NL East Type A and B free agents...
by cthabeerman on Nov 2, 2011 6:30 PM EDT
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PrintFree agency officially begins tonight. As negotiations progress, we'll likely see some moves that will impact the 2012 MLB Draft. The players involved:
Philadelphia Phillies, Type A: Ryan Madson, Roy Oswalt, and Jimmy Rollins. Type B: Raul Ibanez, Brad Lidge.
Atlanta Braves, Type B: Alex Gonzalez.
Washington Nationals: None.
New York Mets, Type A: Jose Reyes.
Florida Marlins: None.
Let's start at the top...I think it's pretty obvious that the Phillies offer arbitration to at least Madson and Rollins. Both will decline arbitration, but either could be re-signed by the ballclub - netting no picks. Offering Oswalt is a huge risk, because he's working off some high salaries. In the end, I think they do not offer Oswalt.
The best-case scenario, for the Braves, is likely that Madson and Rollins re-sign with the club and Oswalt leaves after not being offered arbitration. I'd hate for the Phillies to restock their farm system at this point...let's keep them buying up veterans at the cost of picks and trading what prospects they have left for more veterans at the deadline.
In regards to their Type B free agents, I don't think they can afford to offer arbitration to either without a gentleman's agreement for the players to decline. Both have made far too much money for arbitration to be a wise move. In the end, I think both are not offered and neither re-signs. But they might both come back for considerably less money...we'll just have to see.
The Braves will likely offer Alex Gonzalez arbitration, and it's up to him whether he decides to accept, decline, and/or re-sign. In the end, I see it as a 50/50, with the Braves looking to upgrade the position immediately if he declines. Barmes is an option, and Furcal could be a big darkhorse...depends on whether Wren wants to work with his agent. I don't see anyone else on the SS free agent board that I like as a full-time option, so it's fairly likely that a deal with Sea Bass occurs.
That just leaves Reyes, who will be offered and who will decline. The Mets could re-sign him, but that sounds like a bit of a longshot at this point. His suitors are not likely to be in the bottom 15 teams, so the Mets should get an extra first-rounder for their troubles.
It is also important to note that if the Phillies, Braves, or Nationals sign a Type A free agent, they will lose their first-round pick. The Mets and Marlins are free to sign a Type A player without losing a first-rounder, but they will give away a second or even a third-rounder (if they should sign two) for that privilege.
I expect both those teams to seriously look at the entire board of FA as a result of this. The Mets, for instance, may find a cheaper Rollins more to their liking, netting a first-rounder for Reyes while sending a second-round pick to Philly. Is the money differential and the pick upgrade worth it?? Maybe. I expect the Mets to kick the tires of Kelly Johnson, since 2B has long been an issue and they won't have to give up a first-rounder to get him. They could look at almost anyone and everyone, since 3B and perhaps 1B are the only positions they can't upgrade (Pujols and Fielder excluded on the 1B upgrade).
The Marlins could look at just about every player that's not a C, 2B, or SS and find someone of use in the "top-tier" of free agents, especially if the artist formerly known as Leo Nunez doesn't get his situation sorted, and quick. If they want to make a splash, they're in the position to do it, draft-wise.
As for the Braves, the only Type A players I can foresee them kicking the tires on are Beltran, Cuddyer, and Willingham. Since Beltran can't be offered arbitration, that will add value to his allure. I really would rather not give up a pick for the other two.
Time to get the Hot Stove fired up...
-C
This FanPost does not express the views or opinions of Talking Chop.
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how much would the braves have to pay Sea Bass if they offer him arb and he accepts?
I don’t care if Constanza hit .500 with 30 HRs and 150 RBI in 3 weeks, benching Heyward was a stupid decision.
by justincredubil02 on Oct 24, 2011 9:55 AM EDT
Too much
Way more than he would get on the open market.
by Ryan Eldridge on Nov 2, 2011 7:27 PM EDT up reply actions
but on the open market, some other team will likely be willing to give him a two year deal, maybe even with a mutual option for a third year. would FW offer him a two year deal? I say probably not.
so, unless he just likes being here and wants to chase a title with the guys for one last year, I think the smart financial decision is for him to decline arbitration and test the market.
Agreed!
I think A-Gon would likely turn it down. FW should offer ARB! I don’t see this as the same as the Soriono debacle
Wait
How was Soriano a debacle? We offered arb and he unexpectedly accepted. We ended up trading him for basically nothing, but the other option was to no offer arb and get absolutely nothing in return…
"He knows where he's throwing. If he didn't, there'd be dead bodies strewn all over Idaho." - Washington Senators scout on Walter Johnson
The reason I called it a debacle
Was because he accepted. The Braves had already signed Wags, so we where in a tight spot. FW found away yo get him off the books, but he didn’t recieve the 2 draft picks he thought he would.
The cases are different IMHO because Soriano would be still be able to get a multi year deal even accepting it and hitting a bettter market the next year. At his age and level of play, I don’t think ALex is in the same situation……… Also ALex wouldn’t cost the Braves as much if he did decide to accept.
That doesn't make it a debacle.
We had two options: get something for him or let him walk. We expected him to decline, but there was no way to ensure it. The only way it wouldve been a debacle is if we hadnt been able to trade him.
Getting something instead of nothing is the best case scenario.
"He knows where he's throwing. If he didn't, there'd be dead bodies strewn all over Idaho." - Washington Senators scout on Walter Johnson
So the diffrence of opinion you have with me....
Is not my opinion, but the word I used to describe it? That’s fine….. The only point I was making is I don’t think the samething would happen with Alex, even though Soriono wasn’t expected to accept either.
Sorry for jumping on you.
I just remember a lot of people getting upset about the Soriano situation and it really rubbed me the wrong way. What happened was the best-case scenario. It always annoyed me that people got angry with the Braves for not letting Soriano walk away without getting anything in return.
"He knows where he's throwing. If he didn't, there'd be dead bodies strewn all over Idaho." - Washington Senators scout on Walter Johnson
Not really...
I don’t think he’d get much of a raise, if anything. Maybe $3MM. He was an atrocious hitter, and that’s going to factor into an arbitration discussion much more than defense ever will. Arbitrators are usually people with no interest in baseball, judges and lawyers, etc., and trying to explain how good Gonzalez is on defense is going to be a feat of exceptional difficulty. They’re going to look at past salary and basically give a small raise.
This is the same reason why the Phillies can’t offer to players like Ibanez and Lidge. Trying to explain how they were bad is going to result in roughly the same thing – a small raise, from their previous salary. In those players’ cases, that’s a ton of money. In Alex’s case, it’s going to be very little.
Also, if you think Alex is going to sign for less than a couple million, you’re not placing correct market value on defense.
-C
It’s rough to sit through these games and not have someone that can’t hit a Ball?
