SB Nation Atlanta Editor's Pick
DON'T TRADE PRADO PETITION
by JKowalek on Oct 13, 2011 11:59 PM EDT
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OK, so I've have been completely blown away about this dump Martin Prado talk. At this time last year, Martin Prado was viewed as one of our best players and most valuable assets. Other than some of your opinions, nothing has changed. So let's take a look back at how some of this all came about.
After 2 cups of coffee with the ML team, Prado played in 78 games in 2008 as our super utility man. He posted a .320 BA while appearing mainly at 1B, 2B and 3B and a few at SS and LF. His versatility was proven and in 2009, he replaced Kelly Johnson as our everyday 2B, finishing with a .307/.358/.464 line while slotted mainly in the 2 hole.
All was the same to begin 2010, starting 2B batting 2nd. But a ways through the 2010 season, Bobby moved Prado to the lead off position in favor of the struggling Nate McLouth. He took to it very quickly and improved on his already successful season. In 66 games batting lead off, Marteeen posted a .322/.362/.521 line. He was arguably our best player that season and was beloved by TC members and Braves fans all over.A healthy Prado in the playoffs and a pinch hitter Brooks Conrad on the bench could have led to a different outcome. (Not a knock on Brooks, he's a bat and was forced into a role that just isn't a good fit for what he brings to the team)
Once Dan Uggla was acquired, the questions began, would Prado or Uggla make the move from 2B to LF. Freddi and Co. decided it would be Prado to be shifted, and while it wasn't ideal for him, he easily accepted. (don't think the LF time in winter ball played into it much, nor can it be counted on as "experience") Next came the waterfall of admiration from players, coaches, management and fans. Everyone was raving about his team first mentality, players kept mentioning how great of shape he showed up in, DOB constantly had pics and tweets of how he was first guy in and last guy out during the spring.
So the 2011 season comes around and Prado is still batting 1st, but already adapting to a change to LF. 50 games in, Prado's numbers dipped a bit from 2010 but he was still batting.286/.326/.432 and was easily our best lead off option. Again, because of issues with McCouth, Schafer was called up and immediately entrenched in the lead off spot. With Heyward's struggling, Prado was the best fit for batting 2nd, a place he had been very familiar with in recent years. An injury then help Prado out for most of June and half of July. He returned to the 2 hole and it stayed the same after we traded for Bourn. So after he had gotten accustomed to batting lead off, he was put back to 2nd for most of 2011. But this wasn't the same 2 hole he had in 2009 and early 2010. This time he had speed in front of him. So, not only was he was asked to revert back to the approach of a #2 hitter after succeeding at lead off, but altering that approach as well to allow Schafer and Bourn to do their thing on the base paths. Prado finished the year with a .260/.302/.385 mark.
So in 2010 Prado was asked to add to his success as a lead off hitter but this time as a LF. But don't forget, you're Chipper's replacement at 3B, where he logged 38 games. Then asked to switch his plate approach to a 2 hitter with speed on in front. He was also dealing with an injury. Oh, and one more thing, he had the lowest BABIP of his career, by far.
2008 - .357 2009 - .331 2010 - .335 2011 - .266
To me, Prado's career has been defined by 2 things that go hand in hand, one positive and one negative. Versatility and change. The bright side, we are in position to fully utilize the positive and completely cancel the negative.
Prado has 2 arbs years left and should see a raise to around 5-6 mil next season. FW can handle it any way he wants, but at some point, Prado should be extended. And anyone reading this that doesn't think Prado will sign for multiple years at an affordable, team friendly salary, you're crazy. 4-5 years for 5-6 per seems like a deal VERY likely agreed upon by both sides to me.
Chipper will be back next year after turning 40 in April. In my rosterbation world, a pitcher should be moved for a corner OF. This would leave Prado as our super utility man. But more super than that. Chipper is going to need a day or two off a week, plus is monthly series off and most likely an injury or two. Prado can get a day in each week at LF, giving (Swisher) a rest or moving (Swisher) to RF giving JHey a day. It also couldn't hurt to give Uggs and FF a day once an a while. And we know the injury bug will show up somewhere and before you know it Prado has 100-115 games in 2012 and the team as a whole is much more rested down the stretch.
2012 will be Chipper's final season and Prado is waiting. He is the best and most reliable option to replace Chip. He will successfully hold the hot corner down for many years and, as I said, for a reasonable cost. Theres already talk about Joey T being shifted to the OF. Everyone has something good to say about Salcedo but they also say the same word, raw. It doesn't matter what improvements he makes, he isn't going to be ready until atleast 2014. Drury still has alot of question marks and who's left, Leonard? And these are all prospects, nothing is guaranteed. Prado is proven. He may not compete for the batting title every year like he did in 2010, but he has Placido Polanco written all over him. And while his power may not be ideal for 3B, he's not too far off. Plus we'll have plenty of pop in the line up for years to come. He isn't the greatest fielder but far from a weak spot. He's an above average player where ever we stick him and his very respected in this clubhouse. He never lacks in hustle and hard work and has proven he is a "team" guy. His value to this team is worth much more than anything he would be signed for through arb or extension. AND this is probably the lowest return he'd bring in the trade market in the last three seasons. So we trade him?
None of us know if FW and Co. have even thought about trading Prado. But it's been a hot topic here. So, please, those of you TC'ers that think Martin Prado SHOULD NOT BE TRADED, sign here x.................................
This FanPost does not express the views or opinions of Talking Chop.
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Agreed
You make many valid arguments. However we have seen Prado’s numbers steadily decline over the last three years which you argue is due to the constant change in position and batting order. Not to mention the oblique injury and staph infection. But using that same line of logic wouldn’t his numbers continue to regress when again moved to a new position of super utility and an ever changing spot in the batting order?
At the age of six I wanted to be a chef. At seven I wanted to be Napoleon. My ambition has been steadily growing ever since. -Salvador Dali
by Kushagi on Oct 14, 2011 12:12 AM EDT via mobile reply actions
With his increase in games each season, his WAR went from 1.3(08) 3.2(09) 4.4(10)
And he might not perform at his highest level next season, but would pot great numbers for a utility guy shifting around and the following year tell him he is the 3B. No change from there on.
Spring Training is the greatest thing that can't end soon enough
His numbers were steadily excellent with no significant “decline” whatsoever from his breakthrough in 2008 through 2010.
Last year, the numbers were dramatically impacted by a major, highly debilitating staph infection illness that literally had him in bed on maximum antibiotics for weeks. No professional athlete is going be able to quickly bounce back to peak performance after an illness of that severity.
To me.....
It depends on what we can get for him. The thing is we now have a true lead-off hitter that can steal bases and cause pitchers to rush and make mistakes. So we need Prado to be a more patient at the plate. Can Prado do this? I don’t know. He breaks even in LF defensively, but we need more offense than he gave us this season.
Great post man!
I agree with everything you stated. If the braves lost Prado it would hurt this team badly. Prado is a very good player and i think his best yrs are still to come. There is no doubt in my mind as hard as he works and as bad as he wants to win, he will rebound from a off year. Personally i think the injury really hurt his season, he can hit any where in the lineup so that really is not the problem. Hopefully with Bourn in for a full season, the braves can finally have a very solid one two punch atop of the lineup. I hope the braves lock up Prado and Bourn long term. As of Prado in my mind he is still one of the best players on this team. Hopefully he rebounds, because i don’t want to lose another pretty damn good player to another team. Must i say people around here tend to give up on players pretty quick.
prado means more to the team than his numbers
he is the hardest working soul of the team
and yeah he has had great numbers
Online Petitions
THEY ALWAYS WORK.
I love Odarp explicitly, but if FW thinks he can improve the team by moving him, he will.
Most people use statistics the way a drunk would use a lamppost—for support, and not for illumination.
www.duwanis.com
While not in the untouchable category, all the rosterbatory chatter that he should be dealt for Tom, Dick, or Harry is just silly. This is so despite the fact that Wren is certainly obligated to consider any given trade proposal on its merits and pull the trigger if it is determined to be in the best interests of the team. My opinion is that Marteeen is a huge asset, the GM clearly recognizes him as such, and the chances of him going elsewhere,
regardless of any highly influential petitions on TC,
are slim.
Agreed
with our budget I’d be surprised if we could even pull in a better LFer to make Prado our super-utility. But, Wren has worked magic before, so I’ll leave all that up to him. :)
Most people use statistics the way a drunk would use a lamppost—for support, and not for illumination.
www.duwanis.com
Prado shoudl stay!
Great post.
Prado rocks.
Keep him to replace the old man (but still productive man) at 3B after this season.
Prado rocks.
Prado being traded doesn't bother me...
…as long as we get the proper return and a guy who is a better fit for the team. Needing a guy who can play left and fill in for Chipper from time to time, I don’t see who that could, be, but if the right trade was out there, I could understand it.
What drives me nuts is the “bench Prado” talk under the guise of using him as a “super utility” guy with the idea of bringing in a new left fielder—-who in most realistic suggestions (of guys we could actually get in trade or afford in free agency) are not as good players as Prado. Prado already is starting left fielder/super utlity guy—-he plays left unless needed to play elsewhere. To make him a “super utility” guy just means you think he should only play 4-5 days a week instead of 6-7. I find it hard to imagine that we would have better players than Prado on our roster at all of the positions he plays, making the idea of turning him into a super utility guy just saying that you want him on the bench 1-2 days a week. That idea I do not understand at all.
Nice post.
I’m not pro trading Odarp. I’m pro acquiring a legit LF bat and moving Prado to super utility. I know that’s not the most favorite idea of everyone but this would allow us to have an everyday LFer while Prado can play a day at every other position, allowing better rest and health for our other players – while not losing production at those spots. Then when Chipper needs multiple days off or is injured we can have a legit fill in at 3B.
Moving Prado to super utility will not make us a worse team (unless we plug in a platoon in LF again) because we will be able to instantly upgrade our depth/bench. Brooks has been great and all, but its time to move on from him. Prado is also one of those few players that actually perform well while not playing the same position daily. I don’t advocate this move if we can’t acquire a solid LF bat to replace Prado, otherwise just let Prado stay in LF for another year.
The Pirates are not going to trade Andrew McCutchen - please stop suggesting this.
But since we won't get a LF who is better...
…having an “every day leftfielder” with Prado sitting two days a week would not make us a better team.
If that’s the case, like I said, let Prado play LF. I never said we should have an everyday LF that is worse than Prado.
I believe most of our hitting problems were byproducts of our awful hitting coach. It wouldn’t surprise me to see Prado have his babip jump back up and AGon (if he returns) put up slightly better offensive numbers.
The Pirates are not going to trade Andrew McCutchen - please stop suggesting this.
Agree 100%
but im trying to sign the dotted line.. and i can´t…
the exponent in the equation is a matter of preference and "fit" it can vary depending on what the user believes to yield the curve that best predicts a team’s ability to win games.
by Ivan the Great on May 20, 2011 12:31 PM VET
Nice post
4 years for 24-28M with maybe an option seems pretty fair for both sides.
For Prado?
I love the guys work ethic, but I wouldbn’t pay him that much. The Braves would regret that. Yunel just got 2 years and 10 mil with an option for a 3rd. That would be the model for extending Prado, I would think.
Maybe this will help... somebody send this to Frank?
(with apologies to gondee)
"Forget Roy Halladay or Clayton Kershaw or Cliff Lee, the NL Cy Young Award should go to O’Ventrel." - David Schoenfield, ESPN.com, 8/19/11
Last time this made the rounds we ended up with Melky Cabrera starting in LF.
Q: If not us, who? If not now, when? A: The Batman. And "when you least expect it."
…and some wet-behind-the-ears kids named Vizcaino.
"Forget Roy Halladay or Clayton Kershaw or Cliff Lee, the NL Cy Young Award should go to O’Ventrel." - David Schoenfield, ESPN.com, 8/19/11
Kids?
We could have made that deal without Melky being involved at all, we could have got someone else, or, heck, just released Melky the next day rather than giving him $3.1 MM to produce -1 WAR.
Q: If not us, who? If not now, when? A: The Batman. And "when you least expect it."
I had such high hopes for him too. He had all the things you could want in someone to develop or eventually click – except for a low body fat percentage, I guess.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Oct 18, 2011 12:46 AM EDT up reply actions
LOBster-rich diets have that effect on a player.
Most people use statistics the way a drunk would use a lamppost—for support, and not for illumination.
www.duwanis.com
Yes, “kidS” was a typo.
"Forget Roy Halladay or Clayton Kershaw or Cliff Lee, the NL Cy Young Award should go to O’Ventrel." - David Schoenfield, ESPN.com, 8/19/11
Agreed.
