Braves Lose 6-1 as Kawakami Fails
by Scott Coleman on Sep 4, 2010 1:45 AM EDT
in Braves Game Recaps
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PrintTonight, we all saw why we're going to miss Kris Medlen so much. In his return to the mound, Kenshin Kawakami got destroyed by the Marlins and gave up five runs in three innings. He gave up five hits and walked four batters, and his command was horrible in all three innings. To be perfectly honest, Kenshin is probably lucky that he only have up five runs in his brief appearance. The Marlins were all over his pitches and even the outs were on line drives.
I know that a few of the advanced stats say differently, but the fact is that Kenshin Kawakami is not a very good pitcher anymore. Whenever he starts, it seems like we're constantly behind from the early innings. And I know that we don't score for him, but it's more than just bad luck at this point. Why is it that he's the only pitcher that we haven't scored for since April? It's something to think about. Fortunately for us, only Lowe or Kawakami will make one more start for us this season if Bobby uses the off-days to skip over their spot in the rotation. At this point, neither guy has any business pitching in a playoff race. Good grief.
Logan Morrison tripled down the right field line to drive in the first run of the game, and Hanley Ramirez followed with an RBI double. Kenshin Kawakami did do himself a favor in the 2nd inning and drove in the Braves first run of the game with a 2-out single up the middle.
Chad Tracy came right back int the 3rd inning, and drove in two runners with a double to right field. Brad Davis than followed up with a sac-fly to make the score 5-1. Dan Uggla, better known as Braves Killer, doubled in the 4th inning to score Hanley Ramirez from 1st. The score was 6-1 after the 4th inning. and it would stay that way.
Recent call-ups Scott Proctor and Mike Dunn both pitched two innings on Friday and both looked alright. I doubt we'll be seeing either of them in a 1-run game in the 8th inning, but both could be good for us in a blowout. Kyle Farnsworth allegedly worked a 1-2-3 inning in the 8th inning, but I'm not buying it.
The Phillies won, so our lead in the East is 1 game. Cool.
It's probably going to be a tough game tomorrow, as we'll face ace Josh Johnson. Jair Jurrjens will counter for the Braves, but he's been one of the worst pitchers in baseball on the road this season. First pitch is at 7:10.
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Oh, but hey!
Arizona 41, Toledo 2!
ROSE BOWL BABY.
"Based on stereotypes that are totally untrue and I do not agree with, you would maybe-not be a very good driver..."
"Oh man am I a woman?!"
Congrats on win #1 sir
I was wondering why they took Foles out in the 1st half, thought he was hurt, but apparently their coach just likes to play whoever he wishes…..good luck against the Hawks cause Adrian Clayborn is gonna dominate some wildcats.
"A good friend of mine used to say, This is a very simple game. You throw the ball, you catch the ball, you hit the ball. Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose, sometimes it rains. Think about that for a while." - Ebby Calvin "Nuke" LaLoosh
kill USC and survive Oregon, than you will be in the rose bowl
good luck
"It's here, it's here, it's finally here" :Strongbad on football season
You are partially right – Lane Kiffin has bombed out of his last few jobs – but I woulnd’t say he is THE bomb.
I used to like the guy too. I defended him when he was fired in Oakland…now, I am thinking that I was way wrong.
This guy wants to suck all the cubs dick can he not have an unbias some what partition reguards
by RWH2 on Apr 5, 2010 10:20 AM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Sep 4, 2010 11:53 AM EDT up reply actions
Right now? Tennessee – because I would have a shot at a Bowl game there, and not have to worry about my program being punished for cheating.
This guy wants to suck all the cubs dick can he not have an unbias some what partition reguards
by RWH2 on Apr 5, 2010 10:20 AM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Sep 4, 2010 1:28 PM EDT up reply actions
as much as the fans annoy me
I would much rather coach Tennessee PERIOD USC will finish 2nd to last in your pathetic-10 conference
"It's here, it's here, it's finally here" :Strongbad on football season
What is Tennessee PERIOD USC?
"Based on stereotypes that are totally untrue and I do not agree with, you would maybe-not be a very good driver..."
"Oh man am I a woman?!"
by Scott Coleman on Sep 4, 2010 1:50 PM EDT up reply actions
I forgot to put a comma after period
"It's here, it's here, it's finally here" :Strongbad on football season
Funny, cause no one has ever said that
just that his numbers are in line with most back end of the rotation starters, and his W-L record would not look nearly as bad if he had any run support.
When people have nothing to back up what they say, the first thing they resort to is using extremes.
This guy wants to suck all the cubs dick can he not have an unbias some what partition reguards
by RWH2 on Apr 5, 2010 10:20 AM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Sep 4, 2010 11:22 AM EDT up reply actions
Read some of last night’s OT. It was just ludicrous.
"Jason Heyward was a Greek philosopher reincarnated as a baseball player." - Don Sutton
Do I have to?
This guy wants to suck all the cubs dick can he not have an unbias some what partition reguards
by RWH2 on Apr 5, 2010 10:20 AM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Sep 4, 2010 11:48 AM EDT up reply actions
Not if you like not pulling your hair out.
"Jason Heyward was a Greek philosopher reincarnated as a baseball player." - Don Sutton
lol. I’ll just take your word for it then. I can just imagine the hit and run “KK SUCKZ!!!” posts though.
This guy wants to suck all the cubs dick can he not have an unbias some what partition reguards
by RWH2 on Apr 5, 2010 10:20 AM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Sep 4, 2010 11:50 AM EDT up reply actions
Atlanta sports fans aren't bandwagon jumpers
We just force our selves not to care unless we are winning.
What are you talking about?
"Based on stereotypes that are totally untrue and I do not agree with, you would maybe-not be a very good driver..."
"Oh man am I a woman?!"
by Scott Coleman on Sep 4, 2010 2:19 AM EDT up reply actions
pretty harsh words, dont you think? i mean clearly giving up 5 runs in your first game back in the bigs means your “just not a good pitcher anymore”. not like his numbers match up with what he did last year or anything…oh wait. (and actually there is a 0.71 era difference between this year and last but if you take out his one relief apperance and tonights homecoming, that difference falls to just 0.18 before he was taken out the rotation)
by AvoidTheDolphin on Sep 4, 2010 2:35 AM EDT up reply actions
Did you not watch the game tonight? He got pounded, just like he has for most of the season.
