SB Nation Atlanta Editor's Pick
Derek Lowe has shown to be the right move
It's Better to Be Lucky Than Smart: Circa 2008 Offseason
In the wake of the disaster what was a promising Atlanta Braves 2008 season, the front office had to make some big splashes. Loud moves were needed, not only bring the team into contention but also show the declining fan base that The Atlanta Braves were still a winning organization that merely had a bump in the road. Essentially, front office moves were as much about the actions of making the team better as making the team better itself. These offseason moves included bringing back Tom Glavine, trading for Javier Vazquez, signing a Japanese starter (what could go wrong?), and a front of the line starter with a big-game reputation-- Derek Lowe. Derek Lowe, of course, was not the ideal option for Frank Wren and Co. In fact, he was Plan C. Not in many realms of life do Plan C's ever work out. But it has for Atlanta, proving it's better to be lucky than smart.
The ideal move for the front office was a trade for Cy Young award winner Jake Peavy. Despite going on the DL for the second time in his career and playing for a terrible team in 2008, Peavy had 2.85 ERA with a 2.81 SO/BB ratio and a WHIP of just 1.18. This was Plan A because Peavy was the only surefire ace on the market the Braves could afford. The Padres lost 99 games with Peavy; the Padres' mindset was to cut payroll the following year because if you're going to lose, lose with the kids. Through strained negotiations, Wren made the right decision not to give the deed to the farm over to San Diego. Some asking price discussions included Yunel Escobar and Tommy Hanson. Perhaps there were concerns about Peavy's durability from his 2008 DL stint which may have caused Wren not to accept San Diego's offers, considering 4 of the 5 Braves starting pitchers spent significant time on the DL in 2008. Sure, there were outcries two years ago over not trading some minor leaguers for one of the top 5 pitchers in baseball at that point, but Wren didn't give in to outrageous demands because there were other viable options.
Plan B was a free agent signing for the familiar name of A.J. Burnett. Typically, gaudy free agent signings aren't the Braves M.O. (for good reason). But Burnett was the best free agent starting pitcher that off season not named C.C. He also came off a solid year were he set career highs in games started and led the AL in strikeouts, all while pitching in the toughest division in MLB. A moderately young pitcher who was familiar with the NL East was exactly what the front office was looking for and Burnett fit the bill. The front office looked past some dependability issues and offered him a generous contract, only to see him later turn it down. Burnett later said he preferred to be a tree in the forest among the New York Yankees rather than be asked to carry the weight of bringing the Braves back into relevancy. There wasn't much that could have been done here. If he doesn't want to play for an organization, he's not going to.The aftermath of the Burnett dealings left Wren with little room to bargain.
Things were certainly looking down for Wren, despite trading for an (at the time was a mere) innings eater, Javier Vazquez. The braves had no real statement which had to be made -- a legitimate opening day starter. Their Plan C was Derek Lowe. To make matters worse, he was a Boras Client. Wren had no cards to play, and now Lowe and Boras were considering a 3 year contract with the Mets. This Mets variable made the signing of Lowe even more crucial, due to the fact that this deal became a defensive move against the rival Mets as much as an addition to make the team better. Wren had to offer "Plan C", a 35 year old who was six years removed from his last All-Star team, to a guaranteed fourth year. Boras saw a front office having arguably the worst of the offseasons among all front offices, which had no cards to play, and needed to make a big splash which was sought by everyone, even publicly by Bobby Cox. The end result was a four year deal, which makes sense, attached to a 15 million dollar annual salary, which clearly made no sense at all. Wren and the rest of the front office not only bid against themselves, but did so two or three times. They were the only team offering four years, and the only team offering anything more than 12-13 million/yr. How it got to 4 years/60 million, I don't know. But the Braves were desperate and the end result was "Plan C" starting opening night on national television.
It would have taken several more of the efforts that Derek Lowe had shown on opening night 2009 (8 IP, 0 R) to justify his infamous contract. Alas, what Atlanta got was mediocrity, mediocrity, mediocrity. When post-Tommy John Tim Hudson came back in August, "Plan C" had the highest ERA on the staff, including two rookies. Despite pitching better at the time, the Japanese rookie Kawakami was moved to the bullpen. Lowe should have been moved to the bullpen in late 2009 as Kawakami was progressing and pitching better at the time, while Lowe was much better suited in the bullpen role due to a a previous reliever role with Boston.However, Derek Lowe's dependability was as advertised in more ways than one. He never missed a start in 2009, all while his ERA rose on a steady pace to an eventual 4.67. "Plan C" appeared to be an obvious gaffe by the organization considering the abundance of starting pitching the Braves had the following offseason. Wren's most viable options were to either sell high on Vazquez (who had a career year and got in the Cy Young conversation), or sell low on Lowe (who was nothing but mediocre and was signed for a lavish amount for the next three seasons). Wren abashed in the face of reason by not trying to sell high and repeatedly tried to sell low on Lowe. There were no takers. This left Wren to trade Vazquez to the Yankees for a bat, Melky Cabrera (he sucks), a LOOGY, a half million dollars, and a starting pitching prospect. This trade, on paper, didn't really make the Braves any better for 2010, again because Wren just had no cards to play during the negotiations. After the 2009 season was over, all Wren was really guilty of was acting rashly, not stupidly. Sure he could have signed Lowe cheaper, but Wren did almost everything right. By not selling the franchise's life savings for Peavy, not getting a bidding war with the Yankees, and by trading Vazquez for a couple of interesting parts instead of flipping Lowe for peanuts, his moves and non-moves payed off in 2010.
No one, especially not frank Wren, would foresee that 2010 would prove to make Executive Vice President Franklin E. Wren a genius. "Plan A", Jake Peavy, played hurt for a terrible San Diego team in 2009 and was traded (while hurt) to a contending White Sox team. Peavy did nothing for the White Sox in 2009 and did nothing noteworthy in 2010 due to midseason back surgery. "Plan B" won a World Series in 2009, and it certainly looked like Wren should have thrown that blank check Burnett's way to convince him to pitch in the NL again. But, Burnett a power pitcher, only had a passable 2.01 SO/BB ratio in 2009 all while walking a career high amount of batters. Let's not forget that the wheels came off for Burnett in 2010 (His ERA+ went from 114 to 81, ERA from 4.04 to 5.26, which added up a 10-15 record for a 95 win team in 2010). And finally, the trade that never was proved to be the most beneficial. After pitching 219 innings in 2009 for Atlanta, Vazquez went on to pitch just 157 for New York. Obviously, Javy was not the same pitcher in 2010 suffering a critical loss on his fastball and overall arm fatigue. His SO/BB plummeted from 5.41 to 1.86. For a power pitcher, it's all the making of a disaster.
Derek Lowe didn't quite silence his critics in 2010. In fact, he added a lot of fuel to the fire in the middle third of the season where he had a span of 11 starts where the Braves lost 9 of them. Lowe's change in mechanics due to ineffectively and decision to finally throw his slider more often had effectively changed his dynamics to become a strikeout threat as much as a ground ball machine. I'm sure him skipping a start and getting a cortisone shot late in the season didn't hurt either. I don't need to tell you that Derek Lowe was the deserved pitcher of the month --when the Braves absolutely needed him most in September of 2010. With mounting injuries to the starting pitching and everyday players alike, Lowe became an ace when Tim Hudson's surgically reconstructed elbow appeared to be in rapid decline. The Braves wouldn't have made it to the playoffs without Lowe in 2010, and his two playoff starts speak for themselves.(Despite the Braves losing each of his games, there was questionable calls and bad luck to overshadow his performance of an ERA of 2.31 and a WHIP of 1.03)
Despite the year that was 2009, Derek Lowe has outplayed Jake Peavy and A.J. Burnett over the past 2 years. Using Fangraph's WAR ratings, Jake Peavy combined WAR for 2009 and 2010 was 4.4 (hindered due to injury). A.J. Burnett combined WAR was 4.7 (hindered due to all-around ineffectiveness in 2010). Derek Lowe notched a combined 5.3 WAR while making about the same salary as Peavy or Burnett. The most substantial decision was the "no trade" of trying to flip Derek Lowe. By keeping Lowe on the staff in 2010 over Vazquez, it was a net gain of 2.9 wins by Fangraph standards (down to only 1.8 if you include Melky and Dunn). The sinker baller Lowe may lack these three pitchers in terms of SO/BB, but more than makes up for it with a vital 58.8% GB/FB ratio he logged in 2010. Despite rough patches in 2010, Lowe walked less batters, struck out more, and had a better GB/FB ratio than he did in 2009, all while finishing the season and postseason in his best form. By continuing the trends of September/October established by a change in mechanics and pitch selections, Atlanta should expect even more in the 2011 season from their $15 million dollar man. Frank Wren can take credit, even though any observer can tell he just got lucky that "Plan C" worked out.
