A Raw Deal For Raw Dog
by gondeee on Dec 12, 2011 12:29 PM EST
in Braves Quote For The Day
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He vaulted into Atlanta Braves fans' hearts with his penchant for big pinch hits during the 2010 season. He broke our hearts with his big errors in the 2010 postseason. In 2011, he seemed to disappear, though he still had a productive year as a pinch hitter. With all that Brooks Conrad has brought to the Braves over the last two seasons, some think he may not have a spot on next year's team. Here is MLB's Mark Bowman:
Saw some chatter about Brooks Conrad on Twitter this past weekend and it might have been sarcastic. But for those of you projecting next year's roster, I wouldn't reserve a spot for Conrad. He doesn't seem to be much of a factor in the plans for next year's club.
I'm not sure how Bowman came to this conclusion, and I'm not sure Conrad deserves to be relegated to having to make the team again. Remember that he had a terrible spring training in 2011, but still make the club, based largely on what he had done as a pinch hitter in 2010. Conrad didn't really disappoint in that department during the 2011 season, as he had just as many pinch hits (13) in only four more pinch hit at-bats. All of this while getting much less playing time overall under Fredi Gonzalez than under Bobby Cox -- 11 fewer games, 55 fewer plate appearances.
Brooks got on base at about the same rate, he got the same number of pinch hits, he slugged the same number of pinch hit home runs (3). For his career he is tied with Joe Adcock for the franchise record in career pinch-hit homers as a Brave with seven. As far as the art of pinch hitting goes, Conrad is pretty good. He'll take a walk in that situation, but he's also a power threat.
Perhaps this is a case of too many pinch hit type hitters currently under contract for the Braves -- Eric Hinske, Matt Diaz. The team may want to use that extra spot for a more defensive minded backup, rather than an all-hit-no-defense kind of player as Conrad has proven himself to be.
If Conrad is not included in the Braves roster plans for 2012, that seems like a raw deal for a proven contributor.
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Perhaps this is a case of too many pinch hit type hitters currently under contract for the Braves — Eric Hinske, Matt Diaz
Well, yeah. That’s pretty much it. We have our pinch hitting platoon. We’ll have Rossy, those two guys, a backup CF (Georgie?) and a good glove middle IFer (Wilson?).
Conrad is sort of redundant. Add in the fact that he can’t play defense at ALL and I’m wondering why the team would even start to consider bringing him back.
I guess one good question would be: Does he have options?
You'd think I was Travis Tritt struttin my FINE ASS on down to Florida
I think...
gondeee gave a pretty good explanation of why they would (or should) consider it. Defensively I don’t think he’s any worse than Diaz, and he seems to be a better pinch hitter.
"It breaks your heart. It is designed to break your heart. The game begins in the spring, when everything else begins again, and it blossoms in the summer, filling the afternoons and evenings, and then as soon as the chill rains come, it stops and leaves you to face the fall alone." A. Bartlett Giamatti
Wait, what?
Your argument is that he’s better than Diaz and that’s why we should keep him?
First of all… Unless he gets hurt in Florida this March or traded, Diaz is on the team. They aren’t eating $2MM. So, that point is moot.
Secondly, for what Diaz is on the team to do… which is hit lefties and play corner outfield, he’s much, much better than Brooks.
You'd think I was Travis Tritt struttin my FINE ASS on down to Florida
Well, maybe.
Brooksy can’t play the OF, it’s true, but Diaz hasn’t exactly been killing lefties lately (he had a .692 OPS against lefties last year… ouch).
I don’t always find things on TC exciting and gripping, but when they are, I prefer: Duwanis
by Santaklose11 on Dec 2, 2011 6:08 PM EST
there is truth to this statement.
What good is a lefty killer if he can’t kill them?
About as good as a Japanese Pitcher who can only beat Cy Young winners…
In the body of other posts, I am often admittedly high and tend to not want to edit a lot.
by willlinn on Dec 2, 2011 12:01 PM PST
by Klemson Krash on Dec 12, 2011 5:12 PM EST up reply actions
Diaz has a career .875 OPS against Lefties, including last year’s rough performance. I’d be the first to admit that he’s on the down slope of his career. But the guy’s OPS’d EIGHT SEVENTY FIVE against lefties… He does, in fact, kill lefties. And I’d expect a number somewhere around .775 – .800 OPS against them this year.
You'd think I was Travis Tritt struttin my FINE ASS on down to Florida
So you expect him to rebound
despite the fact that you’d be the first to admit he’s on the down slope of his career?
I don’t always find things on TC exciting and gripping, but when they are, I prefer: Duwanis
by Santaklose11 on Dec 2, 2011 6:08 PM EST
I think he had a shitty year. I don’t expect him to struggle, especially with hitting the ball out of the yard, like he did in 2011. I think a reasonable expectation is slightly below his career averages.
And, yeah… he’s 33. Of course he’s on the down slope. He’s probably not going to revert to his 2009 numbers.
You'd think I was Travis Tritt struttin my FINE ASS on down to Florida
Fair enough
I love Caveman, and I’d be happy to see him put up that kind of production. I just don’t have much faith that he will.
Not that I necessarily want Brooks to get the roster spot over him. I just get the impression that we’re building our roster around 2009 Diaz and we’re all going to be severely disappointed.
I don’t always find things on TC exciting and gripping, but when they are, I prefer: Duwanis
by Santaklose11 on Dec 2, 2011 6:08 PM EST
Even 2010 Diaz OPS’d .830 against lefties. I’m just sayin that .830 to .692 is one hell of a one year drop. I trust that he’ll put up better numbers. Shit, if he’s not by July, he could be DFAd. And then he’d be done because… let’s face it. If Caveman can’t hit lefties, he really can’t do anything well.
We have to hope that Fredi uses him properly. sigh.
You'd think I was Travis Tritt struttin my FINE ASS on down to Florida
The Braves wouldn't have to eat $2MM
IIRC, the Pirates ate most of what Diaz is owed for 2012, so the Braves would only be out a little over the minimum. Of course, that also makes Matty more tradable if the Braves decide to keep Conrad or two extra infielders (DeRo and Jack Wilson?).
"I've never complained about it. I'm thankful to have a jersey." Mark DeRosa, 22 Aug 2007
I was always under the impression that it was to cover his 2011 salary.
by drumzalicious on Dec 12, 2011 8:05 PM EST up reply actions
Like I said...
no specifics have ever been reported, so all any of us can do is guess.
http://sportsandgrits.com/
With only 5 bench spots and having Ross, Diaz and Hinske taking 3 of them, we need a backup SS and CF. Raw Dog is neither. Signing a guy like Jerry Hairston Jr could save Conrad’s spot, but Hairston is taken and I don’t know many more CF/SS’s. Maybe Mycal Jones, but I don’t see that happening.
It’s too bad, I like Conrad, seems like a great guy.
"First!"...Who gives a damn if you are first
Wouldn't...
our old pal Brent Lillibridge also work in this spot? Not advocating for him, but the ChiSox are moving people like it’s their job so maybe he’d fit. Not sure Conrad stays even with a Lillibridge type, though.
"If it's F'd up then it's F'd up" --- Gregg Marshall
Mycal Jones … are you forgetting his 43 errors in 125 games at shortstop in 2010 ?? Don’t think that translates even to a bench player !
by bravesfaninchitown on Dec 12, 2011 1:28 PM EST up reply actions
Very slim chance Conrad is with the Braves next year
2 bench spots remain: an infielder capable of filling in at SS and a OF that can play CF if something happens to Bourn.
Conrad can do neither.
We don’t necessarily need a CF backup to start the year, we have guys in AAA that can come up whenever needed. We don’t really have a legit SS backup, so we definitely need to sign one. So I could certainly see a scenario where Conrad gets a bench spot. They like him because he’s a switch hitter, so he’s basically a backup PH for both sides of the plate. If Bourn gets hurt in the middle of a game, Heyward can certainly slide over for a few innings in a pinch.
If we can land [Stephen Drew], I will give FW a bj.
~justincredubil02
by king of games on Dec 12, 2011 1:19 PM EST up reply actions
I doubt it...
When one comes up, one goes down. You wouldn’t be able to bring a guy from AAA unless someone’s hurt. Bourn’s going to need a day off sometime.
I said a few days ago that cutting ties with Brooks may be the smartest bench move the team’s made since getting Hinske and/or Ross.
Omar offered great versatility that covered for Conrad in 2010. In 2011, we saw a revolving door of CF before Constanza finally fit. But the fact is that he just doesn’t play the field, and the team doesn’t have the versatility to cover him anymore with Diaz taking a spot.
I think Conrad has to go. Finding a utility guy that covers CF, SS, 3B, and 2B is not easy, but that’s what the Braves would really need to make Brooks a comfortable fit. I’d also prefer someone that can actually back up Chipper and Uggla other than Prado…Brooks has just 32 games with 3 PA or more in 2 years. Prado and the bench have been picking up his defensive slack for some time now.
-C
It’s rough to sit through these games and not have someone that can’t hit a Ball?
Bourn is unlikely to need a day off in the first month or two of the season. You’d be hard pressed to find any team that has a legit backup on the bench for every position.
If we can land [Stephen Drew], I will give FW a bj.
~justincredubil02
by king of games on Dec 12, 2011 2:05 PM EST up reply actions
What if...
Bourn rolls his ankle sliding into a base and needs a couple of days off, but he doesn’t require going on the 15 day DL. You are then stuck with a 4 man bench and essentially 1 true OF in CF (Heyward), and 2 converted infielders in LF and RF (Prado and Hinske). You don’t need to send someone down for a few days just so you can bring up a CF. Because you then have to wait 10 days to bring the player back up. I’d love for the Braves to have someone like Brent Lillibridge that can play SS and the OF, but there isn’t many guys like that out there. The Braves have to have a backup CF.
Just think..
…if we could sign Beltran AND keep Prado, we’d have Prado for backup corner OF and we’d be in pretty frickin good shape, no true CF be damned….move Heyward….to center….
slips back into dreaming even deeper
…snore……….
by crimsonqueen9 on Dec 12, 2011 9:02 PM EST up reply actions
Beltran
Braves don’t want him.
