Braves Activate Takashi Saito, Send Craig Kimbrel To Gwinnett
And somehow Jesse Chavez lives to give up runs another day. I don't get why they called up Kimbrel the second time. And what the heck does Michael Dunn have to do to get a shot? Imagine the left side of the pen we would have if Dunn joined Venters, EOF, and Wags.
almost 2 years ago
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Ah...no thanks on Dunn
I think that’d be overkill on the lefties.
"Sharks have a week dedicated to Jason Heyward."
METS: My Entire Team Sucks.
To me, that logic only holds up if you’re using Chavez or Martinez as right handed specialists, which you’re not. So, it really doesn’t matter what hand he throws from. If he’s only gonna be used rarely, and he’s more effective than Chavez, bring him up.
"Matt Diaz is a baseball player."-Joe Simpson
I guess that’s true. And since Venters isn’t really a LOGGY, having two LOOGYs in the pen would be nice for the Phillies.
"Sharks have a week dedicated to Jason Heyward."
METS: My Entire Team Sucks.
by Scott Coleman on Jun 22, 2010 4:03 PM EDT up reply actions
But like with Kimbrel...
is it better to have Dunn working regularly for Gwinnett instead of a handful of times per month in Atlanta? And also Chavez and Martinez both seem to be used for extended appearances, would Dunn be up to such a “long relief” type role?
FFFFFFFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU
Well Kimbrel was barely getting used, so it makes sense. It would have been nice to see Kimbrell stay and hopefully continue to mentor under Billy Wagner. The Braves have one of the best closers of all time, and they should use him to save games and mentor a bit.
It would have been even nicer to see Kimbrel...
used from time to time in important situations and more than just a random outing.
I personally enjoy the fact that he is a two outcome pitcher.
K or BB. Makes for sweet betting games.
by DogDaysofSummer on Jun 22, 2010 5:45 PM EDT up reply actions
LOL
Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.
Panthers '010: Save the Richardson family coffers! We'll take the winning if we stumble into it.
by MichaelProcton on Jun 22, 2010 11:15 PM EDT up reply actions
lmao....
all you can do is laugh at how ridiculous it is.
imo, Kimbrel locked up his spot, but like G said, they must be trying to make it interesting…..wanting to keep the other team in the game…
"It looks like The Hound of the Baskervilles out there." - Steve Stone
"...I'm reminded of Wuthering Heights." - Harry Caray
~
I see a troll under that bridge!
by Chief Noc-A-Homa on Jun 22, 2010 3:25 PM EDT reply actions
I'd rather he lock up the '12 closer job by actually pitching more than once every 10 days at Gwinnett.
Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.
Panthers '010: Save the Richardson family coffers! We'll take the winning if we stumble into it.
by MichaelProcton on Jun 22, 2010 11:16 PM EDT up reply actions
If they're not going to use Kimbrel I'd rather see him in Gwinnett
getting regular innings.
R.I.P Jazz #6
Exactly. With Saito back, Kimbrel falls pretty far down the pecking order, no use keeping him here to pitch once per week.
by McLouth Maniac on Jun 22, 2010 3:29 PM EDT up reply actions
Exactly. No reason to keep him in Atlanta if he’s only pitching once a week.
"Sharks have a week dedicated to Jason Heyward."
METS: My Entire Team Sucks.
by Scott Coleman on Jun 22, 2010 3:30 PM EDT up reply actions
This
Let him get his work in, because he’s sure not getting enough with the big club.
Eddie V
by DolphinNation on Jun 22, 2010 3:46 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah, I think that Bobby keeps at least one or two guys...
On the roster for mop up duty…In games that are 10-1 early, sometimes you don’t want to use an important arm…Heck, I thought Martinez fell into this category, but he did well on Sunday…
He came in with runners all over the place and 0 outs. Not his fault they scored a few runs off him.
"Sharks have a week dedicated to Jason Heyward."
METS: My Entire Team Sucks.
by Scott Coleman on Jun 22, 2010 3:33 PM EDT up reply actions
I've got a brilliant idea
So Kimbrel is good, maybe even good enough to use in games we have a chance to win. So…bold idea here, how about we use him, then he gets work, and then maybe we finish the season without destroying EOF, Moylan and Venter’s arms. I mean, the way we let good arms like Kimbrel and maybe Dunn sit in Gwinnett, all while we keep guys like Chavez who we have no intention of using, it’s as if we want our MR to all have 80 GP this year.
I mean, we are in almost every game now, we really only need one mop up man. We can get 6 different relievers meaningful work, and maybe even keep them from all flaming out in August.
How is it, exactly, that we have no intention of using Chavez?
