NL bEAST
by jrod1142 on Dec 30, 2011 9:17 PM EST
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Does anyone besides me pay attention to what's going on in our division? I see the Nationals have picked up one of the better left handed pitchers in the American League. We'd better hope Prado and Uggla develop some consistency this year. Considering we play the Nationals 19 times this season, it's going to be difficult to match up with Gonzales and Strausburg three to four times. Can anyone again justify Wren not going to get a right handed bat this off season? Jrods back
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"Can anyone again justify Wren not going to get a right handed bat this off season?"
Sure. No move he could have made would have improved the team over what we already have.
And no, we don’t pay attention to other teams at all.
What else can I do for you?
No move he could have made would have improved the team over what we already have.
I completely beg to disagree. Signing Pujols, albeit financially irresponsible, would have made us a better team. However, had you said “No realistic move…” I would have agreeded wholeheartedly.
by JoelGuzman'sScout on Dec 31, 2011 3:46 AM EST up reply actions
.
Does anyone besides me pay attention to what’s going on in our division?
It’s not like there’s a dedicated post about the happenings around the division every week or something.
No wonder nobody likes you, Tuttle... everything's a (Pujols) damn debate.
by royhobbs on Dec 31, 2011 1:42 AM EST reply actions 7 recs
"NL bEAST"
I see what you did there, jrod. I see what you did!
by Scott Coleman on Dec 31, 2011 2:39 AM EST via mobile reply actions
If Gio Gonzalez was one of the better left handers in the AL, it would only have been because there weren’t that many good lefties in the AL.
I wrote a novel, it's about baseball, you should buy it:
http://www.amazon.com/Four-C-B-Wilkins/dp/1449578454/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1257720610&sr=1-1
www.dropoutproductions.com
.....
I’m still not hearing anything justifiable.. They just dumped 15 million with Derek Lowe. Willingham, Cuddyer, were viable options. Hanley Ramirez is probably still going to be out there.
@cbwilk 15-9 in 2010 16-12 in 2011? American League pitcher? He’s top 5 lefty in AL on a terrible team. Put him against predominantly left handed hitting teams Iike Braves and Phillies. Now the Nationals are going to push the Braves aside in the race for second place.
Okay I'll take
1. The Braves didn’t dump 15M with Lowe. They dumped 10M. And considering Lowe had never pitched up to the $15M he was making each year, it was due diligence to finally punt and try to recoup some production from somewhere else.
2. Willingham and Cuddyer are nice luxuries to have, but the truth in the matter is that neither were needed. A guy named Martin Prado, although might not have nearly as much power production, can be just as useful as either of those two, and is also right-handed.
3. Hanley Ramirez would probably be never available to the Braves, no matter how available he may seem to you which is kind of an absurd thought in itself. The Marlins would be selling low on a guy who’s under an expensive contract who if healthy is the caliber of player you put a little bit of faith of a franchise on. No way the Marlins help out the Braves by filling one of their biggest needs with a monstrous talent, not to mention the (crap)storm that would happen between he and Fredi.
4. Five AL lefty pitchers better than Gio Gonzalez in 2011 – C.C. Sabathia, Jon Lester, Matt Harrison (ouch), C.J. Wilson, David Price. Five AL lefty pitchers better than Gio Gonzalez in 2010 – Cliff Lee, Jon Lester, Francisco Liriano, John Danks, Ricky Romero. Gio Gonzalez is by no means cat food, but he’s still a #2 starter on the best day of his life, and walks way too many guys to be considered anything close to a top-5 pitcher.
Nobody refutes the idea of the bEASTliness of the division, but to imagine that the Braves are suddenly now a fourth place team because they didn’t make a bunch of frivolous, reactionary ill-advised moves is cowardly. Feel free to cover your eyes whenever a division rival is being played, I’d rather see some exciting baseball instead.
No wonder nobody likes you, Tuttle... everything's a (Pujols) damn debate.
by royhobbs on Dec 31, 2011 11:20 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Actually...
…we only dumped $5 million with Lowe—-we’re still paying $10 million.
As for the comments on Willingham and Cuddyer, neither of them is a noticeable upgrade overall on Prado, so jrod, how would that have helped?
My mistake
I knew what I was thinking, but I clearly typed it out incorrectly.
No wonder nobody likes you, Tuttle... everything's a (Pujols) damn debate.
off-season
The best move the Braves done this off-season,was not making sudden,impulse moves.Hiring a new stop-gap hitting coach,till chipper retires will help our terrible hitting.Behind the phillies our pitchingstaff is one of the best in the national league.Hitting last season was up and down,and i blame that on coaching styles.Every hitter is different and sometimes you have to just get in the head and make a hitter think a slump is minor.I know ill get critized,bashed,and called names for posting on here like ussuall but Parrish did not have the trust of our hitters which the new coach ,from what ive read ,he had success with.Chipper will be coaching in the Braves organization as soon as he retires.
