Terry Pendleton Is Not a Bad Hitting Coach*
* Or at least, there is no evidence to suggest that he has been in the past.
Human nature dictates that someone must be to blame when well-made plans go awry. For some reason (convenience?), this scapegoat is always a single person, even when the fault clearly lies with a group, or with an organizational flaw that transcends any one member.
Nowhere is this trend more obvious--or more troubling--than in professional sports. Paradoxically, the lower a person is on a team's hierarchy, the more likely he is to be blamed for the team's ineptitude. Thus, we will often see a manager throw a hitting or pitching coach to the wolves so as to postpone his own demise. From a manager's perspective, this is an eminently logical action, but it is nonetheless unjust in most cases.
Why is it unjust? On the whole, very few hitting coaches have any discernible effect relative to other hitting coaches. There are two reasons for this: 1) most hitting coaches teach more or less the same techniques and have more or less the same observational abilities; and 2) hitting coaches just cannot have a very large effect in the first place (at the major league level anyway). By far the greatest determinants in a player's performance are his abilities and his age. There are a few hitting coaches who seem able to get slightly better results (Rudy Jaramillo, for example) and a few who seem wholly inadequate, but the vast majority have no real impact.
Which brings us to Terry Pendleton. There has been a great deal of hue and cry on TC and other Braves sites, with commenters calling for TP to be axed and offering up scant anecdotal evidence as "proof" of his inadequacies. After the jump, I delve more deeply into the issue. (WARNING: Do not click "Continue Reading" unless you are prepared to base your conclusions on data instead of emotion.)
Rather than base this study on a half-season of Jeff Francoeur and three weeks of Kelly Johnson, I thought I'd shoot for a more robust data set. I looked for two types of players:
- Those who came from another team, played for TP for at least a season (or parts of 2+ seasons), and then moved on to a third team. These players, who I'll call "Rentals," allow us to compare a hitter's statistics both pre-TP and post-TP to see if they really played worse while under his tutelage. I left old players (34+ when coming to Atlanta) out of this data set because I did not want aging to skew the data. That left 6 players: Gary Sheffield, Mark Teixeira, J.D. Drew, Edgar Renteria, Robert Fick, and Johnny Estrada.
- Those who came up with the Braves, had TP as a hitting coach for at least three seasons, and then played at least a full season with another team (this rules out KJ and Frenchy until we have a better data set for them). These players, labeled as "Homegrown," can help us get a better sense of what impact TP has had on younger players. I found 5 more players who fit this model: Andruw Jones, Marcus Giles, Rafael Furcal, Mark DeRosa, and Adam LaRoche*.
* For ease of comparison, I did not include any part of LaRoche's 2009 season. He has such an extreme first-half/second-half split that this would make TP look better than he probably deserves to look. Also, I realized too late that Javy Lopez should probably have been in this data set. Looking at his #s, he did a bit better under TP than he did after leaving.
For the Rentals, I limited the study to the last 3 seasons (counting partial seasons) before coming to the Braves and the first 3 seasons after leaving the Braves. For instance, only Gary Sheffield's 1999-2006 seasons are used in the study. For the Homegrown players, I used only the players' last 3 seasons with TP and their first 3 after TP.
Batting Average
Alright, on to the charts and graphs. Here is a graph that shows the Rentals' batting averages before, during, and after their Braves tenure:
The blue bars indicate the players' AVG under Pendleton. Notice a trend? I do, too. All 6 of these players had a higher batting average under TP than they did in the seasons before or after coming to the Braves. Let's not draw any conclusions, though. How about in the "Homegrown" group?
Here, the results are more mixed. Jones and Giles experienced huge dropoffs upon leaving Pendleton, while LaRoche's average went down a tad. Furcal's average increased slightly, and DeRosa's went up quite a bit. Overall in both groups, only DeRosa saw a noteworthy increase in batting average after leaving Pendleton. On the other hand, 6 of the 11 players saw a precipitous drop in their AVG in their post-TP years.
On-Base Percentage
Beginning with the Rentals:
Again, all 6 players saw their OBP drop after leaving Pendleton. Four of the six also had a higher on-base with TP than they had in the years before coming to TP. Here's the same graph for the Homegrown players:
Three of these players did increase their OBPs after leaving Pendleton, though LaRoche's increase is very slight. This is offset, though, by the huge dropoffs experienced by Jones and Giles.
While 3 of the players increased their OBPs after leaving the Braves, 7 of the players lost a large amount of OBP. Overall, the size of these changes is very consistent with the batting average graphs; there is no evidence that TP affected these players' walk rates much in either direction.
Slugging Percentage
Let's start with the Rentals:
This tells more or less the same story as the other graphs. Though Tex's SLG numbers went up a bit and Estrada's only went down 1 point, the other 4 players experienced a dropoff of at least 40 points. What about the Homegrown players?
Again, DeRosa is an outlier. The other 4 players all experienced a loss of SLG after leaving TP. Overall, only 2 of the 11 players increased their slugging after leaving the Braves. The other 9 all decreased, and 6 of them lost at least 40 points of SLG.
Swing Percentage
The last category I'll examine is Swing Percentage, which is simply a measure of the percentage of all pitches that a player swings at. I include this statistic because one of the more frequent criticisms of TP is that he preaches an overly aggressive approach. If that is the case, we would expect to see players swing at a larger percentage of pitches while with TP than before or after. Here's the graph for the Rentals (there is insufficient data for Sheffield and Estrada before coming to TP):
Of the 4 players for whom we have data before they came to the Braves, all 4 swung at fewer pitches while under Pendelton's sway. Teixeira and Drew maintained this added patience even after leaving Atlanta. Of the four other players, three swung at more pitches after leaving the Braves. Only Robert Fick had increased patience in his post-TP years, though as we saw above, it did not pay off for him at all.
(By the way, Johnny Estrada really skews that graph, doesn't he? Does any current player swing that often?)
Now, here's the same graph for the Homegrown players:
This is the only graph so far that could be interpreted as an indictment of Pendleton. Four of the five homegrown players became much more patient after leaving the Braves (Furcal was about the same). Of course, this added patience had decidedly mixed results, as the earlier graphs show.
Of the 11 total players, 5 became more patient after leaving Atlanta, 3 became less patient, and 3 were about the same. That's hardly damning, but just in case you are thinking of using this as ammunition against TP, consider that he is not the first hitting instructor that these players have had. If the Braves organization instilled in them a tendency to swing more, that would have started years before Pendleton got his hands on any of these players. Insofar as a high swing rate is detrimental, you should blame the entire Braves organization rather than just TP.
Conclusions
Okay. Now that we've looked at each player individually, let's sum up by looking at the averages. Let's start with the difference between the players' stats before and during their times with the Braves:
| Era | AVG | OBP | SLG | Swing% |
| Pre-TP | .280 | .356 | .475 | 43.8% |
| With TP | .298 | .383 | .493 | 42.3% |
| TP's Effects | .018 | .027 | .018 | -1.5% |
With Pendleton, hitters increased their batting average by 18 points on average. As a result, they reached base more often and had higher slugging percentages (their walk rates and isolated power were about the same). They also swung at 1.5% fewer pitches.
