Braves Quote For The Day... Randaaallll
by gondeee on May 26, 2010 2:51 PM EDT
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PrintThere has been a lot of good things to say about our top three pitching prospects lately. Once again, here is Kevin Goldstein of Baseball Prospectus on Braves pitching prospect Randall Delgado:
Starting to move into that special category? 68 Ks and 12 BBs in 59.1 innings and 1.47 ERA in May with a fastball up to 94 mph and two secondary pitches that rate as true plus.
It's a further testament to how well he continues to pitch that his teammates with the bats aren't getting any runs for him. He lost last night and only gave up one run on five hits while striking out 12, yet he's not pressing and trying to be too perfect because of the lack of run support -- a trap many pitchers fall into.
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Pitching, Pitching and More Pitching
I am certainly not complaining about our pitching depth, but, man, it seems like all of our top prospects are pitchers…I am excited by only Heyward (if he’s still a prospect), Freeman, and maybe Bethancourt and Salcedo…Can we maybe swap some of these arms for bats????
It’s more important to develop arms because pitchers can get injured at any moment. Trading one of them would be foolish because nobody really knows which one of them will be an ace in the big leagues.
What if you trade the one who ends up being the best of all while the other 4 decline or get injured?
Everyday players can be valuable for their speed and defense too, so they can be acquired easier and cheaper.
by Alvaro Andres Pizza Varela on May 26, 2010 3:49 PM EDT up reply actions
What if you trade the one that flames out?
it’s a gamble, everyone knows that. But the gamble is with all, and fear of giving up another star like Wainwright, etc, will lead to several missed opportunities.
The Braves panicked in the Wainright trade. The front office started saying Wainright would never be an ace, blah blah blah, to make the trade look even. And they never gave him a chance.
Look how that ended. They said the same about Neftali Feliz. And I think the Rangers are making a big mistake putting him in the bullpen, because he is better than just being a closer.
They said Andrus wouldn’t be that good, when his sole glove is as good as Vizquel in his prime. And his OBP is like .400 right now with great discipline.
If the kids are doing fine in the minor leagues, you DON’T trade them. You give them the chance to succeed in the majors.
You don’t gamble 30 years of possible service time for 1 year of Teixeira. You don’t gamble 6 years of service time from Wainright for 1 year of JD Drew.
You don’t gamble 6 years of possible service time from one of theses kids for a veteran bat who’ll leave in 1 or 2 years. That’s what crappy franchises do.
And that’s what I hate about the Braves front office now. They don’t recognize the mistake of the Teixeira trade. They say it hasn’t affected them in the majors. That’s a lie. The lost depth and the cost of replacing that depht were signing Kawakami and Lowe above the market price.
by Alvaro Andres Pizza Varela on May 26, 2010 4:26 PM EDT up reply actions
OK, how about trading Andy Marte for Edgar Renteria?
Melvin Nieves, Donny Elliot and Vince Moore for McGriff? Andrew Brown, Odalis Perez and Brian Jordan for Sheffield? Juan Cruz, Dan Meyer, and Charles Thomas for Hudson? That door swings both ways you know. If you let a bad deal scare you off, you might not make a good deal that’s on the table. We’ve traded as many, if not more prospects who failed to pan out as we have ones that became Andrus, Feliz, or Wainwright. And please don’t talk to me about the ills of the Tex deal, it only proves your level of newness.
None of those prospects were in the class of Wainright, Andrus and Feliz.
Marte was considered a big prospect, but he was given a chance several times and he never earned a starting spot. Thomas was an OK outfielder, Cruz was a veteran, Odalis Perez was mediocre with Atlanta, Dan Meyer was a good prospect but never with this ceiling.
Wainright was always considered a top of the rotation prospect, the same happens with Feliz, and nobody expected Andrus to bat this well so early, but defensively, the sky was and is the limit and his bat was considered enough for a SS.
Don’t compare apples to oranges.
by Alvaro Andres Pizza Varela on May 26, 2010 10:09 PM EDT up reply actions
None of those prospects were in the class of Wainright, Andrus and Feliz.
This statement is just wrong. Andy Marte and Odalis Perez were far more highly thought of as prospects than Wainwright, Andrus, and Feliz were when they were traded. Those guys were top flight prospects and Perez became a very good ML pitcher. You’re looking at things with 20/20 vision. There’s nothing to say that 3 years from now Andrus and Feliz won’t look like Marte.
I wrote a novel, it's about baseball, you should buy it: https://www.createspace.com/3407939
www.dropoutproductions.com
About Marte read my answer below.
Odalis got his chance with the Braves and with the Dodgers and he never seized it. And that’s what I’m saying. Give these prospects a chance before giving up on them.
Everybody knew Feliz would be at worst a shutdown closer, the same with Wainright. And everybody knew Andrus glove was the best SS glove in the whole major leagues.
by Alvaro Andres Pizza Varela on May 27, 2010 12:38 AM EDT up reply actions
Nobody had even heard of Feliz at the time of the trade. Go back and look at all the things people had to say about it then. The guy was a mystery. Best SS glove in the whole Major Leagues? Really? No, Andrus was a good prospect who was very young and highly thought of, but he was also a guy who needed to develop.
You need to go back and check Odalis Perez’s stats. You’re really showing your ignorance more and more with each post.
I wrote a novel, it's about baseball, you should buy it: https://www.createspace.com/3407939
www.dropoutproductions.com
I don't care about Odalis minor league numbers.
Because he had his chance in the bigs and failed once and again.
You seem not to understand my point. If for example Delgado keeps doing fine, then let him pitch in the majors. If he doesn’t do well, then trade him. But it’s an idiot move to trade a guy if he is a top prospect and he hasn’t pitched significant innings in the bigs.
It would have been foolish to trade Odalis when he was pitching in AA or AAA.
by Alvaro Andres Pizza Varela on May 27, 2010 11:46 AM EDT up reply actions
I had heard of Feliz and his 100 MHP with movement fastball.
And I live in South America. So I think scouts in the bigs knew about him.
It’s not like the case of Jose Capellan who had speed but his fastball didn’t move an inch.
Andrus was considered an spectacular major league ready glove in class A. The question was if he could bat in the majors. He was rookie of the year and at 20 he has a .400 OBP with plus plus defense. He is a possible future hall of famer.
by Alvaro Andres Pizza Varela on May 27, 2010 11:50 AM EDT up reply actions
Congrats, you were one of the few people who had actually heard of Neftali Hernandez outside of front offices. When did you hear of him? When he was called Neftali Hernandez?
Actually, Andrew Bailey was rookie of the year. And if that meaningless award is any indication then Chris Coghlan is a possible future Hall of Famer.
I wrote a novel, it's about baseball, you should buy it: https://www.createspace.com/3407939
www.dropoutproductions.com
Coghlan had a lucky rookie of the year with a high BABIP.
Go read Keith Law. No scout thinks he’ll be better than average.
by Alvaro Andres Pizza Varela on May 27, 2010 12:35 PM EDT up reply actions
That’s my point. Playing well one year really doesn’t mean much. Kind of like TB competing for 3 years doesn’t make them the best example of an organization.
I wrote a novel, it's about baseball, you should buy it: https://www.createspace.com/3407939
www.dropoutproductions.com
Do you want it to be 5 years? 10? 3 decades?
The Royals haven’t gone to the postseason since 1985, the Pirates since 1992. I bet their fanbase would love to root for Tampa. With that rotation and those position players they’ll contend for at least 3 or 4 years more. Isn’t that enough for you?
by Alvaro Andres Pizza Varela on May 27, 2010 12:40 PM EDT up reply actions
Yes. I want to see some sustained success before I crown TB the kings of management. 2 and a quarter years don’t cut it for me.
I wrote a novel, it's about baseball, you should buy it: https://www.createspace.com/3407939
www.dropoutproductions.com
For example...
the Oakland A’s were the supposed greatest run organization ever with Moneyball and Billy Beane. That seemed to change pretty swiftly once they lost their edge in starting pitching as Hudson, Mulder, Zito, Haren, etc went elsewhere.
by Mr. Sanchez on May 27, 2010 12:59 PM EDT up reply actions
They contended for 7 years
And that stadium is crippling them. The same is happening with Tampa. It’s about economics.
The Braves don’t have that problem, so they can keep their homegrown stars.
by Alvaro Andres Pizza Varela on May 27, 2010 1:02 PM EDT up reply actions
It would be nice to see if they can sustain it over the next decade...
their pitching makes it pretty likely. But losing Pena and Crawford this off season will leave holes. That said, they seem set up similar to the braves of the mid 90s—great young 3B and a dominant rotation. Ironic it comes after they jettison the former Braves personnel men.
by Mr. Sanchez on May 27, 2010 12:57 PM EDT up reply actions
Coghlan was lucky, but Andrus didn't win it either...
