Atlanta Braves Decline To Offer Alex Gonzalez Arbitration
by cbwilk on Nov 23, 2011 12:09 PM EST
in Braves Related Free Agents
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Today the Atlanta Braves announce they have declined to offer Alex Gonzalez arbitration. Gonzalez, the team's starting shortstop for the last year and a half, was a Type B free agent and could have netted the Braves a supplemental draft pick as compensation had they offered him arbitration and he signed with a new team. The decision was financially driven however, as Gonzalez likely would have received a substantial raise over his 2.5 million dollar 2011 salary through the arbitration process. The team is still able to negotiate with him and his chances of returning for 2012 have neither improved nor diminished with this transaction. 2011 was Gonzalez's 13th season in the Major Leagues, and one of his worst offensively, as he hit just .241 with a .642 OPS, 27 doubles, 15 homers, and 56 RBI, though he was outstanding in the field.
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Sea Bass...
Fun to watch in the field, not so much at the plate. Why did they trade for him again? Whatever happened to the guy they gave up? What was his name? Yunel or something? Was he any good offensively?
"I wasn’t thinking about it. That’s the worst celebration of all time. I didn’t know what to do. I got lost in the moment." - Brian McCann
by HansonManCrush on Nov 23, 2011 12:22 PM EST via mobile reply actions
I am a bit surprised by this.
I know the Braves are gunshy after the Maddux incident and the Soriano incident, but this seemed like a no-brainer. We wouldn’t mind him as a back-up, and our problem with resigning him is that he wants multiple years (and probably will get them somewhere). Hence, arbitration seemed perfect; he could be the bridge to Pastornicky on a one-year deal, and $3-$3.5 million really isn’t that much.
If we are so worried about that $3 million, it makes me wonder what we are planning. Frank Wren, what the hell are you up to?
This is Wren's response....
Wren: “We’re working out a deal for Reyes. Are there more questions?”
by CaliforniaBrave on Nov 23, 2011 12:58 PM EST up reply actions
I would be extremely disappointed
Chopmaster: my link is my dad who has watched the braves since I don’t know. he’s 56.
And yet somehow an upgrade offensively.
(Not that I’m advocating the Braves throw a pile of money at Reyes.)
"Jason Heyward was a Greek philosopher reincarnated as a baseball player." - Don Sutton
he would definitely be an upgrade but it would be pointless to sign him and tie up that kind of money in him. It would handicap this team financially.
by drumzalicious on Nov 23, 2011 10:37 PM EST up reply actions
Not if the coffers are about to explode….
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Nov 24, 2011 12:38 AM EST up reply actions
So we'd need Mark Cuban too.....
"He knows where he's throwing. If he didn't, there'd be dead bodies strewn all over Idaho." - Washington Senators scout on Walter Johnson
Ha ha ha ha ha! Oh Frank Wren. You are hilarious! Just like early this year when you were working to trade Kawakami … ha ha ha ha ha! It hurts I’m laughing so hard. Stop it! You’re killing me!
I guess it’ll be Jack Wilson at SS. Not enthused about that.
Frank Wren
traded Lowe, didn’t he? But yeah, if Wilson is our other option, I’d rather plug in Pastornicky and see how he does.
"Some people give their bodies to science. I gave mine to baseball." -- Ron Hunt
Given the market, even if the Braves had retained Seabass via arbitration, I think a trade would have been pretty easy to pull off later. This surprises me (though I expect he would have declined an offer).
"Forget Roy Halladay or Clayton Kershaw or Cliff Lee, the NL Cy Young Award should go to O’Ventrel." - David Schoenfield, ESPN.com, 8/19/11
I'm still holding out hope...
We need to sign him for 1 yr at about $3M. Give him some hitting incentives. For example, if he hits .300 with and OBP of .300 and 20 HRs a 2nd yr will vest for $3.5M. Thoughts???
by CaliforniaBrave on Nov 23, 2011 12:33 PM EST reply actions
But if we were willing to do this...
…we would have offered arbitration. He isn’t going to hit .300 or 20 HR either. It still begs the question—-what is our plan at SS?
if he hits .300 with an OBP of .300
An OBP equal to his batting average? Yeah, sounds like Sea Bass.
by swainzy on Nov 23, 2011 1:47 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
Yeah
If you get around 10 walks in a season, you could easily get that many Sac flies to even things out.
My buddy and I just decided that the braves would be set if we could get Matt Kemp, Jose Reyes, and Albert Pujols.
by willlinn on May 17, 2011 2:13 PM EDT
You would give him a raise after being one of the worst offensive players in baseball for the entire time he’s been in Atlanta?