This is exactly right.
UZR doesn’t sell in an arbitration setting.
Personal attacks are the weapon of the ignorant.
Panthers '011: This is what we've been waiting for...we get to overpay the core of a 2-14 team!
by MichaelProcton on Nov 2, 2011 10:41 PM EDT up reply actions
Way more?
When we’re talking about the difference between $3.5 mil and $8 mil over three, does it really matter?
Personal attacks are the weapon of the ignorant.
Panthers '011: This is what we've been waiting for...we get to overpay the core of a 2-14 team!
by MichaelProcton on Nov 2, 2011 10:40 PM EDT up reply actions
I'm not sure how much of a solution Fookie would be
he’s missed a lot of action 3 of the last 4 years. I’d be hesitant to spent much on him because he seems to be breaking down with age, and for a player whose main asset has been speed, that’s hard to maintain value as you enter your mid 30s and suffer numerous injuries.
http://sportsandgrits.com/
I don't disagree...
But outside of likely-unattainable options such as Reyes and Rollins, there’s very little out there. Barmes, Furcal, Carroll…
I mean, c’mon, Ronny Cedeno is the fifth-highest WAR earner on the market. That’s an issue.
The trade market may be the place to find someone, but then you’re giving up something to get something. Taking a chance with Furcal isn’t the worst option out there, even if it’s not ideal. Hard to place a salary on him, tho. Incentive deal, obviously…maybe $3MM base, up to $7MM, something like that (pretty sure I read those figures somewhere, so don’t attribute someone else’s brilliance as mine in this case, if it comes out being close).
-C
It’s rough to sit through these games and not have someone that can’t hit a Ball?
Having Furcal wouldn’t be bad, but with what happened between Furcal’s agent and the Braves Front Office just a few years ago, I highly doubt the Braves would even think about Furcal at this point. With what JS said about never ever signing one of that firms players, and then a few years later signing Furcal and dealing with the same agent wouldn’t look too good. It would honestly make JS look like a buffoon, or make him look like a little cry baby after what all JS said. I’m not saying JS is a buffoon or a cry baby, but I’m sure in many peoples eyes, he would look like that. I know Frank Wren runs the show, but we all know JS gives inputs on issues, and I don’t believe Wren would even think to sign Furcal after what previously happened.
I don’t care if Constanza hit .500 with 30 HRs and 150 RBI in 3 weeks, benching Heyward was a stupid decision.
by justincredubil02 on Oct 24, 2011 9:55 AM EDT
I thik FW will hear any concern JS has but........
As mentioned it’s his show to run. He has to do what he thinks is best for the team and not worry about JS’s past statements. If signing Furcal to a one year incentive laden deal is what’s best for the Braves now, then do it! JS has his legacy, FW has to create his own.
I don't think it's that simple
The president of the organization has issued an embargo, if you will, stating that his company won’t work with another company (Furcal’s representation). FW may not be legally obligated to hold that up, or anything, but it certainly doesn’t reflect well on him or the organization if he ignores it.
Most people use statistics the way a drunk would use a lamppost—for support, and not for illumination.
www.duwanis.com
If we fill Pastornicky is ready
but aren’t willing to give it to him uncompeted ala Freeman, a low, incentive laden deal for Fookie makes sense (if we’lll work with his agent of course). Otherwise, as you say, I think trade (of Jurrjens) is our best option.
http://sportsandgrits.com/
First I think JS was pissed and said it out of reaction....
Second…….. I have a hard time believing FW would have accepted the job knowing he couldn’t sign anyone represented by that guy. That’s just to big of an obstacle when you don’t know who he will be representing down the road. And If you don’t think front office guys turn down GM jobs, The O’s have been turned down twice already. That statement came out of frustration and JS knew he wouldn’t be in that seat much longer. I seriously doubt, he would prevent FW from signing the guy. I do believe he will tell FW what a piece of sh_t the guy is and tell him to have it signed and dotted before he believes a word the guy says.
More than one way to cut it
What kind of signal does it send if an agency screws us over but we continue to do business with them because they’ve got someone we want?
Most people use statistics the way a drunk would use a lamppost—for support, and not for illumination.
www.duwanis.com
Just the way it works......
I don’t think any team likes doing business with Boras, but everyone does. He has screwed his share of teams over.
WHat if Brian decides to sign with him?
Hanson?
Heyward?
Freeman?
Do you let that young talent get away on what could be home team discounts, because you don’t like their agent? Just saying man, at the end of the day it’s buisness. I don’t remember a lot of things my Dad said ( and it’s strange because he talks a lot… LOL), but I do remember this……. “Don’t cut off your nose to spit your face.” No matter if the guy was right or wrong, there is a time to swallow pride and do what’s best at the moment. So if Furcal is the best we can do with the money we have to spend, take a big gulp and do what’s best for the Braves…… But I’m not saying he’s the only option.
Damn spell check.....
But I think you get my point.
Has Boras actually done anything unethical?
Or is he just good at squeezing as much money as possible out of teams for his clients? There’s a pretty big difference, and based on what I know about Boras he’s going to be very careful when it comes to that line.
Most people use statistics the way a drunk would use a lamppost—for support, and not for illumination.
www.duwanis.com
Yet, you didn't answer my question.....
What if one of our guys signs with him, Is it just over no matter how good of a player, leader, or in the club house they are?
Rocky said JS made the statement and FW didn’t, there is a reason for that. A GM that comes out and says he won’t do deals with certain agents, is hanging himself. It’s buisness, don’t take it personal. If he is the best option and there is not anyone else in that same price range with the same talent, bite the bullet. FW didn’t make that statement, it won’t make him look bad. It won’t make the Braves look bad. Just JS and JS was seasoned enough to not let that get out no matter how he felt about the dude. Having been in a management position, one of the first things you learn is to seperate personal feelings form buisness. I have had to make deals with shady people that I don’t like, because it was good buisness for the company. Most in management have. If they don’t want to sign one player because this happened, that’s one thing. To block off an entire agency when they may have what you need, that’s just bad buisness no matter how much you don’t like there way of doing buisness.
Sorry if I rambled…… But I remember when this happened and thought JS was having a senior moment for saying it. Bad buisness to say what he wasn’t going to do publicly, when he doesn’t know what the future holds.
Oh and before I forget…….. 2000 the Braves made an offer to then Boras client Alex Rodriguez.. JS has talked about this in several interviews, it shouldn’t be a problem to find video proof. JS made an offer of 160 mil ( Check that, that’s what I think I remember) and said I thought we had a deal. Said when Boras called the next day I thought he was calling to set up the signing, he wasn’t! He called to tell me Texas offered 252 million. I might be off on the wording, but in the interview this is basiclly the way he said it. How is that different from what happened with Furcal? I don’t exactly know, I was always taught the deal isn’t done until the I’s are dotted and the T’s are crossed. I didn’t follow Furcal’s debacal as closely, so fill me in on the difference. But this happened and he still did deals with Boras.