“He was rookie of the year "
is just inaccurate. Andrew Bailey won it, not Elvis.
And he was, at the time, blocked by Escobar, so there were some valid reasons for being willing to include him. Not saying we couldn’t make room for both, but we were willing to invest in a young SS making him somewhat expendable at the time. And like you say, no one saw this sort of production at the plate coming.
by Mr. Sanchez on May 27, 2010 12:40 PM EDT up reply actions
I was wrong, he wasn't ROY
But he is a great prospect with a bright future. That’s the point.
by Alvaro Andres Pizza Varela on May 27, 2010 12:56 PM EDT up reply actions
got it...
and since you are clearly so new, I’m the one with an outstanding wager with another poster here about Feliz or Andrus making an All Star game within the next 3 years. You aren’t the only one that can easily admit what caliber of player they are TODAY.
This is the second time you use the word wager or gambling
It’s not about gambling.
Once again, it’s about assesing talent vs cost.
Andrus, Feliz and Wainright are great talents for a low cost.
Andrus in his whole ML career has been worth to the Rangers 19.2 million. And he has been paid less than a million.
Feliz has been worth 7.9 million. And that’s as a reliever. The Rangers are not smart enough to put him as a starter where he’d be way more valuable. He also has been paid less than a million.
Wainright has been worth 62.5 millions. Fangraphs doesn’t list how much he has been paid.
That’s a total of 89.6 millions and 18 years of service time for 2 rentals.
Teixeira was worth 28.4 millions and JD Drew 26.3 millions. That’s a combined 54.7 millions.
So, right now those three former prospects have been worth 34 million more than the players they were traded for.
by Alvaro Andres Pizza Varela on May 27, 2010 1:19 PM EDT up reply actions
The Fangraphs dollar amount is not a perfect 1:1 comparison to real life dollar amount. There have been many arguments on this site over it.
"UNLIKE CYBORG REYES JOJO MY CPU DOES NOT REQUIRE 'EARNED RUNS' FOR NOURISHMENT"
by Smoltz's Beard on May 27, 2010 1:24 PM EDT up reply actions
Let's think it's equal value
And not a 30 million dollar difference.
The Braves still win if they keep their prospects. Andrus is in his second year as is Feliz. How more will they produce to the Rangers?
Make the count for 4 more years of service time EACH.
by Alvaro Andres Pizza Varela on May 27, 2010 1:27 PM EDT up reply actions
You don't understand English well do you?...
the bit about the “wager or gambling” clearly went over your head. To clairfy, I bet another member of the site we’d see Andrus or Feliz in an All Star game within the next 3 seasons, so clearly I think both are capable of being pretty damn good players with a lot of talent.
And considering the secondary stuff that he’s shown so far (meaning other than a great fastball), your comments about Feliz as a starter vs. a reliever are just your opinion, and the people who see him every single day and are paid to make that decision obviously disagree. Just because starters as a whole are more valuable than relievers doesn’t mean Feliz is actually a good enough pitcher to be an effective starter.
They are already productive now. It’s about production. Even if they don’t go to the ASG.
Feliz should be given a chance as a starter before wasting his talents as a reliever. if he doesn’t work as a starter then move him to the bullpen again.
by Alvaro Andres Pizza Varela on May 27, 2010 1:44 PM EDT up reply actions
Everybody knew Feliz would be at worst a shutdown closer
Completely untrue. Young fireballers like him flame out all the time, no pun intended. And as CB pointed out, Feliz was a throw in…no one even knew the guy.
"UNLIKE CYBORG REYES JOJO MY CPU DOES NOT REQUIRE 'EARNED RUNS' FOR NOURISHMENT"
by Smoltz's Beard on May 27, 2010 10:25 AM EDT up reply actions
The Rangers seemed to.
"Make the most of the Indian Hemp seed and sow it everywhere." - George Washington, 1794
Everything made from oil and wood can be made from HEMP. It's the earth's number one bio-mass resource.
People knew him, but at the time of the deal...
he was 19, with a 100 mph heat, and little else to speak of. He had solid #s with GCL and Danville totalling just over 50 innings. The potential was clearly there, but it was also a kid with little more than rookie ball work. Jose Cappelan was much further along, and we see how he turned out. As of right now, he’d be comparable to maybe Carlos Perez or Andy Otero. Even Robinson Lopez is further along and more accomplished as a prospect than Feliz was at the time of the deal.
by Mr. Sanchez on May 27, 2010 11:15 AM EDT up reply actions
You don't trade a guy with a 100 mhp fastball with movement.
You just don’t do that. You find out what you got. And that’s my point. You don’t bankrupt your whole farm system for a guy you know you are not going to keep in the future (Teixeira). Or if you keep him he is going to cost an eye from the face.
Last year Teheran was in Danville and then Rome. Would you have traded him for 1 year rental of Cliff Lee?
by Alvaro Andres Pizza Varela on May 27, 2010 11:54 AM EDT up reply actions
a guy you know you are not going to keep
I’m sure all the teams would love to have your apparent ability to see into the future.
I wrote a novel, it's about baseball, you should buy it: https://www.createspace.com/3407939
www.dropoutproductions.com
So, you really believed Teixeira was going to stay in Atlanta, just because he went to Georgia Tech?
by Alvaro Andres Pizza Varela on May 27, 2010 12:37 PM EDT up reply actions
Whether we did or not has no bearing on what the front office thought...
i’ve also said it was a bad idea, considering we weren’t about to offer any more than Texas just had. But the idea that he’d be resigned was certainly floated about.
by Mr. Sanchez on May 27, 2010 12:41 PM EDT up reply actions
He is a Scott Boras client. He was going for top dollars. Atlanta couldn’t pay what he wanted, he was leaving.
by Alvaro Andres Pizza Varela on May 27, 2010 12:46 PM EDT up reply actions
yeah, I've said that before...
and didn’t need the reminder. Perhaps you need to learn to read English better…
i’ve also said it was a bad idea, considering we weren’t about to offer any more than Texas just had
That’s not what you’re arguing. You’re saying they traded for him knowing they couldn’t keep him, which is completely untrue. They gave him a very fair offer and he chose to turn it down. They absolutely had a chance to keep him. You seem to only be able to look at things after the fact and judge them. Try having some perspective.
I wrote a novel, it's about baseball, you should buy it: https://www.createspace.com/3407939
www.dropoutproductions.com
You are delusional.
Texas had offered 140 million and he had rejected it too. That offer Atlanta made was to save face.
He was going to test the market and go for the max offer he could get.
by Alvaro Andres Pizza Varela on May 27, 2010 12:47 PM EDT up reply actions
The Braves offered 160. That’s a fair offer.
You’re ignorant. About a great many things.
I wrote a novel, it's about baseball, you should buy it: https://www.createspace.com/3407939
www.dropoutproductions.com
And he got 180 million from the Yankees. And if the Red Sox had offered 10 million more he would have signed with Boston.
He is a mercenary and the Braves knew it.
And thankfully he rejected it. Because then half the payroll would be tied to 4 players. Middle market teams don’t compete that way.
by Alvaro Andres Pizza Varela on May 27, 2010 12:53 PM EDT up reply actions
Marte was the best hitting prospect in the minor leagues and one 66 at-bat cup of coffee wasn’t changing anyone’s mind about that. Meyer was a very legit prospect who ran into arm problems.
Marte was traded twice in THE SAME OFFSEASON
Remember, Renteria was a bust in Boston.
Would the Braves have given Jason Heyward for a guy the other team wanted to dump desperately? NO WAY.
And then the Red Sox traded him to Cleveland for Coco Crisp. Ufff, the best prospect in the minors. Evan Longoria before Evan Longoria. Please.
About Meyer: Hudson wanted to stay in Atlanta. JD Drew and Teixeira are Scott Boras clients. They are mercenaries. The Braves knew they were rentals.
by Alvaro Andres Pizza Varela on May 27, 2010 12:34 AM EDT up reply actions
Heyward is on another level so like you said earlier, let’s not compare apples to oranges.
You just can’t look back with 20/20 hindsight and say that everyone knew the #14 prospect in all of baseball was going to be a bust, that a 19 year old in rookie ball with 35 career innings was guaranteed to be an excellent closer.