"Based on stereotypes that are totally untrue and I do not agree with, you would maybe-not be a very good driver..."
"Oh man am I a woman?!"
by Scott Coleman on Sep 4, 2010 2:45 AM EDT up reply actions
Before he was demoted, he had a 3.12 ERA in his last eight starts. So it was not like he wasn’t getting better
by Braves24 on Sep 4, 2010 8:03 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
3.40
This guy wants to suck all the cubs dick can he not have an unbias some what partition reguards
by RWH2 on Apr 5, 2010 10:20 AM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Sep 4, 2010 11:23 AM EDT up reply actions
I’d imagine it’s pretty hard to pitch well when you never get to pitch. And no, AAA doesn’t count.
"Never doubt Derek Lowe's ability to win despite himself."
by EricGreggWasPaidOff on Sep 4, 2010 11:18 AM EDT up reply actions
Did YOU not watch him all season? He has not been pounded for most of the season. He was pitching very well before his mysterious disappearance.
This guy wants to suck all the cubs dick can he not have an unbias some what partition reguards
by RWH2 on Apr 5, 2010 10:20 AM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Sep 4, 2010 11:24 AM EDT up reply actions
He sucked in AAA
Kk wasn’t getting it done there either, but Beachy, Minor, and Diamond did or have. KK is 1-10…he loses and doesn’t have mental approach to stop it. Think about it, he RARELY gets tough outs in games!!!
by Braves12 on Sep 4, 2010 8:30 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
He had 21 innings over 5 starts in AAA – after not pitching for almost 40 days (June 16-26 July)
This guy wants to suck all the cubs dick can he not have an unbias some what partition reguards
by RWH2 on Apr 5, 2010 10:20 AM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Sep 4, 2010 11:25 AM EDT up reply actions
The KK/Lowe shot should indeed be skipped. But it won’t be because Bobby has already announced he’ll be using the off-days to limit Minor’s appearances. This angers me. With our lead down to one measly game, I say fuck babying Minor. One or two more appearances, compared to what he would have gotten if he were getting skipped, is not going to be the difference in whether or not he suffers a catastrophic injury. He’s just flat-out pitching better than everyone but the big three. There’s no reason to cut his appearances to trot Lowe out there again. It’s not like he’s going to throw a ton in the playoffs anyway. He wouldn’t appear in the first round. With the oodles of offdays, we only need three men for the first series, and though I think it’s a no-brainer that we go to four men for a potential second round, if we make the Big Stage it would be possible to go to three men again if Bobby doesn’t want to put Big Stage pressure on Minor.
I just miss Meds
I miss him a ton. :(
"Based on stereotypes that are totally untrue and I do not agree with, you would maybe-not be a very good driver..."
"Oh man am I a woman?!"
by Scott Coleman on Sep 4, 2010 2:22 AM EDT up reply actions
I remember reading something some moron on the AJC Blogs (I know, ew) posted sometime during Spring Training this year that basically said Meds was a punk and not a MLB caliber pitcher, even though he’d like to think he is. To that person, let me just say LOLOLOLOL.
Moral of the story: I miss him too. One piece to our puzzle that I think a lot of people didn’t realize what we had until he was gone.
honestly
at this point i would rather see the team try one of Beachy or Scott Diamond in those starts instead of KK or Lowe.
Also I’m all for giving Mac plenty of off days but I think after today Bobby may give him 2-3 off days the rest of the season. We just can’t really risk any game without his bat in our lineup
Really?
“Why is it that we haven’t scored for him in a year and half? It’s not bad luck if it’s been going on for this long.”
So Kawakami does something to the offense to make them terrible? Yes, it’s bad luck that the team isn’t scoring for him, unless you believe Kawakami is a warlock being bribed by the Phillies.
C’mon man, this site is better than this.
by YakuzaFro on Sep 4, 2010 2:55 AM EDT reply actions 2 recs
+1000
I get that everyone’s mad at KK, and they should be. But that line was just plain dumb.
You know why we don’t score for him? Because we’re losing early in every freaking game that he pitches. It’s all mental at this point. It has to be. There’s really no other explanation for it. He gets pounded early and often and has for the entire season. That takes a toll on the players.
"Based on stereotypes that are totally untrue and I do not agree with, you would maybe-not be a very good driver..."
"Oh man am I a woman?!"
by Scott Coleman on Sep 4, 2010 3:03 AM EDT up reply actions
That's a point I tried to make recently
About Lowe and his tendency to put us behind early. Naturally, all I got in return was saberdogma that runs are runs and it doesn’t matter when you score them.
Both of them tend to drop the team behind the proverbial 8 ball early and it really becomes tiresome for the rest of the team to have to fight out of that situation time and again.
"It was the worst celebration of all time. I got lost in the moment." - Brian McCann
This.
At this point, I couldn’t care less about what the stats say about Lowe or KK. Neither are good pitchers, and they’re a plague on this team right now. I pray they get better, but it’s not looking very likely.
"Based on stereotypes that are totally untrue and I do not agree with, you would maybe-not be a very good driver..."
"Oh man am I a woman?!"
by Scott Coleman on Sep 4, 2010 3:14 AM EDT up reply actions
It's possible
That there are perfectly good reasons for this.
I’ve long maintained that when a guy declines suddenly and precipitiously, there is often an injury involved. We all saw how Jason’s effectiveness was sapped for a long period of time. It seems likely that Lowe has been hurting for a while. Still…right now, and for the foreseeable future, he’s no damn good, at least not in any way that we can count on.
As for Kawakami, it’s possible, as I wrote before, that the long layoff probably didn’t do him much good and it would take him a while to get back up to speed, but, again…right now, on a basic, real world level, he’s not throwing the ball well. He looked like he was tossing BP out there tonight. It doesn’t make him a bad person or minimize the torment it’s probably causing him on a personal level as well as a professional one, but…he’s still not effective right now and we need to acknowledge that and hope something can be done about it, rather than glossing it over.