There was also the much talked about Barry Bonds trade when Barry was a Pirate. JS even named names ( David Justice and Brian Hunter for Barry) and said again, I thought we had a deal. It didn’t happen! The Braves have stil done deals with the Pirates! My point deals fall apart, until the contract or papers are signed, there is no deal! I’m not sure what was different with the Furcal deal ( again, please fill me in if you know), maybe they just didn’t like the way the guy went about it! And that’s fine. But to say you won’t sign any client that signs with him is just stupid! Sooner or later, the Braves will sign a guy, draft a guy, trade for a guy, that he represents. At the end of the day, if FW is signing lesser talent, more expensive talent, talent that does not fit the Braves needs, to avoid signing one of his clients and the Braves fail, who’s going to get fired for it? FW has to sign , trade or draft the best talent he can, no matter who their agent is, it’s his job, he should do it. Let JS deal with his personal feelings for the guy on his own.
Sorry for rambling………. That was just wrong from a management prospective in so many ways to me.
Just went back and read an article on the Furcal debacal.....
Schuerholz and Braves general manager Frank Wren were quoted as saying the Wasserman Media Group, headed by Arn Tellem, negotiated dishonestly by taking the team’s signed terms of agreement sheet for Furcal to the Dodgers. Wren said he believed the request by agent Paul Kinzer for a term sheet signed by the Braves late Monday meant an agreement had been reached.
“Having been in this business for 40-some years, I’ve never seen anybody treated like that,” Schuerholz was quoted as saying in Friday’s editions of The Atlanta Journal-Constitution. "The Atlanta Braves will no longer do business with that company – ever. I told Arn Tellem that we can’t trust them to be honest and forthright. I told him that in all my years, I’ve never seen any [agency] act in such a despicable manner.
“It was disgusting and unprofessional. We’re a proud organization, and we won’t allow ourselves to be treated that way. I advised Arn Tellem that whatever players he represents, just scratch us off the list. Take the name of the Atlanta Braves off their speed dial. They can deal with the other 29 clubs, and we’ll deal with the other hundred agents.”
Schuerholz did not respond to a telephone message left Friday by The Associated Press.
Colletti said as far as he knew, everything the Dodgers did was aboveboard.
“I don’t have any idea what transpired with any other club. In the last two weeks, a day didn’t go by where we didn’t speak,” Colletti said regarding talks with Kinzer. "I just know our involvement with him.
“We spoke in Vegas at the meetings (last week). We talked all weekend long. We talked Monday, Tuesday, We talked until we had a deal done.”
Furcal said he’s been in the Dominican Republic while his agents negotiated with several teams.
“I want to say I’m so happy to be a Dodger again,” he said. “I don’t know what happened. We decided to sign here. The way they treat me here, I want to come back here. I know the team we have. I think we can make it this year.”
Asked if he felt bad for the Braves, Furcal said: “It’s something I let my agents talk to you guys about.”
The players’ association is likely to maintain that a team cannot boycott players based on which agent they retain.
While I agree Tellam is wrong, it’s still just buisness. And I have a few questions….
1) If the terms sheet was already signed, why are you faxing it them?
2) If this is indeed the way it went down, why is JS not pissed at the Dodgers as well?
3) If the term sheet was signed, why didn’t MLB step in? There has to be something illegal about that.
So I don’t think this is the full story, there is more to this to many questions.
There's a huge difference
Between going to the other team and saying “hey, I’ve got a better offer, you’ll have to step it up” and going to the other team saying “Hey, here’s the full package that the Braves are putting on the table for this guy, you need to beat it.”
Boras’s tactic (“The Rangers have offered $252M,” or whatever) is a negotiating tactic. He’s instigating a bidding war. That’s fine, and normal, and not in the least unethical – particularly since he gave the Braves a chance to respond.
What Tellem did was act like Furcal was going to sign with the Braves by trying to move that paperwork along and get all the details ironed out and on paper for Furcal’s contract. Once he got that information, he took it to the Dodgers and said “if you can beat this, you can sign Furcal.” So, it was dishonest and unethical for three reasons:
1) He acted like Furcal had agreed to sign with the Braves, when he had not.
2) He took a very specific set of terms, intended for Furcal and his representation, to another team.
3) After all that, he didn’t even offer the Braves a chance to counter-offer. He signed his client with the better offer that he received from the Dodgers.
To answer your three questions:
1) The terms sheet was already signed by the Braves FO. They were faxing it over to get it signed by Furcal’s representation so that their legal teams could use it to guide a contract.
2) Because the Dodgers weren’t the ones who behaved dishonestly. It would’ve been better for them to ignore the terms sheet, but as that’s all but impossible to do once you’ve seen it, you can’t really hold them at fault.
3) Because term sheets aren’t legally binding. They represent the first step in constructing a legally binding agreement. Actions don’t have to be bound by the law, though, to be unethical, so this doesn’t change the fact that Tellem behaved dishonestly and unethically.
Most people use statistics the way a drunk would use a lamppost—for support, and not for illumination.
www.duwanis.com
In the end...
…the question of ethics boils down to whether it is considered acceptable to take the offer sheet and hawk it to other teams. JS quite clearly thinks that it is not. IIRC, the agency’s response was that it was fine to do that.
Well, of course.
If they didn’t think it was fine to do it, we wouldn’t have ever had cause for this conversation.
Most people use statistics the way a drunk would use a lamppost—for support, and not for illumination.
www.duwanis.com
Skating around the issue my friend.....
I don’t agree with what Tellam did, but……..
1) Acting like his client was going to sign with the Braves and then signing with the Dodgers, Agents do that all the time! Until the contract or papers are signed you don’t have a deal.
2) I would be just as pissed at the Dodgers. They recieved inside information. ANd If I can negotiate and tell other teams this is what the Braves are offering can you beat it? Showing it to them on paper is not that much more, unless they ( the Dodgers didn’t believe Tellam had that offer and he had to prove it to them), in which case the Braves should really be pissed at the Dodgers for knowing he was doing this. It’s no way the Dodgers come off clean.
3) Exactly…… They did not have a deal! And that’s the bottom line!
At the end of the day, J.S. will have to eat this. Unless he steps down in the near future, avoiding all players represented by this guy, is one of the dumbest F.O. moves I can possibly think of! He’s not going out of buisness and you can only hurt your club by taking this stance!
Actions don’t have to be bound by the law, though, to be unethical, so this doesn’t change the fact that Tellem behaved dishonestly and unethically.
Most people use statistics the way a drunk would use a lamppost—for support, and not for illumination.
www.duwanis.com
IYO it was unethical....