People have to make decisions in real time and don’t have the advantage of seeing into the future.
You are right, I can’t see the future. But I prefer to be conservative. And I hope the Braves don’t commit the same mistake and trade 3 prospects for Roy Oswalt.
I’m not angry about the Teixeira trade. What pisses me off, is that Frank Wren and Schuerholz won’t recognize the mistake. It’s obvious they knows they made a mistake, otherwise they would have traded Yunel and prospects for Peavy.
by Alvaro Andres Pizza Varela on May 27, 2010 1:12 AM EDT up reply actions
Andy Marte was a top 5 prospect in baseball at one point. Just because he didn’t turn out well doesn’t mean he wasn’t considered an insanely good prospect.
I wrote a novel, it's about baseball, you should buy it: https://www.createspace.com/3407939
www.dropoutproductions.com
He was traded twice IN THE SAME OFFSEASON straight up for average players.
Would that have happened with David Price, Matt Weiters, Evan Longoria, Jay Bruce, Jason Heyward, Stephen Strasburg, etc?
He was considered a top prospect, but at the time of the trade his stock was falling quickly.
I rest my case your owner.
by Alvaro Andres Pizza Varela on May 27, 2010 11:42 AM EDT up reply actions
It's "your honor"...
and the guy was a top 15 prospect at the time of the deals whether you admit it or not.
http://www.baseball-reference.com/minors/player.cgi?id=marte-001and
Prospect Ratings by Baseball America:
Pre-2003: Rated #40 Prospect
Pre-2004: Rated #11 Prospect
Pre-2005: Rated #9 Prospect
Pre-2006: Rated #14 Prospect
We weren’t getting Hudson, McGriff, etc for scraps considering they were elite players at the time of their deals. It’s real easy to call these guys crap after they failed to pan out, and the fact remains a lot more of the prospects we’ve dealt for big league players has missed than panned out, and if you are constantly scared of the ones who got away, you will forget all those who were ultimately no loss at all and brought back an important contributor.
by Mr. Sanchez on May 27, 2010 11:47 AM EDT up reply actions
And once again he was traded twice in the same offseason.
And he never reached the majors. So teams knew he was a bust. He was a number one guy and then he was a top 15. He was already slipping.
by Alvaro Andres Pizza Varela on May 27, 2010 11:56 AM EDT up reply actions
If teams knew he was a bust...
why’d they keep trading for him smart guy? Wouldn’t they ask for another prospect instead of someone sure to never make it?
by Mr. Sanchez on May 27, 2010 12:05 PM EDT up reply actions
Teams think they can fix a guy and that’s why they are suckers for former top prospects.
by Alvaro Andres Pizza Varela on May 27, 2010 12:34 PM EDT up reply actions
He was in the top 15 of all of baseball according to Baseball America
in the winter of those deals. That’s not a “former” top prospect. That’s a top prospect at the time of the deal. Yes, 20/20 hindsight shows he was overrated and not a MLB caliber player, but at THE TIME OF THE DEALS, he was a highly thought of prospect, dealt for a pretty good young SS at the time who was a big contributor for multiple World Series winners and who gave us a fantastic season before being turned into Jurrjens and Gorkys Hernandez, plus in a large package that brought back Daniel Bard as well as what at the time was a solid 25 yr old CF with leadoff ability in Crisp.
by Mr. Sanchez on May 27, 2010 12:45 PM EDT up reply actions
He was traded twice straight up for Major Leaguers! Guys who had actually proven themselves in the show. He was in demand, if anything that’s more of an example of what a mega-prospect he was.
I wrote a novel, it's about baseball, you should buy it: https://www.createspace.com/3407939
www.dropoutproductions.com
For average major leaguers who wanted out or their teams wanted them out.
Coco Crisp knew Sizemore was a future star and he wanted out of Cleveland.
And the Red Sox were so desperate to get rid of Renteria they paid half the contract so the Braves could grab him the fastest possible.
by Alvaro Andres Pizza Varela on May 27, 2010 12:33 PM EDT up reply actions
Crisp went to the Red Sox...
To replace Johnny Damon, not because he wanted out of Cleveland.
You act as if Crisp up and decided to trade himself. Boston wanted him to fill that role, that’s why he was traded.
Crisp played left for the Indians alongside Sizemore. Who replaced him when he left?? Jason Michaels. Who the hell is Jason Michaels??
You really think the Indians traded for Marte just to get rid of Crisp, only to have Jason Michaels fill in the next season??
No. They traded Crisp to get Marte.
-C
And on the twice in an off season idea...
means the Red Sox might have planned on flipping him in the first place. But here’s more on the idea of Marte as a big time prospect.
It’s a cautionary tale for teams that become too wedded to the potential of their farm system. Sure, top prospects can change the outlook of a franchise’s future. We’ve seen in happen twice in the past two years in the AL East, with the Rays single-year reformation running concurrent with Boston’s infusion of homegrown talent in both its rotation (Jon Lester) and bullpen (Jonathan Papelbon and Manny Delcarmen). Yet for all the success stories, there are many more that end in an organization’s disappointment and a tattered career, which is precisely where Marte finds himself until he lands on a new club.
http://voices.washingtonpost.com/baseball-insider/2009/02/why_you_cant_count_on_prospect.html
perhaps the finest prospect in baseball, Andy Marte
http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/article/trade-review-andy-marte-and-edgar-renteria/
That's the case of the Pirates for example
But the Braves do a much better job in development than most teams. I trust it a lot, so I think at least 2 of those 5 will be special pitchers.
by Alvaro Andres Pizza Varela on May 27, 2010 9:01 PM EDT up reply actions
The Crisp deal wasn't straight up...
Varela was wrong there. It was Crisp, Josh Bard (not Daniel Bard as I said above), and David Riske for Marte, Guillermo Mota, Kelly Shoppach, cash, and a ptbnl (Randy Newsom). according to baseball-reference.
by Mr. Sanchez on May 27, 2010 12:47 PM EDT up reply actions
It was basically Crisp for Marte.
The others were throw ins. Marte was goind downhill, that’s the point. Once again. No real top prospect is traded twice in the same offseason.
by Alvaro Andres Pizza Varela on May 27, 2010 12:50 PM EDT up reply actions
You do when you are trying to win…its sacrifices that must be made…
Brandon W: "What's up Heyward?"
Jason H: "Hangin with Freddie, What you up to Brandon?"
Brandon W: "nothing much."
by bwellnjonesco on May 26, 2010 4:35 PM EDT up reply actions
If you want to win one year and then lose 5 straight years, like has happened with the Braves.
If you want to contend every year, you trade your veterans and develop young talent on the cheap in the majors. That’s the Twins and Tampa model. And don’t tell me the Twins always draft with high draft picks.
by Alvaro Andres Pizza Varela on May 27, 2010 1:15 AM EDT up reply actions
How many division titles did we win consecutively with Schuerholz??
Pretty sure it was more than the Twins or the Rays. Sure, there’s a different GM, but it’s more or less the same structure as far as I can tell.
Seemed to work well enough before…think it will probably work again, altho I would never expect so many in a row to ever happen again. By any team.
The Braves model works just fine. Everyone’s got to rebuild at some point and it looks like we’ve reached the tail end of that period.
-C
Thank You
Thats 14 straight division titles, a record in all of professional sports…
Brandon W: "What's up Heyward?"
Jason H: "Hangin with Freddie, What you up to Brandon?"
Brandon W: "nothing much."
by bwellnjonesco on May 27, 2010 10:47 AM EDT up reply actions
The Braves model works very well
If they keep the prospects and develop them in the bigs.
Trading your farm system for rentals is the sure way to contend one year and lose 5 straight then.
by Alvaro Andres Pizza Varela on May 27, 2010 11:58 AM EDT up reply actions
"the sure way to contend one year and lose 5 straight then."
or maybe contend for 15 straight, one or the other right?
You’ve found a grand total of two bad deals. What else ya got where we dealt a batch of prospects and they turned out all world? I’ve got quite a few where they turned into pretty insignificant losses.
by Mr. Sanchez on May 27, 2010 12:08 PM EDT up reply actions
It's funny, because the Braves contended all those years with homegrown talent.
Smoltz, Justice, Glavine, Avery, Lemke, Chipper, Javy Lopez, Klesko, Blauser, Andruw Jones, Ron Gant, Milwood, Furcal, McCann, Rocker, Ligtenberg, Marcus Giles (who used to be good), Wholers, Mike Stanton, Blauser.
Great teams don’t trade their homegrown talent for rentals. Those two bad deals regressed the Braves to five years of mediocrity.
