Braves Trade Derek Lowe To Indians
by gondeee on Oct 31, 2011 12:53 PM EDT
in Braves Trade News
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PrintThe Atlanta Braves have traded starting pitcher Derek Lowe to the Cleveland Indians. No word yet on what the team will get in return; my guess: piece of mind.
According to SI's Jon Heyman, the Braves will get an A-ball minor league pitcher in return, but mainly they will be getting $5 million of salary relief. It looks like Atlanta will pick up $10 million of Lowe's remaining $15 million contract for next season.
This is essentially a pure salary dump for the Braves, as they try to get rid of as much of Lowe's salary as they can. Whatever player they get in return is just there to make the trade appear as though it isn't a complete salary dump (though it is).
Even though the Braves will only save $5 million in this deal, every penny is important in assembling next year's team. As I said at the beginning of the off-season, the Braves already have more money committed in salaries for next year's team than they paid out to this year's team. This move means they don't "have" to trade Jair Jurrjens or Martin Prado this off-season -- a move they may have been forced to make before this Lowe trade in order to clear salary.
UPDATE 
The Braves will receive left-handed pitcher Chris Jones from Cleveland in the trade. He was a 15th-round pick by the Indians out of high school in 2007. Here is a link to his stats. As a prospect, he's nothing to get too excited about. Prospect guru Kevin Goldstein had to say about him:
New Braves LHP Chris Jones has average velo, a good breaking ball and tons of deception. LHB can't touch him. Potential LOOGY.
So the Braves basically replace Eliecer Cardenas, the right-handed pitcher who was the player to be named later in the Matt Diaz trade, with a left-handed version. Cardenas is a potential ROOGY.
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Derek Lowe traded
“To the Cleavland Indians for a bag of baseballs and some new outfield sod.” – I say that’s quite a good return! I won’t complain! Sod has the ability to look good year round!
Best of luck to Derek
In all seriousness while I hated his on-field performance during his time with the Braves… I always enjoyed his clubhouse antics (though not his off-field antics) and never got the impression he was mailing it in at all. It never seemed like he was giving less than 100% on the mound, it just wasn’t working out. Hope he does well in Cleveland.
Go USA, Braves, BU Terriers, Irish, Caps, Skins, NU Cats, Wizards, DC United, Washington Freedom
BU Hockey: National Champions 1971, 1972, 1978, 1995, 2009
Not a bad risk on the Indians p
Lonnie Chisenhall, Adsdrubal Cabrera, and Jason Kipnis will get to a lot of the balls that our IFers couldn’t get to.
"Reach down in there...TURN THAT DAMN THING UP!" - Coach Paul Johnson
Good move by both teams. Wish Derek the best even though he was crappy I always Iiked the guy.
In baseball, you're supposed to sit on your ass, spit tobacco, and nod at stupid things. Perfect life might I add.
by HeywardFTW! on Oct 31, 2011 1:01 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
The Hot Stove heated up quickly
September 2010 seems like so long ago.
I know where the bodies are buried.....I buried some of them myself. - David Stern
by a hooter's baby on Oct 31, 2011 1:01 PM EDT reply actions
Wish we could have gotten Sizemore back…that would have been a good pickup. But Cleveland declined his option.
…but now that’s still possible (at a more friendly price). Frankly, though, it’s been 3 full seasons since he had a really good one. Injuries, I know, but … can he do it again?
"Forget Roy Halladay or Clayton Kershaw or Cliff Lee, the NL Cy Young Award should go to O’Ventrel." - David Schoenfield, ESPN.com, 8/19/11
yep
his salary was $8.5M. so it wouldn’t have exactly given the Braves much wiggle room. if he was the target, you go for him at say $2-$2.5M and still have another $2M in wiggle room from the Lowe deal.
I think the Braves should take a flier on him and try it out…you never know. If only he was right handed.
oh yeah....
…that’s the other reason I was reluctant on him. Forgot about that.
"Forget Roy Halladay or Clayton Kershaw or Cliff Lee, the NL Cy Young Award should go to O’Ventrel." - David Schoenfield, ESPN.com, 8/19/11
If FW got
Shin Soo Choo in the deal that would be awesome just move him the LF. Highly doubt that though
Lead off walks usually lead to runs, unless they don't. -Joe Simpson
If you don't like the way the Atlanta Braves are playing, then you don't like baseball. -Chuck Tanner
Seriously
This man starts every offseason running. Me thinks he likes having his major work done by thanksgiving and I’m not mad at that
by drumzalicious on Oct 31, 2011 1:05 PM EDT up reply actions
Are you talking about Camel Toe the Dancing T-Rex or Frank Wren?
I know where the bodies are buried.....I buried some of them myself. - David Stern
by a hooter's baby on Oct 31, 2011 1:08 PM EDT up reply actions
wow that is an epic camel toe lol
Braves.
Falcons.
Gamecocks.
clever girl…..
I thought hurricane season was over........
by bravesguy311 on Oct 31, 2011 1:23 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
You seem to forget that FW was the sucker that signed Lowe to the ridiculous 4 year 60 mil contract. He’s cleaning up his own mess. That deal turned out to be 3 years 55 mil. Some GMs get fired for shitty signings like that.
he was the 3rd best starter on the market that year. Only better options were Sabathia and Burnett. Also We refused to give up Hanson for Peavy which is why we didnt get him.
So do tell which starter we should have gotten going into that year?
by drumzalicious on Oct 31, 2011 8:55 PM EDT up reply actions
Garland imo, and then either Wolf or Pavano as extra insurance
2 of them combined would be less than Lowe’s $15m, and allowed greater flexibility going forward.
http://sportsandgrits.com/
Actually, the two of them (Garland and Wolf) would have been roughly the same price, for pitchers that weren’t as good as Lowe had been. Garland also signed a two-year deal (2nd year mutual option).
So basically you’re calling for four new pitchers in the rotation. Plus, there’s no guarantee that you can land all these guys, or that Wren doesn’t select Penny or Benson, or any of the other pitchers that busted out.
-C
It’s rough to sit through these games and not have someone that can’t hit a Ball?
Wolf signed for just under $5m
Garland for $6.25.
Combined, around $11m, or a $4m savings off Lowe. And yeah, 4 new pitchers. That was the route we were going with or without Lowe. Aside from Jurrjens, who else were we bringing back. Oh, Glavine. And?
http://sportsandgrits.com/
Wolf’s contract was incentive-laden, Garland’s had a $2.5MM buyout. Start adding it all up and it’s the same amount. Or, you could swap out Brad Penny for Wolf’s same salary amount and have a whole lot worse team at the end of the day. Or maybe instead of signing Lowe, Wren decides that Oliver Perez was the way to go and spends 3/36.
We brought back Reyes, so we only went with three new pitchers.
-C
It’s rough to sit through these games and not have someone that can’t hit a Ball?
what do you mean?
he couldve helped by being in the NL
"I heard that Tits was "well rounded" and his brother Cans was a "stand out." :D"
by Old Braves' Fan on Aug 18, 2010 3:05 PM PDT
by BravesRaleigh on Oct 31, 2011 1:13 PM EDT up reply actions
not so sure
we have a habit of making bad pitchers look good on this team.
by drumzalicious on Oct 31, 2011 1:53 PM EDT up reply actions
Hallelujah!!!
Frank Wren is the man.
Braves.
Falcons.
Gamecocks.
By My Reckoning...
…this now leaves the Braves at around $9.1 million under the 2010 salaries, given current obligations and best guesses for arbitration and such.
This includes:
- Nate’s decline (buyout included in 2012 numbers)
- Lowe’s departure, assuming $5m savings
- Arb. figures (from MLBTR) for Prado, JJ, EOF, Moylan, Bourn.
- The assumption that KK found a way to get a flight out of Pearl for Japan
- Free agents Sherrill, Linebrink, Wilson
- the release of Matt Young
This excludes:
- a shortstop for 2012. Alex Gonzalez is currently a free agent.
"Forget Roy Halladay or Clayton Kershaw or Cliff Lee, the NL Cy Young Award should go to O’Ventrel." - David Schoenfield, ESPN.com, 8/19/11
(yes, I have a spreadsheet)
"Forget Roy Halladay or Clayton Kershaw or Cliff Lee, the NL Cy Young Award should go to O’Ventrel." - David Schoenfield, ESPN.com, 8/19/11
Other than a SS...
are there any other real “needs” right now?
I don’t see any.
Obviously we will need a 3B after next season,..but will gain $15 mil from Chipper’s retirement with which to pull this off.
Chicken pot, chicken pot, chicken pot pie!!
I almost wish Aramis Ramirez had taken the Cubs’ option and then come out onto the market next year. Almost.
"Forget Roy Halladay or Clayton Kershaw or Cliff Lee, the NL Cy Young Award should go to O’Ventrel." - David Schoenfield, ESPN.com, 8/19/11
the 3B FA martket is pretty good next year
pending buyouts….. i still think it is Prado’s spot though
Spring Training is the greatest thing that can't end soon enough
Maybe part of that $9.1MM can be used to buy out...
some of Tommy Hanson’s Arb years and work on signing him long term.
"Reach down in there...TURN THAT DAMN THING UP!" - Coach Paul Johnson
WHEN?
When should we expect to hear anything on Hanson or Jurjens?
Is there a deadline for these guys?
Chicken pot, chicken pot, chicken pot pie!!
No real deadlines.
JJ is a free agent after 2013, so no urgency, but given everything else happening, I believe the consensus here is that he’s the best trade bait we have.
Hanson: given the play made by Boras and he last year… I think any long-term deal might be difficult. Nonetheless, he’s NOT a Super-2, so we have him under control until 2016.
"Forget Roy Halladay or Clayton Kershaw or Cliff Lee, the NL Cy Young Award should go to O’Ventrel." - David Schoenfield, ESPN.com, 8/19/11
I should say: he’ll be under control with reasonable rates, given 3 arb years. He’s ours until 2016 unless Arbitration is declined or he’s traded.
"Forget Roy Halladay or Clayton Kershaw or Cliff Lee, the NL Cy Young Award should go to O’Ventrel." - David Schoenfield, ESPN.com, 8/19/11
Did you include, in your numbers, McCann's escalating salary as well?
My buddy and I just decided that the braves would be set if we could get Matt Kemp, Jose Reyes, and Albert Pujols.
by willlinn on May 17, 2011 2:13 PM EDT
Yep.
Uggla’s also.
"Forget Roy Halladay or Clayton Kershaw or Cliff Lee, the NL Cy Young Award should go to O’Ventrel." - David Schoenfield, ESPN.com, 8/19/11
+ arb raises?
if we’re at $9.1m, that could increase if we swap JJ for a cheaper SS (Andrus?!?!).
Leaving enough cahs for a Willingham, Sizemore, Beltran, etc signing in LF.
http://sportsandgrits.com/
Yeah, I took the MLBTR arbitration guesses (not too far off from my own, actually) and factored them in for all of the arb-eligible players. That does assume we’re bringing ALL of them back. I would guess that Pete is the only one possibly up in the air.
Hopefully, that number really is $11.6m now (see below). That’s pretty good.
"Forget Roy Halladay or Clayton Kershaw or Cliff Lee, the NL Cy Young Award should go to O’Ventrel." - David Schoenfield, ESPN.com, 8/19/11
I don't think Moylan is up in the air
he had shoulder surgery in October. We’ve got Gearrin, Martinez, Varvaro, Marek, Hoover, among several others able to fill the job for the minimum. Why pay Moylan considering his injury past.
http://sportsandgrits.com/
Pete made $2m in 2010. If he’s truly out, then it’s roughly $13.6m under the 2010 budget. (BTW – I’m making best guesses on the minimum salary guys, too). In any case, that’s getting into some real serious coin.
"Forget Roy Halladay or Clayton Kershaw or Cliff Lee, the NL Cy Young Award should go to O’Ventrel." - David Schoenfield, ESPN.com, 8/19/11
and that's not to say we won't bring Moylan back....
I could easily see us declining arb, then signing him in May or June once he’s healthy as a mid season addition. But I don’t see any reason whatsoever to offer him arb and a couple mil that’d go with it.
http://sportsandgrits.com/
They got rid of the rule that you had to sign your own guys early or after May 1.
We could non-tender him and resign him right away if that’s what we both wanted.
Ahh, nice cave
thanks for pointing that out.
So maybe we decline arb, then sign him to a low guarantee deal with several incentives for time spent on the roster. Say $1m base, with $500k escalators for every 20 games pitched, or every 30 days on the roster.
http://sportsandgrits.com/
there are a ton of SS available after today
I wouldn’t mind Betancourt or Cedeno as guys to compete with Pastornicky for a starting job.
Brandon Wood could be a nice bench pickup as well.
by drumzalicious on Oct 31, 2011 4:33 PM EDT up reply actions
That has to be humor.
And I have to give him credit, too. Finding three guys with worse bats than Gonzo is pretty tough.
I didn’t think it could be done.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Oct 31, 2011 5:12 PM EDT up reply actions
no
Im actually more interested in them as bench guys. Not actually starters. Pretty sure Pastornicky will be our starting SS.
by drumzalicious on Oct 31, 2011 8:55 PM EDT up reply actions
you realize how awful Betancourt is? he was a fair amount worse than Gonzalez…and I think UZR actually is nice to him.
"No. Lonely people mixing with one another? Breeding? Creating an even lonelier generation? You're not even allowing natural selection do its work. Pssh. You're like the guy who invented the seat belt."
Dwight Schrute
yea i know
but since we dont have a lot of money this offseason im bargain bin shopping lol
by drumzalicious on Oct 31, 2011 10:11 PM EDT up reply actions
then jsut give me league minimum, I cant hit for shit either but I should be able to field at least better than him
Beware of hyperbole.
"No. Lonely people mixing with one another? Breeding? Creating an even lonelier generation? You're not even allowing natural selection do its work. Pssh. You're like the guy who invented the seat belt."
Dwight Schrute
Why stop there?
I hear Jeff Blauser’s ready to suit up, at age 55.
"Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that." George Carlin
by DolphinNation on Oct 31, 2011 5:11 PM EDT up reply actions
i thought
I read somewhere that the Braves had either included McLouths buyout in the 2011 payroll or they weren’t counting it towards the 2012 payroll.
by drumzalicious on Oct 31, 2011 1:54 PM EDT up reply actions
That is correct.
McLouth’s buyout was part of 2011 payroll.
I literally just did this.
It was a particularly small egg...thats why I asked.
by thenightstallion on Oct 31, 2011 1:11 PM EDT reply actions 3 recs
No more groundballers, Braves. Not when you have this terrible infield defense. I hope that lesson was learned somewhere in here.
Hudson?
Derek Lowe’s problem was not that he gave up too many ground ball hits. He gave up too many hits, period. Too many line drives, too many homers, too many walks. If defense was his only problem, we’d be all over how awful Hudson was too, and we aren’t.
In other news, is that the most uses of the word “too” in a response?
It was a particularly small egg...thats why I asked.
by thenightstallion on Oct 31, 2011 1:15 PM EDT up reply actions
Hudson was always at a different level stuff wise so its not the same thing. No defense wasn’t Lowe’s only problem, but a mediocre groundballer like Lowe only works if you have better defensive range behind him. Braves with Freddie and Uggla on the right side are going to be a black hole range wise for awhile.
Lowe's HR/9 was very good...Hudson was the only Braves starter with a better rate.
His BB/9 was also quite reasonable at 3.37. There really wasn’t anything eye poppingly different in any of his peripherals, he really seems like a good candidate for a bounce back.
by Stephen Schmidt on Oct 31, 2011 1:22 PM EDT up reply actions
He throws about 85 at best.....84 at times....his change was 77-78....so yeah, it's amazing he wasn't worse!
He was the third worst pitcher who pitched 200 innings in the NL in terms of WAR…
I believe Arroyo and Happ were the only worse pitchers….
I'm sorry but this was not just bad luck
Lowe consistently left his pitches up, especially down the stretch. It was all about command. And a sinkerballer who leaves his pitches up is a recipe for disaster.
by was385 on Oct 31, 2011 3:41 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
If his pitches were always up, it didn't really seem to hurt him too bad
His GB rate was the highest it’s been in years, and his HR/9 was the lowest it’s been in his Braves tenure. His FB and LD percentages were right in line with everything he’s done in years past. GB pitchers are more prone to variance in their BABIP, but when the team swaps out two rangy player on the right side of the infield for Freddie Freeman and Dan Uggla there seems to be a pretty direct correlation to his 20 point spike in BABIP. All of his other peripherals were nearly the same from 2010 to 2011, and while he was lousy down the stretch I don’t think this team was assembled in a way to get maximum value out of extreme groundball pitchers. If he was leaving his pitches up too often as you say, it seems to have resulted in more groundballs rather than less
by Stephen Schmidt on Oct 31, 2011 5:13 PM EDT up reply actions
Wrong...