For further proof of how luck can triumph over planned thinking see the 2010 San Francisco Giants starting lineup.
This FanPost does not express the views or opinions of Talking Chop.
141 comments
|
11 recs |
Do you like this story?
Comments
That blown strike call against the Giants hurt more than anything all year. Umps fucking suck.
"It looks like The Hound of the Baskervilles out there." - Steve Stone
"...I'm reminded of Wuthering Heights." - Harry Caray
~
Swing and a drive...Belted right! Welcome to the Show!!!
by Chief Noc-A-Homa on Feb 8, 2011 8:34 AM EST reply actions
That blownstrike“steal” callagainst the Giantsin favor of Posey hurt more than anything all year.
FTFY. That strike call is probably number 2 though.
"Life is a lot like a baseball game- you want your team to win, you want it to be a thriller, you don't want it to be called short on account of nature, and you wouldn't mind if it went into extra innings." -Dante Shepherd, survivingtheworld.net
FTFYFTFY
That blown strike "steal" call defensive play by Conradagainst the Giants in favor of Posey hurt more than anything all year.
This guy wants to suck all the cubs dick can he not have an unbias some what partition reguards
by RWH2 on Apr 5, 2010 10:20 AM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Feb 8, 2011 12:48 PM EST up reply actions
It’s true.
This guy wants to suck all the cubs dick can he not have an unbias some what partition reguards
by RWH2 on Apr 5, 2010 10:20 AM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Feb 8, 2011 4:42 PM EST up reply actions
It's

http://sportsandgrits.blogspot.com/
by Mr. Sanchez on Feb 8, 2011 4:50 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
This is new and I like it!
"That guy mvhsbball is really an insufferable schmuck." - FuquaManuel
by Scott Coleman on Feb 8, 2011 5:07 PM EST up reply actions
hahaha
"My parents do a lot of things behind the scenes that go unnoticed"- Cam Newton, Heisman acceptance speech.
by TurnerTheBurner on Feb 16, 2011 11:19 PM EST up reply actions
Let it go. I was super pissed at Conrad when it happened, but its
time to move on. Bringing it up in every post is getting old. It’s a new season.
Well, I figured in a post where someone is talking about why we lost against the Giants was an appropriate place…
This guy wants to suck all the cubs dick can he not have an unbias some what partition reguards
by RWH2 on Apr 5, 2010 10:20 AM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Feb 9, 2011 11:39 AM EST up reply actions
There's time, you remind me of an incident in high school...
we had tons of squirrels in our backyard. Two of my better friends used to like to come by, get happy, and snipe them with a pellet gun. On a day when one was probably a bit to “happy”, he thought he just nicked one, and went to finish it off with a large stick. Just kept banging away and banging away, as we laughed on my back porch.
Mr. Sanchez, pitying that poor horse—“Dude, I think you got it.”
Justin, as he raises the club again—“It’s still twitching!”
http://sportsandgrits.blogspot.com/
It was the way buddy said "It's still twitching" that caused the laughter...
and you never sniped squirrels?
http://sportsandgrits.blogspot.com/
by Mr. Sanchez on Feb 15, 2011 11:19 AM EST up reply actions
haha
I have no problem with sniping squirrels. It’s the repeatedly beating a dead one that’s just a little on the f’ed up scale
by Andy Braves Fan on Feb 15, 2011 12:40 PM EST up reply actions
He didn't want it to suffer....
and the intoxication sure didn’t help his judgment. Point is, justin reminds me of that, no matter how dead the horse is, he’s just wailin away, cause “it’s still twitching”.
http://sportsandgrits.blogspot.com/
Ok
I’m not trying to say that your friend is some sort of sicko, but just at first glance that’s a little messed up, or at least it could be construed that way.
by Andy Braves Fan on Feb 15, 2011 2:58 PM EST up reply actions
yeah, he was out by a mile
those calls always seem to screw us, really bad
"It looks like The Hound of the Baskervilles out there." - Steve Stone
"...I'm reminded of Wuthering Heights." - Harry Caray
~
Swing and a drive...Belted right! Welcome to the Show!!!
by Chief Noc-A-Homa on Feb 8, 2011 4:34 PM EST up reply actions
If anything at all
One of Derek Lowe’s best successes is simply doing what he’s always done. We mostly knew what we were getting in Lowe when he signed; a .570 groundball pitcher who’s good to always deliver 30 starts and close to 200 innings, and won’t really dazzle anyone. And although the ERA ticked up a little, and he’s fallen short of 200 innings in both years, he’s pretty much delivered typical Derek Lowe years.
The fact that Peavy has been an injury wreck, and Burnett falling off a cliff in 2010, in the span of the last two years has now made the Derek Lowe acquisition look a little less glaring, but I don’t know if the Braves could be called lucky. They overpaid for Lowe in order to secure him, and got almost exactly what they were hoping for. I’d say “lucky” would be signing Livan Hernandez to a minor-league deal, and then squeezing 211 innings out of him and getting a respectable 3.66 ERA in the process. The Padres/White Sox, and Yankees on the other hand were unlucky with Peavy and Burnett, because one got injured, and the other had a poor year; both negative deviations from what made them appealing in the first place.
No wonder nobody likes you, Tuttle... everything's a (Pujols) damn debate.
I agree, but
sometimes missing out on the “sensible choices” but still get out ahead makes you lucky by comparison. If I had a house that kept the same value for the last five years, I would consider myself pretty lucky. It doesn’t always have to be a lottery ticket like Livan Hernandez was in 2010.
That Heyward guy is pretty good.
by another simpsons avatar on Feb 8, 2011 11:32 AM EST up reply actions
Yes and No.
I don’t think you can call the White Sox/Padres and Yankees particularly unlucky. Peavy had injury concerns at the time, so being hurt was not that far removed from what was expected. Burnett, for all of his K’s, was never that great of a pitcher and had repeated injury issues. His 2009 season for the Yankees was easily within Burnett’s career norms, and given the park effects, probably one of his better seasons. 2010 was a disaster, but since given his track record, one should have expected him to be hurt in 2010, it can’t be considered that bad.
Oh, yeah, forgot the yes part...
…on the other hand, that doesn’t mean that the Braves got lucky—-just because Burnett got overpaid and the White Sox gave up too much money and players for Peavy does not mean it was a good idea for us to overpay Lowe. Yes, Lowe has been the best of the three, but we didn’t have to go with any of the three.
Can I just say
I posted all over the web that year how much I thought Jake Peavy was definitely an injury risk, and Burnett wouldn’t be consistent. I always thought that acquiring either was a huge mistake. Really, said it hundreds of times. I didn’t particularly like the Lowe deal, but it was definitely the least of the evils.
by Andy Braves Fan on Feb 9, 2011 2:26 PM EST up reply actions
There was also a "Plan D"
which was not giving 4/60 to a middle of the rotation starter, going with one of the numerous one year deal starters that were available at that time, and go at it with that signing (if not two for Lowe’s $15m price that year), + Vazquez, KK, JJ, and the rest of the candidates (Reyes, Glavine, Hanson, Medlen, etc). Then figure it out again the next season with a healthier Hudson, older Hanson, and still having Vazquez, KK, JJ, and others to round out a rotation.