Now let's compare the players' stats from their tenures with TP and their years after leaving Atlanta:
| Era | AVG | OBP | SLG | Swing% |
| With TP | .286 | .363 | .473 | 45.7% |
| Post-TP | .266 | .342 | .428 | 45.4% |
| TP's Effects | .020 | .021 | .045 | 0.3% |
After leaving TP, players lost an average of 20 points off their batting average and on-base percentage. Their slugging went down even more. On the average, there was no difference in the players' swing rates with TP and after TP.
Based on this data, I can only draw one conclusion about Pendleton's effects on hitters: most players hit for a higher average (around 18-20 points higher) with TP than they do either before or after being with him. Beyond that, there is no real evidence one way or the other.
Of course, those higher batting averages do not mean that TP is a good hitting coach, either. They can be explained by lots of other factors, such as comfort with Atlanta and Bobby Cox, lineup effects, potential steroid use, and luck (though I looked at BABIP too and did not see any clear trends). Also, this study does not have a huge data set, so sample size issues are in play as well.
The real point of this exercise is that if you look at all the data (rather than just cherrypicking a few fluky examples to support your case), there is no evidence that Terry Pendleton has been a bad hitting coach for the Braves. He may not have been a particularly good one, either--there are certainly lots of other ways you could look at his performance, and some may show his flaws more clearly.
Another possibility is that TP was a good hitting coach for a while, but that he has lost his way with this particular group of players. That could certainly be the case, but there is no way that anyone could know that without being in the clubhouse.
Regardless, if the Braves' poor hitting keeps up, we will probably see Pendleton be fired or reassigned to another position in the organization. Such a change may even be advantageous; change for its own sake often results in a short-term boost to a team's prospects, even if there is no qualitative difference. I just hope that if that happens, we can all suppress our instincts and say "good job, TP", rather than "good riddance."
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Good Info
Most of which I expected. My guess is that there are probably 15-20 teams out there that are hoping Terry gets fired because he won’t be out of work for long.
TP
Is becoming the scapegoat here, I really hope he doesnt get fired but sumone needs to fire up these Braves bats!
Watchin' Bobby Cox Turn Falcon Red Since 1991...
(A True ATLien)
by Dirtybyrdatl4life on Apr 27, 2010 2:12 PM EDT reply actions
TP isn't the bane of the Braves' existence?
BUT THE INTERNETS AND TALK RADIO TOLD ME SO!
Off-topic: There is currently a man roaming around this building with a giant wooden sledgehammer. I am not sure what to make of it. Please advise.
by DogDaysofSummer on Apr 27, 2010 2:25 PM EDT reply actions
Apparently some old, deactivated wall plug boxthing needed to come out and it was rusted in place.
He just golf clubbed it out. Awesome.
by DogDaysofSummer on Apr 27, 2010 2:41 PM EDT up reply actions
But who has a wooden sledgehammer in this day and age I mean seriously
by DogDaysofSummer on Apr 27, 2010 2:41 PM EDT up reply actions
LOL
“Who throws a shoe? Really?”
Another uninnocent, elegant fall into the unmagnificent lives of adults...
by Smoltz's Beard on Apr 27, 2010 3:29 PM EDT up reply actions
That Iraqi reporter
"Yeah, and I have an enchanted jock strap." -- Karl Karlson
by Jacob Peterson on Apr 27, 2010 3:32 PM EDT up reply actions
He was quoting Austin Powers
Can’t you get pop references from a decade ago? GOSH
by DogDaysofSummer on Apr 27, 2010 3:33 PM EDT up reply actions
Oh, I got the reference
I was just making a serious response anyway.
Tina, come get some ham!
"Yeah, and I have an enchanted jock strap." -- Karl Karlson
by Jacob Peterson on Apr 27, 2010 3:34 PM EDT up reply actions
Ask him if he’s selling LongHammer IPA.
STILL stopping every few minutes to realize "Whoa. The Saints won the Super Bowl."
by AllSaintsDay on Apr 27, 2010 6:01 PM EDT up reply actions
Never ceases to amaze me how volunteers on a free blogging site
can put together fantastic articles like this one with lots of research, while most of the paid columnists and beat-writers cater to the lowest common denominator with talk of trading the farm for Adrian Gonzalez or firing TP. Great work, pacgnosis.
by KoKo the Monkey (T-Bone) on Apr 27, 2010 2:26 PM EDT reply actions 6 recs
Kudos
On this comment, and certainly the article / study.
I am guessing your real name is not Mark Bradley.
+1
Another uninnocent, elegant fall into the unmagnificent lives of adults...
by Smoltz's Beard on Apr 27, 2010 3:32 PM EDT up reply actions
Rec'd it!
Excellent write-up. Far better than anything the “professional” pull outta their asses.
I’m not ready to blame TP either, but I wish they could start scoring some runs and end this losing streak before they fall into too big of a hole. Bobby needs to go out on top, if he does retire!
"As soon as Tony (Dungy) said we had no chance, I knew we had 'em right where we wanted 'em"--Coach Sean Payton right after Super Bowl XLIV with the Lombardi Trophy firmly in hand. WHO DAT!!
by David "Satch" Kelly on Apr 27, 2010 4:24 PM EDT up reply actions
most people who read the AJC dont want to hear anything like this
unfortunately.
"If I have asthma, they won't let me scuba. And if I can’t scuba, then what’s this all been about?? What am I working toward??"
"You look like you should be married to one of the San Diego Padres."
pacgnosis is now my hero.
GREAT work. I wonder how much time do you devote to this amount of research? It’s impressive.
tUMD Hockey: In search of a title! But probably not this year.
I don't think he puts all that much time into it actually...
That’s not an insult. He just seems to be amazingly fast at looking up stuff on baseball-reference.com. It’s an impressive skill to have.
Also: he wasn’t your hero before? :-p
"Never doubt Derek Lowe's ability to win despite himself."
by EricGreggWasPaidOff on Apr 28, 2010 12:49 AM EDT up reply actions
one thing i thought you may be able to shed some light on is Andruws resurgence, I posited this offseason and to a lesser extent last offseason that Andruw had not actually suffered as big of a drop off as it had seemed because of the severely low BABiP.
i think this is why you see the severe drop when Andruw left in all his nbrs (which coincidently would make TP even better). His xBABIP is lower but it isn’t anywhere near where his BABIP was. The past three years Andruw’s BABIP was around 230ish with his career avg at 270. Just adding these pts to his slash stats and they begin to look slightly better than the abysmal crash that was indicated.
I know a lot of people like to attribute his resurgence (in a small sample) to his weight loss and I won’t deny that is a contributing factor, but isn’t there more evidence that Andruw just went through a extended period where he was really unlucky. his FL % was a little high, but his LD% was still near his career avg so I’m not seeing any indications that would lead me to believe his BABIP should be that low.
