Braves in the Hall???
by The Real Me on Mar 30, 2010 4:16 PM EDT
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PrintWhich Braves do you think should be in the Hall of Fame that aren't already in???
My list:
Dale Murphy - Long overdue. Overshadowed by the inflated steroid era. Second best player in the National League from 1982 -1987, behind Mike Schmidt.
Greg Maddux - Arguably the greatest pitcher ever. Tom Seaver might have him, but that's about it (except Satchel Paige, but we didn't see his greatness in the big leagues)
Tom Glavine - My favorite Brave of all time. A left handed Maddux without the pin-point accuracy.
John Smoltz - Fourth best power pitcher of his era, behind Clemens, Johnson, and Pedro. Best post-season pitcher of all time. Best starter-closer ever, edging out Hall of Famer Dennis Eckersley.
Chipper Jones - Greatest third baseman of his era, rock of the offense that won 14 straight division titles.
Andruw Jones - An unlikely selection, seeing as how he will forever be overshadowed by the steroid era, but you can't argue with nearly 350 home runs in his first 10 seasons (disregarding his 113 at bats in '96) and 10 straight Gold Gloves.
Javy Lopez - A homer pick, to be sure, but he was the best hitting catcher in the league twice and among the best in most of his full seasons. Injuries surely caught up to him. Like Andruw, he will be overshadowed by the steroid era, but look at his 162 game average according to BaseballReference.com: 28 HR, 93 RBI, .287 BA, .828 OPS. Those are ridiculous numbers for a catcher to average over the course of his career. Injuries kill his chances, but I feel he's deserving.
Bobby Cox - In every era there are three or four managers that are Hall of Fame worthy. Cox is undeniably among the best in his era. Fourteen straight division titles is a record. A World Series title. Five World Series appearances. Enough said.
Leo Mazzone - Greatest assistant coach of all time, and it's not just me. Google "E-Ticket: The Rock of Atlanta" and see what pops up. Pitchers lowered their ERAs by 0.64 points when joining Mazzone's staff and, after leaving, saw it jump 0.78 points on average.
On Their Way
Brian McCann - Second best catcher in baseball behind Joe Mauer, just as important to his team, and arguably more consistent. If he keeps it up, he'll punch that ticket sooner rather than later.
Tommy Hanson - If season one wasn't a fluke, and assuming he stays healthy, he should be one of the best in the league for years to come.
Jair Jurrjens - He's still only 24. Some more consistency and he could be the next Johan Santana.
Jason Heyward - He should already be in.
This FanPost does not express the views or opinions of Talking Chop.
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I know people here will get pissed but Murphy just isn’t a Hall of Famer. He was never the best player of his time and his stretch of greatness was fairly short. For a power hitter his 398 home runs is not impressive and that couple with a .265 BA its just not that good
Maddux, Glavine and Smotz are all show ins. Chipper is also in. He’s a power hitter with 426 home runs but he also has a great BA at .307. He has a legitimate shot at 500 home runs.
Lopez and Andruw have no shot at the Hall. Cox will be in as soon as he retires.
You're right about Murphy
But we’ll see about Andruw. It’s clear that, to some extent, the statistical revolution is catching on with Hall voting, though it’s very slow. Andruw’s got a few years left, and perhaps defense will matter to Hall voters-UZR just might catch on. Andruw has the best defensive season on record, and UZR at Fangraphs doesn’t have all of his prime years. He was robbed of an MVP in 2005 where defense wasn’t considered very much.
Lopez is not a hall of famer.
i just realized his BABiP in 05 was 240 so his best offensive season was the product of bad luck
Heyward,Hanson,and Shaffer r ready now!! Why do you think they havent signed the "right handed bat"?
by fatazfoot on Jan 7, 2009 8:59 PM EST
and i just ran his numbers that year through the simple xBABiP calculator at HBT and his xBABiP was 315 (i may have tremendously fucked that up, but w/e)….
that season was legend….wait for it….dary
wow he was really good
Heyward,Hanson,and Shaffer r ready now!! Why do you think they havent signed the "right handed bat"?
by fatazfoot on Jan 7, 2009 8:59 PM EST
As a fielder...
