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2011 Atlanta Braves Player Review: Jason Heyward

This season, no position player attracted more criticism from Braves fans (or beat writers) than Jason Heyward. That's strange to me, because if you actually look at his season objectively, he was far from the worst Braves player. He struggled with the bat for much of the year, no question, but so did nearly every other Brave.

Let's look at how Heyward ranked among the 11 Braves hitters with 200+ PA this season:

  • wOBA: 5th (1st among OFs)
  • OBP: 6th (2nd to Bourn among OFs)
  • SLG: 6th (2nd to Hinske among OFs)
  • Walk Rate (BB/PA): 2nd (2nd to McLouth among OFs)
  • Isolated Power (ISO): 6th (2nd to Hinske among OFs)

And so on like that. Heyward doesn't rank below the middle of the Braves' pack in anything except batting average, which is close to meaningless on its own. He was clearly the Braves' best all-around outfielder. Granted, that says more about the overall quality of the Braves' hitters, especially the other outfielders, than it does about Heyward, but it's still important.

Despite all the criticism, Jason Heyward did not have a bad season in 2011. He didn't have a good season, either, much less the great season that many were expecting. But "disappointing" is not a synonym for "crappy."

The question that Heyward and the Braves should be trying to answer this offseason is this: What changes made his 2011 so disappointing? After the jump, I compare Heyward's 2010 to his 2011 to try to answer this question.

Star-divide

In trying to identify the reasons for Heyward's drop from a roughly 5-WAR player to a roughly 2-WAR player, I looked for differences that might help explain the gap. First off, though, let's point out a few things that I don't think played much of a factor:

  • Power Decline: Heyward's ISO went down a bit, from .172 to .161, but that is a normal fluctuation. His home run rate (HR/AB) actually went up slightly in 2011, as did his POW (extra bases / hits). His power levels weren't great for a RF, but they weren't any worse than in 2010.
  • Too Many Strikeouts: Actually, Heyward's K rate (K/PA) was nearly identical in each of his two seasons. It was 20.5% in 2010 and 20.4% in 2011. That rate is a bit high, but not excessive (MLB average: 18.6%).
  • Too Many Ground Balls: Well, Heyward's GB% and GB/FB are high, but both marks declined slightly in 2011, so that's clearly not it.
  • Defense: I honestly don't understand how anyone who watches the Braves could think Heyward is a poor defender, but I've heard that criticism often. First off, he looks like a good fielder, to me anyway. I don't pay attention to little mistakes here and there; I watch for range and route-taking, and Heyward does well in those categories, in my opinion. Objectively speaking, 2 years' worth of fielding data isn't enough to make a firm judgment, but there's no data to suggest that he's anything but above-average. Every major fielding metric has given him good marks in his career. He may not seem all that speedy, but think about it. He has those freakishly long legs, he moves well, and he's young; of course he covers a lot of ground.

Okay, so what did change, perhaps contributing to the decline? Broadly speaking, four factors:

  • Less Playing Time
  • Lower Walk Rate
  • Increase In Swing Rate
  • Huge Drop In Batting Average on Balls In Play (BABIP)

Let's address each of these items in turn.

Less Playing Time

Heyward got 27% fewer plate appearances in 2011 compared to 2010, so that's a fairly big chunk of potential value (around 5 or 6 runs) that the Braves missed out on, even given his lesser performance this season. This was due to 2 problems: his shoulder injury and all the games he spent on the bench so that Fredi Gonzalez could get Jose Constanza or Matt Diaz more playing time (pardon me while I stick another pin in my Fredi voodoo doll).

From the start of the season through the end of July, Heyward missed 25 games due to injury. All but 2 were due to the right shoulder issue. That's probably 90 PAs lost due to the shoulder.

In the last 2 months, Heyward didn't miss any time with injuries, but he only started 32 of the Braves' 53 games. Assuming he would have started around 50 games under normal conditions (with a few days off), he should have gotten around 200 PA in that time. Instead he got 113. So that's another ~90 PAs lost due to managerial decisions.

It's fair to say that about half the loss in playing time was directly attributable to injuries and the other half to Fredi's lineup choices.

Lower Walk Rate

In 2010, Heyward walked in an absolutely stellar 14.6% of his PAs. This year, that dropped to 11.2%, which is still really damn good (NL average: 8.1%) but also represents a pretty big decline. 

In the same number of PAs he got in 2011 but at his 2010 rates, Heyward would have reached base about 65 times on unintentional walks. Instead, he had just 47. That's 18 more outs and 18 fewer baserunners. His OBP with those extra walks would have been .359, not .319. That's still a ways off from 2010's .393 OBP, but it represents more than half the disparity.

What caused this lower walk rate? Many factors, no doubt, but one of them is that Heyward changed his approach fairly dramatically in 2011, swinging much more often than in 2010.

Increase in Swing Rate

First off, let's look at Heyward's plate discipline graphic for this past season:

Plate-discipline-heyward-2011_medium

Only 10 players saw fewer pitches in the strike zone than Heyward, yet his swing rate was only a bit below average, at 44%. That tells you right away that he was probably swinging too often at bad pitches. Heyward's contact rate of 77% is also below-average.

Looking at the Judgment stats, we see confirmation that he swung too often at balls out of the zone. Only 64% of his swings were at pitches in the zone, 5% lower the league average. However, Heyward rated very highly in Take Judgment, with 70% of his takes coming on balls out of the zone, which is 5% above average.

Heyward's aggressiveness and passiveness were essentially right at the league averages. In other words, his plate discipline was fine, but because pitchers kept working Heyward outside the strike zone, he still ended up swinging at too many bad pitches.

Now let's compare this graph to the one for his 2010 season:

Plate-discipline-heyward-2010_medium

In 2010, Heyward was also near the bottom of the league in terms of pitches in the strike zone. But notice how he responded: by swinging only 39% of the time, well below average. By comparison, he swung 5% more often this year despite seeing slightly fewer strikes. Since a change of 5% in one of these metrics is pretty huge, that's an alarming development, even if his Swing Rate was still below average this year.

Next, I want you to look at Heyward's Aggressive and Passive rates. Notice that he only swung at pitches out of the zone 23% of the time in 2010, compared to 29% in 2011. On the other hand, he took 43% of pitches in the strike zone in 2010, compared to 38% in 2011. So he was much more aggressive and much less passive in 2011.

Each player is different. There are some players whom you'd rather have swinging at a pitch out of the zone than taking one for a strike (Pablo Sandoval comes to mind). For others, you'd be content with them taking some strikes as long as they don't get themselves out by swinging at bad pitches. Neither aggressiveness nor passiveness is inherently good or bad, in other words (though both in combination is almost certainly bad, and the very best hitters often aren't particularly aggressive or passive).

In 2010, Heyward was very passive but very successful. In 2011, he had average passiveness but struggled. He swung a lot more at pitches in the strike zone, but if that helped him at all, it was more than outweighed by losses from swinging at many more out-of-zone pitches. As long as Heyward is being pitched the way he has been so far in his career, he needs to go back to being very selective. Hopefully new hitting coach Greg Walker can help Heyward get back to his less-aggressive ways.

Huge Drop in BABIP

Finally, we come to batting average, the cause of so much of the criticism of Heyward's season. Heyward's batting average dropped a whopping 50 points in 2011, from .277 to .257. That was driven entirely by a huge 75-point drop in BABIP, from .335 in 2010 to just .260 in 2011. The question is: why did his BABIP drop so precipitously?

BABIP is often used as a sort of proxy for "luck," but that's not really what it is. Luck plays a huge part, yes, but there are other factors in BABIP. If you hit the ball with less authority or in the air more, you'll have a lower BABIP. Heyward did both in 2011.

According to FanGraphs, Heyward's ground-ball rate was pretty much unchanged in 2011 (54%, vs. 55% in 2010). However, his fly-ball rate went up from 27% to 32%. From that, we'd expect a bit more power but also a lower BABIP. But Heyward's added fly balls weren't evenly distributed. Here's a comparison of Heyward's fly balls in each of his two seasons:

  • 2010: 83 fly balls per 306 balls in play; of those, 7 are on the infield
  • 2011: 101 fly balls in 306 balls in play; 22 of them stayed on the infield

So for the same number of balls in play, Heyward hit 18 more fly balls. That'd be fine, except that he also had 15 more infield flies! Since infield fly balls are basically automatic outs, that partially explains Heyward's low BABIP. Remove those 15 extra infield pop-ups and Heyward's BABIP goes up from .260 to .276. 

What caused those extra pop-ups? My guess would be swinging at bad pitches. Hopefully, Heyward and Walker can figure that out before next season.

So we know that Heyward hit more fly balls this year, but that he didn't hit many fewer grounders. That's because his line drive rate dropped precipitously, from 18% to 13%. His LD% was the 3rd-lowest in MLB out of 203 hitters with at least 400 PAs.* Given that about 70% of liners turn into hits (vs. around 23% of other batted balls), those lost liners really cost Heyward in 2011.

Overall, Heyward hit 40 line drives in 2011. At his 2010 rates, he would have hit 54. So he lost about 14 liners over the course of the season. That's about 7 hits lost (plus some extra bases). Add those back in and his BABIP goes up from .260 to .282.

Assuming that Heyward's problems with pop-ups and lost line drives were mostly due to approach rather than luck, that means that non-luck factors accounted for 35 to 40 points of the lost BABIP, or about half of the 75-point difference.

Accounting for the other half of the difference depends on how you view Heyward's "true" BABIP. Was he lucky to post a .335 mark in 2010, or is that close to his true skill level? If you think a .330ish BABIP is right for Heyward, you'd expect him to post a higher BABIP in 2012 even if he doesn't fix his LD and pop-up problems. And if he does fix them, he could return to that .330 level easily, or even surpass it if he gets some good bounces.

However, if you think that Heyward is naturally closer to .300 BABIP territory, then 2010 seems lucky, and 2011's low BABIP seems right in line with his performance, given the low LD rate and high IFFB rate.

Either way, Heyward will not repeat the success of his 2010 season unless he starts getting more hits on balls in play.

* One weird fact is that 5 of the 20 lowest LD rates in MLB were Braves (Prado was 9th, Uggla 13th, McCann 15th, and Chipper 19th). Overall, the Braves had the 3rd-worst LD% in baseball, ahead of only the Giants and the Nats. Either there's a glitch in the batted-ball classification regarding the Braves (very possible) or something was very, very wrong with the team's hitting approach (yeah, that too).

Summary

All in all, it was definitely a disappointing season for Jason Heyward. His hitting numbers were clearly subpar for a RF. However, it seems like most of the problems are attributable to either injury, approach, or bad luck. While Heyward's injuries continue to be a concern, keep in mind that he only had one serious injury in 2011, and it should be healed for the 2012 season.