If the Braves had Wainright, Feliz and Andrus, they would be by far the best team in the National League, with a chepaer payroll.
by Alvaro Andres Pizza Varela on May 27, 2010 12:29 PM EDT up reply actions
I put Blauser twice, fail.
by Alvaro Andres Pizza Varela on May 27, 2010 12:30 PM EDT up reply actions
Ligtenberg was acquired through trade...
and you are conveniently omitting the numerous deals we made giving up prospects to add players during the time like Andy Ashby, Fred McGriff, Denny Neagle, Gary Sheffield, among several others.
But you know what, you’ve pretty much got yourself convinced that you know every angle of this subject and this is getting pretty worthless to continue discussing.
by Mr. Sanchez on May 27, 2010 12:51 PM EDT up reply actions
But you know what, you’ve pretty much got yourself convinced that you know every angle of this subject and this is getting pretty worthless to continue discussing.
This.
"UNLIKE CYBORG REYES JOJO MY CPU DOES NOT REQUIRE 'EARNED RUNS' FOR NOURISHMENT"
by Smoltz's Beard on May 27, 2010 1:27 PM EDT up reply actions
And you don't seem to get my point either.
The Ligtenberg trade is exactly the opposite of what some are suggesting here.
The Braves traded for a prospect who could be cheap and productive instead of trading for a veteran who could be unproductive and expensive.
I’m just saying. The team should give the chance to TOP PROSPECTS in the majors instead of trading them for veterans who are expensive and produce less.
The John Smoltz trade is another proof. The Tigers wanted to contend one year and gave up a future hall of famer.
That’s dumb, that’s stupid, that’s what crappy franchises do.
by Alvaro Andres Pizza Varela on May 27, 2010 1:38 PM EDT up reply actions
Let's try another since you are being selective...
1995, we send prospect Andre King to I think the White Sox for Mike Devereaux. That’s a prospect “who could be cheap and productive” dealt for a veteran that cost more, wasn’t going to be here past that half a season, and could be unproductive. But he wasn’t, and helped us win a World Series while Andre King crapped out into a player that never made AA.
See, sometimes trading prospects for veterans is actually a good idea.
I’m pretty sure Andre King was a 2nd round pick and a fairly highly thought of prospect at the time too.
I wrote a novel, it's about baseball, you should buy it: https://www.createspace.com/3407939
www.dropoutproductions.com
If I'm not mistaken...
within a year or two of us dealing him for Devereaux, he said f’ baseball, and went back to playing football as a WR for the Miami Hurricanes and a short NFL career. He’s now head coach for football and athletics director at Loganville Christian Academy in the Atlanta area, according to wiki.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andre_King
Yes. He played for the Browns in the NFL. He was drafted cause he graduated HS in the US, but he was originally from Africa.
I wrote a novel, it's about baseball, you should buy it: https://www.createspace.com/3407939
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I really don't know who Andre King was, so I can't speak with knowledge in that case
by Alvaro Andres Pizza Varela on May 27, 2010 2:13 PM EDT up reply actions
Funny how that tends to work out with some of these ...
“prospect for veteran” deals. And that is kind of our point. Sometimes they turn into future all stars, sometimes they turn into “who? never heard of him.”
You are missing a point.
In that time, most fans weren’t that invested in the farm system of the teams they follow. There was not enough information available to the public and internet was starting.
Now anybody can go to fangraphs, minorleaguesplits.com, statcorner.com, minorleaguebaseball.com
Or just type in google about minor leagues and find all kind of scouting reports and opinions. So it’s easier to evaluate a prospect now than it was 15 years ago. There are new evaluation tools.
10 years ago I wouldn’t have known about kids in GCL or Danville or the Dominican and Venezuelan leagues.
by Alvaro Andres Pizza Varela on May 27, 2010 9:06 PM EDT up reply actions
You put Smoltz
Fail. He came from the Tigers.
-C
by cthabeerman on May 27, 2010 12:54 PM EDT up reply actions
Smoltz was acquired the same way these guys want to do with Braves prospects
He was a great prospect in Detroit acquired for a veteran starter who gave Detroit few innings.
Don’t you think Detroit fans regret that trade?
Smoltz is homegrown too, he spent time in the Braves affiliates.
by Alvaro Andres Pizza Varela on May 27, 2010 1:23 PM EDT up reply actions
Go through the 15 year run and find all the deals they made to acquire rental players. Just because the only guy to really pan out of all that was Wainwright doesn’t mean that every Steve Hacker and Marc Lewis couldn’t have come back to haunt them.
I wrote a novel, it's about baseball, you should buy it: https://www.createspace.com/3407939
www.dropoutproductions.com
Tell me which of those prospects for rentals panned out.
Also, McGriff wasn’t a rental. He played 4 and a half seasons with Atlanta.
by Alvaro Andres Pizza Varela on May 27, 2010 12:44 PM EDT up reply actions
Mike Deveraux, Terry Pendleton, Greg Colbrunn, Alejandro Pena, there’s a long list of midseason trades the Braves traded prospects for.
I wrote a novel, it's about baseball, you should buy it: https://www.createspace.com/3407939
www.dropoutproductions.com
pretty sure Pendelton was brought in as a free agent
by Mr. Sanchez on May 27, 2010 12:53 PM EDT up reply actions
I'm talking about the prospects the Braves gave up for those veterans.
by Alvaro Andres Pizza Varela on May 27, 2010 1:28 PM EDT up reply actions
See above...
the prospects we gave up for them rarely, if at all, contributed above AA. It’s easy to blast deals by saying these prospects panned out, while ignoring the countless deals we’ve made to acquire veteran contributors for players that never turned into even decent minor leaguers.
Were they top prospects?
I’m talking about prospects as Delgado, Teheran, Minor, Vizcaino.
Do you think the Yankees are happy for giving Vizcaino away for Vasquez?
by Alvaro Andres Pizza Varela on May 27, 2010 1:46 PM EDT up reply actions
And if we say...
dealt Vizcaino next week straight up for Jayson Werth, and then he craps out or blows out his elbow in AA, the short term rental for prospect with potential for high production at a low price would work out right? Are you getting the point now?
Using his logic...
Also, that means Vizcaino was never a top prospect because he was traded twice in the same year.
-C
because we resigned him, not because he wasn't a pending free agent...
get your facts right.
by Mr. Sanchez on May 27, 2010 12:52 PM EDT up reply actions
He resigned because he wanted to stay.
And when trading for a guy, you must know if he wants to stay and not lose him in free agency.
by Alvaro Andres Pizza Varela on May 27, 2010 12:55 PM EDT up reply actions
You can’t know things like that! It’s impossible! Your logic is so freaking stupid it baffles me.
I wrote a novel, it's about baseball, you should buy it: https://www.createspace.com/3407939
www.dropoutproductions.com
Scott Boras clients don't resign before free agency
Everybody in baseball industry knows that. Seems you are the only one who doesn’t know.
Scott Boras clients don’t give hometown discounts, Scott Boras clients look for the maximun dollars in a contract.
It’s not a stupid logic. Roy Halladay signed for less with Phily because he wanted to go to Philly and stay in Philladelphia. Don’t you think the Phillies evaluated that before the trade?
by Alvaro Andres Pizza Varela on May 27, 2010 12:59 PM EDT up reply actions
Or because we had Ted Turner and could pay top dollar...
that probably helped. But then, it’s nice saying we made a great deal for McGriff because he resigned and the prospects were all busts but Tex was a horrible deal because he left and the prospects turned out great.
I hope I didn’t come across as this big of a jackass when I discussed the Tex deal as bad because I felt we had a lot bigger holes to fill than just 1B.
Exactly, the Braves can't do that anymore
Ted Turner ain’t the owner.
by Alvaro Andres Pizza Varela on May 27, 2010 2:15 PM EDT up reply actions
Oh, you mean Fred McGriff was Mark Texiera 10 years earlier? A top of the league 1st baseman who was too expensive for his old team, that the Braves traded the farm for and they got lucky and he stayed with them? Wow, so when it works out they look like geniuses but when it doesn’t they’re idiots.
I wrote a novel, it's about baseball, you should buy it: https://www.createspace.com/3407939
www.dropoutproductions.com
My differences...
I think we were a stronger overall team when we made the McGriff deal, and have said time and again I felt we had too many holes for Tex to push us over the top (in the bullpen and after Smoltz/Huddy in the rotation). That and the overall prospect haul was different in both upside of the prospects and the overall amount. Tex had Mahay included with him, but I’ve made my opinion on the Tex deal pretty clear. It was the combination of overall team + amount of prospects that caught my ire, and did it AT THE TIME OF THE DEAL, not through 20/20 hindsight.