His LD% was pretty decent (T-32nd of 145 pitchers with > 100 IP), his HR/FB was league-average, which is excellent considering how few FB he gives up. He walked more this year than in the past, but that’s really about it.
-C
It’s rough to sit through these games and not have someone that can’t hit a Ball?
I didn’t intend to mean that they were ungodly high, but just that too say everything that plagued him was poor defense was a gross overstatement and completely inaccurate. Headlines after his games never read “Defense Fails Lowe, Braves Again” they simply read “Lowe Fails Again.”
It was a particularly small egg...thats why I asked.
by thenightstallion on Oct 31, 2011 1:46 PM EDT up reply actions
Yes, but that is misleading.
The media will blame the defense for errors, but not for the lack of range, which can be killer for a ground ball pitcher. And outside of SS, our infield defense was severely range restricted.
again though
Huddy had a great year again, and him and Lowe had similar numbers. They both played with the same defensive range behind them.
The difference between the two is that Huddy has the capability to put hitters away. I don’t know how many times I saw DLowe start off alright, only to start nit-picking and nibbling with every hitter. About the 3rd inning, he would start walking guys, have 7+ pitch at-bats for each hitter. If you have a guy throwing so many pitches to so many batters, there is a much better chance the hitter gets on and that the rest of the team is able to see what that pitcher is working with that day.
by atlbravosfan on Oct 31, 2011 10:44 PM EDT up reply actions
uh
Please look up this fantastic pitcher named “Johnny Venters”. He was 5th in all of baseball last year in GB% and the only people ahead of him pitched 1, 4,8 and 11 innings. I’d say he fared quite well this year, so your reasoning is a bit off.
by ToBeTooGreat on Oct 31, 2011 2:50 PM EDT up reply actions
Good deal for Cleveland
Lowe is an experienced innings-eater who is not a bad deal for the Indians at $5 mil a year.
In other words… if he had agreed to play for Atlanta in 2012 for $5 mil…
Nah. Never mind. He HAD to go.
Chicken pot, chicken pot, chicken pot pie!!
Whoooooooooo!
Too bad the Mets didn’t take him….
"I heard that Tits was "well rounded" and his brother Cans was a "stand out." :D"
by Old Braves' Fan on Aug 18, 2010 3:05 PM PDT
Oh well
Wish it could have ended differently. I still think Lowe is a good bet to bounce back with a little luck and some better infield defense. But at least the Braves saved $5M and added a live arm which could be worth a little something down the road.
Don’t love the move (assuming the minor league pitcher isn’t an undiscovered gem), but at least Wren moved Lowe right away, so we won’t be hamstrung by this all offseason. It’s like ripping off the Band-Aid quickly.
If Albert played in the AFL, they’d have to rename it the AZ/NM Fall League, based on where his homers landed.
perfectly describes my feelings as well… you don’t happen to have a newsletter I could subscribe to, do you?
"No. Lonely people mixing with one another? Breeding? Creating an even lonelier generation? You're not even allowing natural selection do its work. Pssh. You're like the guy who invented the seat belt."
Dwight Schrute
To further ruminate
I don’t love the trade…I think it is a great deal for Lowe, a great deal for the Indians, and a neutral move for the Braves. I see no way we lose in this deal, unless Lowe magically goes all 2007 Derek Lowe or something, but it just isn’t that significant. I would have loved to save about 2-3 million more, but you get what the market says and thats fine.
I will be interesting to see how good this Jones character is and how quickly the Braves progress with him
"No. Lonely people mixing with one another? Breeding? Creating an even lonelier generation? You're not even allowing natural selection do its work. Pssh. You're like the guy who invented the seat belt."
Dwight Schrute
Agreed on if a little extra savings was possible
but I’d assume Wren has been working this one hard since the season ended, and couldn’t get the Yankees, Red Sox, or anyone else to fork over a better deal. IMO, this means we can now see what kind of SS Jurrjens could land us, and if it’s a good one, make the move. If not, hold steady and perhaps sign Furcal or go Pasty/Sea Bass next spring. Use the Lowe savings on a 4th OF/LF like Willingham, unless we’re keeping Diaz. Please don’t keep Diaz.
http://sportsandgrits.com/
Ya i assume Wren didn’t leave money on the table, I just was hoping for a bit more savings. I would be for signing Furcal but it would be for one year and for not very much money, he looked pretty solid in the playoffs
"No. Lonely people mixing with one another? Breeding? Creating an even lonelier generation? You're not even allowing natural selection do its work. Pssh. You're like the guy who invented the seat belt."
Dwight Schrute
I thought of Furcal in the Rosterbation Thread
and someone said we’d never do business with his agent again. True or False?
"Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that." George Carlin
by DolphinNation on Oct 31, 2011 3:34 PM EDT up reply actions
that's what we said at the time of our last dealing with him
who knows if we meant it.
http://sportsandgrits.com/
my answer is better
"No. Lonely people mixing with one another? Breeding? Creating an even lonelier generation? You're not even allowing natural selection do its work. Pssh. You're like the guy who invented the seat belt."
Dwight Schrute
Is not…
"Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that." George Carlin
by DolphinNation on Oct 31, 2011 3:40 PM EDT up reply actions
That is what Wren had said about Arn Tellum and his agency, but I think that might have just been an overreaction to the events that transpired in the Furcal negotiations. It isnt smart business to close yourself off to an entire client base. But there is no doubt there is some animosity between the two parties.
"No. Lonely people mixing with one another? Breeding? Creating an even lonelier generation? You're not even allowing natural selection do its work. Pssh. You're like the guy who invented the seat belt."
Dwight Schrute
It was Schuerholz who said it, not Wren
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3781333
Braves president John Schuerholz has vowed to never again do business with Furcal’s agents, whom Schuerholz accused in a newspaper interview of conducting “despicable” dealings with the team.
Schuerholz and Braves general manager Frank Wren were quoted as saying the Wasserman Media Group, headed by Arn Tellem, negotiated dishonestly by taking the team’s signed terms of agreement sheet for Furcal to the Dodgers. Wren said he believed the request by agent Paul Kinzer for a term sheet signed by the Braves late Monday meant an agreement had been reached.
“Having been in this business for 40-some years, I’ve never seen anybody treated like that,” Schuerholz was quoted as saying in Friday’s editions of The Atlanta Journal-Constitution. "The Atlanta Braves will no longer do business with that company – ever. I told Arn Tellem that we can’t trust them to be honest and forthright. I told him that in all my years, I’ve never seen any [agency] act in such a despicable manner.
“It was disgusting and unprofessional. We’re a proud organization, and we won’t allow ourselves to be treated that way. I advised Arn Tellem that whatever players he represents, just scratch us off the list. Take the name of the Atlanta Braves off their speed dial. They can deal with the other 29 clubs, and we’ll deal with the other hundred agents.”
http://sportsandgrits.com/
Link or it didn’t….aw shit, there’s the link.
"Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that." George Carlin
by DolphinNation on Oct 31, 2011 3:42 PM EDT up reply actions
I’d hope they could knead out the tension between them, because he’d look pretty effin’ good batting 2nd and playing SS for the 2012 edition of the Atlanta Braves.
"Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that." George Carlin
by DolphinNation on Oct 31, 2011 3:42 PM EDT up reply actions
he would be perfect to battle with Pastornicky
If he makes the team, he has a great glove and can bring some speed to the team. I am not sure he should be batting second though. I would bat him 8th or 9th.
THIS IS THE GREATEST DAY OF MY LIFE!!!!
DRINKS ON ME!
Where?
Go USA, Braves, BU Terriers, Irish, Caps, Skins, NU Cats, Wizards, DC United, Washington Freedom
BU Hockey: National Champions 1971, 1972, 1978, 1995, 2009
Probably where they store the TC premium memberships...
"He knows where he's throwing. If he didn't, there'd be dead bodies strewn all over Idaho." - Washington Senators scout on Walter Johnson
Now, that’s a reference I haven’t heard in a while.
by swainzy on Oct 31, 2011 10:37 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
once again
frank wren proves why he is the best gm in baseball
Um
Wouldn’t the greatest GM in baseball not have signed Lowe to $60M/4 in the first place?
If Albert played in the AFL, they’d have to rename it the AZ/NM Fall League, based on where his homers landed.
All GMs
Make their fair share of mistakes. FW has done a great job of patching up some of our weaknesses, mostly.
…and now has eliminated the lone ‘bad contract’ on the roster.
"Forget Roy Halladay or Clayton Kershaw or Cliff Lee, the NL Cy Young Award should go to O’Ventrel." - David Schoenfield, ESPN.com, 8/19/11
Don’t disagree with either of you. But heralding a GM’s move bailing himself out of a bad contract he offered 3 years ago as proof “once again” that he’s the best GM in baseball strikes me as ironic, to say the least.
If Albert played in the AFL, they’d have to rename it the AZ/NM Fall League, based on where his homers landed.
Nor will I argue your points. I would not go so far as to say ‘best GM’ in any case — that’s a real tough call period, given the vast market differences and such. I do think we (as a group) have been more pleased with his moves than not – by a fair margin. That’s a good thing.
This move today requires $10million to eliminate the uncertainty of what 2012 would bring for Lowe. Nonetheless, it should make the team better.
"Forget Roy Halladay or Clayton Kershaw or Cliff Lee, the NL Cy Young Award should go to O’Ventrel." - David Schoenfield, ESPN.com, 8/19/11
All fair. I don’t think we can fully the Lowe trade until we see the rotation in March. If by then, Hanson’s hurt, we’ve dealt Jurrjens and have a starting rotation of Hudson and the babies, I won’t be thrilled. Love him or hate him, Lowe was a good insurance policy to have. That said, if Wren needs this $5M to fill out the roster, it’s hard to blame him for trading now to get some payroll flexibility.
If Albert played in the AFL, they’d have to rename it the AZ/NM Fall League, based on where his homers landed.
Would you have rather
waited until spring, seen everyone make it through healthy, and then be in a bind on Lowe when no one wants him with their rosters already set and money spent?
http://sportsandgrits.com/
I’d rather that than have a rotation of Hudson, Beachy, Minor, Delgado, and Teheran.
If Albert played in the AFL, they’d have to rename it the AZ/NM Fall League, based on where his homers landed.
Due to my laziness to read through all of this
Why are we not including Hanson and JJ?
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Oct 31, 2011 5:13 PM EDT up reply actions
They're both hurt in that world.
'There are two pains in life. There is the pain of discipline and the pain of disappointment. If you can handle the pain of discipline, then you'll never have to deal with the pain of disappointment,'- Nick Saban
So
It’s like a doomsday worst-case scenario? I’d still rather not have Lowe and the $5M we saved on his contract.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Oct 31, 2011 5:20 PM EDT up reply actions
That was the argument, yes.
'There are two pains in life. There is the pain of discipline and the pain of disappointment. If you can handle the pain of discipline, then you'll never have to deal with the pain of disappointment,'- Nick Saban
Not quite
JJ could be hurt and/or traded. I guess I like having Lowe around more than I like $5M, given his potential bounceback and the risk that our Opening Day rotation could be Hudson and the Kids.
If Albert played in the AFL, they’d have to rename it the AZ/NM Fall League, based on where his homers landed.
Especially when you can just go back to last offseason
And see where he traded for Scott Linebrink and ended up paying him…what was it, $2.5 million? Clevelnd at some of his salary, but still.
My buddy and I just decided that the braves would be set if we could get Matt Kemp, Jose Reyes, and Albert Pujols.
by willlinn on May 17, 2011 2:13 PM EDT
Don't forget
All the $$ we wasted last year on Kawakami, either. Turns my stomach.
If Albert played in the AFL, they’d have to rename it the AZ/NM Fall League, based on where his homers landed.
it was either him, oliver perez or aj burnett
so yes he is a great gm
If that was our only options
maybe. But they weren’t, not even close to it.
http://sportsandgrits.com/
ya your right
we still had chuck james and that mexican reliever turned starter dude
okay mr sanchez, who else?
cc sabathia was on the market. we shoulda signed him!
Jon Garland, Randy Wolf, and Carl Pavano were all available on one year deals that off season
among others.
He could have also stood pat since we’d traded for Javy Vazquez long before signing Lowe. Had him, Jurrjens, Hanson had lit up the Arizona Fall League like few pitchers ever had proving his readiness. Kawakami was announced that same day iirc, and considering the time that deal likely took to negotiate, there was another starter in the mix. In addition to Hanson, we had Medlen, Jojo Reyes, and Charlie Morton already knocking on the door ready to get their shot. So no, we did not “need” to sign anyone else, especially not an aging Lowe to a very large, long term contract (Lowe has been our highest paid player, even over Chipper). So considering those options, we didn’t have to sign anyone. But if we wanted another veteran option, the three mentioned in the subject line (Garland, Wolf, and Pavano), all had fabulous seasons in 2009, and were all signed to one year contracts saving us the long term obligation with several talented young arms on the cusp, and we could have signed 2 of the 3 for less than Lowe’s first season obligation of $15m.
http://sportsandgrits.com/
Meh...
And we’ll argue this ’til the day we die…
Player A: 4.67 ERA/3.74 FIP/3.79 xFIP, 8.64 K/9, 2.64 BB/9, 208 IP
Player B: 3.24 ERA/3.26 FIP/3.32 xFIP, 6.27 K/9, 1.92 BB/9, 211 IP
Player C: 4.90 ERA/4.76 FIP/4.54 xFIP, 4.12 K/9, 2.7 BB/9, 196 IP
Player D: 5.77 ERA/5.37 FIP/5.44 xFIP, 3.93 K/9, 2.62 BB/9, 34 IP
Player E: 4.30 ERA/4.17 FIP/4.24 xFIP, 7.66 K/9, 3.36 BB/9, 190 IP
Hint: The first is Vazquez, who was a solid find. The second is Lowe, and the following three are the other options…none of whom were considered top-of-the-rotation guys, for obvious reasons.
It’s important to note that none of those guys, including Vazquez, had numbers remotely close to Lowe’s at that point, in any season. Lowe had put up similar numbers a time or two at that point.
-C
It’s rough to sit through these games and not have someone that can’t hit a Ball?
It's not about the numbers C
it’s about the long term obligation. As said, we could have had 2 of the 3 between Wolf, Garland, and Pavano, for less than Lowe, and that’s without even considering the next 3 years at $15m per. For a team spending middle of the pack, with several quality young starters ready or near ready, that sort of investment was extremely unwise. That’s all it is.
And I assume that’s their 2008 numbers, not 2009. We’re talking about options for ’09, and going forward. Lowe may have looked like the best option, but for us, at that price, it was simply not worth it considering the others available that would allow us much greater flexibility.
http://sportsandgrits.com/
There weren’t several quality young starters ready or near ready…there was Hanson. Reyes had already flopped in more than 30 starts, Morton was horrible in a half season’s worth. Hudson was going to be out for most of the season.
Hanson only had about 2/3 of a season at AA at that time, plus some AFL work. Glavine was hurt, Smoltz was coming off injury and not signed.
I’ve yet to see a team contend with pitchers such as Vazquez (pre-Braves), Jurrjens, Campillo, Garland, and Wolf in its rotation. You’d be lucky to find someone that was a legitimate #2 in the whole of the rotation, and most of those guys, at that time, were considered #4s at best. Maybe Vazquez and Jurrjens headlining the rotation as #3s.
-C
It’s rough to sit through these games and not have someone that can’t hit a Ball?
You left out Kris Medlen
Who actually got called up in 2009 before Tommy Hanson did.
Here’s what we could have had as a rotation (to start the year) if we hadn’t signed Lowe, or any other top line free agent.
Hudson, Jurrjens, Vazquez, Kawakami, Glavine, (Campillo). That’s not great, but it’s not too bad. And we certainly didn’t make the playoffs even WITH Lowe Considering how Lowe pitched in 2009 (4.67 ERA, 4.06 FIP, 4.15 xFIP) we could have gotten similar results from Glavine. Everyone else in our rotation that season performed better.
After a month, we had Kris Medlen if we needed him, after two months, Hanson. So by the end of the year, it’s Hudson, Hanson, Jurrjens, Vazquez, and then a toss-up between KK, Glavine, and Medlen for that fifth spot (Medlen would have ended up in the bullpen).
The problem is that we decided we needed to add 4 starting pitchers in one offseason, for some reason, and we paid millions to do it. It wasn’t necessary. Imagine spending just $10 million to address problems in the outfield for 2009, rather than having FUGA out there all season.
My buddy and I just decided that the braves would be set if we could get Matt Kemp, Jose Reyes, and Albert Pujols.
by willlinn on May 17, 2011 2:13 PM EDT
No, I didn't.
Medlen had less than three months of starting experience for the duration of his minor league career prior to 2009. At AA. He came up as a spot starter for three games and started five more the entire 2009 season.
If anything, Medlen is a clear sign of panic within the organization.