I could have completely misconfused (ya it’s a new word) the concepts underlying BABIP, and this is only tangentially related to this post, but i wanted to get your feedback on this idea.
Heyward,Hanson,and Shaffer r ready now!! Why do you think they havent signed the "right handed bat"?
by fatazfoot on Jan 7, 2009 8:59 PM EST
That's a good point re: Andruw
I did look at BABIP, and there’s no doubt that his low BABIPs influenced his other low #s. 2 points: 1) His numbers got significantly worse even when controlling for BABIP, and 2) his poor conditioning may have lowered his ability to hit the ball as hard as he was used to, thus explaining his low BABIP with reasons other than luck.
"Yeah, and I have an enchanted jock strap." -- Karl Karlson
by Jacob Peterson on Apr 27, 2010 3:21 PM EDT up reply actions
Great Work
I’m highly appreciative of cold-hard statistics, and the analysis the can be made using them. Good job Pacgnosis.
Great Post
love it and as usual solid data to back it up
by The Devil Wears Prado on Apr 27, 2010 2:45 PM EDT reply actions
Makes me rethink what I've been thinking
I ‘ve only thought he didn’t help some players,but then I don’t think he has that much of an effect on the team anyway, read into that whatever you want. Most players learn hitting in high school and the minors. What effect a hitting coach has at the major league level I’m not too sure is career changing at all. He can’t nursemaid every player all the time, ala Frenchy. Unfortunately some players need someone there all the time to help them and TP or any other coach can’t do that. Good stats, I never even would have been able to look this up. One consideration is Andruw probably shouldn’t be on this list as he didn’t listen to anyone. I’m also not fond of the Frenchy argument either as I don’t think he was capable of retaining what he learned for very long, I never thought Frenchy was stubborn, just dumb. If he had any sense he would take a couple of 100 grand of that 5 mil the Mets are paying him and hire his own coach out of some good college program.LOL
Senator, we have another old saying,"Don't piss down my back and tell me it's raining." Fletcher
Still not convinced either way
Sheffield was an aging slugger, drew had a career year, renteria had struggled in the Boston pressure cooker, Giles fell off the cliff after he stopped juicing, Estrada was really just a one year wonder, andruw had become lazy
Furcal was entering his prime years and Tex stayed consistent with his slight increases mostly due to entering his prime seasons
Laroche is really the only strange case, but maybe it is just a comfort level issue.
For me this is still debatable
Fair enough
Lacking park effects and isolated discipline, it may be tough to draw a conclusion either way.
I think the point is that this information is more credible than the anecdotes about KJ, Frenchy, and Andruw.
aren't there park adjusted stats that can be used?
God typed "iddqd" before creating Jason Heyward.
Yes
I looked at the park adjusted stats too. They told almost exactly the same story. Should have mentioned that in the article
"Yeah, and I have an enchanted jock strap." -- Karl Karlson
by Jacob Peterson on Apr 27, 2010 4:42 PM EDT up reply actions
Sure, that's the point.
You can’t really say one way or the other. You can always make arguments about why players were better or worse in one place, but based on the actual data, you can’t say that TP has had a negative impact on most players.
"Yeah, and I have an enchanted jock strap." -- Karl Karlson
by Jacob Peterson on Apr 27, 2010 3:22 PM EDT up reply actions
Very true, but I guess what I’m looking for is evidence that he has even marginally had an effect. But he hasn’t and something needs to be done if only for a wakeup call to the players. Sometimes a jolt like that gets a team going
I don't disagree at all.
It’d just be a shame for TP to be the scapegoat.
"Yeah, and I have an enchanted jock strap." -- Karl Karlson
by Jacob Peterson on Apr 27, 2010 3:32 PM EDT up reply actions
who wants to cloud this argument with facts?
change for the sake of change makes no sense. what happens if it has the opposite effect and the team just collapses? then who do you blame? bobby? mcdowell? its pretty clear those who are making TP the scapegoat really could care less what the facts/stats say and just want him gone. hes not the best, hes not the worst and he cant swing the bats for the guys or make them come through with RISP
It's like Hank, the rightfielder, is passing the ball on to the next rightfielder, and saying, 'Here it is, kid. Catch it.'"
Fantastic piece
rec’d
"You guys. You lollygag the ball around the infield. You lollygag your way down to first. You lollygag in and out of the dugout. You know what that makes you? Larry!"
"Lollygaggers!"
"Lollygaggers"
Okay.
This is some good statistical data, and the argument you make is understandable.
However, there are other things to be taken into account. Age, PED use (Giles, although not ever proven, is regularly linked to PED use), and players simply losing it.
You can’t simply throw players who have not played a full season for another team away and not include them. A hitting coach usually does not affect a team too much, unless he sees a blatant flaw in a hitter’s swing or something of that sort. The problem is that when he hurts players you need to make a change. Kelly Johnson had all of the talent in the world, and although some of the fault definitely goes to Bobby for not playing him vs. lefties, TP preaching aggressiveness in order to limit Kelly’s strikeouts point to a flaw in his hitting philosophy. Not only did it not work for Kelly, it ended up destroying his value and we lost him for absolutely nothing.
A team that was once in position to make a trade or move a player due to having great depth at a premium position of second base was forced to release one, and probably the better one, at least partially because of TP. This cannot go ignored, and neither can the fact that the team has not hit for the past two years.
Someone is doing something wrong, whether it be Bobby, TP, Wren, or some other front office worker/coach. With the lack of performance coming from the lineup as of late, and the fact that players rarely have reached their potential under TP and somewhat ruined their careers (Andruw and Francoeur), shows that TP is not a capable hitting coach for this team, in my opinion.
The point you make re: PEDs is a good one (and one I mentioned in the post). Giles and Sheffield are known or presumed steroid guys, so their dropoffs are explainable that way. Perhaps some of the others are too, but it’s hard to say at this point.
Your point about Kelly may or may not be valid— you have no way of knowing what TP was doing with him, and how effective that was or wasn’t. In the end, the only conclusion we can draw is that KJ had a bad year and the Braves (rightly, in my view) moved on.
To say that TP “ruined” Andruw or Frenchy’s career is completely ludicrous. Andruw had his best years under TP—it was stubbornness and lack of conditioning that did him in (at least for a while—we’ll see if he is back). Frenchy’s culprit was a lack of plate discipline. I’m sure that TP tried to teach him to be more patient, but it just didn’t take for whatever reason. I can’t blame TP for Frenchy any more than I’d blame Leo Mazzone for not getting enough out of John Rocker.
"Yeah, and I have an enchanted jock strap." -- Karl Karlson
by Jacob Peterson on Apr 27, 2010 3:28 PM EDT up reply actions
I kinda thought Leo Mazzone got quite a bit out of John Rocker. He just failed to teach him the value of keeping his mouth shut.