"It was the worst celebration of all time. I got lost in the moment." - Brian McCann
Long layoff???
Hello, he’s been getting hit around down in AAA for the last month. He’s been getting plenty of work, and he was sporadic at best in Gwinnett!
by Braves12 on Sep 4, 2010 8:35 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Pitching in AAA is not the same as pitching in MLB. If KK were a rookie coming up and making his first appearance, then gave up 5 runs – everyone would shrug it off and say he just needed to adjust to the hitters at the higher level. We’re dealing with basically the same scenario here, given how long it’s been since he’s done any “real” pitching. We just have the misfortune of being short on time for him to make said adjustments at this point in the season.
"Never doubt Derek Lowe's ability to win despite himself."
by EricGreggWasPaidOff on Sep 4, 2010 11:26 AM EDT up reply actions
21 innings in 1 month is “plenty of work?”
This guy wants to suck all the cubs dick can he not have an unbias some what partition reguards
by RWH2 on Apr 5, 2010 10:20 AM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Sep 4, 2010 11:27 AM EDT up reply actions
Yes
5 starts… Prepping for them, the routine, drill work and pens…yes, that is more than he was throwing in Atlanta.
21 innings, they are low for 2 reasons…1) pitch counts 2) his ineffectiveness costs him more.
He gave up 26 hits in 21 AAA innings, and 5 HRs! He had a 4.11 ERA!
In comparison, Brandon Beachy has given up 3 HRs all season, and had a 1.7 ERA.
Maybe you are a KK sympathizer, but there are better options than a 1-10 big league pitcher, and one that gives up 11+ hits per game with a 4+ ERA in AAA.
by Braves12 on Sep 4, 2010 12:26 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
*sigh.
This guy wants to suck all the cubs dick can he not have an unbias some what partition reguards
by RWH2 on Apr 5, 2010 10:20 AM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Sep 4, 2010 12:27 PM EDT up reply actions
Let me get this straight – in a game where the offense managed 1 run (on a hit by the pitcher, no less), you are pissed at the pitcher and blame him???
This guy wants to suck all the cubs dick can he not have an unbias some what partition reguards
by RWH2 on Apr 5, 2010 10:20 AM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Sep 4, 2010 11:27 AM EDT up reply actions
Let me get this straight???
You are defending a guy who is 1-10!!! Also Justincredibul, I’m sure you played baseball…there is an ebb and flow to baseball games. If it is close, both teams feel lke they can win. If down 5-0 before the popcorn vendors can make their rounds, the game gets harder for the team behind on the score board!
by Braves12 on Sep 4, 2010 12:32 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
How can you be a poster on this site and still try to justify your arguments using a Win/Loss record? It boggles the mind.
It’s mind bottling.
This guy wants to suck all the cubs dick can he not have an unbias some what partition reguards
by RWH2 on Apr 5, 2010 10:20 AM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Sep 4, 2010 12:41 PM EDT up reply actions
I did play baseball, and when we were down 5-0 early, that just meant we had to score runs in the remaining innings and keep them from scoring.
Major leaguers don’t give up on a 5 run game in the 3rd inning
and I can defend a 1-10 pitcher because W-L for pitchers is a retarded way to judge them.
This guy wants to suck all the cubs dick can he not have an unbias some what partition reguards
by RWH2 on Apr 5, 2010 10:20 AM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Sep 4, 2010 12:41 PM EDT up reply actions
Retarded
You are a heartless jerk. Be cautious using words like “retarded!” My 8 year old daughter is mentally handicapped. If you used that word in my presence, you would know how offensive you are.
by Braves12 on Sep 4, 2010 12:54 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Sorry about that.
This guy wants to suck all the cubs dick can he not have an unbias some what partition reguards
by RWH2 on Apr 5, 2010 10:20 AM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Sep 4, 2010 12:58 PM EDT up reply actions
Because that was the intent of his post.
Context. Let’s keep things in perspective, shall we? Good God people are so damn over-sensitive it is not even funny.
Further, veiled threats against other posters are offensive.
C Wut I Did Thar?
"Jason Heyward was a Greek philosopher reincarnated as a baseball player." - Don Sutton
I was going to point out the real definition of retarded, and leave it at that, but thought better of it. I can let some things go.
This guy wants to suck all the cubs dick can he not have an unbias some what partition reguards
by RWH2 on Apr 5, 2010 10:20 AM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Sep 4, 2010 4:36 PM EDT up reply actions
You are truly
a better man than I, then.
"Jason Heyward was a Greek philosopher reincarnated as a baseball player." - Don Sutton
1-10
On the teams Ive coached, I’d be fired if I kept running guys out there who were 1-10. I don’t care what stats say about him doing ok and having tough luck, he doesn’t have the mental or physical ability to be a bulldog and bear down to win games and get game winning outs.
by Braves12 on Sep 4, 2010 12:57 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
So, KK is mentally and physically incapable of getting a W?
This may be the most hyperbolous thing I have ever heard.
This guy wants to suck all the cubs dick can he not have an unbias some what partition reguards
by RWH2 on Apr 5, 2010 10:20 AM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Sep 4, 2010 12:59 PM EDT up reply actions
He lacks intangibles
Plus, I know for a fact that we tried to trade him but there were 0 takers. I think 1-10 speaks for itself.
by Braves12 on Sep 4, 2010 1:08 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
How do you know that for a fact? Do you have inside sources?
And, tell me, what intagibles is he lacking? The grit factor is a solid 4.5, the calm-eyes are a perfect 5.0 and the determination and desire to win are a solid 3.7.
This guy wants to suck all the cubs dick can he not have an unbias some what partition reguards
by RWH2 on Apr 5, 2010 10:20 AM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Sep 4, 2010 1:10 PM EDT up reply actions
Won't give up my source
But the organization feels stuck, they either cut him, or stick with him out of the Japan factor.
Actually, they feel just as stuck by Lowe!
by Braves12 on Sep 4, 2010 1:15 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I remember over on the Jags SBN site that this one guy said the exact same kind of stuff you are (I have sources, I know what nobody else knows, etc) about Del Rio getting fired. Needless to say, I am unimpressed or convinced of your post.