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Nov 24, 2011 12:40 AM EST up reply actions
But he's not a clubhouse cancer!
"Jason Heyward was a Greek philosopher reincarnated as a baseball player." - Don Sutton
And he has a great attitude and runs out every ground ball!
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Nov 24, 2011 1:33 AM EST up reply actions
He actually doesn’t…which disappoints me. Still, Escobar was clubhouse cancer. You can’t just ignore it because there’s no line in the stat sheet for it.
I wrote a novel, it's about baseball, you should buy it:
http://www.amazon.com/Four-C-B-Wilkins/dp/1449578454/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1257720610&sr=1-1
www.dropoutproductions.com
I know he doesn’t. I guess I left the sarcasm font off.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Nov 24, 2011 11:31 AM EST up reply actions
No, I got it, I just wanted to point out that even as a guy who is fine with Gonzalez at short he does things I’m not happy about.
I wrote a novel, it's about baseball, you should buy it:
http://www.amazon.com/Four-C-B-Wilkins/dp/1449578454/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1257720610&sr=1-1
www.dropoutproductions.com
http://www.talkingchop.com/2010/7/15/1571763/ranting-and-raving-escobar-v
WTF, what is up with all the people that said they liked it and loved it. Wow, that is pretty shocking, wonder if those same people still like it/love it now, lol.
I don’t care if Constanza hit .500 with 30 HRs and 150 RBI in 3 weeks, benching Heyward was a stupid decision.
by justincredubil02 on Oct 24, 2011 9:55 AM EDT
I did and I do.
I wrote a novel, it's about baseball, you should buy it:
http://www.amazon.com/Four-C-B-Wilkins/dp/1449578454/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1257720610&sr=1-1
www.dropoutproductions.com
Why did you like it? I don’t get it, I never liked the deal, and I think Escobar being a clubhouse cancer was overblown, but maybe you think it wasn’t and that is reason you were for Escobar to be gone. Maybe you can elaborate though…
I don’t care if Constanza hit .500 with 30 HRs and 150 RBI in 3 weeks, benching Heyward was a stupid decision.
by justincredubil02 on Oct 24, 2011 9:55 AM EDT
Escobar wasn’t long for ATL, and likely was going to keep struggling here due to the culture.
A-Gon was at least adequate overall, Collins was half of a deal that got the Braves into the playoffs in 2010, and Pastornicky’s going to be at least a good utility guy.
WTF?
“… likely was going to keep struggling here due to the culture.”
Have you seen his numbers here? Even during his 2 months of “struggling” he blows Alex Gonzalez out of the water offensively.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Nov 24, 2011 12:42 AM EST up reply actions
Escobar was a clubhouse cancer. The guys couldn’t stand him. If you can’t play for Bobby Cox there’s really no place in the game for you. Whatever Escobar has done offensively in Toronto he wasn’t going to try hard enough to do it in Atlanta (and if you look at the home-road splits with Toronto something fishy is going on wit their stadium that’s inflating his numbers). They got a guy who plays great defense and give predictable, if pathetic, offense and they got an undervalued prospect who might just end up being the starting shortstop this season. And they got both for cheaper than they would have with Escobar. It was a good move that really had to happen because of the guy’s piss poor attitude.
I wrote a novel, it's about baseball, you should buy it:
http://www.amazon.com/Four-C-B-Wilkins/dp/1449578454/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1257720610&sr=1-1
www.dropoutproductions.com
If you've never managed people...
I don’t think you’ll ever get the concept of how one player, not respecting team concepts and expectations, obstructs getting full effort and buy-in from everyone on the team.
"Reach down in there...TURN THAT DAMN THING UP!" - Coach Paul Johnson
by TBuzz on Nov 23, 2011 2:31 PM EST up reply actions 3 recs
Again, having a real clubhouse cancer on a team is NOT good, I am not advocating it is. And if he really was, then good riddance to him. I think it was overblown, just my opinion on it though.
I don’t care if Constanza hit .500 with 30 HRs and 150 RBI in 3 weeks, benching Heyward was a stupid decision.
by justincredubil02 on Oct 24, 2011 9:55 AM EDT
Well, obviously, I think your wrong. I don’t think enough was made of it. When a guy is so bad they up and say, he’s got to go, it’s bad.
