SB Nation Atlanta Editor's Pick
Phillies 'still' to take Division?
by jayjaxon on Sep 2, 2010 4:02 PM EDT
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PrintLately there has been a lot of talk about how the Braves are largely ignored by the media. Buster Olney and Tim Kurkjian of ESPN are probably the only ones that give Atlanta any credit for the remarkable year they have had. Everyone else seems to think it has more to do with the Phillies injuries and less to do with the great play of the Braves. It’s just like the Phillies and their fans to complain about injuries and never give credit where credit is due.
Yes, Philadelphia has had a slew of injuries this year. But Atlanta lost Jair Jurrjens for a significant amount of time at the beginning of the season. Chipper Jones is out for the year. So is Kris Medlen. Heyward, Diaz, and Prado have also missed time. What did Atlanta do while they were gone? They won. They continued to win even though Yunel Escobar wasn’t hitting and Kawakami was giving up a crooked number every game. They won despite the lack of big names that according to ESPN is the formula for winning championships. They keep winning. But it’s Philadelphia that gets all the credit. I have been hearing for over a month now that the Phillies are going to overtake the Braves and take the division. Just last week I heard Eric Karabell (An insufferable Phillies homer) say that he has Atlanta missing the playoffs all together. Just last night Aaron Boone said the Philles will take over the division.
If the Yankees or Red Sox ever won 14 division titles, we would still be hearing about it. But since the Braves did it, there is always an asterisk attached to it saying they only won a single World Series during that time. The Phillies went to consecutive World Series and all of a sudden they are the greatest team anyone has ever seen. The Braves went to 5 of them in less than 10 years. Philly has a long way to go to even come close to that.
Guys like Chipper Jones are never looked at the way Derek Jeter is. Jeter has got to be the most overrated POS I have ever seen. Jones has to be the most underrated and it’s because he is a Brave. If Jeter played for the Royals, nobody would care about him. Jones is not only one of the greatest switch-hitters of all time, but what he does for the Atlanta organization off the field speaks volumes for what kind of guy he is. Few people know that Chipper has restructured his contract several times to allow Atlanta to pick up more and better players.
So let’s get to the matter at hand. Here is the comparison between Atlanta and Philadelphia.
The easiest thing to start with is the record. Philadelphia stole a game in the standings earlier this season against Florida and Atlanta still leads the division by 3 games. Here is a short comparison of some of the important statistics:
The Braves own a 78-55 record. That is tops in the National League. On top of that they have the best home record in Major League Baseball. Guess where the Phillies are going for their final 3 games? Atlanta has a run differential of +132 while Philly stands at +76. The Braves have a better batting average and ERA as well. They are batting .262 while the pitching staff boasts a 3.52 Earned Run Average. That is good for 3rd in all of baseball. Philly is batting .255 and giving up 3.75 runs a game. That's still not bad but Atlanta is bests them in both categories. This doesn’t even include the 527 Walks and .343 on-Base percentage Atlanta has. By comparison Philadelphia has managed 447 walks and their OBP is at .324.
The Braves probably have the best bench in baseball. Their bullpen has to rank among the elite as well. These so-called experts have never let up when it comes to their prediction that the Phillies will take the NL East and the entire National League. After only 3 seasons they can't be stopped apparently. But only after the second NL crown for Atlanta, they were always being picked to lose the Division to someone else. But they kept winning. 14 years in a row.
The greatest thing about being a Braves fan is getting to say I told you so at the end of 2010.
This FanPost does not express the views or opinions of Talking Chop.
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The Phils will be in first place soon, blah blah blah.
I’ve been hearing that ever since we took over first!
ESPN is a joke.
"Tony Gwynn made sacrifices. Cal Ripken made sacrifices. I'm not sure Derek Jeter made sacrifices given the ungodly deep pockets the Yankees have." - Chipper Jones
by MBL1 on Sep 2, 2010 4:11 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
ESPN = the
East coast
Sox/
Philly/
New York Network.
Haven’t watched Baseball Tonight since the MLB Network debuted and I don’t plan on it any time soon.
"If you were going to make a Mount Rushmore of managers, Bobby's one of them."
-Mike Scioscia
by The Keith Lockhart Era on Sep 2, 2010 4:18 PM EDT up reply actions
Mitch Williams is mre biased than anyone on ESPN though
Following the infamous "astroglide" comment and the challenge for use of word:
no way the Astros glide into the playoffs.
by BrockSamson on Aug 29, 2010 3:26 PM PDT
Mitch Williams
loves him some Jason Heyward though
Watching Bobby Cox pick boogers since 1995
by a hooter's baby on Sep 3, 2010 10:53 AM EDT up reply actions
pssh, who doesn’t
"Tony Gwynn made sacrifices. Cal Ripken made sacrifices. I'm not sure Derek Jeter made sacrifices given the ungodly deep pockets the Yankees have." - Chipper Jones
by MBL1 on Sep 3, 2010 3:14 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
oh goodness I jinxed it. someone delete this fanpost. It’s my fault if the Phillies get into first….and the fanposters’. I’m an idiot.
"Tony Gwynn made sacrifices. Cal Ripken made sacrifices. I'm not sure Derek Jeter made sacrifices given the ungodly deep pockets the Yankees have." - Chipper Jones
by MBL1 on Sep 3, 2010 10:41 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
It’s not as if they are absurdly behind us and they have the experience. When we were winning division titles every year, they gave us the benefit of the doubt as well. I am not condoning the lack of respect the Braves have gotten this year on a National standpoint, but I can see why some do believe the Phillies will eventually overtake the Braves, but I don’t agree.
Twitter: @Ben_Duronio
I agree
that they are not way behind Atlanta is most categories and they are certainly within striking distance of the division. But everyone is making like they are a far superior team when they clearly are not. I wouldn’t mind so much if the ‘experts’ at least considered Atlanta on the same level as Philly but they don’t.
by jayjaxon on Sep 2, 2010 4:42 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I think games in the standings count more.
"If I have asthma, they won't let me scuba. And if I can’t scuba, then what’s this all been about?? What am I working toward??"
"You look like you should be married to one of the San Diego Padres."
I was with you
until the Jeter comment. He is vastly overrated, but he is not a POS. He is actually a pretty good ballplayer.
"If I have asthma, they won't let me scuba. And if I can’t scuba, then what’s this all been about?? What am I working toward??"