Heyward's problems at the plate are definitely fixable. With a new hitting coach in the fold and an offseason to work out the kinks, hopefully Heyward's plate discipline and swing mechanics will get back on track. If they do, we'll all forget about his 2011 struggles quickly enough.

Heyward still has just as much potential as ever, and he only turned 22 in August. He's probably still several years away from his peak. One disappointing season shouldn't sour anyone on the future of this uniquely talented player, who will likely still end up being a core part of the Braves for years to come.

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Great writeup, Jacob.

I don’t know that I want to stick around and see what happens in the comments, though. ;)

Most people use statistics the way a drunk would use a lamppost—for support, and not for illumination.
www.duwanis.com

by duwanis on Oct 26, 2011 12:06 PM EDT reply actions  

Thanks.

Haha, yeah, I think they’re going to get ugly quick, as internet comments tend to do.

"Yeah, and I have an enchanted jock strap." -- Karl Karlson
I now twitter as @junkstats and blog about made-up stats and general baseball stuff at JunkStats.

by Jacob Peterson on Oct 26, 2011 1:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

I can't wait

until whatever post we’re going to do on Constanza goes up.

It’s going to go nuts, I’m sure.

Most people use statistics the way a drunk would use a lamppost—for support, and not for illumination.
www.duwanis.com

by duwanis on Oct 26, 2011 1:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

That'll be tomorrow, I believe.

So stay tuned.

"Yeah, and I have an enchanted jock strap." -- Karl Karlson
I now twitter as @junkstats and blog about made-up stats and general baseball stuff at JunkStats.

by Jacob Peterson on Oct 26, 2011 1:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'll post it right now

He played well above his head for 3 weeks and surprised everyone. Then he sucked.

The end.

My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.

by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT

by justincredubil02 on Oct 26, 2011 1:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

Then he sucked

So in other words regressed back to his natural production?

Through all this, I’m still trying to find the true motivation of your angst. I KNOW you’re anti-Fredi. I’m just wondering which of the following you most closely relate to…

1) Pro-Heyward?
2) Anti-Constanza?
3) Anti-Prado?

"Reach down in there...TURN THAT DAMN THING UP!" - Coach Paul Johnson

by TBuzz on Oct 26, 2011 2:14 PM EDT up reply actions  

1. Yes
2. No
3. No

4. Anti-stupidity – Yes.

My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.

by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT

by justincredubil02 on Oct 26, 2011 2:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

Stupid to play a guy with .339 OBP? (amongst the leam leaders)

"Reach down in there...TURN THAT DAMN THING UP!" - Coach Paul Johnson

by TBuzz on Oct 26, 2011 2:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

Stupid to be fooled by 65 PAs with a BABIP of .431, when his entire MiLB career consists of 3,164 PAs and a slash line of .290 .364 .356 .720 with the vast majority being spent at AA or lower.

My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.

by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT

by justincredubil02 on Oct 26, 2011 2:45 PM EDT up reply actions  

Nope

He pretty much hit to his career MiL numbers. And since the OBP was better than either of our corner OFers, it pretty much puts you in a pickle as a manager on which one to play…

"Reach down in there...TURN THAT DAMN THING UP!" - Coach Paul Johnson

by TBuzz on Oct 26, 2011 2:55 PM EDT up reply actions  

Guys don’t hit at MLB what they hit at MiLB…99% of the time, they hit worse due to the better pitching.

So the very fact that he hit his MiLB averages indicates that it was a fluke, as if the .431 BaBIP for his 3 week run isn’t enough of an indication.

I know I’ve broken this down before, but since you still don’t get it, I’ll do it again.

29 July – 15 Aug:
.414 .452 .569 1.021 – 65 PAs, .431 BABIP

16 Aug – 28 Sept:
.176 .208 .176 .384 – 54 PAs, .214 BABIP

If a manager is put in a pickle over who to play based on a clearly outlying 65 PAs, then he doesn’t really qualify as a good manager.

Obviously, Constanza is not as bad as his last 54 PAs, but he clearly isn’t as good as his first 65 either.

You cannot look at his season totals and reach any significant conclusions. He is what he is – a AAAA player who was hot for a few weeks. That’s it. He’ll be the 4th OFer on the team, barring any sort of FA signing.

My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.

by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT

by justincredubil02 on Oct 26, 2011 3:14 PM EDT up reply actions  

Never said the guy was an All Star. He earned himself playing time though…

"Reach down in there...TURN THAT DAMN THING UP!" - Coach Paul Johnson

by TBuzz on Oct 26, 2011 3:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

Nobody is saying he didn’t.

My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.

by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT

by justincredubil02 on Oct 26, 2011 3:37 PM EDT up reply actions  

I don’t even think he will be the 4th outfielder next year. My guess is that trade for a good 4th outfielder who can hit for average and back up all three OF positions.

by FourScore199 on Oct 26, 2011 5:12 PM EDT up reply actions  

and you're pro-everybody

some people (constanza) don’t need to be starting OF

some people (fredi) don’t need to be managers

by Resentment on Oct 26, 2011 2:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

I liked the writeup that you did here, but sorry man I don’t agree about Heyward not having a bad season. It was wayyyyyy more than just “disappointing”, and to say otherwise is strange to me. Me and many others think that Heyward had a terrible season, and even the ones that don’t want to say that, will at least admit that he had a bad season. You are definitely in the minority if you think that Heyward had just a “disappointing” year, but not bad year. He did bad enough during the 2011 season, that if he plays the same way in 2012, then in 2012 off-season, the Braves Front Office will be looking for a new RF to start in 2013. That’s how bad/terrible a season Heyward had. I know he has a ton of talent, but you have to produce at this level, no matter how much potential that you have.

Now, I think there were reasons as to why he wasn’t good this year, I think he will rebound in 2012 and have a great season like his rookie year, and maybe a better season than that. I’m def not a Heyward hater, I like Heyward a lot, but he still has to produce in 2012, just the way it is.

I don’t care if Constanza hit .500 with 30 HRs and 150 RBI in 3 weeks, benching Heyward was a stupid decision.
by justincredubil02 on Oct 24, 2011 9:55 AM EDT

by rockybull on Oct 26, 2011 12:19 PM EDT reply actions  

Second comment

I knew I wouldn’t be disappointed.

Most people use statistics the way a drunk would use a lamppost—for support, and not for illumination.
www.duwanis.com

by duwanis on Oct 26, 2011 12:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yep, the haters come out in droves whenever someone points out the fact that Jason wasn’t that bad in 2011.

by FourScore199 on Oct 26, 2011 12:45 PM EDT up reply actions  

haters??? I think a lot of Heyward(even said it in my comment), I believe he will be the future of this organization, and I think he will rebound in 2012. Absolutely no way am I hater of Heyward. You can think what ya want though.

I don’t care if Constanza hit .500 with 30 HRs and 150 RBI in 3 weeks, benching Heyward was a stupid decision.
by justincredubil02 on Oct 24, 2011 9:55 AM EDT

by rockybull on Oct 26, 2011 1:02 PM EDT up reply actions  

watch the game or eat the stats

you must have actually watched Jason struggle, swing madly at
pitches and get fooled regularly. Stats matter yet it was clear this
fantastically talented OF has a few weak spots which we seem to
agree he will adjust to.
His OBS slipped. What we old guys used to call clutch or pressure
hitting slipped. He is destined for a stellar career and there is nothing
strange about metrics but they do not tell the full story.

I is what I is and I'm sticking to my story

by sealift67 on Oct 26, 2011 7:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

What was wrong with what I said? Only thing that I argued about was that to me he didn’t just have a disappointing year, he had a bad/terrible year. I even think you admitted in a past thread that he had a “bad” year. Not like I am sitting here calling Heyward a piece of crap or anything like that. I even said that I think he will rebound nicely in 2012…

I don’t care if Constanza hit .500 with 30 HRs and 150 RBI in 3 weeks, benching Heyward was a stupid decision.
by justincredubil02 on Oct 24, 2011 9:55 AM EDT

by rockybull on Oct 26, 2011 1:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

Back it up.

Jacob put a lot of very convincing numbers out there about Jason’s season. It’s cool that you disagree with him, but to sit there and tell him his opinion is strange when he’s painstaking documented why Jason’s season was disappointing, not terrible is… well… strange.

Most people use statistics the way a drunk would use a lamppost—for support, and not for illumination.
www.duwanis.com

by duwanis on Oct 26, 2011 1:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

stats back it up that he wasn’t just disappointing. I think terrible year, but if people wanna say bad, then so be it. But, saying disappointing is an understatement. Put it this way man, as I said before, if Heyward is “disappointing” again in 2012, like he was in 2011 stats wise, then 2012 off-season Braves Front Office will be looking for a new RF for the 2013 season. Maybe I have a different look on bad and disappointing. Heyward in 2010 as we all know hit .393 OBP, .456 SLG, .849 OPS. Now disappointing to me would have been: .350 OBP, .420 SLG, .810 OPS. But, he hit .319 OBP, .389 SLG, .708 OPS. I don’t know how you can’t at least say it was a bad year with the bat. The guy dropped 74 points on his OBP, 67 points SLG, and 141 points on OPS.

Maybe he isn’t close to a 400 OBP type of player and he just had a great rookie year, and won’t get there again, I don’t know, but to sit here and say he didn’t have a bad year is just odd to me. I’m not one of the Heyward haters(people can think what they want), I personally think he will rebound and be just fine, for his sake though, he better rebound nicely. No way this organization will have him starting RF in 2013 if he has another “disappointing” season like he just had…

I don’t care if Constanza hit .500 with 30 HRs and 150 RBI in 3 weeks, benching Heyward was a stupid decision.
by justincredubil02 on Oct 24, 2011 9:55 AM EDT

by rockybull on Oct 26, 2011 4:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

a player hitting .350 OBP, .420 SLG, and .810 OPS wouldn’t be awful or nothing, just it would have been a disappointing year for him, considering how well he hit his rookie year. Just want to make myself clear lol.

I don’t care if Constanza hit .500 with 30 HRs and 150 RBI in 3 weeks, benching Heyward was a stupid decision.
by justincredubil02 on Oct 24, 2011 9:55 AM EDT

by rockybull on Oct 26, 2011 4:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

The problem is that statement is objectively false. ‘Disappointing’ means he underperformed expectations. That is true.

‘Bad’ means he was worse than his peers or any available replacements that the Braves had. That just isn’t true. 2.2 WAR on a shortened season is above average, and he well outperformed his salary. Relative to his contract, he was among the best 2 or 3 Braves this year.

by pbrfan on Oct 26, 2011 1:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

Me and many others think that Heyward had a terrible season, and even the ones that don’t want to say that, will at least admit that he had a bad season.

He had a terrible year only by his lofty standards. He finished the season with numbers just slightly below league average.

My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.

by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT

by justincredubil02 on Oct 26, 2011 1:08 PM EDT up reply actions  

I agree

I think that people believed anything less than MVP caliber play was unacceptable.