Hudson could have started, if his elbow hadn’t just been surgically reattached the August prior. So he’s out of your proposed rotation. 43-year-old Glavine was also injured, so he’s out. If you ignore those two injuries, I suppose that’s a rotation that’s “not too bad.” What is it with those injuries??
-C
It’s rough to sit through these games and not have someone that can’t hit a Ball?
Medlen wasn't "panic"
he was pitching better than Hanson in AAA. After Jojo flopped, we called him up. In part to reward him for his superior production, although I’d assume the large part was to delay Hanson’s service clock to avoid super 2 as we just saw.
http://sportsandgrits.com/
Well, he did kill it over six whole starts at AAA. But I’m pretty sure he was brought up as a stopgap (which he struggled with…10 runs in 14 innings in three starts, although his last was good) rather than because he was ready or near ready.
So I agree with the service clock, but think the ready/near-ready is basically a crock. Dude has 23 starts in his entire professional career at that point.
-C
-C
It’s rough to sit through these games and not have someone that can’t hit a Ball?
So they started?
hence “ready” or “near ready”. That doesn’t mean “good”.
http://sportsandgrits.com/
Looking at numbers from the previous season
Is not the most effective measure of talent nor of predicting future results.
The REASON I hated the Derek Lowe signing and loved the Vazquez trade was that one guy was coming off essentially a career year in a home park that favored pitchers, while the other guy was coming off of one season where he underperformed slightly (especially in regards to his ERA) but both guys had essentially demonstrated similar talent levels in their careers.
We overpaid for Lowe because he had just come off a great season and someone WAS going to overpay for him. That it turned out to be Atlanta doesn’t speak too well about us.
My buddy and I just decided that the braves would be set if we could get Matt Kemp, Jose Reyes, and Albert Pujols.
by willlinn on May 17, 2011 2:13 PM EDT
It’s not just about that year’s numbers, though. As I stated, Lowe had put up other seasons at or near that same level. None of the others had even come close, save Vazquez some five years prior.
-C
It’s rough to sit through these games and not have someone that can’t hit a Ball?
Don't create a false dilemma
It wasn’t about choosing the absolute best pitcher we could get, it was about how to get the best possible value out of a signing. When you just stick up a list of the previous season’s numbers and say, “See, this guy is obviously better!” you’re obfuscating the facts to make your point. It’s entirely BECAUSE he had just come off a great season that he got paid more than the others you listed. And predictably, he regressed the following year.
His career numbers were certainly solid, but spending $15 million on a limited budget for Derek Lowe was always a dangerous move. Evaluating the entirety of the deal today, now that he’s gone (the appropriate time to do it) you can see that it didn’t pay off, fairly disastrously.
My buddy and I just decided that the braves would be set if we could get Matt Kemp, Jose Reyes, and Albert Pujols.
by willlinn on May 17, 2011 2:13 PM EDT
Look at the three years prior to Lowe’s signing. They weren’t shabby, either.
Carl Pavano threw 46 innings in the prior three seasons, but I guess he was a better option when not looking at hindsight…give me a break.
-C
It’s rough to sit through these games and not have someone that can’t hit a Ball?
You're looking at something other than cost...
sign Pavano and Garland on the back end, and see what happens. Sometimes it fails, sometimes it works. Who would have predicted Garcia and Colon giving the Yankees some decent production? Just cause it seems unlikely doesn’t make it impossible. And it’s also why I say sign two (for cheaper than Lowe in just that first year alone). It gives you greater flexibility going forward, frees up more money for LF so we can get better than FUGA, AND you roll the dice that at least one does well. And if both do as they ultimately did that year, JACKPOT!
http://sportsandgrits.com/
Yeah, you’re right. Yankees should bypass Sabathia and go with another year of Colon and Garcia this offseason. Clearly a better strategy.
-C
It’s rough to sit through these games and not have someone that can’t hit a Ball?
Uhm, enjoy putting words in my mouth to win an argument
That strawman sure is cringing in terror, now.
My buddy and I just decided that the braves would be set if we could get Matt Kemp, Jose Reyes, and Albert Pujols.
by willlinn on May 17, 2011 2:13 PM EDT
You, Sanchez, whomever. Someone said signing Pavano would be a better move. I was merely showing how it wasn’t. Certainly not at the time.
-C
It’s rough to sit through these games and not have someone that can’t hit a Ball?
Yeah, 20/20 hindsight
signing Pavano would have absolutely been the better move. Given a better season, for less, and allows flexibility moving forward.
http://sportsandgrits.com/
Let me know where you’ve purchased your crystal ball…
-C
It’s rough to sit through these games and not have someone that can’t hit a Ball?
I already told you where the priority was...
Lowe would have been pursued, until that price got as high as it did, and required guaranteeing near age 40 at that price. At which point, I’d have gone for the flexibility of the one year deals filling out the back end, while Jurrjens and Vazquez took the front, hoping one hit the jackpot, and the kids lived up to their expectations. Plus, you can put some of the savings toward a legit LF bat like Adam Dunn, and the offense does a better job covering any pitching shortfalls.
http://sportsandgrits.com/
So basically you make all the right moves instead of making the less right one, without knowing how it’s going to turn out at the time.
Right.
-C
It’s rough to sit through these games and not have someone that can’t hit a Ball?
No, I don't pay that much for a pitcher that old
who while good, has never been a true “ace”. If I’m the Yankees, I spend it. But with the Braves limitations, at that price I bow out, sign 2 of the veterans willing to take one year deals, and if there’s any left over, use it on Dunn in LF who I thought was the ideal fit for our lineup.
http://sportsandgrits.com/
None of that means he was worth 4 yrs, $60m to our organization
given our needs then AND our needs going forward.
But agree to disagree, since it’s over, and this is a dead debate.
http://sportsandgrits.com/
Which one of those guys is Sabathia?
Q: If not us, who? If not now, when? A: The Batman. And "when you least expect it."
like we could have gotten Sabathia
yes technically we could have but having almost 1/4th of your teams payroll tied up in one player for 7 years was not wise.
by drumzalicious on Oct 31, 2011 9:04 PM EDT up reply actions
We paid just as much for Lowikami on a per year basis as the Yanks gave Sabathia.
Sabathia is a Free Agent right now, the Yanks don’t have to pay him another dollar if they don’t want to, on the other hand we’re paying Derek Lowe $10 MM next season to pitch for another team.
Q: If not us, who? If not now, when? A: The Batman. And "when you least expect it."
we would have had one pitcher instead of two. Also he is a FA by a clause in his contract. Pretty sure we would have had to commit at least 6 years to him
by drumzalicious on Nov 1, 2011 12:55 AM EDT up reply actions
We added 3 pitchers when we only needed 2. And Sabathia was worth more than Lowe and Kawakami combined anyway.
We’d have been stupid not to offer him that same clause, thanked him for 3 great seasons, and then wished him good luck when he exercised it.
Q: If not us, who? If not now, when? A: The Batman. And "when you least expect it."
No?
We had Hudson and JJ under contract, so at most we needed 3, and we had any number of stop gap options for the 5th spot in the rotation until Hanson and/or Meds was ready.
In fact Wren was ready to spend $10 MM a year on Furcal instead of spending on KK until that deal fell apart, so obviously even our GM thought that we’d have been okay only bringing in 2 starters big money starters.
Q: If not us, who? If not now, when? A: The Batman. And "when you least expect it."
Sabathia hasn’t been a FA since that year. He never opted out and got an extension today.
That said, you’re right. Lowikami was about $750K less than Sabathia. Also, if Sabathia had gone the way of Lowe, the Yankees would have had to pay him an additional $92MM, whether they wanted to or not.
-C
It’s rough to sit through these games and not have someone that can’t hit a Ball?
I thought he had officially opted out earlier, I guess not.
Either way, yes, the Yanks could have been on the hook for the next 4 years, but Sabathia was a 28 year old in his prime at the time and one of the best pitchers in the game. The odds of him declining in value before the clause came up were considerably lower than they were for Lowe declining in value right away at age 35.
I also thought that signing CC would have injected a lot of excitement in the fanbase and helped to move more tickets by bringing in a legit superstar in his prime.
Q: If not us, who? If not now, when? A: The Batman. And "when you least expect it."
....who had been abused by the Indians and Brewers.
Especially the Brewers.
'There are two pains in life. There is the pain of discipline and the pain of disappointment. If you can handle the pain of discipline, then you'll never have to deal with the pain of disappointment,'- Nick Saban
Could have done all that...
Also could have gone the way of Johan Santana or Mike Hampton. Therein lies the risk of putting $161MM in one basket…
Some teams can afford to take that risk. The Braves would be hard-pressed to do so, though.
The reason the top-tier FA sign with New York, Boston, etc., isn’t just the money itself. The risk factor for a team being able to offer such a contract plays a huge factor as well.
-C
It’s rough to sit through these games and not have someone that can’t hit a Ball?
And we are not a franchise that can take such a risk
maybe with a guy entering their late 20s/early 30s prime as Hanson could be when his arb years are up. Or perhaps one of our current young “Big 4” when their arb years are up, but for a pitcher in his late 30s (because Lowe was 36 in year 1 of the deal), that risk is something the Yankees, Red Sox, Angels, Dodgers can afford, but not under $100m payroll Atlanta.
http://sportsandgrits.com/
Yeah, there’s about a $100MM difference between Lowe and Sabathia.
The risk with low was always fairly low, for lack of a better word. You’re talking about a guy that eats innings with no injury history over the course of his career. For that, $60MM is not a huge risk.
Up until the trade yesterday, he’d provided $10MM negative value on the contract over three years. That’s not a drastic mistake.
You’re applying my theory to a situation in which it doesn’t really apply. But thanks for trying.
-C
It’s rough to sit through these games and not have someone that can’t hit a Ball?
You're talking about making....
a late 30s starter your highest paid player. That is always a huge risk imo. If we were the Yankees, then we could absorb that salary easily. But when he’s anywhere from 15+% to 18+% of your entire payroll, that’s too much imo.
This isn’t Roger Clemens on the juice we’re talking about here. Yeah, Lowe would have been worth it from 30-35, but that’s not the Lowe we were signing. We were signing 36-39 year old Lowe, and the vast, vast majority of starting pitchers get worse in their late 30s. So again, the risk, in part from age, and in part from our payroll constraints, was too much to take.
http://sportsandgrits.com/
Which is why we signed Lowe at 35, thus skipping the years where you expect a big money FA to be highly productive and healthy and going straight to the nail biter years where you expect them to be in decline and an increased injury risk. And Kawakami a 33 year old rookie from Japan with no guarantee at all that he’d even be worth the cost of printing up his contract.
Could Sabathia have fallen apart? Sure. Any player can. Part of offering anyone a big contract is evaluating them and trying to figure out what the odds are that they bomb before it’s over. Sabathia, IMO, looked like a pretty safe bet for the next 3 years. The clause is actually kind of brilliant because it gave him a strong incentive to pitch well and get in shape.
Q: If not us, who? If not now, when? A: The Batman. And "when you least expect it."
There were some definite concerns with Sabathia entering that contract.
If you’ll remember, the Brewers pitched him on short rest for most of that September, including a complete game in his final regular season outing – which led to him getting bombed on in the playoffs.
Did the Indians up his innings total by more than 50 IP and then get it upped again by the Brewers?? Yes. Did he pitch 500 innings in two years?? Yes. Did he end up getting injured?? No.
-C
It’s rough to sit through these games and not have someone that can’t hit a Ball?
A guy proving himself capable of pitching around 250 innings in back-to-back seasons with no fall off in overall performance is a reason to not go after him? Okay.
Q: If not us, who? If not now, when? A: The Batman. And "when you least expect it."
It makes him capable of being injured due to overwork as well.
-C
It’s rough to sit through these games and not have someone that can’t hit a Ball?
that was my concern with Sabathia
not so much the workload as a whole, but how the Brewers used him as much as possible. Short rest, extended innings game after game after game. They rode him as hard as possible that short stint. But he’s been a very durable arm.
http://sportsandgrits.com/
you have got to be kidding
we went into that offseason saying that we needed a top of the rotation starter. Sabathia, Burnett and Lowe were the only ones considered to be possible TOR starters. Peavy was another guy who we might have been able to get but we wouldn’t give up Hanson.
There is no way Frank Wren knew that Jurrjens would have a sophomore season as well as he did. That Hanson would come up in the middle of the season dominating and that Kris Medlen would shine as much as he did as a starter. He needed to go into that year with a solid 1-5 and not play any guessing games after that 2008 season where basically every starter we had went down with an injury.
At the time the Lowe signing was perfect. We only had Jurrjens and Vazquez who were penciled into that opening day rotation (Hudson was recovering from TJS). A bit of an over pay but something we had to do to get the starter we needed.
by drumzalicious on Oct 31, 2011 9:03 PM EDT up reply actions
"we went into that offseason saying that we needed a top of the rotation starter"
hence trading for Javy Vazquez. Mission accomplished. Why the overkill and severe overpay too?
And you’re kidding on Hanson right? He was already deemed ready, had a lights out Arizona in a hitter’s paradise of a league, and the only reason we didn’t have him up from opening day was to play service time games and add an extra year of control. We might not have expected him to be as dominant as he was that year, but it was easily expected him to come up and perform well.
Medlen also didn’t “shine” as a starter, but you clearly aren’t wanting to argue reality.
http://sportsandgrits.com/
no one in their right mind was thinking Javy was a TOR starter. If anything people were saying he’d be a good #3 starter. A guy who had some solid seasons and would give you 200IP with the benefit of 200Ks however an ERA around 4. (Yes I used ERA, quickest stat.)
No I am not kidding about Hanson. We had one person who was a lock for our rotation that year and that was Jurrjens. There was no way after the collapse of our pitching staff in 2008 that Wren was going to not make sure he had 5 starters ready to go out of ST. Hanson had one good year under his belt with half of it being at AA. One good year in the minors does not equal instant success. You can blame guys like JoJo Reyes and Charlie Morton who had done great in our minor leagues but never brought it to the bigs. Those guys probably put the extra caution in Wren’s mind about opening the season with Hanson.
And Medlen did shine as a starter in AAA. Hence the reason he was actually called up before Hanson. He had better numbers than Hanson did in AAA at the time of his call up.
by drumzalicious on Oct 31, 2011 9:19 PM EDT up reply actions
"People" may not have, but "people" tend to be idiots
we acquired Vazquez to be a top of the rotation guy, and had been lusting after him for years for precisely that reason.
http://sportsandgrits.com/
we did not acquire him to be a TOR guy. We acquired him to give us 200innings and be able to get around 200 ks. Something he did consistently for years.
Quote from AJC when the trade was made
The Braves entered the offseason determined to sign two accomplished and reliable starting pitchers.Vazquez, steady if unspectacular, gives them the durable veteran they lacked in 2008 after injuries to John Smoltz, Tom Glavine and Tim Hudson.
The Braves continue to search for a No. 1-caliber starter. They are one of six teams in negotiations with Toronto free agent A.J. Burnett, who won 18 games and led the American League with 231 strikeouts in 2008.
by drumzalicious on Oct 31, 2011 10:01 PM EDT up reply actions
Not really...
Go back and search the WAR leaders from 2006-2008. Lowe’s 12th on the list. He was absolutely a premier talent prior to coming to Atlanta.
-C
It’s rough to sit through these games and not have someone that can’t hit a Ball?
How much of that is duarability related?
WAR is a counting stat. More games, more innings = more WAR. Correct me if I’m wrong, because we all know I’m not the most educated on advanced stats. But Lowe has been amazingly durable constantly taking his turn on schedule and eating massive amounts of innings.
From a stuff standpoint, he’s not a #1 to me. He makes me think of a Jurrjens, good enough to be front of the rotation, but not a true #1.
And of course, all of this still boils down to my deal breaker, that much, for that long, with our limited budget. That’s my deal breaker, unless we’re talking about elite starters. Lowe has prior to coming here, to me, was a good not great starter. Good stuff, not great, and LA if I’m not mistaken is a park perfectly suited to his stuff.
http://sportsandgrits.com/
Every park is suited to a GB pitcher. There’s not a park profile where they project monumentally better or worse. The foul ground helps a bit, but that advantage is lesser for a GB pitcher than a FB pitcher.
Also, you can’t discount for durability, because that is incredibly valuable. But, for fun, I added a 450 IP minimum innings limit (150 IP on average for that time period, more than a fair expectation for any starter), and Lowe comes up 11th in FIP.
-C
It’s rough to sit through these games and not have someone that can’t hit a Ball?
Durability
he’s 36 when we signed him, and we saw him break down more when he was here than in the 3 years prior. Yes, you can discount durability when you’re evaluating a starter in his late 30s. We’ll just have to be at odds over that issue.
http://sportsandgrits.com/
Ω
If I’m not mistaken, Lowe only missed one start in his three-year stint in Atlanta. And if you recall, after missing that start he was very dominant in Sept. of 2010. So, maybe a missed start here or there would have done him some good in 2011.
