SB Nation Atlanta Editor's Pick
My feelings on Second-Tier MLB players
by frozendesert on Jul 8, 2010 6:14 PM EDT
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PrintI'll make my point straight away: I say we forgo the offensive additions if we cannot get a consistently upper-tier to elite CF.
I’m still convinced that Hart is having nothing more than a career year, and will become prohibitively expensive next year; the same year when arbitration raises to our foundation players, including JJ, EOF, Prado, and Escobar, are due. The other problem is floor. Hart’s floor is Jeff Francoeur, circa 2008-2009. Under no conditions should we have such a guy on our hands next year. I don’t think that he is worth even Mike Dunn, let alone Mike Minor. For the same reason that many are for trading Minor (above-average unexpected performance), we should be against trading for Hart. A poster on Braves Journal (originally from Talking Chop EDIT: Credit for the stats to Alvaro Andres Pizza Varela ) used this as evidence that playing Hart is actually worse than playing a Hinske/Diaz platoon:
Eric Hinske’s career wRC+ against RHP: 113
Matt Diaz’ career wRC+ against LHP: 139
Corey Hart’s career wRC+: 113
Corey Hart’s career wRC+ against lefties: 129 (Worse than Diaz)
Corey Hart’s career wRC+ against righties: 107 (Worse than Hinske)
Matt Diaz respective UZR and DRS in LF: 7.8 and 3
Eric Hinske respective UZR and DRS in LF: -0.2 and -6
Corey Hart’s career UZR and DRS in RF: -11.6 and 4
So, to sum up a trade for Corey Hart:
1. We trade a pitcher or position player of value from our farm system
2. We receive a player who will play below the level of our current LF platoon.
3. We pay said player near 6 million in arbitration next year.
4. We receive a player who just may implode after playing so far above his head that he become Francoeur V2.
Byrd doesn’t offer enough of an upgrade this year (read: 3.8 % BB. That is worse than Francoeur-eque.) to justify paying him during the time when we need to make deals with our arb-eligible players. This team’s ability to take a walk is the reason that we have an above-average offense this year- we are below average in just about every other category. I don’t think that we should pay the price for a second-tier free swinger in Byrd and expect him to carry us; this type of player will get carved up by the likes of the Padres’, Reds’, and even Mets’ staff. Players who cannot take a walk can become utterly useless against pitchers who know what they are doing. For evidence, take the following link and arrange by Walk %, and take a look at the lines of players who are last in the league- http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=all&stats=bat&lg=all&qual=y&type=1&season=2010&month=0
I read an interesting article a couple of weeks back outlining spending in free agency. This gist of the article was to never over-commit to second-tier players, citing examples of both Derek Lowe and Randy Wolf, if first-tier players are available. It is better to lose money and receive above-average performance from an elite player than it is to lose money and receive average performance from a second-tier player. The article examined the Yankees free agent signings to reach this conclusion. The Yankees usually don't over-commit to second tier players, and so they never have contracts that are huge busts. They always over-commit to elite players; players that have a strong history of elite results as compared to second-tier players who ride one season to big contracts. This way, they are always guaranteed to get at least some value out of their signings, with the high chance of receiving elite-level results. This is in stark comparison to teams that commit to second-tier players, who receive nothing out of the contract if the player plays below his career norms, and only marginal value if the player plays to his career norms.
I think that the same concept applies in trades. If you are going to have to give up talent, go out there and trade high-level prospects for extremely good players rather than give up second-tier prospects for second-tier players. You are going to get results out of the elite player, even if they play below their career norms; whereas, with the second-tier player, you may get nothing if they play below their career norms.
There is also a further point in this- second tier prospects (such as Minor) will always have a chance, no matter how low, to become elite players. Second-tier MLB players will rarely deviate enough to become elite players. Minor probably won’t become the next Wainwright, but I feel that he has a higher chance of becoming elite than Byrd or Hart have of outperforming other Outfielders and becoming elite themselves.