Don’t trade Prado. Not sure about extending him, though. Let’s see if he can bounce back next year and stay healthy all year.
Why would the Braves trade their team MVP? Also who else would bat second? Everyone knows you need a guy who can bunt in that spot. Baseball 101.
who I hope works on his weight and conditioning this off-season.
Maybe it was just my imagination but late in the year – after coming back from the oblique strain and being stuck through game 162 in a truly horrible slump – he looked very heavy and very fatigued to me.
I can't tell if this is sarcasm or not.
My buddy and I just decided that the braves would be set if we could get Matt Kemp, Jose Reyes, and Albert Pujols.
by willlinn on May 17, 2011 2:13 PM EDT
Signed
Do not trade Prado. He is the most versatile, hard working player on the team that normally hits .300 right handed. We would be fools to trade him because of one down year while playing a position that he has not played with regularity.
All while Fredi is surrounded by a bunch of orangutans, trying to teach them how to bunt the rocks and coconuts that angry 300 lb gorillas are throwing at them,
by royhobbs on Jul 29, 2011 11:20 AM PDT
Strong Side / Weak Side: Chipper Jones
http://www.onionsportsnetwork.com/articles/chipper-jones,8431/
No Trado da Prado
Braves.
Falcons.
Gamecocks.
Trade him????
We should clone him…….Pretty sure that the Phillies would trade Palanco plus something for Prado in a heartbeat.
If FW can master the art of cloning
I’d be open to dealing 1 of them
Spring Training is the greatest thing that can't end soon enough
At this time last year, Martin Prado was viewed as one of our best players and most valuable assets. Other than some of your opinions, nothing has changed
Nothing other than our opinions and the following:
2008: .320 .377 .461 .838
2009: .307 .358 .464 .822
2010: .307 .350 .459 .809
2011: .260 .302 .385 .687
Marint Prado has never been the MVP of this team. He has never been one of the top 3 players on the team. He has never been the best OFer on the team. He’s never been the best 2B on the team. He’s never been the best 3B on the team.
He has never been the best player at any position that he has played.
What he has been is a nice story about a guy who seems to work hard and do what’s best for the team – that is an admirable quality, but it does not win championships.
Martin Prado was a total offensive liability this past season. He was the 2nd worst hitter on the team, behind Alex Gonzalez.
Trading him now would be a fantastic idea, as Prado is one of those player’s who’s offensive production is almost 100% dependent on his BABIP. His inability to take a walk does not project well for future offensive value.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Oct 14, 2011 8:46 PM EDT reply actions
I'd put him ahead of Heyward as far as this past season
Spring Training is the greatest thing that can't end soon enough
Yeah, I don't know why
I mean, he had a lower OBP and lower SLG, the two most important components of hitter value. He didn’t make up for with his extra .033 of batting average.
My buddy and I just decided that the braves would be set if we could get Matt Kemp, Jose Reyes, and Albert Pujols.
by willlinn on May 17, 2011 2:13 PM EDT
His inferior defense didn’t help his case either.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Oct 15, 2011 2:18 PM EDT up reply actions
He’s never been the best 2B on the team…He has never been the best player at any position that he has played.
Martin Prado: 2010 All-Star at second base.
You don’t like him because he doesn’t walk enough for your impossible standards, or doesn’t hit teh dingerz often enough and maybe because he’s not a Gold Glover. He’s still an awesome player that had ONE down year. No, he’s not a superstar and never will be. He IS a hardworking, team-first, versatile, model of consistency when healthy. For most of 2011 he was not healthy. The staph infection really took its toll on him. But you keep on thinking that a walk is more valuable than a hit and that stats are the only thing that matters when evaluating a player. Your biases for or against certain players, who may or may not live up to your standards, tend to cloud your judgement. Good day, sir.
Yeah, well, you know, that's just, like, uh, your opinion, man. -The Dude
Very well said.
I’m unaware of any sabermetric recognition whatsoever of intangible, “chemistry” factors, like the heart, the determination, the positive attitude, and being a role model for consistent effort and hard work that Prado brings to our team. Indeed, the stat head crowd typically ridicules the same as wholly inconsequential or even nonexistent, which based on my life experiences is well beyond stupid.
Can you name the last WS won by a team of players with heart, chemistry, determination and positive attitudes, but no talent?
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Oct 15, 2011 12:05 PM EDT up reply actions
Can you name the last WS won by a team composed of all All-Stars?
We have Mac, Uggs, Chip, Bourn and hopeful progression from FF and Heyward. Each team needs a few Prado’s do be a grinder.
Spring Training is the greatest thing that can't end soon enough
The Yankees
The Phillies
The Red Sox
The Marlins
In fact, most WS champions have multiple All-Stars on their rosters with few exceptions
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Oct 15, 2011 4:29 PM EDT up reply actions
Are we the Yankees, Phillies and Red Sox?
You’re saying we should and, more importantly, COULD operate as they do?
Spring Training is the greatest thing that can't end soon enough
I’m saying that heart, grit, good clubhouse pixie dust and drinking beer on the weekends with your teamates doesn’t win World Series games.
This isn’t football or basketball where things like chemistry matter. This is baseball. At the end of the day, it boils down to what each individual player on his own, did against another individual player.
The success of the entire team rests on the skill of the 1 guy at the plate.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Oct 15, 2011 5:49 PM EDT up reply actions
So everything being said about the Red Sox is complete bull shit?
That Francona saying he “lost the clubhouse” and the team lacked chemistry is a bluff?
That Gonzalez, Crawford, Pedria, Ortiz, Ellsbury and Youk weren’t “All-Star” enough to win their individual battles? I know some of them had down years, but they’re proven enough to be counted on to win an AB when its important.
Or do they need more All -Stars to compete?
Spring Training is the greatest thing that can't end soon enough
The Red Sox failed because of their pitching. It really is that simple.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Oct 15, 2011 8:13 PM EDT up reply actions
We also have multiple All-Stars
but none of them teams ran 8 all-stars on the field every game. They had the glue guys, the hustle guys, the garbage guys, locker room guys. Whatever sport you want there is a term for those kind of players. And there is a spot for those types of players on each team.
Spring Training is the greatest thing that can't end soon enough
I’ve already said that Prado’s character is to be admired. However, it does not win championships.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Oct 15, 2011 5:49 PM EDT up reply actions
In 92, 93, 95-00
The Braves had 20 All-Stars from the position players. That’s a good number especially when those rosters weren’t as expended and laughable as they are now. But that only translated to 1 WS. And surprisingly enough, in 95, the Braves only sent on position player, McGriff, to the All-Star game. Surely pitching wasn’t the problem.
Position Players only:
The 2011 Braves – 2 All-Stars
The 2010 Giants – 0 All-Stars
The 2009 Yankees – 2 All-Stars
The 2008 Phillies – 1 All-Star
The 2007 Red Sox – 3 All-Stars
The 2006 Cardinals – 3 All-Stars
The 2005 White Sox – 2 All-Stars
The 2004 Red Sox – 2 All-Stars
The 2003 Marlins – 2 All-Stars
The 2002 Angels – 1 All-Star
The 2001 DBacks – 1 All-Star
Spring Training is the greatest thing that can't end soon enough
Those numbers are extremely inaccurate. You need look further than the 2009 Yankees for proof. They have an AS at nearly every position. The only two I’m not sure about are Swisher and Melky.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Oct 15, 2011 8:14 PM EDT up reply actions
*look NO further
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Oct 15, 2011 8:20 PM EDT up reply actions
But, if you are strictly asking the last team comprised of All Stars to win the WS – the 2009 Yankees.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Oct 15, 2011 4:30 PM EDT up reply actions
Swisher, Damon, Gardner, Melky?
All played over 100 games
Spring Training is the greatest thing that can't end soon enough
Melky Cabrera was the only player to OPS under .800 on that team – and he OPS’d .750.
They didn’t win because they had role players. They won because they had GOOD players.
Here’s that lineup:
Posada – .285 .363 .522 .885
Teixieia – .292 .383 .565 .948
Cano – .320 .352 .520 .871
Jeter – .334 .406 .465 .871
A-Rod – .286 .402 .532 .933
Damon – .282 .365 .489 .854
Cabrera – .274 .336 .416 .752
Swisher – .249 .371 .498 .869
Matsui – .274 .367 .509 .876
That’s why they won a WS.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Oct 15, 2011 5:55 PM EDT up reply actions
Interesting Note
Look at the OBPs compared to the AVGs.
Every single player on that team could take a walk.
But yeah, I over-value that.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Oct 15, 2011 5:56 PM EDT up reply actions
You're not wrong for overvaluing that
Walks are VERY important. But you can’t expect every player on a team to have a BB% > 8.5 and an OBP > .365
Spring Training is the greatest thing that can't end soon enough
Could you imagine if a NL team had 8 guys that could have an OBP of .365+ all in the same season, and AL if teams could have 9 guys that could do that? That would be pretty crazy for that to happen nowadays. All you need is some pitching and you could make some noise. Obviously, I know you can’t expect it, but would be pretty awesome to see for a full year.
braves#1
Correct. But I can expect every player on the team to have an OBP over .310 and even closer to .330.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Oct 15, 2011 8:15 PM EDT up reply actions
the only positive thing said
about Melky when we acquired him and during his time spent was “clubhouse” guy…. He’s not a “good” player, he’s a needed role player.
You think Swisher is a good player cause he takes BB’s and gets on base. OK so Prado doesn’t take BB’s at a good rate. But in 08, 09 and 10 his OBP was .377, .358 and .350. He just got on by getting hits. But when your BABIP drops 80 points, you’re not going to get on as much. And don’t say his prior FOUR YEARS on consistently high rates was an accident and this year’s showed his true ability. He has the ability to put balls where people aren’t, especially in the IF.
Spring Training is the greatest thing that can't end soon enough
And that’s not an ability that ages well, or that predicts future success.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Oct 15, 2011 8:16 PM EDT up reply actions
Chipper Jones, Ichiro Suzuki, and Todd Helton might disagree
In fact, the art of place hitting singles is one of the few abilities that does age well
All while Fredi is surrounded by a bunch of orangutans, trying to teach them how to bunt the rocks and coconuts that angry 300 lb gorillas are throwing at them,
by royhobbs on Jul 29, 2011 11:20 AM PDT
Strong Side / Weak Side: Chipper Jones
http://www.onionsportsnetwork.com/articles/chipper-jones,8431/
by Santaklose11 on Oct 17, 2011 4:34 PM EDT up reply actions
Those guys aren’t guys that “hit singles”.
They are all fantastic OBP guys who can still hit gappers and HRs. In fact, none of them are Prado-like hitters.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Oct 17, 2011 4:45 PM EDT up reply actions
Actually
Ichiro’s offensive value is very closely tied to his ability to hit for a high average. This was his first year hitting below .310, and he was quite useless at the plate.
Follow me on Twitter at @JakeHumphrey91
by Jake Humphrey on Oct 17, 2011 6:19 PM EDT up reply actions
True. Ichiro doesn’t have as good of a walk rate as the other guys listed, however, he has ridiculous speed that enables him to have quite a few infield singles – again, not really the same kind of hitter as Prado.
Additionally, I don’t think I’ve ever seen anyone that can place a ball like Ichiro can – except for maybe Tony Gwynn.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Oct 17, 2011 7:06 PM EDT up reply actions
Ichiro is just a very unique player in general
A slap hitter that, generally, makes it work.
My buddy and I just decided that the braves would be set if we could get Matt Kemp, Jose Reyes, and Albert Pujols.
by willlinn on May 17, 2011 2:13 PM EDT
The Braves under Bobby Cox were built around chemistry, positive good attitudes, and playing the game the right way, every day. It worked out pretty well with a 14 year run that may never be matched in the history of professional sports. So, I call BULLSHIT.
Furthermore, if you are saying Martin Prado is a no talent scrub, then that is (not surprisingly) completely over-the-top ridiculous. In his first 346 G in MLB, from 2008 -2010, with no talent, how exactly do you explain this line: .309/.357/.461/.818?
The Braves under Bobby Cox were built around chemistry, positive good attitudes, and playing the game the right way, every day.
That’s just not true. The Braves under Bobby Cox were built around pitching.
I can name countless bad attitude guys that played on those teams.
Furthermore, if you are saying Martin Prado is a no talent scrub
Show me once where I said that. In fact, show me once where I said he was a bad player.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Oct 15, 2011 8:18 PM EDT up reply actions
An excellent example is Yunel, who had a bad attitude and was summarily dumped.