The whole idea that “the front office had to make a splash/big move/whatever you wanna call it” is just foolish imo. You need to build the best team possible, and considering Vazquez and KK acquisitions, plus the young talent that was on the way up, signing one or two quality starters to 1 yr deals, instead of Lowe to 4/60, would have been much better use of the money and much better for the organization in both the short and long term. Change Lowe to say Jon Garland, Carl Pavano, or Randy Wolf, and you’re looking at a rotation of Vazquez, JJ, 1 of above 3, KK, and then Reyes/Medlen/Hanson as that played out, plus you have the money for Adam Dunn instead of settling on FUGA, which gives much better production in LF that year. Then Hudson comes back healthy, you let the 1 year deal walk (perhaps netting extra draft picks), keep Vazquez, and can slide Dunn to 1B for a year until Freeman is ready, forgoing the Glaus signing and targetting a LF last winter (probably Damon considering the money that would have been freed by not having Lowe’s $15m on the books).
http://sportsandgrits.blogspot.com/
Good logic
a couple points of contention:
1) I disagree with the LF we would have signed… Damon would have been interesting but as an aging OF, he’s better suited in the AL where he can DH when he’s not in the field… And we’d need a better CF to cover for his issues.
2) I also don’t 100% agree on Glaus not getting signed. Glaus the ballplayer and person was a great risk and worked out incredibly… for a little bit…
3) I think Dunn would have been a great addition… but what would it have cost us to get him from Washington?
4) I do wish we’d have not signed Lowe and gone w/ a 1 year deal… but the “intangibles” he brought to our BP and young staff… In the abscence of Hudson, we got steady production from one of our SPs for two years. Granted all the DLWs were frustrating… he was still able to coax out wins w/ moderately successful pitching…
Just a few comments.
by Klemson Krash on Feb 8, 2011 10:45 AM EST up reply actions
1. Fair enough, that was just a guess on my part considering our limited mutual interest last winter and very rosterbatory.
2. Again, fair enough. I agree Glaus was worth the risk and price, but see below.
3. Dunn would have been a free agent in this scenario and not with Washington. The scenario I’m playing out has us going with a 1 yr player for much cheaper than Lowe, and as Dunn was a free agent in that same class, we then have more money to offer him instead of going with FUGA later in the process, and he signs here instead of with the Nats. We have the 1 yr player, with Dunn in LF. Then last winter, slide Dunn to 1B, let the 1 yr player (Garland, Wolf, Pavano, etc) walk, and go sign a LF. We could leave Dunn in LF in this scenario and sign Glaus for 1B, but I’m thinking we feel similar to the Nats and for D purposes slide him to the infield and with the money $10-15m available by not having Lowe on the books go harder for a LF last winter, perhaps Bay or Holliday, or Damon. But this is all speculation and hindsight rosterbation.
4. I agree he has been a solid player for us, but I’m not seeing these “intangibles” that couldn’t have been gotten from elsewhere, and just feel differently on the subject of Lowe being “worth it” as I’ve said far too many times now.
http://sportsandgrits.blogspot.com/
Well....
1. Who knows who it would have been. If it was Damon, would we really have been better off overpaying him instead of overpaying Lowe?
2. Whatever meatball pitcher we signed instead of Lowe never would have netted us draft picks—-Adam Dunn in left would have made that pitcher’s numbers so bad that they wouldn’t reach even Class B.
3. Adam Dunn in left. And we thought FUGA was bad.
4. Even without Lowe on the books, with Dunn, we never could have come close to affording Holliday or even Bay.
5. Despite 1-4, I agree, we didn’t have to choose any of the options, and we would have been wiser not to overpay Lowe. I just don’t like your hypotheticals of what to do with the money saved.
1.
2.
3.
4.
5.
Lady: What?!? How did HE get to Heaven?
GOD: Oh, he was in a different area code, so technically it wasn't cheating..
by bwellnjonesco on Feb 8, 2011 2:08 PM EST up reply actions
FTFY
1.
2.
3.
4. get yo woman, on tha floor
5.
No wonder nobody likes you, Tuttle... everything's a (Pujols) damn debate.
Oh, wow….This might be the most clever coment ever!
This guy wants to suck all the cubs dick can he not have an unbias some what partition reguards
by RWH2 on Apr 5, 2010 10:20 AM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Feb 9, 2011 11:40 AM EST up reply actions
1. For one year, at a position of need (LF and leadoff bat) as opposed to 4 years at a position of excess, I’d say yes, it’d be better to overpay Damon for last season instead of Lowe for the last 2 plus the next 2.
2. Objection, you’re just being argumentative. For the record, Wolf was a type A that winter, Garland and Pavano type Bs.
3. Dunn wasn’t any less of an immoveable statue that FUGA was, so I don’t see a huge difference defensively. Both had a UZR in the negative double digits, and the range aspect according to fangraphs has both at an identical -10.4). Plus, while both are unbelievably bad in the field, Dunn was at least solid at the plate and would have been much more acceptable hitting 5th than FUGA. You’ve got a difference in the 3 slash stats of .267/.398/.529 for Dunn vs. .268/.303/.401 for FUGA. That’s 95 points in obp, and 128 in slugging. Dunn also has 1B experience, so instead of miring through Kotchman’s lack of power and moving for LaRoche, we could have moved Dunn there and let the hot hitting Diaz take over LF, improving both positions and making your defensive arguments irrelevant.
4. Fair enough, but we wouldn’t have needed their bats either with a slugger like Dunn in the heart of the order. Which is why I said we signed Damon that winter, to fill LF and leadoff. We could have certainly afforded him.
http://sportsandgrits.blogspot.com/
1. Yes, Damon may have been a better signing than Lowe, but remember, Damon wasn’t good in 2010, and he would not have replaced the mess in left field; Diaz was going to start and Melky was going to get playing time; they would have just moved to right and kept Heyward in AAA. That would not have been an improvement.
2. Yes, I am just being argumentative. But, there being nothing wrong with that, objection overruled.
3. Not all double digit negative UZR’s are the same. Yes, FUGA was bad. But Adam Dunn was a totally separate, worst fielding OF season of all time bad. Yes, they both posted -10.4 Range UZR’s, but that is not a UZR/150 number, that is an overall number. And it took FUGA 1026.1 Innings in the outfield to produce it, while it only took Dunn 685 innings in the outfield to produce it. (And then Dunn got moved to first, where he also seriously sucked.) Overall, FUGA produced a rotten -15.7 UZR/150 in the outfield, but Dunn produced an insanely bad, probably will never be topped record of fielding futility with a -38.9 UZR/150 in the outfield. Yeah, at first you don’t think anyone could be more than twice as bad as FUGA in the OF in 2009, but if you then watch Dunn in the OF, you understand. The hitting, of course, is a major difference, because FUGA couldn’t hit either. And overall, obviously, Dunn is an upgrade. But really, there had to be a better option than either for an outfield slot.
4. Again, I don’t think Damon would have helped. Once he was removed from the bandbox in New York, he showed last year that age has caught up to him. His OBP was still solid, but again he would have been replacing Heyward for part of the season, not the vortex of suck that was Diaz/Melky. And wow, with Damon in left and McLouth in center, it would have been an interesting comparison of arms—-McLouth refusing to throw the ball, and Damon who just appears not to be throwing it when he actually does throw it. Add in fourth OF Melky throwing the ball sideways and backwards, and well, at least it would have been funny. Maybe they could have run the ball in on every hit, relay style.
I like your idea on #4, treat the ball like a baton
and #3, I fixed the OF by putting Dunn at 1B and leaving Diaz in LF, say around June or July once Diaz showed he was fully recovered and playing great, Kotchman proved he couldn’t outhit Vazquez, and Dunn proved his days in the OF were over.
And I said the LF option is speculative in 2010, any number of options could have been had there not named Damon.
http://sportsandgrits.blogspot.com/
Moving Dunn to First...
…is obviously the first idea. As for Damon, I would have been leery of any signing for left field before 2010, because none of them would have been as good as the guy they would have essentially replace (at least for a while until Diaz/Melky fell on their faces): Heyward. Now, if you want to add more adjustment and have us just not deal with Diaz/Melky at all, that would make the signing help the team, but with just the signing, we likely would have started Heyward in AAA.
