New Years Rosterbation
by bighop on Dec 28, 2011 10:46 AM EST
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Well, here we sit. Looks like no major changes without a trade and the trade market hasn't been too exciting. Maybe Jurrjens knee has other teams skeptical, or is it that the Braves "kwow when to trade a pitcher" that has them too nervous to offer Wren a decent return? Maybe Prado is too valuable to the Braves, Lord knows he'll be needed at 3rd base plenty in 2012.
We have a pretty good group of Minor League Free Agents with invitations to spring training. We can probably survive with Pastornicky, Josh Wilson and Drew Sutton fighting it out for short stop and backup middle infielder, but a good addition for the MI bench would probably be a good thing.
We don't seem to have much money at the ready, it's almost like excessive Rosterbation has made us go blind. Any ideas?
This FanPost does not express the views or opinions of Talking Chop.
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I bet we end up picking up Seth Smith for B-Level minor leaguers.
If we can land [Stephen Drew], I will give FW a bj.
~justincredubil02
I could live with that. He’s 1st time arb eligible in 2012, FA in 2015. Not worth JJ or Prado, but not a terrible pick up.
"First!"...Who gives a damn if you are first
Every day they seem more desperate to just get rid of him. Especially now that they really want Cody Ross. This is probably what Wren has been waiting for.
If we can land [Stephen Drew], I will give FW a bj.
~justincredubil02
by king of games on Dec 28, 2011 11:52 AM EST up reply actions
His home/away splits are pretty radical, if Wren trades for him, I hope he doesn’t trade away much.
"First!"...Who gives a damn if you are first
Smith is a platoon guy – - plain and simple… almost 5:1 ratio of plate appearances vs. RHP over lefties. But given what he’s done vs. RHP, that fits like a glove with Caveman going the other direction, so it wouldn’t be a turrible thing.
"Sir Stealth, Stay stealth.. Your a moron" (jrod1142), 12/15/11 (the epic FWren Fortitude FanPost)
"Now if you somehow talked the Diamondbacks into throwing in Stephen Drew in that deal [with Justin Upton]… then I’d be in the line w/ justin and whoever else w/ my knee pads on." - Klemson Krash, 12/20/2011
Still, a .925 OPS at home and a .750 OPS on the road is pretty glaring. That 5:1 ratio still stands in both those. I’m not completely opposed to Seth Smith, just giving up too much for him.
"First!"...Who gives a damn if you are first
Right… he’s not the one you build a trade around, that’s for sure.
"Sir Stealth, Stay stealth.. Your a moron" (jrod1142), 12/15/11 (the epic FWren Fortitude FanPost)
"Now if you somehow talked the Diamondbacks into throwing in Stephen Drew in that deal [with Justin Upton]… then I’d be in the line w/ justin and whoever else w/ my knee pads on." - Klemson Krash, 12/20/2011
Fits with 2-4 years ago Caveman
2012 Caveman? Doubtful. He’s not the lefty killer he once was anymore.
http://sportsandgrits.com/
SINGLES POWER!
It was a particularly small egg...thats why I asked.
by thenightstallion on Dec 30, 2011 12:03 AM EST up reply actions
This just screams SSS. I’m not saying that there isnt anything to say that this trend might be somewhat valid, but assuming the power drop-off is as severe as the 2011 stats indicate is problematic for those who analyze the more statistical aspects of the game.
Sgt.: Pointed stick? Oh, oh, oh. We want to learn how to defend ourselves against pointed sticks, do we? Getting all high and mighty, eh? Fresh fruit not good enough for you eh? Well I'll tell you something my lad. When you're walking home tonight and some great homicidal maniac comes after you with a bunch of loganberries, don't come crying to me! Now, the passion fruit.
except as a platoon player
SSS has always been an issue analyzing his numbers.
http://sportsandgrits.com/
Hard to believe
According to MLBTR, Braves biggest monetary outlay so far this off season is picking up Hinske’s $1.5M option. I guess Lowe’s $10M doesn’t count.
"First!"...Who gives a damn if you are first
I think they mean "biggest monetary outlay to players on the Braves team"
Paying players to play for someone else doesn’t count.
question
Is it realistic to think we could sign David Wright next offseason to replace chip and possibly bring back Bourn? or sign Victorino to play CF? or could we sign Quentin to play LF? or possibly sign all 3 then we would be just flat out nasty
Seems pretty unrealistic
Simply because Wren isn’t big on signing free agents.
"First!"...Who gives a damn if you are first
And it mostly depends on how guys like Salcedo, Terdoslavich, and Simmons progress next season.
If we can land [Stephen Drew], I will give FW a bj.
~justincredubil02
by king of games on Dec 28, 2011 12:25 PM EST up reply actions
Absolutely
Wren isn’t going to block a progressing prospect with a high priced free agent.
"First!"...Who gives a damn if you are first
I’m really excited to see what Joey does this year.
by carloscollazo06 on Jan 1, 2012 11:07 PM EST up reply actions
Think about this lineup tho
1-Victorino/Bourn
2- Heyward
3- Wright
4- McCann
5- Quentin
6- Uggla
7- Freeman
8- Pastornicky
Quentin puke
Victorino puke
Hey! I’m new.
by ChopMaster on Jul 7, 2011 10:24 PM CDT (joined Jul 19, 2010)
Twitter: @biggentleben
by biggentleben on Dec 29, 2011 12:39 PM EST up reply actions
don’t want a douche like Victorino on any team I would possibly follow.
Puke, eat something quickly, puke again.
http://tarpslides-r-us.blogspot.com/
Unless we want to become one of those self-hatin’ Braves fans.
Sgt.: Pointed stick? Oh, oh, oh. We want to learn how to defend ourselves against pointed sticks, do we? Getting all high and mighty, eh? Fresh fruit not good enough for you eh? Well I'll tell you something my lad. When you're walking home tonight and some great homicidal maniac comes after you with a bunch of loganberries, don't come crying to me! Now, the passion fruit.
My idea is this:
Sign Andruw for $2mil, Jack Wilson for $1.5mil
Try to sell off Diaz if you can get over $1mil for him.
Don’t trade Prado
If JJ has to be traded for money, take the best prospect haul avaliable, we don’t need any more MLB players, so sell him for the future.
If JJ doesn’t- talk to Rockies about JJ+Hinske for Smith+Fowler. Be ready to accept no and listen to other offers. Don’t take a bad deal just to deal, you’ve got the deadline.
Fowler's
pretty close to untouchable right now. The Rockies still believe in him.
by JoelGuzman'sScout on Dec 28, 2011 2:56 PM EST up reply actions
I'm not so sure?
I really don’t get what he is trying to do in Colorado? I don’t think there offseason right now makes a whole lot of sense when you consider everything.
i believe Andruw already signed with the Yanks
Chopmaster: my link is my dad who has watched the braves since I don’t know. he’s 56.
A piece on NRI super utility man, Drew Sutton...
Sounds promising, but overly optimistic. Could be very useful off the bench if Prado is traded. Switch hitter that can play almost anywhere, with above average power and plate discipline. This year’s Ed Lucas, but with more success in the Majors.
http://tomahawktake.com/2011/11/23/drew-sutton-being-compared-to-ben-zobrist/
Just Beachy here. How 'bout you?
Utility weak at ss
I read recently as you say that he can play all if positions and corner of’s but they also mentioned that ss was his weakest positon…our greatest need it seems.
Our greatest need that isn’t really that great of a need.
If we can land [Stephen Drew], I will give FW a bj.
~justincredubil02
by king of games on Dec 29, 2011 9:51 AM EST up reply actions
SS is a real need, given the question mark that is Pastornicky. Hopefully the FO is right on Pastornicky being ready, I’m hopeful but not convinced.
We could always bring Hicks back in a pinch if he’s not ready, and we can still make a trade if needed. It’s not that significant of a need unless TP is completely awful and I really don’t see that happening. Worst case I’d say he’s an ok OBP guy with some speed at the bottom of the order.