Ozzie Smith made it, would Andruw at least not compare defensively? Maybe his lack of highlight reel plays hurts, but his combo of O and D deserve the Hall.
To me, Andruw’s career in CF in Atlanta is a highlight reel. Did he ever let a ball drop? He was always diving, sliding and jumping. He got a better jump off the bat than anybody I’ve ever seen, making a lot of it look easy, but if it was close, he got it.
i think ur memory is clouded…i dont ever remember him diving, sliding, or jumping…all i remember is a lot og gliding to balls that no one else would have gotten to…I guess I remember a couple dives on balls in front of him.
Balls never dropped and he never had to exert any effort to get to anything his jumps are stuff of legend
Heyward,Hanson,and Shaffer r ready now!! Why do you think they havent signed the "right handed bat"?
by fatazfoot on Jan 7, 2009 8:59 PM EST
of*
and my comment about ur memory is merely in jest
Heyward,Hanson,and Shaffer r ready now!! Why do you think they havent signed the "right handed bat"?
by fatazfoot on Jan 7, 2009 8:59 PM EST
the most impressive play I ever remember seeing andruw make was a ball hit into the LF gap that had him starting in right center. When the ball was hit I thought “shit thats a triple for sure” and then it was “well maybe he can cut it to two or even a long single” and then he makes the catch and I was just floored that anyone could cover that much ground that fast and even had the audacity to think that he was going to catch it when the ball was hit. Simply amazing in the OF.
in response to your question
Andruw is the single best defensive player of his current era. I think he should be in the hall for that, but the Hall is dominated by offensive juggernauts because there are numbers to look at-career HRs, RBIs, what have you. There are no numbers which are historically relevant for defense (other than fielding percentage, which is crap). UZR only dates back to about 2000, and there’s no prior data to be found anywhere.
I’d put Andruw in for his defense, but the BBWAA likely won’t.
Thank I want to give u a big virtual hug…there’s no way on his merits Murphy belongs in the HoF, he should probably make it because he’s a better or equal player when compared to Jim Rice, but Rice doesnt belong either.
Javy has absolutely no shot, but i would think Andruw has a shot at the Hall…if he can find some sort of renaissance here towards the end of his career where he is OPSing around 820 for the next three years and playing a good corner OF spot (which is a bold prediction to be sure), he might make it. He may be hands down the best defensive CF of all time. If Brooks Robinson can make it there’s little reason Andruw shouldn’t he is a very good hitter and has the signature moment (the 19 year old kid who hit two HR in a WS game at Yankee stadium). Andruw will be a very interesting case but i think depending on how he finishes his career he might have a chance, but he needs to get better
and Cox leads the world in ejections that alone should get him in.
of course predictng players like Hanson, Jurrjens, and McCann into the HoF is ridiculous but its all in fun so w/e
Heyward,Hanson,and Shaffer r ready now!! Why do you think they havent signed the "right handed bat"?
by fatazfoot on Jan 7, 2009 8:59 PM EST
Damn I wish someone in the organization had convinced Andruw to drop the fork before he hit 240 lbs…
"Four of us wolves, running around the desert together in Las Vegas, looking for strippers and cocaine..."
ya…but im be optimistic here…he may have been the best CF of all time defensively, and unlike other defensive wizards (ya I’m talking about you Ozzie) he could really hit…the more I look at it the more i feel like even if he retired today he still might get in to the hall and i wouldn’t object that much
and someone needs to figure out why Andruw’s BABiP is so damn low the last couple of years…his xBABiP is crushing his actual BABIP…although its entirely possible that i am not doing the xBABiP correctly
Heyward,Hanson,and Shaffer r ready now!! Why do you think they havent signed the "right handed bat"?
by fatazfoot on Jan 7, 2009 8:59 PM EST
I think he’s going to have to get his shit together and have a few, probably more like 5, decent years as a corner OF, as you suggested, to get in. Statisically, I think he needs at least 2000 hits and probably 500 homers to get in with his SO’s and BA (which I’m not condoning, just stating). He was the standard defensively in CF, even when his skills ceased to live up to his reputation but he has some issues to overcome at a point when I’m not sure he physically can.