But there is no Melky...
recall, in the beginning scenario, we don’t sign Lowe or FUGA, but sign Dunn and Wolf/Pavano/Garland instead. Dunn is a two year deal, so you have to fit him into the lineup, and I think he’d fit very well with openings in LF (obviously, he stinks there) and 1B (where he’d be less of a liability and we also had a need). But it eliminates Melky because we don’t need to dump Vazquez that following winter without Lowe clogging up the books. We have a rotation of Hudson, Hanson, Vazquez, JJ, and then Kawakami/Medlen, with Javy filling Lowe’s spot and the trade for Melky/Vizcaino/Dunn never doing down. Removing Cabrera from the mix changes what we look for in the OF to go alongside Diaz and McLouth, as I assume Heyward in RF from opening day on was a lock (we don’t seem to play the service clock game, as shown with him and with Freeman).
http://sportsandgrits.blogspot.com/
And to be honest, the Dunn part is also unverified rosterbation...
go for Garland/Wolf/Pavano on a 1 yr $5-8m deal instead of Lowe for 4/60, and who knows what we’d do with the other money as far as addressing the LF/CF need (as we didn’t know until spring that Schafer would take the spot, and with extra cash to spend, might not go into that spring with Anderson and Blanco as his competition for the job). But I do like the idea of entering 2009 with a rotation of Vazquez, JJ, 1 of the above 3, then KK before giving way to Hudson, and Reyes/Medlen/Hanson as the 4 and 5 spots ultimately played out that year. Then in 2010, you go with a healthy Hudson, followed by Vazquez, Hanson, JJ, and KK/Medlen battling it out for the 5th spot as ultimately played out that year. Make that underlying change in the 2008/9 offseason replacing the Lowe deal with one for the above mentioned 3, and who knows what ramifications that has on other moves, let alone the Vazquez/Logan for Cabrera/Dunn/Vizcaino deal, and then the Dunn/Infante for Uggla deal.
http://sportsandgrits.blogspot.com/
A better option than Dunn
Would have actually been getting in on making a deal for Nick Swisher from the White Sox.
They sent him to the Yankees for a mediocre return, we probably could have moved on him as in addition to dealing for Vazquez, if we hadn’t been sitting around waiting for something to happen with Peavy.
Q: If not us, who? If not now, when? A: The Batman. And "when you least expect it."
It call comes down to his slider use. When Lowe has been his best throughout his career he has thrown his slider more frequently along with his sinker. The more use the slider gets, as long as he doesn’t take away from the sinker, the more successful he has been and likely will be going forward.
Twitter: @Ben_Duronio Stop calling Tommy Hanson "Big Red" -- This is the cause I support the most.
There have been times during his career where he has had to alter it, but it’s nowhere near entirely dependent on that. The tail-end of last year showed how effective of a pitch it could be, and if you look at his great season in L.A. when he earned hus current contract you will see that he used his slider and sinker often and effectively.
Twitter: @Ben_Duronio Stop calling Tommy Hanson "Big Red" -- This is the cause I support the most.
The last few starts he had last season were beautiful. He looked unhittable. If he can keep up with the rediscovered slider, then I very much like our chances against the Phils..
Lady: What?!? How did HE get to Heaven?
GOD: Oh, he was in a different area code, so technically it wasn't cheating..
by bwellnjonesco on Feb 8, 2011 1:17 PM EST up reply actions
When you look at 2009
He was very well worth the money for the first half of the season. In fact, it wasn’t until a start in the middle of the season against the Mets when he gave up 8 runs when the wheels started to fall off. I’d very much like to know what his stat line was prior to that game. I’ve searched every where and I cant find 2009 start by start stats. If anyone would care to do that for me, then I’ve got a milkshake with their name on it.
by thenightstallion on Feb 8, 2011 2:15 PM EST reply actions
Well, before his June 20th start against the Orioles, he had a 3.44 ERA. His WHIP in April was 1.24 and in May it was 1.18. His first two starts in June he pitched 14 innings, allowing 5 runs, striking out 8 and walking 3. In that start against Baltimore he went 2.1 innings and allowed 7 runs. That’s when the wheels started to fall off. That Mets start you mentioned didn’t come until August.
You can see his game log on a number of sites by the way. I mostly use yahoo for that.
Perhaps my memory fails me...
Thanks for those stats. Chocolate or Vanilla?
by thenightstallion on Feb 8, 2011 5:32 PM EST up reply actions
Solid post.
We probably shouldn’t have gone after any of the three, but Lowe has been the best choice among the three. Our pitching staff this year could be crazy if he’s able to repeat what he did in September.
Rec’d.
"That guy mvhsbball is really an insufferable schmuck." - FuquaManuel
You can’t underestimate the value of a league average pitcher that has never been on the DL. The Braves were the last team in the NL to be eliminated from a playoff birth in 2009 and won the WC in 2010. Neither of those happen without Lowe.
That Heyward guy is pretty good.
by another simpsons avatar on Feb 8, 2011 7:11 PM EST up reply actions
The Braves were the last team in the NL to be eliminated from a playoff birth in 2009 and won the WC in 2010. Neither of those happen without Lowe.
Thanks! I had no idea.
"That guy mvhsbball is really an insufferable schmuck." - FuquaManuel
by Scott Coleman on Feb 8, 2011 7:37 PM EST up reply actions
Neither of those happen without Lowe.
That is impossible to prove one way or the other and completely a guess on your part. And imo, replace Lowe and FUGA with Dunn and one of Pavano/Wolf/Garland, and we make the playoffs in 09, then replace Pavano/Wolf/Garland with a quality OF in ’10, and we might win the East.
http://sportsandgrits.blogspot.com/
If only someone like CC Sabathia had been available, then we could have signed him instead of Lowikami …
Q: If not us, who? If not now, when? A: The Batman. And "when you least expect it."
CC was available....IIRC
but there was no way we were getting him
I can think of...
…more than 100 million reasons.
The annual salaries of Lowe and Kawakami combine to be around $23 MM, Sabathia signed for a $23 MM annual salary. He was certainly an option, and, IMO, would have been a better choice than spending on both Lowe and Kawakami for reasons that go beyond just on the field performance.
Q: If not us, who? If not now, when? A: The Batman. And "when you least expect it."
If we'd have bid $23
the Yanks would’ve bid $24. They were getting CC.
'There are two pains in life. There is the pain of discipline and the pain of disappointment. If you can handle the pain of discipline, then you'll never have to deal with the pain of disappointment,'- Nick Saban
We’ll never know, because we didn’t even bother to try.
Sabathia was making a ton of noise about wanting to stay in the NL early in that offseason, but it was generally agreed that no other team made him an offer that was even close to the Yankees deal.
And they’d only know how much we offered Sabathia if he and/or his agent went and told them directly, and a lot of agents prefer to keep the exact figures of other teams offers a secret. (See Boras, Scott and his mystery teams).
Even if they do, there are other considerations (not the least of which being cost of living differences between ATL and NYC) that could have a player choosing Atlanta over New York if there are two very close offers on the table.
If you’re willing to spend $23 MM a year on improving your starting pitching, then, IMO, you have to at least test the waters on a legitimate ace type pitcher like Sabathia first.
Q: If not us, who? If not now, when? A: The Batman. And "when you least expect it."
He's also making that $23MM
for another five years, through age 34. The Yankees can afford to take the risk of a guy that expensive getting hurt since they could afford a replacement. The Braves couldn’t. KK’s money comes off after this year, Lowe after next. Big, big difference from the most expensive pitcher contract EVER.
'There are two pains in life. There is the pain of discipline and the pain of disappointment. If you can handle the pain of discipline, then you'll never have to deal with the pain of disappointment,'- Nick Saban
Instead of signing a pitcher in his prime for 7 years, we went straight to two pitchers already in their decline phases for 4 and 3 years respectively. One of whom we decided wasn’t even good enough to pitch out of our bullpen.
Q: If not us, who? If not now, when? A: The Batman. And "when you least expect it."
Teams forced to live on a budget
don’t commit $23MM per for seven years to pitchers. Period. See: Mike Hampton/
'There are two pains in life. There is the pain of discipline and the pain of disappointment. If you can handle the pain of discipline, then you'll never have to deal with the pain of disappointment,'- Nick Saban
The Braves are hardly the Pirates, we can afford a few big contracts, the important thing is investing in the right ones. I think Sabathia for ages 28-34 was as solid of an investment in a FA “ace” pitcher as you’d be likely to find on the FA market.
Heck, ignoring KK for a moment, we invested $60 MM over 4 years in a 35 year old Derek Lowe. When Sabathia’s contract ends, he’ll be the same age as the guy we signed 2 years ago.