If we can land [Stephen Drew], I will give FW a bj.
~justincredubil02
by king of games on Dec 29, 2011 10:37 AM EST up reply actions
i thought this made perfect sense
http://tomahawktake.com/2011/12/28/should-the-braves-trade-some-of-the-pitching-depth/
i think the FW has already decided that he is going to decline hudson’s contract next year.
that means the rotation could be (assuming jurrjens is traded)
hanson, minor, beachy, delgado, and teheran
if you think about it this way of course thats why he refuses to trade any of these guys
If I were a betting man, I’d bet Hudson stays a Brave. Anyone wanting otherwise might want to look at Hanson’s shoulder.
Just Beachy here. How 'bout you?
i think when you have the chance to dump a 9 million dollar contract without missing a beat
you take it
more money to the 2012 FA fund. in 2009 we rebuilt the rotation. maybe we will finally be able to rebuild the offense.
"2012 FA fund"
The Braves are a young team. I don’t see Wren going after a bunch of older players. More likely he’ll extend a few guys with the money he has coming off the books. I’m not expecting him to go on a shopping spree.
"First!"...Who gives a damn if you are first
I’d rather see that $9mil from Hudson used to sign JJ long-term. In 2 years time JJ will be more effective then Hudson anyways- I suspect he’ll start declining either this year or next year.
If Hudson will accept $2-3mil to pitch here, great, otherwise thank him, tell him that he’s still got it but we just can’t afford you with all these youngsters, which him the best, and give him a day when he comes back into town. Give him a classy exit which he deserves.
Except Huddy is worth way more than $9mil. Unless he greatly declines this year, they’re not going to drop him.
If we can land [Stephen Drew], I will give FW a bj.
~justincredubil02
by king of games on Dec 29, 2011 9:53 AM EST up reply actions
Ok, he’s worth $10mil maybe, and you’re paying him $9
Our young-uns will be worth about $5-8mil, and you’re paying them 400k
With a budget, you gotta take that into consideration. Hudson may be worth that much, but he wouldn’t be worth that to us, especially given the opportunity cost of losing JJ, who can be every bit the staff veteran Huddy was for several more years.
Fangraphs shows him as being worth $11MM and $17MM the last two seasons respectively. Not to mention he’s the unquestioned leader of the rotation.That’s not a guy you let walk when his salary is more than reasonable and he’s still producing.
If we can land [Stephen Drew], I will give FW a bj.
~justincredubil02
by king of games on Dec 29, 2011 10:41 AM EST up reply actions
And if you extrapolate his injured 2009 season he was worth another $11MM, and that was literally coming right off of TJS.
If we can land [Stephen Drew], I will give FW a bj.
~justincredubil02
by king of games on Dec 29, 2011 10:46 AM EST up reply actions
It is if your other guys are more valuable. I’m not denying his value, I’m just saying that his future value is going to only be 6th best among our current starters at best.
I’d rather not have an all under-25 rotation personally. Especially when our next oldest/best pitcher has injury concerns.
If we can land [Stephen Drew], I will give FW a bj.
~justincredubil02
by king of games on Dec 29, 2011 1:11 PM EST up reply actions
This assumes that value is based purely on a production metric. And anyone who has ever seen/participated in a team sport knows this is an oversimplification.
Sgt.: Pointed stick? Oh, oh, oh. We want to learn how to defend ourselves against pointed sticks, do we? Getting all high and mighty, eh? Fresh fruit not good enough for you eh? Well I'll tell you something my lad. When you're walking home tonight and some great homicidal maniac comes after you with a bunch of loganberries, don't come crying to me! Now, the passion fruit.
As an edit: I know that this might be all you were talking about in the first place, but the point stands. Hudson’s value is not PURELY based on production. And even if you make a strong argument that it should be based purely on his value to the 2012 team, it is far from granted that this is the best groundwork for a team. While Billy Bean might (and did) agree, think about the last two years.
Even if you know that Huddy isn’t your best statistical pitcher, if you had the choice, wouldn’t you have rather maximized his starts. Maybe I’m alone in that one. But Huddy, to a certain and most certainly invaluable point, represents the value of the intangibles. To compare his salary to his WAR or prospective value only takes a portion (an admittedly important one) into consideration, but that is still not all of the equation.
Sgt.: Pointed stick? Oh, oh, oh. We want to learn how to defend ourselves against pointed sticks, do we? Getting all high and mighty, eh? Fresh fruit not good enough for you eh? Well I'll tell you something my lad. When you're walking home tonight and some great homicidal maniac comes after you with a bunch of loganberries, don't come crying to me! Now, the passion fruit.
agreed, that hitch in tommy's delivery really worries me.
"Don't tell me about the pain, just bring me the baby" Cam Newton
by braves&panthers4ever on Dec 29, 2011 11:50 PM EST via Android app up reply actions
Hudson
Unless he sucks or is hurt this year, there is no way they decline Hudson’s option. There are 20+ teams that would love to have Hudson next year on a 1yr $9mil commitment. If you think he’s the 6th best pitcher on the staff you trade him after exercising the option. Worst case scenario is Jesse Chavez, and you’re no worse off than if you just declined the option and paid the buyout. Best case, you get a piece you can use.
Can’t trade him, 10/5 rights.
If we can land [Stephen Drew], I will give FW a bj.
~justincredubil02
by king of games on Jan 10, 2012 12:14 PM EST up reply actions
Huddy won’t. He has no reason to.
If we can land [Stephen Drew], I will give FW a bj.
~justincredubil02
by king of games on Jan 10, 2012 1:24 PM EST up reply actions
He has no reason to, right now
say next year comes, we exercise the option, and let him negotiate and extension to a trade partner? He’d have a reason to then.
Still, I don’t expect him to end his career anywhere other than Atlanta. And personally I think our 2013 rotation is Hudson, Teheran, Minor, with 2 of the 4 getting dealt from Beachy, Hanson, JJ, and Delgado.
http://sportsandgrits.com/
Pretty sure he'd rather retire than play somewhere else.
And that’s never really been the Braves way of doing things.
If we can land [Stephen Drew], I will give FW a bj.
~justincredubil02
by king of games on Jan 10, 2012 2:20 PM EST up reply actions
He took a well below market value deal to stay here, because he likes the city, the team, and didn’t want to move his family.
Q: If not us, who? If not now, when? A: The Batman. And "when you least expect it."
Agreed, that's why it's unlikely at best
but if after the season, the Braves go to him and say, we’re not going to keep you after this option year, and he wants to play another 3-5, he might be willing to, since he’ll have to move on anyway, accept a trade to a team that will guarantee him a good deal for those 3-5 years.
http://sportsandgrits.com/
i really hope we don't extend bourn
i would rather get the draft pick and sign victorino
i think there is a 45% chance wright will be a brave next year
A bird in the hand...
If he can get Bourn extended now, I’d definately do it. One of the best lead off guys in the business and you never know what you’ll be able to accomplish next year.
bourn had a great year
but he is still a career .271 hitter
you never know what will happen this or the coming years with him
This is true. As much as people were talking about how unsustainable Pence’s numbers were, Bourn can be criticized similarly.
Sgt.: Pointed stick? Oh, oh, oh. We want to learn how to defend ourselves against pointed sticks, do we? Getting all high and mighty, eh? Fresh fruit not good enough for you eh? Well I'll tell you something my lad. When you're walking home tonight and some great homicidal maniac comes after you with a bunch of loganberries, don't come crying to me! Now, the passion fruit.
I think the Braves would balk at that (somewhat reasonable figure) to be honest. And this is for one of the top 5 players in a rather sparse position.
Sgt.: Pointed stick? Oh, oh, oh. We want to learn how to defend ourselves against pointed sticks, do we? Getting all high and mighty, eh? Fresh fruit not good enough for you eh? Well I'll tell you something my lad. When you're walking home tonight and some great homicidal maniac comes after you with a bunch of loganberries, don't come crying to me! Now, the passion fruit.
bourn had a great year
but he is still a career .271 hitter
you never know what will happen this or the coming years with him
I'm still praying for Upton
Or any big splash really, but I know it’s unlikely. Kept telling myself they’d eventually make a big deal, but it doesn’t look like it now.