Gio Gonzales. 15-9 and 16-12 on an Oakland A’s team that finished last this year and third the year before.. You named pitchers on teams that could have made the play offs and out of your five he had more wins then al of them except Sabathis last season. My eyes won’t be closed to watch the Nationals bludgeon the Braves this year. I’ll be one of the many that still believe they are still HOPING to catch lighting in a bottle. So you’d better hope, Prado, Uggla and the rookie will be sufficient from the right side. Chipper at 41 with two bad knees can’t do it all, all the time
lol wins and losses
All the pitchers I named were better than Gio Gonzalez on a peripheral level, and measured in wins above replacement value in those respective years. It has absolutely nothing to do with who they played for.
Not all of them were similar in the rate in which they struck out guys, some were better, some were worse. But ALL of them, were significantly better at not walking guys than Gio Gonzalez was. Those walks are a killer. Gio has control issues, and if the Braves can show the patience they showed in 2010, it would be death by a thousand cuts watching Gio collapse in four innings with 116 pitches thrown every time he faced the Braves.
No wonder nobody likes you, Tuttle... everything's a (Pujols) damn debate.
Using W-L as the metric
There were 7 starting LHP in the AL better than Gio Gonzalez.
For the record, Gio Gonzalez had a 1.32 WHIP last season. That’s very bad.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Dec 31, 2011 9:14 PM EST up reply actions
Gio Gonzalez is a good, solid pitcher.
He’s not great however because, as has been noted, he walks too many hitters.
I like Gio
But I wouldn’t call him one of the top leftys in the game.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Jan 1, 2012 2:52 PM EST up reply actions
Agreed. If he cut the walks he could be one, but if he doesn’t, he’s Jonathan Sanchez and gets traded for Melky, lol.
Hahahah
Nice.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Jan 1, 2012 10:04 PM EST up reply actions
Call me crazy but if the Braves made a move for a front line talent it may put some extra bodies in the stands. Not implying lets make another Mark Texieria deal and hope the former Georgia Tech alum will take a hometown discount. Trade for a Carlos Quentin or perhaps sign a veteran inexpensive player.. The two best options took below market deals. If we’re doing simple math then the subtraction of Lowe plus the 30-35 million the Braves claim to have for next years mediocre free agent stock. Should still have put them below the money they just dumped.
1. Reply button.
2. The money we dumped in Lowe is already used. We have a couple million to spend in this years budget.
3. Adding a big name might draw fans, but Carlos Quentin or an inexpensive veteran isn’t a big name, you want a name to draw people in Atlanta you need to add a legitimate superstar, and that’s not a financial risk that our club can come close to taking at the moment.
We added Dan Uggla and Michael Bourn last year, two names as big if not bigger than Carlos and our attendance went down.
Q: If not us, who? If not now, when? A: The Batman. And "when you least expect it."
Where would Quentin play?
If we traded for him or signed an inexpensive veteran, what would be the point? Quentin is a corner OF (at best, he’s really a DH) and when all factors are considered, both Heyward and Prado are better than he is. (His defense is Garrett Anderson level). So, again, what would be the point?
According to rumors:
Nationals are interested in Prince Fielder and the Marlins are discussing a trade for Matt Garza. This could really be the NL bEAST.
We have two of the best hitters at each of their positions in McCann and Uggla.
We have the best bullpen in baseball and one of the best rotations in baseball.
We have a potential monster in RF and a great hitter at 1B.
We have a future HoFer and one of the top 2 or 3 switch hitters of ALL TIME at 3B.
Can you explain to me how Matt Garza to the Marlins gives us no chance at the division?
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Jan 1, 2012 9:11 AM EST up reply actions
I'm not agreeing with jrod , but
number 1 and 2 are correct . I’m not totally sold on Heyward yet , but I do believe that Freeman could be one of the better hitters in baseball down the road . I honestly think that he could have a better career than Heyward . And all though Chipper is a future HOFer , you know he is only gonna play 2/3 of the season at best and is only gonna be able to put up a slash line of around .275/.340/.425 with 12-15 HR’s & 50-65 RBI’s . But , I do still think that we still have the TALENT to take the division and and do some damage in the playoffs . But people have to play up to that talent and others have to stay healthy . And those are big ifs .
Why are you more inclined to believe that sucky Heyward is the real Heyward?
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Jan 1, 2012 1:27 PM EST up reply actions
Mainly cause I believe that pitchers exposed some holes in his swing that he wasn't able to adjust too .