This guy wants to suck all the cubs dick can he not have an unbias some what partition reguards
by RWH2 on Apr 5, 2010 10:20 AM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Sep 4, 2010 1:17 PM EDT up reply actions
*nor convinced.
This guy wants to suck all the cubs dick can he not have an unbias some what partition reguards
by RWH2 on Apr 5, 2010 10:20 AM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Sep 4, 2010 1:18 PM EDT up reply actions
That's fine
Watch what happens in the off season! KK will no longer be in Atlanta. But, that’s pretty obvious, isn’t it?
by Braves12 on Sep 4, 2010 1:25 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
It is obvious. But there is no way that there are no takers for him.
I was hoping we would trade him at the deadline – it is only fair to him – but to say that nobody wants him because everyone thinks he ZOMGSUX is stupid.
This guy wants to suck all the cubs dick can he not have an unbias some what partition reguards
by RWH2 on Apr 5, 2010 10:20 AM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Sep 4, 2010 1:29 PM EDT up reply actions
That would be ideal, but I honestly think there is a bigger market for KK than Lowe – salary being the biggest factor.
This guy wants to suck all the cubs dick can he not have an unbias some what partition reguards
by RWH2 on Apr 5, 2010 10:20 AM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Sep 4, 2010 2:48 PM EDT up reply actions
KK would be great on the West Coast. Put him in LA or San Diego, and he’d be great.
"Based on stereotypes that are totally untrue and I do not agree with, you would maybe-not be a very good driver..."
"Oh man am I a woman?!"
by Scott Coleman on Sep 4, 2010 4:43 PM EDT up reply actions
I might agree
Except that all of them are making tens of millions of dollars just to hit baseballs, and they’ve all been doing that for a really long time. If their makeup was so bad that they hit terribly just because they’re demoralized because their pitcher sucks, they would all have washed out a long time ago.
by SS451 on Sep 4, 2010 3:08 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Except that all of them are making tens of millions of dollars just to hit baseballs, and they’ve all been doing that for a really long time.
So why is it they never score for KK? They seem to score for all of our other pitchers, with the exception of Hanson for a month or so. We are, after all, the 2nd best offensive team in the NL.
"Based on stereotypes that are totally untrue and I do not agree with, you would maybe-not be a very good driver..."
"Oh man am I a woman?!"
by Scott Coleman on Sep 4, 2010 3:17 AM EDT up reply actions
Blood curse
"Never doubt Derek Lowe's ability to win despite himself."
by EricGreggWasPaidOff on Sep 4, 2010 11:26 AM EDT up reply actions
Kawakami’s worst innings, statistically, are the 3rd, 5th, and 7th.
Even if we are losing early, why does that mean we don’t score for him? Is the team simply shrugging their shoulders and giving up?
Looking at the first 3 innings this year, Kawakami has given up the following in his starts: 0, 0, 0, 3, 2, 4, 1, 0, 2, 0, 3, 4, 0, 5, 5, 0. Keep in mind these are runs scored, not earned runs.
Some bad starts up there, but this is our 5th starter. He’s put the team behind pretty badly in 4 starts, but has also blanked the opposition 7 times and still has no offense.
Stop making excuses for the offense not doing its job.
There is a noticable downward trend there
Also, part of a pitcher’s job is to minimize the damage from mistakes, even if they’re not of his own making. Yes, it sucks when your defense or some whim of happenstance, forces you to record 4 or 5 outs rather than 3, but that is what you have to do sometimes in order to win. Not to get a win. For the team to win.
I don’t really buy into the implication that since some of those big innings include unearned runs (looking at his gamelog, your first 5 there was against the Rays on June 15, when only 2 of them were earned), he’s essentially blameless and can happily put his feet up, secure in the knowledge that he did all he could. That’s another piece of sabermetrics that has gravitated from “useful tool to help understand how things unfold” over to the column for “ready made excuse.”
"It was the worst celebration of all time. I got lost in the moment." - Brian McCann
“That’s another piece of sabermetrics that has gravitated from "useful tool to help understand how things unfold" over to the column for "ready made excuse."”
I’m a little confused by this statement. The concept of earned run vs. unearned run is sabermetrics? I fail to see how pitching well enough to get outs but giving up runs due to your supporting defense can be construed as “not doing enough to win.”
In Kawakami’s 15 starts there have been 16 errors, three of them his own, so we’ll call it 13. Subtracting Hudson’s own 3 errors, in his 28 starts there have been 15 errors.
So not only does Kawakami boogie-man the offense, he also somehow destroys the defense.
So because he’s our 5th starter, he gets an excuse? Shouldn’t every pitcher be treated the same Last I checked, you don’t get points for being a certain type of pitcher in the Major Leagues. And I’m pretty sure the opposing teams could care less too.
Also, those numbers aren’t very good at all, and that’s only in the first three innings. And as you stated in the post, his worst innings, statistically, are the 3rd, 5th and 7th. So if he’s giving up those runs before two of his three worst innings, what does that mean for our club?
So in other words, he’s given up more than 3 runs by the time the 3rd inning rolls around in 6 of his 16 starts (37.5%), and he still hasn’t reached two of his three worst innings? Yikes.
"Based on stereotypes that are totally untrue and I do not agree with, you would maybe-not be a very good driver..."
"Oh man am I a woman?!"
by Scott Coleman on Sep 4, 2010 3:41 AM EDT up reply actions
‘Worst inning’ was determined by batting average. ERA isn’t broken down by inning on B-R and I didn’t feel like digging any further.
To the poster above, I never implied he could ‘put up his feet,’ but when your defense AND offense let you down, how can you call for the pitcher’s head?
I used the “#5 starter” because he’s not very good, and pretty much every team has a “not very good” starter in their rotation.
Your original assertion that this is no longer “bad luck” still does not hold up. We can go back and forth about how bad Kawakami is, but I’m not really concerned with that. It’s the superstitious, “old school,” Joe Morgan-esque nature of this statement, on a site that is usually very smart and level headed.
I’m wondering what prompted you to choose this start to make this decision and not his last one. Did these three innings just really prove his curse?