Q: If not us, who? If not now, when? A: The Batman. And "when you least expect it."
But you don't spend seven years on pitchers.
They just get hurt way too frequently. Look at Huddy. Picture of health his whole career, then TJ surgery in his age 32 season. What if he had been making $23 mil in 2009? Only the huge market teams can afford to risk it..
'There are two pains in life. There is the pain of discipline and the pain of disappointment. If you can handle the pain of discipline, then you'll never have to deal with the pain of disappointment,'- Nick Saban
You don’t spend 4yrs/$60 MM on a 35 year old pitcher either, but here we are.
Q: If not us, who? If not now, when? A: The Batman. And "when you least expect it."
Don't disagree
but even then I think four is better than seven. If only older pitchers got hurt I’d feel otherwise but in an era with Kris Medlen and Stephen Strasburg having TJ surgery you just can’t commit that many years,
'There are two pains in life. There is the pain of discipline and the pain of disappointment. If you can handle the pain of discipline, then you'll never have to deal with the pain of disappointment,'- Nick Saban
I'd have felt the same with CC...
especially after the huge load the Brewers laid on him right before that deal. But he seems different. Maybe he goes down this year, or soon, but damn if he doesn’t seem capable of throwing 300 innings a year for the next decade.
http://sportsandgrits.blogspot.com/
Seems is the key word.
Again, I submit one Tim Hudson.
'There are two pains in life. There is the pain of discipline and the pain of disappointment. If you can handle the pain of discipline, then you'll never have to deal with the pain of disappointment,'- Nick Saban
Elaboration (long and rambling, warning)
Okay, so let’s look at Hudson. He’s a guy who was healthy and then needed arm surgery, yeah?
Then what happened? He did his rehab and came back and had a great season.
The fact that we signed him for 4 years instead of 7 didn’t save us from his injury, because a pitcher can get hurt at any time. (Granted, he decided to give a hometown discount on his new contract, which has been a big boon, but that’s a separate issue).
He can get hurt next year, he can get hurt 6 years from now, he might never suffer a major arm injury in his career. That’s part of modern baseball.
Thanks to modern medicine, however, a pitcher who blows out his arm misses a year, then comes back and pitches like he did before his injury, if not better.
Because of this, I don’t think you can concern yourself with the possibility that an otherwise healthy pitcher might suddenly hurt his arm, because that can happen to any pitcher you sign to any length contract.
The issue is all about which years you’re signing a pitcher to big money for. If you’re offering a 7 year deal and 4-5 of those years are “prime” seasons, then it’s a better signing IMO than 4 years that are all expected to be decline years.
And that’s the other reality of modern baseball, to lock in a proven top 10 pitcher you have to be willing to give them a long contract for big money.
And, IMO, the impact that signing or acquiring a legitimate super star player can have on the fans perception of the team and their dedication to fielding a winner shouldn’t just be ignored. Signing a CC Sabathia type of player Vs a Lowe + KK is going to sell more seasons tickets and do more to energize the fanbase.
Now, this isn’t to say that you should give out multiple big money contracts, but a single big money/years deal is not something that a team with a solid mid-market budget should just reject as a possibility out of hand, if the right player is sitting out there for the taking.
Q: If not us, who? If not now, when? A: The Batman. And "when you least expect it."
I agree with all you said...
with the caveat that all injuries are not created equal. Having Tommy John surgery rather than rotator cuff or (God forbid) labrum surgery is almost a saving grace.
Having been on the side of a rotator cuff tear that could never be fixed, even through multiple surgeries, I can tell you that a 7-year deal isn’t necessarily risky because of Tommy John’s, but because of the other possible arm-related injuries that exist.
It’s been more than half my life since my surgeries, and these things do heal (though not totally, in my case) over time. But if I go out and toss the baseball with a conventional throwing motion today, I’ll be able to feel it tear again while throwing and I wouldn’t be able to toss the ball around tomorrow.
-C
It’s rough to sit through these games and not have someone that can’t hit a Ball?
Plus
not everyone makes it back seamlessly from TJ. Again, I submit Mike Hampton.
'There are two pains in life. There is the pain of discipline and the pain of disappointment. If you can handle the pain of discipline, then you'll never have to deal with the pain of disappointment,'- Nick Saban
Mike Hampton is Mike Hampton, he’s made of glass and pulled three muscles just getting out of bed in the morning.. If you use him as an example no pitcher should ever be signed to anything other than a 1 year incentive based deal.
Greg Maddux went on the DL once in his entire career.
Q: If not us, who? If not now, when? A: The Batman. And "when you least expect it."
He also averaged 219 innings from his age 24 to 28 seasons. No indication that he was going to break down when Colorado gave him that big deal.
'There are two pains in life. There is the pain of discipline and the pain of disappointment. If you can handle the pain of discipline, then you'll never have to deal with the pain of disappointment,'- Nick Saban
I don't think anyone would disagree
that it would be nice to have CC now and that injuries happen, and that guys often can come back, especially from TJ surgery. The problem is knowing which ones. For every Greg Maddux and Tom Glavine, there is a Mark Prior and a Mike Hampton. Hindsight is 20/20, but huge deals like CC’s are extremely risky, and more risky than a team like the Braves can handle.
by Andy Braves Fan on Feb 15, 2011 10:37 AM EST up reply actions
Then what happened? He did his rehab and came back and had a great season.
This isn’t always the case.
that can happen to any pitcher you sign to any length contract.
True, but if they don’t make it back you aren’t on the hook for as long.
Tom Singer at MLB.com makes this point much more eloquently than I ever could. Only eight pitchers in MLB history have been given seven years. Money quote from the linked article:
Never mind performance. Only two of the eight starting pitchers signed to deals of at least seven years were physically able to pitch out their contracts (two others, the Giants’ Barry Zito and the Yankees’ CC Sabathia, are in the midst of their pacts).
There you have it.
'There are two pains in life. There is the pain of discipline and the pain of disappointment. If you can handle the pain of discipline, then you'll never have to deal with the pain of disappointment,'- Nick Saban
Three signings before 1985. One 34 year old Brown. One Mike Hampton. Two guys still in the midst of their deals.
That’s not exactly a huge sample size to use to say anything definitive.
Q: If not us, who? If not now, when? A: The Batman. And "when you least expect it."
This is one time
when sample sizes don’t apply. The sample size is so small because the guys making the decisions know that it’s awful policy to guarantee seven years to pitchers. Did you notice the innings dropoff after year 3? It was across the board.
'There are two pains in life. There is the pain of discipline and the pain of disappointment. If you can handle the pain of discipline, then you'll never have to deal with the pain of disappointment,'- Nick Saban
You’re not looking at this the right way. Two pitchers are greater than one.
The difference between the best pitchers in the league and the Derek Lowe’s of the league are not great enough to make those great pitchers, by themselves, more valuable than Derek Lowe PLUS Kenshin Kawakami. That is, of course, assuming that Lowe and Kawakami pitch to their capabilities and remain healthy.
Errrr No
Sabathia had produced 11.4 WAR over the last two seasons, Lowe has produced a WAR of 5.3. Sabathia has been more than twice as valuable as Lowe.
Q: If not us, who? If not now, when? A: The Batman. And "when you least expect it."
Errrr try again
Kawakami has produced 2.5 WAR over the past two seasons, and that’s with him losing his job to Hudson late in ’09 and again half way through last year, meaning that it should actually be higher.
Sabathia hasn’t been more than twice as valuable as Lowe and Kawakami, so your argument doesn’t hold up. Nice try.
Yeah, it doesn’t have to be twice as much as Lowe and Kawakami, just more than Lowe and Kawakami, which it is. So I look like an idiot.
I still disagree with you, but I feel like I’ve lost the privilege to argue my case after I was all snarky and what I said didn’t even make sense.
I didn’t see this before I responded to your other post.
Your supposition, that two pitchers are greater than one? Though, well, quite frankly, that depends on the pitchers in question and the team.
I’m one of those that thinks that KK has been handled poorly by this team, and is much better than many think, still, the fact of the matter is that he’s a guy we don’t even really need with the young pitching that is in our system. His contract is, practically, a waste of resources at this point. Lowe is solid enough, but has, to this point, pitched below the value of his contract.
