another is bound to have a bad year, the hope is that there aren't too many of the latter.

Projections for the outfielders will be up next.

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Freeman

If Freddie Freeman goes yard 17 times in his rookie year, I’ll be delightfully shocked.

by Jeff. on Mar 17, 2011 9:03 AM EDT reply actions  

Put it in the bank

Freddie will hit between 15-20 no doubt as long as he gets his 450+ PA’s

McCann facial hair=Epic

by heyward4prez on Mar 17, 2011 9:24 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

If he hits that many homers and he is still a doubles machine then he will be a monster

"I came to the Mets to be on a winning team"

-Chris Young

by BravosFanatic on Mar 17, 2011 9:32 AM EDT up reply actions  

Just for contrast, ZIPS for those guys

McCann .275 .357 22
Freeman .272 .333 18
Uggla .259 .346 29
Gonzalez .253 .295 14
Jones .258 .370 11

about 150 or so games apiece, except Chipper (100) and AAG (129)

by Atlantaspike on Mar 17, 2011 9:04 AM EDT reply actions  

Bill James

Freeman: .283/335/446
McCann: .280/366/493
Uggla: .256/346/471
Gonzalez:. .241/291/405
Jones: .288/401481

"I came to the Mets to be on a winning team"

-Chris Young

by BravosFanatic on Mar 17, 2011 9:31 AM EDT reply actions  

Looks like we are all agreed that Alex Gonzalez is an off-base machine, as it were.

by Atlantaspike on Mar 17, 2011 9:42 AM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

His projected lines looks horrible but he is a slick fielding shortstop

"I came to the Mets to be on a winning team"

-Chris Young

by BravosFanatic on Mar 17, 2011 9:44 AM EDT up reply actions  

We’ll just agree to disagree on that one. I have as much skepticism of defensive stats as anyone, but his dWAR agrees with what I see when I watch him play.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/g/gonzaal02.shtml

by Atlantaspike on Mar 17, 2011 9:56 AM EDT up reply actions  

B-R uses an older fielding statistic...

…that I don’t think is nearly as good as UZR (and honestly, even UZR has its problems). Gonzo’s UZR has been pretty consistently good throughout his career. You can find the numbers at Fangraphs.

by cavebird on Mar 17, 2011 10:04 AM EDT up reply actions  

His UZR/150 is all over the map, which goes to the “problems” with UZR, but that’s a bit of a tangent. He looked terrible out there defensively, for Atlanta anyway, and he’s 34. We’re stuck with him, so there is no use arguing the point, but he appears to me just adequate defensively at best. It’s definitely a weak spot in the lineup.

by Atlantaspike on Mar 17, 2011 10:33 AM EDT up reply actions  

He has Great Zone coverage according to stats if you want to use stats

His Total Zone above average though is the best in the league at a 11 and he made a whole 74 plays out of the zone which is again best in the league.

"I came to the Mets to be on a winning team"

-Chris Young

by BravosFanatic on Mar 17, 2011 11:00 AM EDT up reply actions  

His defense is incredibly consistent...

And positive in nature, barring one slightly negative year of UZR. Only two seasons where his UZR or UZR/150 were under 5 (the one negative year, and his UZR and UZR/150 were individually below 5 in separate seasons). This means he’s pretty darn good defensively. His UZR and UZR/150 ratings since the stat was invented are both 2nd among all shortstops for that nine-year period.

 People gave Sea Bass a lot of flack over his defense early, which was understandable considering he made 7 errors in his first 11 games. Only one error after that and he was incredibly solid up until the playoff run.

If you think he’s adequate at best, you’ve missed the boat or just haven’t spent enough time actually delving into the numbers.