"Believe only half of what you see and nothing that you hear."
— Edgar Allan Poe

by Poe76 on Oct 26, 2011 1:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think he had a terrible year, if others want to think bad, then fine, but it wasn’t just a “disappointing” year for him, no matter how you want to slice it.

I don’t care if Constanza hit .500 with 30 HRs and 150 RBI in 3 weeks, benching Heyward was a stupid decision.
by justincredubil02 on Oct 24, 2011 9:55 AM EDT

by rockybull on Oct 26, 2011 1:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

I sliced it pretty thoroughly above,

and I don’t see anything “terrible” about his season at all.

"Yeah, and I have an enchanted jock strap." -- Karl Karlson
I now twitter as @junkstats and blog about made-up stats and general baseball stuff at JunkStats.

by Jacob Peterson on Oct 26, 2011 1:22 PM EDT up reply actions  

well if you want to say it wasn’t terrible, then fine. I personally think it was a terrible year, but to say it wasn’t a bad year is foolish…

I don’t care if Constanza hit .500 with 30 HRs and 150 RBI in 3 weeks, benching Heyward was a stupid decision.
by justincredubil02 on Oct 24, 2011 9:55 AM EDT

by rockybull on Oct 26, 2011 3:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

Actually, no matter how you slice it, his numbers weren’t terrible and his D was top tier.

My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.

by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT

by justincredubil02 on Oct 26, 2011 1:37 PM EDT up reply actions  

you said he had a terrible year…

I don’t care if Constanza hit .500 with 30 HRs and 150 RBI in 3 weeks, benching Heyward was a stupid decision.
by justincredubil02 on Oct 24, 2011 9:55 AM EDT

by rockybull on Oct 26, 2011 3:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

…by his standards. His numbers weren’t terrible, but FOR HIM they were.

My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.

by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT

by justincredubil02 on Oct 26, 2011 3:38 PM EDT up reply actions  

If you think Heyward can be a All-Star caliber of player, 2011 was a bad season for a star player. It wasn’t bad for an average player.

by Broccoman on Oct 26, 2011 9:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

I agree as well about Heyward having a terrible year. We all expected big things from Heyward this year and his stats dropped by a bad margin. From the naked eye Heyward has HUGE hole on any pitches on the inside and he can’t get to fastballs up in the zone. He needs to get the hitch out of swing so he can start handling inside pitches and get on top of pitches up. Or otherwise is going to have another terrible year from Jason Heyward’s standards. I say terrible and instead of disappointing because Heyward should most defiantly be one of the best outfielders in the game. She showed that his rookie season but we only saw a small glimpse of that this season. Hopefully he will turn things around next year and stays healthy (which he never does).

Tomahawk Chop The Competition

by deewill23 on Oct 27, 2011 3:18 AM EDT up reply actions  

You know something we don't?
She showed that his rookie season but we only saw a small glimpse of that this season.

Most people use statistics the way a drunk would use a lamppost—for support, and not for illumination.
www.duwanis.com

by duwanis on Oct 27, 2011 8:14 AM EDT up reply actions  

great review!!

To be the man, you got to beat the man!!

by wisco on Oct 26, 2011 12:21 PM EDT reply actions  

The hyperbole around Heyward’s 2011 is really bizarre. And he had a superb defensive season, by all reasonable accounts, both visual and statistically. He finished 3rd in Fielding Bible voting among RFs.

by pbrfan on Oct 26, 2011 12:28 PM EDT reply actions   1 recs

Jason will greatly improve in 2012...

and a lot will have to do with how he trains and prepares this offseason. But in 2011, the truth is he was a complete liability against LH pitching (.577 OPS)…and a full .150 lower in OPS against RH pitching from 2010 to 2011. He regressed into an offensive platoon player due to his injuries and struggles. His shoulder was probably the most likely culprit, as it seemed that the shoulder limited his ability to change his slot…and therefore he commited his swing way earlier than normal. 2010 Jason made much more solid contact and hustled for a lot of extra bases.

I don’t think anyone doubts that Jason Heyward is a “Generational” talent. I hope he learned a great deal from 2011, most notably that you can’t rely on talent alone to succeed at the ML level. Veterans eventually learn how to diagnose their problems and overcome opposing pitchers’ adjustments, and I think Jason will do well to especially gameplan against LH pitching.

"Reach down in there...TURN THAT DAMN THING UP!" - Coach Paul Johnson

by TBuzz on Oct 26, 2011 12:41 PM EDT reply actions  

As to the platoon split,

say it with me now: SSS. He was fine against them in 2010 (not good, but passable). I think it was mostly just bad luck combined perhaps with some of his discipline/mechanics issues being exacerbated against lefties. If he fixes what was wrong with him this year, he should be OK against lefties going forward.

Plus, as he gets more experience facing them, he should learn to hit them a bit better. That is, assuming he’s not platooned.

"Yeah, and I have an enchanted jock strap." -- Karl Karlson
I now twitter as @junkstats and blog about made-up stats and general baseball stuff at JunkStats.

by Jacob Peterson on Oct 26, 2011 1:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

Keywords: this year

I agree with you, his 2010 numbers prove he can hold his own against LHP.

However, when a guy goes to the plate with a hurt shoulder and flawed mechanics…I don’t think increasing the sample will yield better results.

"Reach down in there...TURN THAT DAMN THING UP!" - Coach Paul Johnson

by TBuzz on Oct 26, 2011 1:08 PM EDT up reply actions  

Well, the shoulder by all accounts should be fine going forward

and I’m sure he and Greg Walker will work very hard to fix the mechanical issues. So I wouldn’t expect it to be an issue next year, at least not to the degree it was in 2011.

"Yeah, and I have an enchanted jock strap." -- Karl Karlson
I now twitter as @junkstats and blog about made-up stats and general baseball stuff at JunkStats.

by Jacob Peterson on Oct 26, 2011 1:17 PM EDT up reply actions  

Not to jump the gun on 2012 predictions, but...

I’m thinking he’ll give us a slash line of .280/.360/.470

"Reach down in there...TURN THAT DAMN THING UP!" - Coach Paul Johnson

by TBuzz on Oct 26, 2011 1:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

I wouldn’t expect his batting average to be that high. I’d think more like .260, given that he probably won’t BABIP in the .330s again. He can hit that .360 OBP with ease, though, even with the lower AVG.

Your prediction assumes a bit of a power bump, which I wouldn’t assume but is certainly a real possibility for a developing player like Heyward. Perhaps a .450 SLG like what he did in 2010 is a better basis for expectation.

"Yeah, and I have an enchanted jock strap." -- Karl Karlson
I now twitter as @junkstats and blog about made-up stats and general baseball stuff at JunkStats.

by Jacob Peterson on Oct 26, 2011 1:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

Just don’t say I’m a hater ;)

"Reach down in there...TURN THAT DAMN THING UP!" - Coach Paul Johnson

by TBuzz on Oct 26, 2011 1:29 PM EDT up reply actions  

We all know you're a hater, TBuzz.

It’s not healthy if you don’t accept it.

Most people use statistics the way a drunk would use a lamppost—for support, and not for illumination.
www.duwanis.com

by duwanis on Oct 26, 2011 1:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'm a H8R!

"Reach down in there...TURN THAT DAMN THING UP!" - Coach Paul Johnson

by TBuzz on Oct 26, 2011 1:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

Jacob...

this may not be your forte’, but has there been any analsis of those mechanics? What was the difference from 2010 to 2011? Slower hands? Longer stroke? Standing further away from the plate? Mechanically, what did he do different in 2010 that he was or wasn’t doing in 2011?

http://sportsandgrits.com/

by Mr. Sanchez on Oct 26, 2011 3:12 PM EDT up reply actions  

OUTSTANDING review!!

I get so tired of the Jason-hate from so-called Braves fans. He is a 22 year old player who has adjustments to make. His best hitting coach last year was the team’s starting 3B so it’s no wonder he struggled. I’’m glad to see the stats back up the fact that he wasn’t as bad as the Negative Nancies portray him to be.

by FourScore199 on Oct 26, 2011 12:44 PM EDT reply actions  

Jason appears to be a nice guy. But he also appears to be a pussy too. He attempts to kill the ball every at bat and this last season unlike his first year tried pulling every pitch. He is too young to get hurt so much especially with all of the medical staff and trainers around him everyday. He must have a low pain threshhold. Or maybe he is afraid of getting seriously hurt. He played just like the entire team played the last 6 weeks of the season — playing not to loose rather than playing to win. It is like he played not to get hurt instead of aggressively.

by stevea on Oct 26, 2011 12:50 PM EDT reply actions  

My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.

by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT

by justincredubil02 on Oct 26, 2011 1:01 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

Best face palm I've seen to date.

"People ask me what I do in winter when there's no baseball. I'll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring." Rogers Hornsby

by adc62 on Oct 26, 2011 1:53 PM EDT up reply actions  

I know I shouldn't take seriously

any supposedly factual statements made in such a silly post, but the whole “Heyward is a pull hitter” thing is a ridiculous myth. His pull splits were basically the same as the average LHB: 31% pull, 53% up the middle, 17% oppo. MLB average for lefties: 28% pull, 55% up the middle, 17% oppo. If anything, he was more of a pull hitter in 2010, by the way: 31% pull, 56% middle, 13% oppo.

Also, you say “attempts to kill the ball every at bat.. tried pulling every pitch” like it’s a bad thing. Jose Bautista is the best hitter in MLB right now, and that is exactly what his approach is. Doesn’t work for everyone, sure, but it can be very good.

"Yeah, and I have an enchanted jock strap." -- Karl Karlson
I now twitter as @junkstats and blog about made-up stats and general baseball stuff at JunkStats.

by Jacob Peterson on Oct 26, 2011 1:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

Having a low pain threshold is not a bad thing, it may tell you something small before it becomes a big thing

  I have a so-called low pain theshold. A small pain to you is a big one to me. That doesn’t make you a better or me a worse person. I am an ex Army Ranger with a few medals and I am 60 yrs old. I have had a lot of pain and I did what I had to do. Jason is a Major League player and you don’t get up there by being a wuss!! He has trainers and coaches who tell him to let them know if anything is wrong, I am pretty sure they do not tell him to stop being a “pussy” and go play. You do not know him and you shouldn’t call him a pussy until you do. Oh BTW, call my daughter a pussy and see what she does to you!

Senator, we have another old saying,"Don't piss down my back and tell me it's raining." Fletcher

by jimmontg on Oct 26, 2011 9:54 PM EDT up reply actions  

Pain is by definition subjective and incapable of exact measurement.