???/Hudson/Hanson/JJ/Minor
Replace the ??? with either Derek Lowe on CC Sabathia, which is the better pitching rotation?
Overall, I think our team would have been better off not investing in Sabathia or Lowikami, but, instead of spending all $23 MM per on pitching, spending some of it on a Dunn or Swisher type hitter to improve out OF/offense.
I’m just saying that once you are spending all that money on pitching, I think that going after CC Sabathia is a better choice than any other the other pitching options that were out there.
Q: If not us, who? If not now, when? A: The Batman. And "when you least expect it."
2.5 + 5.3 = 7.7
11.4 > 7.7
Sabathia > Lowe + Kawakami
In fact, going by the Fangraphs values, CC has been worth about $16 MM more than Lowe and KK combined over the last two years.
Also, That Kawakami has been deemed not good enough to pitch on our team, and lost his spot on the roster is hardly a point in favor of the value of signing him and Lowe instead of going after Sabathia.
Q: If not us, who? If not now, when? A: The Batman. And "when you least expect it."
We’ll never know, because we didn’t even bother to try.
True. We didn’t bother trying because the Yanks were going to outbid us and it would have been a waste of time.
Right, that same logic is why we didn’t attempt to sign AJ Burnett that same offseason.
Q: If not us, who? If not now, when? A: The Batman. And "when you least expect it."
That’s his point.
This guy wants to suck all the cubs dick can he not have an unbias some what partition reguards
by RWH2 on Apr 5, 2010 10:20 AM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Feb 11, 2011 3:44 PM EST up reply actions
no
If you’re willing to spend $23 MM a year on improving your starting pitching, then, IMO, you have to at least test the waters on a legitimate ace type pitcher like Sabathia first.
We’ll never know, because we didn’t even bother to try.
Whooosh.
This guy wants to suck all the cubs dick can he not have an unbias some what partition reguards
by RWH2 on Apr 5, 2010 10:20 AM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Feb 12, 2011 10:19 AM EST up reply actions
Let the Love fest continue?
Uhhh I can not find it in my heart to “LOVE” FW that much….I know a couple of times last year I proclaimed to pull him out from under the bus but if he was soooo good why was he there to start with….
Most of what happened good for us last year, Winning 90+ and making it to the play-offs can be summed up in two points or factors
1. Bobby’s last year
2. Luck
We had our share of bad luck….with three of our starters going down…but I believe mistakes made by the GM had a hand in it…..
1. Buying cheap (breakable) players because he overpaid for a pitcher
2. Not providing enough quality back-up for a known possible injury prone player (see above #1 for reason)
3. Not seeing (and being prepared) that there might be future injuries because of age of the players he was bringing in but of his 3rd baseman too.
Maybe I got too spoiled during our 14 year run but I am not ready to march through the streets shouting Frank is King…..for get it! Let us just hope that our product on the field next year gets us 90 wins again then IF we do then I might pull Frank out and let him sit next to the bus on the curb….oh no! don’t kick him to it !
""People ask me what I do in winter when there’s no baseball. I’ll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring." Rogers Hornsby
Of course Wren hasn’t been perfect, but your post has a total lack of specificity and reason. Luck was the reason the Braves won 90 games? Give me a break dude. Do you always choose not to support your radical opinions with any sort of facts. Check this out and tell me how lucky the Braves were last year.
Next time use specific examples of how Wren bought cheap (breakable) players, didn’t provide adequate depth on our roster and was not prepared for the injuries that could have been predicted. You sound like you don’t know what you’re talking about.Coming into last season the four biggest question marks in terms of health that were not named Chipper Jones were Tim Hudson, Billy Wagner, Takashi Saito and Troy Glaus. Wren was right about Hudson, Wagner and Saito (though he did spend a bit of time on the DL). Glaus provided excellent production at the beginning of the Braves’ run last season, and when it was time to replace him Frank Wren went out and got Derek Lee, who helped the Braves get into the playoffs.
Last year wasn’t supposed to be a World Series year for the Braves. Of course it would have been cool for them to do it for Bobby, but that team was full of stop gaps. Glaus, Wagner, Saito, Lowe, Kawakami…. These guys are/were all keeping their positions warm for the prospects in our system. The Braves are built for 2013 and beyond, which is why it’s pretty impressive that they’re actually one of the best teams in the league right now.
I am part of the Anti-stat crowd...but since you asked....
Yes, I like stats. I read them and can crunch them in my head w’o writing them down….so to support my statement about “Luck” and Bobby Cox’s last year…why not I give you some facts and you make stats of them????
How do you explain over 20+ come from behind wins…good bench.??..yeah maybe half that number could be.
You can not tell me that the Team as a whole were not giving that extra effort for Bobby when in ALL the interviews (or so it seemed) everyone brought that up. Ok, maybe 1 or two didn’t…sorry KK duck while the bus is backing up?…
and your statement
Coming into last season the four biggest question marks in terms of health that were not named Chipper Jones were Tim Hudson, Billy Wagner, Takashi Saito and Troy Glaus. Wren was right about Hudson, Wagner and Saito (though he did spend a bit of time on the DL).
Uh…name the only one that Didn’t brake down during the season (to include postseason)…tick tock tick tock…..all of those did except Huddy
Hudson was a minimum risk because he had actually pitched a few games at the close of the previous season
Chipper is my second favorite on the Team…behind heap but If he wanted to pull a Dale Murphy…One of my all time favs and asked to be traded to an AL Team I would not mind at all….at least then I did not have to panic the next time he made a diving catch or a run and throw to first let alone seeing him swing hard and tare a lat muscle…or fowl a ball off of some appendage…can I get an amen?
""People ask me what I do in winter when there’s no baseball. I’ll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring." Rogers Hornsby
You seriously use the fact that we had 20+ come-from-behind wins last year to support your claim that Frank Wren does not deserve credit for our playoff berth, because the only reason it happened was because it was Bobby’s last year.
It’s obviously a waste of time for me to try to discuss baseball with you.
How do you explain over 20+ come from behind wins…good bench.??..yeah maybe half that number could be.
- Starting pitching keeping you in nearly every game and giving you a chance to win
- A top bull-pen shutting down the opposing offenses late in the game
- The best bench in baseball coming through in late-and-close situations
- A lights-out set-up man and closer shutting the door on any chance the opponent may have had
It’s pretty simple to explain 20 come from behind wins – and all of those explanations have 1 common denominator – they were all put together by 1 man – Frank Wren.
This guy wants to suck all the cubs dick can he not have an unbias some what partition reguards
by RWH2 on Apr 5, 2010 10:20 AM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Feb 9, 2011 10:17 PM EST up reply actions
Nice way to explain Luck?
Where opportunity and ability intersec…..and your number #1 Man Frank W ..bought Old so, we did not go deep into the playoffs…..we went home tooo early!!!!!
Lowe “finally” figures out he was pitch mechanics were off? ( two years it took him)" marks…..
-Bull pen helped by two farm clubers…Frank runs the farm’s player development?
-Conrad’s late inning blast…bounces off other team’s OF glove for HR
-Wag and Saito even lasted that long uhhhh can you say Luck?
oh yeah…SAME for the rest of your "
OBTW …..I had a feeling Justin that any Jab at Stats would have you crawling our form your rock to comment…..nice points though but helped me make my case
""People ask me what I do in winter when there’s no baseball. I’ll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring." Rogers Hornsby
by bravestatoo on Feb 12, 2011 11:33 PM EST up reply actions
dislexia is hell bad spelling is just plain stupid..."our form" /out from
""People ask me what I do in winter when there’s no baseball. I’ll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring." Rogers Hornsby
by bravestatoo on Feb 12, 2011 11:35 PM EST up reply actions
I have no idea what you are attempting to communicate here….
This guy wants to suck all the cubs dick can he not have an unbias some what partition reguards
by RWH2 on Apr 5, 2010 10:20 AM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Feb 13, 2011 10:22 AM EST up reply actions
Chipper is my second favorite on the Team…behind heap but If he wanted to pull a Dale Murphy…One of my all time favs and asked to be traded to an AL Team I would not mind at all….at least then I did not have to panic the next time he made a diving catch or a run and throw to first let alone seeing him swing hard and tare a lat muscle…or fowl a ball off of some appendage…can I get an amen?