Which brings me to my final point- if you cannot go out and get an elite outfielder (as we do seem to be set at the other positions, for right now), don’t try to compromise. Find an elite player that you can trade for on the market, and go get him. For this, I suggest Cliff Lee. Do we have enough starting pitching? Probably. But can Cliff Lee make enough of a difference to turn us from NLCS runner-ups to World Series Champions? In my opinion, he can. That is also not something that you can say about Byrd or Hart.
Edit: I wanted to add this:
Look at Derek Lowe for 60/4, Randy Wolf for 29.750/3, Jason Bay for 66/4, Ryan Dempster for 52/4, Oliver Perez for 36/3, Milton Bradley for 30/3, Kerry Wood for 20.5/2, Edgar Renteria for 18.5/2, Aaron Rowand for 60/5, Carlos Silva for 48/4, Jose Guillen for 36/3, Luis Castillo for 25/4, even Torri Hunter at 90/5 to a certain degree, Carlos Lee for 100/6, Daisuke Matsuzaka at 103/6, Barry Zito for 126/7, Gil Meche for 55/5, Gary Matthews Jr. for 50/5, Juan Pierre for 44/5, Jeff Suppan for 42/4, and do I have to continue?
All of these guys, except maybe Jason Bay and Torii Hunter, rode mediocrity or mediocrity and one fluke year or early success followed by mediocrity to their contracts. And these were the guys who I could find in about three minutes. Even Jason Bay had WAR season of -.7, 2.9 with the Pirates in 07 and 08 before signing that contract in the 2009 off season with the Mets. Torri Hunter was riding 2.8, 2.3, 2.5, and 3.3 WAR seasons before signing that contract with the Angels. The Red Sox shelled out over 100 million for a guy with absolutely no MLB experience.
Overpaying for mediocrity will hurt your team, as will trading for mediocrity while elite talent is available.
This FanPost does not express the views or opinions of Talking Chop.
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Getting Lee is a pipe dream. It just ain’t gonna happen and even if theoretically possible, would cost us too dearly.
Other than that, I agree with you: Getting a truly “upper-tier to elite CF” is at the top of the Braves’ needs and would dramatically improve our chances to win it all. It could very easily make the difference.
Who are the legitimate options? Franklin Gutierrez. Maybe B.J. Upton. Any others?
Oh
I’m with you there. Getting Cliff Lee means not only competing against five or six other teams that will compile packages for him, but convincing Jack Z. that our package is that much better than any other team’s offer. That means a) low chance of success, and b) high probability of parting with elite talent. My point is that if the Braves are going to make a deal (as they so often have done in this situation in the last decade or so), go and get the best that you can.
BJ Upton was certainly among the elite CFs in the game in 2007 and 2008, compiling top-five (at position) WAR seasons in both years. He kind of fell off in 2009, and hasn’t been too great in 2010. I don’t think that he is right guy.
On the other hand, if Gutierrez can be had from the Mariners, this line-up would be complete, and you could fly that NL pennant at Turner Field tomorrow. But I doubt that Seattle would even consider trading him.
I hate the Phillies so much...
trade him for Crawford! or Werth!
Baseball is like church. Many attend; few understand. - Leo Durocher
Not happening on Werth. Tampa Bay would probably prefer the picks from Crawford than Minor. Also, the Rays will probably not trade away a starting outfielder.
I hate the Phillies so much...
Tampa Bay would probably prefer the picks from Crawford than Minor.
Why? They get a ML-ready pitcher who’s as good or better than the picks. And, they don’t have to shell out a dime of bonus money. Minor is light-years better then draft picks.
Don't kiss an ass if it's in the process of shitting on you.
"…aren’t worthy enough to hold his (Pujols) ass cheeks apart while Playboy models wipe him with thousand dollar bills after he craps out the cure to whatever previously-incurable disease." by royhobbs 1/7/09
“They get a ML-ready pitcher”
Mike Minor is the closest ML-ready pitcher we have in our system who has not played in the Majors already, but there is absolutely no way that he perform at a competent level in the Rays rotation in the AL East. I am doubtful that his stuff would currently work effectively out of a ML Bullpen, let alone for a team that is vying with the Yankees and Red Sox for the first place. He’s good, but let’s not kid ourselves; he’s not that good.
“They don’t have to shell out a dime of bonus money.”
