Lowe vs. Vazquez
by gondeee on Apr 28, 2010 2:29 PM EDT
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PrintAs I settle back into the daily routine in Atlanta after my trip to see Kansas City and St. Louis, I can't help but think about last night's starter, Derek Lowe, and how hard we tried to trade him this past off-season. Then I saw this article by Jeff Schultz where he says that dealing Javier Vazquez and re-signing Tim Hudson was the right move by Frank Wren. But Schultz is only half right.
Re-signing Tim Hudson was a no-brainer, and yes, so far looks like a good move. He was willing to give us a hometown discount, he proved he was healthy and could pitch again, and he had a track record of success. But Schultz' first point about trading Vazquez is a little off. He's making the point that because Vazquez has stunk it up with the Yankees so far this season that it's a good thing we got rid of him... then he goes on to quote Curt Schilling who says that Javy is a National League pitcher and not an American League pitcher (and that presumably he would not be having the kinds of problems he's having if he were in the NL).
While on the surface saying that trading away a guy with a 9.00 ERA was a good move, the reality is that he probably wouldn't have been that kind of pitcher if he had stayed in Atlanta (though, there is no way to find out.... or is there?). Buster Olney mentioned in his blog a few days back that the Braves could move Derek Lowe in a salary dump. Yep, we still need to get rid of this guy. I wonder, at this point, if the Yankees would be up for a Vazquez for Lowe swap? That's pure fiddle faddle on my part, but something the Yanks could consider if they were inclined to think that Lowe would be an upgrade (we could even give them Melky Cabrera back).
Another interesting scenario could have us trade Lowe (or dump Lowe) for whatever we could get in return, and then try and sign Vazquez next off-season. He may be begging to come back to Atlanta at that point, and we could offer him the same or similar deal that we gave Hudson, and hope and pray that he's better once he's back in the NL. The Hudson contract is three years guaranteed for a total of $28 million. After this year, Lowe has two years and $30 million left on his contract. That would be a nice swap.
This is mainly a pipe dream and fantasy trade scenarios run amok, and as bad as Lowe has done we should probably worry about the offense first, but it's never too early to put our thinking caps on.
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In public? You should be ashamed.
This guy wants to suck all the cubs dick can he not have an unbias some what partition reguards
by RWH2 on Apr 5, 2010 10:20 AM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Apr 28, 2010 2:34 PM EDT reply actions
I was going to say this...
And add that (in whatever fantasy world we seem to have phased into) if they’re up for the swap DO IT. If it were to take FW more than half a heartbeat to get Javy a ticket down here and throw Lowe out on his ass we ought to burn him in the public square.
A better pitcher for a cheaper price? Sold. Vazquez theoretically would give us a post-season rotation too – considering right now we only have one hard-throwing guy and a few soft-tossing control freaks.
Postseason pitching is all about power pitching. Vaz makes us that much better.
This guy wants to suck all the cubs dick can he not have an unbias some what partition reguards
by RWH2 on Apr 5, 2010 10:20 AM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Apr 28, 2010 2:43 PM EDT up reply actions
Didn't I start a thread for this very idea?...
I didn’t do it for my own enjoyment.
And as I recall, we had someone post a fan post or fan shot proposing that exact scenario and everyone laughed them off like they were an idiot.
Also, for rosterbation sake, I’d doubt Melky would be of too much interest to them with Granderson in CF and Gardner playing well. If the deal were Lowe and Arodys for Vasquez, would you do it gondee?
I thought the trade proposed by that individual was Vaz for Melky?
This guy wants to suck all the cubs dick can he not have an unbias some what partition reguards
by RWH2 on Apr 5, 2010 10:20 AM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Apr 28, 2010 6:11 PM EDT up reply actions
You noob
There’s a thread for this.
"(Jason Heyward) is like the Grim Reaper -- you know he's going to get you, you just don't know where or when."
by Scott Coleman on Apr 28, 2010 2:37 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
I just came.
Anyway, rosterbation aside, if this actually happened I would be ecstatic. Hell, any way we can get rid of Lowe’s ball-and-chain of a contract sounds good to me.
The third-base umpire ran into the outfield and retrieved the biggest chunk. "It's a f***in' potato."
by alligatorimpersonator on Apr 28, 2010 2:45 PM EDT reply actions
I’m sure it would never happen but I think that trade would work for both teams. Vazquez has proven he can’t pitch in high pressure markets while Lowe pitched well in a tough Boston market for a few years. However, I’m sure the Yankees are still holding out hope for some reason (because they’re idiots) that Vazquez can regain his previous form and Lowe provides them with no upside.