If by breaking down you mean pitching craptastically, then I misunderstood your comment and agree. I took “break down more” as meaning injury related, in which I disagree but will defend to the death your right to say it.
Yeah, well, you know, that's just, like, uh, your opinion, man. -The Dude
It seemed like he missed more
from foot blisters to finger blisters, etc.
http://sportsandgrits.com/
Im not sure much of it is durability. After a quick look at his stats the one thing that obviously changed from his years with the Dodgers to when he was with us was his walk percentage and his BABIP both rose quite a bit.
by drumzalicious on Nov 1, 2011 12:48 PM EDT up reply actions
Foul territory could easily affect the walk rate.
'There are two pains in life. There is the pain of discipline and the pain of disappointment. If you can handle the pain of discipline, then you'll never have to deal with the pain of disappointment,'- Nick Saban
Or, you know, NOT overreacting to the market
We could have lived without signing anyone, you know. We basically showed Tom Glavine the door instead of letting him get healthy that same offseason. Glavine could have pitched decently for us, and we could have used that money in many, many other ways.
My buddy and I just decided that the braves would be set if we could get Matt Kemp, Jose Reyes, and Albert Pujols.
by willlinn on May 17, 2011 2:13 PM EDT
*COUGH LEFT FIELD COUGH
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Oct 31, 2011 5:15 PM EDT up reply actions
Think about who else we had that year at starter, too
Kawakami was just as Lowe was that season. I’m pretty sure we had already signed him by the time the Derek Lowe deal came down. We were closing in on a deal for Javier Vasquez. We would later sign Tom Glavine for $1 million with a $1.5 million bonus if he made a major league start for us. Tommy Hanson had just mutilated high A and moved on to dominate AA, and would be called up by May the next year. We could have lived with a mediocre fifth starter like Jorge Campillo for a month or so. It’s not like we were destined to make the playoffs in 2009.
My buddy and I just decided that the braves would be set if we could get Matt Kemp, Jose Reyes, and Albert Pujols.
by willlinn on May 17, 2011 2:13 PM EDT
I’m not going to lie – I was excited when we signed Lowe.
I think it was more that we didn’t sign Burnett and didn’t trade for Peavy though.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Oct 31, 2011 5:21 PM EDT up reply actions
I still think we got lucky on three points:
1. Burnett opting to NY;
2. Kevin Towers being a jerk.
3. Furcal’s agent being a bigger jerk.
"Forget Roy Halladay or Clayton Kershaw or Cliff Lee, the NL Cy Young Award should go to O’Ventrel." - David Schoenfield, ESPN.com, 8/19/11
I think we would have been happy with Furcal at 2B.
It would have prevented us from bringing Alex G here, as Furcal would have slid over to SS if they still wanted to dump Yunel. That also would have saved us from signing GA, IIRC and Prado could have started his LF adventures 2 years early.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Oct 31, 2011 5:25 PM EDT up reply actions
I was thinking of Furcal’s price vs. playing time (over 100 games only once in past 5 years). That would have been severely disruptive.
"Forget Roy Halladay or Clayton Kershaw or Cliff Lee, the NL Cy Young Award should go to O’Ventrel." - David Schoenfield, ESPN.com, 8/19/11
Butterfly effect
Would he have gotten hurt if he were in Atlanta?
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Oct 31, 2011 5:33 PM EDT up reply actions
oh sheesh,… now you want my hindsight to have hindsight…
"Forget Roy Halladay or Clayton Kershaw or Cliff Lee, the NL Cy Young Award should go to O’Ventrel." - David Schoenfield, ESPN.com, 8/19/11
lol
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Oct 31, 2011 5:37 PM EDT up reply actions
as per a previous argument where you denied the butterfly effect, you are effectively estopped from using that argument…thank you.
"No. Lonely people mixing with one another? Breeding? Creating an even lonelier generation? You're not even allowing natural selection do its work. Pssh. You're like the guy who invented the seat belt."
Dwight Schrute
Hey, I can use it when it best suits me.
Why do you think it was fresh on my mind?
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Oct 31, 2011 10:19 PM EDT up reply actions
I’m not going to lie – I was excited when we signed Lowe. I think it was more that we didn’t sign Burnett and didn’t trade for Peavy though.
I think we would have been happy with Furcal at 2B. It would have prevented us from bringing Alex G here, as Furcal would have slid over to SS if they still wanted to dump Yunel.
I agree with both of those propositions. I hope that doesn’t soften your resolve for either of them.
Really, you think we were lucky on #2?
Peavy HAS been hurt, but he’s posted a lower ERA than Derek Lowe over the past three seasons, while making (slightly) less money, while pitching the AL (higher R/G). So, we’re lucky that we had to settle for paying $55 million for 3 years of Lowe instead of completing the trade for Peavy?
My buddy and I just decided that the braves would be set if we could get Matt Kemp, Jose Reyes, and Albert Pujols.
by willlinn on May 17, 2011 2:13 PM EDT
It would have cost us Hanson and Yunel…
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Oct 31, 2011 5:28 PM EDT up reply actions
I don't recall Hanson being a part of that negotiation
And they were also interested in Kelly Johnson. We didn’t want to give up Kelly Johnson or Yunel Escobar at the time, and since then we’ve parted ways with both.
So yeah, I’m not giving Frank Wren too much credit for how “brilliant” a GM he is. He’s been…average, with the benefit of a strong scouting and player development program. That’s the real strength of the organization, and Wren’s wheeling and dealing is hit or miss.
My buddy and I just decided that the braves would be set if we could get Matt Kemp, Jose Reyes, and Albert Pujols.
by willlinn on May 17, 2011 2:13 PM EDT
I’m pretty sure that Hanson was the deal-breaker for Wren in those talks.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Oct 31, 2011 5:33 PM EDT up reply actions
May not have been Hanson or bust
but with no Hanson he wanted the two or three best prospects in the system plus Yunel.
'There are two pains in life. There is the pain of discipline and the pain of disappointment. If you can handle the pain of discipline, then you'll never have to deal with the pain of disappointment,'- Nick Saban
We had the deal
with Vazquez done and on the books long, long before signing Lowe. So that was finalized. And I’d agree on KK. I think they were announced at the same time, or maybe just after. But considering pulling him from Japan, I assume that was in the works and all but announced long before Lowe put pen to paper.
http://sportsandgrits.com/
Kris Medlen actually got called up before Tommy Hanson
And proved to be just one more guy who had a better season than Derek Lowe.
My buddy and I just decided that the braves would be set if we could get Matt Kemp, Jose Reyes, and Albert Pujols.
by willlinn on May 17, 2011 2:13 PM EDT
Yep, like Dunn...
and even if Glavine was far from himself, could he have pulled a Moyer? Soft tossing his way to success?
http://sportsandgrits.com/
I consider Uggla a potential bad contract. If he has a good 2012 , and Pastornicky does also, I’d sell high on Uggla.
TP projects better at 2B than SS.
If we can land [Stephen Drew], I will give FW a bj.
~justincredubil02
by king of games on Oct 31, 2011 2:21 PM EDT up reply actions
true
but for right now it looks like he is going to play SS and then who would play SS if he was moved to 2B?
in 2013 Simmons will probably be our SS, assuming he follows a traditional minor league arc.. 2012 in AA and possibly AAA, at which point he will be given a shot at the job in spring training 2013.
at least thats my projection for him at this point, which I realize is a ways off and lots of stuff could change things.
"No. Lonely people mixing with one another? Breeding? Creating an even lonelier generation? You're not even allowing natural selection do its work. Pssh. You're like the guy who invented the seat belt."
Dwight Schrute
that’s possible but wouldn’t it make more sense to trade Pastornicky in this scenario than Uggla since they are playing second base and Uggla would provide much better offensive production? Also, Pastornicky would bring back a greater return not to mention Simmons still hasn’t played in AA yet (which you mentioned)
I’m not really advocating for either side, just wanted to express my opinions on 2013 and the fact that Simmons is our SS of the future (for now).
I’m not sold that Pastornicky would provide a better return than Uggla, mostly because Uggla would contribute more offensively, and there are a fair amount of MI who aren’t great hitters. I envision Pastornicky being similar to Adam Kennedy (with slightly more offense and slightly less defense). I am sure Simmons would command more than Uggla, because he is highly thought of, or will be assuming a consistent path to the majors for him, but I would be staunchly against trading him.
I dont think Uggla will be a bad contract, but I don’t think Lowe’s contract is that bad in reference to other FA contracts, Lowe and his contract produced around 3M of negative value per year, which isn’t that bad considering how much negative value (in reference to salary) Zito, Burnett, Peavy, and a hundred other guys have produced. Generally you lose on FA contracts, you just want to not lose a lot, I think that will ultimately be the case throughout Uggla’s contract, so I am ok with that.
"No. Lonely people mixing with one another? Breeding? Creating an even lonelier generation? You're not even allowing natural selection do its work. Pssh. You're like the guy who invented the seat belt."
Dwight Schrute
Remember here...
…while Pastornicky and Simmons looked good in 2011, prospect stocks can rise and fall quickly, especially for someone like Simmons who had a questionable bat and is still in A-ball.
yes I tried to ensure that I kept that disclaimer in the post as much as possible we are projecting what will happen in two years using prospects…John Woodshed (imaginery SS) could be our nbr 1 SS prospect by 2013 and Simmons could be our 7th inning releiver (or 8th is Fredi finally explodes Venters arm)
"No. Lonely people mixing with one another? Breeding? Creating an even lonelier generation? You're not even allowing natural selection do its work. Pssh. You're like the guy who invented the seat belt."
Dwight Schrute
If you're trading Uggla
Nitram Odarp would like a word about being the full time 2B.
"Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that." George Carlin
by DolphinNation on Oct 31, 2011 2:22 PM EDT up reply actions
But…but…but…SS is the least important position on defense! /sarcasm
"Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that." George Carlin
by DolphinNation on Oct 31, 2011 3:44 PM EDT up reply actions
Double this
If Albert played in the AFL, they’d have to rename it the AZ/NM Fall League, based on where his homers landed.
In his defense our rotation at the time was terrible. It was incredibly untalented and nobody in the rotation could go deep into games. Derek Lowe was exactly the pitcher we needed at the time and he did pretty damn well when he first came over to help stabilize the rotation and eat innings. Sure 4 years was a little steep but we weren’t exactly a pitching hotbed anymore and he was highly coveted by a lot of teams at the time.
this is true
he was the 3rd best starter on the market that year and we bit the bullet
by drumzalicious on Oct 31, 2011 1:57 PM EDT up reply actions
Whadya mean?
We had Jo-Jo Reyes!
If Albert played in the AFL, they’d have to rename it the AZ/NM Fall League, based on where his homers landed.
and if you rememebr that was the season eh was gonna put it all together and be dominant, remember?…anyone?
"No. Lonely people mixing with one another? Breeding? Creating an even lonelier generation? You're not even allowing natural selection do its work. Pssh. You're like the guy who invented the seat belt."
Dwight Schrute
Was that the same year that Francoeur was going to turn it around?
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Oct 31, 2011 10:20 PM EDT up reply actions
that was the year before. although it was also that year, and the two years before that.
"No. Lonely people mixing with one another? Breeding? Creating an even lonelier generation? You're not even allowing natural selection do its work. Pssh. You're like the guy who invented the seat belt."
Dwight Schrute
The good ol’ days…
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Oct 31, 2011 10:25 PM EDT up reply actions
ah man remember when Mike Hampton was actually on track to start the 08 season?
by drumzalicious on Oct 31, 2011 10:41 PM EDT up reply actions
I remember he even took pre-game warmup pitches once!
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Oct 31, 2011 10:44 PM EDT up reply actions
and came right on out
lol. He did make some solid starts towards the end of that season. You know AFTER we weren’t going to make the playoffs
by drumzalicious on Oct 31, 2011 10:46 PM EDT up reply actions
Strained areolas
Are nothing to laugh about.
by Sam Jethroe on Nov 1, 2011 1:14 AM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
you sir
just made me wake up my house laughing lol.
by drumzalicious on Nov 1, 2011 1:26 AM EDT up reply actions
And I'm still waiting on Eric Campbell...
If Albert played in the AFL, they’d have to rename it the AZ/NM Fall League, based on where his homers landed.
And Jo-Jo
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Nov 1, 2011 3:00 PM EDT up reply actions
No
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Nov 2, 2011 8:45 PM EDT up reply actions
Sounds a lot like alot of us said it would be.
FW was willing to eat 10 mil for 5 mil of freedom.
Chris Jones coming back from Cleveland
young lefty reliever
quick stuff I found on him
http://www.indiansprospectinsider.com/2010/06/jones-could-fill-bullpen-void.html
http://www.indiansprospectinsider.com/search/label/Chris%20Jones
Chris Jones (LHP – Lake County/Kinston)
6-5, 2.51 ERA, 38 G, 89.2 IP, 76 H, 4 HR, 29 BB, 85 K, 1.17 WHIP, 2.9 BB/9, 8.5 K/9
Jones made a successful full time transition to the bullpen in 2010, and looks to be one of the better left-handed relief options in the system going forward. He opened the season at Low-A Lake County and was great (22.0 IP, 16 H, 2 BB, 20 K) before quickly going to High-A Kinston in mid-May where he finished well (67.2 IP, 60 H, 27 BB, 65 K). He proved tough on lefties at Kinston (1.83 ERA, .203 BAA, 12.3 K/9). Overall on the season he held opposing hitters to a .226 batting average and allowed just four home runs in 89.2 innings.
Was just about to post this.
If we can land [Stephen Drew], I will give FW a bj.
~justincredubil02
by king of games on Oct 31, 2011 1:21 PM EDT up reply actions
I think the Braves just like collecting Jones’. But it looks like a pretty good pickup by Wren.
If we can land [Stephen Drew], I will give FW a bj.
~justincredubil02
by king of games on Oct 31, 2011 1:22 PM EDT up reply actions
2011 Numbers
7-1, 3.36 ERA, 43 G, 72.1 IP, 65 H, 6 HR, 30 BB, 66 K, 1.32 WHIP
If we can land [Stephen Drew], I will give FW a bj.
~justincredubil02
by king of games on Oct 31, 2011 1:29 PM EDT up reply actions
fwiw
that ‘indiansprospectinsider’ has Jones as around the 70th best Indians prospect. Sounds a little odd to me, given the stats, but I continue to be amazed at our scouts.
"Forget Roy Halladay or Clayton Kershaw or Cliff Lee, the NL Cy Young Award should go to O’Ventrel." - David Schoenfield, ESPN.com, 8/19/11
As my first post with Talking Chop
It feels great to comment on this. I could never understand why people want FW fired. The guy is extremely proactive and gets things done. He’s made his share of faults here and there but this past season’s team is the most talent thats been assembled on a Bravos roster in a while.
As Parcells would say, he’s getting the groceries, its time for Fredi to start cooking. Although I’m quite sure that man can’t even correctly turn on a oven.
You seem to have too much sense to comment here...
But welcome either way!
Go USA, Braves, BU Terriers, Irish, Caps, Skins, NU Cats, Wizards, DC United, Washington Freedom
BU Hockey: National Champions 1971, 1972, 1978, 1995, 2009
Welcome!
"Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that." George Carlin
by DolphinNation on Oct 31, 2011 3:32 PM EDT up reply actions
I heard the Indians GM offered to take all of Lowe's salary if we took all their bugs
FW’s response: Who do you think I work for, the Oakland Raiders?
Note: Not actually true, but you can imagine what it would be like if it was
DFA Heyward. I'm dead serious
by wpf3211 on Aug 6, 2011 9:11 PM EDT
When all else fails – beat yourself.
by NCChopper on Sep 12, 2011 9:47 PM EDT
Had to be done & exactly the numbers I figured it would take
we need all the flexibility we can get. Good move FW!
awwww yeeeahhh!
You shouldn’t sip liquor.
-justincredubil02
no, Jack Daniel is whiskey.
-ChopMaster
"Welcome to the show, Brandon Beachy. I think you’re going to stay a while."
Crazy to think about
But I think you could make a great case that Lowe worked out better than any of the guys who seemed like the best alternatives at the time: signing Burnett or trading for Jake Peavy.
Braves end up paying Lowe 45 million for 3 years, plus 10 mill to get rid of him. 55 mill total.
White Sox paid Peavy 48 million for 3 years, and will have to pay 4 million to buy out his option. 52 total (plus the guys they traded including Clayton Richard).
Yankees paid Burnett 49.5 million for 3 years, and still have him for 2 years at 33 million. 82.5 million.
Obviously the only way to win that game is not to play, but it sure seemed like we needed one of them at the time.