A smart person knows what to say, a wise person knows whether or not to say it.
Twitter:Hey_Jude18
Carlos Lee
Last I heard the Braves are interested in getting him from the Astros if the $ is right.
A smart person knows what to say, a wise person knows whether or not to say it.
Twitter:Hey_Jude18
Lee has repeatedly refuse to leave Houston Jude,...
he has a no trade clause in his contract, and apparently has invoked it every time a trade has been discussed. I can’t see any reason he’d leave now if he never did before.
And I can’t imagine why they’d want the worse hitter and worse fielder in Lee compared to Beltran.
http://sportsandgrits.com/
by Mr. Sanchez on Dec 13, 2011 10:28 AM EST up reply actions
Take it up with DOB :)
He tweeted this last night.
A smart person knows what to say, a wise person knows whether or not to say it.
Twitter:Hey_Jude18
Thanks ma'am,...
and I looked at Carlos Lee, seems he may not have that no trade clause he once did. Can’t find a reason why, but that seems to be the rumors. I still wouldn’t want, considering he simply can’t field, and his bat may regress back to 2010 making him essentially a waste. Beltran seems like a much better option to my eyes, but as you say, the reports are what they are, and they don’t have us pursuing Beltran for whatever reason.
http://sportsandgrits.com/
I think I remember seeing somewhere that he has a limited no trade clause for certain teams and that clause supersedes his 10-5 rights so that he can be traded to any team not on his list. I could be wrong about that though.
If we can land [Stephen Drew], I will give FW a bj.
~justincredubil02
by king of games on Dec 13, 2011 3:09 PM EST up reply actions
I would imagine in this scenario he’d be much cheaper than Beltran.
If we can land [Stephen Drew], I will give FW a bj.
~justincredubil02
by king of games on Dec 13, 2011 2:15 PM EST up reply actions
Plus, Beltran has very bad knees
and is not the fielder he once was, he’s seen his best days, and his fans have too….
A smart person knows what to say, a wise person knows whether or not to say it.
Twitter:Hey_Jude18
Beltran's still a better fielder than Lee though
http://sportsandgrits.com/
by Mr. Sanchez on Dec 13, 2011 11:28 PM EST up reply actions
Actually, I think most teams...
…have a legit backup for every position. Usually a Utility INF who can play 2B, SS, and 3B, a backup catcher, a fourth & fifth OF, one of whom can play center, and a primary pinch-hitter who can play first.
I would like to see the Braves upgrade both Constanza and Conrad. Neither should be playing on a team hoping to make the playoffs.
The ideal solution would be to get a power hitting LF and move Prado to the super utility role. Then make a trade to get a right handed/switch hitting 4th outfielder as well as a utility player who could handle SS occasionally.
Bench:
Prado – LF, 1B, 2B, 3B
Ross – C
Punto – SS, 2B
Hinske – LH pinch hitter, LF
4th OF – RH pinch hitter RF, CF, LF
Unless you want to spend like the Yankees...
…having someone as good as Prado not playing everyday is a waste of resources.
But if you add Beltran to LF
with the injury proneness of him and others, he’d still be pretty much “playing everyday” even if not a starter should the team be 100% healthy.
http://sportsandgrits.com/
and he would still be a "starter" just without a position to call his own.
In the body of other posts, I am often admittedly high and tend to not want to edit a lot.
by willlinn on Dec 2, 2011 12:01 PM PST
by Klemson Krash on Dec 12, 2011 3:40 PM EST up reply actions
This
you expect Heyward out for a month as he’s been. Chipper has his month or two. Beltran could use a month. In the least, they’ll need regular rest even if they get lucky health-wise. You could give Uggla and Freeman some routine rest too, maybe Bourn a handful of days off if Beltran can play CF for 5-10 games. Have a much fresher team, and much stronger team, come the stretch run in August and September.
http://sportsandgrits.com/
That's great...
..but the injuries aren’t going to spread themselves out so nicely and Prado can’t play two positions when two players are hurt. By and large, if you have 8 regular starters, all of those guys will play together, when they are all healthy, at least 3 days a week, making Prado a half-time player except when someone is hurt. That’s an amazing luxury to have. It would be nice, but it would be silly unless we get someone better than Prado to play left. Beltran would be such a player, but he’s probably too expensive.
I've read around $10m per
add Lowe’s $5m, with a $5m savings from Jurrjens to Teheran/Delgado, and that covers the salary of Beltran. I don’t expect it, but I think it’s possible.
http://sportsandgrits.com/
Exactly cavebird
Well said!
by In a minute I might be right on Dec 12, 2011 5:59 PM EST up reply actions
No, Prado can't cover LF and 3B at the same time
But the fact that we’d have a competent fill-in for the four (five even, not counting 2B as a “middle”) non-up-the-middle positions gives us a gigantic boost.
Signing Beltran can be done and I think it would be a big move to prove the owners really are willing to put more money into making for a winning team. We cleared $5M from Lowe and will clear about the same if JJ is traded….there’s a big chunk right there. Even if he’s only worth another WAR or WAR n a half more than Prado would be, his presence and reputation give us extra clout. Imagine being an opponent manager late in a tough game, bases juiced, one out, and you have Chipper-McCann-Uggla-Beltran due up. Yikes. But maybe I’m dreaming again.
by crimsonqueen9 on Dec 12, 2011 9:10 PM EST up reply actions
He will only make 4.5M next season. It’s not like they are breaking the bank to keep him.
by FourScore199 on Dec 12, 2011 5:09 PM EST up reply actions
Raw deal, really?
the guy is worthless. 3 bombs as a ph, nice. the damn near 50% k rate, not so nice. add in the fact he can’t be relied on defensively anywhere on the diamond and i say good riddance. he shouldn’t have been brought back for 2011, so this is just righting that wrong.
too harsh
and you arent factoring in the fact that his hits are often in clutch situations. It isn’t easy to find a pinch hitter that wants to be up with the game on the line and has confidence in that spot. Mother fucker can win a game as a pinch hitter
if he were lenny harris, maybe. but it’s brooks conrad we’re talking about. and since you can eliminate fielding from his resume, as a pinchhitter, he sure as heck better be elite. a .210 ph avg with strike outs in nearly half the plate appearances doesn’t cut it.
by SidBreamsSlide on Dec 12, 2011 2:43 PM EST up reply actions
Clutch hitting, by and large...
…is a myth. Noone maintains it over time. To the extent Conrad has been clutch, it has been luck.
Not everyone...
agrees with that. Not even all statistically minded people.
"It breaks your heart. It is designed to break your heart. The game begins in the spring, when everything else begins again, and it blossoms in the summer, filling the afternoons and evenings, and then as soon as the chill rains come, it stops and leaves you to face the fall alone." A. Bartlett Giamatti
My own $0.02...
I think the idea of someone who consistently performs better in clutch situations than they do in normal situations is dubious, and definitely difficult to prove.
I think the idea of someone who consistently performs poorly in clutch situations isn’t a myth at all. So I think there’s merit to talking about someone as a “clutch hitter” in the sense that they’ve proven they don’t choke.
I don’t always find things on TC exciting and gripping, but when they are, I prefer: Duwanis
by Santaklose11 on Dec 2, 2011 6:08 PM EST
is this where I write Tebow is Clutch? And promptly get /bannedforlife?
In the body of other posts, I am often admittedly high and tend to not want to edit a lot.
by willlinn on Dec 2, 2011 12:01 PM PST
by Klemson Krash on Dec 12, 2011 4:53 PM EST up reply actions
Link please...
…I have yet to see a statistical defense of clutch hitting. Now I am curious.
I didn't say...
there is a statistical defense. I just said that there are some people who make use of, and see the value of, advanced statistics, who also do not think it’s possible for some people to perform better in certain situations.
"It breaks your heart. It is designed to break your heart. The game begins in the spring, when everything else begins again, and it blossoms in the summer, filling the afternoons and evenings, and then as soon as the chill rains come, it stops and leaves you to face the fall alone." A. Bartlett Giamatti
Meant to say...
DO think it’s possible….
"It breaks your heart. It is designed to break your heart. The game begins in the spring, when everything else begins again, and it blossoms in the summer, filling the afternoons and evenings, and then as soon as the chill rains come, it stops and leaves you to face the fall alone." A. Bartlett Giamatti
Could you give us specific examples of these people? I’ve never seen them. The data is at your fingertips to prove clutch hitting exists ANY time (www.baseballreference.com) .
I don't have time...
for silly things like that.
"It breaks your heart. It is designed to break your heart. The game begins in the spring, when everything else begins again, and it blossoms in the summer, filling the afternoons and evenings, and then as soon as the chill rains come, it stops and leaves you to face the fall alone." A. Bartlett Giamatti
He's a solid pinch hitter
and in a pinch hitting role, like duwanis said, most of your at bats are in “clutch” spots, so any hit is deemed “clutch”.
I think he’s getting shafted by Diaz in most projections, and I don’t project much from him, probably less than I would from Conrad.
But kind of like with Prado, considering the injury prone nature of multiple spots on the roster, and the fact that Brooks should still have one more season of options left, I’ve got no qualms with a roster strong enough to have Raw Dog as the kind of 26th man, and the first call up from Gwinnett should someone (cough*Chipper*cough, cough*Heyward*cough, etc) hit the DL.
http://sportsandgrits.com/
I know that 104 PAs isn’t a lot… but he’s OPSing 1.002 in high leverage situations. That’s just insane. It just seems odd to me to say “Oh, he’s lucky” when he’s done it SO many times…
You'd think I was Travis Tritt struttin my FINE ASS on down to Florida
That's interesting...
…because people keep saying he’s a great pinch-hitter, even thought he has a career OPS of .676 as a pinch-hitter. Of course, that’s only 155 plate appearances, which is pretty much just as meaningless as the 104 plate appearances in high leverage situations.
What is a good ops for pinch hitters?
honest question. Any ideas what the league average in all pinch hit situations are?
http://sportsandgrits.com/
by Mr. Sanchez on Dec 13, 2011 10:28 AM EST up reply actions
I CALL UPON THE GREAT SPIRIT OF JACOB PETERSON
Seriously, though. I know it’s a lot lower than normal; for example, a .250 AVG is considered great for a PH.