I know we have a new hitting coach now , and hopefully he’ll do more good than damage with Heyward . But anything away , he’d pull on the ground almost every time to 2nd . And he wiffed on most fastballs up on his hands . He also let more ‘right down the middle pitches’ pass than he actually swung at . I’m not saying that he won’t be able to figure it out . He has tons of power . If he were to take a more center field to left field gap swing approach , I think he would figure out that he doesn’t have to pull everything to be effective . I also think he could stop all of his pre-swing motion because of him being so strong and learn to use his upper body a little more . I’m no proffessional batting coach , although sometimes I wonder if I could do better than some who are , but sometimes you need to just simplify things to get the most out of yourself by relying more so on your skill than on your power .
My only point is
there is a much longer, larger, convincing sample size that 2011 was an aberration for Heyward.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Jan 1, 2012 5:59 PM EST up reply actions
Lets all hope so .
He , just like any other prospect , are never guarenteed to suceed . He’s no exception . Although I really do hope he turns it around and figures it out .
I don't think it is his swing which is the danger...
…for him not making it despite being a huge prospect. It’s the thing that gets most can’t miss guys that miss—-injuries. If he could play injury free seasons, I think he’ll be great, but he hasn’t even come close to that, and there is no way to know whether he will.
So much this
It’s all of those nagging injuries and the insistence of playing through them that worry me.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Jan 1, 2012 10:04 PM EST up reply actions
Especially the hands and shoulders...
and maybe a wrist in the future, with his head first slides and how much force that can be from his size/speed slamming in to the bag at impact.
http://sportsandgrits.com/
It would be such a shame.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Jan 1, 2012 10:08 PM EST up reply actions
So what do you do then ?
Do you tell your future superstart to try and not give a %110 to have a better shot at staying healthy ? Or do you tell him to keep up the tremendous effort and hope for the best , hoping that he’ll find a way to limit future injuries ?
You weigh
the future of the club vs the desire to win right now.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Jan 1, 2012 10:53 PM EST up reply actions
The way it stands right now
I think the future of the team is bright either way , but the will or desire to win right now should always be the teams goal .
I disagree
The pitching future of the team is bright. The offensive future of the team depends almost 100% on Heyward. If he develops into what we all thought he was going to be, then the future is very bright. If he never recovers from the nagging injuries, he’ll be like JD Drew.
Heyward is the cornerstone of the future of the team. If he isn’t performing well, neither will the team.
I think it’s far more important to ensure as much as humanly possible that Heyward is healthy. If that means sitting him for long periods of time, I’m ok with that.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Jan 2, 2012 11:08 AM EST up reply actions
I'm not so sure
that Heyward is the conerstone of the teams future . I was actually more impressed with Freemans rookie than Heywards . And even though those two are the young guns on offense , our pitching has been the biggest part of our team for years . And with guys like Teheran , Beachy , Minor (who I wasn’t all that impressed with) , and Delgado as the possible future of our starting rotation , and Kimbrel , Venters and Viz in the pen , I don’t necassarily think that our future will be determined by just that one guy . Heyward will be a huge factor going forward , but if he doesn’t pan out to be the superstar he is billed to be , I think as long as those other guys play to their potential that we’ll be fine .
Oh jrod lol
are you trying to take chopmasters place with this post and “Front Office Fortitude”?
Chopmaster: my link is my dad who has watched the braves since I don’t know. he’s 56.
I am so upset with myself
for never reading that thread until this morning.
It would have been so much fun to be a part of.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Jan 1, 2012 1:09 PM EST up reply actions
I’ve been so busy lately…and only getting busier.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Jan 2, 2012 9:47 PM EST up reply actions
fighting Cobra(lalala) and general protecting the planet shit
No wonder nobody likes you, Tuttle... everything's a (Pujols) damn debate.
by royhobbs on Jan 3, 2012 1:33 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
.
No wonder nobody likes you, Tuttle... everything's a (Pujols) damn debate.
by royhobbs on Jan 3, 2012 1:49 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Does your mom still hang out at dockside bars?
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Jan 3, 2012 3:09 PM EST up reply actions
Nah
Sunglass Huts near the Oakleys displays are just as easy pickins
No wonder nobody likes you, Tuttle... everything's a (Pujols) damn debate.
Whoosh?
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Jan 3, 2012 3:28 PM EST up reply actions
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NXpXkC9TIc8
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Jan 3, 2012 3:30 PM EST up reply actions
"Can anyone again justify Wren not going to get a right handed bat this off season"
You have options. Would you rather replace McCann, Freeman, Heyward or Bourn? The rest are right handed or switch hitters. So, who do you replace? Prado? He’s pretty good, very versatile, not too expensive. Who’s better that we can afford? Who’s better that Wren can trade for?