He’s on pace to get into 41 games and throw 53+ innings. That’s far more than Acosta was used last year, and nearly as much as O’F.
Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.
Panthers '010: Save the Richardson family coffers! We'll take the winning if we stumble into it.
by MichaelProcton on Jun 22, 2010 11:19 PM EDT up reply actions
The reality is that unless he’s an elite guy, the best plan is probably to abuse relievers. Most relievers have a 1 or 2 year shelf life (maybe 3 max) and it’s best to get the most use you possibly can out of them in that short time frame. It’s never worth it to pay a reliever any real money, because as soon as you do he’s likely to break down or to just become ineffective. It’s a horrible thing to say, but from a business perspective you’re better off keeping the young guys down so they can replace the Major Leaguers that you’ll use up.
I wrote a novel, it's about baseball, you should buy it: https://www.createspace.com/3407939
www.dropoutproductions.com
Wags
Saito
PeMo
EOF
Venters
Kimbrel
Chavez
Dunn
and maybe a guy like Marek or Proctor if they’re healthy/productive.
I like.
"Sharks have a week dedicated to Jason Heyward."
METS: My Entire Team Sucks.
by Scott Coleman on Jun 22, 2010 3:46 PM EDT up reply actions
Anybody think that Chavez could get out of the same jam that Kimbrel was in?
I don’t. I see us giving up 3-4 runs in that scenario with Chavez on the mound. Hopefully, our offense keeps up the good work (and Nate stays unconscious…)
"It looks like The Hound of the Baskervilles out there." - Steve Stone
"...I'm reminded of Wuthering Heights." - Harry Caray
~
I see a troll under that bridge!
by Chief Noc-A-Homa on Jun 22, 2010 3:44 PM EDT reply actions
I would rather Kimbrel not try that again.
I fed a fish to a pelican and Frisco bay and he tried to eat my cell phone he ran away
this
"Sometimes I think it is a great mistake to have matter that can think and feel. It complains so. By the same token, though, I suppose that boulders and mountains and moons could be accused of being a little too phlegmatic."
-Kurt Vonnegut, "The Sirens of Titan"
by Bravely going forward on Jun 22, 2010 4:42 PM EDT up reply actions
He probably wouldn’t have been in that jam to begin with. He would have done it his own way-give up hit after hit.
"Matt Diaz is a baseball player."-Joe Simpson
very true
"It looks like The Hound of the Baskervilles out there." - Steve Stone
"...I'm reminded of Wuthering Heights." - Harry Caray
~
I see a troll under that bridge!
by Chief Noc-A-Homa on Jun 22, 2010 4:26 PM EDT up reply actions
One might consider...
That Kimbrel has now issued 2+ walks in four of his eight appearances whereas Chavez has done it once in 18 tries. Chavez doesn’t get himself in that situation.
Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.
Panthers '010: Save the Richardson family coffers! We'll take the winning if we stumble into it.
by MichaelProcton on Jun 22, 2010 11:20 PM EDT up reply actions
People may not want to hear this
But Kimbrel still needs work. I know he has the pretty ERA and everything, but his BB rate is atrocious. He needs to get regular work and we should be aiming on having him ready to pitch meaningful innings once September and October roll around.
Our relievers are going to be fine. While many have a bunch of appearances, their innings are actually reasonable (Venters is the only reliever over 30) and if once rosters expand in September they should be able to rest more.
THIS THIS THIS!
A thousand times over.
Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.
Panthers '010: Save the Richardson family coffers! We'll take the winning if we stumble into it.
by MichaelProcton on Jun 22, 2010 11:21 PM EDT up reply actions
The thing I find funniest about this
People love Kimbrel and hate Chavez. Chavez is a POS while Kimbrel is a golden god.
Chavez has an xFIP of 4.55, while Kimbrel’s is at 4.60!!!
Chavez is almost five years older.
I fed a fish to a pelican and Frisco bay and he tried to eat my cell phone he ran away
And that has nothing to do with this
I’m not predicting who will be better over the next 5 years, just pointing out that Chavez may be getting unlucky while Kimbrel may be getting extremely lucky.
But really, when you have two players and one is obviously more talented than the other, eventually that’s going to play out in the numbers. Sure, Kimbrel might be getting lucky now, but eventually things will work out and show that he’s just plain more talented than Chavez.