"You look like you should be married to one of the San Diego Padres."
Still, he nailed it with the “If Jeter played for the Royals, nobody would care about him.”
I wrote a novel, it's about baseball, you should buy it:
http://www.amazon.com/Four-C-B-Wilkins/dp/1449578454/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1257720610&sr=1-1
www.dropoutproductions.com
Exactly.
Take Ichiro for example. He is every bit as good as Jeter, probably better, but he still never gets any credit because he plays for a crappy small-market team with a terrible GM. If Ichiro played in New York his hole U.S. career, he would be as big of a superstar as Jeter is now.
The only time the Mets win is in the offseason.
...
People talk about Ichiro all the time. The love him on ESPN. I think him not getting more attention has to do more with the language barrier/lack of access to reporters.
"If I have asthma, they won't let me scuba. And if I can’t scuba, then what’s this all been about?? What am I working toward??"
"You look like you should be married to one of the San Diego Padres."
You're right
He is not a real POS. But I can probably name a different shortstop every season that is better than him. Yet he gets his ass kissed everywhere he goes.
It’s the calm eyes.
This guy wants to suck all the cubs dick can he not have an unbias some what partition reguards
by RWH2 on Apr 5, 2010 10:20 AM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Sep 2, 2010 4:52 PM EDT up reply actions
don't forget...
he is the bi-racial angel!!!
POS is strong but
He has several things working against him
1. he is a Yankee….
2. he is the el capitan of the Yankees
3. He is overpaid for his production/position
4. did I mention he is a Yankee?
it just felt right and the chance to go to the postseason is hard to pass up. I’ve always respected their orginization… and Bobby…I’m excited. I’m looking forward to it...Derrek Lee (at press conference sayiing he had been traded to the Braves)
Let's be honest
Jeter is incredibly clutch
"Baseball is like church. Many attend but few understand."
thought I would help…
his 162 game avg has him hitting 17 HR in over 650 ABs….his playoff career he has hit 20 HR… in 138 games and around 550 ABs.
His OPS is 30 points higher in the playoffs, which is entirely due to his increased power.
you can say a lot of stuff bad about Jeter, starting with his defense for one, but you can’t discount the fact that the man perfoms well when it matters most. He is the anti Arod.
FYI if he played for the Royals, people would still care, he is a HOF no matter what team he plays for. However, obviously he gets more credit for being ont he Yankees. But that has a lot to due with him having a hand full of rings and being a perennial contender. I think Jeter is overrated and that he wouldn’t be as big of a deal if he played for the Royals or another team, but we need to stop discrediting how good he really he, because he is good, very good. There is something to be said for a guy who hits 300 every year, has an OBP north of 375…and OPSs around 800. He plays around league avg defense ( I am feeling generous) and steals bases with remarkable efficiency…He is a HOF by any measure and is completely deserving…don’t let hate for the Yankees color your perception of how good he is.
"No. Lonely people mixing with one another? Breeding? Creating an even lonelier generation? You're not even allowing natural selection do its work. Pssh. You're like the guy who invented the seat belt."
Dwight Schrute
the man perfoms well when it matters most
This.
I understand hating the Yankees, but this guy has been nothing but a class act his whole career and his stats speak for themself.
"Baseball is like church. Many attend but few understand."
well class act is a bit of a stretch…he is a bit of a philanderer…although that is more based on an individual’s viewpoint on what constitutes a class act.
"No. Lonely people mixing with one another? Breeding? Creating an even lonelier generation? You're not even allowing natural selection do its work. Pssh. You're like the guy who invented the seat belt."
Dwight Schrute
Jeter has is vastly overrated but he is still a pretty good guy.
That being said ESPN follows the northeast coast teams more. Boston is 8 games out and they still get covered every BBTN.
Think of it this way all season ESPN said that the Padres would fall back to reality and miss the playoffs.
None of what ESPN says really bothers me. Most of they’re analysts are former players and they all carry biases. At the end of the season when we have the WS won we won’t get much attention either.
Every team named the Phillies and Yankees.
"Tony Gwynn made sacrifices. Cal Ripken made sacrifices. I'm not sure Derek Jeter made sacrifices given the ungodly deep pockets the Yankees have." - Chipper Jones
by MBL1 on Sep 2, 2010 5:14 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
i completely agree….i don’t get why no one understands that ESPN caters to the teams that matter most to the casual fan…that is the big market teams Boston, NY and Philadelphia (Chicago would be here if they didnt suck so bad)…they don’t cover the Rays very much either, and they are ridiculously good.
and don;t tell me that ATL is a big market, because in baseball terms it isn’t. there are a lot of great ATL fans, but they don’t sell out like BOS, NYY, and PHI…which is a sign why ESPN covers them more. ESPN caters to who they think will brin gin the most money, because they are a business.
"No. Lonely people mixing with one another? Breeding? Creating an even lonelier generation? You're not even allowing natural selection do its work. Pssh. You're like the guy who invented the seat belt."
Dwight Schrute
I agree wholeheartedly with you sentiment
My blood pressure has been on the upswing this entire playoff race and not really because of the actual race. Everywhere I turn, some national “expert” (idiot) is declaring the Phillies the World Series favorite and they are just now healthy and so on. I just can’t stand the constant love and EXCUSES they give them while the BRAVES have been in first since late May while suffering season ending injuries to Chipper and Meds, complete ineptitude from the outfield for most of the year (when Heyward was hurt and doing not much), Prado’s injury, Jurrjens’ injury, EOF with mono, and so on. I mean, its the lack of respect that our team is getting because we don’t have superstars, just a great team.
Ok I feel a little better
"The Dos Equis guys want me to be the least interesting man in the world" - Drama
by BravesDawg16 on Sep 2, 2010 5:17 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
I would just like to call attention to Ryan Howard's August OPS
.386
LOLOLOLOLOLOL
Valued customer of Boris' Baseball Boutique
that looks like almost infante avg.