"First!"...Who gives a damn if you are first
They had a chance at Queintin.. He went to Padres for two prospects. That’s affordable. It’s slim Pickens now. As far a affordable, This is what Wren is gonna do.. Go buy a washed up veteran and hope he’s got some life left in him. Martin Prado shouldn’t be in a trade discussion, he’s Chippers replacement. With the way the division is shaping up, Braves fans should be terribly concerned. We are going to be placing a lot on a set of rookie shortstop ats regarded as not the top prospect. A lot of your guys opinions are off of projections. If the stars align and they all have great years we may have a chance.. Get real!!!!!make a trade Wren
You don’t make trades just for the sake of making trades. You make a trade to improve your club.
You are insinuating that the only way that Wren can improve the club is to make a trade, or else, you are insinuating that Frank Wren is intentionally not improving this team – which would be contrary to every logical idea regarding the subject.
You need to stop.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Jan 1, 2012 5:58 PM EST up reply actions
Affordable in prospects yes
affordable monetarily is a different subject.
http://sportsandgrits.com/
I have a hard time getting “terribly concerned” about basically keeping a team together that had 89 wins despite a 10 win and 20 loss finish. I feel like dumping Lowe and Gonzo, adding Minor and Pastornicky is an improvement. We have very little payroll flexability, I’m happy with Wren not blowing up a pretty good team.
Without looking it up, we finished 9 games ahead of the Nats and about 20 ahead of the Marlins. I don’t see that much improvement from those teams. Reyes is due for a post-contract downfall and Heath Bell is replacing a good closer. Beurhle isn’t 18 wins better than anybody.
What have the Nats done this off season? I can’t think of anything that would make them a 90 win team.
"First!"...Who gives a damn if you are first
The Nats got Strausburg back.. He over matched the Braves in 2010. They have a more legitimate chance of being better then the Braves then you think. 9 games that either Gonzales or Strausburg could easily shut us down! Adding another legit Major League Player via trade would only be keeping pace with what other teams are doing. Not making a trade to make one. If they feel so secure about their team why did Wren try and get Adam Jones?
The Nats got Strausburg back.. He over matched the Braves in 2010.
Except he lost that game, and has lost both starts against Atlanta.
That 2010 game where he “overmatched” us, he gave up 4 runs in 6 1/3 innings.
In 2011, he gave up 3 runs in a mere 4 innings.
I’m shaking in my boots at the thought of a guy we’ve gotten too easily both times we faced him, who will be rusty in his first year back from Tommy John.
http://sportsandgrits.com/
Huh?
Strasburgh has pitched 2 games against the Braves and has gave up 5 earned runs in 10.1 innings . Thats a 4.35 ERA . Oh , and he lost both games . We seem to handle him just fine . I would like to see some movement from our FO too . But only if it improves the team . But where we stand right now , we will still be the second best team in our division if not the best . Pastornicky doesn’t have to do much to be an improvement over Gonzo . And you had players like Heyward , Prado , Uggla who struggled mightily at times if not the whole season . And those injuries hurt our starting rotation last year also . But there is a still a hell of a lot of promise for next year and the future .
It will not surprise me one bit if Beachy has better stats than Strasburg in 2012.
"First!"...Who gives a damn if you are first
Phwew
I thought I might have stepped in it on that one!
"First!"...Who gives a damn if you are first
I think you're safe .
Beachy looked absolutely dominating at times last year . There has also been some talk about Strasburgh’s body size and how well he be able to last in the bigs trying to pitch a full season . He may actually be better suited pitching in the pen . So it’s not totally impossible to think that Beachy could have better numbers , not knowing how well Strasburgh will be able to perform coming back from a major injury .
I’m real impressed with Beachy. If he ever beats the Phillies he could really be set free.
"First!"...Who gives a damn if you are first
Me neither
But I liked what McCann had to say about him late in the season. That Minor was figuring it out, getting better every start. With questions about Hudson, Hanson and Jurrjens, we could be watching Beachy and Minor having very important roles this year.
"First!"...Who gives a damn if you are first
I think Huddy and JJ will be fine .
I am a little concerned about Hanson . But we have options who can pitch in his place .
Strasburg
has never over matched Atlanta. Some of his worst numbers in his short career have come against them.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Jan 1, 2012 8:13 PM EST up reply actions
maybe not 90 win teams
but strong enough to keep the braves from getting to 90 wins. And even if reyes has a down year, their lineup is due for an uptick from HR and Logan morrison suddenly has a year more experience.
The Nats present a problem because they are molded like we are in that they have the ability to shorten games and have thunder in the middle of the lineup. Given the athletes in their farm system, the arms returning/entering the mold, and the fact that Fielder is still looming, the entire division should be on notice.
Finally, someone on a post that may know something about baseball.
The Nats position by position could be better then the Braves.. Atlanta may get the edge on starting pitching, but not by much.