We could not have paid Burnett that kind of money, but i see what you’re driving at.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Jun 28, 2011 9:50 PM EDT reply actions
by ChopMaster on Jul 3, 2011 3:52 PM EDT reply actions
reports were that we were offering a contract to Burnett in that neighborhood and just got outbid by the Yankees, the Braves’ bid for Burnett was substantially higher than the one for Lowe.
"No. Lonely people mixing with one another? Breeding? Creating an even lonelier generation? You're not even allowing natural selection do its work. Pssh. You're like the guy who invented the seat belt."
Dwight Schrute
really?
wow.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Jun 28, 2011 9:50 PM EDT reply actions
by ChopMaster on Jul 3, 2011 3:52 PM EDT reply actions
I just looked it up and it wasn’t as substantial as I thought… the deal was for four years at around 16-17M, with an option for the fifth year. Burnett probably would have signed with us, had we guaranteed that last year, according to my memory of the reports that came out.
So i was wrong i guess, but it was close to the Yankees offer, they just offered that extra year guaranteed.
"No. Lonely people mixing with one another? Breeding? Creating an even lonelier generation? You're not even allowing natural selection do its work. Pssh. You're like the guy who invented the seat belt."
Dwight Schrute
Of course, combine that with KK and it’s a pretty rough offseason. At least we didn’t actually manage to get Furcal. That would have been a mistake.
KK was very good his first year.
If we can land [Stephen Drew], I will give FW a bj.
~justincredubil02
by king of games on Oct 31, 2011 1:59 PM EDT up reply actions
Was Dempster a FA that year? He probably would have been the best possible value in this payroll range.
If Albert played in the AFL, they’d have to rename it the AZ/NM Fall League, based on where his homers landed.
The best values that year
were Randy Wolf, Carl Pavano, and Jon Garland, if I recall correctly.
http://sportsandgrits.com/
Yeah
Saw your post after mine. Good stuff
Dempster signed earlier that off-season at $52M/4. That was probably the best signing in that mid-range for 2009 (leaving aside the one-year guys and CC).
If Albert played in the AFL, they’d have to rename it the AZ/NM Fall League, based on where his homers landed.
Dempster was never really a FA though, I think he got what he wanted from the Cubs and signed without even looking elsewhere
"No. Lonely people mixing with one another? Breeding? Creating an even lonelier generation? You're not even allowing natural selection do its work. Pssh. You're like the guy who invented the seat belt."
Dwight Schrute
I believe this move is an obvious precursor to a transition of Prado from LF to SS. Without Lowe’s extreme ground ball percentage, it only makes sense to move Prado to an infield position where he is most natural at.
To the TC’er who proposed this move, I give you my loudest applause. Too bad TC doesn’t have the poke function like Facebook has. I think this should be our highest priority of the offseason.
Daffy Duck goes to bed at 10:00 every night, except on New Year's Eve, he goes to bed at 8:30.
You are incorrect, Lowe had a very high groundball % rate. How are you going to say approx. 60% groundballs is not a high rate?
Daffy Duck goes to bed at 10:00 every night, except on New Year's Eve, he goes to bed at 8:30.
by bwellnjonesco on Oct 31, 2011 2:03 PM EDT up reply actions
That's not what his objection was
The notion of this being…
.an obvious precursor to a transition of Prado from LF to SSis mind-bogglingly wrong. See this thread link if you want to see the rants against that idea from just a couple of days ago.
"Forget Roy Halladay or Clayton Kershaw or Cliff Lee, the NL Cy Young Award should go to O’Ventrel." - David Schoenfield, ESPN.com, 8/19/11
Do you know what mind-bogglingly wrong means? Me neither, but I know It doesn’t mean that balls will not be hit at the shortstop this year without Lowe’s pitching. Why not put Prado at the least important position on the field with all the pitches not going into the ground in front of him without Lowe?
Besides, I still think that 60% rate is above average.
Daffy Duck goes to bed at 10:00 every night, except on New Year's Eve, he goes to bed at 8:30.
by bwellnjonesco on Oct 31, 2011 2:11 PM EDT up reply actions
um, yes I do.
Inexplicably wrong.
Unfathomably wrong.
from m-w.com: “mentally or emotionally exciting or overwhelming” (and I’m taking the ‘overwhelming’)
Yes, a 60% GB rate is above average. Nobody is arguing that point. Here’s the point:
PRADO CAN’T PLAY SHORTSTOP. And it’s STILL the most important fielding position – no matter who is pitching… but especially given the range issues of Jones and Uggla. I can’t even believe I have to defend this.
"Forget Roy Halladay or Clayton Kershaw or Cliff Lee, the NL Cy Young Award should go to O’Ventrel." - David Schoenfield, ESPN.com, 8/19/11
sooo
Lowe was the only guy that got GB outs??? Outside of Hudson both Hanson and Jurrjens average about a 40% GB%
by drumzalicious on Oct 31, 2011 2:20 PM EDT up reply actions
First you argue against a 60% rate, now you are defending a 40% rate?
That equals 100%, which is the correlation of balls not being hit to the shortstop when Lowe is not pitching. Are you guys trolling me or something?
Daffy Duck goes to bed at 10:00 every night, except on New Year's Eve, he goes to bed at 8:30.
by bwellnjonesco on Oct 31, 2011 2:26 PM EDT up reply actions
ZING!!!!!!
"Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that." George Carlin
by DolphinNation on Oct 31, 2011 2:34 PM EDT up reply actions
Haha, that makes sense right now.
Daffy Duck goes to bed at 10:00 every night, except on New Year's Eve, he goes to bed at 8:30.
by bwellnjonesco on Oct 31, 2011 2:35 PM EDT up reply actions
Whenever that stuff you’re on wears off, come back then and read your own posts. Then get back to us. Please believe me: you are making no sense whatsoever (and I’m not even talking about baseball — just even English seems to be a problem.)
"Forget Roy Halladay or Clayton Kershaw or Cliff Lee, the NL Cy Young Award should go to O’Ventrel." - David Schoenfield, ESPN.com, 8/19/11
I had to rewrite them a couple times to make them sound that ridiculous. This is the result of hearing such wonderful news about Lowe being traded and being stuck in a cubical.
Daffy Duck goes to bed at 10:00 every night, except on New Year's Eve, he goes to bed at 8:30.
by bwellnjonesco on Oct 31, 2011 2:36 PM EDT up reply actions
Thank you.
When I read the first post, I assumed it was written in sarcasm font, but when you played it out so well (with so many just assuming it wasn’t) I was beginning to wonder.
If this were April 1st instead of Oct. 31st, it would have been perfect.
"Forget Roy Halladay or Clayton Kershaw or Cliff Lee, the NL Cy Young Award should go to O’Ventrel." - David Schoenfield, ESPN.com, 8/19/11
Oct. 31st is the next best day…or would you rather had a treat.
In all seriousness, I apologize. That was immature of me. Like I said, I was really excited when I heard the news. The girl that I sit beside gave me the biggest “I don’t give a shit” look in the world, so I chose the immature route.
Daffy Duck goes to bed at 10:00 every night, except on New Year's Eve, he goes to bed at 8:30.
by bwellnjonesco on Oct 31, 2011 2:55 PM EDT up reply actions
I followed the sarcasm the entire time, butI wasn’t gettin concerned towards the end there, that maybe you lost your mind.
"No. Lonely people mixing with one another? Breeding? Creating an even lonelier generation? You're not even allowing natural selection do its work. Pssh. You're like the guy who invented the seat belt."
Dwight Schrute
I try not to break this out too often, but
My buddy and I just decided that the braves would be set if we could get Matt Kemp, Jose Reyes, and Albert Pujols.
by willlinn on May 17, 2011 2:13 PM EDT
"at the least important position on the field "
this is some quality trolling right here.
http://sportsandgrits.com/
I could have been all-state my senior year in high school. Seven years later, I just wish I had a time machine so I could go back and wear that blue tux to prom.
Daffy Duck goes to bed at 10:00 every night, except on New Year's Eve, he goes to bed at 8:30.
by bwellnjonesco on Oct 31, 2011 4:00 PM EDT up reply actions
YES!!!!!!
Thank you God for this glorious day!
Frank. Freeeking. Wren.
"Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that." George Carlin
First post in a while
YAY! Glad this got done early instead of being put off like the attempts to deal KK last offseason.
So excited
This is the best gift that you could ever receive on a non-holiday Monday. Thank you Frank Wren.
Blasphemy
How dare you call Halloween a non-holiday!
Lead off walks usually lead to runs, unless they don't. -Joe Simpson
If you don't like the way the Atlanta Braves are playing, then you don't like baseball. -Chuck Tanner
Because...
…you are sitting in your office at work?
Got on Talking Chop, saw this article, and my heart stopped for a second
Frank Freaking Wren
WAHOOO
Frank Wren is a genius. My off season plans have gone into effect and it looks like Wren agrees.
Trade Lowe…Check
OK…so as long as your plan is starting to take shape, can you muster up a trade for a stud LF now? If you wouldn’t mind acquiring this player, we’d appreciate it. Oh, and right-handed, please.
Kind Regards,
Talking Chop
"Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that." George Carlin
by DolphinNation on Oct 31, 2011 2:29 PM EDT up reply actions
LOL
mlbbowman
Texted a #Braves player to tell him Lowe had been traded to Indians. His reply, “For? A couple visits to the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame?”
man I want to know who it was.
wow. that's really rough
Braves.
Falcons.
Gamecocks.
I just LOL’d. Betcha it was Hinske.
"Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that." George Carlin
by DolphinNation on Oct 31, 2011 2:15 PM EDT up reply actions
Probably Chipper. Freddie, Jason, and Michael are too new to the team, Uggla and McCann are too supportive, Prado wouldn’t say that. The pitchers all seemed pretty tight with Lowe.
I could see Bowman texting Hinske for his opinion on his extended option and letting him know Lowe has been traded while he was at it.
Daffy Duck goes to bed at 10:00 every night, except on New Year's Eve, he goes to bed at 8:30.
by bwellnjonesco on Oct 31, 2011 2:17 PM EDT up reply actions
except he's not our player anymore
or won’t be when we decline to offer arb.
http://sportsandgrits.com/
I'm not in love with the move,
but it opens a spot in the rotation for a younger, better pitcher in Minor.
Now I would love to see someone like Brandon Hicks get a chance at winning the full time job at short in the spring. And if FW goes out and signs Cuddyer or Willigham would it be possible to send Jurrjens and Prado to the Royals for Moustakas? It would give us a 3rd baseman for the post Chipper era. I’m interested on some others feelings on this. Am I way off base here or is it within the realm of possibility?
I don’t understand the sentiment that of all teams, the Royals would be the ones who move into “win now” mode and start trading their top young players. Trading for a new stud 3B of the future sounds great, but I don’t know if there’s anyone better than Prado who is feasibly available.
I can’t see the Royals giving him up at this point. I have to believe that he’s viewed as a cornerstone.
"Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that." George Carlin
by DolphinNation on Oct 31, 2011 2:26 PM EDT up reply actions
I think I’d heard somewhere that the Royals had soured a bit on Moustakas and they really want some good young pitching.
If we can land [Stephen Drew], I will give FW a bj.
~justincredubil02
by king of games on Oct 31, 2011 2:30 PM EDT up reply actions
I watched a few of his games this season, and he looked pretty over-matched at the plate. Maybe he’s Alex Gordon ver 2.0, in their eyes.
Regardless, it’ll take a haul to get him, IMO. JJ + maybe Hoover (see what I did there?) + another B-level prospect.
"Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that." George Carlin
by DolphinNation on Oct 31, 2011 2:32 PM EDT up reply actions
If they’re after good young pitching, wouldn’t they be more likely to target Minor/Vizcaino/Delgado, rather than JJ? I’m not too familiar with their financial situation, but I know that they slashed payroll pretty hard last year.
Well, they did get the $11mil Gil Meche gift.
If we can land [Stephen Drew], I will give FW a bj.
~justincredubil02
by king of games on Oct 31, 2011 2:36 PM EDT up reply actions
I don’t believe so, because they have about 10 of em coming up in the minors right now. IIRC, they had at least 7 pitchers in the BA Top 100 for 2011. Their farm system was rated 2nd overall (behind Tampa and just in front of us, IIRC).
I think they need someone for the top of the rotation as an anchor.
"Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that." George Carlin
by DolphinNation on Oct 31, 2011 2:38 PM EDT up reply actions
I am pretty sure most places...
…ranked the Royals #1. And yes, they had a ton of pitchers and hitters in almost everyone’s top 100.
Just pulled that (see below) off BA’s site. That’s effin’ ridiculous.
"Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that." George Carlin
by DolphinNation on Oct 31, 2011 2:45 PM EDT up reply actions
My fault...five pitchers and four hitters
Pitchers:
18. John Lamb, lhp, Royals
19. Mike Montgomery, lhp, Royals
68. Danny Duffy, lhp, Royals
69. Jake Odorizzi, rhp, Royals
83. Chris Dwyer, lhp, Royals
Hitters:
8. Eric Hosmer, 1b, Royals
9. Mike Moustakas, 3b, Royals
10. Wil Myers, of/c, Royals
51. Christian Colon, ss, Royals
Holy shit…stocked much?
"Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that." George Carlin
by DolphinNation on Oct 31, 2011 2:42 PM EDT up reply actions
True, if they’re already loaded in that department, then they have no reason to trade for any more young pitching. I guess I just don’t envision other teams seeing JJ as the “anchor” to the rotation, given his iffy peripherals, slight injury concerns and looming free agency (and Boras as an agent, no less). I’d love to be wrong, but I think JJ is more likely to net us a package more like the one that we got from the Yankees for Vazquez, rather than a traditional top prospect centerpiece.
I believe there were some major injuries and/or underperformances amongst those five pitchers.
If we can land [Stephen Drew], I will give FW a bj.
~justincredubil02
by king of games on Oct 31, 2011 2:55 PM EDT up reply actions
Yep...
Lamb was injury most of the year. Montgomery had a poor season due mainly to control issues. Duffy was great until getting his MLB promotion, but he didn’t fare too well. Odorizzi and Dwyer both strugged at AA.
Obviously all these guys have time to right the ship, but 2011 wasn’t a good year for any of them.
-C
It’s rough to sit through these games and not have someone that can’t hit a Ball?
Thanks, far too lazy to do all of that research myself. Makes sense they might be a bit worried about their vaunted pitching prospects and maybe looking for more of a sure thing.
If we can land [Stephen Drew], I will give FW a bj.
~justincredubil02
by king of games on Oct 31, 2011 4:29 PM EDT up reply actions
Not when he first came up, he wasn’t.
"Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that." George Carlin
by DolphinNation on Oct 31, 2011 4:55 PM EDT up reply actions
1st season not so much. His 2nd season was pretty solid.
by drumzalicious on Oct 31, 2011 9:07 PM EDT up reply actions
After this move, for some crazy reason, the phrase “Jimmy Rollins signs a 2 year contract with the Atlanta Braves” keeps running into my head. Discuss…just for kicks, and yes, I know he wants a 5 year deal, before I get lit into here.
"Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that." George Carlin
If you are going to get a silly, impossible idea in your head...
…how about Pujols for two years? I mean, we might as well go whole hog when we are getting ridiculous.
Nah…Reyes AND Kemp instead.
"Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that." George Carlin
by DolphinNation on Oct 31, 2011 2:44 PM EDT up reply actions
I’d rather hold off for a year, then go hard for Kemp.
I’d rather have one superstar in free agency then two stars.
As good as Kemp would look in a Braves uni, I think we’re reaching here. Barring Mark Cuban becoming majority owner of the Braves between now and then, I don’t think we have the financial ability to bring a guy of that caliber into the fold. Besides, we have to start thinking contract extensions for Mac, Heyward, Hanson and JJ – that’s assuming neither JJ or Tommy get traded between now and then.
Above and beyond the $11.5 million we just took off the books for 2012 (depending on the options picked up and arb contracts with Prado, EOF and JJ), we’ll free up a lot of money after next season with Chipper, Bourn (if not re-signed), and the balance of Lowe’s contract coming off the books. What’s that, about $37 million?
"Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that." George Carlin
by DolphinNation on Oct 31, 2011 3:48 PM EDT up reply actions
Keep in mind that Chipper’s deal has a vesting option for 2013.
Q: If not us, who? If not now, when? A: The Batman. And "when you least expect it."
Indeed…forgot about that. Thanks.
"Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that." George Carlin
by DolphinNation on Oct 31, 2011 3:52 PM EDT up reply actions
from cot's
http://mlbcontracts.blogspot.com/2005/01/atlanta-braves_15.html
13:$7M club option
2013 option guaranteed at $9M with:
123 games in 2012, or
average of 127 games in 2011-12
2013 option price increases by $1M each for:
128, 133, 138, 140 games in 2012, or
averages of 132, 137, 138, 140 games in 2011-12
He had 126 games in 2011, so that 123 in 2012 mark is the key to making his option (which is relatively cheap) guaranteed. Although getting 135 or so and hitting those $1m escalators isn’t out of thye question.
http://sportsandgrits.com/
I was looking at that, too: it will be interesting to see if Chipper starts playing every day to give himself a shot at that vesting level.