Heyward, Prado and BMac OBP > Howard OPS
of course, BMac it´s a easy out and Howard not.
but...
that’s due to an incredibly small sample size (43 AB’s in 11 games) right off of an injury where he had no rehab starts to ‘knock off the rust’…
compare that .386 to september’s .881
if you can use small sample size then so can i. i think howard’s performance history in sept. speaks for itself.
by PHIGHTINPHILS on Sep 7, 2010 2:04 PM EDT up reply actions
Jeter as an OPS?
seriously? statistically, yes. i agree. however, he is the Patton of baseball. his will is something that is beyond asinine. he WON the WS in 1996 for them when we were up 2-0. never underestimate Jeter. something about him wins. i hate him, but to call him a OPS makes you look like a Homer tool.
by apoxonbothyourhouses on Sep 2, 2010 5:39 PM EDT reply actions
"Jeter has got to be the most overrated POS I have ever seen."
This is where you lost me
Go USA, Braves, BU Terriers, Irish, Caps, Colts, Hoyas, NU Cats, Wizards, DC United, Washington Freedom
BU Hockey: National Champions 1971, 1972, 1978, 1995, 2009
Yeah, the praise he gets from the media outlets might be a bit much at times, but the guy is a legit HOF player, no matter what team he was on. And everything I’ve seen about him indicates that he’s a guy that respects the game and seems like a decent person off the field.
To be fair...
Who hasn’t given Jessica Alba herpes??
-C
It’s rough to sit through these games and not have someone that can’t hit a Ball?
Can't he calm the herpes with his smiling eyes?
Don't kiss an ass if it's in the process of shitting on you.
"…aren’t worthy enough to hold his (Pujols) ass cheeks apart while Playboy models wipe him with thousand dollar bills after he craps out the cure to whatever previously-incurable disease." by royhobbs 1/7/09
The last straw for me on him
was when he became the Yankees hits leader. I get that it was a good thing. But does anyone else get that kind of treatment for becoming the hits leader for any other team? When he gets to 3,000 hits, then I’ll be impressed. But I call him overrated because he is overrated. POS took it a bit far. But he is still sitting up in NY getting his c**k sucked by everyone while the other players at his position work their ass off for no recognition.
He’s been the best player at his position over the span of his career. Who are these other guys that deserve more praise?
"They should just give two ROYs in the NL and skip the AL this year." - KLaw
Hanley, Tulo, Drew, Castro… Jeter’s OBP this year is a measly .331. Yes, you read that right, he’s not even getting on base as well as Melky. His OPS is an anemic .705. His RBI and runs are high because he’s surrounded by big bats, so his counting stats look good, but the overall picture isn’t actually all that pretty. On any other team he’s mentioned in the Yuniesky Betancourt tier of shortstops.
He's a career .314 hitter...
If you didn’t want to hate him because he was a Yankee you would get this.
Go USA, Braves, BU Terriers, Irish, Caps, Colts, Hoyas, NU Cats, Wizards, DC United, Washington Freedom
BU Hockey: National Champions 1971, 1972, 1978, 1995, 2009
Really??
Garciparra played eight full seasons (and that’s stretching it by considering 120 games as a full season).
His production when healthy and young is undeniable, but Jeter has 15 consecutive seasons of high-quality ball. Garciparra’s WAR fell off a cliff after 2003, only one season above a 1.0 and a couple where he was negative (tho hurt as well during some of those, obviously).
Jeter’s OPS dipped below .800 on just four seasons, including this year and last. Even then, it’s always been higher than .750 prior to this season. Until this season, he’s never had a full year with less than 2.5 WAR.
Jeter hasn’t good advanced fielding statistics throughout his career, but Nomar’s are flat-out atrocious.
If it’s fair to project how a player MIGHT have done if healthy his entire career, I can see your argument. But if you look at the numbers themselves, Jeter’s are much better over the long haul.
-C
It’s rough to sit through these games and not have someone that can’t hit a Ball?
In all honesty
The all-time Yankees hits leader is actually rather impressive when you consider who he had to pass to get there. I hate the Yanks as much as anyone else, but becoming their all-time hits king isn’t like any other team record.
"If I have asthma, they won't let me scuba. And if I can’t scuba, then what’s this all been about?? What am I working toward??"
"You look like you should be married to one of the San Diego Padres."
Yes... being the all time hits leader on a team with 27 world championships...
And a million hall of famers and legends… completely unimpressive….
/sarcasm
Go USA, Braves, BU Terriers, Irish, Caps, Colts, Hoyas, NU Cats, Wizards, DC United, Washington Freedom
BU Hockey: National Champions 1971, 1972, 1978, 1995, 2009
sorry, but I don´t know all your English acronyms and initialisms
what it “POS” means?
"Philadelphia stole a game in the standings earlier this season"
I seem to remember a game with the Tigers, and a third strike being called that was a good 8 inches off the plate that would have tied the game up. Its amazing how many Braves fans forget about that one.
Honestly I think both teams make the playoffs, and that the division will be decided in the 6 games they play against each other. Also ESPN has been a terrible network for at least 7-8 years now, and BBTN is the biggest joke I’ve ever seen. Thank God for MLB Network.
I remember that game
but it would have only tied the game. The Phillies/Marlins game would have been over. That game with the Tigers would have gone either way had Damon walked.
how about pythag?
and this? link
Valued customer of Boris' Baseball Boutique
by VivaLosBravos on Sep 2, 2010 6:19 PM EDT up reply actions
I don’t think lucking into wins is really an argument you want to make.
Valued customer of Boris' Baseball Boutique
by VivaLosBravos on Sep 2, 2010 6:22 PM EDT up reply actions
…and not to interject, but I think you’re conflating arguments. When you claim the Phillies stole a game because of the umps, it’s warranted to point out the Damon game as a means of saying, “Umps f*^$ shit up all the time, and it usually tends to even out.” Expanding the argument to which teams have outplayed their pythag isn’t really relevant to the discussion.
For what it’s worth, I think any knowledgeable Phillies fan will tell you that the Braves are a damn good team this year — hell, I picked them to win the division before the season started. I understand the tendency to establish a “nobody believes in us!” rallying cry, but come now, you’re not the Padres.
by PhillyFriar on Sep 3, 2010 10:47 AM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
pretty much this
well put Phillies fan.
by Andy Braves Fan on Sep 3, 2010 12:24 PM EDT up reply actions
I still think that complaining about strikes 8 inches off the plate is ridiculous coming from any braves fan…we had MAddux and Glavine who lived on getting strike calls on pitches that were that far off the plate…Umpires make mistakes and sometimes they give the pitcher the benefit of the doubt…I am positive we have gotten a fair share of those calls this year.