"Never doubt Derek Lowe's ability to win despite himself."
by EricGreggWasPaidOff on Apr 28, 2010 12:53 AM EDT up reply actions
You misunderstood me.
What I had said was that they somewhat ruined their careers while under TP. That may or may not be his fault, and it probably isn’t, but the fact that they both saw their production plummet while under his tutelage has to be taken into account.
I am sure there are things TP is very good at, and I am sure there are things that he needs work on. I for one, do not like his philosophy of aggressiveness and I think a hands-off approach for certain players would lead to more success, while a hands-on approach for others would work better.
Here’s a snippet from Scott White, a national fantasy baseball writer for CBS. He pretty much nailed the KJ fiasco on the head.
“They grew impatient with Johnson. Wanting to see consistent rather than sporadic power from him, they discouraged the patient approach that made him so enticing in the first place. It messed with his mind, warped his God-given instincts and made him a flailing mess of a hitter.”
Again, doing that alone in my opinion, should be grounds for removal from your position, unless there is an opposing case which states how great he helped a hitter. Losing a talent like Kelly because his mind was completely messed up is not okay, at all.
Disagree...
if we actually had a viable leadoff option in LF or CF, Kelly could have stayed in the place where he was always pretty productive (hitting 5th -8th) instead of where he never was productive (1st or 2nd). IMO, the biggest problem of KJ’s wasn’t TP, it was BC/FW/JS and their inability to find anyone else to leadoff besides a man who clearly wasn’t cut out for the job.
by Mr. Sanchez on Apr 28, 2010 12:06 PM EDT up reply actions
Well
His stats while leading off tend to disagree. He has a .347 OBP with a .468 SLG while leading off, with 24 home runs in 711 plate appearances. One of the big reasons for his lack of production was that he didn’t get to play vs. lefties, whom he hits better than righties He’s a solid leadoff man, and while he does have some better stats in other positions, they are in much smaller sample sizes.
An organizational flaw that transcends any one member
I am more concerned about this statement. The whole system seems to lack offense right now.
Rome has not scored more than three runs in a game since April 12th.
We have more guys looking to make strikeout history than hitting history.
The best performers at AA and AAA seem to have come from other systems.
You have a point here, at least so far as I can tell.
I don’t think anyone would argue that our hitting prospects are not particularly good outside of Freeman.
"Yeah, and I have an enchanted jock strap." -- Karl Karlson
by Jacob Peterson on Apr 27, 2010 3:30 PM EDT up reply actions
Ugh
I knew this post was coming and it’s just a waste of time. Really, the effect of the hitting coach is marginal. I think the decline in many of those players you mentioned above: Sheff, Giles, etc are due to weening off of steroids rather than the loss of TP’s tutelage.
There are so many correlating factors that go into performance that trying to use a few statistics as some kind of anecdotal evidence is pretty fruitless.
Wow
Did you read the post? The whole point is that the effect of the hitting coach is marginal. I’m trying to prove that TP isn’t a bad coach, not that he is a good one.
"Yeah, and I have an enchanted jock strap." -- Karl Karlson
by Jacob Peterson on Apr 27, 2010 3:31 PM EDT up reply actions
Then you’re contradicting yourself. You can’t prove that he isn’t. You can’t prove anything with those statistics.
The only real value a hitting coach has is in the psychiatry department or to fix an obvious flaw in a swing. He may have geled better with former players than this current crop, some players may trust him, some may not, some may trust him too much and abandon their instincts. So many unquantifiable things. So, like I said, it’s worthless to try and prove that he isn’t a bad hitting coach. Unless, you can find a talking parrot to sit in the dugout with this current crop of players and show a significant difference one way or another in performance, even then it wouldn’t have much statistical confidence.
Green 5 headed lobster horse monster
There is no evidence that it doesn’t exist. I understand what you’re trying to say, I just think you’re trying to argue a fan demographic that has already been convinced.
People want him gone because the team hasn’t performed well offensively the last few years, and sadly coaches pay for that ineptitude with thier jobs. Just because there isn’t any evidence that he sucks, won’t change their minds.
There is a HUGE difference between “no measurable difference” and “unquantifiable”. The impact of a hitting coach is NOT unquantifiable at all. It is very quantifiable. That quantity is just very close to zero.
It’s like the difference between having $0 and having $0.25. Just because there’s not much difference doesn’t mean you can’t measure it. I measured it, and it was basically 0.
"Yeah, and I have an enchanted jock strap." -- Karl Karlson
by Jacob Peterson on Apr 27, 2010 4:46 PM EDT up reply actions
But they’re large values of 0…
"Never doubt Derek Lowe's ability to win despite himself."
by EricGreggWasPaidOff on Apr 28, 2010 12:56 AM EDT up reply actions
Pac, I do appreciate your efforts. I just think you wasted your time. I never said there wasn’t a difference between “no measurable difference” and “unquantifiable”, just that many aspects of the actual effect a hitting coach can have are unquantifiable.
You fudged your data. Robert Fick played only one season in Atlanta, 2003. But he’s put on your rentals board that you claim a player would need parts of 2 seasons to be eligible for. That small mistake aside, I don’t see this convincing anyone in the Fire TP camp to switch sides.
You also misinterpreted my argument. There are unquantifiable aspects to the actual effects of a hitting coach, you cannot argue with that.
Rec'd.
Great stuff as usual.
Another uninnocent, elegant fall into the unmagnificent lives of adults...
if you think that
then you really missed the boat
Sure thing pal. I’d love to see your counter-argument…I could use a good laugh.
Another uninnocent, elegant fall into the unmagnificent lives of adults...
by Smoltz's Beard on Apr 28, 2010 8:32 AM EDT up reply actions
I say Fire his ass cause he has a shifty look about him and all his facial expressions say I'm a Prick
as good a reason as any.
Senator, we have another old saying,"Don't piss down my back and tell me it's raining." Fletcher
Weird.
I always thought he looked like a nice guy.
"If I have asthma, they won't let me scuba. And if I can’t scuba, then what’s this all been about?? What am I working toward??"
"You look like you should be married to one of the San Diego Padres."
I'm pretty sure he is.
He’s always been friendly, at least. And he’s never been the type to get bad publicity, either in his playing or coaching days. Sometimes, no news is good news.
"Never doubt Derek Lowe's ability to win despite himself."
by EricGreggWasPaidOff on Apr 28, 2010 12:57 AM EDT up reply actions
FIRE TP
Why? Because the current regime has gotten this team nowhere in 5 years.
I’m sick of all the evidence back and forth of whether he’s been that bad or not, the point is, WE CAN’T DO ANY WORSE WITHOUT HIM. Might as well get some new blood in the dugout and start over.
2011 should equal. NO BOBBY OR TP.
60% of the time, it works every time
you should be ashamed for using logic of this sort
WE CAN’T DO ANY WORSE WITHOUT HIM
we can do worse, we could do much worse. If i was the hitting coach I would have no clue what the hell to do. and TP may very well be helping a lot of guys, there’s no evidence to suggest either way
Heyward,Hanson,and Shaffer r ready now!! Why do you think they havent signed the "right handed bat"?
by fatazfoot on Jan 7, 2009 8:59 PM EST
but what has he done to deserve to stay?