A’s just got Reddick+ for Bailey. I gotta think Jurrjens has more value than Bailey. I’d prefer a RH LF with power than a CF replacement for Bourn in all honesty though.
I don’t know what’d going to happen but I just hope they can move JJ
Official Champion on the 2011 Talking Chop Fantasy Football League.
About Jurrjens...
JonHeymanCBS Jon Heyman
#redsox are not in on jurrjens. players for jair include orioles, blue jays, rockies and tigers
and
The Red Sox are now shooting for a starter, tweets Jon Heyman of CBSSports.com. Heyman lists Hiroki Kuroda, Matt Garza, Roy Oswalt, Joe Saunders and Edwin Jackson as possibilities.
Red Sox now have their new closer in Andrew Bailey… but apparently either don’t like JJ or don’t think there’s a match of talent coming back the other way… or maybe Wren’s playing hardball to get the kind of haul everyone else is getting for starting pitching this winter (and the Sox have given it all away now).
So of the teams Heyman lists, who is a fit?
Rockies: we’ve blogged on this one until the keys fall off the keyboard, so I’m not even gonna discuss this one.
Orioles: pretty close to the same volume of words here as with the Rockies… obviously we want Adam Jones. Obviously the Orioles think of him as least as highly as we do of Heyward. It would really take some guts from Dan Duquette to part with him… though it’s probably the right move – for them. We might actually regret such a deal in the long run, given his Francoeuresque hitting and non-Francoeuresque fielding.
Blue Jays. Colby Rasmus. Of course, I think of him as Jordan Schafer with more raw talent, but unless we can raid their (very deep, very well-stocked) vault, he’s the one. These guys might be the best fit – simply because they have a ton more high-grade prospects for a lot of different positions
Tigers. This would be the ironic trade… but can we get Castellanos (3B) from them, plus a couple other pieces?? Oddly enough, they have a catching prospect named “McCann”.
"Sir Stealth, Stay stealth.. Your a moron" (jrod1142), 12/15/11 (the epic FWren Fortitude FanPost)
"Now if you somehow talked the Diamondbacks into throwing in Stephen Drew in that deal [with Justin Upton]… then I’d be in the line w/ justin and whoever else w/ my knee pads on." - Klemson Krash, 12/20/2011
Pirates system doesn’t match up very well with our current needs. That being said, a blocked asset is still an asset.
If we can land [Stephen Drew], I will give FW a bj.
~justincredubil02
by king of games on Dec 29, 2011 1:12 PM EST up reply actions
Here is how I would optimize these rumored Trade Partners
Trade Prado and Hoover to the White Sox for Quentin, Beckham, and Lillibridge.
Trade Jurrjens to the Blue Jays for Snider and Marisnick.
Snider and Marisnick spend then year in the minors, Quentin takes over in left, Beckham and Lillibridge solidify the by giving us strong backups at SS, 3b, 2b, and CF.
I HATE Quentin, and I would even sign off on that White Sox deal as it is ridiculously imbalanced. The White Sox, however, would hang up the phone, laugh, and then call FW up just to hang up on him again. Yet, the Blue Jays deal is even MORE improbable.
Hey! I’m new.
by ChopMaster on Jul 7, 2011 10:24 PM CDT (joined Jul 19, 2010)
Twitter: @biggentleben
by biggentleben on Dec 30, 2011 9:29 PM EST up reply actions
Fortunately, we can now stop all speculation about getting Quentin...
The Padres have acquired Carlos Quentin from the White Sox for Simon Castro and Pedro Hernandez, the teams announced.
(MLBTR)
"Sir Stealth, Stay stealth.. Your a moron" (jrod1142), 12/15/11 (the epic FWren Fortitude FanPost)
"Now if you somehow talked the Diamondbacks into throwing in Stephen Drew in that deal [with Justin Upton]… then I’d be in the line w/ justin and whoever else w/ my knee pads on." - Klemson Krash, 12/20/2011
Wow, looks like a total salary dump on the part of the WSox… not a big return at all.
"Sir Stealth, Stay stealth.. Your a moron" (jrod1142), 12/15/11 (the epic FWren Fortitude FanPost)
"Now if you somehow talked the Diamondbacks into throwing in Stephen Drew in that deal [with Justin Upton]… then I’d be in the line w/ justin and whoever else w/ my knee pads on." - Klemson Krash, 12/20/2011
.....
If we can land [Stephen Drew], I will give FW a bj.
~justincredubil02
by king of games on Jan 2, 2012 9:56 AM EST up reply actions
prado/jj
please don’t trade prado who had a down year but is still one of the braves most consistant offensive and defensive players. JJ is consistantly near the top of the league in pitching until he breaks down, maybe perhaps some off season conditioning is in order. send him to Germany for some platlet injections on his knee with A-Rod. McCan has to get some more time off or he will continue to break down at yrs end and I would give Chipper at least 2 days 2 week off to keep him productive. let me know what you think,
Danks is now off the market
5 yr/$65m extension.
"Sir Stealth, Stay stealth.. Your a moron" (jrod1142), 12/15/11 (the epic FWren Fortitude FanPost)
"Now if you somehow talked the Diamondbacks into throwing in Stephen Drew in that deal [with Justin Upton]… then I’d be in the line w/ justin and whoever else w/ my knee pads on." - Klemson Krash, 12/20/2011
Braves, Rays, and Mets all in on Theriot.
At this point I’d be happy with just about any pickup.
If we can land [Stephen Drew], I will give FW a bj.
~justincredubil02
That’s what has been most confusing to me this offseason. I realize there are pros and cons to the Jurrjens/Prado talks. But still, we have several open spots on the 40 man and an absolute need to have another utility infielder on the roster. Several free agents that fit the bill have already come off the board.
I guess the Braves are either (1) so cash strapped they have to wait for the price of any free agent to fall, or (2) Wren is biding his time to make deals later in the offseason. In any event, I certainly hope he isn’t overplaying his hand.
Its not confusing – at least the way I perceive it, which of course could be flat wrong:
There are various and assorted internal or quasi-internal options for backing up SS,3B, 2B – Sutton, the Wilsons, Hicks, etc. – and over-paying for a free agent there would only exasperate our problem (low financial reserves) and further limit whatever deal-making capacity might exist as to the bigger need, another OF bat.
The unfortunate reality is the Braves are so cash-strapped that before Wren could address the major need for another OF bat, he really had to (1) dump whatever portion of Lowe’s salary could be dumped and (2) move one or both of our mid-range arbitration cases (Prado and/or JJ). Once other GMs figured out that moving Prado and/or JJ was actually a necessary precursor to any move to address our bigger need, their trade value became very depressed. So, Wren found himself stuck with no good options other than to wait out his potential trading traders in order to up the ante of what he can get back. Or if not, stand pat and continue to wait … by ST or the mid-season deadline, teams’ situations and the trading market will be different.
that all sounds right to me
and as it seems, there are still some SS utility guys that are good options. Theriot isn’t any worse than any of the other SSs we have been looking at.
Red Sox showing some interest in JJ.
What about JJ for Scutaro and cash/middling prospect?
If we can land [Stephen Drew], I will give FW a bj.
~justincredubil02
If only they still had Lowrie
JJ for Lowrie and a B prospect sounds perfect.
http://sportsandgrits.com/
by Mr. Sanchez on Dec 30, 2011 12:04 PM EST up reply actions
I hate you.