“I feel your pain” – as Bill Clinton famously said – is a great line, but is actually quite ridiculous, because no one can really ever appreciate, judge or quantify anyone else’s pain. Also, there are certain types of injuries that will continuously be aggravated with continued activity and are simply not going to fully heal until the aggravating activity is stopped. In that Jason had a post-season repeat MRI, I tend to think that his shoulder problem was likely in this chronic category and was being tweaked by his swinging of the bat. Also, if his normal swinging of the bat was painful, this would almost certainly tend to mess up his mechanics. Hopefully, with a lengthy period of rest, the shoulder will be fine and his productivity will increase accordingly.

by fandave on Oct 27, 2011 9:02 AM EDT up reply actions  

One more comment—I wish they had named Chipper the hitting coach. He could play and still be the hitting coach. What better person to help others than batting against the pitcher yourself.

by stevea on Oct 26, 2011 12:52 PM EDT reply actions  

Yeah, you're right.

The hitting coach should totally be someone’s second job. You don’t need to fully concentrate on being a hitting coach, after all; it’s not difficult or time-consuming.

"Yeah, and I have an enchanted jock strap." -- Karl Karlson
I now twitter as @junkstats and blog about made-up stats and general baseball stuff at JunkStats.

by Jacob Peterson on Oct 26, 2011 1:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

This.

Helping one or two players is one thing, helping the whole team is another.

If we can land [Stephen Drew], I will give FW a bj.
~justincredubil02

by king of games on Oct 26, 2011 1:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

But we have

An assistant hitting coach now so it would be a breeze

Lead off walks usually lead to runs, unless they don't. -Joe Simpson

If you don't like the way the Atlanta Braves are playing, then you don't like baseball. -Chuck Tanner

by Chapel420 on Oct 26, 2011 2:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

And this is why it was dumb to bench him.

My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.

by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT

by justincredubil02 on Oct 26, 2011 12:59 PM EDT reply actions  

But you can downgrade your offense and defense in one move. Efficient! And what difference is it going to make over 162 games? Not like 1 game is going to matter.

by pbrfan on Oct 26, 2011 1:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.

by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT

by justincredubil02 on Oct 26, 2011 1:09 PM EDT up reply actions  

What if....

since neither of us know the answer, would you consider it “dumb” if the benching was in part to allow him to heal a very injured shoulder, which is a joint that can is easily prone to permanent, irreperable damage? And that his time sitting allowed it to heal so that the chance of said permanent, irreperable damage was gone?

Not saying that’s why Fredi did it, or that his shoulder posed such a danger, but “what if”?

http://sportsandgrits.com/

by Mr. Sanchez on Oct 26, 2011 3:11 PM EDT up reply actions  

Then it was dumb to not DL him and call up another guy to the roster that could help out. If I recall correctly, Sherril was on the DL during that time, so the BP needed some help.

My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.

by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT

by justincredubil02 on Oct 26, 2011 3:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

touche'

http://sportsandgrits.com/

by Mr. Sanchez on Oct 26, 2011 3:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

If they wanted to do that

they did a bad job of it, I think. If you want it to heal, let it heal, don’t put him out there for a couple of innings every other day.

Most people use statistics the way a drunk would use a lamppost—for support, and not for illumination.
www.duwanis.com

by duwanis on Oct 26, 2011 3:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

hence that last line

was just trying to catch my old friend in a trap, and he avoided it expertly.

http://sportsandgrits.com/

by Mr. Sanchez on Oct 26, 2011 3:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

TIRES CANNOT DEFEAT ME!

My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.

by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT

by justincredubil02 on Oct 26, 2011 3:17 PM EDT up reply actions  

Most people use statistics the way a drunk would use a lamppost—for support, and not for illumination.
www.duwanis.com

by duwanis on Oct 26, 2011 3:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

although not deemed a disabling injury, if Jason’s shoulder was continously bothering him and Fredi was trying to utilize him on a day to day basis as much as Jason was physically able to go, say at 80%, but not 65%, but a decision was made to not explain all that to the press, perhaps the so-called benching was not so “dumb” after all.

as fans, to assume we necessarily know everything about every decision, strikes me as extremely mis-guided and arrogant.

by fandave on Oct 27, 2011 9:12 AM EDT up reply actions  

If he was hurting but they were trying to get a few ABs here and there out of him...

instead of letting him rest and using him at full health to end the season, then it was still dumb.

Also, nobody’s assuming we necessarily know everything about every decision. We’re making judgments based on what we do know. And I haven’t seen or heard of a theory yet that convinces me that he shouldn’t have been either demoted or put on the DL.

Most people use statistics the way a drunk would use a lamppost—for support, and not for illumination.
www.duwanis.com

by duwanis on Oct 27, 2011 9:20 AM EDT up reply actions  

Pac,

as usual, you hit this out of the park. Nicely done!

My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.

by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT

by justincredubil02 on Oct 26, 2011 1:06 PM EDT reply actions  

Thanks, man.

"Yeah, and I have an enchanted jock strap." -- Karl Karlson
I now twitter as @junkstats and blog about made-up stats and general baseball stuff at JunkStats.

by Jacob Peterson on Oct 26, 2011 1:14 PM EDT up reply actions  

I’m overly tired of Heyward being compared to lower caliber players as an excuse for his performance. He had a bad year because he should have been much better, not because of any statistical measures. We should all know by now that Heyward had an acceptable season by statistical standards, but acceptable for a prospect of Heyward’s caliber is still a bad year.

If we can land [Stephen Drew], I will give FW a bj.
~justincredubil02

by king of games on Oct 26, 2011 1:12 PM EDT reply actions  

Irrelevant.

He should only ever get better. Any setbacks or hiccups are indications that he’s just, as we feared, the next Francouer.

Most people use statistics the way a drunk would use a lamppost—for support, and not for illumination.
www.duwanis.com

by duwanis on Oct 26, 2011 1:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

Now this is funny...

"Reach down in there...TURN THAT DAMN THING UP!" - Coach Paul Johnson

by TBuzz on Oct 26, 2011 1:17 PM EDT up reply actions  

Don’t think anyone is giving up on him and calling him the next Frenchy. I’m sure most people believe that Heyward will rebound in 2012, including me.

I don’t care if Constanza hit .500 with 30 HRs and 150 RBI in 3 weeks, benching Heyward was a stupid decision.
by justincredubil02 on Oct 24, 2011 9:55 AM EDT

by rockybull on Oct 26, 2011 1:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

Did I say anybody was?

Most people use statistics the way a drunk would use a lamppost—for support, and not for illumination.
www.duwanis.com

by duwanis on Oct 26, 2011 1:27 PM EDT up reply actions  

only sarcastically :)

I like people until I meet them.

by scorby911 on Oct 26, 2011 6:14 PM EDT up reply actions  

Jason Adenolith Heyward was a local kid picked in the 1st round!!! He’s an oufielder who plays right field!!! He’s Jeff Francoeur!!!!!

by another simpsons avatar on Oct 26, 2011 1:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

I didn’t say he had to be a superstar this year, I’m saying he had a bad year and comparing him to Martin Prado and Nate McLouth doesn’t make it a good one.

If we can land [Stephen Drew], I will give FW a bj.
~justincredubil02

by king of games on Oct 26, 2011 1:53 PM EDT up reply actions  

See, this is why I went to great lengths

to specify the difference between “bad” and “disappointing.” You are using them like they are synonyms, but they are not. Bad is objective, disappointing is relative. You can say it was a “bad year by his standards” or whatever—that’s true enough—but it wasn’t a bad year by objective standards.

"Yeah, and I have an enchanted jock strap." -- Karl Karlson
I now twitter as @junkstats and blog about made-up stats and general baseball stuff at JunkStats.

by Jacob Peterson on Oct 26, 2011 1:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

Sorry, should have been more clear. I wasn’t commenting on your article as much as the general argument used to defend Heyward. Your article was spot on.

If we can land [Stephen Drew], I will give FW a bj.
~justincredubil02

by king of games on Oct 26, 2011 1:49 PM EDT up reply actions  

This should be required reading for every Braves fan where ever they may be. Excellent analysis. Thanks.

"First!"...Who gives a damn if you are first

by bighop on Oct 26, 2011 1:23 PM EDT reply actions  

Thanks!

"Yeah, and I have an enchanted jock strap." -- Karl Karlson
I now twitter as @junkstats and blog about made-up stats and general baseball stuff at JunkStats.

by Jacob Peterson on Oct 26, 2011 1:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

The expectations

of Heyward’s sophomore season made his play seem so much worse than it actually was. You’re right, when you examine the evidence objectively (which is what statistics is designed to do), his numbers are not that atrocious. Yes they are average and yes we didn’t expect him to be an average player. But, when subjectivity creeps back into the analysis, it seems as if he bombed this year.

Having said that, I hope he doesn’t repeat his 2011 performance.

by aaaaandTheBravesWin on Oct 26, 2011 1:26 PM EDT reply actions  

Haha, me too, me too.

We’d all be really bummed if he repeated his 2011.

"Yeah, and I have an enchanted jock strap." -- Karl Karlson
I now twitter as @junkstats and blog about made-up stats and general baseball stuff at JunkStats.

by Jacob Peterson on Oct 26, 2011 1:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

I really wonder what Walker told Wren about his plan for Heyward

to cause him to be hired almost immediately?

Braves.
Falcons.
Gamecocks.

by walknbalk on Oct 26, 2011 1:26 PM EDT reply actions  

maybe

Walker said something to the effect that Heyward’s swing could be Votto-esque if he (heyward) moved closer to the plate and brought his arms closer to his body.

by JoelGuzman'sScout on Oct 26, 2011 1:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

"Jason Heyward will be MVP in 2012...

or you can fire my ass"

"Reach down in there...TURN THAT DAMN THING UP!" - Coach Paul Johnson

by TBuzz on Oct 26, 2011 1:39 PM EDT up reply actions  

Heyward’s batting average dropped a whopping 50 points in 2011, from .277 to .257.

Math?

Twitter: @TAlmeyda

by TonyAlmeyda on Oct 26, 2011 1:46 PM EDT reply actions  

More like 'typo'

.227 was the actual figure. Call it a ‘dyslexic 5’.

"Forget Roy Halladay or Clayton Kershaw or Cliff Lee, the NL Cy Young Award should go to O’Ventrel." - David Schoenfield, ESPN.com, 8/19/11

by carpengui on Oct 26, 2011 2:06 PM EDT up reply actions  

JHEY

Nice attempt to be objective on JHEY’S 2011 seson. But comparing one of your team studs against other underacieving players is senseless. To compare one of your team studs with league avgs, too is sensless. There was a reason that Freddie benched JHEY late in the season. Lack of production, plan and simple. He had a miseralbe sophmore season, he did not hit the ball with authority and like the rest of the team his plate discipline was poor. Will he bouce back, probably so. But when you are one of the studs on an MLB team, you’ve gotta produce. Simply put in 2011, he didn’t.

by jerryr on Oct 26, 2011 2:06 PM EDT reply actions  

The Pope would like to see you

My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.

by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT

by justincredubil02 on Oct 26, 2011 2:08 PM EDT up reply actions  

Pelican

"Forget Roy Halladay or Clayton Kershaw or Cliff Lee, the NL Cy Young Award should go to O’Ventrel." - David Schoenfield, ESPN.com, 8/19/11

by carpengui on Oct 26, 2011 2:14 PM EDT up reply actions  

The Scary Part
* One weird fact is that 5 of the 20 lowest LD rates in MLB were Braves (Prado was 9th, Uggla 13th, McCann 15th, and Chipper 19th). Overall, the Braves had the 3rd-worst LD% in baseball, ahead of only the Giants and the Nats. Either there’s a glitch in the batted-ball classification regarding the Braves (very possible) or something was very, very wrong with the team’s hitting approach (yeah, that too).