Ramos vs McCann…McCann
LaRoche vs Freeman….Freeman
Espinosa vs Uggla….Uggla
Desmond vs Pastornicky….Desmond
Zimmerman vs Chipper….close, probably Zimmerman
Morse vs Prado….Morse
Werth vs Bourn….Bourn
Bernadina vs Heyward…..Heyward
Strasburg, Gonzalez, Zimmerman, Wang, Lannan vs Hudson, Hanson, Jurrjens, Beachy, Minor…..I like the Braves rotation but the Nats did improve over 2011.
The Nats have 5 starters that batted .253 or lower in 2011. I realize BA isn’t a great stat, but you used Wins for pitchers, so fair’s fair. The Nats will be improved in 2012, but so will the Braves.
"First!"...Who gives a damn if you are first
Beat me to it...
thanks hop. Yeah, the Nats really are better “position by position”, and if Prado and Morse return to form, we are better there too.
http://sportsandgrits.com/
I'm here to serve my fellow man
"First!"...Who gives a damn if you are first
Bighop, let's not underestimate the Nats...
…Bernadina is just a placeholder who probably becomes Bryce Harper at some point during the year. Desmond may be better than what we end up with at short, but Rendon is rumored to be tried at second, and if that works, he could be up quickly, too—-his bat is going to be ready before the season is over. (He would move Espinosa to short, and Desmond to the bench or another team.) If I had to guess, I also think the Nats will land Fielder. They are nothing to be laughed at.
They are probably still a year away when we can expect Rendon and Harper to be there, but I think they are a decent bet for one of the wild card spots this year. Nothing against us—they just held their powder, used their high draft picks well and then are starting to spend when it helps most. MLB is tough and the Nats have more money to spend than us, plus a bunch of really high draft picks (from their previous suckitude) that will be coming into focus when they are spending. We are still in good position—-I think we are still better on paper, but it will be close. Never supposed to be easy, and in a division that could easily rival the AL East for the toughest in baseball for the next few years, it is going to be brutal.
Now, note that none of this means we should do the silly stuff that jrod talks about, like trading for Quentin, who shouldn’t make our starting lineup if we got him.
I can’t argue with a word of that, I think you are dead on it. But in 2012, I think the Braves are better than the Nats.
"First!"...Who gives a damn if you are first
Probably we are.
But the Phillies are still very dangerous in 2012. I would not be surprised at all with us playing the Nats in a wild card game this year. Of course, we all the talent in the NL East, maybe not, but I wouldn’t underestimate them even for this year. In 2013, yeah, they may be the biggest problem ahead of the Phillies.
We should be able to make a good move at the deadline, we have $$ for next off season and a bunch of young players getting great experience. I’m happy with where we are, the Braves should keep having winning seasons. Win more than you lose, your doing ok. Win 90-95 games, you matter. I think the Braves matter.
"First!"...Who gives a damn if you are first
Honestly
I’m more worried about the Marlins than the Nats.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Jan 1, 2012 10:05 PM EST up reply actions
Not me...
the chances Reyes and Hanley don’t create friction by June? Or spend months on the DL, especially Reyes, in addition to the injury prone Josh Johnson. They have no CF. LoMo is a few tweets from being shipped out. Stanton is my favorite there, but does he become a Mark Reynolds K machine? Does Bell’s age being a relief arm fall apart, and can he be successful away from Petco? Do they have strong prospects ready to fill in the gaps as others age and fall apart? I don’t think they’ll ever be a winner with their crap owner.
http://sportsandgrits.com/
I think the odds of things going right for the Marlins are higher than things going right for the Nats.
The Nats have just as many injury questions to their rotation as the Marlins do to their lineup.
I’m not saying it’s a certainty…I just personally am more scared of the Marlins than the Nats.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Jan 1, 2012 10:10 PM EST up reply actions
Those are all true statements.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Jan 1, 2012 10:15 PM EST up reply actions
I would add to this discussion...
…but ya’ll pretty much covered it. The Nats have more upside with youth, but both have the injury issue. Both could be dangerous, but I think the Marlins’ upside is less, which is why I am more afraid of the Nats. But both have a win total downside of 70. I just think the Nats have an upside of 95 compared to the Marlins’ 90. The NL East is going to be hell for the foreseeable future.
looking into my crystal ball , I see...
the Braves , this year or more likely next , being the new Phillies and pushing them back to second or third in the division while trying our best to keep distance between us and the Nats . We and the Nats are young with tons of talent in different areas . The Phillies were a good team for many years but , age and injuries are starting to catch up to them . They also are going to start having heavy contracts to have to deal with , most notably Hammels next year .
The only thing
that kept the Braves from 95 wins this past season was Fredi Gonzalez, Derek Lowe, Scott Proctor and Scott Linebrink.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Jan 1, 2012 8:14 PM EST up reply actions
I put that on Fredi. it was his hire, and he stuck with him the entire season – and even tried to bring him back!