-C

It’s rough to sit through these games and not have someone that can’t hit a Ball?

by cthabeerman on Mar 17, 2011 11:01 AM EDT up reply actions  

If you find defensive stats to be reliable, that’s great. B-R’s dWAR doesn’t like him, TZ has him at 4,2,1,0 and 11 runs above average for the last 5 seasons. That’s a pretty massive variance. UZR/150 has him at -2.4, 14.6,12.2, and 4.2 Do you really think his defense oscillated that much in those years? If you have found something that supports your POV and like it, more power to you. Whatever you like or don’t about dWAR, at least it has him consistently around the same level – average or a bit below.

And about that gaudy 11 figure – do you honestly think AG was the best defensive shortstop in ALL OF BASEBALL last year? But it’s all good – I hope you are right – it’s not like he’s going to hit in any event.

by Atlantaspike on Mar 17, 2011 11:24 AM EDT up reply actions  

You know what i meant…

He has his perks and he has his weaknesses. and obviously his Zone was very good last year

"I came to the Mets to be on a winning team"

-Chris Young

by BravosFanatic on Mar 17, 2011 11:35 AM EDT up reply actions  

Over nine years...

Yes, I consider defensive statistics like UZR to be stable enough to show reliable results. Nine years (eight for Sea Bass because he missed a year) is a sufficient amount of data.

dWAR is one of the worst defensive statistics to use, according to most sabermetricians. It doesn’t account for anything other than defensive chances, putouts, assists, errors, and double plays turned. UZR uses items like where the ball was hit, the ball’s velocity, and a host of other variables, comparing the player to all other players making similar plays at that position in order to come to a conclusion. It’s a much more comprehensive statistic.

There is no defensive stat that can directly correlate to any one player’s true talent level, but +/- and UZR certainly come the closest by comparing players against each other to form a relative scale. dWAR doesn’t even attempt to compare players.

With dWAR, if one 2B fields a softly-hit grounder for an easy out and another 2B dives for a screamer up the middle and throws the runner out from his knees, it counts the same. If the screamer was hit by Michael Bourn and he’s safe, it counts against the fielder. If the fielder doesn’t get to the ball, it doesn’t count at all. If the 2B fields the ball and flips it to the SS to turn a potential DP, but the SS drops the ball on a good throw, it counts against the 2B. These types of plays happen every game, across the league, and the context of each is completely lost in dWAR.

You see large fluctuations and are scared by them, but they aren’t scary at all. With defensive stats, just look at trends. Barring one year, they’re all positive. Most years sit between a 5 and +10, with a few fluctuating above and a couple below. I’d put 5 at above average, 10 at excellent, and 15 at elite as a general trending scale (and the opposite for the negatives). So he’s been above average to excellent most of his career.

Any one year can be wherever, it’s the overall trend that matters. If he puts up a +13 or a +2 in any given year isn’t that big of a deal, but a UZR/150 of about 7.5 for an eight-year sample size is a good indicator of how he does versus other SSs comparatively.

Now, if he finished several seasons in a row with a negative value as his career winds down, then that would be a good indicator that the defense is starting to derail. But we’ve not seen that, so it’s not time to cry wolf just yet. Even if he regresses to a slightly above-average fielder, he’ll be worth the money we’re paying him (in comparison to another FA…obviously, minimum and arbitration players have discounted salaries and aren’t an entirely fair comparison, money-wise).

For this season, I’m not at all worried about Sea Bass in the field.

-C

It’s rough to sit through these games and not have someone that can’t hit a Ball?

by cthabeerman on Mar 17, 2011 12:11 PM EDT up reply actions  

dWAR is one of the worst defensive statistics to use, according to most sabermetricians.

snip

With dWAR, if one 2B fields a softly-hit grounder for an easy out and another 2B dives for a screamer up the middle

MGL, is that you?

http://www.insidethebook.com/ee/index.php/site/comments/war_or_warp_if_you_must_but_not_vorp/

by Atlantaspike on Mar 17, 2011 12:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

Ha...

I wish I created UZR, but I did no such thing. I do have a couple statistical experiments lined up for this season and one continuing from last year, but nothing as grand as UZR or any other statistics.