I'm not exactly calling for his head.
Obviously, his season record isn’t reflective of what he’s done on the mound over the course of the year but that’s an abstraction, and a largely irrelevant one at this point. He’s on a downward trend and he really shouldn’t be on the mound for another start, especially considering how important they’re becoming. Nearly any alternative would be preferable at this point.
"It was the worst celebration of all time. I got lost in the moment." - Brian McCann
No, every pitcher should not be treated the same. The Phillies don’t expect Blanton to pitch like Halladay, and we shouldn’t expect KK to pitch like Hudson.
You are sounding more and more ignorant on this particular subject.
This guy wants to suck all the cubs dick can he not have an unbias some what partition reguards
by RWH2 on Apr 5, 2010 10:20 AM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Sep 4, 2010 11:29 AM EDT up reply actions
This.
"Never doubt Derek Lowe's ability to win despite himself."
by EricGreggWasPaidOff on Sep 4, 2010 11:31 AM EDT up reply actions
You’ve become completely irrational in this thread. I expect better from an author of the site.
"Never doubt Derek Lowe's ability to win despite himself."
by EricGreggWasPaidOff on Sep 4, 2010 11:30 AM EDT up reply actions
Thank you for being one of the few rational people in this thread.
"Never doubt Derek Lowe's ability to win despite himself."
by EricGreggWasPaidOff on Sep 4, 2010 11:29 AM EDT up reply actions
That's not true at all.
Think about all the games were Kawakami only gave up 0-2 runs and still took the loss. Those games didn’t involve early deficits for the team to overcome. They just don’t score when he pitches for some reason.
"Never doubt Derek Lowe's ability to win despite himself."
by EricGreggWasPaidOff on Sep 4, 2010 11:22 AM EDT up reply actions
KK has given up 7 first inning runs in 15 starts – before last night’s game.
This guy wants to suck all the cubs dick can he not have an unbias some what partition reguards
by RWH2 on Apr 5, 2010 10:20 AM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Sep 4, 2010 11:26 AM EDT up reply actions
Ok, so let’s get a point of agreement out: KK is kind of a lousy pitcher, and I hope we see very little of him down the stretch.
Now, the point of disagreement: no, KK is not boogeda boogeda bad voodoo JINX JINX JINX causing the offense to score fewer runs when he is on the mound. Unless you can posit a plausible causal mechanism, then yes it IS just bad luck, the correlation is meaningless. So everytime I whisper to these dice before throwing them this evening, they come up sixes. Is my whispering causing it? No, because I’m not a sorcerer. And neither is KK.
+1
"Never doubt Derek Lowe's ability to win despite himself."
by EricGreggWasPaidOff on Sep 4, 2010 11:32 AM EDT up reply actions
I think at this point, we have to assume it’s not just bad luck with him. He’s getting the team down early, and they’re just giving up. He’s lousy at recaps and really shouldn’t be doing them anymore.
"Never doubt Derek Lowe's ability to win despite himself."
by EricGreggWasPaidOff on Sep 4, 2010 11:33 AM EDT up reply actions
That's what I was thinking too.
"Based on stereotypes that are totally untrue and I do not agree with, you would maybe-not be a very good driver..."
"Oh man am I a woman?!"
by Scott Coleman on Sep 4, 2010 11:54 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Sorry. The joke was there. I still enjoy your contributions to the site, even if you are being completely irrational in this thread.
"Never doubt Derek Lowe's ability to win despite himself."
by EricGreggWasPaidOff on Sep 4, 2010 12:08 PM EDT up reply actions
Eh, can I have one irrational thread a month please?
"Based on stereotypes that are totally untrue and I do not agree with, you would maybe-not be a very good driver..."
"Oh man am I a woman?!"
by Scott Coleman on Sep 4, 2010 12:16 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
The truth of the matter is
that everyone here knew KK was going to screw up even the day before he made his start. The only thing he did differently was get an RBI for the Braves. Other than that, every one of us saw this coming and were just praying that the Phillies would lose too. Of course they didn’t. So now it looks even worse because Bobby kinda “gave up” on that game by throwing auto-loss in there and we lost just like everyone thought we would.
here's a way to look at the KK situation
take his annual salary divided by the runs he allows over a year. the resulting number is certainly the lowest on the team. makes you feel better – right………NOT The man is what 41 years old. When a player starts getting to that age – any year the skills could just go downhill – which they have. the Braves are not the only team that fall into this trap. every major league team does the same thing. SEE where Hampton is trying to make a comeback. Its low percentage. Loved it when Tampa Bay went to the WS couple of years ago. had a new first year owner that said – wait a minute we’re going to run this different.
KK is nowhere near 41 years old. Perhaps you’re mixing him up with Saito. RACIST!!
"Never doubt Derek Lowe's ability to win despite himself."
by EricGreggWasPaidOff on Sep 4, 2010 11:35 AM EDT up reply actions
I LOL’d.
This guy wants to suck all the cubs dick can he not have an unbias some what partition reguards
by RWH2 on Apr 5, 2010 10:20 AM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Sep 4, 2010 11:35 AM EDT up reply actions
Your right
KK is only 35. Saito is 40. Still they both have seen their better days. Nothing racist in saying a players skills generally decline as they get older. Happens to all of them. Chipper is not the same player he was 10 years ago and i compared him years ago to a modern day Mantle- hits from both sides for average and power. gives you everything he has every day.
KK has not pitched well this year. nothing racist about that comment.
Facepalm...
You completely missed the joke.
"Never doubt Derek Lowe's ability to win despite himself."
by EricGreggWasPaidOff on Sep 4, 2010 1:08 PM EDT up reply actions
he wasnt really calling you racist it was a joke because you confused one Japenese pitcher with another…
he was clearly joking
"No. Lonely people mixing with one another? Breeding? Creating an even lonelier generation? You're not even allowing natural selection do its work. Pssh. You're like the guy who invented the seat belt."