In the body of other posts, I am often admittedly high and tend to not want to edit a lot.
by willlinn on Dec 2, 2011 12:01 PM PST
if Wren gets Arenado from Colorado, I’ll give him a BJ.
by Scott Coleman on Dec 19, 2011 9:45 PM PST
by Klemson Krash on Jan 3, 2012 10:09 AM EST up reply actions
Honestly Krash,...
wouldn’t Lowrie look great in a Braves uniform. He’s cheap, so price isn’t a problem. He can play 3B, and we can easily afford what the Red Sox Astros want for him.
http://sportsandgrits.com/
should say he can play 3B and SS
Frank Wren really needs to figure out what it’d cost to make this guy a Brave. Why am I the only one suggesting this?
http://sportsandgrits.com/
by Mr. Sanchez on Jan 3, 2012 12:15 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I really hate you.
In the body of other posts, I am often admittedly high and tend to not want to edit a lot.
by willlinn on Dec 2, 2011 12:01 PM PST
if Wren gets Arenado from Colorado, I’ll give him a BJ.
by Scott Coleman on Dec 19, 2011 9:45 PM PST
by Klemson Krash on Jan 9, 2012 11:57 AM EST up reply actions
Another one bites the dust
Andruw just signed back to the Yankees for 1 year at 2M and 1.4 in incentives . I would have loved to had him back in Atlanta . Oh well .
That’s exactly the problem—we already have Diaz and will be paying him regardless. It wouldn’t make sense to pay another guy the same amount plus the possibility for another million-and-a-half more to do the same thing, just slightly better. The Braves can’t afford to spend $3.5 million to add a 6th outfielder to the roster, and that trade for Diaz is looking worse and worse every day.
6th outfielder ?
Andruw would immediately take over the LF spot . Prado would be taking over the super utility role and still be getting 300+ AB’s for the year giving Chipper , Uggla , Andruw , and maybe even Freeman some rest and days off . I think Andruw could play 125 games in LF and play decent defense and put up a slash line of .250/.340/.460 with 15-20 HR’s .
Andruw is not capable of being a starting outfielder and has not been for years. He’s reached a point in his career at which he can no longer hit right-handed pitching in any capacity. There’s a reason he only had 222 PA’s last year—you want to know why? He hit .172 off of RH pitchers, which is a huge problem when around 80% of pitching in the league is right handed. Right now, at the very best, he would be a bench option against tough lefties, nothing more. Hinske would make more starts in LF than Andruw would. I suppose he’s better than Diaz, which would actually make him the 5th outfielder, but none of this really matters since he already signed with the Yankees.
Andruw is so much better than Hinske its laughable
Freeman isn’t on Heyward’s level in terms of tools, skills, or baseball IQ–but it’s fair to say Freeman has failed to meet the modest expectations in place for him - Capitol Avenue Club (May 28th, 2011)
Hinske last 3 seasons: 105 OPS+
Andruw last 3 seasons: 111 OPS+
I don’t really see a “laughable” difference unless you look only at last year and assume that’s Hinske’s true talent despite a 109 OPS+ over the 3 seasons before. But that doesn’t even matter because I never said that, and that’s not the point I was making. My point is that Andruw will only see 200-250 PA’s because he’s basically limited to hitting only against LH pitchers, and the Braves don’t have $2.0-3.5 million to spare on an outfielder who will see only the 5th most playing time if used properly.
Andruw 2010 – 124 wRC
Andruw 2011 – 131 wRC
Hinske 2010 – 111 wRC
Hinske 2011 – 97 wRC
Plus Andruw plays plus defense in the corners and is still passable in center in a crunch.
Yes, its laughable.
Freeman isn’t on Heyward’s level in terms of tools, skills, or baseball IQ–but it’s fair to say Freeman has failed to meet the modest expectations in place for him - Capitol Avenue Club (May 28th, 2011)
By all means,
continue arguing something that has absolutely no bearing on the issue at hand. Andruw would not be replacing Hinske even if he had signed with the Braves, so it really doesn’t matter how much better Andruw is. If it makes you feel better, I’ll say it myself: Andruw Jones is a better player than Eric Hinske….if…his splits are utilized properly. Now, does that change anything? Not in the slightest. Hinske would still see more playing time simply because he hits right-handed pitchers much better, which would make Andruw the 5th outfielder.
Hinske would still see more playing time simply because he hits right-handed pitchers much better
Andruw’s OPS vs. RHP the past 3 seasons. .709, .789, 793
Hinske’s OPS vs. RHP the past 3 seasons, .754, .753, .778
Freeman isn’t on Heyward’s level in terms of tools, skills, or baseball IQ–but it’s fair to say Freeman has failed to meet the modest expectations in place for him - Capitol Avenue Club (May 28th, 2011)
Those numbers for Andruw are elevated because of the fact that the few RH pitchers he’s allowed to see typically are relief pitchers that are bad enough that it isn’t worth wasting a substitution to take switch him out. And, did you take a look at his K-rates? They’re hideous, even against the junk of the league. There is no way he would be able to sustain an OPS above .700 if given regular, unprotected at-bats against right handed pitchers.
by swainzy on Jan 2, 2012 9:14 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
No way other than the fact that he’s hit well over .700 against RHP for his entire career? Gotcha.
Freeman isn’t on Heyward’s level in terms of tools, skills, or baseball IQ–but it’s fair to say Freeman has failed to meet the modest expectations in place for him - Capitol Avenue Club (May 28th, 2011)
Its foolish to think he’s not the hitter he’s been the past 3 seasons as well (.OPS well over .800, RHP OPS over .750). Its not like he has suddenly forgotten how to hit righties, he’s just been playing in stacked outfields who predominantly need him to him the lefties he crushes best. There’s no way in hell he suddenly becomes a .680 OPS hitter against righties if given a few more at bats. To brush off his success as “hits against garbage releivers” is hilarious. Most relievers have better stuff than the starters. (Venters, Kimbrel, EOF, etc).
Freeman isn’t on Heyward’s level in terms of tools, skills, or baseball IQ–but it’s fair to say Freeman has failed to meet the modest expectations in place for him - Capitol Avenue Club (May 28th, 2011)
Where did I say that relief pitchers are worse than starting pitchers? I said the few RH relief pitchers that he’s seen are the lower-tiered ones that aren’t worth burning an extra bench spot for. If a particularly tough RH pitcher was brought into the game, a left-handed hitter would be brought in to replace Andruw. It’s the same deal with Hinske—we all know that he’s generally terrible against lefties (.672 career OPS against), but now that he’s primarily a bench player, his stats against LH pitchers the last few years in the PA’s that he’s gotten actually appear very good. Does that mean he’s suddenly figured out how to hit hit lefties after 10 years of struggling? Not really—it’s simply because he never has to face tough pitchers from that side now that he’s a platoon/ bench-player. In any case, Andruw has a K-rate of almost 30% against RH pitchers the last 3 seasons. That is not a good sign for sustained success.
these NIR posts
Makes me feel like our offseason is complete.
by drumzalicious on Dec 30, 2011 8:54 PM EST via mobile reply actions
I doubt it. This offseason seems to have moved a good deal slower than those in years past. Here we are nearly January and there are still some very big names sitting out in free agency. One never knows.
That’s just supply and demand from teams that can afford those players
by drumzalicious on Dec 31, 2011 12:28 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
How's this for out of the Box thinking...
JJ to the O’s for Robert Anidno, Xavier Avery and Josh Bell or Matt Angle.
Blast away, but it could fill some needs.
http://tarpslides-r-us.blogspot.com/
Why?
I think the majority of trades that have been proposed for Jurrjens have been unrealistic or don’t really fill a need. Andino is that typical SS backup that Wren has been waiting on, and Avery gives a young CF option that is very similar to Broun in a lot of ways.
http://tarpslides-r-us.blogspot.com/
Wren knows what he’s doing. That package is crap, a backup SS, a C prospect and a guy who has done much so far in the ML and looks like a bust.
I agree he knows what he’s doing. But I think your undervaluing Avery and overvaluing JJ, no problem with a difference of opinion but I’d rather you say your problem with it instead if saying just stop.
by mwhite on Dec 31, 2011 8:54 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
I think he was traded
for 2 prospects that weren’t ranked even in the top 50 and not ranked in the top 15-20 in the Padres organization . We could have thrown Diaz and a couple of useless prospects at them and they probably would have accepted .