I wouldn’t write the Rays off as being horrid in a fews years just yet. They have plenty of good players they did not draft. You don’t have to have top 5 or 10 draft picks to get a good farm.
I never said I did
However, their budget may cause a fire sale pretty soon. In a few more years, they’re either going to have to significantly raise their payroll or they’ll look like the Marlins of the AL.
Crawford will just be the first domino to fall.
-C
The Marlins have been a contending team the last few years
So their model is good. And now they have a new stadium to keep the good players in the team. If the Rays get a new stadium watch out.
Crawford will be replaced with Desmond Jennings. They’ll have almost the same production without paying top dollars.
by Alvaro Andres Pizza Varela on May 27, 2010 12:01 PM EDT up reply actions
The biggest IMO
Was Matt Harrison. Who was the FIRST pitcher to win 16 of his first 30 starts in the ML.
The base paths belonged to me, the runner. The rules gave me the right. I always went into a bag full speed, feet first. I had sharp spikes on my shoes. If the baseman stood where he had no business to be and got hurt, that was his fault. -Ty Cobb
Or maybe 14, i dunno. I didnt check but I heard it on BT.
The base paths belonged to me, the runner. The rules gave me the right. I always went into a bag full speed, feet first. I had sharp spikes on my shoes. If the baseman stood where he had no business to be and got hurt, that was his fault. -Ty Cobb
Harrison probably would have never made more than a few starts for us…would have had similar results as JoJo..
Brandon W: "What's up Heyward?"
Jason H: "Hangin with Freddie, What you up to Brandon?"
Brandon W: "nothing much."
by bwellnjonesco on May 26, 2010 6:56 PM EDT up reply actions
Wait, you’re worried about Matt Harrison? In 6 starts this year he has a 5.29 ERA and a 1.44 WHIP. In 32 starts over 3 seasons he’s got a 5.67 ERA and a 1.57 WHIP. And, he has trouble staying healthy. I’m not really sure how he’s any better than Jo Jo Reyes.
I wrote a novel, it's about baseball, you should buy it: https://www.createspace.com/3407939
www.dropoutproductions.com
worried?
Thats a terrible choice for wording. I would say that initially I hated the trade. Now I still hate it, just a little bit less. Harrison might not have ended up with many opportunities, but at one point, he was our best pitching prospect.
The base paths belonged to me, the runner. The rules gave me the right. I always went into a bag full speed, feet first. I had sharp spikes on my shoes. If the baseman stood where he had no business to be and got hurt, that was his fault. -Ty Cobb
Yeah, when our pitching prospects were uncharacteristically thin.
I wrote a novel, it's about baseball, you should buy it: https://www.createspace.com/3407939
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True.
But I never laid any stipulations saying that wasnt the case.
Andrus and Feliz were guys I couldnt wait to see in an Atlanta uni, thats for sure.
The base paths belonged to me, the runner. The rules gave me the right. I always went into a bag full speed, feet first. I had sharp spikes on my shoes. If the baseman stood where he had no business to be and got hurt, that was his fault. -Ty Cobb
Harrison was never a top prospect
by Alvaro Andres Pizza Varela on May 26, 2010 10:10 PM EDT up reply actions
BA ranked him behind only Salty and Andrus in our farm system in 2007
The base paths belonged to me, the runner. The rules gave me the right. I always went into a bag full speed, feet first. I had sharp spikes on my shoes. If the baseman stood where he had no business to be and got hurt, that was his fault. -Ty Cobb
Harrison always had control problems and couldn't strike out anyone to save his life.
He was considered a 5th starter type. And that’s what he is now.
by Alvaro Andres Pizza Varela on May 27, 2010 12:39 AM EDT up reply actions
Yes, for us he was.
"UNLIKE CYBORG REYES JOJO MY CPU DOES NOT REQUIRE 'EARNED RUNS' FOR NOURISHMENT"
by Smoltz's Beard on May 27, 2010 10:33 AM EDT up reply actions
That doesn’t mean he was great. The Braves top 5 pitching prospects would be number 1 in like 15 teams.
Also, sometimes top prospects get that grade because they are nearer the big leagues. I think Harrison was in AAA at the time of the trade, while Feliz and Andrus were in lower affilliates. It’s about scouting and results. Harrison ceiling and results were not that good.
by Alvaro Andres Pizza Varela on May 27, 2010 12:05 PM EDT up reply actions
Who cares about the wins…he pitched horribly and was bailed out by his offense.
"UNLIKE CYBORG REYES JOJO MY CPU DOES NOT REQUIRE 'EARNED RUNS' FOR NOURISHMENT"
by Smoltz's Beard on May 27, 2010 10:32 AM EDT up reply actions
Not exactly...
in some starts sure, but he has a handful of gems in there. And of course no one can say how he’d look if he continued developing here, and possibly spent a little longer in the minors before coming up.
by Mr. Sanchez on May 27, 2010 11:17 AM EDT up reply actions
2010: 3 QS out of 6 starts
2009: 2 QS out of 11starts
2008: 6 QS out of 15 starts
Not terrible impressive. I will say that the majority of his wins came in games where he pitched well. Only three wins showed him giving up more than 3 runs (4, 6, 4), so I was a little off. However, I’m also seeing alot of starts where he pitched 5 innings at the most while giving up a ton of runs.
All in all, I don’t miss the guy.
"UNLIKE CYBORG REYES JOJO MY CPU DOES NOT REQUIRE 'EARNED RUNS' FOR NOURISHMENT"
by Smoltz's Beard on May 27, 2010 11:27 AM EDT up reply actions
Oh, he's had his down moments for sure...
all I was saying was he had some good outings too, a helluva lot more than Jojo Reyes has ever had. And of course, if he spends all of 2008 in AAA developing here, then is slated for our 09 rotation making Lowe or Kawakami unneccessary after we trade for Vazquez eliminating one of those seemingly excessive salaries, well, now we’re just going too far into the what if game and you get where I’m going.
Basically, as you admit, he has done more than just be bailed out by the Texas O, and actually had a couple of pretty strong outings. He’s also had his share of bad ones too, and is clearly not the player to regret in that deal using 20/20 hindsight.
by Mr. Sanchez on May 27, 2010 11:43 AM EDT up reply actions
Why do people in this blog keep saying “if he had stayed here it would have been different?”
It’s like the third time I read that nonsense. Do you think Pujols would be better if he were in Atlanta? Or Tim Lincecum?
Players are what they are. They are good or bad no matter where they play.
by Alvaro Andres Pizza Varela on May 27, 2010 12:07 PM EDT up reply actions
do you know what would have happened if he was with McDowell
or spent all of 2008 in AAA continuing to refine things? I’m not saying he’d have become the next Glavine, but yes, with a different team, different coaches, and a different timeframe for arriving in the majors, all those “different” = “different” results. Not neccessarily better, nor worse, but damn sure not the same.
by Mr. Sanchez on May 27, 2010 12:14 PM EDT up reply actions
Logic! It’s so rare.
I wrote a novel, it's about baseball, you should buy it: https://www.createspace.com/3407939
www.dropoutproductions.com
Harrison was a crappy prospect.
And if he were in Atlanta he’d be a crappy pitcher, like in Texas.
by Alvaro Andres Pizza Varela on May 27, 2010 12:43 PM EDT up reply actions
KK can sympathize
Smart people are blessed with having a stop sign between their brain and their mouth.
I’m excited about this kid. We have some really good pitching prospects. I love keeping up with the minor leagues and this site makes it so much easier! Thank you so much TC! :D
Don't stop...beleeevin'!
by MBL1 on May 26, 2010 3:21 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
When does he move up to AAA?
God typed "iddqd" before creating Jason Heyward.
Yes, I meant AA. Whoops.
God typed "iddqd" before creating Jason Heyward.
epic fail
even if done in jest.
by apoxonbothyourhouses on May 26, 2010 3:55 PM EDT up reply actions
Rotation of Hanson, Jurrjens, Delgado, Teheran, Viz in a couple years sure looks promising. But then we also have Medlen. Wow, we’d have to move at least one of them. Maybe Jurrjens? His agent is with the group we have said we would no longer deal with. And that brings up another question – do we still hold that stance, or have we since backed off?
I think we had to officially back off because such a tactic is against the rules. However, unofficially I still think Schuerholz and Wren have their middle finger fully extended…
-C
I thought he was as well
[only built for cuban linx]
by Mighty Healthy on May 26, 2010 3:54 PM EDT up reply actions
He is.