I don’t know anything about the other numbers, though, and the above is something I’ve heard mentioned on a TV broadcast, so take this with a grain of salt.
I don’t always find things on TC exciting and gripping, but when they are, I prefer: Duwanis
by Santaklose11 on Dec 2, 2011 6:08 PM EST
MLB average OPS for pinch hitters in 2011 was .606
If we can land [Stephen Drew], I will give FW a bj.
~justincredubil02
by king of games on Dec 13, 2011 11:51 AM EST up reply actions
He's a pinch hitter
so the fact that his hits are “often in clutch situations” isn’t at all surprising or unexpected – his at-bats are “often in clutch situations.”
I don’t always find things on TC exciting and gripping, but when they are, I prefer: Duwanis
by Santaklose11 on Dec 2, 2011 6:08 PM EST
willlinn... in your development as an outstanding contributor to this blog... please let me pass one another bit of TC knowledge...
using the word “Clutch” and “Hitting” together… will get you soundly ridiculed by people who don’t even normally post on the site… I figured you’d seen this before but just so you know for the future, those two words should never be used in near proximity. Trust me, from a guy who took his lumps for it… :-D
However, reading these comments, I may be a minute too late.
In the body of other posts, I am often admittedly high and tend to not want to edit a lot.
by willlinn on Dec 2, 2011 12:01 PM PST
by Klemson Krash on Dec 12, 2011 2:59 PM EST up reply actions
They can ridicule me all they want.
Tim Tebow and I say we can take it.
"It breaks your heart. It is designed to break your heart. The game begins in the spring, when everything else begins again, and it blossoms in the summer, filling the afternoons and evenings, and then as soon as the chill rains come, it stops and leaves you to face the fall alone." A. Bartlett Giamatti
sddbaker=willlinn!?
After all this time… I never knew. :-)
In all seriousness, I think we all know I care not what others have to say about me either… I just try to help where I can. :-) In Tebow I trust… :-D
In the body of other posts, I am often admittedly high and tend to not want to edit a lot.
by willlinn on Dec 2, 2011 12:01 PM PST
by Klemson Krash on Dec 12, 2011 3:42 PM EST up reply actions
Ugh
Tebow…can we please keep that name off of this site? It’s bad enough that I hear/read it everywhere else.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Dec 12, 2011 3:47 PM EST up reply actions
You didn't hear!?
He’s pulling a Bo Jackson and decided to play baseball… He’s going to sign w/ the Rockies and Tebow them to the WS title…
I actually love what he’s doing in Denver as it will hopefully shut these stupid talking heads on TV up over what is and is not an NFL player/QB/RB/TE/WR/whatever else they may think they know.
In the body of other posts, I am often admittedly high and tend to not want to edit a lot.
by willlinn on Dec 2, 2011 12:01 PM PST
by Klemson Krash on Dec 12, 2011 4:02 PM EST up reply actions
Marion Barber Tebowed the Broncos to victory yesterday, not Tim.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Dec 12, 2011 4:03 PM EST up reply actions
That’s what the Tebow wants you to think.
If we can land [Stephen Drew], I will give FW a bj.
~justincredubil02
by king of games on Dec 12, 2011 4:05 PM EST up reply actions
"When the sage's work is done,...
the people will look back upon it and say ‘it happened to us naturally’".
http://sportsandgrits.com/
No... The Broncos defense WON that game...
Marion Barber LOST that game. Tebow merely did what he always does. Gives his team a shot when it counts.
In the body of other posts, I am often admittedly high and tend to not want to edit a lot.
by willlinn on Dec 2, 2011 12:01 PM PST
by Klemson Krash on Dec 12, 2011 4:08 PM EST up reply actions
Anyone can give their team a shot when it counts, when “when it counts” constantly finds your team in a position where you D has given up fewer than 15 points.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Dec 12, 2011 4:10 PM EST up reply actions
The Broncos D is better because they BELIEVE...
if they keep the game close, Tim Tebow will wake up and give them a chance… He has done it 5 times now. it’s not coincidence at this point. It’s a trend. An amazing, inexplicable trend… I know we can go a ways down this rabbit hole and for the sake of all that’s holy, I prefer not to… but when a team believes in each other, special things happen. The greatest teams don’t necessarily always have the superstar talents… the great TEAMS are just that, a group of guys who believe in the same goal and truly trust each other to meet that goal.
In the body of other posts, I am often admittedly high and tend to not want to edit a lot.
by willlinn on Dec 2, 2011 12:01 PM PST
by Klemson Krash on Dec 12, 2011 4:44 PM EST up reply actions
I personally witnessed Tim Tebow cause Marion Barber to step out of bounds and stop the clock.
Then, I watched with my own eyes as Tim Tebow guided Prader’s kick 59 yards through the uprights with his soothing, inspiring leadership.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Dec 12, 2011 4:46 PM EST up reply actions
Did he help put them in those positions to take advantage of the mistake?
/argumentover
http://sportsandgrits.com/
You know, it’s hard to NOT be in a position to take advantage of something when your D only gives up 10 points.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Dec 12, 2011 4:50 PM EST up reply actions
My answer to the question is the Defense.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Dec 12, 2011 4:57 PM EST up reply actions
Which he helped put in those positions
your answer is yes. How every many words you want to use to say it, it’s still yes whether you like it or not.
http://sportsandgrits.com/
No it isn't
My answer is that the Defense put Tebow in a situation to win, not vice versa.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Dec 12, 2011 5:33 PM EST up reply actions
you can't have one without the other
how many turnovers does he have? That’s a part of their defense improving, again, whether you like it or not. He has an impact on the game as a whole. How much of an impact is debate, that there is an impact is not.
http://sportsandgrits.com/
You are so good at saying what I try to say in
so fewer words… thank you for that.
In the body of other posts, I am often admittedly high and tend to not want to edit a lot.
by willlinn on Dec 2, 2011 12:01 PM PST
by Klemson Krash on Dec 12, 2011 5:42 PM EST up reply actions
I can agree with this, at least to some extent
like I said somewhere in here, I just think Tebow’s contributions have been overstated. There is no denying when they’ve HAD to have him late in the game, he has come through. If he put 4 quarters together like that, he would silence a lot of people
DFA Heyward. I'm dead serious
by wpf3211 on Aug 6, 2011 9:11 PM EDT
I'll agree with that.
With the sole caveat of this: how many tough, big-time throws has Tebow made in these situations this year? I can only think of one.
The rest were either check-downs, throws to wide-open WRs or screen passes.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Dec 12, 2011 5:50 PM EST up reply actions
Off the top of my head, I can think of only a few
-pass to Decker for like 50 yds and a TD against KC
- 2 passes against SD that got them into FG range to tie the game
The one to Decker against KC was a great throw
DFA Heyward. I'm dead serious
by wpf3211 on Aug 6, 2011 9:11 PM EDT
The 2 against SD were to a wide open Thomas who blew away their secondary, IIRC.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Dec 12, 2011 6:03 PM EST up reply actions
maybe there was only 1 against SD
I can’t remember. I rarely see highlights, bc I have to turn the tv off when Denver highlights come on bc the “analysis” is such garbage
DFA Heyward. I'm dead serious
by wpf3211 on Aug 6, 2011 9:11 PM EDT
The defense believed if they gave Tebow a chance
at the end of the game… he would win it… so they play their balls off to get him to that point…
Tebow is like a roller coaster… the first minute of it is so painful and slow and it upsets your stomach just thinking about what’s the come…. then the last minute is a huge rush of excitement and you decide you want to ride again…
In the body of other posts, I am often admittedly high and tend to not want to edit a lot.
by willlinn on Dec 2, 2011 12:01 PM PST
by Klemson Krash on Dec 12, 2011 5:37 PM EST up reply actions
All I am going to say about Tim Tebow
1. He will eventually be exposed if he doesn’t learn to throw better. You can’t be a primarily running QB in the NFL too long. If nothing else, a linebacker will knock him into retirement eventually.
2. His defense is very good and his opponents have not been so good. Could he keep up scoring with an offense like the Patriots, Packers or Saints? Um, I doubt it.
3. If he has the talent to rise to the occasion late in games, then why the hell is he dogging it for the first three quarters? If he has that talent, there is not excuse for him not to show it for the first 45 minutes. Professional football players damn well ought to bring it the whole game.
One thing I can compare Tebow to… a professional boxer who deeply understands the rope-a-dope concept…
He just pounds the defense all day w/ his run/pass/hand-off routine keeping them on the field and just wearing them down… Finally, at the end of the game, using much the same concepts w/ a little more open playbook and the defense tired, he just does enough to win the fight… That’s the only thing I could possibly compare it to…
In the body of other posts, I am often admittedly high and tend to not want to edit a lot.
by willlinn on Dec 2, 2011 12:01 PM PST
by Klemson Krash on Dec 13, 2011 9:48 AM EST up reply actions
That’s quite the straw-grasping.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Dec 13, 2011 10:58 AM EST up reply actions
true or false....
A) The longer a defense is on the field, the more they wear down?
B) A run heavy offense eats a ton of clock?
C) At the end of the game, 99.9% of defenses w/ a 10 point or greater lead play prevent style defense to prevent the big gain?
D) Tired players make fewer plays and poorer reads than fresh players?
I think if you tie all of those things together, you start to see a chasm flaw in a defense against the Broncos…
Teams should play the same smashmouth style they have for the first 55 minutes the last 5 minutes… For whatever reason, they don’t… Tebow takes advantage of this and the worn down defense…
Simple formula in my mind… not much need for a straw.
In the body of other posts, I am often admittedly high and tend to not want to edit a lot.
by willlinn on Dec 2, 2011 12:01 PM PST
by Klemson Krash on Dec 13, 2011 4:05 PM EST up reply actions
I don’t think any NFL defenses are tired after Tim Tebow throws for 120 yards against them.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Dec 16, 2011 8:58 PM EST up reply actions
Whew! Thought I was the only one that saw that.