"Four of us wolves, running around the desert together in Las Vegas, looking for strippers and cocaine..."
like any HoF debate there are like two issues…1) what i think shoud happen, 2) what will happen
1) i think he should be in the HoF, i’ve completely crossed over in like 15-20minutes..his defense is too good to keep him out and his offensive is drastically underrated
2) he won’t make it unless he does what you say, he probably needs some milestones he can point to…at 2000 hits and 500 HR he is a lock, anything short of that is gonna be anyone’s guess as to the result…he is already better than Jim Rice
Heyward,Hanson,and Shaffer r ready now!! Why do you think they havent signed the "right handed bat"?
by fatazfoot on Jan 7, 2009 8:59 PM EST
Like I said, Andruw and Javy are overshadowed by the era. They won’t get in, but my opinion is that they deserve it.
Murphy’s per-season stats from 1982-1987:
161 G
598 AB
110 R
173 H
28 2B
36 HR
105 RBI
18 SB
90 BB
.289 AVG
.382 OBP
.531 SLG
.913 OPS
Those are MVP-caliber numbers TODAY, let alone 25 years ago, before the steroid era. People look at the .265 batting average and 398 home runs and say it isn’t good enough, but they forget that Mike Schmidt hit .267, and he didn’t play as deep into his declining years as Murphy. They think, “398 home runs, McGwire hit 583!” Well McGwire juiced. The pitching wasn’t as good. He had better hitters protecting him. Add 5 Gold Gloves, an MVP caliber year in 1980, in addition to ’82-87, and there is no way you can tell me he is not a Hall of Famer.
5-6 year run of really good baseball does not equal a HoF career…unless those years are so good they make u a legend… like Koufax (and honestly and this may be balsphemous but Koufax doesnt have the resume most credit to him and his status in the Hall could at least be debated..
Heyward,Hanson,and Shaffer r ready now!! Why do you think they havent signed the "right handed bat"?
by fatazfoot on Jan 7, 2009 8:59 PM EST
That’s the problem with him though. Yes his stretch from 82-87 was very good but after that he dropped off a lot. In 1987 he hit 44 home runs at age 31. He wouldn’t top 25 the rest of his career. Schmidt also had 548 home runs in his career.
Murphy had a 6 year peak
Outside of that, he was barely an average player. Barely. It’s not a hall of fame resume, but it will have you remembered very fondly. Just like I can love Terry Pendleton and not think of him as a Hall of Fame player.
Best player of his time
The best player of the 1980’s was, of course, Mike Schmidt, but it was awfully close. Murphy won back-to-back MVPs for a reason. Partly, it was because they didn’t want to give it to Schmidt every year, but partly, it was because he hit 40 homers and played Gold Glove defense in one of the most important positions on the diamond. I think you can argue that he was arguably the best player in the league in either of those years.
http://www.chop-n-change.com
by alexwithclass on Apr 1, 2010 12:53 AM EDT up reply actions
Best player in the league for 2 years /=/ HoF.
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Apr 1, 2010 11:37 AM EDT up reply actions
I think that speaks more to the lack of quality players than for Murph – just my opinion, of course.
I have always viewed the 80s as a really down decade in terms of baseball talent.
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Apr 1, 2010 4:51 PM EDT up reply actions
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Mar 30, 2010 4:53 PM EDT reply actions
If I had the deciding vote…
Maddox, Glavine, Smoltz, Chipper and Cox get in
Lopez and Murphy do not
Andruw….damn he was good in the field and at the plate, I’d be tempted to vote yes for his 1st 10 years, but after that he gets questionable. If he finishes strong yes, if he stumbles in, no.
Schearholtz…yes
ow my eyes are bleeding
*MADDUX, *SCHUERHOLZ
by BravesRaleigh on Mar 31, 2010 12:25 AM EDT up reply actions
I accept that I screwed up Schuerholtz, I am deeply ashamed and trying to come up with a lie to explain mispelling Madduz
Good God
All this started because I was thinking Mad Dog, the z is next to the x on my keyboard, that was just a mis-stroke. I may never type his name again.