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Jan 1, 2012 8:51 PM EST up reply actions
Yeah
I think it was the day after the season ended, Fredi said nobody was going to get fired, and that the whole coaching staff would be back.
Apparently, Frank Wren had other ideas.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Jan 1, 2012 10:06 PM EST up reply actions
Besides Morse , Espinoza and Werth
where is all that thunder at that you are talking about ? I think Werth is overrated and won’t do much more than what he did last year . Zimmerman it looks like might be on the down side of his career . Espinoza did well the first half but pitchers either figured him out the second , or he started getting himself out . I think Morse is the real deal .
The Marlins will more than likely have a few costly injuries (Reyes , Johnson , Ramirez ) . They do have some good young talent , but their pitching is still questionable in their starting rotation and in the pen . How’s Johnson gonna do after coming back from a major injury ? How’s Buehrle’s game gonna translate going from a division where he only had to face 1 good offense in the Tigers , to now having to face the Phillies , Braves and Nats ? Can Reyes stay healthy for a full season ? Can Bell produce as well coming over from a offensively challeged division ? BTW , the Mets , Nats and Braves have done somewhat OK against him . He hasn’t exactly dominated us .
There are just as many question marks surrounding those 2 teams as anyone else . We’ll be fine . You can relax now . You can thank me later .
Bell is replacing Nunez (or whatever his name is now), Nunez was pretty good. Bell really isn’t much of an upgrade from a good closer.
"First!"...Who gives a damn if you are first
No he isn't
The guy is also 33 this year , which may not matter . But he hasn’t exactly dominated the NL East after looking at his splits . Well , except for the Phillies . LOL .
Let's be realistic.
Yes, the Marlins are decent but not great, but Zimmerman is 27, to say he is on the downside of his career is more than a bit of a stretch. He’s good. If he stays healthy he is very good.
Yes, but...
…hard to say downside at 27 when the guy is that good. Let’s be honest—-when he is healthy for a full season, he is a beast.
Agreed
with Longoria, he’s one of the top 2 3B in all of baseball right now.
http://sportsandgrits.com/
No you're right .
He is only 27 . Just seems as though he has been around forever . We;ll see if he can stay healthy next year and have a rebound year .
hahaha, that is the thunder!
and that should be enough for them to contend…werth in my mind is only overrated due to his contract, and he fell into the “just signed a 9 figure deal and sucked the next year” category. the phillies really got rolling after they got the preying mantis…from watching them all year you could tell the right handed high OBP guy is the catalyst to wins in bunches. With adequate protection in the form of one more bat(i’m still thinking fielder ends up in Washington), Werth can be a 4-4.5 win player due to his flexibility in outfield play and lineup construction.
and agreed 100% on morse, his swing maybe a bit long and filled with hitches, but he mashes…i’m hedging my bet on fielder, so if fielder doesn’t sign then I think we see an improved Nats, but right at .500.
The marlins are the team that I will agree with logic, reason, stats…you name it, but we need to remember the Marlins kept us in 2nd place for a while with out Reyes. Injuries, regressions, conflicts or not(those are a potential problem in most clubhouses)I think that there is a really strong possibility of the braves being 5-9 games over .500 and being in 3rd place due to each team within the NLbEast(stole that from someone that I can’t remember, so ya anonymous citation insert here!) progressively improving…
now, just to qualify, if heyward hits above 260 with an ops near his rookie year(and everyone else hits like the back of their baseball cards) then we are better in every facet than our competition within our division save a head to head match up of starters with the phills. a lot of “if/thens” but what else can we do in 40 degree weather still nursing a hangover from NewYearsEve?
I agree with pretty much everything you said
but if even if we stay pat with no other trades or signings , you have guys like Prado , Uggla , Heyward and McCann who underperformed or were injured for either part of the year or all year . As long as they play to their potential , our offense will be much improved . We also added a few wins by subtraction in getting rid of Gonzo , Lowe , Proctor and Linebrink (who wasn’t that bad) . Some of these younger guys , after getting some ML time under their belt , could really be good next year . I think that we have improved quite a bit just from getting some people out of the rotation and out of the lineup , and getting some of the younger guys some experience . And I still think we take 2nd if not 1st in our division .
We also added a few wins by subtraction in getting rid of Gonzo , Lowe , Proctor and Linebrink (who wasn’t that bad)
IMO Gonzo was a wash. His stick was atrocious but his D was of the highest caliber.
"People ask me what I do in winter when there's no baseball. I'll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring." Rogers Hornsby
His D
did not make up for his bat.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Jan 3, 2012 8:12 PM EST up reply actions
I agree
I absolutely loved his D . But I think he costed us more runs than he actually saved us by his defense .
Yes, we had a chance for Quentin, but why would we want him?