I’m not an insider so I don’t know what Olney said but it was made very clear that the Braves couldn’t dumb Lowe without eating a significant portion of his contract and I’m pretty sure he hasn’t done anything so far this year to change anyone’s mind.
I don't get the Vazquez fascination
He’s a good pitcher, but there was no way he was going to come close to repeating last year’s performance, NL or no NL. Is he better than Lowe? Yes, especially for the money he’s being paid. But let’s not romanticize him. We sold high on him and got 2 cheap and useful players and a top prospect in exchange for 1 year of his service. That’s a good deal, no matter how you cut it.
That said, I think a Lowe-for-Vazquez swap makes sense for both teams. I think both have about the same value in a neutral environment (~3.5-4 WAR), but Javy’s value is less in NY. Along the same lines, I think Lowe would thrive more in a bigger city—he loves the spotlight and has thrived in Boston and LA already. They’re both probably 2.5 WAR players where they are and 3.5 WAR players if the deal goes down.
Besides, it would be a perfect setup. With the Yanks’ offense, Lowe would get tons of DLWs. And with our offense, Javy would get tons of JVLs.
"Yeah, and I have an enchanted jock strap." -- Karl Karlson
Javy was roughly a 5 WAR pitcher for the 2006-2008 seasons in Chicago (4.8, 5.1, 4.8) and a 6.6 last year. His peripherals last year were stronger than usual but they have always been fairly strong. I think it is incredibly reasonable to think he could have been at least a 5 win pitcher in Atlanta this year.
They may have to hospitalize Sid Bream!
-We miss you Skip!
by RaymondBatista on Apr 28, 2010 3:35 PM EDT up reply actions
But the problem in the whole thing is...
if they wanted Lowe, they’d already have him. Yeah, it’d be great if the deal was Lowe and Boone Logan for Arodys, Dunn, and Brett Gardner. But I’m sure the Braves asked for Gardner instead of Melky, and for it to be Lowe instead of Javy. But I’m guessing the Yankees passed on both changes to the deal, and we got what we could for who we could move.
But let’s not romanticize him.
I don’t think you realize how good JV’s 2009 really was. K. Law though he was the second best pitcher in the NL last year. I did too.
With crappy overpaid vets of course!
by TheBravestWay To Block A Decent Prospect on Apr 28, 2010 6:06 PM EDT up reply actions
If the Yanks
would be willing to throw in a couple more prospects like Dunn and Vizcaino again, then I may do it.
I still think the better move would have been to keep Vasquez and either trade Lowe or (if there were no takers for Lowe) not re-sign Hudson. Then the Braves could either try to sign Vasquez to an extension, try to sign a different free agent pitcher next off season, or move Medlen to the rotation. Next best move would have been to pay the Yankees or somebody else to take Lowe. Getting out from under Lowe’s contract would have been worth a few million dollars. It’s early but there’s no sign so far that he’s going to be any better than last year. Bad, bad contract.
I was pissed when we traded Vasquez. I’d love to get him back. Give the Yanks Lowe and a mid level prospect like Cole Rohrbough for Vaz.
sigh if only we could trade Lowe for Vaz.
What if...
The Yanks agreed to a Lowe for Vaz swap if we paid the difference in their salaries. We’d still be on the hook for the $15 mill this year but we’d have Vaz in place of Lowe. I think that trade helps both clubs, IMO, this year. And if they want Melky back to make that happen, deal.
by murph35 on Apr 28, 2010 3:43 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
To Clarify
Yanks keep paying what they were for Vaz. We keep paying what we are for Lowe. No salaries exchange in the end, just the players
by murph35 on Apr 28, 2010 3:45 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I was thinking about this trade the other day, as well
Then I started thinking about a JJ for AGon swap and my vision started getting blurry so I had to stop what I was doing.
by Bobby Cocks on Apr 28, 2010 4:05 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Way too early for this ish
talking about trades in April? :shake
I don’t think anyone in the AL East would take Lowe with the way he’s pitched the past year plus. I just hope that somehow the Mets hang around, Omar gets desperate trying to save his job and we could unload Derek on them. In most any scenario, we would have to eat at least 12M to unload Derek and probably wouldn’t get much in return prospect wise.
Going after Vazquez this offseason would be great. He seemed to like it here and with his value taking a hit, we could get him at a deep discount, say 2 year, 18M. I just hope he’s so bad the Yankees don’t want to risk offering him arbitration.
"Four of us wolves, running around the desert together in Las Vegas, looking for strippers and cocaine..."