What’s lulz?
this site is far from binding authority but nontheless its pretty interesting
http://www.baseballprojection.com/war/top500.htm
Murphy is at 227 at 44 WAR for his career, Andruw had 38 from 2002-2007, that website predicts him at 58.4 so anyone who wants to compare the two is drastically mistaken.
and for the record Murhy is about 3 WAR above Rice…so the Hall is obviously crazy
Heyward,Hanson,and Shaffer r ready now!! Why do you think they havent signed the "right handed bat"?
by fatazfoot on Jan 7, 2009 8:59 PM EST
It's funny how TotalZone and UZR disagree
UZR thinks Andruw was legendary in 2005, defensively. TotalZone thinks it was one of his worst years. UZR thinks he really came back to earth in 2006, while TotalZone thinks it was a big rebound for him.
ya admittedly i am very unfamiliar with TotalZone, but it appears there are some descrepencies as always
Heyward,Hanson,and Shaffer r ready now!! Why do you think they havent signed the "right handed bat"?
by fatazfoot on Jan 7, 2009 8:59 PM EST
The best way to scout a fielder is with your eyes, UZR and things of that sort are just for unknowns. I guarantee that no scout or coach pays those ANY attention. They might hear of a player with and abnormally great numbers and go watch him play, but no one makes money, all-star games, or hall of fames for those silly things.
Exactly. Fielding stats are impossible, just give up and watch the games. I can agree on hitting stats for the most part (although that gets out of control on occasion, too), but I’ve heard these stats say Derek Jeter is the worst shortstop in the league when he won the Gold Glove. Now, granted, the Gold Glove is generally a useless award, seeing as how only the stars get it and you never see the guys who can field but can’t hit get any recognition (Adam Everett), but I wouldn’t be willing to say that any unbiased watcher who has seen Jeter play would say he is anywhere near the worst shortstop in the league.
by The Real Me on Mar 31, 2010 11:33 AM EDT up reply actions
Jeter is not a good defender, gold gloves be damned. No way in the world that Jeter is in the top 10 of defensive SS.
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Mar 31, 2010 12:10 PM EDT up reply actions
Jeter is not as good as he once was but I would say that he is still a good defender. Yes, I would say that the Yankees probably have a younger, better fielding shortstop in there minor leagues, and hitting is what makes Jeter different, but I don’t see him costing the Yankees many runs defensivly.
There are easily 9 or 10 guys that are better than Jeter.
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Mar 31, 2010 12:37 PM EDT up reply actions
Touche’
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Mar 31, 2010 5:09 PM EDT up reply actions
Maddux- Lock
Glavine- Lock
Cox- Lock
Chipper- He’s a lock if he can churn out two more years but he’s pretty much in now anyway with an MVP, WS ring, 2400+ hits, 420+ HR’s, and 1400+ RBI’s. The underappreciated superstar of his era.
Smoltz- not a lock imo but I think he’s going to get in one way or another.
Shuerholz- In, but I think he’s going to have some opposition to his candidacy as a GM with just one WS title
Dale Murphy- Not happening
Next up has to be McCann imo
"Four of us wolves, running around the desert together in Las Vegas, looking for strippers and cocaine..."
you don’t think Chipper is a lock to go to the HoF..
he is one of 14 dudes who played more than 2000 games to post slash stats of 300/400/500 11 of them are in the Hall or will be (Frank Thomas and Edgar will get in i think)
he is the only switch hitter to bat 300 and have 400 HR…you could keep on with this stuff he’s a lock to go to the HoF and should be a first ballot and if he’s not there’s something wrong with the voters. (and that’s if he retired tomorrow)
there is nothing else CHipper needs to do he’s aleady the 3rd best switch hitter of all time (ill put Murray and Mantle ahead of him bc of defence to those two but its damn close)…he’s one of the best 3B ever. and a lifetime Brave (hopefully)
Heyward,Hanson,and Shaffer r ready now!! Why do you think they havent signed the "right handed bat"?