Dwight Schrute
I understand the fact that
Bobby love his veterans and Lowe and KK have ridiculously bad contracts, but come on!!!!! Do you to f’ing win or do you want to trot them out and be their cheerleader because their mommies didn’t love them enough when they were younger???!!! STOP PITCHING LOWE AND KK!!!!! I’m so glad Philly is now only a game behind and the Braves to face Johnson tonight… This is so friggin awesome
"I wasn’t thinking about it. That’s the worst celebration of all time. I didn’t know what to do. I got lost in the moment." - Brian McCann
by HansonManCrush on Sep 4, 2010 7:37 AM EDT via mobile reply actions
And the team has how many remaining starters left to pitch in their stead?
"Never doubt Derek Lowe's ability to win despite himself."
by EricGreggWasPaidOff on Sep 4, 2010 11:35 AM EDT up reply actions
This team
Is starting to look defeated, like they can’t handle the pressure anymore… I feel like all their holes are starting to be exposed at once…
"I wasn’t thinking about it. That’s the worst celebration of all time. I didn’t know what to do. I got lost in the moment." - Brian McCann
by HansonManCrush on Sep 4, 2010 7:40 AM EDT via mobile reply actions
I feel your panic. I don’t think the holes are all being exposed, I just think this particular version of the Braves is putrid on the road. The Phillies are bringing the heat with their home loaded schedule coming off the west coast road trip and b/c the Braves play like such crap on the road.
by CharlotteChop on Sep 4, 2010 7:51 AM EDT up reply actions
I'm just speaking out of frustration
I love this team and will continue to regardless of how they do… But they’re better than this… WAY better…
"I wasn’t thinking about it. That’s the worst celebration of all time. I didn’t know what to do. I got lost in the moment." - Brian McCann
by HansonManCrush on Sep 4, 2010 8:35 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
They just took 3 out of 4 from the Mets, then you freak out over them losing the first game to the Marlins? Really?
"Never doubt Derek Lowe's ability to win despite himself."
by EricGreggWasPaidOff on Sep 4, 2010 11:37 AM EDT up reply actions
You mean, after we win 3 out of 4 games in dominating fashion, you think that 1 loss means they can’t handle the pressure?
WE JUST TOOK 3 OF 4 FROM THE METS!!!
Geez, you guys are ridiculous.
This guy wants to suck all the cubs dick can he not have an unbias some what partition reguards
by RWH2 on Apr 5, 2010 10:20 AM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Sep 4, 2010 11:33 AM EDT up reply actions
Heh.
I just posted something similar to this. I guess I should’ve read farther down.
"Never doubt Derek Lowe's ability to win despite himself."
by EricGreggWasPaidOff on Sep 4, 2010 11:37 AM EDT up reply actions
Great minds, my friend. Great minds.
This guy wants to suck all the cubs dick can he not have an unbias some what partition reguards
by RWH2 on Apr 5, 2010 10:20 AM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Sep 4, 2010 11:39 AM EDT up reply actions
Farns' 1-2-3
Even the Florida announcers were bagging on Farns last night (paraphrasing) “He’s a great pitcher to have in games like this, he’s got a rocket arm and when there’s no pressure, he pitches great.”
Owning the Patriots since September 9, 1960
Bottom line...
The 40 man roster has been mismanaged because there are better starters in AAA in Beachy, Diamond, and Redmond, but Codield, Ortegano, and KK block their big league existence.
Grow a pair Wren. You let Resop go, let another guy go who wasn’t as good as him, and bring up a good arm to spot start.
One good start from a guy like Beachy couldbe the 1 game difference we need to even make the wild card.
by Braves12 on Sep 4, 2010 8:41 AM EDT via mobile reply actions
just wont happen
they get their rocks all twisted in the “gotta have a veteran” game. lets see the combined salary of KK,lowe,and Mclouth is what something like $28M this year. Probably about the same next year. GREAT Investment in the future – right
Wild Card
The Phillies are really playing well, and we suck on the road. It might be time to start paying attention to the Giants games. We’ve pitched well this season, but other than Hudson our starting pitching has been Jeckle and Hyde recently.
give beachy a chance
kk in my opinion is DONE. GIVE THE KID A CHANCE! he can do no worse.
It’s always possible to do worse. I assure you.
"Never doubt Derek Lowe's ability to win despite himself."
by EricGreggWasPaidOff on Sep 4, 2010 11:39 AM EDT up reply actions
I'd rather have
A 24 year old kid dealing and making just league minimimum per day of service lose for us than a washed up mid 30s pitcher who is 1-10 and raking us of millions!
by Braves12 on Sep 4, 2010 12:43 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
KK will be making millions whether he pitches or not.
This guy wants to suck all the cubs dick can he not have an unbias some what partition reguards
by RWH2 on Apr 5, 2010 10:20 AM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Sep 4, 2010 12:45 PM EDT up reply actions
That's the problem
He’s not worth it and it’s obvious, thus the demotion to AAA. They are playing international politics by keeping him around b/c they don’t want to get a bad name in Japan. Well, while protecting KK, they might not make the playoffs b/c he wins .09 % of the time while losing .91% of the time. Those are bad odds in all aspects of sports and life.
by Braves12 on Sep 4, 2010 1:03 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
If they cut KK, he still gets paid. There is nothing they can do about that – other than trade him.
And, according to the metrics, KK has not pitched very far below his $6M contract. Had he stayed in the rotation, I bet he would have been worth his contract and then some.
You do know he is only making $6M, right? Oliver Perez and others like him are making much more than that to be actually bad pitchers.
This guy wants to suck all the cubs dick can he not have an unbias some what partition reguards
by RWH2 on Apr 5, 2010 10:20 AM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Sep 4, 2010 1:06 PM EDT up reply actions
Yes
But you do know we haver better options in our organization, right? Beachy, Diamond, Redmond…3 steady arms.
I’m a believer that Beachy has out performed 3-4 big leaguers and deserves a shot.
by Braves12 on Sep 4, 2010 1:12 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Beachy, Diamond, and Redmond
are better options because clearly they have mlb pitching experience and also know what it is like to pitch in a playoff race
Well
It’s obvious that our current 5th option is getting the job done…right…right…huh, no????Hmm….
by Braves12 on Sep 4, 2010 1:18 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
After 1 game? seriously?