"No. Lonely people mixing with one another? Breeding? Creating an even lonelier generation? You're not even allowing natural selection do its work. Pssh. You're like the guy who invented the seat belt."
Dwight Schrute
I don’t care about media attention all that much anymore. I used to get really mad and every once in awhile I still do, but if we make the playoffs and go on a run, the braves fans will have the last laugh. Also, the Phillies have rightly earned the respect they have recieved because they have won the NL Pennant the past two years. The Braves will get the respect they deserve but it will happen in time.
Now tell me he’s a piece of shit with a strait face.
"Baseball is like church. Many attend but few understand."
Jeter has been the only Yankee that I can truly stand.
I honestly dont see where the animosity comes from.
The base paths belonged to me, the runner. The rules gave me the right. I always went into a bag full speed, feet first. I had sharp spikes on my shoes. If the baseman stood where he had no business to be and got hurt, that was his fault. -Ty Cobb
I rather like Mo Rivera, too. Nobody beyond those two though.
"Baseball is like church. Many attend but few understand."
how can you not like Brett Gardner? so underrated and so un-Yankee….he should clearly be replaced by a veteran with half the talent of Gardner and 10x the salary…(this will most liekly happen this year, and Gardner will go to a place where he is better appreciated)
"No. Lonely people mixing with one another? Breeding? Creating an even lonelier generation? You're not even allowing natural selection do its work. Pssh. You're like the guy who invented the seat belt."
Dwight Schrute
In the early 2000s ESPN always picked Atlanta to finish third in the division. They always won the division, sometimes by 15 games.
Did I see Philly fans care about Atlanta when virtually our entire pitching staff was on the DL two years ago? Nope. I hope the Braves stay hot and pound those guys out of the playoffs.
Fantastic
Post… Someone finally put in to words what I am thinking every second of every day… My obsession has finally been put down on paper (or computer screen for that matter)…
F**K….THE….PHILLIES… Bunch of no-class bums in my opinion….
I’d like to see that likes of Howard, Utley, Halladay, and Werth just try to make sacrafices that even resemble those that Chipper. Hudson, and others have made over the years…
"I wasn’t thinking about it. That’s the worst celebration of all time. I didn’t know what to do. I got lost in the moment." - Brian McCann
Chipper has modified his contract so many times and been “team first” his entire career, I don;t think I really need to list everything he’s done for this organization… Hudson took a STEEP discount to stay in Atlanta and gives half his money to charity… Does anyone in Philly do that? No… Howard is too busy standing at homeplate like a thug watching his 320 ft HR balls fly out as if he hit them 500 ft, Victorino is too busy sprinting in from the OF to argue balls and strikes because he has such a good view of home plate.. and Jason Werth is too busy growing his beard and waxing his dreadlocks, and cursing at fans to care about playing the game with any professionalism…
"I wasn’t thinking about it. That’s the worst celebration of all time. I didn’t know what to do. I got lost in the moment." - Brian McCann
by HansonManCrush on Sep 3, 2010 9:17 AM EDT up reply actions
I see. I have no idea how Chipper’s contract has been structured/restructured (I’m a Phillies fan, you see, so I don’t care) but you’ll have to forgive me if I’m not terribly moved by the sacrifices of a guy who has made some $140 million dollars in his career. Much like you’re probably not impressed by Roy Halladay taking a below-market extension to sign with the Phillies.
Your nonsequiturs about the other Phillies are points well taken though. I now hate my team.
As you should haha… Man, a Phillies fan? I come to this blog to converse with my fellow Brethren… If I wanted to converse with Phillies fans I would exit my cubicle and walk around the office or call my buddies over for beers… I am on here to avoid the painful reality and lonliness that surrounds me… As a Braves fan, I am an outsider up here in Phil-ville
"I wasn’t thinking about it. That’s the worst celebration of all time. I didn’t know what to do. I got lost in the moment." - Brian McCann
by HansonManCrush on Sep 3, 2010 9:50 AM EDT up reply actions
$20 million a year is hardly below market
"I wasn’t thinking about it. That’s the worst celebration of all time. I didn’t know what to do. I got lost in the moment." - Brian McCann
by HansonManCrush on Sep 3, 2010 9:56 AM EDT up reply actions
Compare Chipper's salary to others
like your own Howard. You can only hope Howard is as productive at the plate as Chipper was, yet he sets a high bar with his extension, while Chipper has gone down over the year.
Ryan Howard’s (admittedly ludicrous) deal has nothing whatsoever to do with whether Roy Halladay’s deal is below market or not.
If it's below value, it ain't by much...
he’s the third highest paid pitcher in baseball after Sabathia and Santana. And when he signed his deal, he wasn’t as young as either Sabathia or Santana, nor was he on the open market.
“Have you seen his body type?”
Valued customer of Boris' Baseball Boutique
by VivaLosBravos on Sep 3, 2010 1:51 PM EDT up reply actions
Roy Halladay rhp
3 years/$60M (2011-13), plus 2014 option
3 years/$60M (2011-13), plus 2014 option
signed extension with Philadelphia 12/16/09
11:$20M, 12:$20M, 13:$20M, 14:$20M option
2014 option guaranteed with all of the following:
225 IP in 2013,
415 IP in 2012-13, and
Halladay is not on disabled list at end of 2013 season
http://mlbcontracts.blogspot.com/2005/01/philadelphia-phillies_18.html
$20 million a year might be at market if you pitch for the Yankees
"I wasn’t thinking about it. That’s the worst celebration of all time. I didn’t know what to do. I got lost in the moment." - Brian McCann
by HansonManCrush on Sep 3, 2010 12:57 PM EDT up reply actions
below I mean... if you pitch for NY
"I wasn’t thinking about it. That’s the worst celebration of all time. I didn’t know what to do. I got lost in the moment." - Brian McCann
by HansonManCrush on Sep 3, 2010 12:57 PM EDT up reply actions
Number 3 on the list... how is this below market??