by fatazfoot on Jan 7, 2009 8:59 PM EST
Don’t get me wrong, I believe Chipper could retire tomorrow and would get in. I’m just saying I don’t think his percentages will be as high as Maddux and less so Glavine, largely because of the “milestone” qualifications so many voters impose. Thats what I was hinting at with churning out 2 more years but actually he would need more than that to get the big milestones. I think his defense will draw some criticism, not that he necessarily deserves it, but nonetheless, voters nitpick. The Braves generally get some negative marks nationally for “only winning 1 WS”, and with the pitching being billed as the staple of those teams, it implies some failure on the part of the bats. Anyway, I’d expect him to get a lower percentage of the vote as compared to Jeter, Maddux, etc and thus his chances of getting in are also lower than theirs. Maybe it’s still within the lock range but thats arbitrary and who knows how the at times irrational BBWAA will vote exactly.
"Four of us wolves, running around the desert together in Las Vegas, looking for strippers and cocaine..."
you say eddie murray is a better switch hitter but leave pete rose out of it? come on now
by BravesRaleigh on Mar 31, 2010 12:28 AM EDT up reply actions
Pete Rose had no power…he ws one of the best contact hitters of all time and a great player, but his breadth of skill was not that extensive…Murray is the only switch hitter with 3000 hits and 500 HR…and he’s one of only 4 people with those nbrs…
by going strickly by OPS+, Murray is considerably better with a 129 and Rose at 118
its probably close, but i think Murray is better
Heyward,Hanson,and Shaffer r ready now!! Why do you think they havent signed the "right handed bat"?
by fatazfoot on Jan 7, 2009 8:59 PM EST
Andruw, yes. Javy, I realize I’m literally the only one on the planet that thinks this, but I think he has a better case than anyone would think. It won’t happen in a million years (he’ll probably never even get a vote), but… lets just say I’m a homer. Plus he’s my third favorite Braves position player ever behind Jason Heyward (obviously) and Julio Franco (now that I think of it, I’m ashamed I didn’t add him)… but that obviously has nothing to do with it.
Sure Javy was a good catcher in his day, but his defense wasn’t great (at one of the few positions that defense is actually taken into account) and he only had 1 season where he got more than 500 ABs. Mike Piazza and Ivan Rodriguez during that same span both had 6+ seasons each. Its really hard for catchers to get in unless they are really good for really long (really most hall guys are like that except with Koufax and a couple others).
Julio Franco would be in teh Hall if he would ever retire..the guy is awesome…
well i guess he wont be in the HoF for baseball but I’d put him in the awesome HoF
Heyward,Hanson,and Shaffer r ready now!! Why do you think they havent signed the "right handed bat"?
by fatazfoot on Jan 7, 2009 8:59 PM EST
Before there was Chuck Norris, there was Julio.
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Mar 30, 2010 11:16 PM EDT up reply actions
Maddux – Yes
Glavine – Yes
Smoltz – Yes
Chipper – Yes
Javy – WHAT???
Andruw – We’ll see…if he can rebound offensively, his gove from yesteryear may get him in
Hanson – He has pitched in less than 25 career games…
Heyward – He has never had a Major League AB….
JJ – No.
McCann – Not even close yet.
This fanpost reaks of homerism.
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Mar 30, 2010 11:15 PM EDT reply actions
Haha, yes it does. Look I hope they all get in. It’s just not happening. Cox, Maddux, Glavine, Smoltz, Chip are locks. Javy is just stupid. Your a homer, ok. I’d love to see him there, too. But let’s get realistic. Andruw is one of my favorite players of all time, but I don’t even see him as being close and needs a few more years. I don’t think he has a shot.
For current players, JJ won’t. JHey, Mac, and Hanson have the potential to, but let’s give them another 5 or 10 years before we’re discussing that. Instead, how about we discuss their shot at a playoff game this year.
"Spring Training is the most exciting time that can't end soon enough" - Me
I can't take this Javy thing seriously...
162 game avg. (he only had 1 season over 138 games)
AB – 573
H – 165
AVG – .287
HR – 28
RBI – 93
OBP – .337
SLG – .491
CS – 28%
3 time All-Star
Silver Slugger in ‘03(anyone who doesn’t think he was using something that year is insane)
and
Ranks with FYF among All-Time Female Favorites at Turner Field.