I wrote a novel, it's about baseball, you should buy it:
http://www.amazon.com/Four-C-B-Wilkins/dp/1449578454/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1257720610&sr=1-1
www.dropoutproductions.com
Maybe I am wrong, but Chipper Jones admitted he didn’t want to see him traded, he said this during the 2011 season, if he really thought it was a problem, he would have said, yes good riddance. Because, Escobar was already in Toronto, so woudln’t be a big deal for Chipper to say that. But, it makes me really think since Chipper didn’t want to see him go, that the whole thing was just overblown. Chipper isn’t going to sit there and lie like that, I don’t think he thought it was a problem at all…
I don’t care if Constanza hit .500 with 30 HRs and 150 RBI in 3 weeks, benching Heyward was a stupid decision.
by justincredubil02 on Oct 24, 2011 9:55 AM EDT
A good manager does not fire. He hires and inspires.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Nov 24, 2011 12:42 AM EST up reply actions
Great reference to Michael Scott!
That-a-boy, let the athlete catch it Chipper! - Tom Glavine
The only sport where the defense has the ball. - Ken Burns' Baseball
So true I had to rec
I manage guys in a print shop in Tn. We have this one “particular” who I often have referred to privately as a clubhouse cancer. He exhibits everything you’ve stated. He’s also one of the most skilled pressman in the shop. However his antics outweigh his talent & he’s detrimental to the overall harmony of the operations. It effects the performance of all. As I’ve said before, one bad apple might not spoil the whole bunch but it sure can stink up the joint. I’m not an Esco hater. I wish he would’ve worked out. He didn’t & I understand why.
"People ask me what I do in winter when there's no baseball. I'll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring." Rogers Hornsby
If he was really as bad as some think, then fine, I can understand. Again, I don’t think it was as bad as people say. Look at my reply to fandave…
I don’t care if Constanza hit .500 with 30 HRs and 150 RBI in 3 weeks, benching Heyward was a stupid decision.
by justincredubil02 on Oct 24, 2011 9:55 AM EDT
I think Escobar being a clubhouse cancer was overblown
Based on what facts?! The hands-on decision-makers with actual knowledge of the actual situation and circumstances, Cox and Wren, pretty obviously thought otherwise. So, please enlighten us, why exactly do you maintain the contrary view?
All the time things get overblown. Chipper Jones went on record this year saying he never wanted Escobar traded. I think that is enough right there to warrant that the situation was overblown, otherwise since Escobar has been long gone, no reason for Chipper to even say anything positive, he could just say good riddance to him openly.
I don’t care if Constanza hit .500 with 30 HRs and 150 RBI in 3 weeks, benching Heyward was a stupid decision.
by justincredubil02 on Oct 24, 2011 9:55 AM EDT
+1 haha
"What up? We're three cool guys looking for other cool guys who wanna hang out in our party mansion. Nothing sexual. Dudes in good shape encouraged. If you're fat, you should be able to find humor in the little things." Again, NOTHING SEXUAL
"I'd rather jerk off a tiger in a phone booth than draft Cam"
-Mel Kiper, Jr.
you guys are like a bunch of pirahnas
by chop goes da weazel on Mar 31, 2011 12:32 PM PDT
by MikeTrain on Nov 23, 2011 7:49 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Didn’t mean to bring it up, but just thought it was funny that people loved/liked the trade. I never liked the trade, but I accepted it, Wren was clearly pushed to make the trade. And I don’t think Pastornicky will ever be a good enough SS to stick in the majors from all the reports I heard about him.
I don’t care if Constanza hit .500 with 30 HRs and 150 RBI in 3 weeks, benching Heyward was a stupid decision.
by justincredubil02 on Oct 24, 2011 9:55 AM EDT
I don't understand this
Was Gonzo really going to make more than 3-3.5M? If he declines, we get a pick. If he accepts, we have a stopgap until Pastornicky is ready.
I think the point is that we want to spend less than $3M (i.e., no more than $2.5M) on SS this season, or at least on an SS with Alex-like production.
We can still sign him to a one-year deal for $2.5M or something similar again. This hasn’t been a step towards going in a completely different direction SS-wise.
by Ivan the Great on Nov 23, 2011 1:23 PM EST up reply actions
They're
Gonna go cheap, this team has no money
"I wasn’t thinking about it. That’s the worst celebration of all time. I didn’t know what to do. I got lost in the moment." - Brian McCann
by HansonManCrush on Nov 23, 2011 1:58 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Let's see...