We didn't have the money to spend
Even if they took Diaz, we don’t have $5 million left in the budget. With teams (like Rockies and Red Sox) not showing much interest in JJ, I think we already have the roster we are taking to spring training. We’ll wait until the trade deadline and sell to the highest bidder.
The Padres have money to spend this offseason
I think if you offer the right deal for Quentin that they may throw what is needed to make him affordable to us . And I could be wrong , but I was under the assumption that we had a little under $10 M to spend after all the arbitration raises .
Nope. According to DOB its more like 2-3 if that
by drumzalicious on Jan 1, 2012 1:14 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
New train of thought
Feel free to put me in my place . I know I’m just asking for it after saying that , but . With Quentin being traded to the Padres , this now has made Kyle Blanks expendable according to some Padres sources . Young OFer with some power who would probably benefit being away from Petco . Any takers ?
I just don’t think he’s the type of guy we need. He doesn’t hit for a good average of play a good left field. He’s got power, but that’s about it….. I hope to Jesus that our big acquisition this offseason isn’t Kyle Blanks
You'd think I was Travis Tritt struttin my FINE ASS on down to Florida
He has actually hit rather well
in the minors at A , AA , and AAA level and has never really had much playing time at the ML level . It may not take a whole lot to get him and he may at least be worth a shot to look at . I would think his numbers would likely improve a bit with extended playing time . It’s a small sample size at the ML level , but he does seem to have a little trouble hitting lefties for some reason .
What do you guys think about Theriot?
would you be happy with him as our middle infield bench guy or no?
by carloscollazo06 on Jan 1, 2012 11:15 PM EST reply actions
Absolutely,
at the right price. I have confidence in Pastornicky, but it’s always nice to have a fall-back in case he finds himself outmatched by major league pitching. I definitely wouldn’t want Theriot to be starting for too long, but it would be useful to have him as a two or three month stop-gap if Pastornicky needs more seasoning, or just as the primary infield bench-option if TP proves ready.
I think I’d feel better if Hubbard were still on the staff and could school him on his fielding.
"Sir Stealth, Stay stealth.. Your a moron" (jrod1142), 12/15/11 (the epic FWren Fortitude FanPost)
"Now if you somehow talked the Diamondbacks into throwing in Stephen Drew in that deal [with Justin Upton]… then I’d be in the line w/ justin and whoever else w/ my knee pads on." - Klemson Krash, 12/20/2011
You know its been a boring offseason when...
I get super excited about the possibility of signing Ryan Theriot as our backup SS.
what if
they are shopping JJ because they want to extend him, and by shopping him under their control, under these conditions, they have a better position to get him for less money in deals against boras. Radical but i wonder everything
Thats interesting .
Kinda putting him out there to make Boras come to terms with the fact that he would have to settle for less in a deal with another team by realizing that JJ’s stock is low and other teams have concerns . That makes sense for the Braves if they are considering an extension for him .
How much would you pay for JJ if you could sign him long term?
I think he’s worth less per year then Huddy’s option (keeping JJ means losing Hudson I think- though I think JJ > Hudson after next 3-4 years given their ages)
I think 4/30 is reasonable, or 5/35.
if we could sign him for that we should
Boras wants him to have a big year and try to get him a 10+ a season contract by saying he is the ’09 first half ’11 team and that ’10 and second half of ’11 was injury and the injuries are not long term. He is a rising ace with incredibly good results at a really young age and some little injuries that wont bother him long term.
How would offering for trade lead to him taking a lesser price...
when Boras could then ask around to see what others would give him long term?
http://sportsandgrits.com/
because
What the Braves are finding is that he is not being received as an ace with a 2.6 era in ‘09 and the lowest in the first half of ’11. That’s how Boras would sell him to other teams and barter with the braves. The reason I brought it up, is because Wren may have diffused that by pre-proving wrong what Boras would later argue. The value of doing this would only be to sign him back their selves. Just an open logical possibility based on the empirical evidence, not me saying its whats going on.
I don't follow that logic
his numbers are what they are, and that matters when he’s discussing arbitration. But no one ever thought he’d be “received as an ace”. Because he’s not an ace, and Boras wouldn’t sell him as a true #1 unless a team sucks. He’s a good front of the rotation arm with health issues. His price in a long term deal would be low right now because of injury, and it has nothing to do with whether we are looking to trade him or not. I agree, the trade discussion is financially based, but it’s financial in the sense that we have Teheran and Delgado capable of stepping in to his rotation slot for 1/10 the price. There is no extension discussion right now, as there shouldn’t be with his health issues lingering.
http://sportsandgrits.com/
I don't think Boras is that fair
and I’m not talking about arbitration, but an extension.
If JJ has a healthy season with a sub 3.3 ERA he won’t only be sold as an ace, but as a young ace with a huge future. Disagree if you want, but that’s my expectation. Not only that, but it is reasonable! His rookie year he won 13 games and was the ace of a decimated staff. His next season he posted a 2.6 ERA. During his only other healthy stretch he lead the league in ERA and was named an allstar. That has ace on the rise written all over it, and as such a young player, a healthy season should have other teams foaming over the possibility of bringing him over long term. On the other hand, if he puts up a sub 3.3 season and is healthy, we SHOULD NOT LET HIM GO.
If, after a good year
does not = now. We are shopping him now, not after a healthy 2012 with All Star #s.
http://sportsandgrits.com/
Right
I am suggesting something sharky and manipulative…not playing nice when playing w boras…manipulating his perceived value by getting an evaluation now in the event we want to extend him mid season at his current cost, before he finishes the season healthy and his value sky rockets..
EOF interview now on XM Radio
1. Just starting to get ready for February. Feels real good.
2. Biggest pressure last year was pitching to Victorino with runners on, knowing he had a chance to keep the ERA under 1.0 at the end of the year. His finished 0.98.
3. Yeah, we definitely pay attention to trade rumors and stuff – wanna know what the team is going to look like.
4. Went to Vegas for a UFC fight last week with the catchers (Heap and Ross). Best friends on the team. Wives bought the trip for Christmas.
5. Philosophy about getting up and getting into games with Atlanta? He turned the question around: Know yourself – take responsibility to be ready if called upon. He thinks it’s more then pitcher’s responsibility to be ready… not so much overuse issues.
6. How did you get so good when coming to Atlanta? My relationship with McCann and Ross – they tell me what I need to know… great communications with them. Gave an example of warming up in Seattle and Ross telling him his slider sucked after he admitted nerves in coming back to his former team. Roger is good, Bobby Cox put me in a position to succeed, built confidence. I think I heard that Fredi has team’s confidence.
7. Discussion about the Jeff Porter tragedy.
8. Will go a little later to Orlando… take it a little slower so he doesn’t get so hyped up waiting on stuff to start.
9. Team guys sitting around talking (probably he, heap, and Ross again): are we gonna do anything for the offense? ‘Well, if so what do we change??’ (sounds vaguely familiar). Expecting a full year w/Bourn, bounce back from slimmer Heyward, Prado, no soph slump from Freddie, etc.
"Sir Stealth, Stay stealth.. Your a moron" (jrod1142), 12/15/11 (the epic FWren Fortitude FanPost)
Take special note of #6 — he didn’t change anything, but the guys around him built his confidence, and turned his career around from a waiver wire pickup to a stud situational reliever.
"Sir Stealth, Stay stealth.. Your a moron" (jrod1142), 12/15/11 (the epic FWren Fortitude FanPost)
that alone
makes me want to extend Ross until he retires.
by drumzalicious on Jan 3, 2012 8:42 PM EST up reply actions
I Got It!