This is what frustrates be about the Braves of the 2000s. Players and coaches do nothing to deserve their spots, yet retain them anyway.
This team’s formula isn’t working, so why not start over. And by “can’t do any worse” I mean, whats the worse that could happen? The new staff doesn’t get the team to the playoffs right away? Hasn’t happened in 5 years anyway, sooo….
60% of the time, it works every time
Different arguments
Changing the Hitting coach because he is bad is different than arguing we just need to mix it up.
You are arguing change for the sake of change which works some times, but it is not a calculated approach to improving the team. It is a random approach which should be just as likely to make the team worse.
You are spoiled.
Sure, we haven’t made the playoffs since 2005. But we’ve had 2 pretty good teams in that stretch that just didn’t quite make it. Have you forgotten last year so quickly? It’s really tough to make the playoffs in MLB. If this were the NBA, the Braves would’ve made the playoffs 2 of the past 3 years and we’re not having this discussion.
Also, you need to give this team more time. How do you know it’s going “nowhere”? It’s still April, for chrissakes.
My point is that if this team is not hitting, we (as fans) have no evidence that TP is at fault. Perhaps he is, and if so, he will be canned I’m sure. More likely, we just have some guys in slumps, they’ll come out of it, and we’ll be fine. There is no way you can say “we can’t do any worse” because you have no idea what he is even doing. Unless you’re Bobby Cox in disguise?
"Yeah, and I have an enchanted jock strap." -- Karl Karlson
by Jacob Peterson on Apr 27, 2010 4:53 PM EDT up reply actions
I was just being sarcastic and I thought funny, whoops
Senator, we have another old saying,"Don't piss down my back and tell me it's raining." Fletcher
*claps hands
Great work Jacob
"(Jason Heyward) is like the Grim Reaper -- you know he's going to get you, you just don't know where or when."
golf clap
the only thing worse than a terrible analysis like this, is the people that buy into it.
The only thing worse than a douche...
is a douche on the internet.
Snarky Golf Clap here
by DogDaysofSummer on Apr 27, 2010 7:24 PM EDT up reply actions
Amen. Jacob (pacgnosis) spent a ton of time on this and did great work. I don’t know why someone has to come in here and be an asshole about it. This is a free website; if you don’t like a post just move on.
"(Jason Heyward) is like the Grim Reaper -- you know he's going to get you, you just don't know where or when."
by Scott Coleman on Apr 27, 2010 7:35 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I don't have a problem with disagreement....
but don’t be too much of a dick about it is all.
by DogDaysofSummer on Apr 27, 2010 7:36 PM EDT up reply actions
It's funny
Almost every reader on this blog liked or loved the post. You’re one of the very few who didn’t. So it kind of sounds like a personal problem to me.
I’ll tell you what; Go write a fanpost that the readers on this blog will grade (do a poll with answers of “A” “B” “C” etc.) Seeing that almost everyone on here liked the post I’m guessing it’s “A” level work. Go write your own fanpost and if a majority of the votes are “A” I’ll have Gondeee promote it to the front page. If the majority of the votes aren’t “A’s”, well, you’re gonna look pretty silly.
"(Jason Heyward) is like the Grim Reaper -- you know he's going to get you, you just don't know where or when."
by Scott Coleman on Apr 27, 2010 7:32 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
And in that fanpost, prove why Pacgnosis is wrong.
Good luck pal.
"(Jason Heyward) is like the Grim Reaper -- you know he's going to get you, you just don't know where or when."
by Scott Coleman on Apr 27, 2010 7:33 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I think the biggest thing that is being overlooked here is not just the work of TP himself, but the dynamic he has with players on the team. To me, it sounds like TP is preaching a pretty good approach at the plate, it’s just a matter of getting players that will listen to him. I read an acrticle the other day-can’t remember where-that said a certain braves player was keeping his back leg stiff and ridged while taking his cuts. TP suggested he change his approach, and when asked specifically about the situation, the player in question simply said “I feel good with what I’m doing now,” or something to that effect. We seem to have players that feel they know how to hit, and don’t need to listen to TP’s advice. Is this a problem with TP and his inability to get players to listen to him? Or is it a matter of having certain players on the team that should be shown the door because they refuse to listen? I think all this is a larger byproduct of Bobby’s style of managing: no one is held accountable, struggling players are rarely benched due to Bobby’s loyalty, and the team’s philosophy in general seems to be something along the lines of “eh, we just had a bad today, we’ll get em tomorrow.” There seems to be ABSOLUTELY NO SENSE OF URGENCY on this team, ever. No matter how bad it gets, and I blame bobby for that. If this team continues to struggle this mightily in late May, I think the whole roster should be blown up, inconsistent players and coaches alike.
Much easier, all-mighty Megatron, then attacking the real threat...The Autobots moonbase!!
Wow I've thought some of this too
But didn’t want to say anything as everyone gets pissed if you say something bad about Bobby.
Senator, we have another old saying,"Don't piss down my back and tell me it's raining." Fletcher
. If this team continues to struggle this mightily in late May, I think the whole roster should be blown up, inconsistent players and coaches alike.
Who exactly should we blow up? Are we magically gonna find teams to take on DLowe’s contract? Are we gonna trade Chipper and have another PR disaster? Trade our young studs like BMac, Heyward, Esco, Hanson and Jurrjens? Fire Bobby after he already said he was retiring?
"(Jason Heyward) is like the Grim Reaper -- you know he's going to get you, you just don't know where or when."
by Scott Coleman on Apr 27, 2010 4:12 PM EDT up reply actions
Not bobby. Personally id like to see him gone, but I’m not nieve enough to think that would happen in his last season. I’m saying we should rebuild. Its just not working with this core of players. Id say trade chipper and screw the backlash, but he may retiire after this season anyway. Trade escobar. I think he’s a likely trade chip anyway with his inexcusable mental blunders. And it seems bobby is tiring of his act, and may want him gone to begin with. Mclouth is useless. Get rid of him for a bag of balls. I’m still up in the air on glaus, but if I had to guess, he’s our best candidate to be outright released. And as much as I hate to say it, jurrjens may need to be packaged for some young talent. I don’t care what happens with lowe, I just want him gone. I know its not plausable however. I’m not a gm, pick this apart if you must. My point is this team as constructed-players, manager, and coaches-are simply not getting the job done, and its been that way for years.
Much easier, all-mighty Megatron, then attacking the real threat...The Autobots moonbase!!
by Brave Neander on Apr 27, 2010 4:27 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Just curious…if the team ends up making the playoffs, do you still think all of the above should still take place?
Great sig/avatar, btw.