"Forget Roy Halladay or Clayton Kershaw or Cliff Lee, the NL Cy Young Award should go to O’Ventrel." - David Schoenfield, ESPN.com, 8/19/11
You’ll know by June 1st if he’s going to be back for ‘13. He’ll either be on the shelf a couple times by then, or play all but 1 game per week.
"Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that." George Carlin
by DolphinNation on Oct 31, 2011 4:07 PM EDT up reply actions
Ω
If Chipper plays all but one game per week by June 1st, he’ll be on the shelf by the end of the month. The main reason he was able to last as much as he did in 2011 was because he was in much better shape as a result of rehabbing his knee. Without that rehab this off-season, he likely won’t be in as good a shape and may not be able to stave off the injury bug as much.
Yeah, well, you know, that's just, like, uh, your opinion, man. -The Dude
Hudson’s contract is up at the end of 2012 if you decline his option right?
Add to that the $10mil for Lowe, and I think we can scrounge up $80mil/4 for a guy like Kemp, especially if we dump Uggla if he has a good year and sell high.
Interesting....
I do have a question though…….
Being that they are both FA at the end of the year and neither is likely to re-sign with their current team. Would you rather have Kemp in LF or a slightly cheaper David Wright at 3B?
With Chipper still at 3B, I’d take Kemp.
If Chipper is out of the picture, then I lean towards Wright.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Nov 1, 2011 1:09 AM EDT up reply actions
it’s not
bookmark this website it is required for all baseball fans. Its a wonderful resource.
http://mlbcontracts.blogspot.com/2005/01/atlanta-braves_15.html
"No. Lonely people mixing with one another? Breeding? Creating an even lonelier generation? You're not even allowing natural selection do its work. Pssh. You're like the guy who invented the seat belt."
Dwight Schrute
in case you didn’t heed Drumzalicious’s advice (P.S. change you user name it takes too long to reference you, I will henceforth call you Drum) the option escalates depending on how many games Chipper plays in 2012. It also become guaranteed if he reaches 123 games played in 2012.
so the option could become expensive, but if it does thats a good thing, bc Chipper is playing well and healthy (or at least he is playing)
"No. Lonely people mixing with one another? Breeding? Creating an even lonelier generation? You're not even allowing natural selection do its work. Pssh. You're like the guy who invented the seat belt."
Dwight Schrute
It’s a win-win-win
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Nov 1, 2011 10:26 AM EDT up reply actions
I take Kemp no matter what, Prado can play 3B. and Kemp is the better player (although both have shaky track records)
"No. Lonely people mixing with one another? Breeding? Creating an even lonelier generation? You're not even allowing natural selection do its work. Pssh. You're like the guy who invented the seat belt."
Dwight Schrute
To continue......
I think David can put up the same type numbers in a different park.
I guess I value a team with Kemp in LF and Prado at 3B more than a team with Prado in LF and Wright at 3B.
but it is pretty close, i think its probably a toss up.
"No. Lonely people mixing with one another? Breeding? Creating an even lonelier generation? You're not even allowing natural selection do its work. Pssh. You're like the guy who invented the seat belt."
Dwight Schrute
I'm not 100% sure it would be Prado in LF.....
For some reason, I just see the Braves trading Prado. Before everyone chimes in….. I like Prado. I think he works hard and is a good player. I just think the Braves are looking for more power than he will provide in LF and at 3B.
Kemp to Wright….. I can agree it would be a toss up, I just think Wright’s price tag will be a little easier to swallow.
But as far as this year goes.....
Those are 2 of the biggest reason’s why I would not sign Josh Willingham or extend Mike ( unless it’s very team friendly) at this point. Keep your money and options open to make a run at 1 or both of them next winter!
It doesn't matter
The Phillies are signing Wright this year, remember? And we’re going to use all our money signing Reyes in response.
Most people use statistics the way a drunk would use a lamppost—for support, and not for illumination.
www.duwanis.com
HOW could WE forget ABOUT that???
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Nov 1, 2011 10:27 AM EDT up reply actions
FINALLY
I just wish FW and Gonzalez had figured this out during the season. Oh well. Looking forward to whatever FW does next!
I'm just going back to what I said three years ago
“Really? We’re giving $60 million to Derek Lowe?”
Sometimes, you get what you deserve.
My buddy and I just decided that the braves would be set if we could get Matt Kemp, Jose Reyes, and Albert Pujols.
by willlinn on May 17, 2011 2:13 PM EDT
Tex Deal=Lowe signing=still wishing we had another $10MM to spend on the 2012 roster
Imagine a world with Harrison available and Feliz still being groomed as a starter, and Hanson and Jurrjens and Huddy coming back, we never need to do more than add Vazquez in 2009….
We have tremendous amounts of additional flexibility in the bench and in another starting OFer the past two years….this/these players make a tremendous difference in our postseason fortunes in 2010 and 2011…
I can understand why we signed Lowe in 2009, it was either that or Glavine and Smoltz and Carlyle and Campillo…..we needed to restore some respectability….but i cannot forgive the 4 years….we’ll be wishing we had the 10MM this year…
It irks the shit out of me to see Gondee putting “may have had to move JJurrjens”….that is asinine…if that’s the direction we’re gonna take with the big league club, i’ll just focus on the farms til we get new owners….ownership needs to pay for the mistakes they make, they are custodians of something far greater than their gross margin…it’s a public trust. And if we go over-budget by a few mil because Lowe was a colossal albatross of a move, then so be it, the better the club the more gate we draw. But don’t go moving guys who are building blocks because we have to finish paying a sunk cost like Lowe.
I would have gladly paid the freight for all of 2011 if we could have made this move in July, as long as the $5MM was coming in ‘12….we coulda moved his sorry ass out of the rotation and plugged in the kids for a few September starts…we only needed to win two more games….Lowe’s taking the bump cost us at least 4 or 5 wins down the stretch.
Poor hitting aside, injuries aside…it was within our management’s control to sit him down, and we opted not to. Why? To save face? We already had $14MM in KK and Nate dead money….making the best decision for the club was never even considered.
Derek Lowe infuriates me, and it isn’t even his fault. He just got old.
"Tex Deal"
"Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that." George Carlin
by DolphinNation on Oct 31, 2011 3:14 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
that topic name could read… “Tex Deal, nonsense about new ownership, failed understanding of public trust, poor business understanding”
"No. Lonely people mixing with one another? Breeding? Creating an even lonelier generation? You're not even allowing natural selection do its work. Pssh. You're like the guy who invented the seat belt."
Dwight Schrute
Good trtade Chris Jones was 7-1 , NOW Thw Atlanta Braves will have to Replace with Innings Pitched Leader ..Derek Lowe......187.0 innings pitched
It was a good trade But the Braves will need to replace his 187.0 innings pitched C.J. Wilson if he don’t resign would be nice.Mark Buehle is another, AAron Haraung?
NOW Thw Atlanta Braves will have to Replace with Innings Pitched Leader ..Derek Lowe……187.0 innings pitched
You mean with the likes of a healthy JJ, and the back of the rotation with Beachy, Minor, JT and Delgado? OK, fixed. Anything else we can do for you?
"Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that." George Carlin
by DolphinNation on Oct 31, 2011 3:21 PM EDT up reply actions
Ah crap…I forgot about Tommy Hanson being back as well. Again, fixed.
"Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that." George Carlin
by DolphinNation on Oct 31, 2011 3:22 PM EDT up reply actions
How 'bout that Medlen' kid?
Okay, a lot of folks here like the idea of having him in the bullpen. But he did come up as a starter. I don’t think even there he goes 150+ innings coming off TJ surgery, but don’t forget he’s still on the roster.
"Forget Roy Halladay or Clayton Kershaw or Cliff Lee, the NL Cy Young Award should go to O’Ventrel." - David Schoenfield, ESPN.com, 8/19/11
Bingo.
"Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that." George Carlin
by DolphinNation on Oct 31, 2011 3:53 PM EDT up reply actions
He did not "come up as a starter"
his max # of starts in a single season is 17.
He was a reliever his first 2 minor league seasons exclusively (58 games).
Then in 2008, he pitched in 36 games, with 17 starts for AA Mississippi.
In 09, 8 games, 6 starts with AAA Gwinnett, in addition to 37 games, 4 starts with Atlanta. (A total of 45 games, and 10 starts).
In 2010, 31 games, 14 starts all with Atlanta.
This year, 2 games out of the pen.
So he has never started in even half of his appearances in a given season.
http://sportsandgrits.com/
Okay, a bit glib on my part. I didn’t become familiar with him until seeing him in 2010… as a starter. So that’s my point of reference: his ‘coming up’ into Atlanta.
"Forget Roy Halladay or Clayton Kershaw or Cliff Lee, the NL Cy Young Award should go to O’Ventrel." - David Schoenfield, ESPN.com, 8/19/11
there is a lot wrong with this post, beyond the misspellings and grammar. CJ WIlson will want 4-5 years and somewhere around 17M a year. Buerhle needs a good defense behind him to be successful, which we don’t really have, Aaron Harang hasn’t been relevant in 3-4 years.
The reason we traded Lowe, was more because we have too many SP and not enough rotation spots than it was about saving money. Sure it is great to save $5M, but it is more important that instead of Lowe pitching his last year we give the young guys the opportunity to grow on a major league roster.
On the innings, Beachy was treated with kid gloves as a rookie and a fifth starter, you can assume he will pitch another 20 innings, if he is healthy, the same is true of Teheran or Delgado or Minor (or whoever gets the last spot in the rotation).
"No. Lonely people mixing with one another? Breeding? Creating an even lonelier generation? You're not even allowing natural selection do its work. Pssh. You're like the guy who invented the seat belt."
Dwight Schrute
Chris Jones went 7-1 in 72 innings, if we let him pitch 216 innings next season he’ll go 21-3. Problem solved.
Q: If not us, who? If not now, when? A: The Batman. And "when you least expect it."
Extrapolation!
perfect
My buddy and I just decided that the braves would be set if we could get Matt Kemp, Jose Reyes, and Albert Pujols.
by willlinn on May 17, 2011 2:13 PM EDT
bye bye D. Lowe
this wasn’t the greatest of a deal but it I’m sure Frank Wren does have some potential plans for the $5 Mil that this deal frees up. I’m interested to see what FW’s next move will be with a bit of salary relief.
Despite going back to the AL, I can easily see D. Lowe putting up respectable #3 starter type of numbers next year.
by LEastCoastBears on Oct 31, 2011 3:17 PM EDT reply actions
You can get away with that on Halloween.
by ducheneaux13 on Oct 31, 2011 5:58 PM EDT up reply actions
Odds that Lowe gets off to a good start next season and people start trashing this deal?
Q: If not us, who? If not now, when? A: The Batman. And "when you least expect it."
Even
because all of a sudden there are Lowe supporters here that are p*ssed off we traded him. SMH
"Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that." George Carlin
by DolphinNation on Oct 31, 2011 3:29 PM EDT up reply actions
I assume you are referring to myself and Yakker, we did not all of the sudden support Lowe, we just acknowledge that while he is overpaid he is still a very useful piece for a team. I am glad he was traded, he wasn’t what our team needed anymore, but to act like he was worthless is absurd.
"No. Lonely people mixing with one another? Breeding? Creating an even lonelier generation? You're not even allowing natural selection do its work. Pssh. You're like the guy who invented the seat belt."
Dwight Schrute
Hate to break the news, but
his 2011 statistics say different. To argue he was a meaningful cog on the ’11 team, and for that matter, his perceived contract value vs. his performance over the course of the entire contract, is mind-numbing. The bottom line – he had one good month for the Braves…ONE…September 2010.
IIRC, worthless is exactly what Lowe was for the Braves; especially this season.
"Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that." George Carlin
by DolphinNation on Oct 31, 2011 3:40 PM EDT up reply actions
Wrong.
His 2011 metrics, barring his BB%, are pretty much identical to his past years.
That said, I’m perfectly fine with him being gone, and wish him the best in Cleveland. I didn’t root for Yunel to suck because he was no longer a Braves, or Diaz, or Vasquez, etc.
I’ve no doubt that if he does well, some will come back and erroneously try to change their opinion at this time. I won’t be one of them, though.
-C
It’s rough to sit through these games and not have someone that can’t hit a Ball?
Absolutely correct (RE: people coming back to change their opinion).
"Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that." George Carlin
by DolphinNation on Oct 31, 2011 5:03 PM EDT up reply actions
I think the problem here is expectations. Lowe never lived up to his contract, but when you look at FA contracts, especially big name multi year deals, almost never produce positive value. I assumed Lowe would produce on average 3 WAR over his 4 years. He didn’t meet that as has averaged like 2.6-2.7 WAR for his first three years, which wasn’t in line with how much we paid him, but everyone knew we overpaid when the deal was made. In no way do I blame Lowe for that, I blame Wren for overpaying a guy who has always been a good 3 and an average 3 (outside of a few select years).
His 2011 was almost identical to his previous seasons with the Braves, you just noticed it more, because the rest of our pitching was generally outstanding.
Even if Lowe pitches great this year, I won’t be complaining about the trade, it was the right move. It just hard to watch everyone bash a guy who clearly is getting a rough break from the fans.
"No. Lonely people mixing with one another? Breeding? Creating an even lonelier generation? You're not even allowing natural selection do its work. Pssh. You're like the guy who invented the seat belt."
Dwight Schrute
i think
calling him a 3 is being nice the way he pitched lol
by drumzalicious on Oct 31, 2011 10:16 PM EDT up reply actions
But the problem is – he wasn’t signed to be a #3 starter, nor was he considering himself a #3 starter, based on his contract demands.
Yes, Wren is at fault for actually giving him what he wanted, but to deny Lowe any responsibility for his lack of living up to expectations/paycheck is disingenuous as well.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Oct 31, 2011 10:22 PM EDT up reply actions
I’ve already told you that I dont care what he demands for a contract. So Stop It.
"No. Lonely people mixing with one another? Breeding? Creating an even lonelier generation? You're not even allowing natural selection do its work. Pssh. You're like the guy who invented the seat belt."
Dwight Schrute
As the Rock says, it really doesn’t matter what you think.
The bottom line is that Lowe marketed himself as a front-line starter, and we bought into it.
I’ve already said that Wren deserves blame for signing him, but Lowe deserves blame for not living up to what he claimed himself to be – regardless of whether or not we should have seen it coming.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Oct 31, 2011 10:26 PM EDT up reply actions
Whom Lowe hired to represent him…
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Oct 31, 2011 10:44 PM EDT up reply actions
I’m just saying its actually the agent that does all the advertising and such. I know you’ve heard about the binders that Boras makes for all of his clients
by drumzalicious on Oct 31, 2011 10:46 PM EDT up reply actions
I know
but still, it’s Lowe’s responsibility. He hired Boras to market him as a #1 and get as much money/years as possible.
To excuse Lowe from not living up to the contract is in poor taste.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Oct 31, 2011 10:48 PM EDT up reply actions
not excusing him. I just dont think that he did very much advertising.
I do cringe at the thought of him imparting wisdom into our young pitchers. Its like “Hey kids dont do this” then he goes and gives up 6ER
by drumzalicious on Oct 31, 2011 10:49 PM EDT up reply actions
"All of a sudden"
If you looked back over my 2011 posts on here, you’d pretty much see a consistent view on Lowe—frustrated with his performance, but hopeful that the regression was coming. His peripherals are still generally fine.
That hasn’t changed. I recognize that Wren wanted to clear some payroll and Lowe was the obvious candidate given all of the starting rotation options, but I also feel a little disappointed that we won’t reap the benefit of that likely regression. Maybe this is how some White Sox fans felt when they traded Javy Vasquez to us.
If Albert played in the AFL, they’d have to rename it the AZ/NM Fall League, based on where his homers landed.
But he’ll still sweat like a son of a b*tch…
"Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that." George Carlin
by DolphinNation on Oct 31, 2011 3:35 PM EDT up reply actions
thats going to suck for him. Sinker ballers do better in hot humid weather . . .
by drumzalicious on Oct 31, 2011 10:16 PM EDT up reply actions
He’d have to go something like 19-6 with a 2.25 ERA and 1.15 WHIP for us to regret it.
If we can land [Stephen Drew], I will give FW a bj.
~justincredubil02
by king of games on Oct 31, 2011 3:57 PM EDT up reply actions
Even so...
I’d argue that wouldn’t have happened if he’d stayed. No way I regret this deal.
Go USA, Braves, BU Terriers, Irish, Caps, Skins, NU Cats, Wizards, DC United, Washington Freedom
BU Hockey: National Champions 1971, 1972, 1978, 1995, 2009
It's a fair deal for all involved.