If we can land [Stephen Drew], I will give FW a bj.
~justincredubil02
by king of games on Dec 12, 2011 4:49 PM EST up reply actions
The Tebow is omniscient , omnipotent, an omnipresent. You cannot escape him, so you may as well join him. All he asks is for your undivided devotion and unfaltering faith.
If we can land [Stephen Drew], I will give FW a bj.
~justincredubil02
by king of games on Dec 12, 2011 4:03 PM EST up reply actions
Do not get me started. I almost hate the NFL right now.
-C
It’s rough to sit through these games and not have someone that can’t hit a Ball?
Same here.
Fun Fact: in 5 games, Orton led the Denver offense to 20+ points 4 times.
In 8 games, Tebow has done it twice.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Dec 12, 2011 4:24 PM EST up reply actions
That stat is about as useful for pitchers as it is for QB's
DFA Heyward. I'm dead serious
by wpf3211 on Aug 6, 2011 9:11 PM EDT
I'd disagree
not saying it’s highly useful, but a QB has more impact on his team winning than a pitcher.
And the point remains, they lost with Orton, and are winning with Tebow. Whether or not they’d be winning with Orton is impossible to say, especially considering how much they’ve changed their style of play which slows things down a LOT more than with Orton under center.
http://sportsandgrits.com/
Let's not confuse
winning “with Tebow” with “Winning because of Tebow”.
I find it very hard to believe that an offense that is scoring fewer points under a QB who is completing fewer passes for fewer yards is the reason for the turn-around.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Dec 12, 2011 4:30 PM EST up reply actions
Except their style of play is completely different
which reduces points as they play a slower, more methodical game.
And didn’t I say “winning with Tebow”? But yeah, thanks for telling me not to confuse my own words.
http://sportsandgrits.com/
Even then
I don’t think we should give credit to a guy who’s coaches are protecting him from himself.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Dec 12, 2011 4:39 PM EST up reply actions
You can describe it as that
or you can describe it as coaches who are using a system that works with the talent they have on the field. One way is the hater way, the other is a more general, honest assessment.
http://sportsandgrits.com/
Then his coach must be a hater, because he said that if they tried to run a normal offense (IE, pass the ball) the would be “screwed.”
His own President of Football Operations must be a hater, because he said that Tebow is not the answer at QB.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Dec 12, 2011 4:47 PM EST up reply actions
I have no doubts that this is killing Elway on the inside
DFA Heyward. I'm dead serious
by wpf3211 on Aug 6, 2011 9:11 PM EDT
“he said that if they tried to run a normal offense (IE, pass the ball) the would be "screwed."
How is that different from anything I’ve said about how they adjusted to their players individual abilities? Hint: It’s not. But thanks for the regurgitation.
And if Elway ultimately wants to take the team in a different direction, that’s on him. But it’s working right now, and you can’t deny that fact with all the “in spite of him” bs you keep trying to spit. Again, since you clearly let it fly over your head: The hater way “In spite of Tebow”. The honest way:
“Adjustments were made to put Tebow in a position more suited to his abilities, and it’s working”.
http://sportsandgrits.com/
Disagree...
Tebow can play quarterback and he can make the throws. He has proven that. He’s not conventional but put him in the hurry up offense more and you might see a different Tebow. He has consistently ran the 2 minute drill at a level that is consistent if not better than the average NFL QB.
In the body of other posts, I am often admittedly high and tend to not want to edit a lot.
by willlinn on Dec 2, 2011 12:01 PM PST
by Klemson Krash on Dec 12, 2011 4:46 PM EST up reply actions
Tebow can't make the throws
that’s the criticism against him.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Dec 12, 2011 4:48 PM EST up reply actions
We'll agree there
he’s inaccurate, and has that Leftwich long loop motion that gives DBs the extra split second they need for pics. Try and run a more “conventional” offense with him, trying to pocket passer him, and it fails miserably. But the Broncos are wisely not doing that.
http://sportsandgrits.com/
I used Leftwich as the comp as well.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Dec 12, 2011 4:55 PM EST up reply actions
throwing wise...
but he’s much more mobile than Byron ever was, and uses that to the utmost advantage.
http://sportsandgrits.com/
but yet… we have visual evidence that in the 2 minute drill… with his back against the wall… he is able to throw the ball effectively and someone quick, what is his TD/INT ratio!?
His feet, being the weapons they are, open up his ability (or inability) to pass the ball as he does. DBs can’t cheat on the ball w/ him because he will be stiff arming them as he runs by them.
That’s the difference. Does he have perfect mechanics? No. Does he get the job done? Yes.
In the body of other posts, I am often admittedly high and tend to not want to edit a lot.
by willlinn on Dec 2, 2011 12:01 PM PST
by Klemson Krash on Dec 12, 2011 4:56 PM EST up reply actions
Have you watched the games?
When has Tebow completed a tough pass in crunch time? I can think of one all season, and it took a diving catch from the TE over the middle in double coverage to catch it.
Just about every other big pass that he has made on game winning/tying drives has been to wide open receivers or underneath routes.
Hell, Luke McCown can make those throws.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Dec 12, 2011 4:59 PM EST up reply actions
I admit,
I am devoid of Tebow game time watching other than what SportsCenter forcefeeds me… but I look at his stats (yes, he didn’t complete a pass in 2 quarters yesterday) and make assertations that he was not able to make 20 wide open throws a game…
Now riddle me this, why are the receivers so wide open!? It’s certainly not because DBs respect Tebows arm…
In the body of other posts, I am often admittedly high and tend to not want to edit a lot.
by willlinn on Dec 2, 2011 12:01 PM PST
by Klemson Krash on Dec 12, 2011 5:06 PM EST up reply actions
he missed several open receivers earlier in the game
2-3 to thomas that would have gone for big gains/td’s, and he just didn’t make a good throw.
DFA Heyward. I'm dead serious
by wpf3211 on Aug 6, 2011 9:11 PM EDT
I don't disagree he misses open recievers.
In the body of other posts, I am often admittedly high and tend to not want to edit a lot.
by willlinn on Dec 2, 2011 12:01 PM PST
by Klemson Krash on Dec 12, 2011 5:13 PM EST up reply actions
Thomas
That man has blown by the coverage in each of the last few games – and it’s not because the safety was drawn in for the run or because the CB was playing a zone.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Dec 12, 2011 5:19 PM EST up reply actions
Now you've crossed the line
Luke McCown can make those throws
DFA Heyward. I'm dead serious
by wpf3211 on Aug 6, 2011 9:11 PM EDT
lol
as a Jags fan, I can agree with you. I was wrong. McCown can’t make any throws – not to his own teamates, anyway.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Dec 12, 2011 5:20 PM EST up reply actions
Seriously can anybody tell me why the bears decided to drop back so far and leave the entire middle of the field open for him to throw into for the last two drives? He started completing passes because the bears changed their defense that worked the entire game before that. Why on earth would you drop back and give him room to move around and empty spots on the field, you can’t be that damn afraid of his deap ball that you have to change everything that worked the whole game. Make him beat you with a good throw not an easy check-down that’s wide open. The guy can hit wide open receivers and he can run the ball fairly well… especially in a league where if you remotely touch a quarterback’s leg it’s a penalty.
Seriously can anybody tell me why the bears decided to drop back so far and leave the entire middle of the field open for him to throw into for the last two drives?
Tebow parting the waters as applied to football. :^)
"People ask me what I do in winter when there's no baseball. I'll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring." Rogers Hornsby
Isn’t that exactly what the Broncos have been doing with various players for decades?
If we can land [Stephen Drew], I will give FW a bj.
~justincredubil02
by king of games on Dec 12, 2011 4:47 PM EST up reply actions
this
they’ve gone ultra-conservative on offense. Perhaps they should have done this with Orton, bc the turnovers is what killed him/them. The Defense has carried that team. I do give Tebow some credit, bc at the end of the game, he has orchestrated a drive to win when they HAD to have it. However, he’s only 1-1 against teams that would be in the playoffs, beating the equally terrible Mark Sanchez, and getting throttled by the Lions
DFA Heyward. I'm dead serious
by wpf3211 on Aug 6, 2011 9:11 PM EDT
This offense wouldn't work with Orton
because he’s not the runner you have to respect that Tebow is, which changes things. You see it in replays, Ds key on him running so much they ignore open receivers, which he finds and hits at times.
To say, “they should have done this with Orton” ignores that the two are extremely different ability wise, and that opposing Ds would not be attacking this style of offense led by Orton the same as they are attacking it with Tebow.
http://sportsandgrits.com/
I understand the 2 styles are different
it was more they should have pulled the reigns back on Orton. Their commitment to the run now would have helped him a lot. To put it another way, they should have Bobo’d like they were up 14
DFA Heyward. I'm dead serious
by wpf3211 on Aug 6, 2011 9:11 PM EDT
At which point teams crowd the box, focus on the hand off
and you’re done. Tebow forces you to respect the fact that he’s faking the handoff and about to come at you himself. Orton doesn’t bring that threat, which again CHANGES HOW OPPOSING D’s ATTACK.
All the hate aside, you have to admit he is a unique threat, unlike any other in the NFL, and opposing Ds are simply not constructed to address what he does. They are designed to attack more conventional, “better” offenses, and the Broncos are doing a good job exploiting that fact with their unique skill set.
http://sportsandgrits.com/
I think the Bears had played great against him on D for 3 quarters yesterday
and then inexplicably, decided to scrap that plan entirely in the 4th quarter. Heard one of the NFL guys on ESPN talking about that today.
I would love to see the Broncos Steelers in the 1st round of the playoffs just to see what Dick LeBeau comes up with
DFA Heyward. I'm dead serious
by wpf3211 on Aug 6, 2011 9:11 PM EDT
Well, the Pat’s problem on D is the secondary. Other than keeping Thomas in front of them, I don’t think they will have too much to worry about.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Dec 12, 2011 4:56 PM EST up reply actions
I can't believe he has put two 5'9" WR's into his defense
and it has somehow had a reasonable amount of success.
Random aside: does Belichek have some sort of cloning device, but it only works on whiteys that are 5’9"?