I’m not naive to believe this is the first or last time this has happened in baseball. If the deal isn’t signed, it’s not signed. A lot of guys are taking this to personal, it’s buisness. J.S. and FW should have had the papers signed and in their hands before they assumed they had a deal.
Saying he’s just one agency? please. He’s one of the bigger and you have no idea who he will represent in the future.
In my opinion...
…and the opinion of people who do this for a living. So, I’m OK with that.
Most people use statistics the way a drunk would use a lamppost—for support, and not for illumination.
www.duwanis.com
That's an assumption and a wrong one.
Being that the Dodgers signed him anyway.
Oh, wait a minute
FW and JS haven’t done this for a living?
Most people use statistics the way a drunk would use a lamppost—for support, and not for illumination.
www.duwanis.com
They have.....
But since other GM’s around MLB contiue to do buisness with Tellam……… You are assuming 1 GM and 1 president have it right and 29 other GM’s and presidents have it wrong. So your assumption that people who do this for a living agree with you, is completely off base. 2 of 60 agree with you.
2 people is still people
The other 58 are largely disinterested in this event and have no reason to make a policy change about it.
Most people use statistics the way a drunk would use a lamppost—for support, and not for illumination.
www.duwanis.com
We also don’t know if other teams have these types of “black lists” or not. I’m sure there are plenty of teams that do.
If we can land [Stephen Drew], I will give FW a bj.
~justincredubil02
by king of games on Nov 3, 2011 2:13 PM EDT up reply actions
And we don't know that they do........
That would be puerly speculation.
Now to the speculation….. Between you and I, I think there are plenty of GM’s that would rather not do deals with certain agents. I also think being that much in public eye, you shouldn’t say what you won’t do! You never know who this guy will represent. As stated earlier McCann is coming up on FA in a while. If McCann decides to sign with this guy, are you going to let Mac leave because you don’t like his agent? I truely think JS had a senior moment and his anger got to him. With as big an agent as Tellem is, I can’t see the Braves just avoiding his clients. If that is the case when we get a real owner in Atlanta, both may be out of a job.
I’d have to agree with everything you said. JS was angry and probably spoke too soon, and if push comes to shove and Tellem starts reping Heyward, we’re going to do business with him.
If we can land [Stephen Drew], I will give FW a bj.
~justincredubil02
by king of games on Nov 3, 2011 2:48 PM EDT up reply actions
On the other hand...
Yunel Escobar was a WMG client.
-C
It’s rough to sit through these games and not have someone that can’t hit a Ball?
I think that may be the best point against me yet!
But do you think he was traded because of his agent or the clubhouse stuff?
Meh...
Perhaps both, perhaps nothing to do with the agency.
Looking through MLBTR’s database, three teams have no WMG clients – the Nationals, the Red Sox, and the Yankees. 7 teams have one client – the Braves, Brewers, Cardinals, Mariners, Orioles, Padres, and Rays.
Certainly no evidence to suggest that there’s a league-wide kerfluffle over WMG.
Player on the Braves that is allied with WMG?? Peter Moylan. The Cards’ lone player was Furcal, of course, who came over in a trade.
WMG was also the agency that recently lost K-Rod. It would be interesting to look at the rest of the defections league-wide and see if there’s any pattern, but that’s a ton of leg work.
-C
-C
It’s rough to sit through these games and not have someone that can’t hit a Ball?
LOL @ Yankees, Sox, Nats
aka The Scott Boras teams.
If we can land [Stephen Drew], I will give FW a bj.
~justincredubil02
by king of games on Nov 3, 2011 3:37 PM EDT up reply actions
So people that do this for a living only include JS and FW.... LOL
You can’t make a comment like that and only want to include the 2 guys that do this in Atlanta! If that’s the case don’t make it a broad statement, simply JS and FW agree with me.
The Braves can only hurt them selves by taking this stance. And since no other GM’s have made any such proclamations about Tellem or his agency, I think the Braves got their wires crossed. You actually believe he screwed the Braves and no one else?
Until the papers are signed there is no deal. JS knows that, so it’s on him. Tellem didn’t screw the Braves. JS’s comment screwed himself. The Braves could sign 10 clients of Arns and the only one that would look bad is JS for his comment.
Damn dude, learn to parse
“People that do this for a living” doesn’t mean “All people that do this for a living.”
As for the rest of your post, I’ve responded to all of that already, and am bowing out of this discussion.
Most people use statistics the way a drunk would use a lamppost—for support, and not for illumination.
www.duwanis.com
Damn dude, learn to say what you mean....
Saying people that do this for a living applys to more than just people in Atlanta. I can’t believe you rebutted that!
I said what I meant.
You interpreted it in a way that would allow you to continue arguing about it. So, whatever.
Most people use statistics the way a drunk would use a lamppost—for support, and not for illumination.
www.duwanis.com
Whatever man....
Well let me say this….. More GM’s and Team Presidents) " People that do this job for a living") agree with me rathee than you! Considering he’s still doing buisness in the MLB!
Obviously Furcal’s agency firm hasn’t been dishonest and unethical with any of them yet. Otherwise, I would imagine they would be right there with FW and JS and never dealing with that agency firm again.
In business, you need to stay away from the unethical organizations, you need to try to distance yourself from them, especially when they just did an unethical thing to your organization. If others want to deal with unethical organizations(firms) then let them, that doesn’t mean you have to. Most people know what right and wrong is, and being unethical is flat out wrong. Disagree if you want, but it is flat out wrong.
I don’t care if Constanza hit .500 with 30 HRs and 150 RBI in 3 weeks, benching Heyward was a stupid decision.
by justincredubil02 on Oct 24, 2011 9:55 AM EDT
Well, by definition
being unethical is wrong. It’s the question of what people consider “ethical” that gets sticky and complicated :)
Most people use statistics the way a drunk would use a lamppost—for support, and not for illumination.
www.duwanis.com
Who says he did it with the Braves…… You are getting only one side of the story which I tried to express from the get go….
So it is your take no matter who he represents, no matter how much of a discount that player would give the Braves, and no matter how much in need of that players skill set the Braves are, Don’t sign him because of his agent?
Honestly I don’t think JS would have reacted that way if he didn’t feel it was dishonest and unethical. So, let me get this straight, if you are running a business, and someone does something dishonest and unethical to YOUR company, you would still do business with that company? If you do, that is fine, just asking a question here. I have enough respect for JS to believe him that Furcal’s agency firm was not ethical in the process. JS just isn’t going to flip out like that if it was ok to do that. If you don’t think so, then so be it. Every single thing that I have read points to it being dishonest and unethical.
I don’t care if Constanza hit .500 with 30 HRs and 150 RBI in 3 weeks, benching Heyward was a stupid decision.
by justincredubil02 on Oct 24, 2011 9:55 AM EDT
1) Cool. I just saw where it posted and wanted the right person to get it.