As suggested by striking out part of that quote, I am suggesting that it was the latter: the team’s approach. I’m sure everybody recalls a multitude of games in which we were all going “gaaah – another first pitch swing”. I personally was trying to write that off as a specific approach to pitchers who got ahead in the count a lot. Even if that was the case, I gotta think that there were a lot of ‘too aggressive’ guys out there trying to hit pitches outside their zones. If one guy or two are doing that, it’s an aberration. 5 in the top 20 and 3rd worst LD% in all of baseball? Now we’re talking about an organizational issue. I’ll be curious to see if the data suggests continued trends in this direction.

"Forget Roy Halladay or Clayton Kershaw or Cliff Lee, the NL Cy Young Award should go to O’Ventrel." - David Schoenfield, ESPN.com, 8/19/11

by carpengui on Oct 26, 2011 2:13 PM EDT reply actions  

I’m sure glad someone finally brought up how awesome Heyward is for getting all those walks. It’s amazing how people forget all those legendary players in the Hall of Fame because they got so many walks. Who could forget that David Justice walk in game 6 of the ‘95 World Series? Or Mike Napoli’s go-ahead walk just the other night? And how about those walk-off walks by Joe Carter or Kirk Gibson in World Series past? That’s exactly what I want from my generational-talent corner outfielder: I want to look back and say, “Nobody could walk above the league average like Jason Heyward.”

by MississippiBrave on Oct 26, 2011 2:19 PM EDT via mobile reply actions  

I'm with you

people who take walks instead of making outs don’t belong in MLB. Go big or go home, baby!

My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.

by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT

by justincredubil02 on Oct 26, 2011 2:22 PM EDT up reply actions  

The point is we are supposedly doing a post mortem on the season performance of corner outfielder, middle of the order-type hitter and we are propping up his performance with walk rates, etc. OK. Walks matter. They’re better than outs. I get it. But that’s not the main result you want out if this type of player. I’m just sick of hearing about how great he is because he walks a lot and has plate discipline. So did Scott Hatteberg.

by MississippiBrave on Oct 26, 2011 2:40 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

Are you sure you are commenting on the right article? Because, according to what you are saying, the only reason Heyward was good was because he walked…yet, I don’t find that anywhere in the write-up. In fact, I read a myriad of reasons why Heyward actually wasn’t all that bad at the plate – and the least of which was his BB%.

My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.

by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT

by justincredubil02 on Oct 26, 2011 2:47 PM EDT up reply actions  

Who said he was a middle-of-the-order-type hitter?

We were all lambasting Fredi at the start of the year because he wanted to bat Heyward in the middle of the order, and now all of a sudden we’re giving Heyward crap because he isn’t performing like our ideal middle-of-the-order type hitter?

He’s going to hit how he’s going to hit. Classify him based on his performance, don’t ridicule his performance based on some ideal classification for him that you have in mind.

Most people use statistics the way a drunk would use a lamppost—for support, and not for illumination.
www.duwanis.com

by duwanis on Oct 26, 2011 2:48 PM EDT up reply actions  

Are you serious?

You cannot be serious with that question.

by MississippiBrave on Oct 26, 2011 3:04 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

Humor me.

Most people use statistics the way a drunk would use a lamppost—for support, and not for illumination.
www.duwanis.com

by duwanis on Oct 26, 2011 3:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

If "middle of the order"

means the 2 spot, I’d agree. If not, then he’s a “top” of the order bat to me, i.e. perfect for the 2 spot.

http://sportsandgrits.com/

by Mr. Sanchez on Oct 26, 2011 3:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

Thanks

for a second there I thought I was going crazy.

Most people use statistics the way a drunk would use a lamppost—for support, and not for illumination.
www.duwanis.com

by duwanis on Oct 26, 2011 3:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

I forgot how no one ever claimed he was supposed to be a middle of the order-type bat. I guess I dreamed that…
Man. You guys like to use a lot of revision in your arguments. Are you Auburn fans?

by MississippiBrave on Oct 26, 2011 3:44 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

Fredi claimed he was supposed to be a middle-of-the-order guy

and took a lot of crap for it on this site, as I recall, so I’m really not sure what you’re talking about.

Most people use statistics the way a drunk would use a lamppost—for support, and not for illumination.
www.duwanis.com

by duwanis on Oct 26, 2011 3:45 PM EDT up reply actions  

So it's "no one" or "everyone" there is no middle ground?

Some have said all along he’s a 2 hole hitter. Some say different. I’ll let your Mississippi education inform you which of those groups duwanis and myself are in.

/That may be a personal attack, but you started by calling me an Auburn fan, which fits the legal definition of “fightin words”.

http://sportsandgrits.com/

by Mr. Sanchez on Oct 26, 2011 3:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah. That’s a pretty ridiculous and ignorant personal attack. I would imagine TonyAlmeda would take exception to that, as well.

by MississippiBrave on Oct 26, 2011 4:57 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

And BTW...

I was referring to Napoli’s go-ahead double in game 5. I am fully aware of and comfortable with the fact that home runs are not the alpha and omega of run production and slugging.

by MississippiBrave on Oct 26, 2011 2:44 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

I'm amused...

that Joe Morgan is in the Top 5.

"Reach down in there...TURN THAT DAMN THING UP!" - Coach Paul Johnson

by TBuzz on Oct 26, 2011 2:56 PM EDT up reply actions  

You see, if you can take four balls

then they let you walk to first base. It helps you have more base runners.

http://sportsandgrits.com/

by Mr. Sanchez on Oct 26, 2011 3:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

You gotta be careful about when you do that, though

you don’t want to clog up the bases for the next guy.

Most people use statistics the way a drunk would use a lamppost—for support, and not for illumination.
www.duwanis.com

by duwanis on Oct 26, 2011 3:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

I don’t blame the guys who took steroids, I blame the ones who told on them!

My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.

by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT

by justincredubil02 on Oct 26, 2011 3:17 PM EDT up reply actions  

See, there you go proving his point

The all-time walk leader isn’t even in the HoF.

Walks are worthless.

Most people use statistics the way a drunk would use a lamppost—for support, and not for illumination.
www.duwanis.com

by duwanis on Oct 26, 2011 2:56 PM EDT up reply actions  

Again...

I never said walks were worthless. In fact, I don’t need the Capitol Avenue Club gang to tell me that players in the Hall of Fame particularly based on their offensive prowess walked a lot. It’s no big secret that the best hitters tend to be very selective. I suppose that’s all they brought to the table?
Regardless, I am also not arguing that Heyward is a failure if he doesn’t have a Hall of Fame career. But the fact that the GM served public notice that he would have to earn his starting spot in spring training shows quite a difference in the way the organization viewed his season performance and the way his performance is being treated here.

by MississippiBrave on Oct 26, 2011 3:35 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

I don't think it does

If you have a disappointing year, you’re going to have to work hard to prove that you can get over it. Nobody’s saying he didn’t have a disappointing year; it wasn’t bad, though, and he still shows promise: one of the ways he showed promise was by having a really high walk rate in spite of all the problems he was having. It’s not all he offers, nor will it be for a long time to come, but it’s worth noting.

Most people use statistics the way a drunk would use a lamppost—for support, and not for illumination.
www.duwanis.com

by duwanis on Oct 26, 2011 3:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

gang

Twitter: @Ben_Duronio Stop calling Tommy Hanson "Big Red"

by BenDuronio on Oct 26, 2011 4:11 PM EDT up reply actions  

Is that anything like the Butter Creek Gang?

My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.

by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT

by justincredubil02 on Oct 26, 2011 4:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

well they saddled up in Boston, still wet behind the ears!

(I bet you had no clue I not only know the movie, but can probably sing the whole song and quote each scene from the movie – as well as the Apple Dumpling Gang Rides Again)

Not bad for a 26-year-old, right?

My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.

by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT

by justincredubil02 on Oct 26, 2011 6:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

If Chipper does what he does

Then he should break the Top 15 all time.

Lead off walks usually lead to runs, unless they don't. -Joe Simpson

If you don't like the way the Atlanta Braves are playing, then you don't like baseball. -Chuck Tanner

by Chapel420 on Oct 26, 2011 3:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

Doubt it, unless he decides to come back for another go after next year.

If we can land [Stephen Drew], I will give FW a bj.
~justincredubil02

by king of games on Oct 26, 2011 3:14 PM EDT up reply actions  

He’s still got an option year for 2013, so I don’t see it as being horribly out of the question…

-C

It’s rough to sit through these games and not have someone that can’t hit a Ball?

by cthabeerman on Oct 26, 2011 5:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

True, but even if he did come back for 2013 it would be tough for him to crack 15. Possible, but tough.

If we can land [Stephen Drew], I will give FW a bj.
~justincredubil02

by king of games on Oct 26, 2011 6:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

rather than as a counting stat, I wonder where he is on the BB/PA% list when limited to players with say 6000 PA (which would include 623 players in ML history, to date). On the counting stat lists, Chipper is currently 71st with 10166 PA and 21st with 1455 BB.

by fandave on Oct 27, 2011 9:27 AM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah, but how many of those guys could hit HRs too??? Huh? Clearly, as laid out in the OP’s post, a guy is either going to be good at walking or winning games with a hit. I don’t see anyone on that list who could win a game.

My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.

by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT

by justincredubil02 on Oct 26, 2011 3:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

Be fair

Barry Bonds had some walk-off IBBs.

Most people use statistics the way a drunk would use a lamppost—for support, and not for illumination.
www.duwanis.com

by duwanis on Oct 26, 2011 3:29 PM EDT up reply actions  

Original Poster – you

My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.

by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT

by justincredubil02 on Oct 26, 2011 3:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

Thanks.

It was not my intention to insinuate that home runs are all that matter. In fact, one of my replies clearly stated that I included a reference to Napoli’s game 5 double to highlight that point.

by MississippiBrave on Oct 26, 2011 3:56 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

Which is why I said “end games with a hit”

My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.

by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT

by justincredubil02 on Oct 26, 2011 4:05 PM EDT up reply actions  

Napoli’s double was in the bottom of the 8th.

by MississippiBrave on Oct 26, 2011 4:40 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

So it wasn’t a game-winner?