Alex Rodriguez circa 2001 to play SS for the Braves in 2012:
http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/r/rodrial01.shtml
All that’s needed is a time machine and a bottle of chloroform. Kidnap him as a free agent and transport his 25 year old self to play SS. He has a great glove and a world class bat. We can assume the 52 homes wouldn’t exactly carry over to Turner Field seeing how Arlington is a more hitter friendly park, but he did hit exactly half of his 2001 home runs on the road. Stat Corner states that there should be about a 20% difference in home runs between the two parks for right handed batters (It’s amazing what a relatively small change in heat, humidity, and outfield fence layout can do). So let’s assume his 52 home runs become some where between 42 and 45 — we can live with that. A once in a generation talent who leads the league in home runs AND plays the toughest defensive position on the diamond… get on it Frank Wren.
by another simpsons avatar on Jan 3, 2012 4:31 PM EST reply actions
Um
Huh?
Hey! I’m new.
by ChopMaster on Jul 7, 2011 10:24 PM CDT (joined Jul 19, 2010)
Twitter: @biggentleben
Indeed.
If we can land [Stephen Drew], I will give FW a bj.
~justincredubil02
by king of games on Jan 4, 2012 10:04 AM EST up reply actions
Braves just won the NL East for 2012...
…because the LOL Marlins just acquired Zambrano!
"Sir Stealth, Stay stealth.. Your a moron" (jrod1142), 12/15/11 (the epic FWren Fortitude FanPost)
The Marlins fans are all
he is gonna be great cause Ozzie is gonna keep him in check , blah blah blah . They gave up Volstad who wasn’t any better . But neither team won on the deal unless you want to call the 2.5M saved for the Cubs trading him a win .
First let me say: I don't expect this, and likely don't want it...
…but with that as an intro, there’s some truly funky murmurs going on in the Braves/Orioles world.
1. With the acquisition of Jai Miller, the Orioles depth chart now shows four guys having their position listed as ‘CF’.
2. Two almost simultaneous/semi-related tweets this morning raised an eyebrow:
JonHeymanCBS Jon Heyman
miguel tejada is training in miami w/ legendary workout guru pete bommarito. looking for comeback. word is, he looks great
smileysanz smiley sanchez
@ajcsportseditor @ajcbraves @Brava10 is my country, Dom Rep some sources say that the Braves are making an offer to Miguel tejada! Is True?
3. Okay… the Orioles now have guys in place that could replace Adam Jones. Either he – or one of their OF prospects - could reasonably be shipped off. Their needs are (a) Pitching; (b) Second base; ( c ) Lead-off OBP guy.
4. The Tejada thing is bizarre, but might make some sense IF the Braves and Orioles are cooking up something to ship Pastornicky north to play second base for the O’s. Such a move could fill two different needs for them. It also makes sense for Tyler, as we have a lot of people (me included) thinking that this is the better position for him anyway.
5. Robert Andino could be one to come back in such a deal – a surplus OFer who has also played quite a bit of both 3B and SS (with decent fielding stats). Yeah, we’d rather have JJ Hardy, but let’s be reasonable.
6. The final question would obviously be how JJ and Adam Jones are moved… and with which other pieces. Note that this maneuvering would leave Prado without a place to play — except that a deal to send him to the Rockies for good prospects alone (and no Seth Smith) would now make a lot more sense.
I raised the idea of the Orioles keeping Jones and moving prospects in #3… that would change the complexion of this… but the persistence of the rumor that the Braves are targeting Jones is more plausible. Again, I am sorta doing a CSI thing here… not proposing a trade, but rather trying to decipher the meaning of poor intel in the absence of real data.
"Sir Stealth, Stay stealth.. Your a moron" (jrod1142), 12/15/11 (the epic FWren Fortitude FanPost)
(no, I will not share what I’m smoking)
"Sir Stealth, Stay stealth.. Your a moron" (jrod1142), 12/15/11 (the epic FWren Fortitude FanPost)
Dammit. You should have posted earlier. I’m already back from the ATM.
Sgt.: Pointed stick? Oh, oh, oh. We want to learn how to defend ourselves against pointed sticks, do we? Getting all high and mighty, eh? Fresh fruit not good enough for you eh? Well I'll tell you something my lad. When you're walking home tonight and some great homicidal maniac comes after you with a bunch of loganberries, don't come crying to me! Now, the passion fruit.
Another tweet Re: Tejada
smileysanz smiley sanchez
Tejada is playing here in DR and he look out of time and without power @sshardison @ajcsportseditor @ajcbraves @Brava10
Okay, who’s lying ? This guy or Jon Heyman (who claims Miguel is in Miami and “looks great”).
He’ll be 38 this year…. um, at least.
"Sir Stealth, Stay stealth.. Your a moron" (jrod1142), 12/15/11 (the epic FWren Fortitude FanPost)
Interesting.
If we can land [Stephen Drew], I will give FW a bj.
~justincredubil02
by king of games on Jan 5, 2012 2:03 PM EST up reply actions
Guys like that don’t forget how to hit. He’s not an everyday player, but I’d give him a bat before Conrad.
What your muscles didn’t tell the fat when it was tagged in?
Sgt.: Pointed stick? Oh, oh, oh. We want to learn how to defend ourselves against pointed sticks, do we? Getting all high and mighty, eh? Fresh fruit not good enough for you eh? Well I'll tell you something my lad. When you're walking home tonight and some great homicidal maniac comes after you with a bunch of loganberries, don't come crying to me! Now, the passion fruit.
And just when you thought it had ended.......
This just in on MLBTradeRumors.com
Braves GM Frank Wren told MLB.com’s Mark Bowman that he feels both Jair Jurrjens and Martin Prado will be with the team at the start of Spring Training. They still have interest in Adam Jones and could continue to pursue the outfielder if the Orioles lower their demands.
Translation:
“Here’s this one thing. But then here is another.”
Sgt.: Pointed stick? Oh, oh, oh. We want to learn how to defend ourselves against pointed sticks, do we? Getting all high and mighty, eh? Fresh fruit not good enough for you eh? Well I'll tell you something my lad. When you're walking home tonight and some great homicidal maniac comes after you with a bunch of loganberries, don't come crying to me! Now, the passion fruit.
Yes, that's what they SAID he wrote, but...
…if you check the article, I believe Bowman was referring to an interview with Wren from back in November. I tweeted Bowman in the hopes of confirming this view, but I really think that there’s no new info there.
"Sir Stealth, Stay stealth.. Your a moron" (jrod1142), 12/15/11 (the epic FWren Fortitude FanPost)
All that’s directly attributed to Wren in the article is that he says he can see Prado/JJ being on the team next year.
The rest of it could just as easily be Bowman doing the usual fill in the blanks Re: Jones.
Q: If not us, who? If not now, when? A: The Batman. And "when you least expect it."
Or it could be that
there will be no trade of Prado/JJ to the O’s and Wren might be putting a deal together with prospects only .
It could be, doesn’t change that the line about Prado and JJ being on the team is the only part of the article directly attributed to Wren.
Q: If not us, who? If not now, when? A: The Batman. And "when you least expect it."
It’s also certainly true that Wren has a history of not showing his hand. One recent exception: announcing that Lowe would not be in the 2012 starting rotation… that was a surprise.
"Sir Stealth, Stay stealth.. Your a moron" (jrod1142), 12/15/11 (the epic FWren Fortitude FanPost)
And I think
the Uggla trade kinda came from nowhere and suprised all of us . I know it did me . Especially seeing how Prado had just came off of a great year . Just goes to show , that no matter how good WE think our beloved Braves really are , that Wren is ALWAYS looking for options to improve this team .
Surprise
I think your Uggla example is an example of not being surprised that Wren has deals we don’t know about. The surprise carpengui was talking about was that Wren actually showed his hand on Lowe this offseason instead of talking about how he will be valuable in 2012 to the Braves. He’s never come out this offseason and stated that he is looking to move either Jurrjens or Prado, just that there is interest. He’s keeping things typically close to the vest, like he did with Uggla.