The team needs someone who can play IF and LF… Kelly Johnson anyone? He played SS in MiLB
"I wasn’t thinking about it. That’s the worst celebration of all time. I didn’t know what to do. I got lost in the moment." - Brian McCann
by HansonManCrush on Nov 23, 2011 1:14 PM EST via mobile reply actions
Why don’t we just put Prado/Frenchy/FUGA at short then?
by Ivan the Great on Nov 23, 2011 1:24 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
If that’s a viable plan then why not play Chipper at SS? Just cause a guy played there a decade ago doesn’t mean he can anymore. Also, Kelly Johnson hasn’t played in the outfield since 2005, I don’t understand why people keep talking like he’s played there regularly.
I wrote a novel, it's about baseball, you should buy it:
http://www.amazon.com/Four-C-B-Wilkins/dp/1449578454/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1257720610&sr=1-1
www.dropoutproductions.com
Wait...
Did Prado play the OF regularly prior to 2011?
"I wasn’t thinking about it. That’s the worst celebration of all time. I didn’t know what to do. I got lost in the moment." - Brian McCann
by HansonManCrush on Nov 23, 2011 1:29 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
No, he didn’t. And I’ll concede your point, Johnson could move back to the outfield pretty easily. It’s just baffling to me that people constantly call him a 2B-LF, when he’s only played 2B the last 5 seasons.
And if this pertains in any way to Johnson moving back to SS that’s just ridiculous, cause moving to the outfield is relatively easy.
I wrote a novel, it's about baseball, you should buy it:
http://www.amazon.com/Four-C-B-Wilkins/dp/1449578454/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1257720610&sr=1-1
www.dropoutproductions.com
I don't claim
To know anymore about this game than anyone, if fact i know less than most people here. It just seems to me the team has next to no money and is looking to bring in cheaper guys who can play multiple positions. I threw out Kelly’s name because I could and his sub-.200 .obp fits the team model and he’s played multiple positions in the past.
"I wasn’t thinking about it. That’s the worst celebration of all time. I didn’t know what to do. I got lost in the moment." - Brian McCann
by HansonManCrush on Nov 23, 2011 1:40 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Even if Johnson could play SS, which he can’t, he made 5.85 million dollars last year, more than twice what Gonzalez made, and he had a better offensive season than Gonzalez. If they Braves are worried they might have to pay Gonzalez more than 3 million, then they certainly wouldn’t be able to sign Johnson, who’s in line to make considerably more than 3 million.
I wrote a novel, it's about baseball, you should buy it:
http://www.amazon.com/Four-C-B-Wilkins/dp/1449578454/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1257720610&sr=1-1
www.dropoutproductions.com
had TJ on his thowing shoulder, moved to 2B
he can’t MAKE the throws anymore.
by JoelGuzman'sScout on Nov 23, 2011 3:32 PM EST up reply actions
Three things came to mind when I read this article
1. FW has enough confidence that there is a shortstop available via trade or free agency that will provide equitable value at 2.5 million or below
2. T Past is close enough to MLB ready to risk him not producing right away offensively( and having a possibly noticeable let down defensively)
3. Simmons is similar season or two away from being considered a MLB stater in the eyes of the Braves
any thoughts?
…and with yesterday’s signings, I believe we have further protection at SS.
That said…. can we move to the American League for 2012 and DH for the SS position??
"Forget Roy Halladay or Clayton Kershaw or Cliff Lee, the NL Cy Young Award should go to O’Ventrel." - David Schoenfield, ESPN.com, 8/19/11
That would be illegal to do, even in the AL.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Nov 24, 2011 12:44 AM EST up reply actions
Agree
There is ML level talent ready to play, and internal options for the short- and long-term future…FW only needs to fill the position for half to a full season realistically…
"Reach down in there...TURN THAT DAMN THING UP!" - Coach Paul Johnson
by TBuzz on Nov 23, 2011 4:42 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
2011 wasn't really one of Alex Gonzalez's worst offensive seasons
It was slightly worse than an average year from him. He is what he is.
My buddy and I just decided that the braves would be set if we could get Matt Kemp, Jose Reyes, and Albert Pujols.
by willlinn on May 17, 2011 2:13 PM EDT
Before the season his averages were .248/.294/.402/.695, this year he put up .241/.270/.372/.642, that’s 24 points down on OBP (2nd worst of his career), 30 points down on his slugging (5th worst of his career) and 53 points down on his OPS (4th worst of his career. Over a 12 year career I’d say that makes it one of his worst, and considerably below his career averages, not slightly worse. Though he certainly is what he is.