Starting pitchers
The highest-paid active starting pitchers, by average annual value:
C.C. Sabathia, $23,000,000 (2009-15)
Johan Santana, $22,916,667 (2008-13)
Roy Halladay, $20,000,000 (2011-13)
Carlos Zambrano, $18,300,000 (2008-12)
Barry Zito, $18,000,000 (2007-13)
Jake Peavy, $17,333,333 (2010-12)
A.J. Burnett, $16,500,000 (2009-13)
John Lackey, $16,500,000 (2010-14)
Justin Verlander, $16,000,000 (2010-14)
Jason Schmidt, $15,666,667 (2007-09)
Felix Hernandez, $15,600,000 (2010-14)
Derek Lowe, $15,000,000 (2009-12)
Roy Oswalt, $14,600,000 (2007-11)
Mark Buehrle, $14,000,000 (2008-11)
Roy Halladay, $13,333,333 (2008-10)
Ryan Dempster, $13,000,000 (2009-12)
Chris Carpenter, $12,700,000 (2008-11)
Bronson Arroyo, $12,500,000 (2009-10)
Kevin Millwood, $12,000,000 (2006-10)
http://mlbcontracts.blogspot.com/2000/05/most-lucrative-contracts.html
"I wasn’t thinking about it. That’s the worst celebration of all time. I didn’t know what to do. I got lost in the moment." - Brian McCann
by HansonManCrush on Sep 3, 2010 1:01 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
It’s below market because the best starting pitcher in baseball could, if he had wanted to, simply waited a year and gotten a deal both longer and larger than the one he signed. Teams are always willing to pay a premium for pitching, let alone for an in-his-prime ace who’s willing to sign for only three years.
Also, this.
Speculative… Market value is what the market is willing to pay… I could argue my house is worth $500,000 because of all the sweat equity… doesn’t mean I’m gonna get that in the market..
"I wasn’t thinking about it. That’s the worst celebration of all time. I didn’t know what to do. I got lost in the moment." - Brian McCann
by HansonManCrush on Sep 3, 2010 1:25 PM EDT up reply actions
plus the cost of my time and $$ spent on upgrades… again.. the market values it how they want to value it
"I wasn’t thinking about it. That’s the worst celebration of all time. I didn’t know what to do. I got lost in the moment." - Brian McCann
by HansonManCrush on Sep 3, 2010 1:33 PM EDT up reply actions
doesn’t mean I’m gonna get that in the market..
which means 500,000 is clearly not the “market” value
market value signifies an objective standard for what something is worht…Objectively speaking, if Doc was on the open market he would presumably get more than $20M…his market value is similar to the contract signed by Sabathia and Santana, (becuase he is just as good as them)…which means he signed a deal below market value, by about 2-4M (which isnt a big deal, but it is still below market value)
"No. Lonely people mixing with one another? Breeding? Creating an even lonelier generation? You're not even allowing natural selection do its work. Pssh. You're like the guy who invented the seat belt."
Dwight Schrute
Or he could have gotten hurt...
or struggled and gotten less money. He also would be in entering his mid 30s, when teams aren’t prone to give pitchers big money, long term deals. Considering all the factors involved, it seems pretty close to the right size deal.
He also would be in entering his mid 30s, when teams aren’t prone to give pitchers big money, long term deals.
You just gave Derek Lowe $60 million less than 2 years ago, and you’re saying that somebody wouldn’t have given Halladay $60 million this offseason?
Roy Halladay signed a contract extension today that will guarantee him $60 million over three years, with a vesting option that would pay him another $20 million if he pitches enough innings in the first three years of the deal…
…[O]ne of the best players in baseball took somewhere between 35-50 percent of his market value to facilitate a trade, leaving somewhere between $60 and $100 million in guaranteed money on the table.
And shouldn't have...
nor was it the same yearly amount as was given Halladay. I disagree with BP on what he theoretically “left on the table”.
Then you might want to look at the other examples in that piece (Sabathia for $23 million per, Santana for $23 million per, Lackey and Burnett at $16.5 million per), consider that those contracts range from one to three years longer than the one Halladay signed, and reassess that position. Or read Matt Swartz’s article at BP estimating his value at $95 million for a 3-year deal. Or re-check the Fangraphs value numbers I posted above.
I don’t see a point to arguing this any further, as it’s irrelevant to pretty much everything else in this thread. Sorry, TC mods, for the tangent.
No
PhillyFriar is right.
He left money on the table, but not annual money. He was in position to demand more YEARS, and thus more money. You are both mis-interpreting this. In annual amount, Halladay didn’t give up anything. But 3 years with a vesting option is very favorable on a pitcher, whereas other pitchers of his ilk have gotten significantly more money because their contracts are guaranteed over a greater number of years. He could have doubled his salay because he was in position to demand 6 guaranteed years.
by Andy Braves Fan on Sep 3, 2010 4:15 PM EDT up reply actions
Thank you.
Alternatively, I’d argue that if Halladay hit the open market and said, “Hey, I only want to sign a 3-year deal with a vesting option,” someone would easily have ponied up with more than $20 million per.
I doubt that second part
$20 million per year is pretty much as high as it goes for pitchers, maybe up to $23 for a year or two (maybe the option year), but I can’t see any pitcher hitting A-Rod money.
by Andy Braves Fan on Sep 7, 2010 11:30 AM EDT up reply actions
Actually...
there were no “non sequiturs” used in his post, because it all made perfect sense.
"It breaks your heart. It is designed to break your heart. The game begins in the spring, when everything else begins again, and it blossoms in the summer, filling the afternoons and evenings, and then as soon as the chill rains come, it stops and leaves you to face the fall alone." A. Bartlett Giamatti
I didn’t intend to get involved in this (or any) thread, but lemme just ask you something: if Ryan Howard wasn’t black, would he still be a thug? For honesty’s sake, why don’t you just come out and say what you really mean instead of speaking in this transparent code?
Pessimism of the intellect, optimism of the will.
Wow...
I called the whole team thugs, not just Ryan Howard… Its nice of you though to label me a a racist because I don’t like the Phillies… Classy…
"I wasn’t thinking about it. That’s the worst celebration of all time. I didn’t know what to do. I got lost in the moment." - Brian McCann
by HansonManCrush on Sep 3, 2010 10:35 AM EDT up reply actions
“Howard is too busy standing at homeplate like a thug”
I’m not labeling you a racist because you don’t like the Phillies. A lot of Phillies fans can be pretty damn racist, and I am fine calling them on it. I am calling you a racist because you sound a heck of a lot like one.
Pessimism of the intellect, optimism of the will.