Really, it was obvious that Bobby emphasized a cohensive team attitude and the intangibles that you so love to ridicule, but you are just very simply not honest enough to admit it. And that emphasis was in no way to the to the exclusion of having excellent pitching or excellent hitting, but I guess you want to argue that I somehow implied something to the contrary, which is the type of stupid arguing about non-issues that you really should stop.
Way to dodge, distract, and set up strawmen to avoid answering the question:
In his first 346 G in MLB, from 2008 -2010, with no talent, how exactly do you explain this line: .309/.357/.461/.818?
And that was, of course, precisely your term, “no talent,” and it was in the context of a continuation of the blowharding on why:
Trading him now would be a fantastic idea …
come on fandave. Prado can do no right, and KJ can do no wrong. If it was up to Justin we would have KJ in LF right now and Prado gone. Everyone knows Justin is pro KJ and anti Prado. You can argue with this guy until you are blue in the face, won’t change anything…
braves#1
I really do not...
Like piling on,Fandave but you are so right. After your comment about chemistry , et al a false choice was given. Do teams with no talent ,but those intangibles win WS? The answer to that is clearly no. Correct me if I am wrong but that is not what you said , though it was framed that way.Like you, I came away with Martin Prado has no talent , and the Braves couldn’t win with him. Hasn’t Alex Gonzalez been on a team that won a WS? How many WS has Alex Rodriquez won? Teams with the most talent do not always win the WS,good at bats are important, taking walks are important,and the intangibles are also important. Prado was in my mind the best player the Braves had in 2010 .if there are those who are so knowledgeable that they see a slow and steady decline in him because he was slowed by a staph infection and had a poor month plus after,then so be it. Just remember they have the base on balls to prove them right.
by mikie baseball on Oct 16, 2011 3:52 PM EDT up reply actions
If you think Prado was the best player on the Braves in 2010, then I just don’t know what to say anymore.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Oct 16, 2011 4:22 PM EDT up reply actions
Like Fandave....
I really do not want to reply to your posts. I have no desire to even provide you with the links ,but it was Bobby Cox who said that Prado was his last ever team MVP. I resent your implication that I am ignorant and stand alone in my opinion. I forget that you are far more a baseball expert than the future Hall of Fame manager. frankly,you, no YOU. Not knowing what more to say would be a blessing..To quote a wonderful post above, good day sir.
by mikie baseball on Oct 16, 2011 5:10 PM EDT up reply actions
Lol.
I love how you just said “I’m not going to support what I’m about to say, but I’m going to say it anyway.”
Please, show me where Cox said Prado was his team MVP.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Oct 16, 2011 5:16 PM EDT up reply actions
Only if you promise ....
Never to reply to one of my posts
by mikie baseball on Oct 16, 2011 6:12 PM EDT up reply actions
As long as they aren’t ridiculous…
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Oct 16, 2011 6:40 PM EDT up reply actions
Wait, did I just break the promise?
How do I answer this? If I reply, I break my promise…
/head explodes.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Oct 16, 2011 6:41 PM EDT up reply actions
It's not unreasonable...
He’s third in WAR for the offense, and WAR can have quite a few accuracy issues on any given season (typically, +/- 0.5, but there are extreme cases). As such, that leaves only Heyward, McCann and Prado as the eligible candidates.
I’m not saying he was the MVP, but it’s a debatable conclusion, sabermetrically.
-C
It’s rough to sit through these games and not have someone that can’t hit a Ball?
I think Chipper is the one guy we couldn’t do without in 2010. While he had a slow start to the season, by the time he got hurt, he was raking like he was in the 2nd half of this season.
I think we could have absorbed the loss of Prado with Infante – who wasn’t much, if at all, worse than Prado that season, and probably better defensively at 2B.
But losing Chipper was crucial. Obviously, we couldn’t afford to lose BOTH, but I think the loss of Chipper hurt more than the loss of Prado, simply because the absence of Chipper is what made Prado valuable. With Chipper playing every day, Prado isn’t as crucial.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Oct 17, 2011 4:26 PM EDT up reply actions
Prado did have a great great year in 2010. If he can be healthy and produce his 2010 line in 2012, and Fredi would actually bat him 6th, then we have a damn good LF for 2012.
braves#1
He did have a great 2010 – but it wasn’t the best performance on the team.
And I agree that Prado does not need to hit 2nd. If he can bounce back to 2010 form, it wouldn’t hurt much, but in 2011, it killed our offense.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Oct 16, 2011 5:16 PM EDT up reply actions
Seriously?
If he can bounce back to 2010 form, it wouldn’t hurt much, but in 2011, [Prado] killed our offense.
If he can bounce back to 2010 form it wouldn’t hurt much? It wouldn’t hurt at all. It would be very beneficial to the team. Please stop looking down on him for being a contact hitter and not a slugger with a monstrous OBP. No, he won’t put up ideal numbers from a LF; but Martin Prado is still an above average player, regardless of position.
Back to the “in 2011, [Prado] killed our offense” quote. It was a team effort that resulted in an abysmal 2011 offense. Not any one player. Although Sea Bass did his best to take that distinction. Position by position; Catcher: no production down the stretch, 1B: mostly consistent but tailed off some down the stretch, 2B: half a season of production, SS: black hole, 3B: hot and cold, LF: less than desirable, CF: needed Bourn for the full season, RF: hardly anything all year.
So yeah, Prado was the sole reason. Freddie was about the only one who never disappeared for large stretches of time. You can’t pin it all on Prado. It was a group effort
Yeah, well, you know, that's just, like, uh, your opinion, man. -The Dude
I don’t think I ever blamed Prado for our offensive collapse…
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Oct 16, 2011 8:32 PM EDT up reply actions
And I agree that Prado does not need to hit 2nd. If he can bounce back to 2010 form, it wouldn’t hurt much, but in 2011, it killed our offense.
You didn’t say it was the cause of the collapse. You said he was the reason for the horrible offense in 2011.
Yeah, well, you know, that's just, like, uh, your opinion, man. -The Dude
That’s putting words in my mouth that never came out.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Oct 17, 2011 9:21 AM EDT up reply actions
Your entire post (minus your sig)...
He did have a great 2010 – but it wasn’t the best performance on the team.
And I agree that Prado does not need to hit 2nd. If he can bounce back to 2010 form, it wouldn’t hurt much, but in 2011, it killed our offense.
by justincredubil02 on Oct 16, 2011 5:16 PM EDT up reply actions
You’re not saying he killed our offense in 2011 when you used the words, “killed our offense”? That’s how it came across, that you think he was the reason for our offensive woes in 2011.
Yeah, well, you know, that's just, like, uh, your opinion, man. -The Dude
I don’t think Justin meant Prado by himself killed our offense, he helped certainly, along with others. But, he did word it badly, and I even thought at first he meant solely Prado. I will give Justin the benefit of the doubt on this one, but when you word it like he did, he has to expect to get called out for it too…
braves#1
I mean, I really meant it that way. Hitting Prado 2nd killed our offense. It wasn’t the reason for our offensive collapse, but it hurt pretty badly.
Obviously, Prado hitting 2nd had nothing to do with McCann or Freeman’s slide late, but having a guy with a .303 OBP hitting 2nd is disastrous. Of course, it’s not his fault he hit there, so I’m not blaming him for that.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Oct 18, 2011 12:44 AM EDT up reply actions
Saying Prado hitting 2nd killed our offense and saying that he was the reason for our collapse are two completely different things.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Oct 18, 2011 12:43 AM EDT up reply actions
I never accused you of saying Prado was the reason for the collapse.
I was calling you out on saying that Prado killed our entire offense in 2011 and it’s just not true. My point is, that it was a team effort and no one player should be blamed. Prado had a bad year, by his standards, and so did a number of other Braves. You can’t put all the blame on him when nearly the entire lineup underperformed. Blame Larry Parrish if you need to throw blame at someone!
Yeah, well, you know, that's just, like, uh, your opinion, man. -The Dude
I didn’t put the blame on him. In fact, I specifically said that it wasn’t his fault that his .300-ish OBP continued to be trouted out in the 2 spot.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Oct 18, 2011 12:19 PM EDT up reply actions
You're blaming him, but not blaming him?
If he can bounce back to 2010 form, it wouldn’t hurt much, but in 2011, it killed our offense.
by justincredubil02 on Oct 16, 2011 5:16 PM EDT
I mean, I really meant it that way. Hitting Prado 2nd killed our offense.
by justincredubil02 on Oct 18, 2011 12:44 AM EDT
Yeah, well, you know, that's just, like, uh, your opinion, man. -The Dude
There’s plenty of blame to go around.
A .303 OBP isn’t terrible (ok, it is, but not AS terrible) in the 8th spot.
A .303 OBP kills an offense in the 2-spot.
It wasn’t Prado’s fault that Fredi is a terrible manager.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Oct 19, 2011 1:24 AM EDT up reply actions
Fredi isn't a terrible manager, per se
He’s just terrible at making baseball related decisions. He’s a great people person; for whatever that’s worth.
/hair splitting, commenced
Yeah, well, you know, that's just, like, uh, your opinion, man. -The Dude
lol
Custer wasn’t a terrible general. He was just terrible making battlefield related decisions.
"People ask me what I do in winter when there's no baseball. I'll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring." Rogers Hornsby
Winnar!
Nicely done, good sir.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Oct 19, 2011 3:34 PM EDT up reply actions
It doesn't even matter anymore...
Go Tar Heels!!!
Yeah, well, you know, that's just, like, uh, your opinion, man. -The Dude
Cosigned.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Oct 19, 2011 1:25 AM EDT up reply actions
I’m not anti-Prado by any means.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Oct 16, 2011 12:02 AM EDT up reply actions
So, because I don’t think he’s the MVP of the team, or because I don’t think his inability to take a walk is a good thing, or because I don’t think his hustle and good-guy mentality make us a championship team, somehow that means that I am anit-Prado?
Do you honestly think I root for him to fail? I don’t even root for Alex Gonzalez to fail, and I am 100% anti-Alex Gonzalez.
Prado is a good baseball player with a specific role on this team – everyday LF should not be that role. #2 hitter should not be that role.
If other teams are willing to pay us for Prado’s ability to hit for a higher average, as shown in the past years, not this recent year – then I say go for it. Prado is by no means an untradeable piece of this team, and should in no way be considered untouchable or a core player.
If that makes me “anti Prado” then so be it. I am “pro winning”. Part of winning means fielding the best team possible, and quite frankly, we have huge offensive holes at SS and LF.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Oct 16, 2011 12:21 AM EDT up reply actions
maybe anti prado was a strong word. I don’t believe you think much of him though, put it that way.
I agree he isn’t a #2 hitter, he should be hitting 6th or so.
I don’t believe he is an untouchable asset either, very few on this team are that, actually if it was up to me, no soul person would be untouchable on this team. Doesn’t mean I would trade them, but I would always if the price is deemed efficient. I think we would be selling low on Prado right now if we traded him, I believe a lot of things happened this year that led him to struggle like he did. I don’t believe it is a fantastic idea at all to deal him, don’t see us getting equal value back.
I see that you said, “we have huge offensive holes at SS and LF” but yet didn’t say anything about RF. Obviously, nobody is saying Heyward is done or anything like that, but seems like in your book he is getting a pass and Prado isn’t. I think a lot of things went wrong with Heyward(injuries, sophomore slump, etc.) and I think he will rebound. I also think a lot of things went wrong with Prado and I think he will rebound too. You give Heyward a pass but not Prado, WHY???
braves#1
Mainly, because Heyward was 21-22 years old this season and in only his 2nd full season in the majors – and he can take a walk.
Prado is in his 5th or 6th season in the majors, and his problem was that his BABIP fell due to his dramatic decrease in his LD%.
That, to me, is a warning sign of something. It’s not like he has a good approach at the plate, and can be patient and work his way out of his slump.
Finally, Heyward, once given his playing time back, performed much better – indicating that he was on his way out of his slump.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Oct 16, 2011 1:10 AM EDT up reply actions
You basically punish Prado for not taking walks. Heyward will walk more and will be the better overall player, I think we can agree on this. You can’t punish Prado for doing good from 2008-2010 and then a off year(multiple reasons caused it) and go after him cause he doesn’t take walks. Ok, so he won’t be a .380+ OBP guy, ok so what? He was a valuable player from 2008-2010, and if he can stay healthy and produce his 2010 season he will again be a very valuable player that won’t have a .380+ OBP. And there is nothing at all wrong with that.
I said what I wanted to say, don’t expect you to agree or anything. I know how you feel about Prado, you know how I feel about him. It is what it is. You won’t change my mind and I won’t change your mind about it.
braves#1
I’m not “punishing” Prado by saying that he is not an untouchable player on the team.