2) You didn’t answer my question.
3) I wouldn’t be in that situation, because I don’t consider the deal done til the paperwork is signed sealed and delivered. I also don’t take it persoanally. From my understanding it was FW and the agent who negotiated the deal. Who knows if something was lost in translation between those two. Also this is just my thought……. The fact that they had come to terms was announced and the next day he signed with the Dodgers ( I think that’s the way I remember it), is more of just an embarrasement to JS than what actually happened. But as stated, I can’t say what I would do, because I don’t consider it done til the signed papers are in my hand….. Call it a trust issue :-),,, I’d rather have that, than cut someone off that I may need one day.
4) ANd last…. I have to say this again… If this is the most unethical, un -trustworthy, worst person JS has had to deal with in his career, I would be shocked. I think he spoke out of anger and was simply embarrassed. No need to hold a grudge, just get the papers in your hand next time.
2) I will answer your question. No, I wouldn’t sign the player(unless the player negotiated without his agent, that happened with Andruw Jones the first time when he signed the deal behind Boras back). Again, I think it was dishonest and unethical on Furcal’s agent firm, and I don’t do business with those types. You don’t seem to think that it is unethical, I do, but we will agree to disagree.
3) In this business, when the agent does what he did, it is “considered” a done deal. It is like a friendly hand shake saying it is done between the agent and GM. It wasn’t actually a guaranteed deal by law, but it was unethical, again, unethical isn’t against the law. JS had every right to be upset, I would have been upset too.
4) I don’t know if this is the most unethical person or group he has dealt with or not, but the fact of the matter, is that this firm was unethical and dishonest to JS, Frank Wren and the entire Atlanta Braves organization. I remember actually watching sports shows at the time and all the other ones seemed to agree with JS and felt that the agent was dishonest about this process. JS has absolutely nothing to be embarrassed about, if anyone should it is Furcal’s agency firm. They may one day work together again, but I think that the agency firm would have to apologize and admit that they were not completely honest and ask for forgiveness. Otherwise, as long as JS and Wren are in charge, they won’t deal with that agency firm.
I don’t care if Constanza hit .500 with 30 HRs and 150 RBI in 3 weeks, benching Heyward was a stupid decision.
by justincredubil02 on Oct 24, 2011 9:55 AM EDT
2) Never said the agency wasn’t wrong! I just seriously doubt, that’s all that went down for this much resentment to be around. If they are going to avoid players that might be best for us in every way, except the agent, I don’t want them as Braves President or GM. Most here know I think of JS and FW highly, I just see this as petty, considering I think they have delt with much worse. And I can’t honestly believe that they would avoid all his clients, if it where in the best interest of the team.
3) No, no , no my friend! Ask Tom Glavine.
4) Tellam got his client where he wanted to be, Furcal got back to the team he said he wanted to play for, no embarrassment for either of them. They got what they wanted. I don’t know that the Braves FO and Tellem have not already worked things out. A public apollogy for what happened is not a stretch…….. And if that’s all it will take in your opinion, we are not that far apart in our thinking. I don’t think Tellam would have any problem with apologizing if it where in the best interest of his client.
2) It could be the entire story that was posted, maybe it was more to it, maybe not, we will never know. But, what was reported shows enough evidence against them and shows they were dishonest and unethical. That would be enough for me to say forget this agency firm like JS said. Again, we won’t agree on this, which is fine.
3) yes, yes, yes it is “considered” a done deal, like a hand shake, obviously it isn’t against the law, just unethical. What about Glavine?
4) Plenty of embarrassment for Tellam, he looked dishonest and unethical, at least in my eyes and plenty of others. Maybe they worked things out, maybe they don’t, I have no clue either, prolly won’t know this either. I’m sure JS would forgive them if they genuinely mean it when they apologize, and make it known that it will never happen again. I believe in 2nd chances, as long as the other person or group is sorry about how something went wrong. I seriously doubt FW and JS do business with them until they get that apology(which possibly could have already happened).
I don’t care if Constanza hit .500 with 30 HRs and 150 RBI in 3 weeks, benching Heyward was a stupid decision.
by justincredubil02 on Oct 24, 2011 9:55 AM EDT
2) We won’t agree….. So I’ll let you keep the last word, no bigge.
3) No it’s not done til it’s done…. JS has even said that. The Braves promised all kinds of things to Tom, including he’d be called up after he sjowed well in AAA. They didn’t and called up Hanson. JS left FW holding the bag on that one because he was the one who made the promises. Tom G. went off in the papers, news, SC, you names it. You can google it. JS nor FW ever refuted his claims of being misslead and in fact apollogized to him. So J.S. has mislead people as well. You can google all of that. And why we are on the subject of mislead/ shady/ mistreated…. That wasn’t the first time they did that to Tom G. Things didn’t end well between Tom G. and the Braves when he went to NY. Google that as well.
4) I dissagree….. They ( Furcal and his agent) got what they wanted and other MLB teams are still doing buisness with them. It is my hope that all of this is already behind all parties involved.
3) I remember what happened with Glavine, but the right move was made by the Front Office, and they did actually apologize. Fact of the matter is that in MLB once the signature is from a club to fax it over and the agent runs with it and shows it to another team, then that was wrong. That was considered a done deal between the GM and agent. Again, we won’t agree, but this is how it works. You can’t sue, because officially the agent and player didn’t sign anything, again, just unethical. If you don’t want to believe that, then fine. It’s more of a gentlemens agreement than anything, so technically the firm could do what it wanted. But make no mistake about it, it was still unethical on the agency firms part. Not really anymore I can say about this, you don’t feel anything was wrong, I do. Let’s leave it at that.
4) I hope JS and FW completely stays away from Furcal’s agency firm until they apologize(if they haven’t already). If they never sincerely mean it, then I’m fine with the Front Office giving that firm the middle finger and going after other players. Again, good argument here, but we just won’t come close to agreeing, we just have to agree to disagree, nothing wrong with that.
I don’t care if Constanza hit .500 with 30 HRs and 150 RBI in 3 weeks, benching Heyward was a stupid decision.
by justincredubil02 on Oct 24, 2011 9:55 AM EDT
3) I’m not saying the FO didn’t make the right base ball move, What I am saying is JS broke a promise to Tom G. Something he actually said, So that is shady. Also I have already agreed that what Tellam did was wrong if that’s what actually happened, but I have to think there is more to it. Tellem to my knowledge has never even responded to it. So we have just one side of the story. That is the difference with this and Tom G. With Tom G. we have both sides and JS has admitted he was in the wrong. This brings up another question….. How can you be okay ( even though it was the right baseball move for the Braves) with what the Braves did to Tom G., but have so much hate in what Tellem allegedly did to the Braves ( which was what get his client where he wanted to be) ? Both mislead people? But back to the point I left the part we didn’t agree on and let you have it, since you brought it back again, please answer the question above.