DFA Heyward. I'm dead serious
by wpf3211 on Aug 6, 2011 9:11 PM EDT
Belichek is a coach genius
of the mold we will never see in our generation again. He was bred from Coaching genius and he will breed another genius I’m sure.. but he can do almost anything w/ his players and make it work.
Might not be pretty… but who needs pretty when you can get the Ws.
In the body of other posts, I am often admittedly high and tend to not want to edit a lot.
by willlinn on Dec 2, 2011 12:01 PM PST
by Klemson Krash on Dec 12, 2011 5:07 PM EST up reply actions
Dungy was completely dumbfounded as to why the Bears decided to change up the D in the 4th.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Dec 12, 2011 4:55 PM EST up reply actions
Tebow made them do it... i'm sure...
Interesting point (in seriousness) I heard today… This Tebow come back thing is getting into the heads of the D-Coordinators now… Say it’s bunk or whatever but I thought it interesting to hear a talking head mention this particular fact… D-Coords are now trying to prevent the come back and it seems by changing their defensive schemes, it isn’t working…
In the body of other posts, I am often admittedly high and tend to not want to edit a lot.
by willlinn on Dec 2, 2011 12:01 PM PST
by Klemson Krash on Dec 12, 2011 4:58 PM EST up reply actions
this is the kind of talk that I can't stand about the tebow phenomenon
it’s right up there on the level with Chuck Norris jokes. Tebow gets in their head, tebow made his defense play better, etc. It really is ridiculous. He deserves credit for the end of game drives to win games, yes. It has been something special that he has been at the helm for those drives… At the same time, he does not deserve credit for things that happens while he’s not on the field- Marion barber fumbling, etc.
DFA Heyward. I'm dead serious
by wpf3211 on Aug 6, 2011 9:11 PM EDT
To that I say...
sure he does. If your defense believes you will win the game if they keep it close… they will up their game.
Not to deify him, because I don’t believe in the least he should be… But how many underperforming armies have had an outstanding general put in front of them and they (the grunts) done something that is unbelievable?
When you have great leadership (and Justin, if you argue with me on this, you know you’re doing it just to argue)… When you have someone to follow, do you not perform better? Do the masses not up their game to do what the leader tells them they can do!?
In the body of other posts, I am often admittedly high and tend to not want to edit a lot.
by willlinn on Dec 2, 2011 12:01 PM PST
by Klemson Krash on Dec 12, 2011 5:09 PM EST up reply actions
I agree that great leaders can get people to do extraordinary things, that they can be inspired and perform at levels they shouldn’t be capable of. I also believe that this happens only on maybe a handful of occasions, and is in no way sustainable, or rather that the effect can only last for so long.
The Denver defense has improved every week because they have young players, Von Miller, Dumervil, Ayers, among others, that are coming into their own. The offense is certainly helping by keeping them off the field and controlling the clock, and Tebow isn’t turning it over. Maybe Tebow does have some magical factor going for him, but I think it is extremely overstated at this moment.
DFA Heyward. I'm dead serious
by wpf3211 on Aug 6, 2011 9:11 PM EDT
I don't disagree he is getting too much press
but read Peter King’s MMQB. How much time does Tebow give to the media to toot his own horn? .9% of his week… The only people tooting his horn are the talking heads who have nothing better to do than banter back and forth about things they don’t really understand and will argue about just to make good TV…
Young players need something to believe in because every team has rookies and every team “SHOULD” get better with time… but few do. Why? In my honest opinion it is because the Broncos have something to believe in… Even when the Director of NFL operations or whatever Elway’s name is… and the head football coach (Fox, of whom I have great respect and got to meet the man in Afghanistan and love what he says about his players) don’t believe in what they have… I love Fox because he changed his mindset to give Tebow a fighting chance… but it did take a little convincing.
In the body of other posts, I am often admittedly high and tend to not want to edit a lot.
by willlinn on Dec 2, 2011 12:01 PM PST
by Klemson Krash on Dec 12, 2011 5:27 PM EST up reply actions
Fox
Should get coach of the year. He clearly recognizes his team’s ability and has constructed the game-plan to take advantage of their abilities and minimize their weaknesses.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Dec 12, 2011 5:29 PM EST up reply actions
I don't disagree with that statement...
Like I said somewhere… I met Fox… He talked up his backup QB like he was Tom Brady… The man is a leader and I would love to work for him… and when you mix him w/ Tebow… I’m sure the locker room speeches are made for movie type stuff…
In the body of other posts, I am often admittedly high and tend to not want to edit a lot.
by willlinn on Dec 2, 2011 12:01 PM PST
by Klemson Krash on Dec 12, 2011 5:31 PM EST up reply actions
this
3rd qb, no mario williams, no andre johnson
DFA Heyward. I'm dead serious
by wpf3211 on Aug 6, 2011 9:11 PM EDT
don't disagree w/ this statement either...
and 1st Texan playoff appearance… not too shabby
In the body of other posts, I am often admittedly high and tend to not want to edit a lot.
by willlinn on Dec 2, 2011 12:01 PM PST
by Klemson Krash on Dec 12, 2011 5:38 PM EST up reply actions
Please. In the AFC South? That division was the Texans’ for the taking. I’m not impressed.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Dec 12, 2011 5:38 PM EST up reply actions
they're the 1 seed in the AFC as of now
come on. No arian foster the first 3 weeks too… Kubiak wills his team to win…..
DFA Heyward. I'm dead serious
by wpf3211 on Aug 6, 2011 9:11 PM EDT
Ugh
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Dec 12, 2011 5:44 PM EST up reply actions
Or maybe the Broncos just beat bad teams. Tebow’s wins come against a combined record of 39-52.
The three teams with winning records, but one was an AFC West team with a guy starting his first game for the team. A second was against another team that lost its franchise QB for the season. The third was playing a short week after a good D played the polar opposite type of offense against a division rival the Sunday prior.
That’s either a lot of excuses or valid context, depending on whether you’re a Tebow fan.
Fact is, the Broncos have outscored Tebow’s eight opponents by 8 points this season and Prater is responsible for a third of the team’s points in that stretch.
-C
It’s rough to sit through these games and not have someone that can’t hit a Ball?
Here’s a general synopsis of the Bronco’s average drive result for each game:
Punt, Punt, Punt, Fumble, Punt, Punt, FG, Punt, Punt, TD/FG
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Dec 12, 2011 5:31 PM EST up reply actions
you forgot the most important part...
the end of the game has a W by the Broncos… and an L by the opponent.
In the body of other posts, I am often admittedly high and tend to not want to edit a lot.
by willlinn on Dec 2, 2011 12:01 PM PST
by Klemson Krash on Dec 12, 2011 5:32 PM EST up reply actions
I don't disagree w/ this statement either.
When (not if) they beat the Patriots… what do you say then?
In the body of other posts, I am often admittedly high and tend to not want to edit a lot.
by willlinn on Dec 2, 2011 12:01 PM PST
by Klemson Krash on Dec 12, 2011 5:32 PM EST up reply actions
Well, I’m not sure when they have the Pats on their schedule next, so IDK what I will say when they beat them.
I don’t think I’ll have to say anything as soon as next week, though.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Dec 12, 2011 5:35 PM EST up reply actions
this Sunday
last 3 games: NE, @ Buf, KC. They ought to win the last 2, no telling NE game
DFA Heyward. I'm dead serious
by wpf3211 on Aug 6, 2011 9:11 PM EDT
Whoosh.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Dec 12, 2011 5:38 PM EST up reply actions
yea... i did too...
le sigh… me and my fast fingers…
In the body of other posts, I am often admittedly high and tend to not want to edit a lot.
by willlinn on Dec 2, 2011 12:01 PM PST
by Klemson Krash on Dec 12, 2011 5:39 PM EST up reply actions
yeah, I didn't read the 2nd sentence
fail by me
DFA Heyward. I'm dead serious
by wpf3211 on Aug 6, 2011 9:11 PM EDT
THIS WEEK! dude... it's the matchup of the week...
Brady vs. Tebow… haven’t you watched ESPN or turned on a radio!?
In the body of other posts, I am often admittedly high and tend to not want to edit a lot.
by willlinn on Dec 2, 2011 12:01 PM PST
by Klemson Krash on Dec 12, 2011 5:38 PM EST up reply actions
The Patriots have one of the worst defenses in the league this year, so I’m not going to say a whole lot.
They’re mediocre against the run and they don’t force fumbles, which plays to the Broncos’ strength in the running game.
That said, I think the Broncos can be passed on, so that could hurt them. If Brady gets rolling early, it could get ugly.
-C
It’s rough to sit through these games and not have someone that can’t hit a Ball?
This will be a game where it has to be Brady Vs Tebow...
because Brady will score… but if we all saw the same minnesota (i think) game… we saw Tebow has it in him to score on bad defenses too… the difference in this game… Brady is a little better than Ponder… just a little. :-)
In the body of other posts, I am often admittedly high and tend to not want to edit a lot.
by willlinn on Dec 2, 2011 12:01 PM PST
by Klemson Krash on Dec 12, 2011 5:45 PM EST up reply actions
If the Pats get up by 17+
and Tebow leads them back to win w/out a D or ST touchdown, I will take back anything bad I’ve ever said about him…. which isn’t a whole lot, I just simply think his contributions have been overstated
DFA Heyward. I'm dead serious
by wpf3211 on Aug 6, 2011 9:11 PM EDT
I read an article a couple of weeks ago
that was talking about how the Bronco’s D is ruining the great 4th Quarter come-backs. Instead of coming back from 15-21 points down, Tebow only has to come back from being 3-10 points down.
The article went on to say how we are being robbed of witnessing true greatness because of how good Denver’s D is.
lol
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Dec 12, 2011 5:46 PM EST up reply actions
again, I agree everything Tebow has been overstated.
But… it’s so much fun to have a good news story these days… I’m just proud to be a fan of the NFL when I can see things like this happen.