Another uninnocent, elegant fall into the unmagnificent lives of adults...
by Smoltz's Beard on Apr 27, 2010 4:32 PM EDT up reply actions
Nope. Not at all. I’m not trying to be negative, just realistic. By all acounts this team should have what it takes to be a WS contender, and they still might, which is what makes these deep struggles so dumbfounding. Id love be proven wrong. I love the braves and want them to succeed as much as anyone. I’m just tired of watching this team struggle so badly on such a consistent basis over the last few years. I honestly think our biggest problem is bobby. That being said, ill gladly eat my words if this team makes the playoffs
Much easier, all-mighty Megatron, then attacking the real threat...The Autobots moonbase!!
by Brave Neander on Apr 27, 2010 4:38 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Fair enough.
Another uninnocent, elegant fall into the unmagnificent lives of adults...
by Smoltz's Beard on Apr 27, 2010 4:39 PM EDT up reply actions
Oh, thanks, btw. I love me sum transformers
Much easier, all-mighty Megatron, then attacking the real threat...The Autobots moonbase!!
by Brave Neander on Apr 27, 2010 4:39 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I like
with commenters calling for TP to be axed and offering up scant anecdotal evidence as “proof” of his inadequacies.
I like the proof in quotations, the most. So subtle, yet so effective.
No wonder nobody likes you, Tuttle... everything's a (Pujols) damn debate.
ha, I’d move to Mexico or Canada or….well, anywhere if that crazy, annoying bitch became president.
"(Jason Heyward) is like the Grim Reaper -- you know he's going to get you, you just don't know where or when."
by Scott Coleman on Apr 27, 2010 4:42 PM EDT up reply actions
Hahaha THIS
Jason Heyward is so good, he makes David Wright piss in Ryan Howard’s pants
by heap16 on Apr 27, 2010 6:43 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
BONDS/VICK 2012
For America.
"Hey Honey, could you fist the salt over here?"
by GeneParmesan on Apr 27, 2010 6:21 PM EDT up reply actions
Running on a platform of legalized “performance enhancers” and dog fights?
"Never doubt Derek Lowe's ability to win despite himself."
by EricGreggWasPaidOff on Apr 28, 2010 1:04 AM EDT up reply actions
no a platform of performance enhanced dog fights
Heyward,Hanson,and Shaffer r ready now!! Why do you think they havent signed the "right handed bat"?
by fatazfoot on Jan 7, 2009 8:59 PM EST
+1
Another uninnocent, elegant fall into the unmagnificent lives of adults...
by Smoltz's Beard on Apr 28, 2010 10:48 AM EDT up reply actions
As a devoted APBT owner,
let me assure you, those dogs don’t need performance enhancers. Well, maybe the dogs used as tune-ups for the champions do.
tUMD Hockey: In search of a title! But probably not this year.
Ron Artest for Sec. of State
That’s a winning trio.
"Baseball is the only major sport that appears backwards in a mirror." ~George Carlin
by FineHamAbounds on Apr 28, 2010 8:43 PM EDT up reply actions
Off-Topic
But how many of you here were saying earlier this season “I’m glad we’re not the Astros”? Couple weeks in the books and we’re staring to look like the Astros did early in the season.
Also has anyone noticed that since he started playing professional ball that Heyward has yet to play on a winning team that he started the season with?
THE MAN IS A POISON IN THE LOCKER ROOM
by DogDaysofSummer on Apr 27, 2010 4:42 PM EDT up reply actions
Making everyone else feel inadequate cause they can't damage cars in the parking lot.
Heyward’s probably trying to sell his teammates those ugly t-shirts that were on here….
God typed "iddqd" before creating Jason Heyward.
I'll talk to you about this topic after the Stros and Pirates series...
God typed "iddqd" before creating Jason Heyward.
Say what you want
But I’d take our lineup right now over the ‘Stros at the start of the season (pre-Berkman) in a heartbeat, even as bad as they’re hitting. There’s just infinitely more talent.
"Yeah, and I have an enchanted jock strap." -- Karl Karlson
by Jacob Peterson on Apr 27, 2010 4:48 PM EDT up reply actions
I guess we need a new scapegoat.
Who is our Special Assistant to the Vice President of Operations?
"Baseball is the only major sport that appears backwards in a mirror." ~George Carlin
How bout the Assistant to the Traveling Secretary?
Another uninnocent, elegant fall into the unmagnificent lives of adults...
by Smoltz's Beard on Apr 27, 2010 4:50 PM EDT up reply actions
Somebody’s gotta take the fall. Might as well be CoCo.
"It looks like The Hound of the Baskervilles out there." - Steve Stone
"...I'm reminded of Wuthering Heights." - Harry Caray
~
"i’m going to keep stats on you for as long as it humors me….target is unclear" - BMacAttack (Hohn's queef)
by Chief Noc-A-Homa on Apr 27, 2010 4:51 PM EDT up reply actions
When in doubt
86 the strength and conditioning coach. He should’ve been having all our boys working out nonstop beyond failure point until their muscles looked like a Marvel Masterpiece trading card super hero. Then the homers would come.
No wonder nobody likes you, Tuttle... everything's a (Pujols) damn debate.
I blame Javier Vazquez.
After all, since he was traded, we haven’t hit much. He must have cursed us on his way out.
THINK ABOUT IT.
"Yeah, and I have an enchanted jock strap." -- Karl Karlson
by Jacob Peterson on Apr 27, 2010 4:55 PM EDT up reply actions
In 100 years...
We’ll all be languishing over the continued championship drought due to the Vazquez Curse.
"Never doubt Derek Lowe's ability to win despite himself."
by EricGreggWasPaidOff on Apr 28, 2010 1:07 AM EDT up reply actions
Too high up.
How about the key grip or gaffer?
tUMD Hockey: In search of a title! But probably not this year.
by analogy i assume u mean we should fire the batboy…and i agree he’s been lazy as a hell as of late
Heyward,Hanson,and Shaffer r ready now!! Why do you think they havent signed the "right handed bat"?
by fatazfoot on Jan 7, 2009 8:59 PM EST
No analogy…..I fully blame Avatar for this mess.
tUMD Hockey: In search of a title! But probably not this year.
Quick question:
Okay in the movie I Love You, Man, who’s the funny guy who has the high pitched voice and is the Galaxy soccer fan?
"(Jason Heyward) is like the Grim Reaper -- you know he's going to get you, you just don't know where or when."
You know there’s this thing called the internet where you can look stuff up. It’s fantastic.
Fuck it, I already looked it up for you: http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0516266/
Another uninnocent, elegant fall into the unmagnificent lives of adults...
by Smoltz's Beard on Apr 27, 2010 5:00 PM EDT up reply actions
you’re my hero.
ya I was trying to find him but i knew a sweetheart like you would find it for me.
"(Jason Heyward) is like the Grim Reaper -- you know he's going to get you, you just don't know where or when."
by Scott Coleman on Apr 27, 2010 5:02 PM EDT up reply actions
he was funny in role models too
The outtakes of RM were as good as the movie.