I’m sorry, where I come from THUG = Bully, antagonist, instigator, not BLACK… But inferring that I’m racist based on a single paragraph is genius… Well done detective… guess going forward I’ll keep my thoughts to myself for fear that some asshole is liable to lable me a member of the KKK… Thanks
"I wasn’t thinking about it. That’s the worst celebration of all time. I didn’t know what to do. I got lost in the moment." - Brian McCann
by HansonManCrush on Sep 3, 2010 10:47 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Well, now that you have backtracked to this point, I will just point out that I don’t really care about “where you come from”. In the world we live in TODAY, using a term like “thug” to refer to a black person carries deep-seated racial connotations.
It’s pretty simple really: if you don’t want to be labeled as a racist, don’t say things that people could interpret as racially offensive. Also, you can be racist without being in the KKK.
Pessimism of the intellect, optimism of the will.
Thanks for teaching me how to be socially and politically correct… I had no idea how until today…
"I wasn’t thinking about it. That’s the worst celebration of all time. I didn’t know what to do. I got lost in the moment." - Brian McCann
by HansonManCrush on Sep 3, 2010 11:05 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Being literal is key with yoy I guess...
Synonyms for Thug are hooligan, ganster, mugger, brute and ruffian… I don’t see black… I’m tired of talking about this… Think what you want about me I really couldn’t give a shit
"I wasn’t thinking about it. That’s the worst celebration of all time. I didn’t know what to do. I got lost in the moment." - Brian McCann
by HansonManCrush on Sep 3, 2010 11:17 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Okay, semantics aside for a second, how is Ryan Howard any of those things? It’s amusing watching you hoist yourself by your own petard, it really is.
Pessimism of the intellect, optimism of the will.
I'll help you out.
Replace “thug” with any of the following:
@sshole, punk, jerk, tard, prick, douche.
That’s what he meant. Stop being a PC idiot. And it is annoying to see Howard admire every home run he hits with his .300 OPS this month.
Yes, I am the problem because I insist on people “PC.” That makes a lot of sense.
Also, how do you know what he meant?
Pessimism of the intellect, optimism of the will.
thank you
"I wasn’t thinking about it. That’s the worst celebration of all time. I didn’t know what to do. I got lost in the moment." - Brian McCann
by HansonManCrush on Sep 3, 2010 12:14 PM EDT up reply actions
First of all, how can you say semantics aside when your entire argument has been based on the meaning of a word? Second, I’m done voicing my opinion so people like you can stop accusing me of be a descendant of Hitler… Thanks
"I wasn’t thinking about it. That’s the worst celebration of all time. I didn’t know what to do. I got lost in the moment." - Brian McCann
by HansonManCrush on Sep 3, 2010 12:14 PM EDT up reply actions
No one accused you of being a descendent of Hitler. (But I do love the way you use hyperbole to make yourself appear like a victim in this exchange. Goebbels maybe, but not Hitler.) I accused you of using racially insensitive language. I said “semantics aside” because I wanted to prove that not only could calling him a thug be interpreted as racially insensitive, but also that he doesn’t even fit your own definitions of the word.
Pessimism of the intellect, optimism of the will.
Goebbels maybe, but not Hitler
this made me laugh…nice use of history to make a tongue in cheek jab…well played phillie fan well played….
btw this guy pretty much destroyed the concept of all phillie fans being idiots…he went Joseph Goebbels. on your ass…that takes a decent knowledge of history.
and for the record, I completely disagree that thug is racially insentive…if you want I can complie a list of people that are thugs (starting with my roomates my second year of college…both white dudes…yet they were still thugs or punks)
"No. Lonely people mixing with one another? Breeding? Creating an even lonelier generation? You're not even allowing natural selection do its work. Pssh. You're like the guy who invented the seat belt."
Dwight Schrute
“Thug” only refers specifically to black people by others who make it so. Since you took offense to the word, and immediately assumed that he was talking about a black person, that says more about your racial bias than anything else.
Thug is used to describe a myriad of people, not just black people.
This guy wants to suck all the cubs dick can he not have an unbias some what partition reguards
by RWH2 on Apr 5, 2010 10:20 AM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Sep 3, 2010 12:34 PM EDT up reply actions
Are you that friggin’ dense? He said it directly in reference to Ryan Howard. It is questionable whether he would have used the same word to refer to a white player. Do you think I am stupid enough not to see what you are trying to do here?
Pessimism of the intellect, optimism of the will.
Okay....
Jayson Werth is a THUG.
"It breaks your heart. It is designed to break your heart. The game begins in the spring, when everything else begins again, and it blossoms in the summer, filling the afternoons and evenings, and then as soon as the chill rains come, it stops and leaves you to face the fall alone." A. Bartlett Giamatti
Okay
This racial debate is going on far longer than necessary, and needs to come to an end. Personally, I don’t agree with HMC’s assessment that Howard is any sort of a thug, but at the same time, there was no need to inject race into any critique. We hear enough about “Black Jesus,” or “The Venezuelan National Team plus Brian McCann.”
It’s a shame what has happened to the word “thug,” because to me, it used to be the generic term for any generic bad guy in old video games like Double Dragon, regardless of race, religion, color, pixels, affiliation. But throughout the last decade or so, it’s been so heavily thrown around in the NBA and NFL, which unfortunately are known to be very heavily majority African/African-American populated. Despite the fact that athletes like Jeremy Shockey, Brad Miller, Kimo Von Oelhoffen, and even back to Bill Romanowski and Bill Laimbeer, and our very own (unfortunately) Kyle Farnsworth, were historically labeled as thugs as well, it seems to have developed this racial stigma towards athletes in all professional sporting organizations, because the Stephen Jacksons, Allen Iversons, Kenyon Martins, Michael Irvins, Rodney Harrisons, Delmon and Dmitri Young, and now Nyjer Morgan, were called thugs more recently than others. And unfortunately, instead of focusing on the belligerence, defiance, tattoos, bad attitudes and misdemeanor behavior of the aforementioned names, it’s the skin color.
There’s no need to be accusing others of being racists, and I’m kindly asking that this debate be dropped, because it stopped being about Ryan Howard after about the third rebuttal, and an argument over who’s Hitler (or Joseph Goebbels), and the definition of a word, and nothing to do about baseball.