1st Round Picks in the MLB draft give much more to their teams than they get compensated for by bonus money. From The Book- Playing the Percentages in Baseball (written in August, 2009)-
• Picks 1 though 5 on average gave their teams $32M of production.
• Picks 6 through 10, $22.4M
• 11-15, $17.6M
• 16-20, $18.9M
• 21-30 $6.6M
The Rays are a shrewd scouting team and have often fared better than these numbers in the recent past. I’m sure would love to have their two picks in the upcoming draft, which brings me to my third point.
“Minor is light-years better than draft picks.”
The 2011 draft is, by all accounts, stacked. Especially more so than the 2010 draft, and it contains a wealth of college pitching. Minor, last year, was projected to be a mid to late first rounder in a draft with worse college pitching than the 2011 draft. The Rays can conceivably get much more value out of the two draft picks than out of Minor.
Even if you are absolutely correct on the above three points and none of my arguments stand, there is still an additional caveat to consider. Currently, Carl Crawford sits at 4.3 WAR, making him the THIRD best position player in all of baseball, and easily the best on the Rays (even better than Longoria). A team in the middle of a playoff chase with reasonable expectations for a W.S. trophy is not going to trade their best player, and especially not for a guy with the track record of Minor.
I hate the Phillies so much...
maybe the Rays want an all Vandy rotation
"Infield hits are sexy, because they require technique."
-Ichiro
by VivaLosBravos on Jul 8, 2010 10:14 PM EDT up reply actions
Haha
In that case, they are going to need to contact the Reds for Andrew Hayes and the Tigers for Brett Jacobson.
I hate the Phillies so much...
by frozendesert on Jul 8, 2010 10:25 PM EDT up reply actions
and AAA Columbus for Jeremy Sowers
"Infield hits are sexy, because they require technique."
-Ichiro
by VivaLosBravos on Jul 9, 2010 11:16 AM EDT up reply actions
there is absolutely no way that he perform at a competent level in the Rays rotation in the AL East. I am doubtful that his stuff would currently work effectively out of a ML Bullpen, let alone for a team that is vying with the Yankees and Red Sox for the first place. He’s good, but let’s not kid ourselves; he’s not that good.
He’s a top-50 prospect who guys like Sickels and Law rate very highly. His velocity is 92-94 as a starter and his change is supposedly very good. He strikes guys out. His stuff will play out of the pen. Is he as good as Lee? Of course not, and no one is arguing that. And let’s not overrate the Yankees and Red Sox – they aren’t the second-coming of the 1927 Yankees.
1st Round Picks in the MLB draft give much more to their teams than they get compensated for by bonus money.
I’m aware of this fact. However, if you can get a top-50 prospect (plus others) for free, wouldn’t you rather do that? Isn’t a top-50 prospect what you’d hope to receive from a late first (assuming the team that signs CC is not in the top 15 or have signed a higher-rated FA) and supplemental pick? And let’s not forget that the numbers you are using are averages, not guarantees.
The 2011 draft is, by all accounts, stacked. Especially more so than the 2010 draft, and it contains a wealth of college pitching. Minor, last year, was projected to be a mid to late first rounder in a draft with worse college pitching than the 2011 draft. The Rays can conceivably get much more value out of the two draft picks than out of Minor.
Minor’s draft projection is irrelevent at this point. The scouting reports and performance have been excellent, and they are what really count. As for the 2011 draft, you assume far too much, IMO. Just because the Rays have done a good job of drafting in the past, that doesn’t guarantee that they will score two top-notch prospects with the picks they could get if/when CC walks.
A team in the middle of a playoff chase with reasonable expectations for a W.S. trophy is not going to trade their best player, and especially not for a guy with the track record of Minor.
I agree. I never commented on whether the Rays would actually trade him, or whether Minor for CC straight-up would be a fair deal. I was only comparing Minor to the potential draft picks. I don’t even like the idea of trading Minor, because his presence allows the Braves to trade JJ after the season for a boatload of prospects.
Don't kiss an ass if it's in the process of shitting on you.
"…aren’t worthy enough to hold his (Pujols) ass cheeks apart while Playboy models wipe him with thousand dollar bills after he craps out the cure to whatever previously-incurable disease." by royhobbs 1/7/09
Hey
Agree to disagree, except on that last point? We probably aren’t getting him.