I wrote a novel, it's about baseball, you should buy it:
http://www.amazon.com/Four-C-B-Wilkins/dp/1449578454/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1257720610&sr=1-1
www.dropoutproductions.com
Surprised by this move and I got to wonder
if Frank Wren already has someone lined up as the stopgap SS for next year? I’m annoyed that Alex Gonzalez couldn’t sign with someone before this so the Braves could get a pick.
by LEastCoastBears on Nov 23, 2011 5:28 PM EST reply actions
Not sure I understand
Free agents are free to sign with any club as soon as the season is over. However, hardly any ever do before waiting to see if their previous team will offer them arbitration, because the arb offer is a bargaining chip to use in negotiations. Somebody correct me if I’m wrong, but I think that if a free agent signs with a new team before the arb deadline, the old team automatically gets the compensation.
"Some people give their bodies to science. I gave mine to baseball." -- Ron Hunt
I think
the team is just going to roll with Pastornicky as their opening day SS. Josh Wilson will probably be this teams Utility Infielder and if Pastornicky struggles he will be the teams everyday SS.
I think Wren will try to add offense in LF and just expect to have a glove first kind of SS.
Drew Sutton
His signing last week barely got any pub, but he could be a great backup for Pastornicky at SS, as well as the 5 other positions he can play adequately. I think he helped make Agon expendable.
Freeman isn’t on Heyward’s level in terms of tools, skills, or baseball IQ–but it’s fair to say Freeman has failed to meet the modest expectations in place for him - Capitol Avenue Club (May 28th, 2011)
He’s already proven that he can hit in the limited sample size of 178 PA. If he can reproduce his career line of .258/.322/.403 with semi-regular playing time, then he’s already infinitely better than A-Gon and, at the very least, a good Omar Infante type player. Who knows—maybe with more at-bats his numbers will actually improve some.
What's weird about Sutton...
He’s only played in 66 games out of 733 total as a SS at the Minor League Level in 8 years, but has already played in 19 out of 86 in 3 stints at the Major League Level. I like the signing, but I’m not sure the organization sees him as anything more than this year’s Ed Lucas.
Just Beachy here. How 'bout you?
I think the difference between Sutton and Lucas is that Sutton actually has at least some major league experience, whereas Lucas has never even played a game in the big leagues. When you combine that with the fact that Sutton is a better hitter I think he has more of an edge to make the team than Lucas did last year, especially if Pastornicky ends up as the starting SS, although I’m not sure what that odds of that are.
The only thing that I can think this means is that a trade is in the works to net us a short team SS
I'm hoping this is all part of Wren's master plan
he will then trade for Stephen Drew just to humiliate Justin
DFA Heyward. I'm dead serious
by wpf3211 on Aug 6, 2011 9:11 PM EDT
I would be the happiest man alive…well, maybe the 2nd happiest, depending on FW’s mood.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Nov 24, 2011 12:44 AM EST up reply actions
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Nov 24, 2011 12:38 AM EST reply actions
completely off topic
and maybe irrelevant if this topic has been discussed in detail, but after Bethancourt’s growth in 2011(and for arguments sake lets say he continues at the same pace as last year) is there an opening day within the next 4-5 years that doesn’t include Bmac behind the dish?
or as a counter, is it more likely we trade away bethancourt in a elvis andrus(comparison given by talent level, project-ability, and depth at the position) like deal for a -- fill in the blank?
Interesting post
You never really know about long-term signings until they’re done. I think it’s clear that the Braves want to sign Mac to a long-term deal if they can get it done at a price that the team can afford. Presuming that this happens, then yes, Bethancourt’s career path appears to be blocked. But Ross isn’t going to be around forever, and at some point the Braves will need a second catcher. I also am concerned that Mac has the kind of body build that his knees aren’t going to hold up long term, and beginning maybe in 2014 the Braves are going to have to limit him to 100 or so catching starts, which means the second catcher role becomes more important. (And although JC Boscan may be a good guy and a good handler of pitchers, he’s clearly not the answer there.)
Bethancourt will only turn 21 next September, and if I’ve done my math right, he won’t be vulnerable to the Rule 5 draft until 2014, so a decision isn’t needed right now. The fact that the Braves have been willing to talk him down a bit actually suggests to me that they intend to keep him — if they were grooming him to be traded, they’d be talking him up.
"Some people give their bodies to science. I gave mine to baseball." -- Ron Hunt
looks like we participated in a little foreshadowing
well done sir, think DOB reads this site?
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