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Around SBN: Are The Orioles Bad Or Unlucky With Their Young Pitching?

2010 NL East Fan Projections: Wrap-Up

Introduction

Hi again, everybody.  Welcome to sixth and final part of my series on the 2010 Fan Projections from FanGraphs. Here are the links to the first 5 parts:

In this part, I'll use all the fan projections to create projected 2010 NL East standings. I'll also look at the salaries of each team to see which team is getting the most bangs for its bucks (hint: it's the team that is only paying 3 players more than $5M this year). Finally, I'll break each team down individually and hand out some awards.

Before we get into it, one big caveat (in addition to the many others from the earlier posts): I've only covered 23 players on each team. As I'm sure you know, 25 players are active at one time, and teams typically use at least 35-40 players in a given year. Of course, many of these extra players will not have much impact, but some of them will--even if that impact is negative. A team that manages to get positive WAR from its mid-season call-ups and acquisitions will be in good shape to outperform its projection.

Star-divide

Projected 2010 NL East Standings

If you're really clever, you may have already figured out who comes out on top. If you're not clever, or if you're just too lazy to add the numbers up from the previous posts, here are the final fan-projected WAR standings, broken down by position:

4447396085_f10f117ec2_o_medium

That's right, the fans project your Atlanta Braves to edge out the Phillies for the division title, based on WAR. This is a somewhat unexpected result, as I believe the "expert" consensus is that the Phillies are the best team in the division (and maybe the league). Heck, even I would pick the Phils to win the East, if only based on past success. Much like the 1991-2005 Braves, I'm finding it hard to pick against them until they actually lose.

Fighting for third place are the Marlins and Mets. This seems about right to me, unless the Mets get better-than-expected health from their stars, in which case I think they'll beat out the Marlins fairly easily. The Nats* bring up the rear, as usual (though perhaps 2011 will be different...).

* One note about the Nats. Since they cut Elijah Dukes, I've replaced him in their WAR values with Justin Maxwell, which results in a loss of 1.1 WAR. Not that it makes a huge difference in the standings.

Now, let's convert the WAR values into some actual standings. To do this, I'm going to take the WAR values above and add a constant value. Since WAR is "Wins Above Replacement", we have to consider how many wins a replacement-level team would get in a 162-game season. According to various articles I've read on FanGraphs, this number is around 47 wins.

We can't just add 47 to the WAR values above, however. We also need to add in a downward adjustment, to take into account the fact that fans tend to overproject the number of PAs and IP that a team will get over the course of the year. We should also adjust downward to account for the certainty of injuries. Of course, injuries will not be evenly apportioned among the teams (just look at the 2009 Mets, or the 2008 Braves), but since there's no way to project that, we'll treat each team equally. All in all, I'd say that the total downward adjustment should be on the order of 10-15 wins. To be somewhat conservative, I'm going to go with a 14 win downgrade. That means I'll be adding 33 wins to the WAR values above to get the projected standings.

So here are the standings. I've also included each team's estimated runs scored and runs allowed, and the 2009 records.

  Proj. 2010 Record Proj. Run Differential 2009 Record
Team Wins Losses Scored Allowed Wins Losses
Braves 88 74 745 685 86   76
Phillies 87 75 756 702 93   69
Mets 81 81 736 738 70   92
Marlins 80 82 726 727 87   75
Nationals 72 90 700 787 59 103

As you can see, the races for 1st place and 3rd place are projected to be very tight. And Washington, even though it is projected to finish last, is still projected to improve by 13 games, which is quite good. The Mets are also projected to improve by 11 games, which makes sense, provided they can escape the injury bug that so plagued them last year (seriously, at one point I thought we were going to see a transaction like this: "Mets place 2B Luis Castillo on 15-day DL after he inexplicably wakes up as a cockroach.").

One thing to keep in mind whenever you see projections like this is that the margin of error is rather large. I'd say that a difference of 5% (around 4 games) in either direction is almost meaningless, and a difference of 10% (around 8 games) is very possible. Of course, anything can happen, but based on the these projections, we can tell that the fans would expect the Braves to win between 84 and 93 games in most scenarios, for instance, and between 79 and 97 games in almost all scenarios.

Below, I've created a graph that shows these ranges of possibility for each team. The "Likely Range" is within 5% of a team's projected win total; the "Best Case" and "Worst Case" differ from the projection by 10%. I've also included last year's win total for reference.

4448170778_79edd94506_o_medium

According to these projections, it would take a minor miracle for the Nats to finish ahead of the Braves or Phils, but almost any other arrangement of teams is plausible. We could see 4 teams in the 83-86 win range, or 1 team with 95 wins and no other at much better than .500. The important thing to emphasize is that there's very little difference in the fans' minds between the Braves and Phillies, or between the Mets and Marlins. These projections won't be "wrong" if the Phillies top the Braves by 4 or 5 games, or if the Mets or Marlins win the division. (A projection can't really be "wrong", anyway--that's like saying that a fairy tale is "wrong".)

What we can say is that the fans think the Braves and Phillies have a much greater chance of winning the division than the other teams do. Maybe something like Braves 45%, Phillies 40%, Mets 10%, Marlins 5% (I haven't crunched the numbers; those are just guesstimates).

Salaries and Value

Now that we have projected the final standings, it's worth spending some time to analyze the spending habits of each franchise. The NL East has a good mix of markets--the big-market Mets and Phillies, the mid-market Braves and Nats, and the small-market Marlins (though Miami is of course not a "small" market, only a bad one for baseball). Accordingly, the Mets spend money much more liberally than the Marlins, who have been almost cruelly frugal in recent years. 