Not worthy… Good, but enough.
"Spring Training is the most exciting time that can't end soon enough" - Me
I think you said the magic words – just because someone is a good, or even REALLY good player, it doesn’t mean they belong in the hall. Players like Murph and company dillute the Hall (if he were to get in) to where you just have to be good, and not legendary to get in.
I personally think they should only vote on the HoF every 5 or 10 years or so.
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Mar 30, 2010 11:42 PM EDT up reply actions
Andruw isn’t “legendary” either…. at all.
"Spring Training is the most exciting time that can't end soon enough" - Me
i disagree…he defense makes him legendary….i garauntee in 20-25 years people will still be talking about his defense and thats what makes him legendary…and then his offense is really very good , maybe not HoF worthy on its own, but when coupled wiht his outstanding defense he has a good shot, especially if he can get to like 450 HR
Heyward,Hanson,and Shaffer r ready now!! Why do you think they havent signed the "right handed bat"?
by fatazfoot on Jan 7, 2009 8:59 PM EST
This. His offense was good, but his defense was like, all-time great.
It is kind of interesting that he needs his offense to rebound and carry him into the HoF, when, if he makes it at all, it will be due to his glove.
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Mar 31, 2010 12:10 AM EDT up reply actions
OK OK you guys got a point… But take a second and out loud say the names of the “Legendary” CF’s, then say Andruw Jones. I don’t know I just can’t see it happening.
"Spring Training is the most exciting time that can't end soon enough" - Me
I just did it, and it was rather easy.
However, I struggled a bit when I said Johnny Bench, Yogi Berra and then Brian McCann…
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Mar 31, 2010 12:57 AM EDT up reply actions
Yeah, if you try it again in 10 years it might come out a little easier but that’s still a stretch.
"Spring Training is the most exciting time that can't end soon enough" - Me
Andruw is better defensively than every CF to have played that is considered great, except maybe two guys Dimaggio and Mays..those are the only two that i don’t know that Andruw is better than…and Andruw’s offense isn’t atrocious like Ozzie’s
Heyward,Hanson,and Shaffer r ready now!! Why do you think they havent signed the "right handed bat"?
by fatazfoot on Jan 7, 2009 8:59 PM EST
Not only will JJ not get in, he won’t ever even be on a ballot.
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Mar 30, 2010 11:43 PM EDT up reply actions
Exactly… JJ is a GOOD pitcher that I hope we pair with Hanson for years to come. He is a huge part of this team. He will never, ever go to the HOF.
"Spring Training is the most exciting time that can't end soon enough" - Me
Maybe JJ will go to a bunch of World Series'
And he’ll be like a Jack Morris who had a bunch of above average seasons and is remembered as a clutch performer. But unless he becomes much more effective (it’s possible-he’s all of 8 months older than Hanson) that’s as close as he’ll be to the Hall.
(Do over)
Everyone would have said exactly the same thing after Glav’s 1st two seasons.
The lesson: Only time will tell.
I would argue that JJ has probably already reached his ceiling while Glav had quite a ways to go. I think we have seen JJ as good as he can get. Not saying he can’t remain this good for a few years, but even then, he isn’t pitching HoF worthy.
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Mar 31, 2010 5:11 PM EDT up reply actions
well
a couple of more seasons with an ERA under 3.00 (unlikely as that is) and he would be HoF worthy, no? I mean, how many guys do that more than a year or two anymore?
by Andy Braves Fan on Mar 31, 2010 5:26 PM EDT up reply actions
And speaking of Glavine
Cal Ripkin Jr. actually told me that he didn’t think Glavine would turn out as good as he did, Glavine being a soft-tossing lefty. That was a cool conversation.