"UNLIKE CYBORG REYES JOJO MY CPU DOES NOT REQUIRE 'EARNED RUNS' FOR NOURISHMENT"
by Smoltz's Beard on May 26, 2010 3:55 PM EDT up reply actions
And Yunel, too.
"UNLIKE CYBORG REYES JOJO MY CPU DOES NOT REQUIRE 'EARNED RUNS' FOR NOURISHMENT"
by Smoltz's Beard on May 26, 2010 3:58 PM EDT up reply actions
How about Minor and Lopez?
by Alvaro Andres Pizza Varela on May 26, 2010 3:52 PM EDT up reply actions
Diamond doesn't project as a top of the rotation starter
But he can be a seviciable 4th starter for the minimum. That’s a valuable asset and if the Braves are loaded with better talent, then he can be a great long reliever, spot starter or a Mike Remlinger type.
by Alvaro Andres Pizza Varela on May 26, 2010 4:28 PM EDT up reply actions
JJ will most likely be dealt, and you forgot Minor who will be ready long before Del, Teh, or Viz.
"UNLIKE CYBORG REYES JOJO MY CPU DOES NOT REQUIRE 'EARNED RUNS' FOR NOURISHMENT"
by Smoltz's Beard on May 26, 2010 3:54 PM EDT up reply actions
JJ will be traded for a bat
and the rotation will be:
Teheran, Viz, Hanson, Delgado and Minor
if projections hold true. Teheran is a Lincecum-clone (but bigger) and Viz is, from all scouting i’ve read, special with 3-4 PLUS PLUS pitches.
by apoxonbothyourhouses on May 26, 2010 3:57 PM EDT up reply actions
I don’t think he should move to Miss yet. On another note, and speaking of pitching: Teheran’s line from this morning game: 6IP 4H 0R 2BB 2K :)
Very exciting! The kid didn’t get the K total up and still apparently had an outstanding game! Discuss…………
Double fail: morning’s
I wrote a novel, it's about baseball, you should buy it: https://www.createspace.com/3407939
www.dropoutproductions.com
Hey CB, since you are on here. I am heading up to MB in a couple of weeks, other than pitchers is there anyone I should keep an eye on? I remember seeing Sime play vs. the Riverdogs but that is all.
I like the catchers, Sucre and Kennelly, but they’re both just average players who could develop into good backups or platoon type catchers. Cole Miles has really improved this year, but again, he’s not necessarily special. Same for Luis Sumoza, who showed promise but hasn’t been able to produce the last few years. Sime hits for a good average but it’s all singles. He’s a big guy, so maybe he’ll learn to loft a few.
Honestly, aside from Adam Milligan, who may or may not still be hurt when you see them, there’s not a lot to get really excited about. Some Ok players who could blossom into fringe Major Leaguers, but mostly guys who probably won’t get past AA.
I wrote a novel, it's about baseball, you should buy it: https://www.createspace.com/3407939
www.dropoutproductions.com
Barring injury, at least 2 of the 5 big arms will be valuable for the Braves for at least the 6 years of service time.
by Alvaro Andres Pizza Varela on May 26, 2010 3:51 PM EDT reply actions
I demand all 5 of them mature perfectly and on the same timetable.
"UNLIKE CYBORG REYES JOJO MY CPU DOES NOT REQUIRE 'EARNED RUNS' FOR NOURISHMENT"
by Smoltz's Beard on May 26, 2010 3:58 PM EDT up reply actions
As Ellis Boyd Redding at the end of Shawshank Redemption
I hope I can cross the border
I hope I can see my friend and shake his hand
I hope the pacific is as blue as it has been in my dreams.
I HOPE.
by Alvaro Andres Pizza Varela on May 26, 2010 4:32 PM EDT up reply actions
Maybe it’s because I’m Irish.
"UNLIKE CYBORG REYES JOJO MY CPU DOES NOT REQUIRE 'EARNED RUNS' FOR NOURISHMENT"
by Smoltz's Beard on May 26, 2010 5:02 PM EDT up reply actions
What's his record?...
Jeff Schultz doesn’t get why this kid is such a big deal. Yeliar Castro and Matt Crim are clearly better prospects.
lolz
"Yeah, and I have an enchanted jock strap." -- Karl Karlson
by Jacob Peterson on May 26, 2010 9:46 PM EDT up reply actions
Yes. Unless my sarcasm detector is way off.
I think he’s referencing Schultz’s claims of KK being the worst FA signing in history based on his W-L record.
Help me! Some bullies threw my shoes over a telephone wire...with me in them!!
by !Vive la Francoeur! on May 27, 2010 12:25 AM EDT up reply actions
Im pretty sure with all of this pitching
we are going to end up doing another Wainright for JD Drew trade. Sad but true. Just hope it isnt a one year rental.
There’s nothing wrong with dealing from minor league positions of strength to improve the major league club.
There is something wrong. You are paying a lot of money for aging talent. And for less service time. That’s the way incompetent organizations work.
by Alvaro Andres Pizza Varela on May 26, 2010 10:13 PM EDT up reply actions
So if you had 10 awesome starting pitchers and zero good outfielders and the offense was killing you, you wouldn’t trade pitching for some outfield help? That’s all I’m saying. Why waste a surplus like that by only fielding an excellent pitching staff when you could use it to form both an excellent pitching staff and some upgrades at other positions.
the point that we are both making
is to not do that trade for a one year rental. Say a slugger like Nelson Cruz was available and the Rangers said give us (Delgado, Gearrin, Milligan, and Hicks) thats one situation but if Troy Glaus has more problems with his foot and we run to the Astros with a package of equal value for say Lance Berkman then that would be foolish.
by drumzalicious on May 27, 2010 12:24 AM EDT up reply actions
If you really believed you were 1 player away from being a legitimate world series contender, you wouldn’t trade A level prospects from a position of extreme depth?
not for a one year rental
most of the time there isnt ONE player that entirely changes the dynamic of the team most of the times when its been a complete turn around its been a pitcher (Sabathia, Lee, etc.)
by drumzalicious on May 27, 2010 1:36 AM EDT up reply actions
But that's not the case with the Braves
The Braves have a good core of everyday players who are young.
Heyward, Yunel, McCann, Melky, Freeman, Prado are all 27 or younger.
It’s not necessary to trade great pitching prospects for veterans who are expensive and on the downside of their careers. Develop them because they all are not going to be aces. And construct the best starting pitching in the ML.
Those who don’t reach their ceiling can be very good bullpen guys or trade bait. But not before seeing what can they do in the ML.
by Alvaro Andres Pizza Varela on May 27, 2010 12:45 AM EDT up reply actions
I’m not saying it is the case. But if the opportunity and need were to arise, the Braves would be foolish not to address it.
You are counting on all the prospects being top of the rotation prospects. That’s not going to happen. Injuries happen, lack of command happens, facing tougher competition happens.
The minors are a darwinian fight to see who is the best and who gets relegated.
You are also counting every starter right now will stay in Atlanta or not decline.
Kawakami and Lowe will be gone once their contracts finish.
Hudson will decline with age
Jurjens could leave once he is a free agent (He is a Boras client)
Medlen could be just a reliever
Hanson could get injured.
You don’t know. That’s the reason the smart approach is to develop more than needed, and not trade them, because teams never have enough pitching.
by Alvaro Andres Pizza Varela on May 27, 2010 1:07 AM EDT up reply actions
How are you supposed to address organizational needs then if you are never willing to deal from a surplus? You can argue that any surplus at any position can disappear with injuries and ineffectiveness. You obviously think trading young pitching is never a good idea so what would you do?
Do the same the Braves do to develop good pitching with hitting and defense.
If you have surplus pitching and not hitting, maybe it’s because the team isn’t investing enough in the draft or in the international market for hitters and defense. Maybe the scouting is not that good with hitters, maybe the teachers and developers in the minors are not that good.
Or maybe it’s all Terry Pendleton’s fault.
Then the team will have enough prospects to keep pumping the majors with cheap, young and extraordinary talent.
by Alvaro Andres Pizza Varela on May 27, 2010 12:12 PM EDT up reply actions
Guess what. It’s not that easy to develop all-stars at every position unless you can see into every 19 year old’s future like you can. Teams have weaknesses for various reasons. You mentioned several of them. It happens. You’d be a fool not to deal from a position of strength to make up for your weaknesses. In the meantime, you can make some changes to the development system to prevent that weakness from occurring again but that doesn’t happen over night.