I wrote a novel, it's about baseball, you should buy it: https://www.createspace.com/3407939
www.dropoutproductions.com
SSS
But look at Kimbrel’s K rate. At this point, there really isn’t enough data to compare the two, especially since Kimbrel has only pitched 8 2/3. As far as the overused “eye test,” Chavez is a ticking time bomb and Kimbrel is lights out after his opening walk or two. Also, no one expects either to pitch in a high-stress situation, but I get the feeling that Bobby is loathe to send out Chavez with anything less than a 5 run lead
Look at his BB rate
Or both or their K/BB rates for that matter. Chavez is much, much better in those categories. There isn’t really much reason to think either is fundamentally that much better than the other at this point. Given that, it makes more sense to let the younger guy develop in the minors, while occasionally using the older guy get hit in the majors.
Again, SSS...
perhaps Kimbrel’s walk rate would come down big time if he started getting regular work to stay sharp AND had more innings to even out the wild outings.
That's why his control is so great in the minors, huh?
Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.
Panthers '010: Save the Richardson family coffers! We'll take the winning if we stumble into it.
by MichaelProcton on Jun 22, 2010 11:22 PM EDT up reply actions
It's been average.
No better.
Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.
Panthers '010: Save the Richardson family coffers! We'll take the winning if we stumble into it.
by MichaelProcton on Jun 23, 2010 5:27 PM EDT up reply actions
xFIP certainly has its place, but it completely eliminates how hittable a pitcher is. If a batter hits a line drive double every time up against chavez while hitters beat ground balls into the dirt against kimbrel (just examples), their xFIP will be the same. Kimbrel’s walks kill his xFIP, but chavez is a worse pitcher and much more hittable and it just shows every single time he pitches. There’s a reason that chavez has given up 19 earned runs in 18 appearances.
That reason is largely SSS
Chavez isn’t fundamentally nearly as bad as his ERA would indicate and he’s just fine as a cheap 7th BP arm right now. I don’t want to see him on the post-season roster by any means, but as far as taking care of meaningless innings over the next few months, I’m perfectly fine with that.
I just kind of think FIP and xFIP are a little ridiculous. They just completely cut out hits and runs, the two most important things that a pitcher should limit. I understand that it neutralizes fielding, but that really doesn’t make sense when you’re comparing two guys on the same team. Aside from that is the fact that kimbrel’s sample size is wayyyy too small to mean anything qualitatively.
Is it not for Chavez?
They may have to hospitalize Sid Bream!
-We miss you Skip!
by RaymondBatista on Jun 22, 2010 4:29 PM EDT up reply actions
that’s a good point, but what’s the cutoff? I’d say to really know how good a pitcher is, you would need multiple years worth of data, particularly from a reliever. That said, there’s enough fluctuation that a player changes drastically within that time frame. In addition to that, you can’t be making personnel decisions on relievers based on how they’ve done is a very general way over the past 3 years. It may not be fair that he hasn’t been given a ton of chances to show how good he can be, but he also has been consistently terrible with the chances he has been given. Kelly Johnson knows exactly what that’s like. He was a good, yet inconsistent player for years and then he threw up one really bad half season and he was sent packing. Sometimes you have to ride the hot hand.
Both of their sample sizes are too small to mean all that much
Also, I find it pretty important for relievers to minimize their number of walks as well. Maybe that’s just me.
True, but they also have to minimize their number of hits allowed, which chavez hasn’t done. Hits are inherently worse than walks. They can move runners over that are not on first base, they can move the batter up more than 90 feet, and sometimes they go out of the park.
Kimbrel has had a whole 8.1 innings to adjust to the competition at the major league level, where people tend to chase balls out of the zone less. Given the opportunity, those numbers should come down, if only slightly.
Hits allowed are only vaguely controllable
It largely comes down to luck and defense. The main component a pitcher has control over is strikeouts and Chavez is fine on that front.
Honestly, I don’t think Kimbrel’s problems have that much to do with adjusting to the competition. He just doesn’t have good command of his pitches and it will be much easier for him to work on that in AAA with regular work than in the majors with a sporadic inning or two a week. There’s no reason to keep him up in the majors at this point, just as their is no reason to quit running Chavez out there is relatively meaningless situations.
Every time someone talks about the basis for FIP and xFIP, they state that hits are only vaguely controllable, but no one actually proves that point. Through the minor leagues, kimbrel allowed 56 hits in 117.1 innings. That seems very controlled to me. I don’t disagree with your analysis or even your conclusions all that much. What I disagree with is cherry picking xFIP to prove your point, because I don’t think it’s nearly close enough to a stand-alone stat to be used in the way that so many people do.
Kimbrel deserves time on the mound. If bobby’s not willing to give it to him, then I’d rather see him in AAA. That said, chavez doesn’t always only see mop up roles. Against the dodgers, he can in to a 2 run game as the braves were successfully fighting their way back from a big defecit. In comes Chavez, out goes the hope of winning.