Obviously you wish that we could have got away with only sending the Indians $8 MM or so, IMO it would’ve still been a good deal for them.
We may have moved fast on this one to free up money ASAP rather than shopping for the best deal. If that’s the case then I’d expect any move of JJ or Prado to happen quickly as well.
Q: If not us, who? If not now, when? A: The Batman. And "when you least expect it."
i was hoping FW would fleece someone and we would only pay 6-7 mil but alas it wasn’t so
by drumzalicious on Oct 31, 2011 10:17 PM EDT up reply actions
So who is the big acquisition now
Do we go after Rollins at SS or do we go after a LF such as Beltran/Cuddyer etc. ?
I prefer Rollins
That idea is “silly and impossible,” according to one viewer…
Oh wait.
"Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that." George Carlin
by DolphinNation on Oct 31, 2011 4:14 PM EDT up reply actions
Don't care
if we’re still trying to cut some costs, he is the only starter that makes sense. And probably the only player*. With him, and assuming Beachy has the 4 spot locked up after last year, that least just 1 spot for Delgado, Minor, and Teheran. Now, there can be a benefit of having only 1 to start the season, delaying the service clock of the other 2, but again, if we’re looking to cut salary, that’s probably another $5+m in savings from JJ’s arb 2 salary and a Minor/Delgado/Teheran making the minimum.
*Prado might be the other, but he wouldn’t bring back much savings if any, since there is no ready made cheap replacement within the system (unless we go ultra aggressive with Terdoslavich), so you’d probably spend more replacing him than you’d save moving him. Leaving JJ as the last remaining piece to cut costs with.
http://sportsandgrits.com/
Might want to hold onto JJ and maximize our trade value with him at next year’s deadline…
"Reach down in there...TURN THAT DAMN THING UP!" - Coach Paul Johnson
That's assuming his 2012 is healthy and strong
something only a crystal ball knows right now.
http://sportsandgrits.com/
Well, that’s just it. Without Lowe, you’ve got Huddy, Hanson, JJ, Beach, Minor, Teheran and Delgados. I don’t really think you move anybody now: having 7 ML-ready starters is probably the right number in case of injury.
"Forget Roy Halladay or Clayton Kershaw or Cliff Lee, the NL Cy Young Award should go to O’Ventrel." - David Schoenfield, ESPN.com, 8/19/11
You'd have Medlen as an option
or Martinez, Hoover, perhaps Redmond or Gilmartin among others. Would it not be more cost effective to sign a Rodrigo Lopez again as that 7th/8th emergency starter?
I’m not saying we move JJ just to move him. But if a package centered around him can bring back an Andrus, or Stephen Drew + prospects, or another real fix at SS, you do it imo. We aren’t gonna move the now cheap Hanson since he missed super 2. Can’t move Hudson even if we wanted due to 10/5 status. And like Hanson, one of the kids doesn’t bring about any savings unless you can bring back a likely untouchable such as Starlin Castro as a minimum salary, quality SS. So JJ is the next ? aside from what I’d assume are minor, relatively cheap (as in under $5m) free agent vets.
http://sportsandgrits.com/
I’d trade JJ to the Royals for Wil Myers+ and call it a day! Myers is a beast and he’ll be our solution in LF in a year or so. That would the free up 4-5+ mil or so and we could the go after Rollins on a 2 or 3 year deal until Simmons is ready.
The JJ for Myers idea is growing on me......
But I don’t think the Braves will go after Rollins, he has said he’s looking for 4 to 5 years. I wouldn’t mind him at SS, but his contract wants are just to long.
Faux Frank Wren
If you are an Indian fan, obtaining Derek Lowe is the equivalent of getting a toothbrush in your trick or treat bag. #happyhalloween
http://twitter.com/#!/fauxfrankwren
Question?
With us now having a little spending cash and possibly more on the way….. Would you guys as Braves dans consider over paying for one year of Carlos Beltran?
Is Beltran not looking for a longer deal?
I would think he seeks multiple years.
http://sportsandgrits.com/
I would think he would be, but......
Thinking ahead a possible JJ or Prado trade could open up around another 5 mil. Would he except a 1 year deal at 12+ mil?…….. Just looking for an upgrade in LF that would be willing tosign a 1 year deal, so we keep out options open for 2012 free agency.
Can't imagine this happening
Red Sox can easily outbid the Braves for Beltran and I’m not convinced that would be the wisest way to spend the money for the Braves
by LEastCoastBears on Oct 31, 2011 4:46 PM EDT up reply actions
However, on Fangraph's chat today
1:15
Comment From Atari
Where will Carlos Beltran end up next year? It seems like from his trade demands over the summer he would probably only consider National League teams. Who is gonna pay him?
1:16
Dan Szymborski:
I’m going to go out on a limb and say Atlanta
by LEastCoastBears on Oct 31, 2011 4:50 PM EDT up reply actions
A few issues...
1. Scott Boras
2. He’s probably the best outfield FA out there. I just checked his numbers. He pretty well earned his last contract.
3. Just finished a $19.3 million year. And a 7/$119m contract
4. Scott Boras
5. Will be 35 in April.
6. A one-year deal is gonna be more expensive (per year) than a multi-year.
7. Scott Boras.
All that said, it could be plausible for ~$16m, but that’s not really Atlanta’s style to do that.
"Forget Roy Halladay or Clayton Kershaw or Cliff Lee, the NL Cy Young Award should go to O’Ventrel." - David Schoenfield, ESPN.com, 8/19/11
Beltran ain't gettin $16 mill
No way, no how.
Lol, just look at the Kid’s avg, Slick. - Chief Noc-A-Homa
Follow me on Twitter: @hashtagbaseball
It's tough...
I think it’ll be a little lower than that mark, but who knows how desperate teams will get. Someone misses out on one of their targets and has a boatload of money to spend, etc.
If I had to guess, you’re probably looking at 2 years, $25-30MM with an option of some sort.
-C
It’s rough to sit through these games and not have someone that can’t hit a Ball?
Clarification
Option for a third year. Probably vesting on PA, but could be a team or mutual option.
-C
It’s rough to sit through these games and not have someone that can’t hit a Ball?
Ω
As much as I wanted to go (the ecstatic variation of) apeshit over this, I wish him well. Just glad he’s gone because he wasn’t turning it around and was blocking our top prospects.
Yeah, well, you know, that's just, like, uh, your opinion, man. -The Dude
With this deal done
I doubt we see J.J. traded this offseason. Hudson and Beachy are the only two guys from our starting 5 that finished the season healthy. If we trade J.J. that leaves us with just Hanson as the only other non-rookie in the rotation and he is recovering from a shoulder injury. Those are the most unpredictable injuries just look at Brandon Webb. I think the earliest we see a J.J. trade is the 2012 deadline if he is having a stellar season and Teheran/Delgado/whoever doesn’t make the rotation in ST is tearing it up in AAA.
If we trade anyone else me thinks it will be Prado. There would be no point in keeping him as a utility infielder if the team went out and got an OF bat. There are quite a few guys out there who are capable of playing every position in the infield like Betancourt, Brandon Wood, Cedeno, etc. While they aren’t as good offensively as Prado they would cost 1-2mil while Prado could cost 5mil.
I'm thinking something like this:
Prado trade.
LF: One of Willingham, Quentin, Cuddyer. Beltran is still a reach, but boy, he has (except 2010, 2005) pretty well maintained a .900 OPS). Wow. Cuddyer is an .800 guy, but hard to argue against. Willingham (more OPS power, less avg.).
Shortstop…. one of Gonzalez, Barmes, or Carroll. Rollins is not the same guy he was 4 years ago, so that’s a bad contract waiting to happen. Reyes? No way.
Do that, re-sign Jack Wilson to back up the left side of the infield, and let’s head for Disney.
"Forget Roy Halladay or Clayton Kershaw or Cliff Lee, the NL Cy Young Award should go to O’Ventrel." - David Schoenfield, ESPN.com, 8/19/11
just because the guy has played those position
doesn’t mean that he is still capable of doing so. In fact, Cuddyer didn’t appear at 3B at all last year and only for 14 games the year before. He did play 10+ games at 2B last year, however.
by LEastCoastBears on Oct 31, 2011 7:59 PM EDT up reply actions
Okay, there’s “ideal” situations and there’s “fill-in” situations. Clearly, if we signed up Cuddyer, the purpose would be to play a corner outfield spot. He would probably be a third choice to for third base behind… somebody else.
That said, positional flexibility is very helpful, and will undoubtedly be a consideration in deciding whether to go after him.
"Forget Roy Halladay or Clayton Kershaw or Cliff Lee, the NL Cy Young Award should go to O’Ventrel." - David Schoenfield, ESPN.com, 8/19/11
Well, that’s step 2 complete.
Now for SS…
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Oct 31, 2011 4:50 PM EDT reply actions
I gotcha.
If we can land [Stephen Drew], I will give FW a bj.
~justincredubil02
by king of games on Oct 31, 2011 5:26 PM EDT up reply actions
to anyone who thinks it was a mistake signing lowe...
it kinda was but we were desperate for pitching and it was down to lowe, burnett, and oliver perez. so yeah it wasn’t the greatest move but it was the greater of the 3 evils.
He’s not the best color man in the league for nothing, folks!
"Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that." George Carlin
by DolphinNation on Oct 31, 2011 5:01 PM EDT up reply actions
Don’t worry…nobody’s listenin’ anyway.
"Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that." George Carlin
by DolphinNation on Oct 31, 2011 5:03 PM EDT up reply actions
Side note – when I was in college, eons ago, I recited this movie from start to finish, and won myself a cool 20 bucks from 10 different people. 200 bucks + 2 dollar drafts at my favorite college watering hole = me fat, drunk and happy.
"Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that." George Carlin
by DolphinNation on Oct 31, 2011 5:05 PM EDT up reply actions
i thought the trajectory, it looked too high
"No. Lonely people mixing with one another? Breeding? Creating an even lonelier generation? You're not even allowing natural selection do its work. Pssh. You're like the guy who invented the seat belt."
Dwight Schrute
Well played by everyone!
Twitter: @scottcoleman55
by Scott Coleman on Nov 1, 2011 2:05 AM EDT up reply actions
awesome icon btw
was gonna go as Heisenberg for halloween but got rained out
I thought hurricane season was over........
by bravesguy311 on Nov 1, 2011 10:34 AM EDT up reply actions
oh my god!
we have 15 million to spend now!!!!!!!!!!!!
helloooooooo mediocre stopgaps!
only 5 million
we’re eating 10MM of his contract
Do tell – where is this mysterious 10 million you speak of?
"Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that." George Carlin
by DolphinNation on Oct 31, 2011 5:10 PM EDT up reply actions
See my posts (way) above. I have a spreadsheet estimate that Alanta is now approx. $11.6m under last year’s payroll – before making a decision on Moylan (which could add another $2m to that number).
This is after all current contract obligations, and estimated arbitration raises.
With that, we gotta still buy a shortstop and fill a couple of bullpen slots. It’s not $15m, but it’s a reasonable figure to work with, for sure.
I may try and post the data within the next week or so – my image hosting site appears to have croaked for good.
"Forget Roy Halladay or Clayton Kershaw or Cliff Lee, the NL Cy Young Award should go to O’Ventrel." - David Schoenfield, ESPN.com, 8/19/11
Did that include
Hinske’s option?
(yes, I’m being lazy again.)
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Oct 31, 2011 5:23 PM EDT up reply actions
by all accounts
it’s 10 million now after this extra 5 million from the Lowe trade today
by LEastCoastBears on Oct 31, 2011 6:50 PM EDT up reply actions
every fifth game of the season...
…I won’t have to avoid watching the Braves game now!
Just have to wonder
if we could have dumped him last offseason for $10MM.
'There are two pains in life. There is the pain of discipline and the pain of disappointment. If you can handle the pain of discipline, then you'll never have to deal with the pain of disappointment,'- Nick Saban
Doubt it. I think if we could have it would have been done.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Oct 31, 2011 5:22 PM EDT up reply actions
Hope so.
But there seemed to have been a pretty hard line against eating salary.
'There are two pains in life. There is the pain of discipline and the pain of disappointment. If you can handle the pain of discipline, then you'll never have to deal with the pain of disappointment,'- Nick Saban
I think with the question marks of Beachy and Minor coming into this season, they were more reluctant to move him.
Now that all of our pitching concerns for the next century seem to be answered, it was an easier move to make from our end. Just my speculation.
Then there is the fact that Lowe was probably the best pitcher in baseball for the last month.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Oct 31, 2011 5:27 PM EDT up reply actions
Will never know
and it ain’t all that relevant. Hindsight is hindsight and all.
'There are two pains in life. There is the pain of discipline and the pain of disappointment. If you can handle the pain of discipline, then you'll never have to deal with the pain of disappointment,'- Nick Saban
Yeah – I’m just happy we got what we got.
Think of it this way: we got nothin’ for KK.
"Forget Roy Halladay or Clayton Kershaw or Cliff Lee, the NL Cy Young Award should go to O’Ventrel." - David Schoenfield, ESPN.com, 8/19/11
We got 2 years of AA pitching….wait, we didn’t even get that much…ugh.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Oct 31, 2011 5:38 PM EDT up reply actions
Helped our AA catchers work on fielding wild pitches.
'There are two pains in life. There is the pain of discipline and the pain of disappointment. If you can handle the pain of discipline, then you'll never have to deal with the pain of disappointment,'- Nick Saban
i dont believe that
When it was first reported that we were trying to trade Lowe after his first year Wren was trying to only pay 5-7 mil of the 45 left on his contract. Last year the same kind of thing was coming out how he wasnt wanting to eat more than 5-7 mil. That’s the one thing I kept getting mad about was that he was trying to trade a bad contract and not pay anything on it. If he had just eaten 15 mil that first offseason we could have kept Javy and had a lot more breathing room financially.
by drumzalicious on Oct 31, 2011 9:12 PM EDT up reply actions
we would have done it if it was possible
with 2 year left on the contract, Braves probably would have ate $20 million and I can’t fault Wren for not doing so
by LEastCoastBears on Oct 31, 2011 5:24 PM EDT up reply actions
Hell, we ate it anyway
and got crappy performance to boot.
'There are two pains in life. There is the pain of discipline and the pain of disappointment. If you can handle the pain of discipline, then you'll never have to deal with the pain of disappointment,'- Nick Saban
I think we were all hoping that “Sept 2010 Lowe” would appear.
"Forget Roy Halladay or Clayton Kershaw or Cliff Lee, the NL Cy Young Award should go to O’Ventrel." - David Schoenfield, ESPN.com, 8/19/11
Exactly.
And I have to wonder if Boston or somebody would have grabbed him at 2/20 and no prospects following said September.
'There are two pains in life. There is the pain of discipline and the pain of disappointment. If you can handle the pain of discipline, then you'll never have to deal with the pain of disappointment,'- Nick Saban
I'm thrilled they are taking 5 mil of his salary
"The way y'all are lollygaggin around here with them picks and them shovels, you'd think it was 120 degrees...can't be more than 114."
by SouthernPanther on Oct 31, 2011 5:34 PM EDT reply actions
And we got a living, breathing body in return to boot!
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Oct 31, 2011 5:38 PM EDT up reply actions
I really don't see how this trade affects how we handle Jurrjens and the other pitchers.
Wren said from the start that Lowe would not be considered for the starting rotation. This does nothing other than free up $5MM and a bullpen spot.
We still have Hudson, Hanson, Beachy, Minor, Jurrjens, Teheran, Delgado and Medlen, as well as a few others who could fill in if an emergency appeared. That’s more than enough depth and both Teheran and Delgado are ready now.
I wouldn’t be surprised one bit if Jurrjens or another starter gets moved in the offseason.
Twitter: @scottcoleman55
Did he say that?
Or did he say that Lowe wasn’t guaranteed a rotation spot?
'There are two pains in life. There is the pain of discipline and the pain of disappointment. If you can handle the pain of discipline, then you'll never have to deal with the pain of disappointment,'- Nick Saban
I think it depends on the return
Wren has shown more than willing to have a full compliment plus extra quality starters, because you almost always need more than 5. So if we get a big return for one of our guys, Wren will bite, but he’s not forcing a move unless a player we really want can be brought back.
http://sportsandgrits.com/
I don’t necessarily think a starter will be traded, just that they won’t be off limits if the market is so hungry for starting pitching.
Twitter: @scottcoleman55
by Scott Coleman on Oct 31, 2011 9:31 PM EDT up reply actions
Hudson and Beachy are the only guys who finished the year healthy. We don’t know whats going to happen with Hansons shoulder so he is still somewhat of a question mark. I’d rather not have 2 rookies starting the season with the team. I think Minor is ready but Teheran and Delgado could use more time in AAA.
by drumzalicious on Oct 31, 2011 9:14 PM EDT up reply actions
You aren’t starting the season with two rookies.