And to get my requisite “rival smack” in here, I’ve yelled at my television, calling both Chase Utley and Shane Victorino “thugs,” before. Both, when they bowled over Brian McCann at the plate on separate occasions, but the latter causing McCann a DL-trip concussion. I’m aware that both were legal, comes-with-the-job hits, but were outbursts of emotion, and “thug” seemed like the appropriate adjective to use at the moment, based on behavior and action, and not the color of skin. I guess what it boils down to is that everyone has a different opinion of how the word “thug” is to be construed, and I personally find it unfortunate that it’s apparently become this word that was once fairly innocuous has mutated into one that is capably being racially insensitive to others.
No wonder nobody likes you, Tuttle... everything's a (Pujols) damn debate.
by royhobbs on Sep 3, 2010 2:24 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
I'm racist...
Against Green Abobos from Double Dragon. The only good Green Abobo is a blinking Green Abobo.
-C
It’s rough to sit through these games and not have someone that can’t hit a Ball?
The Phillies were the last NL team to break the color barrier. Just’ sayin…
Valued customer of Boris' Baseball Boutique
by VivaLosBravos on Sep 3, 2010 3:32 PM EDT up reply actions
Wow…really?
This guy wants to suck all the cubs dick can he not have an unbias some what partition reguards
by RWH2 on Apr 5, 2010 10:20 AM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Sep 3, 2010 12:28 PM EDT up reply actions
i feel like this is a recurring theme over in your neck of the woods…
in case you didn’t feel you got a warm welcome…i personally appreciate you coming over here and giving your perspective. Others apperntly don’t feel the same, but such is life.
"No. Lonely people mixing with one another? Breeding? Creating an even lonelier generation? You're not even allowing natural selection do its work. Pssh. You're like the guy who invented the seat belt."
Dwight Schrute
You forgot the part about Werth bangin’ Utley’s woman.
This guy wants to suck all the cubs dick can he not have an unbias some what partition reguards
by RWH2 on Apr 5, 2010 10:20 AM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Sep 3, 2010 12:11 PM EDT up reply actions
Classic MacGruber…
"I wasn’t thinking about it. That’s the worst celebration of all time. I didn’t know what to do. I got lost in the moment." - Brian McCann
by HansonManCrush on Sep 3, 2010 12:28 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I think you mean...
What the Sam Hill
And yes, I am the grammar police.
"It breaks your heart. It is designed to break your heart. The game begins in the spring, when everything else begins again, and it blossoms in the summer, filling the afternoons and evenings, and then as soon as the chill rains come, it stops and leaves you to face the fall alone." A. Bartlett Giamatti
How do you really feel?
Go USA, Braves, BU Terriers, Irish, Caps, Colts, Hoyas, NU Cats, Wizards, DC United, Washington Freedom
BU Hockey: National Champions 1971, 1972, 1978, 1995, 2009
They do this with every team that is not:
-the Phillies
-the Yankees
-the Red Sox
-the Rays
-the Dodgers
And they ignore teams that are having great seasons that aren’t household names like the Padres and the Reds
"That's my teammate, man... That's my quarterback"
by TurnerTheBurner on Sep 3, 2010 10:16 AM EDT reply actions
The Rays!
score one for the little guys
Watching Bobby Cox pick boogers since 1995
by a hooter's baby on Sep 3, 2010 10:59 AM EDT up reply actions
Ok
this post bugs me. Forgive me for defending the evil ESPN with their “clear biases” and such…
But really? Ok, yes, the Yankees and Red Sox get a lot of play on ESPN. Is that because of some bias of the program itself, or is that just a logical result of the fact that NY and Boston are two of the biggest baseball fanbases in the country? I’ll go with the latter. And, as Kingslytut just pointed out, 2 games isn’t a lot. The Phillies players did just all come off the DL just in time for many Braves players to join the DL. That’s just a fact.
Of course, I do hope the Braves maintain their first place status, but it isn’t all that outside the realm of possibility that those crazy evil biased ESPN analyists with all of their expertise and thought might be onto something when they say that the Braves first place situation is tenuous at the moment. That doesn’t mean that the Braves are dead. In fact, I heard Erik Karabell say just THIS week that he thinks that the Braves are making it to October regardless of whether they win the division. Amazingly high praise from that “insufferable Philly homer”.
And, by the way, did YOU pick the Padres to win the NL west? Answer honestly. It wasn’t until recently that I finally came to believe that they were the real deal. This is a team that cut its budget in half and looked like a team that was ready to rebuild this past offseason. Considering that the Dodgers and Rockies were last season’s NL West Champions and NL wild card winners and remained largely unchanged from last year, it wasn’t crazy at all to think that either or both would overtake the Pads eventually. Hell, the Giants still might do just that, what with the reigning NL Cy young from the past 2 years and an offense that somehow works…
I will continue to read ESPN, and watch Baseball tonight. I will switch back and forth between ESPN and MLB network, just to get more opinions on the game in general. Don’t hate ESPN for understanding its market.
by Andy Braves Fan on Sep 3, 2010 12:56 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
From Rob Neyer's most recent chat
Ryan (Ashburn,VA)
Padres, Braves, & Reds. Three teams that nobody really gave a chance. Do you think all three hang on?
Rob Neyer (12:03 PM)
I do. But I think it’s worth separating those three teams. The Braves were rightly regarded as legitimate contenders, before the season. The Reds were considered up-and-comers with a chance to surprise some people. And the Padres … well, they were supposed to finish last.
by Andy Braves Fan on Sep 3, 2010 1:11 PM EDT reply actions 6 recs
See
we fans of rival teams can agree on things.
by Andy Braves Fan on Sep 3, 2010 1:18 PM EDT up reply actions
Neyer is excellent.
Valued customer of Boris' Baseball Boutique
by VivaLosBravos on Sep 3, 2010 2:00 PM EDT up reply actions
Stark/Kurkjian are my favorites
Stark for his weird baseball knowledge and Kurk for his weird stories. All four are fantastic tho. Def. the best thing ESPN has to offer. Well…that and this.
"If I have asthma, they won't let me scuba. And if I can’t scuba, then what’s this all been about?? What am I working toward??"
"You look like you should be married to one of the San Diego Padres."
ehh
Always thought she was overrated. Just imo tho.
"If I have asthma, they won't let me scuba. And if I can’t scuba, then what’s this all been about?? What am I working toward??"
"You look like you should be married to one of the San Diego Padres."
I do have a grudge against Stark
First he published his book saying that Andruw Jones was the most over-rated player in baseball. I will never say Jones was under-rated, but Stark’s analysis didn’t give Jones enough credit.