by Andy Braves Fan on Mar 31, 2010 5:28 PM EDT up reply actions
JJ is more talented than Glavine. If JJ can learn to stay consistent and have half the mental edge a guy like Glavine had, wait a couple years and he could win a Cy or two… Granted you could say that about any number of guys across the league, but look at him… 30 wins and a 3.21 ERA at age 23. Watch as the Braves young team turns into a great team, he could be a perennial All-Star. Baseball Reference says the best comparison at age 22 was Roger Clemens and at 23 is Scott Sanderson. At worst he’s a good ML pitcher for 20 years (Sanderson) and at best he’s one of the best ever (Clemens). Then again, Sanderson was never on a great team like I think the Braves could be. Say Jurrjens is in between and wins 200 games with a 3.50 ERA and 2,000 Ks. Not a bad career at all. In fact, if he’s a good post-season pitcher, he could be a fringe Hall of Famer. And he could be a lot better than that. It’s too early to say he will but you can’t just write him off yet.
I can’t write him off based on what he speculatively will do, just as you can write him in based on what he has done so far.
The bottom line is that we don’t know who JJ is yet.
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Mar 31, 2010 6:02 PM EDT up reply actions
Ah, the beauty of your dichotomy...
“The bottom line is that we don’t know who JJ is yet.”
Coming from the same man who apparently knows that…
“JJ has probably already reached his ceiling while Glav had quite a ways to go. I think we have seen JJ as good as he can get.”
Sure, you got qualifiers like “I think” and “probably” mixed in there. But for someone who “bottom line” doesn’t know what JJ is yet, you seemed pretty confident he’s reached his ceiling.
And that is what we call an opinion. We all have them.
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Mar 31, 2010 6:40 PM EDT up reply actions
And yours frequently seem to impose each other
Either you don’t know who JJ is yet, or he’s reached his ceiling, not both.
by Mr. Sanchez on Mar 31, 2010 10:11 PM EDT up reply actions
lol. Keep trying.
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Mar 31, 2010 11:37 PM EDT up reply actions
Either way you try to spin this, I used the words “probably”, “I think”, and “don’t know”, so I really am clueless as to what your point is…
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Mar 31, 2010 6:42 PM EDT up reply actions
I just don’t think anyones name should be mentioned for the Hall of Fame until they have 10 years of service in the Majors. Chipper, Maddux, Glavine, Smoltz are in, I am on the fence with Andruw, and McGriff, the rest I just can’t see. Over a ten year span I really can’t think of any outfielders I have ever seen play I would rather have. All around, I would take Griffey, Bonds, and I am not sure who else. If his numbers would have faided off for 5 years, I think he would have been in, but they just hit a wall. In my eyes he is in, buta couple more above average years I think he gets voted in.
Chipper, Maddux, Glavine, Smoltz, Cox, Mazzone are obvious
Murphy is probably as deserving as the Hawk was…
and in regards to what others have posted, for his era 398 HRs is really good. Should he be in? He is a fringe candidate. I would argue that if Jim Rice got in, Murphy should, but I guess that is using comparisons…
Andruw is an interesting case. I don’t know what will happen with him. I think he is deserving for his 10 years of defensive dominance, and his bat was very good. He hasn’t been implicated for steroids yet, so barring that he has a decent shot.
The young guys… we will see. McCann is under-rated today, and I fear he will be perpetually under the shadow of Mauer.
by Andy Braves Fan on Mar 31, 2010 12:47 PM EDT reply actions
Maddux – 1st ballot, although the Hall may enshrine him as a Cub. We’ll see.
Glavine – 1st ballot
Smoltz, Chipper – in, but not 1st ballot. I think both will take some time to get in. Smoltz being this era’s Eck but better.
‘Druw, Javy – I’ll eat my own face if either are elected. Not saying I’d be mad about it, but there’s no shot of either of them getting in.
Current Braves – Let’s not put the cart too far in front of the horse just yet, eh?
tUMD Hockey: In search of a title! But probably not this year.
Also, Bobby and Schuerholz are locks.
tUMD Hockey: In search of a title! But probably not this year.
Im not sure how they don’t vote Chipper in first ballot. 14 seasons he hits atleast 20 home runs. And MVP, Wold Series, Batting Title, over a .300 batting average for his career as a switch hitter, never struck out 100 times in a season, a player that has been a model of consistancy for a 15+ year career. I just don’t know what else he could prove. If he isn’t a first ballot is a shame.
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