4) I’m not……. And when we get a real owner, I doubt they will be okay with the GM or Team President having a personal vandetta against an agent who didn’t do anything illeagal.If it’s Mark Cuban and the best player on the market is available, do you think he’d be okay in avoiding him because of his agent…..
Last so much talk about ethics and unethical.
unethical – not conforming to approved standards of social or professional behavior; “unethical business practices”
Wouldn’t you consider it unethical for the Manager to avoid getting the product you need, because he didn’t like who was selling it?
“Tellem to my knowledge has never even responded to it.”
http://www.sportsagentblog.com/2008/12/22/losing-some-pals-over-furcal/
Somebody actually posted that below, but I knew Tellem responded to it, this was just more convenient to find. I mean if you want to think it is more to it, then fine. I don’t think it was, but whatever.
3) you have a precise link of what JS promised Glavine exactly? I mean I knew he told him some things, but I want to read what precisely he promised, show me a link and I can comment further on JS actions. I remember some things that happened, but to answer your question further, just show me link.
4) A new owner coming in and getting rid of JS and Wren won’t look too good, and I would quite frankly, be thinking wtf and surprisingly wishing we still had Liberty Media(I know I know, strong words lol). JS is a Atlanta Brave legend, and Wren I think has been damn good since taking over, with a few hiccups along the way(cough Lowe cough).
“Wouldn’t you consider it unethical for the Manager to avoid getting the product you need, because he didn’t like who was selling it?”
Absolutely not. If it comes down to dealing with an unethical group, then the right thing is to avoid them, especially when they did something unethical to your organization. I mean who in their right mind would deal with someone that was unethical with them, without a sincere apology and saying there was just a misunderstanding. Like I said earlier, I am fine with giving 2nd chances, it just needs to be a sincere apology.
I don’t care if Constanza hit .500 with 30 HRs and 150 RBI in 3 weeks, benching Heyward was a stupid decision.
by justincredubil02 on Oct 24, 2011 9:55 AM EDT
After reading that......
I’m even more in Tellem’s corner. You know Tellem is the man, JS said that Kinzer made the deal…. Ironic hugh?
Tellem’s statement was clear and to the point.
It was a 790 the zone interview. Still trying to find it, It’s hard to find old radio interviews. The ever opinionated Mark Bradley alludes to the interview here……http://blogs.ajc.com/mark-bradley-blog/2009/06/05/tom-glavine-speaks-and-does-himself-a-disservice/
But I will need the interview to prove my point. Will post when I can find it!
4) I said in earlier post I have notheing but respect for J.S. and F.W. but If I where to buy the team their past vandetta’s would be of no concern with me. And if it is Cuban, cosidering Mark already know’s Arn, I doubt how J.S. and FW feel about him makes any difference. But if they won’t sign the players I want ( and owners do come down and say get me this guy) because they don’t like his agent, I would find someone who could……..
nahhh...
1. He is right, there was no legal agreement between Braves and Furcal. I’ve said that all along.
2. Maybe so, but he still got the Braves to sign off on it with their signature(again, that is a gentlemens agreement between GM and agent).
3. He is right, again, he didn’t do anything illegal, I even admitted this several times.
4. Fine
5. Nope, he and others can think what they want, but it wasn’t integrity, gonna just leave it at that.
6. Of course, after all that is his job.
7. Like Mr. Sanchez said earlier, "Labor rules say they have to “entertain” the offers not sign and agree to them. There’s nothing in the baseball rules that can get an unspoken blackballing."
Honestly, he said what I thought he would say, nothing out of the ordinary. Basically, we won’t agree. I think it was considered a gentlemens agreement, and you say until they both sign it, then it isn’t a done deal, which you are right, by law it isn’t a done deal. That’s where the ethics come in to play. It really isn’t worth arguing anymore, because honestly at this point in time, and nowadays, you really can’t trust anyone to do a “gentlemens” agreement, you better have it all in writing finalized.
4) I mean if you are going to pay millions for a professional club, and you don’t personally have a problem with the agency firm, then you can do what you. I just don’t think it would look good though. Most owners probably don’t give a care if it looks good to the fans or not. It’s their team and they wanna run the show, and honestly I couldn’t blame them for it.
I don’t care if Constanza hit .500 with 30 HRs and 150 RBI in 3 weeks, benching Heyward was a stupid decision.
by justincredubil02 on Oct 24, 2011 9:55 AM EDT
Implies
and in the context he said it, I didn’t think it implied more than just Schuerholz and Wren at all.
http://sportsandgrits.com/
Really?
In my opinion… …and the opinion of people who do this for a living. So, I’m OK with that.
So it’s your honest opinion that this was only implying to 2 of the 60 GM’s and presidents? Not the 58 other people who do those same jobs. Really?
Not really going to spend a lot of time debating this, If I took it the wrong way, so be it. But I think I cleared that up in the post above getting my point across.
The man can answer for himself on how he meant it
whether just those 2 or others as well. But yes, when I read that, I didn’t think it included anyone more than Schuerholz and Wren specifically.
http://sportsandgrits.com/
ANd that's why I said....
So be it. And I have already cleared that up……
I get what you’re saying, but in business you shouldn’t deal with dishonest and unethical groups. The agent firm for Furcal was dishonest and unethical. You don’t deal with those types, no way, no how. it isn’t against the law to be unethical in business, but that doesn’t make it right, and you have a right to not deal with a group like that.
I don’t care if Constanza hit .500 with 30 HRs and 150 RBI in 3 weeks, benching Heyward was a stupid decision.
by justincredubil02 on Oct 24, 2011 9:55 AM EDT
Sometimes you don’t have a choice my friend. And this is the only report I have seen of Tellam doing something unethical. He may have done things like this before, but other GM’s and Team Presidents where smart enough not to get to emotional about it. Like the above post says……. I don’t think this is the full story, it sounds like half the story to me.
You never know who this guy will represent down the road. He could one day down the road represent my nephew. Who is the best player in the nation, a can’t miss prospect, the next Ken Griffey jr, wants to be a Brave, from Atlanta, and the Braves have the number one pick. Would you actually say it’s okay for the Braves to pass on the number one talent in the draft, that is labled as can’t miss the next Ken Griffey jr, wants to be A Brave and a home town kid, because his agent pissed JS off in 2008? Like most beefs, most will have forgotten what it was over by then.