Then of course, Stark unanimously declared Strasburg the best thing to ever happen to baseball ever before the guy threw a pitch, and then continued to fawn over the guy’s every move. It was truly disgusting journalism.
I appreciate Kurkjian’s love of the game, but he has a tendency to do the same thing.
by Andy Braves Fan on Sep 4, 2010 10:52 PM EDT up reply actions
My thoughts on Derek Jeter:
I would like to remove his uvula with a Tinker Toy.
That is all.
"Jason Heyward was a Greek philosopher reincarnated as a baseball player." - Don Sutton
I'm happy that my post is the cause for so much conversation
But just remember guys, this is the opinion of one person and one person only. No need to take anything personal here.
Seeing is believing!
When the Braves were winning division title after division title, everyone still doubted they could win one more….glad to see things never change. Even doubting Thomas believed when he finally saw Jesus…The Phillies will believe soon enough that the division belongs to the Braves, after all they have seen Heyward!
Didn’t ESPN pick us to win the WS in 2008? How’d that turn out?
This guy wants to suck all the cubs dick can he not have an unbias some what partition reguards
by RWH2 on Apr 5, 2010 10:20 AM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Sep 3, 2010 3:24 PM EDT reply actions
Forgot about that
But didn’t you know that ESPN HATES the Braves!
It goes along with the fact that Kawakami isn’t a WINNAR!!!
by Andy Braves Fan on Sep 3, 2010 4:18 PM EDT up reply actions
ESPN really does hate the Braves:
http://insider.espn.go.com/mlb/insider/news/story?id=5523776
For those of you without an Insider account, this is a story about Chipper Jones being the best switch hitter in the gam.
Also, Jayson Stark predicted the Braves to go to the world series today.
Can we just stop with this whining now?
This guy wants to suck all the cubs dick can he not have an unbias some what partition reguards
by RWH2 on Apr 5, 2010 10:20 AM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Sep 3, 2010 4:36 PM EDT up reply actions
Every fan of every team
thinks ESPN hates them. Even Red Sox fans complain that ESPN snubs them. The only teams who have a legitimate gripe are the Royals and Pirates.
Watching Bobby Cox pick boogers since 1995
As a Bruins fan, let me say how saddened I still am at the loss of the Whale.
"Jason Heyward was a Greek philosopher reincarnated as a baseball player." - Don Sutton
As a resident of CT
I am especially saddened by the loss of the Whale.
by Andy Braves Fan on Sep 4, 2010 10:44 PM EDT up reply actions
Personally,
I don’t give a rat’s ass what ESPN or any of the media think about our team. Our winning record speaks for itself.
Go Braves! Go Dawgs! Go Falcons!
...did heyjude just use profanity?
"If I have asthma, they won't let me scuba. And if I can’t scuba, then what’s this all been about?? What am I working toward??"
"You look like you should be married to one of the San Diego Padres."
/banned
Valued customer of Boris' Baseball Boutique
by VivaLosBravos on Sep 3, 2010 8:00 PM EDT up reply actions
/writes Poppycock on the wall
"Jason Heyward was a Greek philosopher reincarnated as a baseball player." - Don Sutton
Delete this post. Now. It’s a jinx! :(….
"Tony Gwynn made sacrifices. Cal Ripken made sacrifices. I'm not sure Derek Jeter made sacrifices given the ungodly deep pockets the Yankees have." - Chipper Jones
by MBL1 on Sep 3, 2010 10:39 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
Gonna come down to the Final Series with the Phils
Phils won tonight and again the Bravos cannot win in Miami. Man all this hard work just to fall apart at the end of the season. What we have a 1 game lead now anyway that is not even the issue. KK sucks as I have said all along ~ tonights proves what I have stated on here since he signed with ATL. Secondly D. Lee is offering nothing and old and tired please put Glaus back at 1B Bobby to stay. I still hope we win the division but I think the wildcard is our only shot at getting in the playoffs at this point, we just looked tired as a team as a whole. Worn out, no energy in the past couple of series. Can someone give the Braves so 5 hr energy before each game LOL.
Come on Braves wake up out their you are blowing it !
by Holty_Panthers_Fan on Sep 4, 2010 12:10 AM EDT reply actions
wow
I can’t wait to read the responses to this.
"If I have asthma, they won't let me scuba. And if I can’t scuba, then what’s this all been about?? What am I working toward??"
"You look like you should be married to one of the San Diego Padres."
there won’t be many, he often has posts like this and they are recognized and ignored.
"No. Lonely people mixing with one another? Breeding? Creating an even lonelier generation? You're not even allowing natural selection do its work. Pssh. You're like the guy who invented the seat belt."
Dwight Schrute
HPF has been involved in his fair share of debates.
"If I have asthma, they won't let me scuba. And if I can’t scuba, then what’s this all been about?? What am I working toward??"
"You look like you should be married to one of the San Diego Padres."
thats like having a battle of the wits with an individual who comes to the fight unarmed.
"No. Lonely people mixing with one another? Breeding? Creating an even lonelier generation? You're not even allowing natural selection do its work. Pssh. You're like the guy who invented the seat belt."
Dwight Schrute
I don’t know about you guys, but I see who posted, and I skip right over it.
This guy wants to suck all the cubs dick can he not have an unbias some what partition reguards
by RWH2 on Apr 5, 2010 10:20 AM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Sep 4, 2010 1:22 AM EDT up reply actions
You sir….fail.
no energy in the past couple of series
Did you watch the Mets series?
"Baseball is like church. Many attend but few understand."
Yeah, but all those games were played at like, 2:30. You know what 2:30 feels like, don’tcha?
"Jason Heyward was a Greek philosopher reincarnated as a baseball player." - Don Sutton
What do you do? Run for the coffee…..grab another soda. But how long does that lost?
"Tony Gwynn made sacrifices. Cal Ripken made sacrifices. I'm not sure Derek Jeter made sacrifices given the ungodly deep pockets the Yankees have." - Chipper Jones
by MBL1 on Sep 4, 2010 4:15 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
the braves get tons of positive media
and for what it’s worth, i think they will get the wild card and the phillies will win the division. i just don’t think the braves as good as the phillies right now.
---infinity
you jinxed us you traitor
"It's here, it's here, it's finally here" :Strongbad on football season
by southman on Sep 8, 2010 5:12 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
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