My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.

by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT

by justincredubil02 on Oct 26, 2011 6:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

It was a game winner, but it did not end the game.

by MississippiBrave on Oct 26, 2011 7:02 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

Actually, I see your point now. You originally referred to hits that win games. Then you later said “ends games with” which is what I was looking at. My bad. Muz b my Missipi edumacation.

by MississippiBrave on Oct 26, 2011 7:05 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

I have a reason why people think he had a terrible season

I’m not smart enough to figure this out but what was his BA with RISP in 2010 vs 2011? Plus I recall seeing a lot of called third strikes that were too close to take, especially with 2 outs and RISP.

Lead off walks usually lead to runs, unless they don't. -Joe Simpson

If you don't like the way the Atlanta Braves are playing, then you don't like baseball. -Chuck Tanner

by Chapel420 on Oct 26, 2011 2:55 PM EDT reply actions  

2010 RISP- 158 PA; 29BB/30K; .306/.443/.484/.927
2011 RISP- 99 PA; 14BB/14K; .218/.354/.346/.700

2010 RISP with 2 outs- 77 PA; 16BB/15K; .345/.506/.603/1.110
2011 RISP with 2 outs- 42 PA; 7BB/4K; .294/.429/.500/.929

By my math, and my math is horrible, he K’d less with RISP than in 2010.

People will come Ray. The one constant through all the years, Ray, has been baseball. America has rolled by like an army of steamrollers. It has been erased like a blackboard, rebuilt and erased again. But baseball has marked the time. This field, this game: it's a part of our past, Ray. It reminds of us of all that once was good and it could be again.

by mvandonsel on Oct 26, 2011 3:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

So

Basically in 2010 he got a hit 1 out of every 3 chances and in 2011 got a hit 1 out of every 5 chances. And my comment about the called third strikes was more to do with him not trying to keep the at-bat alive and get a better pitch than the actual strikeouts.

Lead off walks usually lead to runs, unless they don't. -Joe Simpson

If you don't like the way the Atlanta Braves are playing, then you don't like baseball. -Chuck Tanner

by Chapel420 on Oct 26, 2011 3:54 PM EDT up reply actions  

Teehee
I can round one number UP and another number DOWN and make the seperation seem even wider!

My buddy and I just decided that the braves would be set if we could get Matt Kemp, Jose Reyes, and Albert Pujols.

by willlinn on May 17, 2011 2:13 PM EDT

by Bronn on Oct 27, 2011 1:43 PM EDT up reply actions  

all these fancy schmancy metrics

don’t explain the sinking feeling in my gut every time I saw Heyward come to the plate. He was awful, and I hope he bounces back with a vengeance next year. Put up a career Chipper line of .300/.400/.500. DO IT.

[My dad's] at work making $32 an hour.
by ChopMaster on Jun 29, 2011 2:52 PM PDT

by Jareth Cutestory on Oct 26, 2011 3:29 PM EDT reply actions  

Now now now Jareth...

You can’t say he was “awful”. His approach…yeah pretty awful.

"Reach down in there...TURN THAT DAMN THING UP!" - Coach Paul Johnson

by TBuzz on Oct 26, 2011 3:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

strikeout...bouncer to 2nd...(occasional) homer

bouncer to 2nd. giant holes in his swing. it pains me that he so underperformed, but he was built up to be this monster out of the box, and he proved it for a few months 2 seasons ago. but even in ’10 his weaknesses started to show, and continued into ’11. a lot may be attributed to being injured (which is another discussion), but much can also be linked to his violent swing that takes the head of the bat through a looping track.

i’m not a “hater,” (i hate that f*cking word) i just want the best for the guy. hopefully some chipper time in the offseason will right the ship.

[My dad's] at work making $32 an hour.
by ChopMaster on Jun 29, 2011 2:52 PM PDT

by Jareth Cutestory on Oct 26, 2011 3:37 PM EDT up reply actions  

He homered at the same rate or faster than 2010

by pbrfan on Oct 26, 2011 9:08 PM EDT up reply actions  

Numbers are nice but don't tell the story.

As usual Jason has done a great job breaking down the numbers and offering his interpretation of the result.

Having watched most games the numbers and the eye don’t match.

Defense – Jason’s a fine specimen in the outfield, fleet of foot and rocket for an arm right?
Well I remember plenty of short right field throws into the ground or way up the line preventing any play at the plate. As painful as this sounds I often thought, Francouer would have nailed the runner. Jason was not accurate in his throws to the plate. Don’t think there is a stat for that.

Offense- yes there was a fine breakdown of Jason’s stats but no real conclusion can be derived since the numbers do not tell the story. Do the numbers show the frequency JH rolled over a ball to ground to second base? How do the numbers show that by hustling near the end of the year he turned a few auto outs into a bang bang play at first he sometimes won? Stats would say that he improved since he was on base but a real follower of the game sees that unsustainable infield hits were the cause of his OBP rise in September.

Not hating on Jason, just hating the stats.

by crack of the bat on Oct 26, 2011 3:34 PM EDT reply actions  

Are throws to the plate not counted in the defensive metrics?

I honestly don’t know if those are considered for things like +/-.

Most people use statistics the way a drunk would use a lamppost—for support, and not for illumination.
www.duwanis.com

by duwanis on Oct 26, 2011 3:45 PM EDT up reply actions  

Duwanis

I don’t think they are but someone here will confirm. Its like baserunning metrics that can’t measure taking an extra base.

by crack of the bat on Oct 26, 2011 3:50 PM EDT up reply actions  

There are.

And baserunning metrics now exist also.

Jason has a cannon, but he isn’t very good on his aim. Fielding Bible had his arm at -3, -2 in 2010-11 and UZR has his arm at -4.9, -1.7 for 2010-11. So it’s consistently below average thus far. Again, anyone that’s seen him throw knows he has a rocket arm. He just hasn’t learned to hone the missile guidance system yet.

Otherwise, he plays about as good a RF as you could hope for.

-C

It’s rough to sit through these games and not have someone that can’t hit a Ball?

by cthabeerman on Oct 26, 2011 5:49 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think it’s time to start questioning your eye rather than questioning the numbers. He was productive, the most productive outfielder on the roster, although he did not live up to the expectations many of us had after his stellar 2010 and his impressive minor league resume.

Twitter: @Ben_Duronio Stop calling Tommy Hanson "Big Red"

by BenDuronio on Oct 26, 2011 4:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

ben

You are usually right on but your comparison is like saying Jason is the tallest midget. Your control group is lousy.

by crack of the bat on Oct 26, 2011 4:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

My comparison is saying that it’s your eye that needs questioning, not the eye. He was able to hit right around league average and play very good defense. He was not a disaster. A disaster is Vernon Wells, and comparing those two would be like saying Jason is the tallest midget.

Twitter: @Ben_Duronio Stop calling Tommy Hanson "Big Red"

by BenDuronio on Oct 26, 2011 4:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

Misplaced aggression

Don’t be angry with the messenger. FW basically said JH was not guaranteed a starting spot for his league average play. So FW’s eye is bad too?

by crack of the bat on Oct 26, 2011 5:02 PM EDT up reply actions  

If Wren were to consider not starting Jason Heyward next season, yes he has problems with his evaluations. Whether it be his eye, numbers, or whatever made him come to the conclusion that Heyward should not start on this team, his evaluation skills should be questioned.

Twitter: @Ben_Duronio Stop calling Tommy Hanson "Big Red"

by BenDuronio on Oct 26, 2011 5:05 PM EDT up reply actions  

Emotion has no place in stats.

So really there is no need to work with him on his batting or get a new batting coach. Every pitcher that has the book on Heyward should ignore it.
He has no holes in his swing and should not scoot up to the plate. Yes stats are great!

Incredibly myopic reasoning for you Ben. I’ve seen your commentary before and it is usually correct. Wide left on this one…..

by crack of the bat on Oct 26, 2011 5:12 PM EDT up reply actions  

Myopic reasoning being that I have stated that he was the best outfielder on the team?

The fact that your eye cannot tell that shows problems with your eye, not the numbers. Either your eye is poor at evaluating talent (highly likely), or your eye is poor at evaluating numbers (also highly likely). The problem in this scenario isn’t me, Jason, or Jacob’s post, but rather the fact that you trust your eye so much that you have a hard time understanding that it is wrong — and judging by this conversation it likely usually is in regards to baseball.

Twitter: @Ben_Duronio Stop calling Tommy Hanson "Big Red"

by BenDuronio on Oct 26, 2011 5:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

Here's mud in your eye

Don’t let facts get in the way of a good argument. Yes my eye is really bad. Played ball through highschool, ten years of competitive softball after college and five years as head coach of little league softball, baseball and allstar teams. You may be a match for poor Chopmaster but don’t bring that junk to me.

by crack of the bat on Oct 26, 2011 5:49 PM EDT up reply actions  

Oh my Allah

Are you serious????

You played ball in highschool AND softball afterwards???

Can I have your autograph????

My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.

by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT

by justincredubil02 on Oct 26, 2011 6:02 PM EDT up reply actions  

it simply notes that I’ve seen a few at bats in my years. Do you want your autograph on your forehead or is that reserved for Beiber?

by crack of the bat on Oct 26, 2011 6:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

I get it

My name is Justin. Bieber’s name is Justin! Clever!

Seriously though – are you using highschool baseball and beer league softball as your qualification to judge a MLB player’s swing?

I only ask because I’m willing to bet that at least 75% of the people in here have the same exact qualifications.

Hell, I’m 26 years old and have those qualifications – as well as coaching 2 teams to softball championships.

And I would be one of the last people to think I know what a MLB swing is supposed to look like and how to correct it – let alone use my prestigious ball-playing career as the basis of said expertise.

My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.

by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT

by justincredubil02 on Oct 26, 2011 6:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

so you haven't noticed ptichers

throwing high and inside to Jason? Our own players talk about it in interviews, announcers talk about during the broadcast. I also wouldn’t compare beer league softball coach where you argue bad calls in loud drunk voices to a little league coach where you teach fundamentals to children.

by crack of the bat on Oct 27, 2011 12:24 PM EDT up reply actions  

Jason’s weakness was low and inside pitches.

And dude – seriously. little league coach is not really a credential. No offense, I’m glad you volunteer your time, but stop pretending like it makes you an authority.

You haven’t done anything that 75% of the rest of us haven’t.

My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.

by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT

by justincredubil02 on Oct 27, 2011 4:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

Numbers

Ben, I know you are a stats guy but until you show me a stat that measures hustle, Baseball IQ and momentum I’ll rely on the eye.

by crack of the bat on Oct 26, 2011 4:27 PM EDT up reply actions  

How, pray tell, does hustle, IQ, and momentum lead to runs?