This guy wants to suck all the cubs dick can he not have an unbias some what partition reguards
by RWH2 on Apr 5, 2010 10:20 AM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Sep 4, 2010 1:19 PM EDT up reply actions
How do you know that they are better options? They are all unknowns.
Did you even know who Beachy was before the past 3 months?
This guy wants to suck all the cubs dick can he not have an unbias some what partition reguards
by RWH2 on Apr 5, 2010 10:20 AM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Sep 4, 2010 1:16 PM EDT up reply actions
Did you know who KK was...
Before the past 9 months?
Sure, I’ve followed Beachy for awhile. I’ve known about him long before the Braves blogosphere and prospect projectors knew about him. The front office has liked him for awhile, too!
by Braves12 on Sep 4, 2010 1:22 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Yes. I knew who he was a good 15 months ago when we signed him.
This guy wants to suck all the cubs dick can he not have an unbias some what partition reguards
by RWH2 on Apr 5, 2010 10:20 AM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Sep 4, 2010 1:23 PM EDT up reply actions
I knew Beachy was considered a “riser” about 15 months ago when the “boys” decided to make “Beach” a starter in Myrtle Beach and considered his stuff and development to be big league worthy…which is why he got an early invite to Spring Training.
by Braves12 on Sep 4, 2010 1:31 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Ok. That still doesn’t mean he is a known commodity who we can say is a better option than KK.
This guy wants to suck all the cubs dick can he not have an unbias some what partition reguards
by RWH2 on Apr 5, 2010 10:20 AM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Sep 4, 2010 1:33 PM EDT up reply actions
KK Simply Messed Up
He stood up Blossom Power-Puff at the Happy-Lucky Disco Dragon Dance
and she prayed to Amatsu-Mikaboshi to hound him for the rest of his days.
as you can see, he is doomed. I am not even sure the Seven Gods of Good Luck could help him now
What we need are MLB Official Braves Uniforms with Velcro names and numbers!
I know that a few of the advanced stats say differently, but the fact is that Kenshin Kawakami is not a very good pitcher anymore. Whenever he starts, it seems like we’re constantly behind from the early innings.
This argument is just straight up ignorant.
KK pitched great from the end of may to the end of june – his last 8 starts were pretty dang good, with the exception of 2 games. he gave up only 3 earned runs or less in 6 of 8 starts, including 2 shutouts. His walks were down, and his whip was 1.33 with an ERA of 3.40. Then, he was banished to the bullpen on 16 June, and didn’t throw again until 26 July. Then, he went to the minors where he got a whopping 21 innings over 5 games.
Nobody should be shocked that KK had difficulty locating. And I still maintain that is isn’t his fault.
This guy wants to suck all the cubs dick can he not have an unbias some what partition reguards
by RWH2 on Apr 5, 2010 10:20 AM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Sep 4, 2010 11:21 AM EDT reply actions
Alright, Kenshin...i mean, Justin.
The base paths belonged to me, the runner. The rules gave me the right. I always went into a bag full speed, feet first. I had sharp spikes on my shoes. If the baseman stood where he had no business to be and got hurt, that was his fault. -Ty Cobb
by Jurrjens' Surgeons on Sep 4, 2010 11:28 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Um…ok? I mean, I didn’t make those stats up…
This guy wants to suck all the cubs dick can he not have an unbias some what partition reguards
by RWH2 on Apr 5, 2010 10:20 AM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Sep 4, 2010 11:33 AM EDT up reply actions
you said what i needed to say….so now i have nothing to say,except for this which i have already said,but that created this to say,as the phrase before and the phrase before that and the phrase before that one….ughhh etc.???
by AvoidTheDolphin on Sep 4, 2010 11:35 AM EDT up reply actions
He has his good starts
but when he’s bad, he’s BAD and more he’s more often bad than good.
The base paths belonged to me, the runner. The rules gave me the right. I always went into a bag full speed, feet first. I had sharp spikes on my shoes. If the baseman stood where he had no business to be and got hurt, that was his fault. -Ty Cobb
by Jurrjens' Surgeons on Sep 4, 2010 11:36 AM EDT up reply actions
He isn’t more often bad than good. What’s with the hyperbole regarding Kawakami? Why do normally rational people just lose their shit when they see a bad W/L record?
The same has been true with quite a few Brave’s players – Melky, KJ, Glaus just to name a few.
This guy wants to suck all the cubs dick can he not have an unbias some what partition reguards
by RWH2 on Apr 5, 2010 10:20 AM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Sep 4, 2010 11:38 AM EDT up reply actions
Seems to be just the three of us defending KK in this thread….so lonely….
"Never doubt Derek Lowe's ability to win despite himself."
by EricGreggWasPaidOff on Sep 4, 2010 11:42 AM EDT up reply actions
That’s more than enough. The arguments against him are weak enough that you don’t really need a lot of fire power to counter them.
This guy wants to suck all the cubs dick can he not have an unbias some what partition reguards
by RWH2 on Apr 5, 2010 10:20 AM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Sep 4, 2010 11:44 AM EDT up reply actions
i suppor KK, but sometimes I just choose to sit out a battle, with people who clearly refuse to think rationally. Other times i cant let it stnad (i am probably irrational in choosing my battles…:) )
"No. Lonely people mixing with one another? Breeding? Creating an even lonelier generation? You're not even allowing natural selection do its work. Pssh. You're like the guy who invented the seat belt."
Dwight Schrute
This.
"Never doubt Derek Lowe's ability to win despite himself."
by EricGreggWasPaidOff on Sep 4, 2010 11:41 AM EDT up reply actions
See, that’s just it. He is bad when he is off. VERY bad. But, that hasn’t happened as often as you claim. he has been good to very good in at least half of his starts, and decent in most of the others.
This was a bad game for him. I don’t deny that at all. However, he has pitched a whopping total of 22 innings since JUNE 16. That is entirely the organization’s fault, and not KK’s.
When Meds went down, we were screwed – not because KK was not the pitching option, but because KK was now the pitching option who hadn’t pitched in over a month.