Javy helped pull the team together last year
He was a machine.
And speaking of hitting, dude is one of the best bunters I’ve ever seen.
"It looks like The Hound of the Baskervilles out there." - Steve Stone
"...I'm reminded of Wuthering Heights." - Harry Caray
~
"i’m going to keep stats on you for as long as it humors me….target is unclear" - BMacAttack (Hohn's queef)
by Chief Noc-A-Homa on Apr 28, 2010 6:07 PM EDT reply actions
Seriously?
This guy wants to suck all the cubs dick can he not have an unbias some what partition reguards
by RWH2 on Apr 5, 2010 10:20 AM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Apr 28, 2010 6:13 PM EDT up reply actions
He inspired.
"It looks like The Hound of the Baskervilles out there." - Steve Stone
"...I'm reminded of Wuthering Heights." - Harry Caray
~
"i’m going to keep stats on you for as long as it humors me….target is unclear" - BMacAttack (Hohn's queef)
by Chief Noc-A-Homa on Apr 28, 2010 6:15 PM EDT up reply actions
Honestly
His bunting was superb. How many times have KK, Hanson, and Jurrjens failed to properly drop down a sac?
No wonder nobody likes you, Tuttle... everything's a (Pujols) damn debate.
I was referring to the “he pulled this team together” bit.
This guy wants to suck all the cubs dick can he not have an unbias some what partition reguards
by RWH2 on Apr 5, 2010 10:20 AM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Apr 28, 2010 10:14 PM EDT up reply actions
I remember...
getting laughed and told I was an idiot when I said Vazquez was gonna have this kind of year and that it was a fantastic trade….
you're right
but its also that long for lowe, and everyone’s agreeing we should trade him….
by BravesRaleigh on Apr 28, 2010 6:33 PM EDT up reply actions
Heyward is getting the night off...
Escobar
Prado
Chipper
Glaus
Diaz
Melky
Ross
McLouth
"(Jason Heyward) is like the Grim Reaper -- you know he's going to get you, you just don't know where or when."
by Scott Coleman on Apr 28, 2010 6:23 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
He needed it
He’s played every game, and I think it’s wearing on him. He’s in another mini-skid, so a night off is probably for the best.
We always give someone else major the night off when McCann is not playing. Why is that?
This Heyward kid is different. -Duk, Big League Stew
by McCann and McWill on Apr 28, 2010 7:28 PM EDT up reply actions
Facts
Lowe is a AL pitcher
Vasquez is a NL pitcher
Plain and simple, Lowe had his best years while w/ the Bo-Sox and really Vasquez has done okay to average in the AL except one season when he was a All-star or something along those lines.
I swear we should hit the Yankees up and trade D. Lowe for Vasquez and now I bet you they jump at the trade b/c as much as D.Lowe has struggled Vasquez has looked that much worse.
Go Braves l
by Holty_Panthers_Fan on Apr 28, 2010 6:33 PM EDT reply actions
"Lowe had his best years while w/ the Bo-Sox"
Probably helped that he was in his prime at the time.
Oh and Lowe’s highest WAR’s actually came as a dodger…
"If I have asthma, they won't let me scuba. And if I can’t scuba, then what’s this all been about?? What am I working toward??"
"You look like you should be married to one of the San Diego Padres."
How about the pen?
If the Braves can’t dump Lowe(and they probably can’t) could we at least get him out of the rotation? The way he pitched last year looks amazingly similar to this year. I would rather give his starts to Medlen or anybody. I know you don’t pay a guy 15 mil per to pitch long relief but you don’t pay him that kind of money to get his friggin’ brains beat out every game either. I’m just sayin’……
The Cubs did it...
then again the Cubs are NUTS. I’m all about not giving big money next year to Javy or any other older pitcher. Let Medlen start. I think he’d do quite well as a #4/5.
"You guys. You lollygag the ball around the infield. You lollygag your way down to first. You lollygag in and out of the dugout. You know what that makes you? Larry!"
"Lollygaggers!"
"Lollygaggers"
Well
A friend of mine was really upset when Vasquez was traded. My take was that last year was a career year for him and moving him wasn’t such a bad move. It was very likely (from a predictability standpoint) that he wasn’t going to repeat his performance from 2009. Just like it was very likely that Chipper was going to be out of the lineup a lot in 2010. There are patterns.
The NL AL stuff? I think that stuff is overblown. It is harder pitching in the AL but good pitchers are good pitchers. If you are Edgar Renteria and you’ve played many years in one league and get shipped off after an off year that doesn’t mean you “can’t” play in the AL
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