If you can find a 3B to replace Chipper that will give you 15-20 HRs, a .280 average with gap power and an OBP that threatens to lead the league at about .390 or so, they I wouldn’t mind letting Chipper go either…
This guy wants to suck all the cubs dick can he not have an unbias some what partition reguards
by RWH2 on Apr 5, 2010 10:20 AM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Feb 9, 2011 10:20 PM EST up reply actions
I am part of the Anti-stat crowd…
Hmmm….
"That guy mvhsbball is really an insufferable schmuck." - FuquaManuel
by Scott Coleman on Feb 10, 2011 2:42 AM EST up reply actions
That was my thought
It pains me to read such statements, I mean after all stats are essentially evidence. Evidence: Evidence in its broadest sense includes everything that is used to determine or demonstrate the truth of an assertion. ..
So by saying “I am anti-stat” is the same thing as saying stops signs are not red, the Wilpons know what they are doing and OJ is actually innocent ….
/facepalm
I met you in Greenbille with my little kid
Just like him…you might have only read the first few words?
Yes, I like stats
""People ask me what I do in winter when there’s no baseball. I’ll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring." Rogers Hornsby
by bravestatoo on Feb 12, 2011 11:38 PM EST up reply actions
"Greenville"....see above for mis-spelling reference....
""People ask me what I do in winter when there’s no baseball. I’ll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring." Rogers Hornsby
by bravestatoo on Feb 12, 2011 11:39 PM EST up reply actions
Most of what made the team good had very little to do with Bobby Cox being in his final season. Also, the Braves certainly had more bad luck than good luck, when you see what happened with injuries at first, second, third base, and the poor performance of everyone who played center and the lefty-mashing left fielder. Wren is terrific.
Twitter: @Ben_Duronio Stop calling Tommy Hanson "Big Red" -- This is the cause I support the most.
2. Not providing enough quality back-up for a known possible injury prone player
Are you sure? Because I remember the Braves having an awesome bench. The bench won a number of games and even had an All-Star in Omar Infante. I think Wren did an excellent job of constructing the team last year, considering the limited budget.
Exactly.
Asking for more bench from the Braves last year is asking for the impossible. We knew Chipper was fragile, and we had a very good bench replacement in Infante. Glaus was breakable, too, and we had Hinske for short-term fill-in and we got Lee for long-term. The injury that killed us was Prado. That was one injury too many, and nobody has that much depth. We certainly could afford that much depth.
ohhh and who was Omar actually there to back up?
Was it for Chipper…or maybe one of the Out fielders? ..Surely not Praddo.??..he was young….how could he get hurt??..the problem was he was the “Main” back up….and the rest were just “Plug” ins who played above and beyond for Bobby..(which was not a glaring problem until Conrad’s unfortunate miscues). This “Playing up” is common among Bobby’s bench players and “retread” starters….
Say, let me name just a small few from the past….lets choose a year.. 99?
(STAND BY FOR STAT ALERT….I SAY AGAIN,,,,,STAND BY FOR STAT ALERT)
We lost to the Yanks in the World Series but with these “Bench” and retread players we took out a better Houston team to get into the WS
1. Walt Weiss (.286 in playoffs maybe a .226 during the year?)
2. Brian Hunter -he joins the Braves, .249 for the year. The year before he hits near the Mendoza line (and somebody thought I didn’t know about Baseball?) and the year after he left? He went back to Mendoza. (almost 50 points bump….c’omon!!!!!)
3. Gerald Williams (his number were up over 50points (AND more than 200 for his OPS) from his previous few years. His line was .305/352/504/856
4. Bret Boone (scores 102 runs that year, most runs up to that time 76….reference this because of the interesting article in “ESPN the Mag” about Speed..featuring Nyjer Morgan vs Franklin Gutierrez…….Ok so you read the article and you’re thinking Bret was caught stealing 9 times how does this apply?….His attempts of 25 more than doubled any of his previous years….uhhh Why do you think Bobby was sending him? He knew his base running knowledge would get him accross the plate more times..(plus it is said that his defense anchored the infield……really? wasn’t he just an average infielder)
I do not want you to think that I do not believe in Stats to make a point but I do consider them when I post and do not injoy getting beat up for having a difference of opinion…oh how juvinile…tisk tisk…..if you are polite and ask for a stat then I might give a few but to those that make statements like;
but your post has a total lack of specificity and reason. Luck was the reason the Braves won 90 games? Give me a break dude. Do you always choose not to support your radical opinions with any sort of facts
radical or not….anybody with just half a brain would know that my first post had spoken the truth
-We were lucky
-and the players “played” up for Bobby
-And I can surely tell that there is a Love fest for Frank Wren at this site that I ain’t buying just yet!!!!!! Wasn’t he in charge of the team from 06-10…five years of no post season play and a couple of those were losing seasons…(uh I didn’t check that if just felt like we did..hee hee)
""People ask me what I do in winter when there’s no baseball. I’ll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring." Rogers Hornsby
Offbeat opinions and wild language to convey them are a combination begging for strong rebuttal.
1. Your point about 1999 is meaningless. Since teams will never have benches full of all-stars (because those guys would be starting elsewhere), teams that win usually have better than normal performances from some bench players. Look at the Giants last year; they had a whole bunch of retreads and has-beens and never weres have big seasons or huge bounceback seasons: Andres Torres, Aubrey Huff, Juan Uribe, Pat Burrell.
2. Hate Frank Wren or love Frank Wren, you cannot fairly criticize him for not getting tons of great players for the bench. Our payroll could never accomodate it. Outside of maybe the Yankees, nobody’s can. That’s just reality.
3. Plug ins are part of baseball when people get hurt. Period. The Phillies had a complete non-entity (whose name I cannot even remember) playing short while Rollins was hurt for a long time last year. It happens.
You missed the point.....
1. I just picked a random year….to prove that player pay “up” for Bobby Cox as opposed to other coaches….Do you agree or disagree…..or do you need me to find another year to prove my point.
2.I do not love green eggs and hamsorry was trying to type this and read to my kid at the same time….but I do not “love” Frank Wren untill either a run of post season appearances or a World Series ring is won. Pref several of both? If Money is going to be brought up and how it is a problem why shell out 16 + 6 mil on lower quality? Seems like that might have been a better time to save?
3. Hmmmm the Giants had injuries …maybe they just “plugged” better or were not shackled by (see #2)
PS….about offbeat…opinions…if this is not a place to express them can you kindly point me in the right direction? Though, I do not think my opinions are as far as off beat as you might suggest as you will check out my guess for wins last season…I had us down for 87 but thought we could make it to 90 because it was BOBBY’s LAST YEAR!
""People ask me what I do in winter when there’s no baseball. I’ll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring." Rogers Hornsby
by bravestatoo on Feb 14, 2011 10:37 PM EST up reply actions
Time for new Key board...this one is ssssstiiiiickkkking
Should have read……"To prove that players play UP for Bobby…….
""People ask me what I do in winter when there’s no baseball. I’ll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring." Rogers Hornsby
by bravestatoo on Feb 14, 2011 10:39 PM EST up reply actions
By any objective standard, Wren’s decision-making has very good.
Mistakes do, of course, come with the territory, but if you’re suggesting TC is cheerleading and gushing love all over FW, that is completely wrong and uninformed.
The author of this post might disagree?
No one, especially not frank Wren, would foresee that 2010 would prove to make Executive Vice President Franklin E. Wren a genius.
oh, and maybe 5 replys to my lightly bashing him might attest to a certain worship going on?…not saying I hate him…I after all said I had pulled him out from under the bus and put him on the curb and warned other not to kick him there
also…….I have stepped up and said I could do his job for a day….and recognized I probably would be over my head for anymore than that….but it would be sweet to have his seat adjacent to the press box…right?
""People ask me what I do in winter when there’s no baseball. I’ll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring." Rogers Hornsby
"others"
""People ask me what I do in winter when there’s no baseball. I’ll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring." Rogers Hornsby
Why does it have to be that you love him or hate him?
So far, Wren has done an admirable job, and the proof of that is an October appearance in 2010. Had the Braves held up health-wise it could very easily have been an NL East Championship and a deep playoff run.