This guy wants to suck all the cubs dick can he not have an unbias some what partition reguards
by RWH2 on Apr 5, 2010 10:20 AM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Sep 4, 2010 11:38 AM EDT up reply actions
When he’s bad, he’s no more BAD than Derek Lowe. And neither of them have had starts as bad as Hanson’s or JJ’s BAD starts this year.
"Never doubt Derek Lowe's ability to win despite himself."
by EricGreggWasPaidOff on Sep 4, 2010 11:41 AM EDT up reply actions
That’s an interesting point. Good catch.
This guy wants to suck all the cubs dick can he not have an unbias some what partition reguards
by RWH2 on Apr 5, 2010 10:20 AM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Sep 4, 2010 11:42 AM EDT up reply actions
Also, if Hudson gets shelled, or JJ, or Tommy, we don’t get a ton of “ZOMG WE’RE SCREWED!!! WE’RE NEVAR GOONA WIN ANUTHER GAMZ!!!” wailing like we see with KK and to a lesser extent, Lowe.
The hyperbole last night was just shameful.
"Jason Heyward was a Greek philosopher reincarnated as a baseball player." - Don Sutton
I like how everyone is freaking out that the lead is down to one game – even thought it hasn’t been any greater than 3 for almost a month.
This guy wants to suck all the cubs dick can he not have an unbias some what partition reguards
by RWH2 on Apr 5, 2010 10:20 AM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Sep 4, 2010 11:54 AM EDT up reply actions
After this series, we get the Pirates
then 13 of the final 22 games in Atlanta; where, last time I checked, the Braves were pretty good.
"Jason Heyward was a Greek philosopher reincarnated as a baseball player." - Don Sutton
And we have 6 games against the only team that matters – and I like our chances.
This guy wants to suck all the cubs dick can he not have an unbias some what partition reguards
by RWH2 on Apr 5, 2010 10:20 AM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Sep 4, 2010 12:02 PM EDT up reply actions
LOL +1
"Based on stereotypes that are totally untrue and I do not agree with, you would maybe-not be a very good driver..."
"Oh man am I a woman?!"
by Scott Coleman on Sep 4, 2010 12:39 PM EDT up reply actions
Did you really laugh out loud to that?
This guy wants to suck all the cubs dick can he not have an unbias some what partition reguards
by RWH2 on Apr 5, 2010 10:20 AM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Sep 4, 2010 12:45 PM EDT up reply actions
Yep. But let me guess, you didn’t think it was funny, and therefore it’s the wrong of me to laugh?
"Based on stereotypes that are totally untrue and I do not agree with, you would maybe-not be a very good driver..."
"Oh man am I a woman?!"
by Scott Coleman on Sep 4, 2010 12:48 PM EDT up reply actions
No, it isn’t wrong to laugh. I laugh at things other people don’t laugh at all the time – like farts and stuff.
This guy wants to suck all the cubs dick can he not have an unbias some what partition reguards
by RWH2 on Apr 5, 2010 10:20 AM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Sep 4, 2010 12:49 PM EDT up reply actions
doesnt matter
that was then – this is now. your in a playoff race. who do you want on the mound right now. Every game counts. enough games left where you could lose the division race and even get knocked out of the wild card. Lowe is hurt. different rotation when you get to the playoffs but you have to get there.
If Hanson or JJ have another bad game, are you going to say the same thing?
What about the fact that we are in a playoff race, and our offense scored 1 run – on an RBI by the pitcher? What about the fact that our offense has scored 3 runs in the past two games? That is a bigger problem than KK right now.
This guy wants to suck all the cubs dick can he not have an unbias some what partition reguards
by RWH2 on Apr 5, 2010 10:20 AM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Sep 4, 2010 12:30 PM EDT up reply actions
I agree
the offense is not a high octate offense. because of that the pitching is critical. every pitcher can have a bad game but who would you rather have on the mound. KK or hanson /JJ. may not be all his fault – but who do want on the mound knowing its a tight race and every win or loss could be meaningful.
Our offense has scored the 3rd most runs in the league.
This guy wants to suck all the cubs dick can he not have an unbias some what partition reguards
by RWH2 on Apr 5, 2010 10:20 AM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Sep 4, 2010 1:11 PM EDT up reply actions
but you just said
we have bigger problems that KK. The strenght of this team has been the pitching staff all year long. From here on every game could be critical. You just defended the guy by saying the offense only scored three runs in the last two games. make up your mind. stick with a position and defend it. You flip flopped. WHEN you get to the playoffs- every team has good pitching and good pitching limits run scoring. So what do you think makes sense from hereon.
I didn’t flip flop. Both our pitching and hitting has been top 5 in the league. But, that top 5 offense doesn’t score when KK is in the game. Also, I bet we have an equal number of percentages of bad games from KK and bad games from the offense. Why do you choose to hate on KK?
This guy wants to suck all the cubs dick can he not have an unbias some what partition reguards
by RWH2 on Apr 5, 2010 10:20 AM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Sep 4, 2010 7:20 PM EDT up reply actions
because
we dont win when he pitches. If it gets to a one game series who do you on the mound? team doesnt score when he pitches- i dont know why. only interested in results.
Then you have admitted that you are irrational.
This guy wants to suck all the cubs dick can he not have an unbias some what partition reguards
by RWH2 on Apr 5, 2010 10:20 AM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Sep 5, 2010 4:21 AM EDT up reply actions
*2nd most runs in the league!
"Based on stereotypes that are totally untrue and I do not agree with, you would maybe-not be a very good driver..."
"Oh man am I a woman?!"
by Scott Coleman on Sep 4, 2010 4:43 PM EDT up reply actions
sounds like
you guys are fine with keeping KK in the rotation for the duration. We score plenty of runs, on average, and because we score the 2nd most runs in the league that KK will pan out .
doesnt matter
that was then . this is now. your in a playoff race. who do you want on the mound. enough games left to lose the title and get knocked out of the wildcard. Lowe is hurt and the team doesnt not win when KK starts. thats a fact.
Should I reply to this slightly different version of your previous post? I guess you could just see my response above…
This guy wants to suck all the cubs dick can he not have an unbias some what partition reguards
by RWH2 on Apr 5, 2010 10:20 AM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Sep 4, 2010 12:46 PM EDT up reply actions
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