In fact, Prado may be one of the most valuable trade pieces that we possess. We would be fools to not trade him, if it meant upgrading in LF.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Oct 16, 2011 1:21 PM EDT up reply actions
If you read a single thing I said, you would realize that I didn’t say to make him untouchable, I even said nobody on the team to me is untouchable. I guess you didn’t read what all that I was saying, otherwise you would know when I say you are “punishing” Prado, it isn’t towards you saying Prado shouldn’t be untouchable. I didn’t even want to get into this with you cause I know how you are, especially about Prado, this is over.
braves#1
This whole thread is about making him untouchable.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Oct 16, 2011 4:23 PM EDT up reply actions
I wasn’t saying shit about you cause of the untouchable part. You don’t just spout crap about Prado in THIS thread, you do it on most threads when Prado name is brought up. Look, I don’t want to argue with you, I know how you are and 90% of TC knows how you are. I got into this cause I said you are anti prado, ok maybe it was a strong word. But, you obviously don’t think much of Prado. I’m done arguing with you, arguing about Prado with you is like pulling teeth. No matter what you say to anyone, you aren’t going to change peoples opinions on him if they like him, just the way it is ;)
braves#1
No I don’t.
I love Prado – for what he is. I don’t pretend he is anything else. I don’t get all googly-eyed over the fact that he willingly changed positions, nor do I get overly excited and anoint him as our best player. He is a good baseball player. Nothing more. Nothing less.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Oct 16, 2011 5:18 PM EDT up reply actions
That was my term? Then why did you quote yourself? I’ve never once said that Prado had “no talent”.
And as for the Yunel thing – it is a perfect example of MY argument, in that they kept him for 4 years, and didn’t dump him until he wasn’t producing.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Oct 16, 2011 12:01 AM EDT up reply actions
Can you name the last WS won by a team of players with heart, chemistry, determination and positive attitudes, but no talent?
That seems like you are insinuating that Martin falls under the category of “heart, chemistry, etc but no talent”. He IS a good chemistry guy, good clubhouse guy, good team-first guy, which makes him a true leader, someone who leads by example. This team has many young players, young guys full of talent. I think having a teammate who is less-talented (not saying he has no talent, but JHey, Tehran, etc are clearly more talented than he is) busting his butt everyday and succeeding at a good rate at the MLB level could teach them a thing or two about what is possible if they follow in his footsteps: they could be HOFers.
by atlbravosfan on Oct 18, 2011 5:35 AM EDT up reply actions
Prado is not "no talent", he is an All Star and a tremendous talent at most positions on the diamond
As far as teams that have won the WS with less talent than supposedly better teams filled with “greater talents”, sure:
1990 Reds (A’s were heavily favored)
1991 Twins (went worst to first along with the Braves)
1996 Yankees (Braves and Indians favored)
2004 Red Sox (Yankees, Cubs, and Astros favored)
2006 Cardinals (Yankees, Mets, and Padres favored)
2010 San Francisco Giants (Phillies and Yankees favored)
2011 Cardinals or Rangers (Phillies and Boston were supposed to sweep everything, remember)
All while Fredi is surrounded by a bunch of orangutans, trying to teach them how to bunt the rocks and coconuts that angry 300 lb gorillas are throwing at them,
by royhobbs on Jul 29, 2011 11:20 AM PDT
Strong Side / Weak Side: Chipper Jones
http://www.onionsportsnetwork.com/articles/chipper-jones,8431/
by Santaklose11 on Oct 17, 2011 1:29 PM EDT up reply actions
He’s not a “tremendous” talent at most positions. He’s adequate at 2B, if not slightly below average, and despite what his UZR for LF showed this past season, he took terrible routes to many balls, and even loafed on a few plays.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Oct 17, 2011 4:17 PM EDT up reply actions
That's just your eye test, though
Granted the metrics are flawed as well, but they don’t support your point.
Follow me on Twitter at @JakeHumphrey91
by Jake Humphrey on Oct 17, 2011 6:21 PM EDT up reply actions
I’m not sure anyone really believes in defensive metrics.
And I know the metrics don’t support my point about his LF D, but everyone knows that UZR takes at least 3 years to normalize.
The eye-test isn’t normally something that I give too much credence too, however, in terms of defense, I don’t think there really is anything better.
Here’s the thing about UZR – it takes into account the average expected range/ability of everyone at that position. We all know LF is where guys like Adam Dunn are thrown when it comes to the OF, so wouldn’t the fact that Prado rated so high on UZR speak more for the lack of defensive talent out there?
Just something to think about. I’m not saying it’s true, but it is at least plausible.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Oct 17, 2011 7:11 PM EDT up reply actions
I'd be less inclined to believe the metrics if they all said something different
But as it stands, they all like him. UZR likes him, DRS likes him…it makes me think there’s something to it.
Follow me on Twitter at @JakeHumphrey91
by Jake Humphrey on Oct 17, 2011 7:31 PM EDT up reply actions
Good rebuttal but I wouldn’t use being an All-Star as the equal meaning of being a good player or one of the best players.
We all know that the All-Star game has plenty of players that get picked that don’t belong.
The Pirates are not going to trade Andrew McCutchen - please stop suggesting this.
COUGH OMAR INFANTE COUGH
I will say that Prado earned his ASG though.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Oct 15, 2011 12:06 PM EDT up reply actions
Infante would be an all-star if he became a Swanson; but that won’t be fun.
The Pirates are not going to trade Andrew McCutchen - please stop suggesting this.
The Pawnee Rangers was the better group.
If he had introduced them to guns, he would have won, hands down.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Oct 15, 2011 2:19 PM EDT up reply actions
I don’t know. I would have thought that his book would’ve won them over. However, hr countered it with ‘how to build a proper trench’ which sounds riveting lol.
The Pirates are not going to trade Andrew McCutchen - please stop suggesting this.
by Pavy848 on Oct 15, 2011 4:45 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
“What’s our 2nd gift? You said you got us 2 gifts.”
“Your 2nd gift is the box itself.”
HHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Oct 15, 2011 5:03 PM EDT up reply actions
Very nicely put...
The notion that Prado is on the decline is ludicrous. Presenting a slash line for 2008 is a bit misleading in that he was a part timer with 228 AB. 2009 and 2010 were remarkably consistent in those terms. So 2011 marks Prado’s reversion to the mean? Hardly.with respect to ISOP numbers,who cares? I don’t project him to be a triples,HR type ever.This numbers thing is useful not the end all be all. Had Martin not been slowed by an odd injury in 2010,he was on pace for well over 200 hits,something Chipper has never done. As it was,he finished with 184 and Chipper has only bested that 3 or 4 times in his career. A team starving for hitters given their payroll,can hardly afford to give up a player that Bobby Cox thought very highly of.
by mikie baseball on Oct 15, 2011 11:17 AM EDT up reply actions
I don’t have impossible standards.
I just don’t hold up utility players with mediocre stats to high standards and call them MVPs.
And yes, I forgot that Prado was the only 2B on the team last season. He was the best 2B in 2010.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Oct 15, 2011 12:04 PM EDT up reply actions
….the fight rages on….
"It looks like The Hound of the Baskervilles out there." - Steve Stone
"...I'm reminded of Wuthering Heights." - Harry Caray
~
Gaby Sanchez - 1, Nyjer Morgan - 0
by Chief Noc-A-Homa on Oct 15, 2011 1:35 PM EDT up reply actions
Agreed
"Whoever said nothing was impossible, obviously has not tried slamming a revolving door."
by A_Patrick_Tactic on Oct 16, 2011 7:50 PM EDT up reply actions
He’s never been the best 2B on the team…
I think the proper response to this is: “What?”
Q: If not us, who? If not now, when? A: The Batman. And "when you least expect it."
It’s been addressed and corrected. He was the best (only) 2B on the team in 2010.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Oct 15, 2011 2:50 PM EDT up reply actions
And our better 2B in 2009?
Q: If not us, who? If not now, when? A: The Batman. And "when you least expect it."
Silly you, that would be KJ. This is Justin we speak of, you know that he always favors KJ over Prado :D
braves#1
The better 2B? KJ.
The healthier, more productive player? Prado.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Oct 15, 2011 3:25 PM EDT up reply actions
So better, except for not better at all?
Q: If not us, who? If not now, when? A: The Batman. And "when you least expect it."
If the question is “who had the better season” then it’s obviously Prado.
If the question is “Who is the best 2B” then that answer is KJ.
It’s not really a difficult concept.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Oct 16, 2011 1:22 PM EDT up reply actions
Uh huh, so being a more productive second baseman in 2009 doesn’t mean that Martin Prado was a better second baseman in 2009 than the guy he outperformed by a large margin in 2009?
And I’d like to know how Kelly Johnson, who was been worth 8.9 WAR over the past three seasons is a better 2B than Martin Prado who was been worth 9.2 WAR over that same period of time.
At best you could say that the two have shown that they’re roughly a push when it comes to value.
Q: If not us, who? If not now, when? A: The Batman. And "when you least expect it."
Because, KJ’s injury-plagued 2009 is included in that counting stat that is WAR.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Oct 16, 2011 8:33 PM EDT up reply actions
ohhhh so we can count that Prado WAR could have been higher too since he was injury-plagued and stuff this year. Ok, thanks justin :D
braves#1
Prado got hurt later in the season – after sucking up to that point.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Oct 16, 2011 9:38 PM EDT up reply actions
.277/.324/.438
That was Prado’s line before he went on the DL. Solid if unspectacular numbers overall. He got off to a slow start in April, then he got going in May and June (.299/.349/.489) before the Staph infection.
Q: If not us, who? If not now, when? A: The Batman. And "when you least expect it."
I didn’t realize his June was good enough to get him back to respectable levels.
Fair enough. It was still a significant slide for him this season.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Oct 17, 2011 12:20 AM EDT up reply actions
Great post
I’d sign in a second. I’m surprised nobody has mentioned his right handedness. Hard worker, team player, can play about anywhere, and should be affordable if Wren would get off the pot and extend him. He’s getting real involved in the community, get it done.
EXTEND PRADO!
"First!"...Who gives a damn if you are first
I like Prado a lot. Keep him unless you can get a great piece by adding some pitching to the trade block. You can’t just blindly say keep Prado, especially since Prado plus some of our pitching excess could mean a really nice piece.
Sgt.: Pointed stick? Oh, oh, oh. We want to learn how to defend ourselves against pointed sticks, do we? Getting all high and mighty, eh? Fresh fruit not good enough for you eh? Well I'll tell you something my lad. When you're walking home tonight and some great homicidal maniac comes after you with a bunch of loganberries, don't come crying to me! Now, the passion fruit.
Trade managers with KC
!Viva El Prado!
"It looks like The Hound of the Baskervilles out there." - Steve Stone
"...I'm reminded of Wuthering Heights." - Harry Caray
~
Gaby Sanchez - 1, Nyjer Morgan - 0
by Chief Noc-A-Homa on Oct 15, 2011 10:58 AM EDT reply actions
I’m fine with dealing him if it provides a legitimate upgrade, but I don’t see us getting good value for him. And if we deal him, we’re lacking the versatility that he provides, particularly as a backup for Chipper.
Q: If not us, who? If not now, when? A: The Batman. And "when you least expect it."
BABIP
I agree that Prado perhaps got a little unlucky, but I don’t think we should overstate it. His BABIP was .266, but his LD% was also a mere 14.6%, contrast that to the 21.0% he had last year. I think we can all agree Prado, lives and dies by BABIP, and he got killed by it last year, so the question is: what was his luck neutral figure? Answer: depends who you ask.
Actual: .266
Career: .315
ldBABIP: .266
xBABIP: .315
Those number are a tremendous coincidence that they happen to fall like that. My take is that his luck neutral BABIP is somewhere in between the .266 and .315, probably closer to the .315.
Another interesting BABIP related topic is not how unlucky Prado was, but the Braves team as a whole. Check out this THT article:
They have a spread sheet in there and i took the time to look at the Braves starting 8 and their xBABIPs. Every Braves starter, with the exception of Bourn and Freeman, has a xBABIP great than their BABIP.
Here they are:
Uggla 0.061
Heyward 0.058
Prado 0.049
Jones 0.033
Gonzalez 0.021
McCann 0.019
Freeman -0.004
Bourn -0.010
I thought their xOPS were interesting as well:
Uggla 0.845
Heyward 0.785
Prado 0.769
Jones 0.866
Gonzalez 0.674
McCann 0.851
Freeman 0.795
Bourn 0.693
I wont sign it simply because he has to go. We need production out of LF and that is a fact. If we can package prado to get a upgrade in the OF we have to do it. Sign Jamey Carroll and you have a perfect back up for chipper who knows how to take a walk. Prado is on a slow spiral down.