You don’t want Prado traded, you said that yourself. Quentin isn’t better than Heyward, and he doesn’t play center (he really doesn’t play right or left either, lol). So if we had gotten him, where would he play? Is the big acquisition you want just a bench bat? Indeed, if offense and defense are considered, we have better players than him at every position (because well, he can’t even think about playing shortstop), so why?
I know you want us to improve because you see the Nats improving—-but you don’t give any realistic options for us actually to improve. Yes, the Nats are improving and the Phillies haven’t fallen yet. It will make the NL East hell for a while—-with two wild cards now, I see quite a few Wild Card one and done games between two of the three of us, the Phillies, and the Nats in the next few years. That’s about all you can do when the competition is good. As the Red Sox, Yankees, and Rays.
by cavebird on Jan 1, 2012 9:42 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Where?
LF for two months when Chipper is on the DL, a third month when Prado is on the DL. And then in RF for the month and a half Heyward is out. Otherwise, he’s the RH pinch hitter we wish Diaz could be.
http://sportsandgrits.com/
He's the RH pinch hitter we wish Diaz could be?????
Quentin is a career 0.228 hitter vs. LHP. He hit 0.297against them last year, but I wouldn’t bet $7.5 million that he’ll repeat that performance. Essentially, he’s a ROOGY.
Sorry, my fellow Gladiator...
…but all those ifs, that could land him as a bench bat does not justify trading for him with his salary and prospect price. Yes, the Padres got him on the cheap, but on ly because the White Sox iditot-trust (oops, brain-trust) like their iffy guys. If we wanted to get him, they might have wanted good prospects. Which is not what you give for a possible bench guy who can’t play defense anywhere when you are an NL team.
I don't disagree there...
except that if they took scrap prospects from SD for him, they wouldn’t ask for more from us. But he’s not worth the salary, which we wouldn’t/couldn’t afford anyway.
http://sportsandgrits.com/
Did we have a chance though?
Salary wise, it seems like Wren can’t spend. We weren’t in on Beltran, who was pretty well priced. We didn’t go for any SS to let Pasty develop a little longer. We haven’t signed a single free agent other than scraps, or made a trade other to save unspent (in terms of a FA or another trade acquisition) money on Lowe. So while we could have easily afford Quentin in terms of trade pieces, could we add him, or anyone of significance really, financially?
http://sportsandgrits.com/
Doesn't seem like it
"First!"...Who gives a damn if you are first
How can we improve?
By not giving the ball to Big Game Lowe, Crunch Time Proctor or Pressure Situation Linebrink.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Jan 1, 2012 10:07 PM EST up reply actions
I'm bored.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Jan 1, 2012 10:11 PM EST up reply actions
Dude
I’ve been really quiet this offseason. I gotta get my shots in when I can.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Jan 1, 2012 10:15 PM EST up reply actions
This years 20lb lighter Jason Heyward could have played CF. He did last year at times. Call it what you want but Prado and Bourne combined wouldnt have brought CQ’s power production. Its water under the bridge now. He’s a Padre and Prince is about to be a National. Let’s get ready to be the second loser. Thanks Wren.
Jason Heyward has never played CF at the MLB level.
In 1077 career PAs, all but 11 have come from the RF position. The 11 non-RF PAs came as a DH.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Jan 3, 2012 11:21 PM EST up reply actions
Even with Prince Fielder
the Nationals are not a better team than the Braves.
I’m not sure why you feel the need to keep trumpeting this crap, but it’s getting really annoying.
If you think CQ would have made this team better, then I seriously doubt your baseball IQ.
Where would he play? 4th OFer is where. A 4th OFer is not going to make us better than any team currently better than us.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Jan 3, 2012 11:23 PM EST up reply actions
Add Fielder...
…and Oswalt, and that’s one tough team, however. As it is, they won’t be easy. In 2013, when they presumably have Harper and possibly Rendon on board, look out.
Prado and Bourne combined wouldnt have brought CQ’s power production
This is factually untrue and I would love to see you show some stats that could prove your stance.
I wrote a novel, it's about baseball, you should buy it:
http://www.amazon.com/Four-C-B-Wilkins/dp/1449578454/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1257720610&sr=1-1
www.dropoutproductions.com
Maybe C.Q. are the real initials for this guy.....
If we can land [Stephen Drew], I will give FW a bj.
~justincredubil02
by king of games on Jan 4, 2012 12:00 PM EST up reply actions
(because well, he can't even think about playing shortstop)
That might be the best line in all of 2012, only 21 hours in and nowhere to go but downhill.
"First!"...Who gives a damn if you are first
by bighop on Jan 1, 2012 9:57 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
Epic reply fail to Cavebird
"First!"...Who gives a damn if you are first
Oh hell no!
Thank you, I got a great laugh out of that line.
"First!"...Who gives a damn if you are first
Perspective
While I am interested in what other teams do, I’m not overly concerned.