It's not easy to develop potential aces either and the Braves have 5 top of the rotation prospects who are the envy of the other 29 clubs
The Braves do a great job with pitching. There is something in there that they do better than most teams.
And the development of position players is not bad either. But it’s still not at the level of the pitching development, it can improve.
If I were the GM, that’s the first thing I’d do. Find out what is the team doing so well with pitching development, and apply it to defense, baserunning and offense.
by Alvaro Andres Pizza Varela on May 27, 2010 8:59 PM EDT up reply actions
Drew was awesome.
Sure, it was only 1 year, but I have a hard time finding fault with that trade given the return we got. The trick is getting that good return and not trading away a valuable commodity for nothing, like the Tigers did in the Jurrjens/Renteria swap.
"Yeah, and I have an enchanted jock strap." -- Karl Karlson
by Jacob Peterson on May 26, 2010 9:52 PM EDT up reply actions
The trick is to keep the development of good players, so when players reach free agency, they can be replaced with players within the organization.
That’s the Tampa model, which is cheap and efficient. Trading premium talent for 1 or 2 years of a veteran is dumb.
Drew had an 8.5 WAR that year, but it was a career year. He has never surpassed 4.8 WAR since. So the Braves could have recieved only a 3 – 4 WAR year. Basically the Braves got lucky with Drew that year; it was not a smart trade even with Drew playing as great as he did.
Wainright has a 14.6 WAR and counting in his time with the Cardinals.
by Alvaro Andres Pizza Varela on May 26, 2010 10:26 PM EDT up reply actions
You have no idea what Drew would have done if he stayed a Brave. And the Tampa model? Are you kidding me? The Rays have less than 2 and a half years of playing well in their history. The one player that’s reached an age where he became too expensive for him was Scott Kazmir and they really didn’t get much value for him.
Yeah, they have an amazing farm system right now and they had the guys to replace Kazmir and will have the guy to replace Carl Crawford, but they’ve also had the advantage of drafting at the top of the draft for 10 years. If they keep winning they’re not going to have that advantage, heck, they couldn’t sign their first rounder last year, and they dont’ do well with international scouting so it’s not like they have that to fall back on. Once you take the advantages of losing horribly out of the equation their farm system will be bad in a few years, because all these prospect will either graduate to the Majors or flame out. Yes, they might be a good ML team for a few years, but the base just doesn’t exist like you seem to think it does.
I wrote a novel, it's about baseball, you should buy it: https://www.createspace.com/3407939
www.dropoutproductions.com
Are you really going to play the “if he stayed a Brave he could have been better” card? He is what he is. He had a career year with the Braves and then he regressed to what he really is, to his true talent. He ain’t Chase Utley or Albert Pujols.
Tampa has been a great team from the moment they got a serious front office. You can’t compare Chuck Lamar with Andrew Friedman.
They didn’t draft Matt Garza, Jason Barlett, Carlos Peña, Ben Zobrist, etc. It’s not just drafting at the top of the draft. If not, Pittsbugh and Kansas City would be powerhouses. The Braves have not had high draft picks due to all those years winning and they kept the farm in good shape. If a front office is capable, it will make good selections in the draft.
They admitted the mistake of Kazmir and got rid of him. That’s what good front offices do. Now they are giving the spot in the rotation to Wade Davis who is better and cheaper, that was the benefit.
Can’t you accept Tampa is an excellent managed team?
by Alvaro Andres Pizza Varela on May 27, 2010 12:55 AM EDT up reply actions
I guess we’ll see in 5 years who their “excellent management” has worked out.
I wrote a novel, it's about baseball, you should buy it: https://www.createspace.com/3407939
www.dropoutproductions.com
I wouldn’t write the Rays off as being horrid in a few years just yet. They have plenty of good players they did not draft. You don’t have to have top 5 or 10 draft picks to get a good farm, or else the crappy teams would have great farms or be good long before the Rays. You honestly don’t think they have a good FO?
But I don’t see the Braves using them as a model, since AF said he looked at the Braves among others as a model for him.
They got Matt Garza (who was a 1st round pick) and Jason Bartlett (who’s only had 1 god season) for Delmon Young (who was a first overall pick), Jason Pridie (who was a second round pick), and Brendan Harris. So having high draft picks certainly helped create that situation.
They got insanely lucky with Carlos Pena, a former first rounder who they signed as a Minor league free agent. It’s a shocking victory that will likely never happen again, but certainly something the FO can be proud of. They can also take a ton of credit for Ben Zobrist, who they aqcuired when they couldn’t afford Aubrey Huff anymore.
Looking at the rest of the lineup, Dioner Navarro is just bad, Reid Brignac was a 45th overall pick, Evan Longoria was a 3rd overall pick, Carl Crawford was a 52nd overall pick, BJ Upton was a 2nd overall pick, David Price was a 1st overall pick, Jeff Niemann was a 4th overall pick, Wade Davis was a 3rd rounder, and James Shields was a find in the 16th round. Dan Wheeler was a savvy pickup and Grant Balfour was another lucky find in Minor League free agency. Rafael Soriano was clearly a good pickup, ultimately being able to flip Aki Iwamura for him.
So the FO has unearthed some surprising gems with Pena and Balfour, made some great moves in getting Wheeler, Soriano, and Zobrist, and used a number one overall pick to net themselves Garza and Bartlett.
But, they also have 4 players on their team who were picked 4th overall or higher in the draft. I guarantee there isn’t another team in baseball that can say that. They also add in 2 more who were high second rounders and a third rounder.
So a quarter of their roster is bult off of picking high in the draft, up to 32% if you count Delmon Young and Jason Pridie netting Garza and Bartlett. They also have exactly 0 players on the roster who they signed as international free agents. I’m guessing you probably wouldn’t find another ML team that could say that either.
Carl Crawford and Carlos Pena are free agents at the end of the year and the good bet is they lose both players. Crawford’s replacement is Desmond Jennings, but he’s looking like the old Jennings, getting hurt often and hitting poorly, .256 AVG .647 OPS. They have no viable first base prospect to replace Pena, so they’re either going to have to trade away some of their talent or sign a cheap, and likely ineffective, replacement.
And still, if you check BA’s top 30 prospects for them, only 5 players are foreign players they signed, and just 2 of them are in the top 15.
I’m sorry, I’m not seeing Tampa Bay as a prize model in how to run a team, not yet. They’ve been more dependent on having high draft picks than any other team, and they still haven’t won anything other than a division one time in their history. The Rays being able to succeed with high draft picks doesn’t make them smart, it just points out how dumb the Nationals, Pirates, and Royals are.
I wrote a novel, it's about baseball, you should buy it: https://www.createspace.com/3407939
www.dropoutproductions.com
And how about making good selections in the draft?
I know some of it is luck. But why do the Pirates and Royals and the Orioles and other teams always seem to not have any luck? San Diego one year, selected a local kid who everybody knew was total bust with the #1 overall pick, because they didn’t want to go over slot.
Tampa was the first team to evaluate defense and seize the advantage with undervalued players. Do you think that’s luck?
It’s about making savy moves.
by Alvaro Andres Pizza Varela on May 27, 2010 12:22 PM EDT up reply actions
Tampa Bay Fan?
I don’t understand why considering you say that your favorite team is Atlanta on your profile…
I don’t know much about prospects other than when you trade them, sometimes you win and sometimes you lose.
Think about the Yankees. They have the exact opposite model of the Rays. Heck, they just traded a bunch of prospects TO Atlanta for Vazquez…But guess who won the WS last year? How many have the Rays won? Red Sox and Phillies, are they like the Rays? They’ve won recently too…
I am not saying that the Braves should adopt a Yankees model (for they can’t), but I don’t think that a combination of young talent (like Hanson, Heyward, McCann, Escobar, JJ, etc.) and veterans (via trade or otherwise) is a bad thing. Sometimes the only way to get a guy in his prime (as opposed to the unknown of a prospect) is to trade for him (like Tex…or McGriff…or Drew…or Hudson).