I hate the Phillies so much...
Tim Beckham is one of the Rays selections that hasn't gone so well.
And he was a #1 overall pick.
by Alvaro Andres Pizza Varela on Jul 11, 2010 7:48 PM EDT up reply actions
No chance.
Werth will not be moved to the Braves because well, teams don’t try to improve the teams they are competing against. As for the Rays, they don’t need pitching—-hell they have a kid in AAA who is closer to the majors right now than Minor (Hellickson).
Very well written post. I think maybe the most important part to extract from this is that we shouldn’t trade one of our top prospects to make a marginal upgrade, or to take a chance on someone that will probably come back to earth. We shouldn’t trade Minor for Hart because Hart will not be a significant upgrade. IMO, i think the chances are better that Minor becomes a #3 starter than Hart replicates what he has done the first half of this year. In addition, I think there is a pretty good chance the McLouth and Hart have similar numbers in the second half.
Thank you. In both the free agent market and trade market, you almost always (with the rare exception being a non-negligible hometown discount) have to overpay in terms of either price or talent to get your man. This is because free agents usually tend to take the highest-paying contract (yearly or the life of the contract), and GMs usually take the best talent available for the player. It’s referred to as the Winner’s Curse. Therefore, if you have to overpay, overpay for elite talent than for mediocrity. I’m with you on Hart crashing back to Earth soon, as is Keith Law.
I hate the Phillies so much...
I absolutely hate to be pessimistic, particularly when it comes to the Braves, but I’m thinking the chances are much better that McLouth continues to give us next to nothing in the second half. I don’t know what the problem is, but he just doesn’t seem to be the same player he was a few years ago.
I see CF as the biggest problem and the biggest risk the Braves have.
I would support a BIG move to definitively solve the CF problem.
My assumption is it might be possible that the Mariners or Jays could be persuaded to let loose of Franklin Gutierrez. or B.J. Upton, although either would be costly; but there is almost no way that the Dodgers could deal Matt Kemp, which seemingly would be just too stupid a decision to be legitimate possible
This is, of course, based on uninformed conjecture and speculation.
They're apparently frustrated with his attitude.
Players have been traded for worse reasons than that.
Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.
Panthers '010: Save the Richardson family coffers! We'll take the winning if we stumble into it.
by MichaelProcton on Jul 9, 2010 2:50 PM EDT up reply actions
Kemp is having the worst year of his career, both with the bat and glove, and I don’t think the Dodgers will sell low on him if at all.
I think the best move long term is hoping Schafer can be an effective player. Let’s see how that wrist heals.
by Alvaro Andres Pizza Varela on Jul 11, 2010 7:46 PM EDT up reply actions
which rotation sounds better in the playoffs...
Lee, Hudson, Hanson, Jurrjens or Hudson, Hanson, Jurjens, Lowe?
I'm happy with the second and our system strong.
Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.
Panthers '010: Save the Richardson family coffers! We'll take the winning if we stumble into it.
by MichaelProcton on Jul 8, 2010 9:43 PM EDT up reply actions
I'm happy with the second and our system strong.
Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.
Panthers '010: Save the Richardson family coffers! We'll take the winning if we stumble into it.
by MichaelProcton on Jul 8, 2010 9:44 PM EDT up reply actions
Cliff Lee could have been gotten. Smoak is a good prospect, but a guy like Minor along Spruill and a C prospect would have been more than what the Rangers gave.
Now with Lee off the market the Braves should focus in bringing Heyward into the lineup when he is healthy. Not trying to rush him.
by Alvaro Andres Pizza Varela on Jul 11, 2010 7:43 PM EDT up reply actions
Gracias!
I hate the Phillies so much...
by frozendesert on Jul 8, 2010 10:26 PM EDT up reply actions
That was very well written.
I agree with you, but I don’t think we will go after and get Lee.
Thank you
The Lee comment was more written in anticipation of our Front Office actually going out there and making a move, as they seem to have done in recent years whenever we are in this position.