In baseball, you're supposed to sit on your ass, spit tobacco, and nod at stupid things. Perfect life might I add.
If that's truly a spiral downward
Slow has no reasonable inclusion in the description.
I’d much more believe one off-season based on track record.
Hey! I’m new.
by ChopMaster on Jul 7, 2011 10:24 PM CDT (joined Jul 19, 2010)
Twitter: @biggentleben
by biggentleben on Oct 16, 2011 1:14 AM EDT up reply actions
I think he’s also alluding to the fact that Prado’s numbers have slowly, but consistently declined for the past 3 seasons.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Oct 16, 2011 1:23 PM EDT up reply actions
His WAR has steadily went up except for the bad 2011 year, but who didn’t struggle at the plate? 2008 it was 1.3, 2009 it was 3.2, 2010 it was 4.4, and this past year was 1.6, but I think the sane people on here realize that there were multiple factors that probably accounted for this. Yes, 2008 he was in limited games, so the WAR would be small. I don’t see how he has “consistently declined for the past 3 seasons”, ohhh you probably are talking about his walk rate going down. Right, some individual numbers go down, and you ignore the entire package because the walk rate fits in how he has consistently declined. Whatever justin, whatever floats your boat.
braves#1
Actually, it’s his entire slash line that has gone down, not just his OBP, SLG, AVG or OPS individually.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Oct 16, 2011 4:24 PM EDT up reply actions
Albert Pujols numbers has def fallen the last 3 years. From 2008-2011 Pujols walk rate has fallen, OBP has fallen, HR has fallen, WAR has fallen from 9.0, to 7.5, to 5.1. Hmmm…. even the great mighty Pujols numbers have fallen. Well hot damn, they done figured the great Pujols out. Fuckin retire Albert, YOU HAVE BEEN FIGURED OUT, and you are declining, and you can’t get back up. Poor guy ;)
braves#1
This is a ridiculous argument.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Oct 16, 2011 7:44 PM EDT up reply actions
how so? You said “Prado’s numbers have slowly, but consistently declined for the past 3 seasons.” so ummm… when Pujols WAR, OBP, walk rate, HR ALL consistently declined for the past 3 years, but it’s ok. But, when Prado numbers(not WAR except this past year) fall, it’s ok. I’m not gonna sit here and say Prado is better, we all know Pujols is 1 billion times better. You are the ridiculous one, I show a point and you dismiss it and say this is a ridiculous argument. It is ridiculous cause I found a great great GREAT player that has actually started going down in numbers last 3 years, and this hurts your freaking argument. I obviously am not saying Pujols is done, the guy has just had worse numbers, so what? The guy is still a great player. Prado is still a good player as well. Look, you are wrong, so just hush, I’m done talking with you. I found this, so just lick your wounds and go off and fight for another day, or else you will just have to be put down.
braves#1
Because even a sucky Albert Pujols is one of the best hitters in the game.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Oct 16, 2011 8:33 PM EDT up reply actions
but the point is, his numbers have consistently fallen the last 3 seasons…You and another guy are acting like just because someones numbers fall that they are figured out or are done or something, which isn’t true…
braves#1
No, I’m not acting like that at all. But when you don’t have much to fall back on in your offensive quiver, a sudden drop in LD% that affects your overall numbers is something worth considering.
And if you can cash that chip value in at its highest peak, you do it. You don’t wait to see if its value goes back up or if it falls further.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Oct 16, 2011 9:39 PM EDT up reply actions
since he has in your book been sliding the past 3 seasons, why on earth is his trade value high or high enough that we will get equal value???
braves#1
There is a difference in “equal value” and cashing in when your chip is its highest.
Prado alone will not bring us an upgrade at SS or LF. He would have to be packaged with someone else – because Prado is a utility player, and not valuable enough to bring back anything of significant value on his own.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Oct 17, 2011 12:21 AM EDT up reply actions
so he is a utility player because of one bad year, that most sane people acknowledge that there were multiple reasons for it. So a guy that has the ability to hit .300+ AVG, .350 or better OBP, 15 homers, 184 hits isn’t good enough to be a everyday player, and instead is relegated to utility player? Very interesting, hope a LF can hit .350 AVG, .400 OBP, 30 homers and 200 hits…
braves#1
No. He’s a utility player because he plays multiple positions – none very well, but decently enough to get by.
PS – utility players can play every day – a la Prado
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Oct 17, 2011 9:22 AM EDT up reply actions
One bad season? His walk rate continues to decline and he relies solely on contact to get on base. The metrics dont lie Prado is being exposed.
In baseball, you're supposed to sit on your ass, spit tobacco, and nod at stupid things. Perfect life might I add.
Albert Pujols numbers has def fallen the last 3 years. From 2008-2011 Pujols walk rate has fallen, OBP has fallen, HR has fallen, WAR has fallen from 9.0, to 7.5, to 5.1. Hmmm…. even the great mighty Pujols numbers have fallen. Well hot damn, they done figured the great Pujols out. Fuckin retire Albert, YOU HAVE BEEN FIGURED OUT, and you are declining, and you can’t get back up. Poor guy ;)
braves#1
Jed Lowrie
I think he would fit us greatly and serve as a capable SS until whenever plus he has proven he has power and has speed,acquire him and either sign Willingham/Beltran or acquire somebody like Quentin or Juan Rivera
We could get whoever we want
If the BoSox hire a moron dead set on creating his own team. Here’s hoping!
The Pirates are not going to trade Andrew McCutchen - please stop suggesting this.
I love
how this thread has quickly turned into a justin vs the world thread… more so than usual.
The Pirates are not going to trade Andrew McCutchen - please stop suggesting this.
Really, it’s like me vs 4 people. Most everyone else realizes what Prado is and aren’t easily drawn into the discussion.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Oct 17, 2011 12:22 AM EDT up reply actions
no, most people don’t care to discuss things with you, because they know how delusional you are, and it’s as waste of their time…
braves#1
Funny, considering how I have great conversations on here most of the time with many people…
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Oct 17, 2011 9:23 AM EDT up reply actions
Some things you make good points about, but when it involves Prado, KJ, and maybe a few other things, it honestly isn’t worth arguing with you, and that is a fact…
braves#1
Honestly, I agree with justin most of the time about many things
But then he’ll go too far with shit and end up making me look bad for agreeing with him up to that point. So yeah, even people who agree with justin sometimes wish he would shut up.
My buddy and I just decided that the braves would be set if we could get Matt Kemp, Jose Reyes, and Albert Pujols.
by willlinn on May 17, 2011 2:13 PM EDT
by Bronn on Oct 19, 2011 3:16 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Justin is right. I understand that Prado is a great guy works harder than a lot of players and that is what has carried him this far. I am not saying Prado sucks and I know Justin isn’t either but the fact is a team would love to have him at 2B but that team isn’t us. Prado is not a outfielder and we need production out of our corner outfielders. His value is at 2B why would we not package him to get a legit corner bat? Or if we could keep him and get a corner outfielder that knew how to hit then I would love to keep him on the team.
In baseball, you're supposed to sit on your ass, spit tobacco, and nod at stupid things. Perfect life might I add.
I don't understand that line of thinking
“we need production out of position x because it is a position production usually comes from!” We have two positions on our team in which we get above average production from (C and 2B). Prado will probably hit .280/.330/.460 with 20 HR next year. I don’t know about you guys, but I don’t see us getting a LF who will fit in the budget who can match that total next year.
Not to mention the fact that Prado is supposed to take over 3B the following year, so then we’d have to find a replacement there as well and 3B are much more difficult to come by than OFers. Not to mention, anyone see the OF class for 2012-13? Could be really sick…
by atlbravosfan on Oct 18, 2011 9:07 AM EDT up reply actions
Prado will probably hit 20 HR?
His career high is 15. And your “projected” line has him with a .200 Iso, while his career high is .158.
Follow me on Twitter at @JakeHumphrey91
by Jake Humphrey on Oct 18, 2011 9:52 AM EDT up reply actions
Why not?
Players entering their prime tend to perform better than in previous years. Anyone who has watched him play knows he has 20 HR power, he was on pace this year before he got derailed by injuries. I don’t think an uptick from 15 to 20 is that big of a leap of faith for a guy turning 27.
by atlbravosfan on Oct 19, 2011 1:59 AM EDT up reply actions
Total Offensive Production
http://highboskage.com/daily-stats/batters/left-fielders-by-batting.shtml
In baseball, you're supposed to sit on your ass, spit tobacco, and nod at stupid things. Perfect life might I add.
Ranks 14th with more than 500 at bats and 24th with more than 300 at bats.
In baseball, you're supposed to sit on your ass, spit tobacco, and nod at stupid things. Perfect life might I add.
by HeywardFTW! on Oct 17, 2011 12:18 AM EDT up reply actions
Show me on that chart where he ranks in heart and grit!
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Oct 17, 2011 12:23 AM EDT up reply actions
FIRST of course!!! Hell if the Braves invited me to a spring training camp I’d be busting my ass in the cages and working hard does that mean I can be a starter too?!
In baseball, you're supposed to sit on your ass, spit tobacco, and nod at stupid things. Perfect life might I add.
by HeywardFTW! on Oct 17, 2011 12:30 AM EDT up reply actions
He had one down freaking year. Of course he ranks high against the others. I guess you aren’t allowed to have one bad year because of multiple reasons, it’s a what have you done for me lately world I guess… BTW Heyward was such a stud this year, look where he ranks by RF. Look, most of the offense was just plain bad this year, I love it how Heyward is immune to it and Prado isn’t. It’s ok though
braves#1
You forgot to mention that Heyward was TERRIBLE but still better than Prado this year.
In baseball, you're supposed to sit on your ass, spit tobacco, and nod at stupid things. Perfect life might I add.
by HeywardFTW! on Oct 17, 2011 12:53 AM EDT up reply actions
BOTH were terrible, and I obviously know that Prado wasn’t good this year. Don’t think I ever once said he was good this year. Heyward was better, but put it this way, if Heyward has another year like he just had, the Front Office will sour on him, like some are on Prado. If we keep Prado as our LF and him and Heyward both have bad years, then we will be in the market for TWO corner OF’s.
braves#1
It seems as if you are confusing what we are really saying with what you want us to be saying. You seem to assume that we want to trade Prado because we think he sucks. That’s not the case, nor will you find anyone here who has said that, or anything even remotely close to that.
The reality is that if trading him means making our team better, then we do it. Putting a “DO NOT TRADE” clause on him is not only a dumb idea, it’s short-sighted.
Martin Prado is not a key to this offense now. He is a role player. Role players are expendable.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Oct 17, 2011 9:25 AM EDT up reply actions
Well, I never once meant that we shouldn’t trade Prado. I told you before nobody to me on this team is untouchable. Some are close to it and would take a great package to move, but I would always listen if it could improve the team. So to me, Prado would be expendable if we can actually find a legit upgrade, but it needs to be a legit upgrade, otherwise makes no sense.
But, if you read what HeywardFTW! said, he talked about Prado sucking when ranked against LF. I knew this, he had a awful year, no way around it. I was just defending Prado, I have the right to defend him.
braves#1
Heyward is way younger and the potential ceilings of the two aren’t even comparable.
In baseball, you're supposed to sit on your ass, spit tobacco, and nod at stupid things. Perfect life might I add.
Reply button? ;)
LMFAO, if you really think this Front Office will put up with Heyward having another shitty ass year in 2012 like he did in 2011, then you buddy, are as delusional as your friend Justin. Braves would most definitely be in a market for a new RF in 2013, but you can think what you want. Young factor doesn’t mean SHIT if you can’t produce.
braves#1
I love it when people can’t think of other words to use, so they cuss. It really adds to the intellect of the conversation – especially when coupled with condescending forms of addressing another individual.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Oct 17, 2011 9:27 AM EDT up reply actions
I love it when people say something about others cussing. I never actually cussed an individual. I said shitty ass year, and I said SHIT about not producing. I love it when you try to find faults. I meant nobody any disrespect, it was a shit year, you want me to call it a crap year? I guess we can’t all be like the great justin, the superior naive delusional person on here…
braves#1
Do I get shot if I mention Yunel was over twice as valuable as Prado in 2011? Yunel is actually a an example of not giving up on a guy too quickly. He magically went back to around his career norms after a down year. So lets not sell low but lets stop pretending Prado is anywhere near the best player on this team.