In the body of other posts, I am often admittedly high and tend to not want to edit a lot.
by willlinn on Dec 2, 2011 12:01 PM PST
by Klemson Krash on Dec 12, 2011 5:47 PM EST up reply actions
And as far as wins as a useful measure of a QB
Tebow is 7-1 as a starter. During that same time, Tom Brady is 5-2. You would be hard pressed to find anyone that legitimately believes Tebow is better than Brady
DFA Heyward. I'm dead serious
by wpf3211 on Aug 6, 2011 9:11 PM EDT
Where did I say he's better than Brady?
but thanks for changing the argument to something that suits you.
It’s obvious that this team is better with him under center than KYLE ORTON (not Brady, and not in general, but this team, and with him vs. Orton).
Did I ever say it was a legitmate, all encompassing measure of a QB? No, you are making it out to be that, and putting words in my keyboard I never typed nor implied. But keep trying to spin arguments away from the simple facts that they are winning now, and weren’t under Orton. And however they are doing it is working, with Tebow taking snaps and being a part of that success. How big a part is debatable, that he’s a part is not.
http://sportsandgrits.com/
I'll say what needs to be said.
If/when Tebow’s Broncos win the superbowl or even a few playoff games… There will still be people who don’t care and want a change at QB for the Broncos because he’s not a standard drop back passer… shoot, he’s not even Mike Vick level passer… He is Tim Tebow and at the end of the day, if his defense wasn’t playing at the level they were, we would not be having this conversation and Tebow would probably already be holding a clipboard but what will it take for people to believe Tebow can play the position of QB? Two superbowls? Three? Explain to me why the defense is so much different now than it was during the Orton era. Please… There is this thing called Leadership. Tebow has that. He makes people around him better. Period. He is as good a leader as Brady or any other QB or player in the NFL is. Is he as good a passer? Nope… does he have to be? Nope.
In the body of other posts, I am often admittedly high and tend to not want to edit a lot.
by willlinn on Dec 2, 2011 12:01 PM PST
by Klemson Krash on Dec 12, 2011 4:51 PM EST up reply actions
The Broncos
will never win a super bowl with Tebow.
In fact, no run-first offense will win the SB under the current NFL rules. The rules favor the passing game.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Dec 12, 2011 4:53 PM EST up reply actions
Wanna make a wager on that?
In the body of other posts, I am often admittedly high and tend to not want to edit a lot.
by willlinn on Dec 2, 2011 12:01 PM PST
by Klemson Krash on Dec 12, 2011 5:00 PM EST up reply actions
On Tebow?
Absolutely.
Seriously, if you are offering me the field vs a RB playing QB, I will take the field every time – especially when the field includes the Packers, Steelers, Patriots, Saints, Giants and any other team with a good QB.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Dec 12, 2011 5:01 PM EST up reply actions
For the sheer sake of entertainment.
I take that bet. Specifically with Tebow. IF his team makes the playoffs.. I will be willing to bet they win the superbowl…
Why not… my team doesn’t have a horse in the race (Carolina)
In the body of other posts, I am often admittedly high and tend to not want to edit a lot.
by willlinn on Dec 2, 2011 12:01 PM PST
by Klemson Krash on Dec 12, 2011 5:11 PM EST up reply actions
Nor does mine (Jax)
Name your terms, good sir. I will accept anything.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Dec 12, 2011 5:21 PM EST up reply actions
When do you go to SOS?
Hopefully it will be after the superbowl… But I’m willing to bet, at a minimum, dinner and a ballgame (Biscuits)…
In the body of other posts, I am often admittedly high and tend to not want to edit a lot.
by willlinn on Dec 2, 2011 12:01 PM PST
by Klemson Krash on Dec 12, 2011 5:28 PM EST up reply actions
I’m not going to SOS any time soon – I haven’t even started the online version yet.
I have 0 motivation to do it. Ugh. I really, really, really get annoyed with Big Blue sometimes.
But hey, I can always try to find a boondoggle TDY to Maxwell! Especially if a free dinner is at stake! :)
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Dec 12, 2011 5:32 PM EST up reply actions
Then so the terms are set....
Big Blue is very interesting some time… I’m blessed to have not done SOS by correspondence… I think i would rather have a rabid monkey lick peanut butter off my… nevermind… back on topic… Dinner and a ballgame if Broncos WIN the superbowl with Tebow as QB…. mind you, this is a binding agreement for all future SBs while Tebow is a Bronco…
Is there an out clause in the event Tebow gets destroyed by a LB and ends up counting sheep in a hospital bed?
In the body of other posts, I am often admittedly high and tend to not want to edit a lot.
by willlinn on Dec 2, 2011 12:01 PM PST
by Klemson Krash on Dec 12, 2011 5:34 PM EST up reply actions
Tim Tebow
will never win a Super Bowl as the starting QB of the Denver Broncos.
That will be my bet. It is a statement that I will stand by forever.
And there is no out clause.
My only question is – Do I get a free dinner every year he doesn’t win?
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Dec 12, 2011 5:36 PM EST up reply actions
Haha... Hrm... fair statement...
I don’t think the Bronco’s will win the superbowl every year… maybe we need two separate bets… one for this year and one for the duration of the tenure of Tebow as a NFL QB…
In the body of other posts, I am often admittedly high and tend to not want to edit a lot.
by willlinn on Dec 2, 2011 12:01 PM PST
by Klemson Krash on Dec 12, 2011 5:43 PM EST up reply actions
I'll take the field
in both bets.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Dec 12, 2011 5:45 PM EST up reply actions
Only if you buy me a restaurant if he does.
Sgt.: Pointed stick? Oh, oh, oh. We want to learn how to defend ourselves against pointed sticks, do we? Getting all high and mighty, eh? Fresh fruit not good enough for you eh? Well I'll tell you something my lad. When you're walking home tonight and some great homicidal maniac comes after you with a bunch of loganberries, don't come crying to me! Now, the passion fruit.
No
Is there an out clause in the event Tebow gets destroyed by a LB and ends up counting sheep in a hospital bed?
No because Tebow should have used his will to make the LB fall down before he destroys him
DFA Heyward. I'm dead serious
by wpf3211 on Aug 6, 2011 9:11 PM EDT
Hahahahahah
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Dec 12, 2011 5:39 PM EST up reply actions
while most will deify Tebow... I will not..
That’s not his style… But it’s amazing how inexplicable things keep happening around him…
Who kicks a 59 yard field goal these days….
In the body of other posts, I am often admittedly high and tend to not want to edit a lot.
by willlinn on Dec 2, 2011 12:01 PM PST
by Klemson Krash on Dec 12, 2011 5:40 PM EST up reply actions
50+ yard FGs
Phil Dawson, David Akers, Robbie Gould, Janikowski, Scobee, Hanson, Rackers, Bironas, Novak, Folk, Prater, Gano, Succup, Kasay, Vinateri, Longwell, Rayner, Crosby, Barth, Haushka, Bailey, Feeley, Tynes, Cundiff, Bryant, Gostkowski and Carpenter.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Dec 12, 2011 5:44 PM EST up reply actions
google much?
and i said 59… there’s a different between 52 and 59…
In the body of other posts, I am often admittedly high and tend to not want to edit a lot.
by willlinn on Dec 2, 2011 12:01 PM PST
by Klemson Krash on Dec 12, 2011 5:45 PM EST up reply actions
Not google
ESPN stats.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Dec 12, 2011 5:47 PM EST up reply actions
Sebastian Janikowski warms up with 59 yd field goals
DFA Heyward. I'm dead serious
by wpf3211 on Aug 6, 2011 9:11 PM EDT
Go ahead and laugh, but I’d take Scobee against any kicker in the NFL right now.
Ok, maybe not with his hurt groin, but when healthy, Scobee has as much leg and accuracy as anyone.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Dec 12, 2011 5:47 PM EST up reply actions
Prater warms up w/ 70 yarders...
eat that. :-) thin colorado air is AWESOME.
In the body of other posts, I am often admittedly high and tend to not want to edit a lot.
by willlinn on Dec 2, 2011 12:01 PM PST
by Klemson Krash on Dec 12, 2011 5:48 PM EST up reply actions
missed that
pretty impressive… kills my joke, which I don’t like, but impressive indeed. I remember watching Mason Crosby at Colorado kickoff and damn near put it in the stands
DFA Heyward. I'm dead serious
by wpf3211 on Aug 6, 2011 9:11 PM EDT
One of the cooler things...
Robbie Gould (I think, memory may be failing) lines the ball at the back end of the end zone on one side and tries to hit the post with the ball head-on. Helps him kick straight.
-C
It’s rough to sit through these games and not have someone that can’t hit a Ball?
that's me... the joke killer...
don’t mess w/ me, i’ll take you out! muahaha… don’t you know the TC President has a posse that “takes care of the dirty work”?
In the body of other posts, I am often admittedly high and tend to not want to edit a lot.
by willlinn on Dec 2, 2011 12:01 PM PST
by Klemson Krash on Dec 13, 2011 9:49 AM EST up reply actions
Why is the D better?
fewer turnovers putting them in bad spots. Less time on the field for better rested players when they are out there.
http://sportsandgrits.com/
That's part of it
another part is a new D with new feature players under a new coach takes time to mature – especially with no training camps to speak of.
How much time? Well, usually 5-6 weeks.
Coincidence?
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Dec 12, 2011 4:57 PM EST up reply actions
So team playing as a team for the first time in the season
had absolutely nothing to do with a leader taking over the offense… no offense to Orton but he can’t hold a candle to the leadership skills of Tebow.
In the body of other posts, I am often admittedly high and tend to not want to edit a lot.
by willlinn on Dec 2, 2011 12:01 PM PST
by Klemson Krash on Dec 12, 2011 5:01 PM EST up reply actions
If Tebow were such a leader
why wasn’t he leading from the sidelines?
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Dec 12, 2011 5:01 PM EST up reply actions
Would you follow a Lt before he was promoted to a position over you?
In the body of other posts, I am often admittedly high and tend to not want to edit a lot.
by willlinn on Dec 2, 2011 12:01 PM PST
by Klemson Krash on Dec 12, 2011 5:11 PM EST up reply actions
If I were enlisted, sure. But a position /=/ leader.
Leadership is constant. If Tebow were so inspirational, why did he wait until he was a starter to rally the troops? Shouldn’t he have been giving them pep talks while wearing a headset?