I hate the Phillies so much...
by frozendesert on Jul 8, 2010 10:26 PM EDT up reply actions
This quote from FW on Tuesday leads me to believe he is not interested in picking up another pitcher.
“I don’t see us shopping in the pitching aisle,”
Washington Tribune, June 29 2010 – "The stonecutters carving Stephen Strasburg’s name onto the Washington Monument have been directed to await further instructions."
Sometimes no...
But it’s also easy to tell that we won’t be overspending for a pitcher we don’t really need.
Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.
Panthers '010: Save the Richardson family coffers! We'll take the winning if we stumble into it.
by MichaelProcton on Jul 9, 2010 2:52 PM EDT up reply actions
But I doubt Wren ever willingly "overspends"...
or at least doesn’t think he is when making a deal. I’d assume whenever Wren makes a deal, we might consider it “overspending”, but he’d probably assume it was a reasonable price or else he wouldn’t pay it.
Yes, but you're obviously going to be more willing to pay a premium for a position where you have a true need.
Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.
Panthers '010: Save the Richardson family coffers! We'll take the winning if we stumble into it.
by MichaelProcton on Jul 9, 2010 5:22 PM EDT up reply actions
Excellent work
rec’d
if we get a guy like Corey Hary for anything more than Jo Jo Reyes and a roll of toilet paper, I’ll hit something.
"Sharks have a week dedicated to Jason Heyward."
METS: My Entire Team Sucks.
I'm
with you on that. On the other hand, if we could convince MLB to allow us to paint the baseball so that it looked like a cheeseburger, I would totally be up for trading for Prince Fielder and throwing him in Center Field.
I hate the Phillies so much...
by frozendesert on Jul 8, 2010 11:42 PM EDT up reply actions
Fielder in CF? HAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
"Sharks have a week dedicated to Jason Heyward."
METS: My Entire Team Sucks.
by Scott Coleman on Jul 9, 2010 12:19 AM EDT up reply actions
Both of these comments made me lol
Haha :)
Washington Tribune, June 29 2010 – "The stonecutters carving Stephen Strasburg’s name onto the Washington Monument have been directed to await further instructions."
The Yanks are about to land cliff lee...
by SouthernPanther on Jul 9, 2010 12:27 PM EDT reply actions
good article.
i agree that we shouldnt trade one of our top prospects for anyone but an elite level OF. In a fantasy world we get one of Ichiro or Franklin Gutierrez.
good article.
i agree that we shouldnt trade one of our top prospects for anyone but an elite level OF. In a fantasy world we get one of Ichiro or Franklin Gutierrez.
good article.
i agree that we shouldnt trade one of our top prospects for anyone but an elite level OF. In a fantasy world we get one of Ichiro or Franklin Gutierrez.
This guy wants to suck all the cubs dick can he not have an unbias some what partition reguards
by RWH2 on Apr 5, 2010 10:20 AM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Jul 11, 2010 3:26 AM EDT reply actions
Are you and drumzalicious the same person?
by Alvaro Andres Pizza Varela on Jul 11, 2010 7:38 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah, I saw that…each time.
This guy wants to suck all the cubs dick can he not have an unbias some what partition reguards
by RWH2 on Apr 5, 2010 10:20 AM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Jul 12, 2010 4:29 AM EDT up reply actions
Frozendesert.
I was the one who compared the Hinske/Diaz platoon with Corey Hart. Nice to see I’m referred here.
The question is. Should the Braves open the wallet and give Crawford a king’s ramson to play CF in Atlanta? I think he is the perfect complement for this team. He flies in the basepaths, hits the gaps, plays excellent defense. I don’t know if the Braves will be able to afford him, but it’s one of those players that is worth trying to sign.
If the Yankees end up signing Crawford, then the Braves could work a trade for Brett Gardner. He has demonstrated he can hit and plays good defense in CF.
by Alvaro Andres Pizza Varela on Jul 11, 2010 7:38 PM EDT reply actions
Thanks for the info,
and I just edited to give you credit. I would hope that the Braves could get Crawford, but the problem comes down to this; currently, Carl Crawford sits at 4.6 WAR, making him the third best position player in all of baseball. His previous high was 5.5 WAR in a season. This goes back to what I was saying in the article at the end- it’s not prudent to sign players after career years, because they look for (and often times get) a contract that they are not, nor will ever be, worth.