The Nationals will win some ball games, but let us put this in perspective. Gio Gonzalez comes out of a phenomenal pitchers park. He had a 16-12 record with a 3.12 ERA. Just a few years ago Philadelphia traded for Joe Blanton, another Oakland ace, who was 14-10 with a 3.95 ERA with the A’s. Blanton is pretty much a #5, and wouldn’t even pitch in the Braves’ rotation. I’m as equally concerned about Gonzales as a I am about Blanton.
Strasburg may be the second coming of Nolan Ryan, but I’ll believe it when I see it. So far he’s done exactly nothing except stay injured. I think Strasburg will be a pretty good starter, but I believe a lot of his hype comes more from the fact that the Washinton media has a seziure every time the kid strikes out a batter and less from his actual talent level.
Washington seemingly goes big every offseason. They have not finished closer than 9 games back since 2005, and the franchise hasn’t had a winning season since I don’t know when. Which franchise model would you rather follow?
washington is following our model
the only deviations from our model so far have been the participation in 9 figure contract ideas for free agents. this isn’t the braves front office fault(this is NOT meant to spur up an owners thread). As for gio, he is left handed. Against us he will be abnormally fatal and the league probably around where you said…as for the second nolan ryan, he is already in the league and won the cy/mvp vote!
If jrod is able to post something like this and not get perma-banned… Then I hereby demand the reinstatement of ChopMaster. At least his posts had some substance and effort… His comments left something to be desired and he wasn’t the smartest cat around… but if I am left to read something like this as a fanpost… then I should be allowed to read another ChopMaster fanpost…
As to the OP, I still refuse to give in to making a comment since I don’t even know where to begin. That is all.
In the body of other posts, I am often admittedly high and tend to not want to edit a lot.
by willlinn on Dec 2, 2011 12:01 PM PST
if Wren gets Arenado from Colorado, I’ll give him a BJ.
by Scott Coleman on Dec 19, 2011 9:45 PM PST
I don't understand you sympathizers
I enjoy witnessing chaos for the sake of chaos from time to time, sure. But there’s a point where trying too hard crosses the line, and reprimands and punishments solve nothing and zero progress is made. Not that its anyone’s business, but it’s worth mentioning that harassing/whining emails don’t solve anything either. Just because his asshattery amuses some of you doesn’t mean we’re going to let him back.
No wonder nobody likes you, Tuttle... everything's a (Pujols) damn debate.
roy... I totally understand... and I know the kid is annoying but...
reading posts from this dude… who on principal, I have not tried to help (even though you know I help anyone who is helpable)… If we can get this kind of product with little return… then certainly a 14 year old with a penchant for semi-decent posts (who was improving) has a place in the blog… I am glad I don’t get his emails… In fact, I am very very glad because I would probably figure out a way to “fix” his IP address so he doesn’t send anyone any emails… but I am certainly not a sympathizer. I am not always nice to the poor kid but he kept picking up his keyboard, dusting it off… and sometimes doing something decent with it… It’s far better than what I get from reading certain posters….
Now, if there are some behind the scene’s things going on here I don’t know about, far be it for me to second guess you guys… I love TC… I don’t want to seem like a dissenter… but I do want to make sure my point is made here… It is a free internet (unfortunately) and to let some remain while others while away in blogosphere pergatory is just cruel…
In the body of other posts, I am often admittedly high and tend to not want to edit a lot.
by willlinn on Dec 2, 2011 12:01 PM PST
if Wren gets Arenado from Colorado, I’ll give him a BJ.
by Scott Coleman on Dec 19, 2011 9:45 PM PST
by Klemson Krash on Jan 3, 2012 9:57 AM EST up reply actions
Chopmaster had more offenses than just posting useless material.
If we can land [Stephen Drew], I will give FW a bj.
~justincredubil02
by king of games on Jan 3, 2012 10:04 AM EST up reply actions
I don’t disagree w/ that… but… my point remains. We’re…. ugh… nevermind… I’m just going to do as I’ve been doing and refrain from these posts….. Just read them and shake my head until it falls off…
In the body of other posts, I am often admittedly high and tend to not want to edit a lot.
by willlinn on Dec 2, 2011 12:01 PM PST
if Wren gets Arenado from Colorado, I’ll give him a BJ.
by Scott Coleman on Dec 19, 2011 9:45 PM PST
by Klemson Krash on Jan 3, 2012 10:17 AM EST up reply actions
It's really the sloppy joe recipe we're after
Bring him back long enough for him to spill the beans on that & then you can ban hammer him all you want. :^)
"People ask me what I do in winter when there's no baseball. I'll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring." Rogers Hornsby
by adc62 on Jan 4, 2012 4:47 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Nice
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Jan 4, 2012 5:06 PM EST up reply actions
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