There was more to it than them trading Yunel because they gave up on him too quickly. Like most believe, Wren traded him because Bobby didn’t really care for him being on the team, and that was his last year as manager, so Wren did what he did. I think most braves fans can agree on this. I wished we still had Escobar, he was one of my favorite players. I don’t think anyone is saying Prado is the best player on the team or even almost the best player. Me and most people think McCann, Freeman, Heyward, Bourn, some of the pitchers we have are more valuable than Prado. Prado is my 2nd favorite Brave only behind Chipper. Even though I don’t think Prado is the best on this team, I believe he is a very valuable member, and I believe he will rebound in 2012.
braves#1
No. People are calling Prado the MVP of the team. That’s just ridiculous.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Oct 17, 2011 9:28 AM EDT up reply actions
No, I don't think people are calling him the MVP of the team
we (they) are just saying we would glad sign a petition not to trade him…and it seems like you are taking a dump on him and claiming that he is finished, which is ridiculous.
Personally, I think Prado is invaluable to this team due to the production combined with versatility that he brings. He can literally stand in at almost any position and play at an almost All Star level. So he had one bad year. Considering, his injuries and how everyone on the team hit, Prado’s down year was clearly an anomaly, and I refuse to throw him under the bus for having one bad year (and frankly, comparative to the rest of our team and baseball) it wasn’t even that bad.
As far as MVP goes, no, obviously Prado was not the team MVP this year ( though I think he was last year). This year, considering production over the whole year, I think team MVP goes to Freeman.
All while Fredi is surrounded by a bunch of orangutans, trying to teach them how to bunt the rocks and coconuts that angry 300 lb gorillas are throwing at them,
by royhobbs on Jul 29, 2011 11:20 AM PDT
Strong Side / Weak Side: Chipper Jones
http://www.onionsportsnetwork.com/articles/chipper-jones,8431/
by Santaklose11 on Oct 17, 2011 3:34 PM EDT up reply actions
Dude…we were specifically discussing above where people are calling him a team MVP…in those exact words.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Oct 17, 2011 4:09 PM EDT up reply actions
In 2010 yes (and I agree)
In regards to the 2011 season, I saw one post by Treidof generally implying that he is team MVP.
Why would the Braves trade their team MVP? Also who else would bat second? Everyone knows you need a guy who can bunt in that spot. Baseball 101.
by Treidof on Oct 14, 2011 1:21 PM PDT reply actions
Who else said it, and where did they say that Prado was team MVP in 2011?…
All while Fredi is surrounded by a bunch of orangutans, trying to teach them how to bunt the rocks and coconuts that angry 300 lb gorillas are throwing at them,
by royhobbs on Jul 29, 2011 11:20 AM PDT
Strong Side / Weak Side: Chipper Jones
http://www.onionsportsnetwork.com/articles/chipper-jones,8431/
by Santaklose11 on Oct 17, 2011 4:40 PM EDT up reply actions
Nobody was saying he was the 2011 MVP.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Oct 17, 2011 4:46 PM EDT up reply actions
hence, my post above on Oct 17, 2011 12:34 PM PDT
All while Fredi is surrounded by a bunch of orangutans, trying to teach them how to bunt the rocks and coconuts that angry 300 lb gorillas are throwing at them,
by royhobbs on Jul 29, 2011 11:20 AM PDT
Strong Side / Weak Side: Chipper Jones
http://www.onionsportsnetwork.com/articles/chipper-jones,8431/
by Santaklose11 on Oct 18, 2011 12:12 PM EDT up reply actions
Team MVP
Really, this ends up being similar to the discussion on “ace” and what qualifies.
I personally look at contributions on and off the field, much of which isn’t quantifiable, I understand, when I consider an MVP. Justin Verlander would rank extremely high in my MVP voting in the AL, as in top-3 high for that reason.
Others look at MVP in a much more “show me you deserve it” sort of way. These would be the folks that never would have given Dustin Pedroia an MVP in 2008, but this season would have made him a top 10 candidate when he’s not getting any conversation. 2011 is drastically a better season than 2008, but that 2008 Pedroia was a major clubhouse rah-rah guy and was consistent on an offense that had no one other than Youkilis playing consistent (or healthy) all year. The folks that prefer the “show me” approach prefer things like WAR, OPS+, and WPA to determine who is the best player and push aside circumstancial issues like a player’s role, off field contributions, and standing within the organization when considering who is the MVP.
Prado is a guy who would be high on consideration for team MVP last season, but I can’t say for sure if I’d hand him the award or some other very deserving guys like Hudson and Wagner (especially being a pitching fan like I am). I will say that we had two guys top 600 PAs last year, and I would favor Prado over Heyward in 2010 because of the role Prado had to play in the lineup and the way he responded to it. I’d still have them both behind Hudson and Wagner, but if you wanted one pitcher and one position guy, I’d go Prado.
Hey! I’m new.
by ChopMaster on Jul 7, 2011 10:24 PM CDT (joined Jul 19, 2010)
Twitter: @biggentleben
thank you
that’s my argument about the whole “MVP” discussion. MVP does not mean the best player on the team, it means the most valuable player. We had no leadoff hitter until Martin stepped up and into that role, raising his game a level. Again, couple that with his leading-by-example and his ability to play around the diamond, the dude is extremely “valuable”. Definitely not the best player on the team nor does he have the highest ceiling, doesn’t detract from his value to the team however.
by atlbravosfan on Oct 18, 2011 9:12 AM EDT up reply actions
Our MVP is Chipper Jones. No matter if he hits .240, he is this team’s MVP.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Oct 18, 2011 12:21 PM EDT up reply actions
huh?
how does that make any sense? So if Brian McCann in 2012 hits .300 AVG, .375 OBP, 28 homers and Chipper hits .240 AVG, .310 OBP, 10 homers(I think chipper will be better than this too, just go along with this) then how the hell is Chipper the team’s MVP?
braves#1
Because he’s Chipper.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Oct 18, 2011 3:47 PM EDT up reply actions
had a feeling you would say something to that extent. Chipper is my favorite player period, but no way if he put up those numbers he would be MVP for us or any other team. Never thought you would consider mediocrity(if he would hit for those numbers) and call that player our MVP. Very interesting…
braves#1
But he has such a huge clubhouse presence
how could he not be our MVP?
Most people use statistics the way a drunk would use a lamppost—for support, and not for illumination.
www.duwanis.com
clubhouse factor, CLUBHOUSE FACTOR? What? Since when does Justin talk about clubhouse factor and not the overall numbers? I thought that was why he gives Prado such shit is because of his numbers and ignores what he does on and off the field…hmmm… guess it is different circumstances for different guys. ;)
braves#1
I may be giving Justin too much credit, but
I think you really missed the point here, even when I tried to make it obvious. Maybe I should use sarcasm font more often.
Most people use statistics the way a drunk would use a lamppost—for support, and not for illumination.
www.duwanis.com
It’s not about grit or determination. It’s about baseball smarts and leadership. Chipper Jones is the heartbeat of the Braves. Who do the hitters go to when they slump? Who calls the player-only meetings? Who sets the tone?
Chipper. There isn’t a smarter hitter on the team, if not in all of baseball. Chipper isn’t the MVP because of his good attitude or his hustle. Chipper is the MVP because he is Chipper. Chipper transcends intangibles. Chipper is indescribable. Have you ever seen a player with as much influence on any team as Chipper? Have you ever seen someone who is as much a face of the franchise as Chipper?
Have you ever seen a team live and die with one player as much as Chipper?
Chipper’s MVPness goes beyond the numbers.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Oct 18, 2011 7:44 PM EDT up reply actions
uh huh
He still isn’t the MVP, no matter what twist you want to say. He is valuable though, nobody is disputing this. It’s funny that you can say that about Chipper MVPness goes beyond the numbers. But, yet you look SOLELY on what Prado produces or doesn’t produce, even after his 2010 season, you say his numbers consistently fall. Becoming quite comical actually. You said: Have you ever seen a team live and die with one player as much as Chipper? Honestly dude, I don’t know, I don’t pay attention to other MLB teams to know. But, something tells me that if chipper produces the line that I said above, that we wouldn’t live and die with Chipper, and he is making a lot of money, that money could go elsewhere, truth be told. Don’t get me wrong, I’m glad we have Chipper still here, but don’t be making it out that Chipper is the MVP of this team, because those years are gone. He is still valuable though, just not the Most valuable, big difference here. I was waiting for your fascinating response, and boy is it a doozy, nothing that I didn’t expect lol.
braves#1
As long as he wears #10, he is our MVP.
Prado is no Chipper Jones in any way, shape or form.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Oct 18, 2011 9:07 PM EDT up reply actions
BREAKING NEWS: CHIPPER TO WEAR #12 TO COMMEMORATE 2012 WORLD SERIES RUN
MVP STATUS: LOST.
Most people use statistics the way a drunk would use a lamppost—for support, and not for illumination.
www.duwanis.com
Touche, good sir. Touche.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Oct 18, 2011 9:28 PM EDT up reply actions
If I saw the memo correctly, Eddie Perez will switch numbers with Chipper. Does that mean Eddie Perez becomes the team MVP upon donning the prestigious #10?
Yeah, well, you know, that's just, like, uh, your opinion, man. -The Dude
At that point, it's more correct to say
that he’s always been our team MVP, we just never gave him credit for it because he hasn’t been posting numbers.
Most people use statistics the way a drunk would use a lamppost—for support, and not for illumination.
www.duwanis.com
MVP does not mean the best player on the team, it means the most valuable player.
This, I don’t get. And I’ll never get people who argue it. Okay, let’s deconstruct this. Most valuable player-the player who did the most to add value to the team, generally measured in total wins. The player who did the most to help the team win. The player who does the most to increase the team’s win total is usually the player who performed best on the year, if you can adjust for the relative value of contributions at a defensive position. So yes, it seems like any reason reasonable definition of “Most valuable player,” should basically be “Best player.”
So if you look at the Braves in 2010, you have two clearly better candidates, and another that’s very arguable (Tommy Hanson). So declaring Prado the team MVP in 2010 is too much. That still doesn’t mean he wasn’t very valuable and didn’t have a very good season, but keep things in perspective, please.
My buddy and I just decided that the braves would be set if we could get Matt Kemp, Jose Reyes, and Albert Pujols.
by willlinn on May 17, 2011 2:13 PM EDT
That's an overly-simplistic view IMO
I don’t believe that everything player x brings in terms of value to the team can be quantified statistically. Where in WAR is a player’s clubhouse chemistry? Where does WAR value a player switching positions or assuming a role which nobody else on the team was able to fulfill up to that point?
A guy can have a fantastic season statistically, but be less valuable, in my opinion, than another player who stepped up and filled a crucial role for the team. Baseball is the ultimate team sport. It doesn’t matter if the player doesn’t have the flashiest statistics, this isn’t basketball. Not to mention the fact that I’m not advocating a player for MVP who had horrible stats last season. Prado was an above average player for his position, plus he stepped up in more ways than one. For me, his contributions to the overall team’s success were extremely valuable and cannot be quantified purely statistically. Not everything in baseball is a math equation.
by atlbravosfan on Oct 19, 2011 5:00 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
For what it is worth....
Martin Prado finished 9th in the MVP voting in 2010. That is for the entire National League! His 51 votes were one behind Jason Werth. But wait, he wasn’t even in the top 3 for the Braves. Martin is a fundamentally sound hitter who may someday win a batting title. Cox was quoted as saying that it was difficult for him to pick an MVP for the Braves in 2010, but if he had to it would be Martin Prado.
I am also curious how a player is on a slow and steady decline the past 3 years,but have a great year in 2010? Was 2009 sensational?
Prado will never win a batting title. I will bet anything on that.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Oct 17, 2011 4:10 PM EDT up reply actions
how do you know that he won’t ever win a batting title? I don’t know either way, but I won’t say no for sure…
braves#1
Because his skill set doesn’t lean towards it happening.
He’ll hover around .300, but never tops in the league.
As far as how I “KNOW” that? I don’t. It’s an educated assumption.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Oct 17, 2011 4:12 PM EDT up reply actions
What? No his skill set is exactly the sort that can win a batting title, he’s an aggressive batter that doesn’t take as many walks as he probably should, with some pop but not enough that other teams are going to pitch around him. He’s already had some good efforts slowed by injuries in his career.
He’s the prototypical sort of player who can post a monster average if he goes over his career norms in BABIP and manages to stay healthy.
Q: If not us, who? If not now, when? A: The Batman. And "when you least expect it."
Wouldn’t you say that 2010 was his “over career norms?”
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Oct 18, 2011 1:34 AM EDT up reply actions
No.
Considering that his BABIP the previous season was .331.