More specifically, I honestly don’t think that he’s going to be able to keep up that production for the rest of his contract. The reason behind this way of thinking is that his speed and defense make up a bigger part of his WAR that a player with straight offensive skills, such as Justin Morneau or Miguel Cabrera. Studies have shown that defense and speed (in most players) start to tail when the player is in their late twenties and early thirties, unlike power and plate discipline skills (which seem to peak in the late twenties and early thirties in the case of power, and peak in the early to mid thirties, in case of discipline). We should expect a decline in those skills. Additionally, speed and defense disappear fastest after leg injuries, whereas skills usually return (even though mechanics change quite a bit). If this guy starts injuring himself, this contract will not look to be a smart idea.
Finally, let’s find a way to retain Prado before we give out money to Crawford.
On the Yankees, given the fact that Granderson is not hitting at all, they might choose to keep Gardner in Left. If that happens, I wouldn’t mind us trading for Curtis, though. If I had my way, the Braves would go after Grady Sizemore, though.
I hate the Phillies so much...
by frozendesert on Jul 11, 2010 9:32 PM EDT up reply actions
So, let’s hope Schafer gets back on track or Lipka becomes a great CF. I’ve heard Lipka doesn’t have the hands to play in the infield, so with his 80 speed he could be great in the OF.
by Alvaro Andres Pizza Varela on Jul 12, 2010 12:57 PM EDT up reply actions
Really?
I’ve heard he can certainly stick at second if he’s willing to work at it.
Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.
Panthers '010: Save the Richardson family coffers! We'll take the winning if we stumble into it.
by MichaelProcton on Jul 12, 2010 4:34 PM EDT up reply actions
"Find a way to retain Prado?"
You know we’ve got his rights for three more years, right (and when’s the last time we had to actually take a solid young player to arb? Actually, there’s not even a player on the team who’s actually even been to arbitration!) For comparison’s sake, here’s my new FanPost about first-year arbitration MIs.
Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.
Panthers '010: Save the Richardson family coffers! We'll take the winning if we stumble into it.
by MichaelProcton on Jul 12, 2010 7:44 PM EDT up reply actions
Duh.
http://www.talkingchop.com/2010/7/12/1566258/what-might-martin-prado-get-next
Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.
Panthers '010: Save the Richardson family coffers! We'll take the winning if we stumble into it.
by MichaelProcton on Jul 12, 2010 7:44 PM EDT up reply actions
Uh.
Yeah, I think that I (and probably 98% of people on this board) now how arbitration works. The comment above was obviously aimed at our potential to sign him to a long-term deal, which is a legitimate concern when a mid-market team brings in players through free agency. Even so, Escobar, JJ, and Prado are all going to hit their arbitration years together. With a salary like Crawford’s handicapping us, there is a slightly decreased chance that we might be able to sign all of these guys long-term.
I hate the Phillies so much...
by frozendesert on Jul 12, 2010 11:18 PM EDT up reply actions
With Chipper, Lowe, Kawakami, Wagner, Saito, Glavine (remember, we are still paying him, IIRC) and others coming off the books, I don’t think we are going to have any serious monetary handicap.
This guy wants to suck all the cubs dick can he not have an unbias some what partition reguards
by RWH2 on Apr 5, 2010 10:20 AM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Jul 13, 2010 2:45 AM EDT up reply actions
No Glavine money according to Cot's.
Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.
Panthers '010: Save the Richardson family coffers! We'll take the winning if we stumble into it.
by MichaelProcton on Jul 14, 2010 2:41 AM EDT up reply actions
Hmmm…I thought we agreed to defer the rest of his contract over something like 3 years?
This guy wants to suck all the cubs dick can he not have an unbias some what partition reguards
by RWH2 on Apr 5, 2010 10:20 AM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Jul 14, 2010 2:53 AM EDT up reply actions
Did he ever hit any of that when he wasn't activated, though?
Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.
Panthers '010: Save the Richardson family coffers! We'll take the winning if we stumble into it.
by MichaelProcton on Jul 14, 2010 4:58 PM EDT up reply actions
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