You say that you want to give guys chances before being traded, but then their values may drop. Sometimes, a guy is worth more as a prospect BEFORE he’s stepped foot in the majors and fails…Every single All Star was a prospect at sometime and not all All Stars were home grown (which means they were either traded or released)…It’s just what happens…
As far as the Tex trade, I just do not see how our team would be significantly better with any of those prospects. If I use the 20/20 hindsight, I like Prado, McCann and Escobar (when hitting) fine…I like our young pitching guys like Medlen, Hanson, JJ (A GUY WE TRADED FOR), Venters, Kimbrel, and all the other arms we have in the system. Salty? I could care less right now…
What the Braves lack, if anything, is speed and power from the hitters. Look at the first basemen the Braves have had over the last few season: Fick? Brogna? LaRoche? Thorman? Franco? All one-and-dones (including Tex)…We had to get a big bat and we may have missed out…But I don’t regret it…the Phillie traded for Halladay and I don’t think they’ll regret that either…
1. I’m a Braves fan. And I admire the Tampa model.
2. Since Cashman took over the Yankees. They are reluctant to trade top prospects for veterans (Chamberlain, Montero, Hughes). And they have the luxury of doing it sometimes because they can keep the players they trade for. The Braves can’t do that.
3. Yankees fans HATED the Vasquez trade. They loath that trade. You want to piss off a Yankee fan? Talk about the Vasquez trade.
4. I know values may drop, but they may rise. That’s the business of baseball. And that one prospect who rises is worth more than all those whose values drop combined. Patience, is necessary to have patience and not get desperate.
5. The Teixeira trade affected the Braves depth. They got desperate getting in bidding wars in free agency and ended up overpaying for two mediocre starters. They also almost signed Furcal, which would have meant Prado would have never been a starter. Also Andrus is better than Prado and Furcal, and cheaper.
6. The Phillies traded for Halladay and an extension with a hometown discount. So they have him for 4 years not just one year of Teixeira.
7. Jurjens is another case of a team getting desperate and giving a present to other team. Renteria had a lucky 2007, the Braves sold high and the Tigers were screwed with an out of shape Renteria for all the 2008 season. And the Braves? They stole a top prospect. Thanks Detroit
by Alvaro Andres Pizza Varela on May 27, 2010 2:05 PM EDT up reply actions
It's Vazquez with a Z not an S
Okay…Sorry…It was bothering me…
You kind of made my point. I am really only concerned about the Braves. According to your list, we won the Vazquez trade and the Jair trade, but lost the Tex trade. See…In this small sample size, we are 2-1…Your response may be that Vizcaino and Dunn may flame out and never do anything causing the Yankees to “win,” but that wouldn’t be consistent with your arguments above…So we win. We won the Hudson trade based on your Halladay logic and we lost the Wainwright trade…Once again…win some/lose some…
Obviously, if we all had hindsight, we’d all be better at buying/selling stocks and our fantasy teams would be incredible each season…Same with being a baseball GM…Unfortunately, we don’t and guys like me keep drafting guys like Tomlinson praying that he doesn’t injure himself yet again…
As far as Andrus > Prado…Really? Not even going to discuss this…They are quite similar, really…Do you think if we swapped Prado for Andrus we’d be that much better? Nope.
Similar? Andrus is a gold glover caliber 21 years old, Prado is a mediocre 2B at 26
Andrus is an excellent baserunner. Prado can’t steal bases.
This year offensively they both have a .349 wOBA.
Prado is in his prime, Andrus is still developing. Who is better?
If a team can keep the player gotten in the trade it can be considered a tie. But the Braves knew JD Drew was gone after the 2004 season, and they knew Teixeira was gone.
They knew it because they were Boras clients. That’s the reason the trades were so baffling.
by Alvaro Andres Pizza Varela on May 27, 2010 8:50 PM EDT up reply actions
2-See Curtis Granderson for Austin Jackson
3-That wasn’t because of Arodys. It was because they remember the last time they had Javy.
6-Please find evidence of Halladay taking a “home town discount”. Pretty sure he was getting $20m per from whoever traded for him, be it Phily or anyone else.
In the open market Halladay could have gotten 25 million plus. He signed for 60 million – 3 years extension with Philly which is his hometown.
The Yankees can keep Granderson. The Braves couldn’t keep Teixeira or Drew, that’s the difference.
They like Melky, and they don’t trust Vasquez. If you add Vizcaino they hate it more.
by Alvaro Andres Pizza Varela on May 27, 2010 8:53 PM EDT up reply actions
"with Philly which is his hometown."
Or the Denver area, considering that’s where he’s from. But then being Columbian, we shouldn’t expect you to realize that’s over 1000 miles away on the other side of the continent.
by Mr. Sanchez on May 28, 2010 12:49 AM EDT up reply actions
The point is he wanted to go there and he was willing to sign for less to stay there. I read Philly was his hometown in ESPN, maybe he lives there in the offseason or he studied there.
by Alvaro Andres Pizza Varela on May 28, 2010 1:29 AM EDT up reply actions
I couldn’t care less right now…
"UNLIKE CYBORG REYES JOJO MY CPU DOES NOT REQUIRE 'EARNED RUNS' FOR NOURISHMENT"
by Smoltz's Beard on May 27, 2010 2:48 PM EDT up reply actions
+1
"UNLIKE CYBORG REYES JOJO MY CPU DOES NOT REQUIRE 'EARNED RUNS' FOR NOURISHMENT"
by Smoltz's Beard on May 27, 2010 3:07 PM EDT up reply actions
They have done what the Orioles and Blue Jays don't seem able to do
Compete 3 straight years with 10% of the payroll the Yankees and Red Sox have.
Learn to apreciate that.
And remember. Baltimore and Toronto are big markets. Toronto is the largest city in Canada and they have all Canada as their market.
Tampa is contending in a crappy ballpark and being the smallest market in their division.
If the Braves were in the AL East, there would be a lot of chickens complaining about the unfair advantage the Yanks and Sox have over Atlanta.
by Alvaro Andres Pizza Varela on May 27, 2010 12:16 PM EDT up reply actions
You seem to be ignoring the exchange rate in Canada and their higher taxes. They have to play players around 20% more to make their contract comparable to the money players get in the US. This is why big time free agents don’t go there.
And they’ve competed for 3 years, wow, what an accomplishment. They’ve won nothing so far. 3 years doesn’t mean squat. Call me back in 20 and we’ll reevaluate things.
I wrote a novel, it's about baseball, you should buy it: https://www.createspace.com/3407939
www.dropoutproductions.com
They are still a bigger market than Tampa. Much bigger. And how about Baltimore? What’s their excuse?
by Alvaro Andres Pizza Varela on May 27, 2010 12:42 PM EDT up reply actions
What are you even arguing now? I clearly said the other teams were dumb. But to say TB hasn’t built their success off of their failure is wrong as well. Find me a team with a higher percentage of their roster made up of high round draft picks. I dare you.
I wrote a novel, it's about baseball, you should buy it: https://www.createspace.com/3407939
www.dropoutproductions.com
Randall?
Help me! Some bullies threw my shoes over a telephone wire...with me in them!!
by !Vive la Francoeur! on May 27, 2010 12:30 AM EDT reply actions
Beat me to it
He certainly is a berserker
I thought hurricane season was over........
by bravesguy311 on May 27, 2010 9:02 AM EDT up reply actions
I’m over it. That guy is an effing idiot.
I wrote a novel, it's about baseball, you should buy it: https://www.createspace.com/3407939
www.dropoutproductions.com
I’m an idiot because I would like the team to keep the prospects instead of trading them for veterans who most likely won’t produce what the team expects from them. And even if they do, they are already expensive and pending for free agency.
Is that idiocy?
by Alvaro Andres Pizza Varela on May 27, 2010 1:30 PM EDT up reply actions
When you assume automatically that...
both the veterans won’t produce and the prospects will pan out, yes it is idiocy. You’ve got two trades in the extensive history of deals the Braves have made that turned out to cost us years of cheap, high quality production. Others have brought up several more where the veterans produced and the prospects turned to crap. Yes, focusing on 2 vs. many, many more to claim dealing prospects is always a bad idea is idiocy.
It's the most likely scenario
Also it’s better to make the mistake of giving the chance to the prospect. If he fails he can be traded or cut and he isn’t owed anything.
If you make the mistake of giving a veteran a big contract in free agency or trade a top prospect for an unproductive veteran, you can’t get out of that mistake for years.
Mistakes have to be cheap too.
by Alvaro Andres Pizza Varela on May 27, 2010 2:09 PM EDT up reply actions
You are the one offending. Not me.
by Alvaro Andres Pizza Varela on May 27, 2010 2:10 PM EDT reply actions
I'd like to meet you
Since your never ever wrong about anything concerning the game of baseball or anything. Is it not a clue to you that you have poor logic when the vast majority of educated fans on this site completely disagree with anything you say? Maybe its time for some self evaluation…..
"Look out Atlanta. Jason Heyward is going to wow you."
-Chipper
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