Q: If not us, who? If not now, when? A: The Batman. And "when you least expect it."
But his career norm is .315…which is funny, considering that only 2 of his 6 seasons in MLB saw his BABIP below .320.
My point isn’t about his BABIP though. My point is that the 2009-2010 Prado is going to be as good as it gets, unless we limit his time like in 2008.
I just don’t see him getting any better than that. He doesn’t have the speed to maintain high averages. His batting average is based on his ability to hit line drives into the gaps – which is something he didn’t do this year. I don’t know why, but it didn’t happen.
Prado is most valuable to this team as a Super Utility guy or as a trade chip for a true impact player.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Oct 18, 2011 3:08 AM EDT up reply actions
But his career norm is .315…which is funny, considering that only 2 of his 6 seasons in MLB saw his BABIP below .320.
Which should go to show just how much of an aberration this season was for him.
My point isn’t about his BABIP though. My point is that the 2009-2010 Prado is going to be as good as it gets, unless we limit his time like in 2008.
And 2009 – 2010 Martin Prado is a good hitter who, with a lucky spike in BABIP season could easily contend for a batting title.
Prado is most valuable to this team as a Super Utility guy or as a trade chip for a true impact player.
If we can trade him for a legitimate impact player that’s cool, but Prado’s a guy that is 27, is under team control for 2 seasons, can OPS over .800, performs equally against LHP and RHP, and can play 5 different positions. He’s also coming off the worst season of his career, the odds are that we aren’t going to get fair value for him in a trade and we can’t afford to take on another salary in LF and keep Prado in a utility role.
Who are we going to get that both makes financial sense and represents a “true impact player”?
Q: If not us, who? If not now, when? A: The Batman. And "when you least expect it."
His career norm is now .315. It dropped a full 20 points, exactly, as a result of this season.
While BABIP never stabilizes, many hitters have shown the ability to hit for a higher-than-normal BABIP. I wouldn’t think it out of the realm of possibility that Prado is one such hitter.
This is a player that had a LD% of nearly 20.7% going into last season, so there’s not a lot of BABIP inflation that can be attributed to luck, career-wise. The quick-and-dirty xBABIP calculation, according to Hardball Times, is LD% in .xxx format + .120. The GB and FB ratios can change that a little, but BABIP is mostly predicated on LD%.
-C
It’s rough to sit through these games and not have someone that can’t hit a Ball?
Rocky....
That was a quote from Chipper Jones …4/23/2010
by mikie baseball on Oct 17, 2011 6:07 PM EDT up reply actions
Chipper also has been on record as saying that Francoeur will be the cleanup hitter.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Oct 17, 2011 7:11 PM EDT up reply actions
I wasn’t arguing with you about the batting title. Justin said “Prado will never win a batting title. I will bet anything on that.” And I just said to HIM “how do you know that he won’t ever win a batting title? I don’t know either way, but I won’t say no for sure…”
I mean he is a contact hitter, so I would never say he couldn’t win it honestly. But, I can’t guarantee he will win one either, time will tell…
braves#1
He is actually well on his way to a batting title in 2010 before trying to play through a broken pinky finger and a strained groin muscle and a serious hip injury before finally going down to a a torn external oblique muscle in late September.
Your no doubt about it, cock-sure wrong-headedness is extremely tiresome.
Specifically, he played in 83 of the teams first 84 games and at the end of play on 7/7/2010 was batting .336 with 121 H in 360 AB.
The question then is, do you think Prado can be better than he was in 2010? I don’t. I think that’s his peak.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Oct 18, 2011 12:45 AM EDT up reply actions
It’s because his walk rate and a few other stats went down in 2010. For some reason, his WAR went up ;). Look, people that give their excuses about how Prado has declined last 3 years, just want some way to knock the guy. They say they like Prado, and think he is a fine player, but they find something to knock the guy. If you really try, you can go out and knock a lot of guys. You can say things about how Pujols has steadily declined last 3 years in WAR, OBP, HR, and other stats. A lot of players go up and down, some stay steady for awhile, it is baseball, shit happens lol. It’s really easy to knock a guy if you really want to, and you can say how this stat and that stat help your case, it’s quite easy actually.
braves#1
I'm not looking for anything
the .303 (IIRC) OBP speaks for itself. It’s just sitting there slapping us in the face.
If he were doing that in the 8-hole, fine. I get it. But to have that in the 2-spot is just moronic.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Oct 17, 2011 4:13 PM EDT up reply actions
I do agree the 2 spot just didn’t look comfortable for him, especially once Bourn came aboard. I think he would be a perfect 6 hitter, the guy is a guy that needs to hit the ball, 7 spot would be perfect and 2 spot would be good with Heyward or Freeman there. I wouldn’t mind seeing Bourn, Freeman/Heyward, Chipper, McCann, Uggla, Heyward/Freeman, Prado, and then whoever SS is. I think that could be a lot better. Doesn’t matter if Freeman or Heyward is hitting 2nd, I would trust either honestly.
braves#1
not 6 hitter, but 7. He would be a good 6 hitter, but I like Freeman and Heyward more, so 7 would fit Prado best.
braves#1
He may be good there
but the other talent on the team makes him a bad choice.
Personally, I would construct the lineup as follows (assuming we don’t bring in a new ss)
1 – Bourn
2 – Heyward
3 – Chipper
4 – Uggla
5 – Freeman
6 – McCann
7 – Gonzalez
8 – Prado
I don’t put Gonzalez above Prado because I believe he is a better hitter. That could not be farther from the truth! Gonzalez is one of the worst hitters in the majors.
However, I put Prado 8th because I believe he would do a better job of turning the lineup and possibly being on base for the high OBP guys following him. He gets on, the pitcher bunts him over, etc.
It’s not a knock on Prado. If anything, it’s an endorsement of his hitting ability.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Oct 17, 2011 4:22 PM EDT up reply actions
I would rather bat McCann ahead of Uggla, but def not 6th. I would bat Uggla 6th before McCann. McCann is just a better overall hitter than Uggla. I get what you are saying about Prado batting 8th. But, just say you have 7 good hitters that Braves have, then I would want my best 7 hitters first and the weak link 8th. I would feel much more comfortable if I have Prado coming to the plate batting 7th with 2 outs and runners at 2nd and third than Gonzalez batting. We would have an overall better chance to seize control of the inning.
braves#1
Agreed. Big spots always seem to find Alex though, no matter where he bats. And the results were usually as expected….sigh….
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Oct 17, 2011 7:12 PM EDT up reply actions
Keep Prado.
Make Chipper retire. Bring up a third baseman from the minors and get on with it.
by CaptJackSparrow on Oct 17, 2011 6:35 PM EDT reply actions
Yeah!
Let’s make our second best hitter from 2011 retire! That’ll fix our offensive issues….
Follow me on Twitter at @JakeHumphrey91
by Jake Humphrey on Oct 17, 2011 6:54 PM EDT up reply actions
You are probably the guy that would amputate someone’s arm if they have a paper cut on their finger, aren’t you?
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Oct 17, 2011 7:13 PM EDT up reply actions
Second half 2011
Uggla .296/.379/.569/.948
Chipper .303/.350/.545/.895
Freeman .292/.346/.436/.782
Sea Bass .257/.280/.416/.696
Heyward .229/.325/.367/.692
McCann .203/.301/.384/.685
Bourn (in Atl) .278/.321/.352/.674
Prado .244/.283/.339/.622
Let’s just get rid of one of the only guys who produced in the second half.
Hey! I’m new.
by ChopMaster on Jul 7, 2011 10:24 PM CDT (joined Jul 19, 2010)
Twitter: @biggentleben
by biggentleben on Oct 17, 2011 9:11 PM EDT up reply actions
Ben I saw your post on the Sunday baseball card and didn’t want to reply on their figured wasn’t checked anymore but if your looking to liquidate your collection I would love to buy.
In baseball, you're supposed to sit on your ass, spit tobacco, and nod at stupid things. Perfect life might I add.
by HeywardFTW! on Oct 18, 2011 12:52 PM EDT up reply actions
This
In baseball, you're supposed to sit on your ass, spit tobacco, and nod at stupid things. Perfect life might I add.
by HeywardFTW! on Oct 18, 2011 12:51 PM EDT up reply actions
Okay, so you make Prado a utility man at about $4.5 MM next season? Who is starting in LF that is going to be more productive than Prado has shown he can be and also fit the budget?
Q: If not us, who? If not now, when? A: The Batman. And "when you least expect it."
This guy:
http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=2103&position=OF
Also, read this:
http://atlanta.sbnation.com/atlanta-braves/2011/10/13/2487270/atlanta-braves-offseason-trade-rumors-jason-heyward-martin-prado
Prado is going to make 100 starts minimum next year anyway, so he’s more than worth it as a super-utility player.
Twitter: @scottcoleman55
by Scott Coleman on Oct 19, 2011 4:05 AM EDT up reply actions
that guy
is the same guy Prado is when he is healthy…
by atlbravosfan on Oct 19, 2011 5:02 AM EDT up reply actions
He is?
Jeez, I didn’t realize that .293/.341/.434 and .262/.361/.475 were the same thing. Who knew that a vastly superior walk rate and more power didn’t mean anything at all!?
Follow me on Twitter at @JakeHumphrey91
by Jake Humphrey on Oct 19, 2011 10:49 AM EDT up reply actions
2009 WAR for Willingham: 2.6
2009 WAR for Prado: 3.2
2010 WAR for Willingham: 3.0
2010 WAR for Prado: 4.4
2011 WAR for Willingham: 2.1
2011 WAR for Prado: 1.6
2009 they had pretty much same PA’s. 2010 Willingham had a good bit less, so lets just entertain the idea that if Willingham had same amount of PA’s that he ends up being a 4.4 WAR player. No guarantee either way of course. 2011 they both struggled. So ya, according to WAR, they are extremely similar, minus the walks for Prado. I don’t mind finding another LF, but please lets find someone that is unquestionably better than Prado is all that I ask for.
We should be loyal to Prado, he has done everything management as asked for. He has played all over the field, and then we go out and get a LF that WAR shows both are extremely similar(less walks for Prado of course) and management says sorry we will fuck you again and tell you to sit on the bench. How would any of you feel about that? You guys been with a club your entire career, busted your ass to get where you are, moved to different positions for the team, and an outsider comes in that is similar WAR wise and takes your place as a starter and now you have to be a utility player? Don’t think many would like that, I know I wouldn’t. BRING IN A UNQUESTIONABLY BETTER LF if you are going to replace Prado. This is ridiculous.
braves#1
He’s playing baseball for a living and is getting paid millions of dollars to do it. He’s been here two and a half years as a starter; we don’t owe him anything.
Twitter: @scottcoleman55
by Scott Coleman on Oct 19, 2011 1:44 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
point is Willingham just isn’t enough of an upgrade to be taking Prado out, it’s absurd. Give me an unquestionably better LF, otherwise it is dumb to go likely 2 years at $6-8 mil per year on Willingham, might as well just go burn the money.
braves#1
You do realize Martin Prado was pretty bad last season, right? And even if he returns to his form in 2010, he’s still one of the weaker LF in the game.
Twitter: @scottcoleman55
by Scott Coleman on Oct 19, 2011 2:14 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Yes, Prado was gosh awful last year, I think anyone can agree on this. But, I think most sane people realize that with the injuries and him looking uncomfortable batting 2nd once Bourn came on board contributed to him struggling like he did. that staph infection was more serious than some think. If he can stay healthy and bat 7th, I think would do him a world of good.
braves#1
I’m shocked, but pleased. You were one of his biggest fans. I’m glad you keep things in perspective!
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Oct 19, 2011 3:36 PM EDT up reply actions
Prado played 2B/3B pretty damn extensively in '09/'10
Positional adjustments are going to give Prado an edge in WAR. Here’s what I care about:
Prado: .337 wOBA, 107 wRC+
Willingham: .364 wOBA, 123 wRC+
And Willingham struggling this year led to a .350 wOBA/123 wRC+. In Prado’s best year as a starter he put up a .352 wOBA/118 wRC+.
Follow me on Twitter at @JakeHumphrey91
by Jake Humphrey on Oct 19, 2011 1:56 PM EDT up reply actions
Willingham isn’t that good a defender, and Prado 2B defense was never great either. And then 2011 both played corner. I admitted that Willingham is better taking walks, which will give him a better OBP, don’t think I ever refuted this. Willingham is still not an unquestionably better player in LF, say what you want, but he just isn’t especially if we have to go 2 years at $6-8 mil per for Willingham.
braves#1
Well he's better at taking walks, and at hitting for power
You know, the things you expect from a LF. And signing Willingham actually improves the bench by a pretty substantial amount.