The guy should get a pat on the back from the fans for building a good team on a tight budget. So far most or all of his moves have seemed sensible and well thought-out. That includes some controversial moves like the Javy Vazquez trade.
If he makes a bad move or one I disagree with, I voice my opinion (see the Yunel trade), but overall he has done well. It’s pretty hard to deny. And no GM is going to be perfect.
by Andy Braves Fan on Feb 15, 2011 11:09 AM EST up reply actions
Thanks for the civilaty!
Though I do not agree with everything you say, it is true he at least did get us to the playoffs…and I got to go see one which I had never been to before and the place was rocking….
I still think that on a scale of 1-10 I would only put him at the best a 6..almost a 7. Right now I think the Giants GM made the better moves last year, not only during the season but down the stretch
As for Yunel, I miss him too and though I thought he was starting to be a prick in the clubhouse….I think Frank should have considered that if he was to bring Freddie in would he be able to get him straighten out…he has tremendous up-side.
So, thanks again for not joining in with everyone else that has decided that my opinion is not worth posting…………………………….
""People ask me what I do in winter when there’s no baseball. I’ll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring." Rogers Hornsby
by bravestatoo on Feb 15, 2011 10:20 PM EST up reply actions
Your Welcome
And a couple of notes: The Giants GM didn’t really do anything spectacular at the end of the season. He bought low on Cody Ross, and traded an aging crappy catcher to allow their uber prospect into the majors (when the mistake was keeping Posey in the minors for too long). A lot of the Giants success was their pitching mixed with dumb luck (Aubrey Huff? Juan Uribe? Edgar Renteria? Andres Torres the 30something year old wonder rookie? Posey’s stolen base?). And the is making the same mistakes again by keeping Brandon Belt on the farm to retain his old team.
Frank Wren, for his part, pulled very similar rabbits out of the hat by giving Prado the starting role, Troy Glaus, Derrek Lee, Billy Wagner, etc. Braves just happened to get hurt (Chipper, Prado, Medlen, Jurrjens, etc. etc.) come playoff time, and the Giants were healthy, not to mention had a nice month of October, proving that in October anything can happen. Another example, the 84 win Cardinals winning the World Series.
Wren isn’t perfect, and whatever you conclude from your own analysis is your opinon, and that’s fine. But Frank Wren has made some really great decisions for the Braves, and tough ones too. I just don’t see why you are so down on him.
by Andy Braves Fan on Feb 16, 2011 9:50 AM EST up reply actions
But you have given nothing to back your opinion up. You do understand that, right?
This guy wants to suck all the cubs dick can he not have an unbias some what partition reguards
by RWH2 on Apr 5, 2010 10:20 AM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Feb 16, 2011 10:28 AM EST up reply actions
Is this the part where I repeat my arguments?
Just guessing but my previous replies did not hold water?
(I think you drug the little grey box over enough of them..).
so, for the last time……
Giant’s GM made the better (although “lucky”) moves….BUT…..I am voting that he also listens to his players a little better…They would have never picked up Huff if it wasn’t for his good friend Burrel’s insistence……
..and if they needed playoff experience, then Edgar has a lot?
..Cody Ross given a chance to shine on the national stage probably was pretty up for that?
The Giants had injuries too but seem to be able to plug in a better option that was able to play their position.
and I guess I would have to give a Hats off to Bruce Bochie…you know he was my second wish for our next manager.
Wow! It sounds like I am feeling “Man Love” for this dude…….I guess I would feel the same about Frankie baby if he would have won us a Ring….
Tell you what if this year we lift the trophy I will hold up a sign saying Frank will you marry me?…..deal….oh, what will you have to do if we crash and burn????
I think on saying Frank you broke my little heart?
""People ask me what I do in winter when there’s no baseball. I’ll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring." Rogers Hornsby
by bravestatoo on Feb 16, 2011 11:46 PM EST up reply actions
If Frank Wren’s moves cripple this team, I will give you my wife for a week.
And no, your arguments are NOT holding any water. None whatsoever.
This guy wants to suck all the cubs dick can he not have an unbias some what partition reguards
by RWH2 on Apr 5, 2010 10:20 AM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Feb 17, 2011 9:12 AM EST up reply actions
You've got something backwards...
How does Huff get signed at Burrell’s insistence when Huff played in SF the whole season and Burrell was the mid-season acquisition??
-C
It’s rough to sit through these games and not have someone that can’t hit a Ball?
by cthabeerman on Feb 17, 2011 10:40 AM EST up reply actions
yeah..it was backass wards...now fighting memory dislexia..
""People ask me what I do in winter when there’s no baseball. I’ll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring." Rogers Hornsby
by bravestatoo on Feb 17, 2011 10:39 PM EST up reply actions
Just a few notes:
-Giants had what injuries?
-Burrell came in after Huff
-Renteria was picked up at the beginning of the season as a cheap castoff from Detroit and SF needed a SS. He didn’t even perform especially well and lost plate appearances to Juan Uribe during the season.
- Cody Ross was another castoff. It worked well for them, but when he was picked up he was hitting .265/.316/.405. As I recall he was a waiver trade that the Braves were interested in as well. Thus he might have been a Brave if Frank Wren had a better waiver pick but the Giants were ahead in the order, namely because the Braves had been kicking ass ALL season.
Again, you have a right to your opinion, but you should consider all of the facts.
by Andy Braves Fan on Feb 17, 2011 11:27 AM EST up reply actions
Kung fu Panda could not rake because he ate a full plate...really...the food and the plate too....
obesity is like an injury for a baseball team…(see Andruw Jones/Dodgers
""People ask me what I do in winter when there’s no baseball. I’ll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring." Rogers Hornsby
by bravestatoo on Feb 17, 2011 10:41 PM EST up reply actions
Ok
still doesn’t count, not an injury.
Furthermore, Kung Fu Panda’s weight was only half the problem. His plate discipline in Frenchy-esque at best, and with his approach there was little chance he would rake like he did in 2009 again.
by Andy Braves Fan on Feb 18, 2011 5:22 PM EST up reply actions
They actually were unlucky last season
http://www.beyondtheboxscore.com/2011/2/2/1969564/2010-bsrized-standings
The WAR folks like yunel apparently. i know this, bobby cox hated going to war with this guy. ~Jon Heyman
by TheBravestWay To Block A Decent Prospect on Feb 10, 2011 6:07 PM EST up reply actions
that Posey call was crap
that’s what happens when you have yankee, or hippie(pacific coasters) umpires making calls, they always screw up
Mathew 19:26 "With God, all things are possible"
You had me until the last sentence.
But good work nonetheless.
LIVE EST
Tape-delayed for the West Coast
Spoken like a true troll.
"That guy mvhsbball is really an insufferable schmuck." - FuquaManuel
by Scott Coleman on Feb 10, 2011 2:43 AM EST up reply actions
He's just a Giants fan...
…who hangs around here. That being said, the Giants lineup last year was an amazing collection of throwing together anything they could find to fill the holes greated by DeRosa’s disappearance, Sandoval’s collapse, etc. On the other hand, the lineup never really was good, just good enough with that pitching staff; and the pitching staff was hardly cobbled-together luck.
Yes, I know. I always poke jokes at TL2.
"That guy mvhsbball is really an insufferable schmuck." - FuquaManuel
by Scott Coleman on Feb 10, 2011 3:24 PM EST up reply actions
Apologize. Now. lol
"It looks like The Hound of the Baskervilles out there." - Steve Stone
"...I'm reminded of Wuthering Heights." - Harry Caray
~
Swing and a drive...Belted right! Welcome to the Show!!!
by Chief Noc-A-Homa on Feb 10, 2011 5:41 PM EST up reply actions
Yeah, because a troll would use phrases like, “good work nonetheless.”
Schmuck. :^)
LIVE EST
Tape-delayed for the West Coast
That’s me!
"That guy mvhsbball is really an insufferable schmuck." - FuquaManuel
by Scott Coleman on Feb 10, 2011 3:24 PM EST up reply actions
Nice post...
Nobody is perfect but Wren has done a great job. He has my support 100%, which I’m sure is super important to him… ;o)
There are no Giants in Braves Country. Well, except Jason Heyward.

by 