I bet that's what the Reds said, huh?
And then he shut them down for three and a third, a performance that gave us far more than hope of winning when Hanson shit the bed. He also pitched a perfect ninth against Philly to give us a chance to come back from a three-run deficit and eventually win that game in extras. Try actually know what you’re talking about when you’re using ridiculous generalizations.
Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.
Panthers '010: Save the Richardson family coffers! We'll take the winning if we stumble into it.
by MichaelProcton on Jun 22, 2010 11:26 PM EDT up reply actions
you just proved my point
he pitches in situations that matter. With his performance this year, he shouldn’t be.
I proved your point?
You said, “In comes Chavez, out goes the hope of winning.” That statement is patently wrong.
Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.
Panthers '010: Save the Richardson family coffers! We'll take the winning if we stumble into it.
by MichaelProcton on Jun 23, 2010 5:27 PM EDT up reply actions
And who's to say...
That Kimbrel doesn’t become more hittable when, you know, he starts actually throwing the ball int he zone.
Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.
Panthers '010: Save the Richardson family coffers! We'll take the winning if we stumble into it.
by MichaelProcton on Jun 22, 2010 11:23 PM EDT up reply actions
It doesn't "neutralize fielding" as I understand it, as much as eliminates fielding...
if the metric made corrections for guys with bad fielders, like say the Dodgers with their horrid OF defense, or exceptional fielders like say the Mariners with Kotchman and Guttierez, etc, I could see the “neutralize” aspect. But it completely removes fielding as I understand the stat, and that is just nuts imo. Pitchers always have fielders behind them and those guys make outs just the same as a strikeout.
right, in trying to avoid the complexities that arise from trying to judge the fielders behind a pitcher at any given moment and adjust their stats accordingly, this stat just eliminates everything with a fielder involved. They start with the assumption that these same plays happen to be beyond the pitcher’s control. I think it’s ridiculous to say that dan kolb and john smoltz and I are each just as likely to give up a hit to a major league hitter.
Food for thought
http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=10113
With crappy overpaid vets of course!
by TheBravestWay To Block A Decent Prospect on Jun 22, 2010 8:38 PM EDT up reply actions
Thank you.
Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.
Panthers '010: Save the Richardson family coffers! We'll take the winning if we stumble into it.
by MichaelProcton on Jun 22, 2010 11:21 PM EDT up reply actions
It's probably a moot point
Chavez’s bullpen role will soon be replaced by KK anyway.
Until then, it’s interleague play (we get to use a DH some), were swinging hot bats and Hudson, Hanson and Lowe (all hitting their mid season stride) will be making six of the next eight starts.
I think we’ll be OK having Chavez pick his nose in the bullpen for a week, waiting for a possible blowout or 15 inning game.
Kimbrel needs more polishing work in the minors.
Dunn
With them not bringing up Dunn it makes you wonder if there is truth to the whole Dunn will rot in AAA rumor. I can’t remember where i seen the post though or i would link.
Bravos1 1 week ago
Don’t expect to see Mike Dunn in an Atlanta Uniform. Apparently he and his agent had a little meeting with Bobby Cox and Frank Wren that didn’t go so well. It ended with Wren telling Dunn and his agent that he will “rot” in Triple A as long he is in an Atlanta Uniform.
Like Reply
johnmiltonrocks 6 days ago in reply to Bravos1
Wow! Nice folks you’ve got there in Atlanta. Will Atlanta actually give a 40 man spot to player so they can “rot” in AAA? That’s not smart business. It is a nice, petty, vindictive touch though. It’s good to be King!
Like Reply
migueljablonski 6 days ago in reply to Bravos1
what?! if this isn’t a joke I’d like a source
Like Reply
Bravos1 6 days ago in reply to migueljablonski
I heard from a good friend of Dunn. Apparently it happened pretty recently. Right after a trade to KC fell through.
Flag
I heard the reason Troy Glaus is hitting so well is because in the offseason he had an experimental surgery to turn him into a cyborg. I heard it from a friend of the surgeon who did the surgery. I guess that makes him the Glausinator instead of the Glausosaur since every rumor on some comment thread of any webpage should be taken at least somewhat seriously.
They may have to hospitalize Sid Bream!
-We miss you Skip!
by RaymondBatista on Jun 22, 2010 4:37 PM EDT up reply actions
Interesting,but...
I heard he had an experimental procedure to cross his DNA with that of a dinosaur. Perhaps it was both? Does that mean a nickname of Glausosaurinator is in order?
Exactly.
Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.
Panthers '010: Save the Richardson family coffers! We'll take the winning if we stumble into it.
by MichaelProcton on Jun 22, 2010 11:27 PM EDT up reply actions
Question: Is it just me or is Martinez not that bad?