Follow me on Twitter at @JakeHumphrey91
by Jake Humphrey on Oct 19, 2011 2:16 PM EDT up reply actions
True, he does get the homers, and Prado at most is 15-17 maybe at max. I think we all realize it would improve the bench a lot. Only thing that I am disagreeing with is one thing and one thing only. Willingham isn’t much if any of an upgrade. He just isn’t, if we can find someone that is, then I am all for it, Willingham isn’t the guy.
braves#1
Well then we'll just disagree
Because I see Willingham as a very clear upgrade in LF.
Follow me on Twitter at @JakeHumphrey91
by Jake Humphrey on Oct 19, 2011 2:32 PM EDT up reply actions
This.
Plus Fredi wouldn’t be so compelled to bat him 2nd… I hope.
The Pirates are not going to trade Andrew McCutchen - please stop suggesting this.
Of course not
That’s where Alex Gonzalez bats, silly.
Most people use statistics the way a drunk would use a lamppost—for support, and not for illumination.
www.duwanis.com
Right, I totally forgot about that rule.
It’s the, if you are sucking then we’ll put you in the #2 spot to show we have confidence in you, rule.
The Pirates are not going to trade Andrew McCutchen - please stop suggesting this.
Nope
It’s the “middle infielders hit second” rule. Prado gets a pass because he was a 2B.
With his career .361 OBP, Willingham wouldn’t be a horrible choice to bat second.
Follow me on Twitter at @JakeHumphrey91
by Jake Humphrey on Oct 19, 2011 9:21 PM EDT up reply actions
No. I would prefer Heyward in the #2, or Chipper but I’ll take anything different than what we threw up there this year (and yes, Heyward needs to be different next year lol).
The Pirates are not going to trade Andrew McCutchen - please stop suggesting this.
I didn't say he'd be ideal
But it wouldn’t be a bad option.
Follow me on Twitter at @JakeHumphrey91
by Jake Humphrey on Oct 19, 2011 10:19 PM EDT up reply actions
also
nice job hawking your own writing hahaha
by atlbravosfan on Oct 19, 2011 5:03 AM EDT up reply actions
Why wouldn’t I?
Twitter: @scottcoleman55
by Scott Coleman on Oct 19, 2011 2:17 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
didn’t mean it in a negative way. I, too, do this when I am in the middle of a discussion with someone and I wrote a paper about it while I was in school. If you spend the time to thoroughly research something and you feel confident about your results, no need to repeat it, just point to your own source!
by atlbravosfan on Oct 20, 2011 2:59 PM EDT up reply actions
100 starts off the bench? I seriously doubt it, unless Chipper, Uggla, and/or Freeman managed to spend 2+ months on the DL between them.
Willingham is going to cost $8-12 MM a year on a multi-year deal to provide overall production similar to what Prado has provided when healthy. He is also going to be 33 next season. That’s not something that fits very well into our budget going forward.
Q: If not us, who? If not now, when? A: The Batman. And "when you least expect it."
He'd reach it
Chipper has averaged 121 games over the past three years. That’s 41 starts for Prado. Willingham averages 127, so now we’re at 77 starts for Prado. Uggla hardly ever misses time, so let’s bump Prado’s starts to 80. Heyward has averaged 135 starts a year, which would put Prado getting 107 starts.
Of course there will be times when these guys are out at the same time, so its not exact, but its not hard to see where he’d get 100 starts.
Follow me on Twitter at @JakeHumphrey91
by Jake Humphrey on Oct 19, 2011 11:00 AM EDT up reply actions
So, like I said, the idea that Prado is getting 100 + starts depends on our starting 3B, LF, and RF each missing 1-2 months worth of games?
And that doesn’t address the likely salary and years that it would take to sign JW at age 33, and how that fits into the budget now and going forward.
Q: If not us, who? If not now, when? A: The Batman. And "when you least expect it."
Well considering the fact that history shows they will, yes.
Do you think that Chipper, Heyward, and Willingham would magically play full seasons? No, they’re proven injury prone and are going to miss games
As for how Willingham fits, he’s not in position to get a deal much longer than two years and according to Bowman, we’ve got around $10MM available. Budget $8MM or so of that for Willingham and the rest for a SS and we’re set for the offseason.
Follow me on Twitter at @JakeHumphrey91
by Jake Humphrey on Oct 19, 2011 12:49 PM EDT up reply actions
No, we don’t have that kind of money, $2 million off of Alex’s contract and another two off of Moylan assuming we non-tender him.
We could free up money by moving Jair, but then we’d probably be taking some sort of contract back as part of the deal
Q: If not us, who? If not now, when? A: The Batman. And "when you least expect it."
Take that up with Bowman, then.
Given that Wren said we’ll have a payroll bump and Bowman says we’ll have around $10MM post-arb, I’ll believe him.
Follow me on Twitter at @JakeHumphrey91
by Jake Humphrey on Oct 19, 2011 9:53 PM EDT up reply actions
Why?
The math over at MLBTR shows that Arb + Raises is basically equal to what we have coming off the books. It’s in the best interest of Wren to create the image that he’s got money to spend this offseason, it helps him if the players/trade partners we’re targeting think that a higher priced FA is an option for us.
Q: If not us, who? If not now, when? A: The Batman. And "when you least expect it."
If you can look at that
Don’t you think other teams can too?
Follow me on Twitter at @JakeHumphrey91
by Jake Humphrey on Oct 19, 2011 10:18 PM EDT up reply actions
You’re crazy If you don’t think Chipper, Heyward, Freeman, Uggla and the new LF won’t miss 100 games. Do the math.
He’s going to command something like 2 years, $18MM with an option for a third year. He just put up his best offensive year last season in Oakland as a 32-year old; what makes you think he’ll he any different as a 33-year old?
Also, it’s not exactly like Prado never gets hurt.
Twitter: @scottcoleman55
by Scott Coleman on Oct 19, 2011 1:53 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
HUH???
how exactly did Willingham just put up his best offensive year last year in Oakland? Fascinating comment. His Walk rate took a nosedive, which knocked down his OBP a good bit. His K rate actually went up. Oh wait, silly me, I forgot, his HR and RBI numbers went up, at the expense of his other stats…and his WAR went down from 3.0, 2.6, 3.0, 2.1 which was this year.
braves#1
That’s my fault for typing on my phone. It was one of his better overall hitting seasons, not his best.
Also, get off your fucking high horse. You don’t need to tell WAR numbers to me.
Twitter: @scottcoleman55
by Scott Coleman on Oct 19, 2011 2:20 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
If we’re comparing offensive players, Willingham blows him out of the water. There’s no debating this. His defense is questionable, but he’s still a much better option than Prado.
Twitter: @scottcoleman55
by Scott Coleman on Oct 19, 2011 2:21 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
high horse? Man stfu LMFAO. Don’t be having a hissy fit, jesus. You said his best numbers, I showed where it WASN’T. I didn’t insult you, I didn’t do anything like that. If you are going to be a fucking douche dick about something that you shouldn’t be, then I won’t reply to anything else you say. This ridiculous, you can’t even control yourself, you seem like a 5 year old.
braves#1
Speaking of five year olds…
Twitter: @scottcoleman55
by Scott Coleman on Oct 19, 2011 2:28 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
ya I’m looking at the 5 year old in Scott Coleman, got that right. Big baby, can’t even have a simple discussion without you saying shit. And you call yourself an editor? LMFAO, that’s a good one. Count me as one that doesn’t care for you. Gondee should strip that from your name. You should learn how to act like people I like and respect in Gondee, yondaime4, cbwilk, roybobbs and others.
braves#1
Right, because I’m clearly the one with a problem here.
Twitter: @scottcoleman55
by Scott Coleman on Oct 19, 2011 3:57 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
No, you're clearly
the insufferable schmuck.
Most people use statistics the way a drunk would use a lamppost—for support, and not for illumination.
www.duwanis.com
Forever and always!
I actually participate on TC because of some free time and proceed to get yelled at and called a five-year old.
Twitter: @scottcoleman55
by Scott Coleman on Oct 19, 2011 4:43 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
You have free time?
College: you’re doing it wrong.
Most people use statistics the way a drunk would use a lamppost—for support, and not for illumination.
www.duwanis.com
Uh, it's called "priority registration"
All you have to do is win a paintball apocalypse, and then you can schedule all your credit hours on Tuesday, and have a six-day weekend.
No wonder nobody likes you, Tuttle... everything's a (Pujols) damn debate.
LOL @ this response. He says “Get off your fucking high horse,” and you go on a tirade and then proceed to call him a 5 year old.
7 sentences of diatribe versus 6 words, but he’s the child…
-C
It’s rough to sit through these games and not have someone that can’t hit a Ball?
ehhh, looking back at it, I didn’t have to go on such a big tirade, but at first it really irritated me. Why would a editor of a very good site like Talking Chop just sit there and tell a member(I have been here since 2007, longer than probably 75% of the people here) and get talked to like that saying “Get off your fucking high horse” when I didn’t say anything bad? My tirade wasn’t right, but what he said wasn’t right either, saying it for no good reason, but whatever. I just know for now on not to reply to anything he says.
braves#1
I don’t think Jesus was saying anything. Scott was.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Oct 19, 2011 3:46 PM EDT up reply actions
Even if they do, Prado isn’t going to actually play in their place every game they miss, Fredi is going to give starts to Hinske, Diaz, Pastornicky, whoever instead. Chipper and, say, Heyward are both going to be sitting out at the same time. As you say yourself, Prado has had injury problems of his own. Et cetera …
He’s going to command something like 2 years, $18MM with an option for a third year.
I disagree, he’s the only decent slugging threat on the FA market and he knows this is his last/best chance to cash in. He’ll get a guaranteed 3rd year from someone at the least.
He just put up his best offensive year last season in Oakland as a 32-year old; what makes you think he’ll he any different as a 33-year old?
What makes me think that a guy isn’t going to repeat the best season of his career again as he’s reaching the age where he exits his prime? That said, it really wasn’t his best season, it was arguably the worst of his career from a pure offense point of view. He hit more Homers though, so there’s that.
He’s also got the skill set that can lend itself to sudden and rapid declines with little warning.
Q: If not us, who? If not now, when? A: The Batman. And "when you least expect it."
Puke
That is all.
Hey! I’m new.
by ChopMaster on Jul 7, 2011 10:24 PM CDT (joined Jul 19, 2010)
Twitter: @biggentleben
by biggentleben on Oct 19, 2011 11:41 AM EDT up reply actions
Four Pukes.....
And you score a run. Three( and sometimes one or two ) singles and you score a run.
Back to the topic of Willingham... or maybe Carlos Quentin
First off: Willingham’s contract. $6m for Oakland in 2011. And while, yeah, he hit 29 dingerz, he also had a shocking increase in K’s (85 to 150) while reducing walks and posting the lowest OBP of his career as a full-time player.
So while $8-12m was suggested above, I personally don’t think he’s getting anything close to that. Low end at best, given 2011. Therefore, he’s a good ‘buy low’ guy. So I would go to him with an offer of $7m for 2-3 yrs. (he’s 32 next year) and see if he can revive his pre-Oakland form (I don’t see why not – something definitely changed last year). He’s also from NW Alabama — I would expect the Braves to be attractive to him. It would be a toss-up for me as to whether he, Chipper, or Prado got the most plate appearances in 2012, but Willingham would be a solid addition as part of the 3-way LF/3B rotation, but getting the primary LF duty.
Carlos Quentin. Similar power per AB, similar OBP to Willingham over his career. Just turned 29. Fewer K’s, but half the walks also. Also a little cheaper in 2012 other than the trade cost… and then you gotta decide on his fate after 2012.
This team needs to have solid, consistent offensive performers — especially to support Chipper’s knees. Either of these guys would do it for respectable costs. I would hope that the team doesn’t sit around too long after the WSeries and wait for the dregs. I don’t write this to denegrate Prado — in fact, his presence would be vital to make this work. However, he work be third in the pecking order.
"Forget Roy Halladay or Clayton Kershaw or Cliff Lee, the NL Cy Young Award should go to O’Ventrel." - David Schoenfield, ESPN.com, 8/19/11
Willingham put up 2.1 WAR last season, which on the FA market makes him roughly a $9.4 MM a year player. I guess you can adjust it down half a win for age and get around $7 MM a year.
Still, I just don’t think we’ll be able to afford that and Prado as a backup at the same time, since I’m pretty sure we’re also going to want a SS and, given our history, a veteran reliever in the bullpen.
Q: If not us, who? If not now, when? A: The Batman. And "when you least expect it."
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