Hey! I’m new.
by ChopMaster on Jul 7, 2011 10:24 PM CDT (joined Jul 19, 2010)
Twitter: @biggentleben
by biggentleben on Jan 9, 2012 12:52 AM EST up reply actions
That’s possible, I’m just saying that the way the article was summarized for that blurb is potentially misleading. It gives the impression that Wren was directly talking about a trade for Jones, when the article itself doesn’t say that.
Q: If not us, who? If not now, when? A: The Batman. And "when you least expect it."
Frank Wren:
Sgt.: Pointed stick? Oh, oh, oh. We want to learn how to defend ourselves against pointed sticks, do we? Getting all high and mighty, eh? Fresh fruit not good enough for you eh? Well I'll tell you something my lad. When you're walking home tonight and some great homicidal maniac comes after you with a bunch of loganberries, don't come crying to me! Now, the passion fruit.
The lack of action is maddening.
Every team in our division except the Mets got better. If we head into the season with our team as is I could see the Marlins or Nationals passing us.
This thinking
….is flat ludicrous. The Nationals were 8.5 games worse than the Braves, and the Marlins were 17 games worse than the Braves. The Braves got way below expectations performance from vital offensive personnel (Heyward, Prado, McCann post-August 1, Uggla first half, etc.) and removed the worst pitcher on the team while adding to an already-great bullpen simply from the deep system they have. I’d wager to say the Braves as currently constructed are a 90-95 win team. Do you really see the Marlins having added 18 games worth of talent or the Nationals adding 9 games of talent? Also, what have the Phillies done this offseason to improve, unless you consider getting still older and losing their best reliever to overpay a “proven closer” progress?
The Braves didn’t NEED to make a lot of moves because they’d built a roster to last them multiple seasons without tinkering. Why tinker just to tinker?
Hey! I’m new.
by ChopMaster on Jul 7, 2011 10:24 PM CDT (joined Jul 19, 2010)
Twitter: @biggentleben
The Marlins added a solid middle rotation starter in Buehrle and a good closer in Bell, plus they will have Johnson all year. Then they went and signed Reyes who will add to a decent offense. While they may not make up 18 games they will be right around .500 at the end of the season.
The Nationals added Gio Gonzalez and will have Strasburg all season again. I really think the Nationals could make a run at the Braves.
The Phillies were already better and really didn’t do anything to get worse. They won’t have Howard for awhile and that will hurt.
Everyone here continues to believe that Wren is doing the right thing by doing nothing. In reality this team still lacks a middle of the order bat and will be going into the season with health concerns to both Hanson and Jurrjens. It is stupid to hold onto Jurrjens when he will is getting expensive and will not repeat his 1st half performance of last year. He’s also blocking Delgado, Teheran, and Minor.
As fans we don’t know what’s been offered by other teams for him. Most of the rumors have come from other teams and then been promptly shot down by the rumor killer DOB.
We’ve got middle of the order bats in guys like Uggla, McCann, Heyward, and Chipper.
And you’re not going to get an elite hitter for JJ at this point, everyone knows that he’s an injury concern and doesn’t think he can repeat his 1st half performance.
The best MLB player return we’ve heard proposed is Adam Jones, a guy who probably isn’t a better hitter than Prado to this point (and doesn’t hit well against LHP), and the O’s want JJ, Prado, and 2 pitching prospects for him.
Q: If not us, who? If not now, when? A: The Batman. And "when you least expect it."
As was said above me, we don’t have ONE middle of the order bat, we have three to four legit middle guys. Brian McCann before he was hurt was having a season that would make even ‘roided Javy blink twice. Uggla had a very rough first half and still topped 35 homers on the season. Heck, we even got a guy who put up a 118 OPS+ that was mainly in there as a solid hitter with good defense at first. Freeman has always blown up in a second exposure to a level. He’s only 22 in 2012, and he showed at many points in the year the type of power to possibly become a 30 homer guy as well. Add in Chipper when healthy and a positive return to form of Heyward, and most teams would salivate over the offense a healthy Braves can put on the field.
What happened in September was historic for a reason. It was great players and a very productive lineup of hitters that suddenly all stopped hitting at the exact same time. It was unexplainable, and it rightfully cost the hitting coach his job. We also went through that month without 2 of the team’s top 3 starters pitching an inning. On September 1, the Braves were on a 95 win pace. It took an historic offensive collapse to miss the playoffs, let alone drop under 90 wins. This team with more depth in pitching as the solid prospects moved from knocking on the door to breaking it down. The offense has an offseason to get healthy. There’s every reason for a Braves fan to be positive about the possibility of their team as it currently stands, nevermind the ability of Wren to wrangle solid deals that could allow that pitching depth at midseason to fill any hole that may be there in the offense.
A move to make a move would be not only unwise, but flat out stupid. If fans are that fickle that not making a change to one of the better teams in baseball, both long- and short-term, upsets them, they perhaps need to find another sport to follow because I will nearly guarantee you that 29 other GMs would love to sit in Frank Wren’s shoes right now.
Hey! I’m new.
by ChopMaster on Jul 7, 2011 10:24 PM CDT (joined Jul 19, 2010)
Twitter: @biggentleben
by biggentleben on Jan 7, 2012 11:06 PM EST up reply actions
The Marlins added a solid middle rotation starter in Buehrle and a good closer in Bell, plus they will have Johnson all year. Then they went and signed Reyes who will add to a decent offense. While they may not make up 18 games they will be right around .500 at the end of the season.
Johnson has pitched “all year” only once in his career. Expecting him to do so this year is pure speculation. And they are also a powder keg locker room that may or may not explode at anytime, making these acquisitions a waste.
The Nationals added Gio Gonzalez and will have Strasburg all season again. I really think the Nationals could make a run at the Braves.
Again, expecting an injured arm to pitch “all season” when they have never shown the ability to do so is conjecture. I like the Nats, especially if Zimmerman is healthy, but you are putting the cart before the horse with their #1 starter.
The Phillies were already better and really didn’t do anything to get worse. They won’t have Howard for awhile and that will hurt.
Except have an aging, injury prone lineup get older, lose one of their best starters in Oswalt, spend big money on a[nother] possible headcase close without filling any holes on their bench, in their bullpen, or at the back of their rotation.
http://sportsandgrits.com/
You speak of injuries like the Braves are immune.
Jurrjens and Hanson were both hurt last year and Jurrjens has been hurt a lot in the past couple seasons. Hanson has a shoulder injury and those can linger. Prado hasn’t proven that he can play a full season either. Hudson is coming off back surgery and may or may not be ready for the season opener.
Right now we’re starting a SS who has never had a single big league at bat. At best Chipper can only be counted on for 120 games. McCann is a catcher and they get dinged up during the year. We have no one on our bench that I would want playing for any kind of extended amount of time.
The other thing is that everyone just assumes that Heyward will bounce back. Well what if he doesn’t. So far injury or not he hasn’t proven that he can make adjustments when the game adjusted to him.
It’s nice to believe that what the front office is doing is the right thing and honestly with what’s been rumored to be coming to Atlanta I wouldn’t trade for either.
To often fans get the rose colored glasses on and force themselves to believe that any weakness isn’t to great and that all the other teams’ weaknesses get enhanced throughout the season.
The Braves aren't immune...
but they have more depth, at least in the pitching department, to overcome injuries. Lose JJ and Hanson, and Teheran and Delgado slide right in and they are just as talented. The Marlins don’t have anyone who can come near Johnson if/when he goes down, same with the Nats as Strasburg.
And I’m not saying the Braves will be a sure fire playoff caliber team again. What I’m saying is none of us have a crystal ball, and we, on paper, have just as strong a roster as anyone if things come together right (which all but maybe the Astros and Orioles can say right now).
http://sportsandgrits.com/
The thing that concerns me more than anything is the positional depth.
You have to have a backup plan for the worst case scenario. What if Pastornicky simply doesn’t hit. We have no one on our roster that I would want getting any kind of extended play at SS. What if Heyward doesn’t return to normal.
While our pitching depth may be good our positional depth sucks.
One other thing to add.
The Marlins locker room may be volatile but winning solves a lot of problems.