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Dec 12, 2011 5:22 PM EST up reply actions
I'm sure he was but a great leader is also a great follower
as I know you know… and he wouldn’t want to step on the feet of those before him… As an assistant OIC, I can give all the pep talks I want but until my OIC gets fired, I dare not try to rally the troops unless I truly feel the ship is sinking… I try to give that person as much as I can to help them be a better leader… and who’s to say he didn’t do that?
In the body of other posts, I am often admittedly high and tend to not want to edit a lot.
by willlinn on Dec 2, 2011 12:01 PM PST
by Klemson Krash on Dec 12, 2011 5:29 PM EST up reply actions
At what point
do you consider the ship sinking? Is 1-4 not dire enough? lol
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Dec 12, 2011 5:33 PM EST up reply actions
1-4.... the ship is sinking and i'm sure conversations were taking place...
but there is only so much a 3rd string QB can say that people will listen to… I don’t care if Moses was the 3rd stringer… To be taken seriously, you have to be the man… and to be the man, you have to beat the man… WOOOOO… (sorry, inner Ric Flair jumped out)
In the body of other posts, I am often admittedly high and tend to not want to edit a lot.
by willlinn on Dec 2, 2011 12:01 PM PST
by Klemson Krash on Dec 12, 2011 5:36 PM EST up reply actions
Jesus?
If we can land [Stephen Drew], I will give FW a bj.
~justincredubil02
by king of games on Dec 12, 2011 4:48 PM EST up reply actions
Well, when the defense improves by a whole TD from one QB to another, I don’t think you can blame the previous QB.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Dec 12, 2011 4:27 PM EST up reply actions
See above, how much of that reduction in D allowing points
is because of a slower game, greater time of possession, fewer turnovers, etc.
Football is a team sport, and QB a big part of that team. And they are obviously doing something right with Tebow taking snaps that they weren’t with Orton under center. Keep coming up with excuses for it, when all that really matters is they keep getting Ws.
Personally, I think you’re just jealous of a QB that can match your boy Gabbert in completion %, yet find a way to win in spite of it.
http://sportsandgrits.com/
Ugh. Gabbert. Don’t get me started. I never wanted to draft him, let alone trade away picks to move up to draft him.
Worst decision Gene Smith has made yet!
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Dec 12, 2011 4:41 PM EST up reply actions
I thought he was bad as well
but we’ll never know unless he gets some legit WR’s to throw too
DFA Heyward. I'm dead serious
by wpf3211 on Aug 6, 2011 9:11 PM EDT
Good WRs won’t help him stop ducking away from the DLs when they come after him.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Dec 12, 2011 4:45 PM EST up reply actions
Why are there so many comments about football in this post?
Geez.
I don’t always find things on TC exciting and gripping, but when they are, I prefer: Duwanis
by Santaklose11 on Dec 2, 2011 6:08 PM EST
lack of actual Braves activity other than random speculation?
speaking of, have we non-tendered Moylan yet?
DFA Heyward. I'm dead serious
by wpf3211 on Aug 6, 2011 9:11 PM EDT
not yet.
In the body of other posts, I am often admittedly high and tend to not want to edit a lot.
by willlinn on Dec 2, 2011 12:01 PM PST
by Klemson Krash on Dec 12, 2011 5:01 PM EST up reply actions
It's true
I’m having a conversation with myself.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Dec 12, 2011 5:37 PM EST up reply actions
You don't recognize these things always seem to have you as part of them?
there is a common thread man.
http://sportsandgrits.com/
Not just him... :)
I don’t always find things on TC exciting and gripping, but when they are, I prefer: Duwanis
by Santaklose11 on Dec 2, 2011 6:08 PM EST
Sorry
for starting conversation on a blog…
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Dec 12, 2011 5:40 PM EST up reply actions
I love how you said
please don’t mention Tebow’s name because you were so sick of hearing it and that comment alone sparked about 2000 comments on Tebow. Haha, it was poetic.
FTR, I’m a Broncos fan and got banned from Mile High Report 5 weeks ago for calling people dipshits for “deifying” Tebow. It wasn’t that I didn’t want Tebow to succeed, I just thought handing Tebow the keys to the city was a little premature. Alas, I can’t even go back and eat crow.
/TebowTebowTebowTebowTebow
(10 more times, just for fun)
https://twitter.com/#!/kreese555
Sometimes, doing the opposite of what Justin wants..
brings joy to the masses… Anytime there’s a reason to let him argue until he has nothing left to say, it’s a great thing.
In the body of other posts, I am often admittedly high and tend to not want to edit a lot.
by willlinn on Dec 2, 2011 12:01 PM PST
by Klemson Krash on Dec 13, 2011 9:50 AM EST up reply actions
Better be careful
If you say that fifteen times in front of a mirror, you’ll summon his vengeful spirit.
I don’t always find things on TC exciting and gripping, but when they are, I prefer: Duwanis
by Santaklose11 on Dec 2, 2011 6:08 PM EST
Hey Sanchez...
I did it this time and I’m happily having a football conversation (which I didn’t mean to start) on a slow news day in baseball… I wish the Braves had something to talk about but at the same time, i don’t… I’ve stated a few times how happy I am we are taking our time and doing whatever is good for the longterm health of our franchise.
In the body of other posts, I am often admittedly high and tend to not want to edit a lot.
by willlinn on Dec 2, 2011 12:01 PM PST
by Klemson Krash on Dec 12, 2011 5:41 PM EST up reply actions
TEBOW TEBOW TEBOW
"It breaks your heart. It is designed to break your heart. The game begins in the spring, when everything else begins again, and it blossoms in the summer, filling the afternoons and evenings, and then as soon as the chill rains come, it stops and leaves you to face the fall alone." A. Bartlett Giamatti
LoL
Pelican. :-)
In the body of other posts, I am often admittedly high and tend to not want to edit a lot.
by willlinn on Dec 2, 2011 12:01 PM PST
by Klemson Krash on Dec 12, 2011 3:43 PM EST up reply actions
I do so love making you giggle...
it’s been too long.
In the body of other posts, I am often admittedly high and tend to not want to edit a lot.
by willlinn on Dec 2, 2011 12:01 PM PST
by Klemson Krash on Dec 12, 2011 3:43 PM EST up reply actions
Poor Brooks. I like the man. Which is why I wouldn’t be a very good GM, I guess.
Celebrating 60 years of NBC News Today, January 14, 1952 - January 14, 2012
I like him too...
But I just can’t see it continuing. It’s too big a sacrifice for too little reward.
-C
It’s rough to sit through these games and not have someone that can’t hit a Ball?
This is the crux of the matter, and Fredi’s righteous refusal to give him meaningful starter innings inherently limits his value.
Sgt.: Pointed stick? Oh, oh, oh. We want to learn how to defend ourselves against pointed sticks, do we? Getting all high and mighty, eh? Fresh fruit not good enough for you eh? Well I'll tell you something my lad. When you're walking home tonight and some great homicidal maniac comes after you with a bunch of loganberries, don't come crying to me! Now, the passion fruit.
Not just Fredi....
Bobby gave him the same amount of starts, until both Chipper and Prado went down. It may have even been fewer starts prior to that.
-C
It’s rough to sit through these games and not have someone that can’t hit a Ball?
I still think that we should keep Brandon Hicks on the roster as the backup SS/3B/2B option. He has a great glove and a good arm and hits a few homers every now and then. He’d be more than serviceable as a backup in the majors IMHO, especially playing those 3 positions.
I think Hicks will be given every opportunity in spring training to prove his mettle and win a roster spot – has nice potential – just hasn’t performed at the big league level yet albeit a small sample.
by bravesfaninchitown on Dec 12, 2011 2:21 PM EST up reply actions
i was wondering this too
Surely there is a team out there that would want him on their major league roster.. A team without Hinske might really want Conrad
I’ve always liked Conrad….probably cause I’ve always liked the underdog….. Lets resign Raffy B? Lol.
Pujols is NOT God.... sure he'll hit .350, hit 50 bombs, and drive in a 125....but then again...so will Heyward..
by lemke2blauser2bream on Dec 12, 2011 2:42 PM EST via mobile reply actions
I approve of this plan.
Belliard for SS 2012!
I don’t always find things on TC exciting and gripping, but when they are, I prefer: Duwanis
by Santaklose11 on Dec 2, 2011 6:08 PM EST
so long as it's not Ronnie... I'm all in...
who doesn’t need an all glove, no hit SS… oh wait.. didn’t we just let one go?
In the body of other posts, I am often admittedly high and tend to not want to edit a lot.
by willlinn on Dec 2, 2011 12:01 PM PST
by Klemson Krash on Dec 12, 2011 2:59 PM EST up reply actions
The Braves need to make some upgrades to most definitely include the bench. Unfortunately for Conrad, he is a one tool, end of the bench player who simply can not fill a needed role. But by no means is it a raw deal. Instead, it is very simply that the team needs to build the strongest possible25 man roster and position itself to compete for a world championship.
I don't see how this is a "raw deal"
Conrad was always either the 24th or 25th guy on the roster. Our roster needs happen to be different now. This happens all the time. Not much to see here, at least to me. Of course, given our quiet winter (which I think is fine, probably correct, just boring) we have to talk about something, right?
Conrad is to hitting, what a 103 MPH thrower is in a bullpen...
They both have a place on a team but at the end of the day, they only do one good thing. Conrad hits the ball… hard… when he makes contact…
The 103 MPH thrower throws the ball… hard… but rarely hits the strike zone…
Who doesn’t love a thumper on the bench who knows how to come up huge when it matters most? Problem is, there is no consistency in his performance. If there was, he’d be a DH in the AL already. I love Brooksie but there just isn’t a place for him on this Braves team. As much as I’d like to say he can play 3B or 2B or whatever, it’s more like he just occupies the space and we all hold our breath when a pitch is thrown hoping it doesn’t get hit in his zip code… Kinda the same way you hold your breath when a flame thrower throws his fastball… You just pray the batter will have a head when the ball gets to the catcher… when it’s a strike, you chear… when it’s a ball, you shrug… You accept the wildly ineffectiveness of the guy cause he can throw 100+ MPH for about an inning… Well we accept the wildly ineffectiveness of a guy who endeared himself to us by mashing GW homeruns when our memory worked the best…
At the end of the day, a team will pick him up and give him a shot and he will endear himselves to their fans just as he has to us… I love Brooksie but that roster spot has a better purpose. I don’t know what that is but hopefully FW does and has a plan. I hope the separation is classy too… Brooks deserves nothing less as he’s been a stand up guy for us and I wish him nothing less the the best in his future endeavors.