Just case studies, really. They shouldn’t amount to anything more than an interesting article 3-5 years from now. I cannot imagine the amount of work that would go into creating a statistic that becomes a staple in any sabermetrician’s diet.

-C

It’s rough to sit through these games and not have someone that can’t hit a Ball?

by cthabeerman on Mar 17, 2011 12:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

The 2B comparison reminded me of Michael’s comment in the thread. Lots of heavy hitter SABR types, and far from consensus on the subject of which, if any system is reliable. I’ll be interested to see the results of your model.

by Atlantaspike on Mar 17, 2011 12:45 PM EDT up reply actions  

Homers

Freeman 16
McCann 24
Uggla 31
Gonzo 13
Larry 17

"I came to the Mets to be on a winning team"

-Chris Young

by BravosFanatic on Mar 17, 2011 9:43 AM EDT up reply actions  

The projections are only cautious if you compare them against overly optimistic homeristic thoughts.

The projections are, in fact, a bit high all around. McCann’s rate stats seem fine, but 25 HR is a bit more than we should expect. Uggla’s HR total seems about right, but his batting average is pretty high. Freeman’s projections are quite optimistic, and comparing them to Freeman’s career minor league numbers isn’t really a way to say that they are not optimistic. Gonzo’s projected OBP is over .310, that has to be too optimistic. Finally, Chipper’s numbers, while lower than his career numbers, are optimistic; most guys at his age don’t approach their career numbers.

Basically, if you offered Braves’ fans this production from the infielders, I think most would happily take them. I know I would. Given that, I can’t agree that the projections are cautious.

by cavebird on Mar 17, 2011 10:08 AM EDT reply actions  

Agree except for McCann

I think that the higher OBP we saw out of him last year (even with a lower overall average) will show dividends in the power department this year. If anything, I would ? his BA moreso than his power.

On the other guys though, yeah, I’d agree that they are optimistic. But not so optimistic that I’d think they are out of bounds for the homer fan base during ST.

by theatlfan on Mar 17, 2011 3:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

/nods thoughtfully

This is all very reasonable. Sounds good to me.

LIVE EDT

Tape-delayed for the West Coast

by TheLetter2 on Mar 17, 2011 10:28 AM EDT reply actions  

Did I miss the community prospect list?

Or has it not been released yet?

"If I have asthma, they won't let me scuba. And if I can’t scuba, then what’s this all been about?? What am I working toward??"

"You look like you should be married to one of the San Diego Padres."

by Doghnut on Mar 17, 2011 10:39 AM EDT reply actions  

I don’t think it has been released yet or both of us missed it

"I came to the Mets to be on a winning team"

-Chris Young

by BravosFanatic on Mar 17, 2011 11:09 AM EDT up reply actions  

I’ll have to get off my ass and get that done at some point, unless someone wants to volunteer to do it….

by gondeee on Mar 17, 2011 1:43 PM EDT up reply actions  

I vote for you getting off your ass

We don’t pay for Premium Memberships for service like this, gondeee

"If I have asthma, they won't let me scuba. And if I can’t scuba, then what’s this all been about?? What am I working toward??"

"You look like you should be married to one of the San Diego Padres."

by Doghnut on Mar 17, 2011 2:05 PM EDT up reply actions  

Tho Ill say I wouldnt mind doing the spreadsheet work.

I just dont know if I would be any faster than you, unfortunately.

"If I have asthma, they won't let me scuba. And if I can’t scuba, then what’s this all been about?? What am I working toward??"

"You look like you should be married to one of the San Diego Padres."

by Doghnut on Mar 17, 2011 2:09 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think a couple of these are a bit high:

Gonzalez and Chipper, in particular. I think B-Mac will at least match those numbers, even the HRs, which are a bit high. It’s time for a career year from him. I also don’t think Uggla will match that AVG—maybe the OBP and HRs, though.