True
but they haven’t won yet. And some of those knuckleheads (LoMo, Guillen, Hanley at a new spot), may cause problems even if they are winning.
http://sportsandgrits.com/
Braves trade 2011 Jason Heyward and Martin Prado for 2010 Jason Heyward and Martin Prado.
Offseason over.
by drumzalicious on Jan 8, 2012 2:10 AM EST via mobile reply actions
Would you trade Nolan Ryan as he is today for Scott Proctor circa 2011? Can we even do that?
Sgt.: Pointed stick? Oh, oh, oh. We want to learn how to defend ourselves against pointed sticks, do we? Getting all high and mighty, eh? Fresh fruit not good enough for you eh? Well I'll tell you something my lad. When you're walking home tonight and some great homicidal maniac comes after you with a bunch of loganberries, don't come crying to me! Now, the passion fruit.
Mark Tehan
Just designated for assignment by Jays with signing of Darren Oliver.
Once a pretty well thought of prospect. Plays third and outfield. Might be worth a look.
You beat me to it...
This is a free play for us… If we don’t consider it, we’re fools. I like Teahan and I think there’s a place on our roster for him.
In the body of other posts, I am often admittedly high and tend to not want to edit a lot.
by willlinn on Dec 2, 2011 12:01 PM PST
if Wren gets Arenado from Colorado, I’ll give him a BJ.
by Scott Coleman on Dec 19, 2011 9:45 PM PST
by Klemson Krash on Jan 9, 2012 12:01 PM EST up reply actions
Well, maybe you can help me with this: what happened to him since 2006-07? He kinda did a crash-n-burn. And 2011 was horrible. Fangraphs did a piece on him last Spring that wasn’t exactly upbeat… and he managed to substantially underperform from even that assessment.
"Sir Stealth, Stay stealth.. Your a moron" (jrod1142), 12/15/11 (the epic FWren Fortitude FanPost)
Just to clarify: I’m not hating on the guy — but I am trying to figure out if there’s reason to believe a turn-around is possible, as his stats have been deteriorating year after year. If he needs a regular day job to snap out of it, for instance, then we probably don’t have a fit. If injuries have been plaguing him for years, then that’s another matter…. I’m really looking for info.
"Sir Stealth, Stay stealth.. Your a moron" (jrod1142), 12/15/11 (the epic FWren Fortitude FanPost)
perhaps a change of scenery. If he was terrible, he wouldn’t continue to find work. He’s only played in the AL as well. He may not be a starter, but a capable reserve player. He certainly could do no worse in the 25th man role than Conrad.
With his potential, a minor league deal could pay off tremendously.
If we can land [Stephen Drew], I will give FW a bj.
~justincredubil02
by king of games on Jan 9, 2012 6:06 PM EST up reply actions
Definitely worth a minor league deal
no clue if he has an attitude or what, but he’d seem like a worthy flier for Gwinnett to see if we can fix something.
http://sportsandgrits.com/
F. Mart????
released by the Mets. Still only 23. Knee issues, but he’s worlds of untapped potential, plays the OF and is RH.
by JoelGuzman'sScout on Jan 10, 2012 12:44 AM EST reply actions
makes too much sense
which means we wont be getting him
by drumzalicious on Jan 10, 2012 3:07 AM EST up reply actions
Not to mention he was once considered their top prospect, til the injury bug bit him, and bit him often.
"Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that." George Carlin
by DolphinNation on Jan 10, 2012 8:35 AM EST up reply actions
Orioles sign Taiwanese pitcher Wei-Yin Chen
3 yrs/close to $12m. That apparently led to this tweet:
MLBInsideNews Scott SwaimArrrrrggggg.
Was told #Orioles are backing off a potential Jurrjens deal after signing Chen.
"Sir Stealth, Stay stealth.. Your a moron" (jrod1142), 12/15/11 (the epic FWren Fortitude FanPost)
Meh, probably works out better that we don’t get Adam Jones.
If we can land [Stephen Drew], I will give FW a bj.
~justincredubil02
by king of games on Jan 10, 2012 12:07 PM EST up reply actions
Getting Jones for JJ would be one thing (and given that interview with Chipper that was just posted, I can actually come around to the idea of wanting Prado as “super utility”), the price the O’s were seeking was just ridiculous though.
Q: If not us, who? If not now, when? A: The Batman. And "when you least expect it."
Exactly.
And we seem to be ignoring the fact that our rotation is, in fact, better with a healthy JJ than without him. If he can stay healthy he’s a 200+ inning/sub 3.00 ERA pitcher. None of the youngsters that would replace him could likely match that. Probably the best move would be to move JJ at the deadline when teams are desperate.
If we can land [Stephen Drew], I will give FW a bj.
~justincredubil02
by king of games on Jan 10, 2012 3:38 PM EST up reply actions
And we also seem to have forgotten that the high level of excellence he showed in the 1st half last year was what he did the entire ’09 season: 14 -10 record, 2.60 ERA, 34 starts, 215.0 IP, 186 H, 75 BB, 152 K, 1.214 WHIP.
If he can stay healthy, his value will likely be sky high at the deadline.
No one forgets that
most just recognize the risk. IF healthy, his value is higher, much higher, at the end of July than it is now (plus it affords us the ability to play service time delay games on Teheran and Delgado). But IF he isn’t healthy, then his value plummets as other teams see an injury prone pitcher, especially if the injury is to his bad knee.
It’s a risky scenario, and it may work, it may not. But there’s potential up or down there in a big way depending on future events no one can foresee.
http://sportsandgrits.com/
I’ve never been very clear on exact nature of the knee issue or even if it was diagnosed as the same condition in each of the last seasons. But (I know you will correct me if I’m wrong) it hasn’t required surgery. So, to me, its pretty fuzzy exactly how risky the situation really may be, downside potential-wise, but there huge upside that I do tend to think is misunderestimated.
"misunderestimated"
is that actually a word?
Regardless, yes he had surgery on his right knee last offseason (a simple google search by you could have answered that yourself), and reinjured his right knee this year. Risky or not, the perception is good enough to drive down his value, and rightfully so. He’s injured the same knee two years in a row, requiring at least one surgery. Another DL stint this year because of the same knee would destroy any upside you are expecting. And his trade value will never be “sky high” because of the inherent risk of a repeatedly injured knee.
http://sportsandgrits.com/
no, but it is a famous malapropism.
so, you shamed me into googling and now I know it was lateral meniscus tear surgery, followed almost a full year later by a bone bruise that was apparently attributed to “the pounding” from landing at the end of his pitching motion which seems to not make sense given that he is a righty and, therefore, his left knee would take the pounding.
whether sensical or not, my point is Wren’s decision should not be based on perceptions, but rather on actual medical science and the best opinions of the best orthopaedic sugeons, rehabilitation medicine, or other specialists who he can consult. He has such access, as do all GMs who might be interested in JJ. however, we are just guessing … again.
also,the fact is that all athletes are at inherent risk of major career-ending or -changing injury.
if JJ avoids hamstring and oblique injuries (he’s had those too), has no recurrence of any right knee problems, and is lights out throughout the 2012 season leading up to the deadline, his trade value could be pretty high, imho, certainly much higher than it is now. you’re right that it could possibly also be lower or even destroyed, but we don’t have any real basis to weigh such risks.
obligatory... reply fail... :-P
Geez… and someone who’s been around as long as you..
Oh and I don’t have anything meaningful to say… I think I’m just going to troll you whenever I can until I feel better about the Lowrie thing… :-) But don’t tell yourself, I want it to be annoying and you to wonder why I’ve suddenly turned into a jerk towards you…
In the body of other posts, I am often admittedly high and tend to not want to edit a lot.
by willlinn on Dec 2, 2011 12:01 PM PST
if Wren gets Arenado from Colorado, I’ll give him a BJ.
by Scott Coleman on Dec 19, 2011 9:45 PM PST
by Klemson Krash on Jan 11, 2012 8:45 AM EST up reply actions
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