He bombed in Reno 911…the show died after he joined the cast.
"If I have asthma, they won't let me scuba. And if I can’t scuba, then what’s this all been about?? What am I working toward??"
"You look like you should be married to one of the San Diego Padres."
He was funny in Superbad too.
Here are Pujols's stats: 1.000/1.000/4.000/5.000. That's right. He is batting a thousand, with a thousand OBP (naturally), and every hit has been a home run, and thus his OPS is a perfect 5.000.
him and then the Chineese guy (Ken Jeong, right?) from Hangover always have the funniest little roles in movies.
"(Jason Heyward) is like the Grim Reaper -- you know he's going to get you, you just don't know where or when."
by Scott Coleman on Apr 27, 2010 5:04 PM EDT up reply actions
hes good in community
"If I have asthma, they won't let me scuba. And if I can’t scuba, then what’s this all been about?? What am I working toward??"
"You look like you should be married to one of the San Diego Padres."
I like him best in Pineapple Express.
Mr. Edwards: Clark’s a great guy, man. He’s totally gonna take care of Angie, man. He’s great; he’s a wonderful lab partner, so… It’s gonna be cool, he’ll keep one eye on her.
Dale Denton: Why don’t you go fuck yourself, you weird little prick?
Mr. Edwards: I’m a teacher, okay? You can’t talk to me like that, guy.
Dale Denton: I’m not a student, so I can say whatever the fuck I want, you chimp-fucking little bastard.
Another uninnocent, elegant fall into the unmagnificent lives of adults...
by Smoltz's Beard on Apr 27, 2010 5:13 PM EDT up reply actions
I’d like to see a few more statistics about these guys you’ve analyzed.
First of all, I’d like to see the number of pitches seen per plate appearance. In watching the past few games, I don’t doubt that the braves can hit or get on base. What I question is why they don’t take more pitches, foul off more balls, and make the other pitcher work harder. There have already been two complete games thrown against them this year and that is something that just should not happen. While swing percentage shows you a part of that picture, it just tells me that he doesn’t coach his players to chase pitches. What I do think is that they tend to put the ball in play much more when they should be fouling pitches off and waiting for a good one to out a real swing on.
The second statistic I’d like to see is some form of clutch hitting. This is a situation where you need to not strike out, not into double plays, etc. These are things the braves are terrible at. Some proof that TP actually coaches his guys to shorten up and prolong at-bats in these situations would work wonders.
Hey everyone go read the fanpost link "Maybe We Should Get Used To Our Losing Ways and Enjoy Life More", it's funny.
Senator, we have another old saying,"Don't piss down my back and tell me it's raining." Fletcher
Sorry
Sorry : But you are full of HOOEY !!!! TP MUST GO !!!
Hooey? What the Hell is Hooey?
Senator, we have another old saying,"Don't piss down my back and tell me it's raining." Fletcher
Leo was the pitching coach....
But this…
The sample is all pitchers who have pitched at least one year under Mazzone and one year under a different pitching coach. Bradbury found that Mazzone lowered the ERA of pitchers by an average of 0.64 points, and that after leaving Mazzone, pitchers’ ERA increased by an average of 0.78 points.
is still absurd. I miss old rocking leo.
by DogDaysofSummer on Apr 27, 2010 5:47 PM EDT up reply actions
is that actually from something?
"If I have asthma, they won't let me scuba. And if I can’t scuba, then what’s this all been about?? What am I working toward??"
"You look like you should be married to one of the San Diego Padres."
Yes he was the pitching coach.....
But our streak ended when he left
and we haven’t been to the post season since.
It’s an omen…
by dragonhawk26 on Apr 27, 2010 10:40 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
i know who leo is
im talking about the quote
"If I have asthma, they won't let me scuba. And if I can’t scuba, then what’s this all been about?? What am I working toward??"
"You look like you should be married to one of the San Diego Padres."
Check out that fanpost video where Gregg Zaun can’t throw the ball back to the pitcher like four straight times.
Here are Pujols's stats: 1.000/1.000/4.000/5.000. That's right. He is batting a thousand, with a thousand OBP (naturally), and every hit has been a home run, and thus his OPS is a perfect 5.000.
That was funny
Senator, we have another old saying,"Don't piss down my back and tell me it's raining." Fletcher
It's a FanShot here on TC
for those who haven’t seen it yet
Ol’ Bob is priceless in the box as well
"I may not agree with what you say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it." Beatrice Hall paraphrasing Voltaire. That being said, it is "Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt." Abraham Lincoln
by Vance in Sacramento on Apr 27, 2010 6:55 PM EDT up reply actions
Well. I'm off to the market to get some beer for tonight's game,didn't have any last night,sure would've helped
Senator, we have another old saying,"Don't piss down my back and tell me it's raining." Fletcher
Really outstanding work
I was hoping someone would look take a good, long look at this in the cold light of facts.
I have a question about veterans...
This is really a fascinating factual study of something that’s actually quite hard to quantify (that is, the influence of a coach on team performance). The question I have for perhaps some of the “scoutier” types is this: how much do hitting coaches really work with established stars? Obviously even players of the highest caliber go through rough stretches where a hitting coach might offer suggestions for adjustments or whatnot. But it doesn’t strike me that Terry Pendleton is really going to be making significant changes to someone like Gary Sheffield’s swing, who is already a bona fide star with a style all his own.
The first four of the “Rentals” examined here (Sheffield, Teixeira, Renteria, Drew) fall into this veteran category. It seems to me that the chief value of a hitting coach is the NON-stars: teaching those like rookies and mediocre vets, who have a lot to gain by improving hitting mechanics and technique.
I may be totally off-base with this suggestion, as I have no experience with how major-league coaching works, but it’s an interesting thing to consider nonetheless.
You can still make small adjustments even to established stars. I’m thinking of Mel Stottlemyre’s suggestion to Doc Gooden to change how much he was turning his torso during his windup when Gooden came to the Yankees. That paid off immediately for them. Similarly, the suggestions that Dave Duncan made to Smoltz last year seemed to iron on some of the kinks in his delivery.
Don Baylor caused Chipper to adjust his focus (toward more power) in ‘99 and he also changed Andres Galarraga’s whole stance and plate approach when they were with the Cardinals in ‘92, which revivied Cat’s seemingly stalled career.
Excellent job. I’m not sure that the hitting coach makes that much of a difference, unless he’s Charlie Lau, but TP doesn’t seem to have had a negative effect on the hitters. There do seem to be some guys (e.g. DeRosa, Francoeur) who have done very well since leaving Atlanta, which makes me wonder if the problem is the interaction between the organization and the player—a common problem in every business, not just baseball.