Still, overall, these are surprisingly restrained, unlike the starting pitcher projections, which were pretty out there.

"Yeah, and I have an enchanted jock strap." -- Karl Karlson

by Jacob Peterson on Mar 17, 2011 11:26 AM EDT reply actions  

Let me ask, if I may, why is it “time” for a career year? What factors play into that?

LIVE EDT

Tape-delayed for the West Coast

by TheLetter2 on Mar 17, 2011 12:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'm guessing age...

He’s at the age that should be considered the peak of his career…maybe 3-4 years before he’s projected to decline (although some are now saying the decline comes earlier, at about 29+, but still say 27-28 are the peak seasons).

I also think finally getting his eyesight under wraps could be a decent reason for a potential career season.

-C

It’s rough to sit through these games and not have someone that can’t hit a Ball?

by cthabeerman on Mar 17, 2011 12:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

Okay, that’s interesting.

LIVE EDT

Tape-delayed for the West Coast

by TheLetter2 on Mar 17, 2011 12:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

Another thought (not as sunny)...

Does anyone think that McCann’s previous problems with eyesight will further damage his psyche (or whatever you want to call it) in the wake of the Luis Salazar incident?? Here’s a guy that’s struggled with a problem for 2-3 years or so, finally gets it corrected, and then is the indirect (and blameless) cause of the same problem for another, to a much worse extent in that particular case.

Obviously, it’s just a sad circumstance of fate, and I hope he’s able to pull himself out of it…but it may be more difficult and take more time for him to bounce back than most of us think. I don’t know if now’s the time for such somber thoughts, but it will be interesting to see how this season develops for him. Obviously, I wish everyone the best and hope they’re all able to move forward.

-C

It’s rough to sit through these games and not have someone that can’t hit a Ball?

by cthabeerman on Mar 17, 2011 12:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

I don't remember who was asking,

but for whoever asked about the SBN blogs with the highest traffic, TC is #1 in the NL and #2 overall, (surprisingly) behind Lookout Landing (Mariners). I’m pretty sure they’re heavily backed by FanGraphs and that’s a big reason for their high traffic, along with being a very good blog.

Good work everyone.

"That guy mvhsbball is really an insufferable schmuck." - FuquaManuel

by Scott Coleman on Mar 17, 2011 12:14 PM EDT via mobile reply actions  

I wasn’t asking, but I did make fun of it. Does that help?

LIVE EDT

Tape-delayed for the West Coast

by TheLetter2 on Mar 17, 2011 12:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

Go Team Venture TalkingChop!

Morton hit Heyward with an offspeed pitch. Early indication is that the baseball survived the impact.

by award6 on Mar 17, 2011 1:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

We actually swap places with LL for first and second, and have been for the past few months. Nice work everyone. Continue to waste your time here. Thanks.

by gondeee on Mar 17, 2011 1:45 PM EDT up reply actions  

You’re peachy this morning.

"That guy mvhsbball is really an insufferable schmuck." - FuquaManuel

by Scott Coleman on Mar 17, 2011 1:49 PM EDT up reply actions  

I prefer to think of it as an investment of time.

I like people until I meet them.

by scorby911 on Mar 17, 2011 4:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

Is TC regularly at the top or is it only the past few months? I just started becoming a part of the traffic in late November and was wondering if TC is always among the most visited, going back to past seasons or is this is a new trend?

by CMassey on Mar 18, 2011 3:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

The one that jumps out at me is Uggla's batting average

I think we got his OBP and HR’s right, though (which are unequivocally more important than his batting average, though it’s interesting we’ve cut his walk rate quite a bit). Not that it really matters, but I’d be surprised if he hits .276.

"The WAR folks like yunel apparently. i know this, bobby cox hated going to war with this guy." - Jon Heyman

Beyond the Box Score / Capitol Avenue Club / shwitter: @CapitolAvenue

by PWHjort on Mar 17, 2011 8:12 PM EDT reply actions  

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