In the body of other posts, I am often admittedly high and tend to not want to edit a lot.
by willlinn on Dec 2, 2011 12:01 PM PST
i wouldn’t be so sure someone picks him up. he’ll be 32 with a very poor resume. he should be grateful he realized his dream and had a moment or two with atlanta. this is the end of the line though.
by SidBreamsSlide on Dec 12, 2011 4:06 PM EST up reply actions
In the world of the DH where there are some real nobodies holding down jobs in the AL, Brooks is not done. People will see what he did on a big stage, give him a shot and he will have a Gabe Gross like ST and get the job then turn into the PH he really is and life will go on. He is not done as a MLB player. You’re too harsh.
In the body of other posts, I am often admittedly high and tend to not want to edit a lot.
by willlinn on Dec 2, 2011 12:01 PM PST
by Klemson Krash on Dec 12, 2011 4:10 PM EST up reply actions
perhaps but very unlikely. if you were referring to his .215 ba as a ph the past couple years as his performing on the big stage, you are probably hurting his cause. again, if ostensibly you only possess one skill, hitting, you better be damn good at it. brooks isn’t.
it’s no biggie. life will go on. someone new will endear himself to us braves fans and we’ll move on.
by SidBreamsSlide on Dec 12, 2011 4:22 PM EST up reply actions
A proven contributor…
Really? a 2011 line of .223 .325 .388 .713 and a career line of 229 .305 .428 .733 is no good for a no-defense player.
Conrad was rewarded with his exceptional 2010 by making the team in 2011 when he probably deserved to be cut in Spring Training.
Holding on to him because he hit a walk off grand slam 2 years ago is a mistake. There are much better options out there.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Dec 12, 2011 3:41 PM EST reply actions
this.
The idea that he would get a raw deal by the front office cutting him and actually improving the team with another player is silly. That’s the way of the world.
Guess what? If Brooks could catch the eff-bombing ball, he might have a spot on the team next year. But he can’t, so he probably doesn’t.
You'd think I was Travis Tritt struttin my FINE ASS on down to Florida
That actually isn’t terrible from the bench. Sure the batting average looks ugly but the OBP is solid, and I seem to remember several balls hit by Brooks this year that were close to extra bases/HRs, so given the small sample size we can assume that that Slug % is towards the bottom of his ability (compare it to his career slugging which differs by 40 points or 12%.)
It should also be noted that, though he is a switch hitter, he hits lefties much better than righties (I’m too lazy to analyze or post the stats but the slug% differs by about .050.) Which is something that is valuable to this Braves lineup.
Sgt.: Pointed stick? Oh, oh, oh. We want to learn how to defend ourselves against pointed sticks, do we? Getting all high and mighty, eh? Fresh fruit not good enough for you eh? Well I'll tell you something my lad. When you're walking home tonight and some great homicidal maniac comes after you with a bunch of loganberries, don't come crying to me! Now, the passion fruit.
Legit question...
is Conrad out of options going in to this next season? Basically, if we wanted to start the year with him in AAA, would he have to clear waivers to get there?
http://sportsandgrits.com/
isn’t there some sort of magical service time where being opted to AAA is no longer a possibility?
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Dec 12, 2011 3:52 PM EST up reply actions
Don’t think clearing waivers would really be much of an issue.
If we can land [Stephen Drew], I will give FW a bj.
~justincredubil02
by king of games on Dec 12, 2011 4:05 PM EST up reply actions
just to think
all this uproar over someone who’d easily clear waivers that no other team wants. . . . . .meanwhile we are apparently trying hard to rid ourselves of a very useful player with a good bat smh
by drumzalicious on Dec 12, 2011 8:11 PM EST up reply actions
I'm not sure how he's useful anymore
Unless our goal is to get the opposing pitcher’s K numbers up…
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Dec 12, 2011 8:53 PM EST up reply actions
If a player is on the 40-man roster but not on the active major league roster, he is said to be on optional assignment—his organization may freely move him between the major league club and the minor league club. The rules for this are as follows. (In all cases, an assignment of a player on a major-league disabled list to the minors while on a rehabilitation assignment does not count as time spent in the minors.)
Once a player has been placed on a team’s 40-man roster, a team has 3 options on that player.
A player is considered to have used one of those three options when he spends at least 20 days in the minors in any of those 3 seasons.
A team may have a fourth option on a player with less than five full seasons of professional experience, provided that both conditions are met below.
If a player has 5 years of major-league service, he may not be assigned to a minor-league team without his consent, regardless of whether he has already been outrighted once, even if he clears waivers. If the player withholds consent, the team must either release him or keep him on the major league roster. In either case, the player must continue to be paid under the terms of his contract. If he is released and signs with a new team, his previous team must pay the difference in salary between the two contracts if the previous contract called for a greater salary.
Brooks Conrad has 2.078 yrs of service time so far and is still Pre-Arb. So we can keep him at league minimum w/ no repercussions and I believe he still has options left.
In the body of other posts, I am often admittedly high and tend to not want to edit a lot.
by willlinn on Dec 2, 2011 12:01 PM PST
by Klemson Krash on Dec 12, 2011 4:06 PM EST up reply actions
I'd think so too,...
just not sure if we used the first 2 years ago, then the remaining 2 the last two seasons when he was up essentially full time.
http://sportsandgrits.com/
to use an option, you have to send him down... and if my calculations are correct...
he has at least 1 option remaining.
In the body of other posts, I am often admittedly high and tend to not want to edit a lot.
by willlinn on Dec 2, 2011 12:01 PM PST
by Klemson Krash on Dec 12, 2011 4:52 PM EST up reply actions
He has an option year left IIRC, which means we can stash him at AAA in case of an injury to Hinske or Diaz.
Q: If not us, who? If not now, when? A: The Batman. And "when you least expect it."
Get rid of Frank Wren
He’s Doing Atlanta the same way with the team he came from. Always a second place team and never won a championship. The same thing is happening to Atlanta.
by jayball on Dec 12, 2011 5:58 PM EST reply actions 4 recs
OGT'd for great justice.
I don’t always find things on TC exciting and gripping, but when they are, I prefer: Duwanis
by Santaklose11 on Dec 2, 2011 6:08 PM EST
I’m wondering when the Orioles were ever a 2nd place team under Wren?
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Dec 12, 2011 6:03 PM EST up reply actions
I thought he was only a gm that 99 season when they sucked.
by drumzalicious on Dec 12, 2011 8:08 PM EST up reply actions
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Dec 12, 2011 6:00 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
If we didnt have Hinske then yea I’d keep him around but the fact of the matter is he doesn’t play reliable defense anywhere and we need guys on our bench who can back up the INF and OF.
To be honest Diaz should be moved as well for someone who could play all OF spots. Would have liked to have gotten someone like Felix Pie. Not that great of a bat but fits the role of a 4th OF better than Diaz.
Wrong thread
We’re talking about Tebow here. Maybe you should start a fanpost or something instead of jumping in with a whole new topic.
I don’t always find things on TC exciting and gripping, but when they are, I prefer: Duwanis
by Santaklose11 on Dec 2, 2011 6:08 PM EST
no announcement on Moylan or anyone else being non-tendered until tomorrow
deadline isn’t til midnight
DFA Heyward. I'm dead serious
by wpf3211 on Aug 6, 2011 9:11 PM EDT
Moylo tweeted "...I guess I'm a free agent" about 2 hours ago
so I imagine he was non-tendered. Not that it should be a big surprise to everyone.
I don’t always find things on TC exciting and gripping, but when they are, I prefer: Duwanis
by Santaklose11 on Dec 2, 2011 6:08 PM EST
Baseball teams, like all competitive entities, must act in their self-interest. The simple fact of the matter is that Conrad does not benefit the Atlanta Braves in the big picture. The single thing he can do is pinch-hit. And while we can argue his efficacy in that point can be argued, the point is that a place on the rosterr should not be reserved for 23 hits at a .223 clip with a .223/.325/.388 slash line.
While pretty decent for a guy off the bench (97 OPS+) this is literally the only value he provides. That is simply not good enough.
The point, however, is not to disparage Conrad. I’m not calling for his instant dismissal, or claiming that we should move on. But we cannot be so committed to a bench guy that we refuse to look at better alternatives. And better alternatives do exist. But don’t get me wrong I love the guy. I love him for his walk-off grand-slam and the bravery he showed after what has to have been his worst moment in sports (just imagine a guy who is quite obviously flush with heart having to deal with costing his team a crucial play-off game, then imagine having to show up for work the next day, and even more difficult, signing autographs in the off-season and facing the fans.)
But the fact that he can’t play defense really hurts this team. With the fragility of Chipper and Fredi’s penchant for off-days, a premium is put on the flexibility of our bench players. For instance, Fredi’s unwillingness to play Conrad in the defense (which is not totally off-base, he is irrefutably a liability) means that our other bench players are given more game time, thus increasing their impact on the game/season.
So if you believe that Conrad is an important part of our bench (perhaps because he is “clutch” perhaps because he gets reasonable results as a pinch hitter,) then it is really necessary to get a great utility player who can start games when the need arises, allowing Conrad to focus purely on pinch hitting.
But even this scenario comes back to the original question, is Conrad the maximum value you can get from a roster spot?
Sgt.: Pointed stick? Oh, oh, oh. We want to learn how to defend ourselves against pointed sticks, do we? Getting all high and mighty, eh? Fresh fruit not good enough for you eh? Well I'll tell you something my lad. When you're walking home tonight and some great homicidal maniac comes after you with a bunch of loganberries, don't come crying to me! Now, the passion fruit.
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