"Reach down in there...TURN THAT DAMN THING UP!" - Coach Paul Johnson

by TBuzz on Oct 26, 2011 4:53 PM EDT up reply actions  

oh Tbuzz

Is that a real question or are you playing dumb?

by crack of the bat on Oct 26, 2011 4:58 PM EDT up reply actions  

That's a real question.
  • If a fast player hustles from 1st to 2nd on a short gap liner, does he accomplish more than a player who lines a double into the RF corner and doesn’t hustle to get to 3B because he knows he’ll get thrown out?
  • If a player steals a base at a high rate of success, is that a skill or is it hustle?
  • If a player advances to 2B on a throwing error does it not change the fact that it should have never had 1B to begin with?
  • If a player gets thrown out at 1st base while hustling his ass off and the throw beats him by 1 step instead of 5 steps…then it doesn’t really matter does it?

"Reach down in there...TURN THAT DAMN THING UP!" - Coach Paul Johnson

by TBuzz on Oct 26, 2011 5:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

100%

Finally, you are on the right side of a debate!!! :)

My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.

by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT

by justincredubil02 on Oct 26, 2011 6:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

So, you’re saying that you’re always right when debating? ;)

I don’t care if Constanza hit .500 with 30 HRs and 150 RBI in 3 weeks, benching Heyward was a stupid decision.
by justincredubil02 on Oct 24, 2011 9:55 AM EDT

by rockybull on Oct 26, 2011 8:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

Duh

Except when I’m wrong. But if I was wrong, don’t you think I would know that?

My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.

by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT

by justincredubil02 on Oct 26, 2011 11:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think its a pretty safe bet...

that at least once in your life you’ve been wrong about something you thought you were right about…

"Reach down in there...TURN THAT DAMN THING UP!" - Coach Paul Johnson

by TBuzz on Oct 27, 2011 8:50 AM EDT up reply actions  

no. on the very few occasions when he thought he might be wrong about something, he was actually right then too.

by fandave on Oct 27, 2011 9:31 AM EDT up reply actions  

Either I botched the quote

or you missed it.

My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.

by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT

by justincredubil02 on Oct 27, 2011 4:11 PM EDT up reply actions  

Do you guys watch games?

If don’t understand the correlation between hustling or loafing and its effect on a ballgame maybe try following another sport. Geez, those examples above aren’t even worth answering …….

by crack of the bat on Oct 27, 2011 12:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

That's not the real question

the real question is: does a run scored by “hustling” count any more than a run scored by someone who was able to take the extra base easily? Should it?

Most people use statistics the way a drunk would use a lamppost—for support, and not for illumination.
www.duwanis.com

by duwanis on Oct 27, 2011 2:06 PM EDT up reply actions  

You know most guys that get cut from sports teams are usually guys who hustle the most, but lack the required skills to compete?

My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.

by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT

by justincredubil02 on Oct 26, 2011 6:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

Every day I'm hustlin'

My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.

by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT

by justincredubil02 on Oct 27, 2011 4:11 PM EDT up reply actions  

Anybody else notice is spits in Braves wins vs. losses??

In wins- 252 PA; 35BB/50K; .263/.373/.460/.833; .303 BAbip
In losses- 202 PA; 16BB/43K; .186/.252/.306/.558; .212 BAbip

People will come Ray. The one constant through all the years, Ray, has been baseball. America has rolled by like an army of steamrollers. It has been erased like a blackboard, rebuilt and erased again. But baseball has marked the time. This field, this game: it's a part of our past, Ray. It reminds of us of all that once was good and it could be again.

by mvandonsel on Oct 26, 2011 3:41 PM EDT reply actions  

Are you somehow suggesting that Heyward is important to our team? :)

My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.

by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT

by justincredubil02 on Oct 26, 2011 3:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

He better be careful

or someone is gonna takehisjob

Lead off walks usually lead to runs, unless they don't. -Joe Simpson

If you don't like the way the Atlanta Braves are playing, then you don't like baseball. -Chuck Tanner

by Chapel420 on Oct 26, 2011 3:55 PM EDT up reply actions  

If you don't like Heyward

YOUCANGITOUT!

My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.

by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT

by justincredubil02 on Oct 26, 2011 4:06 PM EDT up reply actions  

Now, Justin, he ain't hurtin' nobody.

If we can land [Stephen Drew], I will give FW a bj.
~justincredubil02

by king of games on Oct 26, 2011 5:08 PM EDT up reply actions  

Exactly.

For his career:

In wins- 611 PA; 90BB/111K; .294/.406/.514/.920; .337 BAbip
In losses- 466 PA; 52BB/110K; .207/.305/.318/.622; .257 BAbip

People will come Ray. The one constant through all the years, Ray, has been baseball. America has rolled by like an army of steamrollers. It has been erased like a blackboard, rebuilt and erased again. But baseball has marked the time. This field, this game: it's a part of our past, Ray. It reminds of us of all that once was good and it could be again.

by mvandonsel on Oct 26, 2011 4:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

It's interesting...

But probably true for most players.

When players don’t do well, the team loses more often. When they do, the team wins more often. I’m pretty sure I heard a stat akin to this a lot early in the season with Prado.

-C

It’s rough to sit through these games and not have someone that can’t hit a Ball?

by cthabeerman on Oct 26, 2011 5:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah, you are probably correct. However, I feel like some teams can win despite poor play from some players. While some players have more influence on the outcome of a game. If that makes sense.

People will come Ray. The one constant through all the years, Ray, has been baseball. America has rolled by like an army of steamrollers. It has been erased like a blackboard, rebuilt and erased again. But baseball has marked the time. This field, this game: it's a part of our past, Ray. It reminds of us of all that once was good and it could be again.

by mvandonsel on Oct 27, 2011 1:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think most everyone agrees how important he is to the Braves now and (especially) in the future. I think that’s mainly why you see so much “disappointment” in his contributions. In fact, I would bet a lot of those perceived to be “haters” are actually just people freaked out that this kid is going to crater. I, for one, would be thrilled if he came out in 2012 and put up anything close to .260/.350/.440. He’s gotta get back on track. The absolute most troubling thing thing I saw this year was the seeming complete lack of adjustments. Hopefully that will change

by MississippiBrave on Oct 26, 2011 4:35 PM EDT via mobile reply actions  

Are those of us questioning his plate approach (more specifically, his approach against LH pitching) really haters? Either his injured shoulder is limiting his potential, or he’s been figured out and can’t adjust. His 2010 numbers would lead me to believe it’s the shoulder…

"Reach down in there...TURN THAT DAMN THING UP!" - Coach Paul Johnson

by TBuzz on Oct 26, 2011 4:56 PM EDT up reply actions  

No. I don’t think that makes you a hater at all. I would tend to agree with everything you listed there. I do think that just about anyone who is critical of him or voicing real concern is being labeled a “hater” right now. This thread today is a prime example.

by MississippiBrave on Oct 26, 2011 5:07 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

Sorry.

I guess you only listed one thing. Regardless, my main point was that there are probably a very few people who are truly haters. But there are lots of people being labeled that way.

by MississippiBrave on Oct 26, 2011 5:11 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

Hey, if OBP were important it would be on the scoreboard.

If we can land [Stephen Drew], I will give FW a bj.
~justincredubil02

by king of games on Oct 26, 2011 5:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

OBP is certainly important, no question.
@ TBuzz – As I said, you are not a hater, in my opinion. Neither am I.

by MississippiBrave on Oct 26, 2011 5:51 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

Heyward is young, and he will get better

But the amount of fanboy free passes being given out for his 2010 season is a little ridiculous.

Look, most of us agree that he will get much better and possibly even be great, but to use that fact and the fact that he was the best out of a group of [shitty] outfielders is a pretty weak argument.

222/.319/.389

If anyone else put that up besides Heyward we would all be calling it a complete failure and be looking for a replacement.

Obviously, Heyward is only 22 and we should stick with him, but lets not wear too rosy of glasses when looking back on 2010. He was bad. His swing looked bad. He looked downright lost at times.

Lets all just hope he gets it back together in 2012, or this offense will be just as toothless as it was in 2011. This team needs his OBP and power to keep things moving.

Freeman isn’t on Heyward’s level in terms of tools, skills, or baseball IQ–but it’s fair to say Freeman has failed to meet the modest expectations in place for him - Capitol Avenue Club (May 28th, 2011)

by ATLandUNC on Oct 26, 2011 5:34 PM EDT reply actions  

I also realize that I referred to Heyward’s most recent season as 2010 twice in my post. I am still living in the past, obviously.

Freeman isn’t on Heyward’s level in terms of tools, skills, or baseball IQ–but it’s fair to say Freeman has failed to meet the modest expectations in place for him - Capitol Avenue Club (May 28th, 2011)

by ATLandUNC on Oct 26, 2011 6:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

No team should be looking to replace 2+ WAR players making 400K

by pbrfan on Oct 26, 2011 9:11 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'm probably gonna get killed for saying this

But Franceour was better his first two full seasons than Heyward. He played all 324 games, had over 200 RBIs and was BETTER the second full season. Just about anyway you look he was better than Heyward, for the first two full seasons. He might have fallen off a cliff after that but if you’re going to compare than it’s only fair to compare the first two full seasons. Plus Frenchy was 22 & 23 so the age is comparable too. I’m not a Heyward hater but I just don’t get the hype.

Did I mention I’m only talking about the first two full seasons?

Lead off walks usually lead to runs, unless they don't. -Joe Simpson

If you don't like the way the Atlanta Braves are playing, then you don't like baseball. -Chuck Tanner

by Chapel420 on Oct 26, 2011 5:51 PM EDT reply actions  

You’re so going to get killed for saying that.

by MississippiBrave on Oct 26, 2011 5:53 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

/me grabs popcorn.

Most people use statistics the way a drunk would use a lamppost—for support, and not for illumination.
www.duwanis.com

by duwanis on Oct 26, 2011 5:55 PM EDT up reply actions  

Depends

is it movie theater butter?

Most people use statistics the way a drunk would use a lamppost—for support, and not for illumination.
www.duwanis.com

by duwanis on Oct 26, 2011 7:02 PM EDT up reply actions  

But of course!

by MississippiBrave on Oct 27, 2011 10:22 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

They weren't as far off as some might want to think

Francoeur’s first 2 full season = .276/.315/.446 with 48 HR, 208 RBI, 64 doubles, 65 walks, .762 OPS

Heyward’s first 2 full seasons = .255/.362/.427 with 32 HR, 113 RBI, 47 doubles, 142 walks, .789 OPS

Really, Heyward’s only edge was walks.

Freeman isn’t on Heyward’s level in terms of tools, skills, or baseball IQ–but it’s fair to say Freeman has failed to meet the modest expectations in place for him - Capitol Avenue Club (May 28th, 2011)

by ATLandUNC on Oct 26, 2011 5:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

Really, Heyward’s only edge was walks.