I don’t anything about his fancy stats, but he hasn’t really too bad so far for us.
he’s got good mechanics. just needs to work on the little things
"It looks like The Hound of the Baskervilles out there." - Steve Stone
"...I'm reminded of Wuthering Heights." - Harry Caray
~
I see a troll under that bridge!
by Chief Noc-A-Homa on Jun 22, 2010 4:27 PM EDT up reply actions
I agree.
He was good for Florida last year, and I think he could be a decent organizational asset.
Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.
Panthers '010: Save the Richardson family coffers! We'll take the winning if we stumble into it.
by MichaelProcton on Jun 22, 2010 11:27 PM EDT up reply actions
At this point I’m thinking the Braves are trying to save an option year on Dunn.
"I should have followed Rhyno's advice..." Mr. Sanchez 06/18/2010
that makes sense… we could definitly use him next year
by Braves Biceps on Jun 22, 2010 4:35 PM EDT up reply actions
But didn't we already call him up this year?
Granted, he never actually got into a game and was sent right back down. But I’m pretty sure that counts as an option.
"Yeah, and I have an enchanted jock strap." -- Karl Karlson
by Jacob Peterson on Jun 22, 2010 5:53 PM EDT up reply actions
I don’t recall him being in Atlanta, but I forget more important stuff than that all the time, so its entirely possible. He’s on the 40-man roster, but I don’t see where he was on the 25-man this season.
"I should have followed Rhyno's advice..." Mr. Sanchez 06/18/2010
Yes, he was on the roster for a day.
He was the first Jo-Jo replacement.
Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.
Panthers '010: Save the Richardson family coffers! We'll take the winning if we stumble into it.
by MichaelProcton on Jun 22, 2010 11:28 PM EDT up reply actions
I am trying very hard not to get too upset about these bullpen moves for now. I had been letting it get to me, but I’ve decided now that there’s no point in worrying. I think we can all agree that the 7 guys in the pen now are not the exact 7 that will be in our pen in the playoffs (well, it’ll be 8 in the playoffs, with a starter going to the pen, too).
I think our optimal playoff bullpen (assuming 4 starters and 8 relievers) is something like this:
Wagner, Saito, Moylan, EOF, Venters, Medlen, Kawakami, and either Dunn or Kimbrel. As long as we make the playoffs and end up with a bullpen like that, I’ll be very pleased in the end.
"Yeah, and I have an enchanted jock strap." -- Karl Karlson
Dunn why Not ? An why Kimbrel down ?
Sometimes moves are interesting but this one is a true head shrinker lol. Kimbrel was rocky in his last outing but found his way on the mound and retired the side nicely with a couple of K’s following loading the bases; the only reason I can figure for him being sent back to AAA is to get him more regular work instead of sitting out in the bullpen for 10 days similar to what happened to C. Martinez. But their is no doubt Kimbrel is going to be a true beast next season as our closer for 2011 and beyond.
Now as for Saito I love the fact that he is coming back but why not send Chavez down ? Why is it that Cox always falls in love with lost causes and projects such as Chavez this season. I don’t understand it , and I do wanna see Mike Dunn get a shot this year.
Their was a recent post, blog, article or something stating that F. Wren said they are trying to make him into a starter ? I am wondering if anyone else heard anything about this and if their is any truth to these posts, blogs, articles ?
Go Braves keep up the winning ways ~ wish I could see the game tonight no PTV or MLB Network here damn it.
by Holty_Panthers_Fan on Jun 22, 2010 7:21 PM EDT reply actions
it may be as simple as Pitches Thrown Sunday
These roster moves can be very pragmatic in the short term. Lots of work by the pen in KK’s last start: Moylan, Wagner, O’Flaherty all threw 16-17 pitches so there’s got to be some concern about the 5th-7th inning if Lowe is off tonight. Martinez threw 45 pitches Sunday so he’ll likely rest tonight. But he has looked good lately so you keep him for now. Kimbrel threw 27 pitches Sunday and he’s not really a middle innings guy, so he’s the odd man out. Chavez is fresh.
Granted Chavez has a proven ability to be bad when fresh, but garbage innings are garbage innings and Jesse has got a lot to give having not worked in quite some time.
the thing i dont like
Is according to DoB’s twitter Saito’s hamstring is still sore. While having him back in the bullpen will be nice just not at the cost of him being injured again in a few weeks. Saito didn’t even sound convincing talking about it saying he will “try” to make it to the ASB without any problems.
by drumzalicious on Jun 23, 2010 1:13 AM EDT via mobile reply actions
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