If they don’t want to buisness with Furcal, fine. He’s just 1 player. To not do it with the agency? Please, the Braves will get over this. I didn’t work with shady vendors because I liked it, just in the alchol buisness, you have your share of shady people. Between Scouts, family friends, Parents, Brothers, Sisters, othe agents, other GM’s, other Presidents, other owners and the players, I’m sure JS has delt with people just as shady if not more. For whatever reason, this got under his skin. But he needs to get over this……. Damn life sucks when I’m the reasonable one…lol.
Fool me once...
it’s as simple as that. The Braves are an organization which prides itself on integrity and honesty. The way Furcal’s agents dealt with the Braves brass was totally unethical. Nothing Borass does, so far as I know, is unethical in the way Furcal’s agents acted. Sure, he’s a doucher and he tries to maximize his clients’ contracts, regardless of how it will affect the team they sign with or even if they deserve it or not. Still though, he doesn’t tell a team they signed his player, ask for the signed term sheet so his player can sign it, and then take said sheet to another team to extort money out of them. That’s what happened with Furcal’s agent.
As GWB once said, ’Can’t get fooled again!’
You always have a choice...
Some people just ignore the choice, which is fine. I personally wouldn’t though. A business is not going to sit there and screw me over and be dishonest and unethical and expect me to still do business with them. They aren’t the only agent firm out there, there are plenty out there. You keep saying you do business with shady people, but has any of them actually screwed you over in a deal or something? Otherwise, what you are saying is 100% different that what happened with the Braves. Maybe this has happened to you, and you still talk with the same shady people because it is in the best interest to, but I don’t get screwed by someone and keep going to them. No way, no how, not gonna happen, and yes it is as simple as that…
I don’t care if Constanza hit .500 with 30 HRs and 150 RBI in 3 weeks, benching Heyward was a stupid decision.
by justincredubil02 on Oct 24, 2011 9:55 AM EDT
Yes.
And here is an article that sheds some more light on the situation: http://www.sportsagentblog.com/2008/12/22/losing-some-pals-over-furcal/
Looks like it was just a case of crosswired communication. I’d wager that the Braves will entertain any and all offers brought forth by WMG…baseball’s labor rules pretty much guarantee it.
I see great things in baseball. It's our game - the American game. It will take our people out-of-doors, fill them with oxygen, give them a larger physical stoicism. Tend to relieve us from being a nervous, dyspeptic set. Repair these losses, and be a blessing to us. ~Walt Whitman
Labor rules say they have to "entertain" the offers
not sign and agree to them. There’s nothing in the baseball rules that can get an unspoken blackballing.
http://sportsandgrits.com/
exactly
and nothing the MLBPA can do about it either. Braves management in the media now will prolly act like it’s a non issue(so that the MLBPA can’t nose around), but yet won’t even attempt to sign one of the WMG players…
I don’t care if Constanza hit .500 with 30 HRs and 150 RBI in 3 weeks, benching Heyward was a stupid decision.
by justincredubil02 on Oct 24, 2011 9:55 AM EDT
They won't.
Or if they do, they’ll know it means that it’s going to cause potentially irreparable harm to their ability to play for the Braves. Considering that Tellum is one agency out of hundreds, that’s not really a big deal.
Most people use statistics the way a drunk would use a lamppost—for support, and not for illumination.
www.duwanis.com
I completely 100% agree man
We would be looked upon like a weak organization if we do business with that agency firm. What that firm did was dishonest and unethical. I for one am happy that JS said what he said, and stands up for this great Atlanta Braves organization. I absolutely respect all of the people like JS, Wren and others helping run this organization. They make me proud to be an Atlanta Braves fan. Keep up the great work guys.
I don’t care if Constanza hit .500 with 30 HRs and 150 RBI in 3 weeks, benching Heyward was a stupid decision.
by justincredubil02 on Oct 24, 2011 9:55 AM EDT
“That statement came out of frustration and JS knew he wouldn’t be in that seat much longer.”
Actually, Wren was the GM during that same year that JS made that statement. One way of knowing is Lowe was signed in 2009, and so was Furcal. I’m pretty sure that Wren had the same displeasure, but just didn’t openly express it the same way that JS did. JS has the same position with the Braves now that he did in 2009.
I don’t care if Constanza hit .500 with 30 HRs and 150 RBI in 3 weeks, benching Heyward was a stupid decision.
by justincredubil02 on Oct 24, 2011 9:55 AM EDT
I’m betting that FW wanted to come out and say something about himself, and JS was not only of the same mind on that subject, but made the statement himself to make it abundantly clear that this response was on behalf of the entire Atlanta Braves organization from the top down.
"Forget Roy Halladay or Clayton Kershaw or Cliff Lee, the NL Cy Young Award should go to O’Ventrel." - David Schoenfield, ESPN.com, 8/19/11
As for NL East teams signing free agents...
…I could see the Nats trying to make a splash and compete. I could see both CJ Wilson and Jose Reyes being on the radar.
As for the OF mentioned as Type A’s, I don’t know if the A’s offer arbitration to Willingham, but they might. Beltran obviously can’t be offered, and he’ll be out of our price range—and get more years than we would want to give him (or should give him). As for Cuddyer, not sure if the Twins offer arbitration to him, either. And with both Willingham and Cuddyer, when you consider their poor defense, they really aren’t an upgrade on Prado anyway, so why would we even consider it?
I can only hope that the Nats dish out big bucks and 4+ years for CJ Wilson or Jose Reyes. Neither player is worth what they will likely receive this off-season.
I don’t care if Constanza hit .500 with 30 HRs and 150 RBI in 3 weeks, benching Heyward was a stupid decision.
by justincredubil02 on Oct 24, 2011 9:55 AM EDT
After Werth
I get the feeling the Nats will be a bit cautious about throwing too much money around. But, I could be wrong; all that cash could be burning a hole in their pocket.
Most people use statistics the way a drunk would use a lamppost—for support, and not for illumination.
www.duwanis.com
I’ve heard they want to spend money this off-season. Nobody knows for sure though. I just hope they spend big on Wilson or Reyes. Paying Werth, Wilson/Reyes, Strasburg(when it’s time to pay him), and Harper(when it’s time to pay him and if he is really the real deal), then they will have a problem staying competitive and paying people big money. So, I can only hope they foolishly pay guys a lot of money and a lot of years.
I don’t care if Constanza hit .500 with 30 HRs and 150 RBI in 3 weeks, benching Heyward was a stupid decision.
by justincredubil02 on Oct 24, 2011 9:55 AM EDT
Riiiight.
With a team of Wilson/Reyes, Strasburg, Werth, and Harper they could be a dangerous club. Make it just Werth, Reyes, and Harper, and you’re talking about a lineup that could rake…with a rotation anchored by potential stud Strasburg? Yeah. I’d like my chances if I was GM.
Or how about a 1-2 punch of Strasburg and Wilson. Now plug a couple of solid FAs into that lineup. We have a hard enough time dealing with the scrubs that Nats throw out at us from one season to the next.