In other words, the only thing Heyward has on Francoeur is the ability to not make an out.

My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.

by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT

by justincredubil02 on Oct 26, 2011 6:07 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

Let's add it up...

with proper weighting!!

Jeff Francoeur’s first 2 full seasons: .323 wOBA
Jason Heyward’s first 2 full seasons: .350 wOBA

Perhaps you prefer OPS+…Francoeur, 98; Heyward, 116.

-C

It’s rough to sit through these games and not have someone that can’t hit a Ball?

by cthabeerman on Oct 26, 2011 6:08 PM EDT up reply actions  

I don't do

advanced metrics. I’m from the Fredi G School of evealuting players. Lemme see the back of the baseball card.

Lead off walks usually lead to runs, unless they don't. -Joe Simpson

If you don't like the way the Atlanta Braves are playing, then you don't like baseball. -Chuck Tanner

by Chapel420 on Oct 26, 2011 6:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

You know, the problem is that enough people say stuff like this seriously that I can't be sure whether I'm reading sarcasm or not.

My buddy and I just decided that the braves would be set if we could get Matt Kemp, Jose Reyes, and Albert Pujols.

by willlinn on May 17, 2011 2:13 PM EDT

by Bronn on Oct 27, 2011 1:49 PM EDT up reply actions  

It's a half truth

I don’t know enough about advanced metrics to know what they mean or how to use them. I get WAR but that’s the only one. I watch most of the games so I rely on my eye more than anything. It’s pretty easy to tell if somone’s up there hacking away or actually trying to work the count.

Lead off walks usually lead to runs, unless they don't. -Joe Simpson

If you don't like the way the Atlanta Braves are playing, then you don't like baseball. -Chuck Tanner

by Chapel420 on Oct 27, 2011 2:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

.

So if a guy steps up to the plate and quickly fouls the first two pitches off because they looked hittable, but just swung a little off-timing, and quickly gets into an 0-2 hole, but then nurses out four balls, as well as fouling off three more pitches, was he hacking away, or working the count?

Advanced metrics are only as advanced as you make them out to be. I find that a lot of people are simply reluctant or closed-minded to even glance at the process in which FIP, WHIP, BABIP, wOBA, or even bother to know what the acronyms even stand for.

And sometimes it’s not so much as things being advanced as them being scenario-specific; if a batter has a cumulative .192 batting average, people say he sucks, but he has a .338 average with the bases loaded, it says something else, or a guy with a mediocre .312 on base percentage, but in the 8th inning on, it’s .489 with a lot of walks, it says he’s not a bad guy to have step to the plate late in games.

The information is all out there, free to anyone who wants to expand their horizons. But it’s obtuse to discount factual numbers because someone doesn’t understand them.

No wonder nobody likes you, Tuttle... everything's a (Pujols) damn debate.

by royhobbs on Oct 27, 2011 3:32 PM EDT up reply actions  

Or worse

you understand them, but it doesn’t “look right.”

Most people use statistics the way a drunk would use a lamppost—for support, and not for illumination.
www.duwanis.com

by duwanis on Oct 27, 2011 5:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

For your first question I would say working the count, but you can’t say one way or the after by just watching one at bat, more of a general trend after watching a player and you start to get sinking feeling you get when they come to the plate.

BABIP I like, didn’t know that was “advanced” seems fairly basic to me even though it’s not a bubblegum card stat. And if I try to cram all that in my brain it takes the fun away from just watching the game. Anyway we all know only 92% of statistics are true . Here’s one stat for you. Even the best players average about 2 outs every 3 at bats.

Lead off walks usually lead to runs, unless they don't. -Joe Simpson

If you don't like the way the Atlanta Braves are playing, then you don't like baseball. -Chuck Tanner

by Chapel420 on Oct 27, 2011 5:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

Not Jason Heyward. It’s more like 3 outs every 7 PAs

My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.

by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT

by justincredubil02 on Oct 27, 2011 5:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

I said ABs not PAs. A .428 OBP is pretty good, to bad his is .362. And I know H + BB + IBB/PA is not how you figure OBP, at least according to Baseball Reference.

Lead off walks usually lead to runs, unless they don't. -Joe Simpson

If you don't like the way the Atlanta Braves are playing, then you don't like baseball. -Chuck Tanner

by Chapel420 on Oct 27, 2011 6:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

That should be .572 not .428.

Lead off walks usually lead to runs, unless they don't. -Joe Simpson

If you don't like the way the Atlanta Braves are playing, then you don't like baseball. -Chuck Tanner

by Chapel420 on Oct 27, 2011 6:51 PM EDT up reply actions  

Damn. Can’t argue with the RBIs. It’s totally Jason’s fault that guys don’t get on base in front of him!

My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.

by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT

by justincredubil02 on Oct 26, 2011 6:06 PM EDT up reply actions  

Whats the point

if he’s only going to hit .218 with RISP

Lead off walks usually lead to runs, unless they don't. -Joe Simpson

If you don't like the way the Atlanta Braves are playing, then you don't like baseball. -Chuck Tanner

by Chapel420 on Oct 26, 2011 6:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

What's the point of getting on base?

Really?

BTW, his OBP with RISP was .354

My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.

by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT

by justincredubil02 on Oct 26, 2011 6:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

Thats great

But how many of the walks were with the bases loaded? Cuz that’s the only way that comes into play when talking about RBIs

Lead off walks usually lead to runs, unless they don't. -Joe Simpson

If you don't like the way the Atlanta Braves are playing, then you don't like baseball. -Chuck Tanner

by Chapel420 on Oct 26, 2011 6:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

Which is why

talking about RBIs is stupid

My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.

by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT

by justincredubil02 on Oct 26, 2011 6:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

Kind of the point

of my post is that comparing Franceour to Heyward is stupid

Lead off walks usually lead to runs, unless they don't. -Joe Simpson

If you don't like the way the Atlanta Braves are playing, then you don't like baseball. -Chuck Tanner

by Chapel420 on Oct 26, 2011 6:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

Because a walk with runners on base ends the inning?

by pbrfan on Oct 26, 2011 9:12 PM EDT up reply actions  

As if AVG matters

Here’s his career stats with RISP: .272 .409 .431 .839

My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.

by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT

by justincredubil02 on Oct 26, 2011 6:17 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yes

but I elected to only use this years stats because I don’t know what Franceour BA w/ RISP was in his first two seasons.

Lead off walks usually lead to runs, unless they don't. -Joe Simpson

If you don't like the way the Atlanta Braves are playing, then you don't like baseball. -Chuck Tanner

by Chapel420 on Oct 26, 2011 6:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

That’s pretty easy to look up.

My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.

by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT

by justincredubil02 on Oct 26, 2011 6:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

Francoeur's first two full season

I didn’t count 2005 since he only played in 70 games

.331 .379 .503 .882

Overall, good numbers.

The OBP is obviously almost exclusively based on that batting average though – which is a total opposite approach than what Heyward has.

In fact, that’s why Francoeur was unceremoniously traded – he couldn’t take a walk.

My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.

by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT

by justincredubil02 on Oct 26, 2011 6:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

Does that include the minors?

Because in the majors its .262 / .399 / .415 / .814 according to my math.

2010 RISP- 158 PA; 29BB/30K; .306/.443/.484/.927
2011 RISP- 99 PA; 14BB/14K; .218/.354/.346/.700

Lead off walks usually lead to runs, unless they don't. -Joe Simpson

If you don't like the way the Atlanta Braves are playing, then you don't like baseball. -Chuck Tanner

by Chapel420 on Oct 26, 2011 6:24 PM EDT up reply actions  

Your math

is wrong.

My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.

by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT

by justincredubil02 on Oct 26, 2011 6:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/split.cgi?id=heywaja01&year=Career&t=b

My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.

by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT

by justincredubil02 on Oct 26, 2011 6:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

But thats "Career"

which icludes the minors. That is part of his career if I’m correct.

Lead off walks usually lead to runs, unless they don't. -Joe Simpson

If you don't like the way the Atlanta Braves are playing, then you don't like baseball. -Chuck Tanner

by Chapel420 on Oct 26, 2011 6:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

Negatron, Megatron

It’s only his MLB career. His MiLB numbers are not included.

My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.

by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT

by justincredubil02 on Oct 26, 2011 6:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

That's what I call a set of marbles.

"People ask me what I do in winter when there's no baseball. I'll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring." Rogers Hornsby

by adc62 on Oct 26, 2011 6:06 PM EDT up reply actions  

Great article

Jason will dominate next year. fact.

by kwfoster on Oct 26, 2011 6:34 PM EDT reply actions  

I can't take it! This post is to rational!!!

Jason Heyward is a bum who can’t play through pain, he’s arrogant and won’t change his approach, all he does is ground out to the 2B. TRADE HIM!

by drumzalicious on Oct 26, 2011 6:37 PM EDT reply actions  

Is to rational as ? is to ?

My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.

by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT

by justincredubil02 on Oct 26, 2011 6:38 PM EDT up reply actions  

Excellent post. Unfortunately, the comments below it are worthless. It’s not that there isn’t a lot of very valid and useful information (which there is), it’s just that it’s a lot of bickering and name-calling. Some on here are just arguing for the sake of arguing.

Shit man, what the hell has gotten into some of you? We didn’t make the playoffs, but life will go on. Relax a little.

Whereas people in the South are all ignorant, uneducated rednecks, everyone in Philadelphia is very sophisticated and exceedingly intelligent. It is not known exactly how such extraordinary genes came together in this one location.
-- Unknown

by ryantex on Oct 26, 2011 10:24 PM EDT reply actions  

How DARE you.

You pompous windbag. Etc., etc.

Most people use statistics the way a drunk would use a lamppost—for support, and not for illumination.
www.duwanis.com

by duwanis on Oct 26, 2011 11:05 PM EDT up reply actions  

Call me crazy, but I didn’t see ANY name calling. In fact, the conversation here has been very tame.

Wait, I did call someone “Megatron”.

I guess that’s name-calling.

My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.

by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT

by justincredubil02 on Oct 26, 2011 11:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

Megatron is a very complimentary nickname :)

"Reach down in there...TURN THAT DAMN THING UP!" - Coach Paul Johnson

by TBuzz on Oct 27, 2011 8:54 AM EDT up reply actions  

But does he fold up into a handgun?

If not, then he isn’t worthy of the moniker.

Most people use statistics the way a drunk would use a lamppost—for support, and not for illumination.
www.duwanis.com

by duwanis on Oct 27, 2011 8:58 AM EDT up reply actions  

He does play in Detroit...

so he might want to explore the handgun idea

"Reach down in there...TURN THAT DAMN THING UP!" - Coach Paul Johnson

by TBuzz on Oct 27, 2011 9:44 AM EDT reply actions  

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