Hudson
Hanson
Beachy
Minor
Teheran
Delgado is good enough, right now, to be in the starting rotation for about 90% of the teams in the league. And if for some reason we get killed by injuries again, we still have Medlen and the prospects to make a deal for a starter should we need to. Depth isn’t a concern here.
I’m not saying we give away Jurrjens (or any other pitcher), but the loss of Lowe doesn’t foreshadow the team refusing to deal any of them away, as some suggested above.
Twitter: @scottcoleman55
by Scott Coleman on Oct 31, 2011 9:31 PM EDT up reply actions
Minor and Teheran would be considered rookies because they havent been in the bigs for more than “x” days. I forgot what the cutoff is.
by drumzalicious on Oct 31, 2011 10:14 PM EDT up reply actions
Minor is well over the days and innings limit.
-C
It’s rough to sit through these games and not have someone that can’t hit a Ball?
by cthabeerman on Oct 31, 2011 10:25 PM EDT up reply actions
45 non September days on the roster or if he exceeds 130 AB or 50 IP in the Majors
"No. Lonely people mixing with one another? Breeding? Creating an even lonelier generation? You're not even allowing natural selection do its work. Pssh. You're like the guy who invented the seat belt."
Dwight Schrute
for some reason
I thought the IP limit was higher. Still not to keen on starting the season with Minor AND Teheran. I’d start with Minor then if Teheran is doing good in AAA and JJ is having a good year I would flip J.J.
by drumzalicious on Oct 31, 2011 10:43 PM EDT up reply actions
I thought the AB limit was higher, for what its worth.
"No. Lonely people mixing with one another? Breeding? Creating an even lonelier generation? You're not even allowing natural selection do its work. Pssh. You're like the guy who invented the seat belt."
Dwight Schrute
seems kinda low
so I’m guessing Minor won’t be eligible for ROY next season . . . sad.
by drumzalicious on Oct 31, 2011 10:47 PM EDT up reply actions
Nice to know you D-Lowe.
Braves, (NHL and NFL) Jets, Bruins, Celtics, and Whitecaps FC fan! Just one of God's mystical creatures, a big sports fan.
Twitter: @jrodisjust2cool
by jrodisjust2cool on Oct 31, 2011 5:47 PM EDT reply actions
One question kind of OT
Why does no one mention Redmond when talking about trades? He’s been pretty solid the last two years in AAA.
Lead off walks usually lead to runs, unless they don't. -Joe Simpson
If you don't like the way the Atlanta Braves are playing, then you don't like baseball. -Chuck Tanner
Teams better wake up.
You beat Atlanta, you win a title. Cards-Champions. Giants-Champions. Packers-Champions.
I would say only 1 of those teams were better than their ATL opponent, that being the Pack. We’ve gotta get somebody at the helm who can get the most from their players AND effectively manage a lineup/bullpen.
Back to the post-D.Lowe cost us 17 games this year. 17. If he’s removed from the rotation for September, a different team is world champs. Also, he’s one of the sole reasons of the breakdown of the bullpen with his typical 5 inning a game avg.
Loving the move by Wren, but I think he’s got much more up his sleeve. With both JJ and Hanson having break downs for the stretch both this year and last, I believe he’ll make a move to get a guy to solidify the top of the rotation. Huddy is just about the only guy we can really count on, and there is no way the Bravos pay both JJ and Hanson, so might as well get something of value for one.
Frank Wren Is A Genius
He paid a team $10 million to take a guy he paid too much money to. Worship at Wren’s feet. He always has so much up his sleeve. In Wren We Trust. He cannot fail, except when he does, but that never actually happened.
by Thrashy Thrashy on Oct 31, 2011 6:37 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Layin it on thick
It’s a good save-face move, but those praising Wren for this are…well…misguided.
That’s like someone purposely setting their house on fire and then being praised for paying someone else to put most of it out for them.
Freeman isn’t on Heyward’s level in terms of tools, skills, or baseball IQ–but it’s fair to say Freeman has failed to meet the modest expectations in place for him - Capitol Avenue Club (May 28th, 2011)
It is what it is...
The Braves paid Lowe $55MM and got $34MM in production.
-C
It’s rough to sit through these games and not have someone that can’t hit a Ball?
it looks really bad when you put it that way, can we at least admit had he finished 2012 with the Brvaes it woul dhave been like 60M and 44M in production
P.S. why do you put two “Ms” for Million?
"No. Lonely people mixing with one another? Breeding? Creating an even lonelier generation? You're not even allowing natural selection do its work. Pssh. You're like the guy who invented the seat belt."
Dwight Schrute
“many millions”
“Multi millions”
“More millions”
“Mickey Millions”
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Oct 31, 2011 10:24 PM EDT up reply actions
I’m gonna blow you up next time we play zombies.
"No. Lonely people mixing with one another? Breeding? Creating an even lonelier generation? You're not even allowing natural selection do its work. Pssh. You're like the guy who invented the seat belt."
Dwight Schrute
I’ve got an idea – how ’bout you stop dying on every round past 20?
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Oct 31, 2011 10:27 PM EDT up reply actions
M is 1,000. MM is 1,000,000, or 1,000 1,000s.
-C
It’s rough to sit through these games and not have someone that can’t hit a Ball?
by cthabeerman on Oct 31, 2011 10:27 PM EDT up reply actions
This is ‘Merica. If you don’t like it, you can git out!
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Oct 31, 2011 10:27 PM EDT up reply actions
We figure about the same. The Braves tossed away value by trading him, for sure.
His value to the Braves is less than his value to x team, though, so it makes sense to do so.
-C
It’s rough to sit through these games and not have someone that can’t hit a Ball?
by cthabeerman on Oct 31, 2011 10:29 PM EDT up reply actions
although
If this Jones fellow turns out to be a dynamite reliever the value might get at least even. Gotta dream big lol
by drumzalicious on Oct 31, 2011 10:44 PM EDT up reply actions
Trick or Treat
So I’m guessing when Wren knocked on the Indians door and asked trick or treat? The Indians responded with Trick, bc no one in their right mind should trade for Lowe even if the his former team is paying 2/3s his salary
by tombowski02 on Oct 31, 2011 8:44 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
for a team with some $ to spend on pitching
$5 Million for a reclamation project is not a bad gamble, it’s a win-win for both club in this trade
by LEastCoastBears on Oct 31, 2011 8:52 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah, it’s not like Lowe put up more WAR than every Indian pitcher not named Masterson last season…and beat every other Cleveland pitcher by at least 1 WAR, save Tomlin.
-C
It’s rough to sit through these games and not have someone that can’t hit a Ball?
I’m seriously gonna start crying if people don’t stop acting like Wren is a genius for this trade, he certainly isn’t an idiot for the trade, but convincing a team to take a proven pitcher who doesn’t miss starts and throws close to 200 innings and has a ERA in the 4s with solid peripherals, isn’t a jedi mind trick. The Uggla trade was a jedi mind trick, convincing a team to trade you their second best hitter for a utility IF and a LOOGY, jedi like.
"No. Lonely people mixing with one another? Breeding? Creating an even lonelier generation? You're not even allowing natural selection do its work. Pssh. You're like the guy who invented the seat belt."
Dwight Schrute
Derek Lowe produced 10M worth of value last year, even if he regresses dramatically he is a good bet to produce 7M in value. There is no conceivable way this is a bad trade for the Indians. So stop acting like it is.
"No. Lonely people mixing with one another? Breeding? Creating an even lonelier generation? You're not even allowing natural selection do its work. Pssh. You're like the guy who invented the seat belt."
Dwight Schrute
We are missing the biggest news of all
Lowe being traded isn’t the top story today.
Kim Kardashian is getting divorced. Who could have seen that coming???
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Oct 31, 2011 10:28 PM EDT reply actions
i read a joke
that her sextape lasted longer than her marriage.
by drumzalicious on Oct 31, 2011 10:45 PM EDT up reply actions
Ray-Jay abused that behind.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Oct 31, 2011 10:46 PM EDT up reply actions
LOL
man. its crazy that this chick is famous off of having sex on camera with a celebrity that everyone actually knew.
by drumzalicious on Oct 31, 2011 10:48 PM EDT up reply actions
I still have no idea who Ray-Jay is.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Oct 31, 2011 10:50 PM EDT up reply actions
He's MAGIC.
'There are two pains in life. There is the pain of discipline and the pain of disappointment. If you can handle the pain of discipline, then you'll never have to deal with the pain of disappointment,'- Nick Saban
Well, a whole lot of people did.
She filmed it.
'There are two pains in life. There is the pain of discipline and the pain of disappointment. If you can handle the pain of discipline, then you'll never have to deal with the pain of disappointment,'- Nick Saban
The free agency just became a better business decision than the trade market. Good work FW
Sgt.: Pointed stick? Oh, oh, oh. We want to learn how to defend ourselves against pointed sticks, do we? Getting all high and mighty, eh? Fresh fruit not good enough for you eh? Well I'll tell you something my lad. When you're walking home tonight and some great homicidal maniac comes after you with a bunch of loganberries, don't come crying to me! Now, the passion fruit.
People should also consider the backdrop of this off-season. An epic meltdown for a franchise struggling with attendance could potentially be a death knell. As unfair as it might be (I don’t think so, but I see how focusing on the inadequacies of individual players when the entire team screwed the proverbial pooch can be considered unfair) fan favored moves are a priority. But FW is not that one dimensional. I believe that this is a precursor to another move that will have the same appeal as the removal of Derek Lowe. Even if you don’t believe that whatever net benefit is achieved you absolutely have to appreciate that FW is taking the recent collapse very personally and sees the benefits of big changes. I applaud him both for his business savvy and his awareness of less solvent problems. Once again, big kudos Frankie.
Sgt.: Pointed stick? Oh, oh, oh. We want to learn how to defend ourselves against pointed sticks, do we? Getting all high and mighty, eh? Fresh fruit not good enough for you eh? Well I'll tell you something my lad. When you're walking home tonight and some great homicidal maniac comes after you with a bunch of loganberries, don't come crying to me! Now, the passion fruit.
if this is true
we should see a trade of Prado and Heyward along with signing a new closer.
by drumzalicious on Nov 1, 2011 1:28 AM EDT up reply actions
Eh, not really, and even if you take that POV, only if you take a very extreme approach to my above statement, which was predicated by a praise of the business sense that this decision made. It is very easy for the Braves to almost effortlessly replace Lowe, but Heyward and Prado present a different set of problems, and FW is savvy enough to realize that solving these problems because of a year of not producing (versus getting rid of a really painful contract which definitely doesn’t apply to Prado and Heyward) is far less certain than plugging in Delgado or Teheran in place of Lowe. But in the process has acquired $5 million dollars, which, combined with our current salary surplus can net either a very good player or several very specific players. Either way, the net win is good and will still be next year (which can be assumed as probable since guarantees are impossible for future production) while the same can’t be said for Prado and Heyward. And believe me, FW knows this as well as I.
Sgt.: Pointed stick? Oh, oh, oh. We want to learn how to defend ourselves against pointed sticks, do we? Getting all high and mighty, eh? Fresh fruit not good enough for you eh? Well I'll tell you something my lad. When you're walking home tonight and some great homicidal maniac comes after you with a bunch of loganberries, don't come crying to me! Now, the passion fruit.
Another perspective, would you rather have JJ next year or Lowe? While it was not directly that decision, in a lot of ways (beyond money, though that is important) that is how the end game of this discussion plays out. There is certainly no high-upside alternative to Prado and Heyward within the system, and this Lowe move makes the possibility of an superior outside replacement possible for any number of positions. This Lowe move is the equivalent of trading a pawn (one who has made many moves to reach this point of maximum value to the player) for a knight (even if that value is only represented monetarily or in the difference between Teheran and Lowe- developing upside and production) while the sacrifice of Heyward or Prado is unlikely to yield positive value.
Sgt.: Pointed stick? Oh, oh, oh. We want to learn how to defend ourselves against pointed sticks, do we? Getting all high and mighty, eh? Fresh fruit not good enough for you eh? Well I'll tell you something my lad. When you're walking home tonight and some great homicidal maniac comes after you with a bunch of loganberries, don't come crying to me! Now, the passion fruit.
I’d actually rather have Lowe plus the good player we’d have gotten for J.J. than to have J.J. and no good player but 5mil extra. . . .
I have dreams that we got Alex Gordon in a trade for J.J.
by drumzalicious on Nov 1, 2011 1:44 AM EDT up reply actions
Sure we could have gotten some good players, but in your scenario either Lowe starts next year, or he rots on the bench for at least half the year (7.5 million wasted minus the introduction fee to the KK club.) JJ can still be converted to prospects, definitely at least a couple of good ones even at a year less, or even a very good player esp. if the team feels they can re-sign him. But in the mean time we get to have him in the rotation for a year longer, while allowing our top tier pitching prospects to get more experience and our FO more time to effectively evaluating them before they make a big decision. What I mean by that is that replacing JJ with a rookie is more risky than replacing Lowe with a rookie in both the short and long term.
Prado and Heyward, and really any player who had any significant time on a team that lost it at the last possible moment, very obviously underachieved, but you simply can’t compare them to Lowe. Lowe’s upside is minimal, and the benefits of not having Lowe greatly outweigh the possible benefits of keeping Lowe.
Sgt.: Pointed stick? Oh, oh, oh. We want to learn how to defend ourselves against pointed sticks, do we? Getting all high and mighty, eh? Fresh fruit not good enough for you eh? Well I'll tell you something my lad. When you're walking home tonight and some great homicidal maniac comes after you with a bunch of loganberries, don't come crying to me! Now, the passion fruit.
replacing JJ with a rookie is less risky* You know, the opposite of what I actually typed…
Sgt.: Pointed stick? Oh, oh, oh. We want to learn how to defend ourselves against pointed sticks, do we? Getting all high and mighty, eh? Fresh fruit not good enough for you eh? Well I'll tell you something my lad. When you're walking home tonight and some great homicidal maniac comes after you with a bunch of loganberries, don't come crying to me! Now, the passion fruit.
Haven’t you heard? Heyward = Francoeur.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Nov 1, 2011 10:29 AM EDT up reply actions
so should we call the mets now or in June?
by drumzalicious on Nov 1, 2011 12:51 PM EDT up reply actions
Hallelujah!
This news is the best I’ve had all week.
"Jason Heyward was a Greek philosopher reincarnated as a baseball player." - Don Sutton
ZOMGZ
wb.
Most people use statistics the way a drunk would use a lamppost—for support, and not for illumination.
www.duwanis.com
This is certainly a good move for a variety of reasons, but it just leaves me once again puzzling at the enigma that is Frank Wren. He refused to eat enough of Kawakami’s salary to trade him but now he willingly eats 2/3 of Lowe’s bad contract just to move him. I guess as I think about it, it is typical Wren. He doesn’t seem to be very consistent in what he does, but at least it frees up some money they really can use better elsewhere.
Oh dear, KK again.
There are plenty of good reasons (almost all of them speculative) that Wren would’ve sat on KK rather than dumping him for a bad deal. There’s a huge difference in getting $5M of salary relief and getting $1-2M of salary relief, and there were a bunch of other factors at play with KK (like the fact that KK was refusing to go to the only place that was offering a fair deal for him, Japan) that could easily have added up to a smart decision to just let him sit in Pearl until his contract ran out.
Most people use statistics the way a drunk would use a lamppost—for support, and not for illumination.
www.duwanis.com
All this...
Plus, if Frank gives up KK for a hill of beans, maybe the Braves don’t even get a $5MM offer on Lowe. If you can just push a guy over, why bother making a trade fair for both sides??
Wren has continually and consistently said that the Braves do not need to trade away pitching. He’s stuck to that across the board – not only with the highly-regarded prospects, but also with a guy like KK. By being firm in that belief, every organization knows what to expect when stepping up to the negotiation table, and the Braves will be better off for it long-term.
-C
It’s rough to sit through these games and not have someone that can’t hit a Ball?
Has there been anything confirming he could even get $1m in relief off KK?
I recall seeing things saying if someone would take him for all but $1-2m of his deal, we’d have done it. The only teams mentioned as willing to cover that much were Japanese, which he was reported as refusing, as was his right in his contract. So unless someone knows of somewhere that offered more than the MLB minimum for KK, I’m hesitant to believe the Pirates, Orioles, or any other reported suitor offered us to cover any more than that. Otherwise, Wren wanted more than $500k covered, couldn’t get it, and held him in AA waiting on an offer that never came, end of story.
http://sportsandgrits.com/
I'm late to the party, but wanted to drop in to say Hi.
Glad Lowe will be wearing a different uni next year.
Hate it cost us so much $$ to have and then rid ourselves of him.
But very glad he won’t be in the NL East to bug us all year.
~ "Curve: The loveliest distance between two points." ~ Mae West ~
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