I see great things in baseball. It's our game - the American game. It will take our people out-of-doors, fill them with oxygen, give them a larger physical stoicism. Tend to relieve us from being a nervous, dyspeptic set. Repair these losses, and be a blessing to us. ~Walt Whitman
I have to agree with Chopaholic here.
This is a Nats team that by 2013 could have a lineup with Werth, Harper, Morse, Zimmerman, Espinosa, Rendon, and a decent catcher in it, along with a rotation of Strasburg, Zimmermann, and a couple of other good pitching prospects they have. Add a hitter (could be one of the 1B free agents as well, moving Morse back to left, and eventually putting Rendon at second with Espinosa at short) and one more good pitcher and they can be very good. And they weren’t that bad last year. They’ll probably be competitive next year and even better in 2013. The NL East is going to be a bitch.
The real scary part
is that they’ve got Wang back.
Most people use statistics the way a drunk would use a lamppost—for support, and not for illumination.
www.duwanis.com
If Wang is anything...
…hard to say at this point. If he rebounds, they could be dangerous in 2012.
My sarcasm must not have been apparent.
Most people use statistics the way a drunk would use a lamppost—for support, and not for illumination.
www.duwanis.com
The point of this is that Werth is overrated, and so is Reyes/Wilson. I hope they sign one of Reyes/Wilson. I know the Nats have some other good players, but a lot of their payroll on Werth, and Reyes/Wilson for many years will hamstring them signing more important and better players they need to sign in the future. That’s my whole point about this.
I don’t care if Constanza hit .500 with 30 HRs and 150 RBI in 3 weeks, benching Heyward was a stupid decision.
by justincredubil02 on Oct 24, 2011 9:55 AM EDT
If the Nats sign Planet Fielder, I might shoot myself. I don’t know If I could put up with seeing him that many times per year.
If we can land [Stephen Drew], I will give FW a bj.
~justincredubil02
by king of games on Nov 3, 2011 1:10 PM EDT up reply actions
I’d much rather them sign Reyes/Wilson than Fielder, that’s for sure. Fielder is a freaking beast that I think will continue to create havoc for a long time with the bat.
I don’t care if Constanza hit .500 with 30 HRs and 150 RBI in 3 weeks, benching Heyward was a stupid decision.
by justincredubil02 on Oct 24, 2011 9:55 AM EDT
But what I really want to know is...
Can Prado play shortstop????
Twitter: @scottcoleman55
by Scott Coleman on Nov 3, 2011 12:28 AM EDT reply actions 4 recs
YOU'RE NOT GONNA START THAT AGAIN!!!
… oh… wait….
"Forget Roy Halladay or Clayton Kershaw or Cliff Lee, the NL Cy Young Award should go to O’Ventrel." - David Schoenfield, ESPN.com, 8/19/11
Ah dear Christ…
"Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that." George Carlin
by DolphinNation on Nov 3, 2011 1:30 PM EDT up reply actions
Rec'd
For thought provoking questions.
I see great things in baseball. It's our game - the American game. It will take our people out-of-doors, fill them with oxygen, give them a larger physical stoicism. Tend to relieve us from being a nervous, dyspeptic set. Repair these losses, and be a blessing to us. ~Walt Whitman
Forgot to mention this...
Any player signed before Nov. 23 will have been considered to be offered arbitration. For that reason, only players who are shoo-ins for arbitration are generally signed before that time. For instance, if Pujols and the…Blue Jays wanted a deal done, they’d get it done. Kelly Johnson signing with the Cardinals would not. A team doesn’t want to throw a pick away if they don’t have to.
Type B free agents sign a little more often because no pick is given away. But if the player is a Phillie, teams will shy away from giving a contract early because the organization is in good shape to contend for WS. If the player was a Padre and you’re not in the NL West, who cares?? Sign the guy, they get a pick.
-C
It’s rough to sit through these games and not have someone that can’t hit a Ball?
Are they just considered to have been offered arbitration?
Or are they then actually offered arbitration, which they contractually have to decline? Makes no difference, but I am curious.
I believe the former, but you bring up a good point, as far as the thought process goes…if a guy has already signed elsewhere, you would obviously offer arbitration and get your pick(s).
Really interesting…I’ve only seen it explained as the former, but the latter is potentially possible. It’s more a technicality than anything at that point, but I suppose a team could possibly send a message by not taking the pick, in times of extreme discord between that player and the organization. MLB probably does the former to prevent such an occurrence, and if they don’t the organization would be cutting off their nose to spite their face.
But, in the end, I honestly don’t know either way.
-C
It’s rough to sit through these games and not have someone that can’t hit a Ball?
Haha
I can see it now: Pujols signs a $200M+ contract and then reneges on it to accept $24M in arbitration from the Cards.
Most people use statistics the way a drunk would use a lamppost—for support, and not for illumination.
www.duwanis.com
Something on Furcal having nothing to do with his agent
I think he’s a bad signing at this point. His stats from last year really showed some age. He’s not a hot prospect anymore; he’s 34 and a lot of his speed is gone. Over the last two years, he has only averaged 92 games and about 395 plate appearances. Fangraphs has his UZR/150 from last year at -9.4. His GB/FB% went way up; his wRC+ was only 84, and his OBP was under .300 for the first time in his career.
And the thing is… because the market for shortstops is so thin this year, someone is going to overpay him. It’s not worth getting into a bidding war at this point. Offer arb to Gonzo; get Pastornicky into some games, and if he doesn’t work out, Simmons is probably only one more year behind. Spend the money on an outfield upgrade, where there are plenty of options in the FA market.
"Some people give their bodies to science. I gave mine to baseball." -- Ron Hunt
The problem with that idea
is that somebody’s going to overpay for just about any available shortstop, including Gonzalez. Which makes them not really overpaid; the price on shortstops this year is going to be inflated because of scarcity.
Most people use statistics the way a drunk would use a lamppost—for support, and not for illumination.
www.duwanis.com
Which makes trade targets the best
perhaps this expanded payroll theory allows for Stephen Drew to fit in under contract. JJ and Carlos Perez for Stephen Drew!
http://sportsandgrits.com/
WOOT!
If we can land [Stephen Drew], I will give FW a bj.
~justincredubil02
by king of games on Nov 7, 2011 10:31 AM EST up reply actions
We all know why you're excited.
Most people use statistics the way a drunk would use a lamppost—for support, and not for illumination.
www.duwanis.com
Please no
I’m not sure I’d do Carlos Perez alone for Stephen Drew at this point. He’s fallen way off my desirables list.
Hey! I’m new.
by ChopMaster on Jul 7, 2011 10:24 PM CDT (joined Jul 19, 2010)
Twitter: @biggentleben
by biggentleben on Nov 7, 2011 11:27 PM EST up reply actions
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