Sometimes you need to make a move to make a move
I’m more of a what have you done for me lately kind of guy and folks the last year and a half or more it’s been our offense or lack of that’s held us back…nothing else…i’m actually in favor of new new blood around the organization…why the heck not? The only guys i’d keep would be Frank Wren/Roger McDowell/Eddie Perez/Glen Hubbard/Jeff Porter and the Turner Field crew – clean house after Bobby leaves. PS. Pac – What do you do for a living? How freakin long did it take you to do this? Have a thesaurus by your computer any chance?.
by Nova Scotia Steve on Apr 27, 2010 6:39 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
Have any current Braves
Ever defended TP? Said he’s good with the young guys? Gave him a vote of confidence? If so – i haven’t read it.
by Nova Scotia Steve on Apr 27, 2010 6:45 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
this is brutal
so the evidence that terry pendleton is a bad hitting coach is weak, so you bring up other terrible evidence to suggest the opposite.
To start off, the Teixeria data is a joke. He’s a notorious second half hitter his numbers from the braves are skewed by the fact that they had him for his last 50 games in 2007. That’s why his numbers in los angeles look so gaudy, but you didn’t suggest they have a great hitting coach. And his numbers this year are terrible so far, so I guess the batting coach for the yankees got worse?
The rest of the numbers can just as well be seen as driven by good moves in the front office. Sheffield was old when he left. Renteria was a nice job of selling high on an aging shortstop. JD Drew has always been a crapshoot.
The point is, your supposed statistically driven argument for why pendleton is a good coach does not hold water. It’s based on about 10 cases and ignores the alternative explanation that when a player is traded or not resigned, there is generally a reason for this. You will generally want to trade a player when he is at is peak value (the implication being that he will go down from there -as your data shows). And you generally want a sign a guy for a period when you think he will be most productive, and not longer. Your data did very little, if anything, to attribute this to terry pendleton.
Finding everybody who said "Good Job" to the author of this post
And making a bitchy remark is brutal…
If you have a point to make, make it… It doesn’t require this:
Can I unrec
this is awful
If you think that
then you really missed the boat
too bad this isnt
in response to someone telling the author “Really Strong Work”
golf clap
the only thing worse than a terrible analysis like this, is the people that buy into it.
Being rude to the 95% of people who agree with the point of the original author (or at least appreciate the work he did in creating the data so we can make our own decision about what it means) is a poor way of getting people to instantly side with your opposing opinion…
Trust me, I know from experience…
"I may not agree with what you say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it." Beatrice Hall paraphrasing Voltaire. That being said, it is "Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt." Abraham Lincoln
by Vance in Sacramento on Apr 27, 2010 7:33 PM EDT up reply actions
Well said.
This guy is just a troll with severe self-esteem issues. Definitely someone to ignore from here on out as he has no worthwhile value to this site.
Another uninnocent, elegant fall into the unmagnificent lives of adults...
by Smoltz's Beard on Apr 28, 2010 8:43 AM EDT up reply actions
An actual response
First, just because someone’s opinion is in the minority doesn’t mean we have to jump down their throat for expressing it. I couldn’t disagree with you more but instead of attacking you, here is where I think you are missing the point.
The real point of this exercise is that if you look at all the data (rather than just cherrypicking a few fluky examples to support your case), there is no evidence that Terry Pendleton has been a bad hitting coach for the Braves. He may not have been a particularly good one, either
He already addressed you’re concerns that other factors were involved when it came to the performance of all those players. The point is that nobody can display any kind of hard evidence that proves that a hitting coach is doing a bad job. Just as these numbers may be flawed, so has every other poor excuse that has been given in support of firing TP.
my sentiments as well
I don’t have anything against TP (or for at this point…) and applaud your hard work on this article, but there are just too many other tangibles and intangibles for me to look at this data and make any conclusions. Sorry, but I think the only data that would make me feel one way or another on TP at this point would be a statement from all of TP’s former players on whether or not they felt his tutelage benefited them.
We’ve certainly heard something of the sort from Francoeur in the past, maybe someone else would like to speak up and help the Braves move on one way or another?
by Lifetime_Bravo on Apr 27, 2010 11:52 PM EDT up reply actions
Way to miss the entire point of the article.
Another uninnocent, elegant fall into the unmagnificent lives of adults...
by Smoltz's Beard on Apr 28, 2010 8:41 AM EDT up reply actions
On Teixeira. the data set with the braves is far from a joke. We did have him for his second half in 2007 and got his good side, we also got his first half of 2008 and got his bad side. So we essentially have a full season’s worth of data.
you are completely right about Drew, Sheffield, and Renteria, but I assume Pacgnosis wouldn’t disagree with you. There are tons of variables at play here.
Some people have said you’re missing the point of the article and it seems like you are, but to confirm I will tell you the point of hte article. The point is to shut the people up who think TP is a horrible hitting coach. There is no statistical evidence for this so its not logical to suggest he is bad unless you have some insider knowledge that you (not necessarily you personally, but you in the general sense, as in anyone reading this) would liek to impart on us all. There is some evidence that TP might be a good hitting coach as players seem to have better stats whilst they are here, however because of the myriad of factors at play there’s no way to measure how much impact TP really has on these players.
A note on your suggestion that teams trade player’s at their peak. Ideally this is true, however no one would reasonably make a trade for a player who they beleive is on the way down (contrary to the numerous examples of this phenonmenon happenign). Teams disagree about where the peak of a player is. So if your suggestion is that the Braves have been perfect in all of these examples at trading at peak, i would suggest thats putting way to much confidence into the Braves FO. I thnk the Braves FO is really really good, but there’s no way they are that much better than every other FO.
Finally, I appreciate that you did actually post real disagreements opposed to just snarky comments. Snarky comments offer nothing to the conversation, and you are sure to get some for your rebuttal, and based off ur snarky comments its probably deserved. I think you are reading a bit too much into the analysis here however, I don’t think the suggestion is that TP is a good hitting coach, just that we don’t know that he is bad, so there’s no reason to call for his head, unless there is more concete evidence of his ineptitude
i think i covered everything i wanted, but i reserve the right to be immature and call you names at a later date
Heyward,Hanson,and Shaffer r ready now!! Why do you think they havent signed the "right handed bat"?
by fatazfoot on Jan 7, 2009 8:59 PM EST
we also got his first half of 2008 and got his bad side
Yeah, that fact was conveniently not mentioned in his post.
Another uninnocent, elegant fall into the unmagnificent lives of adults...
by Smoltz's Beard on Apr 28, 2010 11:29 AM EDT up reply actions
Nice use of cute looking graphs and such
To make an astruded point. Did you pick and choose the stats and players that best made your point stand out? Certainly not the only way to look into this.
Plus…Stats alone dont mean squat!
Don Baylor
Great work Pacgnosis this really helps put things into perspective. Obviously this took some time, I wonder how the teams numbers match up compared to Don Baylors number when he was here. I don’t think these two are very comparable due to the lack of players that played for both. Chipper may be the only one, either way I always believed Baylor to be the best hitting coach the Braves have had in recent memory. This may be due to the talent level he had to work with as well as Chip really being in his prime during this time. Wish those years would return. Great post again.
by chippeforprez on Apr 27, 2010 10:16 PM EDT via mobile reply actions

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