I totaled up the base salaries for each team using the same 23-man rosters that I used for all the previous projections*. To do this, I used the marvelous salary website Cot's Baseball Contracts. I used only the base salary for each player; the escalators and bonus clauses are only significant in a few cases, such as Troy Glaus' deal, so this shouldn't affect things too much. Here is each team's payroll broken down by position, as with the WAR graph above:

* This means that some players who are guaranteed fairly big money are not included in these totals, most notably Jamie Moyer. You don't need me to tell you that that contract is a bad one, though, right?

4448170706_70e9f0df64_o_medium

There is lots of fun information to be gathered from this graph, especially when combined with the WAR standings from above. My favorite fact is that the Phillies are spending more on their 'pen than the Braves, Marlins, and Nationals combined. And that is without Moyer's contract; if Moyer ends up in their bullpen, that'd be over $30M for a bullpen that isn't even very good. Ouch.

It's interesting to examine how each team has divided its resources. For instance, the Braves have spent a very high percentage of their payroll on starters, which shows the traditional Atlanta emphasis on pitching. The Braves are also the only team that is spending any significant amount on catchers--but then, the Braves are also the only team with catchers worth spending significant money on. It is also interesting to see that both the Phillies and Nats have spent almost as much on relievers as on starters, which is hard to do, not to mention inadvisable in most cases.

The next question is, which teams are getting the most WAR for their (millions of) dollars?

Value

The simplest measure of value is to just divide a team's payroll by its WAR value to see how much bang they are getting for their buck.  Here are each team's results:

Team Total Salary Total WAR $ per WAR
Marlins $  42.9M 47.0 $0.91M
Nationals $  56.0M 38.9 $1.44M
Braves $  81.4M 55.1 $1.48M
Phillies $131.8M 54.2 $2.43M
Mets $117.0M 47.9 $2.44M

Unsurprisingly, the Marlins come out on top in $ per WAR. They spend so little that they'd have to be really bad to not get the best value as a team--and of course, they're not bad (though the fans don't think they're that good, either). Next up are the Nationals and Braves, who both come in just shy of $1.5M per WAR, which is pretty good. The Mets and Phillies get much less value, but then that makes sense, since they spend so much more. If you give out enough $15M/year contracts, a few of them are going to be bad ones.

Another way of looking at value is by examining each player's contract compared to his production. Even cheap players (like 2/3 the Marlins' roster) can be bad values if they don't produce anything, and of course a player who produces a negative WAR is not worth having on the roster at any price (*cough* FUGA *cough*). I broke down each contract into one of five categories:

  • Excellent Value: less than $1M per WAR (mostly players who have yet to hit arbitration)
  • Very Good Value: $1M - $2M per WAR
  • Good Value: $2M - $4M per WAR
  • Poor Value: $4M - $8M per WAR
  • Very Poor Value: more than $8M per WAR

You can quibble with my categories if you want, but I decided to use $4M per WAR as a dividing line, since that's about where the price per WAR has been in free agency the past few years. Here is how each team stacks up in these categories:

4447396551_f3b360471c_o_medium

The Braves are the only team with no "Very Poor" contracts, and they only have 2 "Poor" contracts (can you guess who?). The Phillies and Mets have the most "Very Poor" contracts, though the Nationals have the most "Poor" contracts. The Marlins lead in "Excellent" deals, which makes sense given their payroll, but every team except the Phillies is doing OK in that department. It should be noted that not all "Very Poor" deals are created equal; the Marlins have 3 "Very Poor" contracts, but none of them is expensive--the players just aren't that good.

Below, I examine each team's value situation in more detail. I will also give out some awards for each team.

Atlanta Braves

For every team, I've plotted each contract vs. the projected WAR for that player. I've shaded the regions for each value category from above (darker = worse value). Generally, the further to the right and the lower a player's mark is located, the better. Many of the key players are labeled. Here's the Braves' scatterplot:

4448170978_bff419cd3e_o_medium

This graph is a testament to the shrewdness of John Schuerholz and Frank Wren. There are 3 things that a good middle-market GM must do: 1) develop lots of cheap but good young talent; 2) lock up that talent to affordable long-term deals; and 3) sign or trade for veterans who can put you over the top. The Braves' GMs have done all 3. The Braves project to get more than 20 WAR just from young players on near-league-minimum deals, which is something not even the Marlins can say. Other Braves have been signed affordably, most notably Brian McCann, whose deal continues to be a fantastic bargain. And just in the past year or so, Wren has added McLouth, Cabrera, Kawakami, Lowe, Glaus, Wagner, and Saito--more than 15 projected WAR, none of whom has a Very Poor rating.

You may be saying, "but the Wagner and Saito deals are rated as Poor, and Lowe and Kawakami are just barely in the Good range." First off: pitchers will naturally rate worse than hitters, because they don't get into as many games. Add in the fact that their free-agent prices are driven up by the scarcity of good pitchers, and it's easy to see how $15M for Derek Lowe can actually be a decent deal. As for Wagner and Saito, despite their "Poor" value, you could argue that the Braves actually got them for below-market prices. Just compare those guys' deals to similar pitchers on other teams; you'll see that Wren has actually done well on his free-agent pitcher signings.

I could go on, but you get the point. None of Wren's deals is a disaster if these players perform anywhere near their projected levels. I know the Lowe contract seems like a pain in the butt right now, but it could be so much worse, as we shall see.

Braves Awards

Best Position Player in 2010: Brian McCann (but don't rule out a certain someone...)

Best Pitcher in 2010: Tommy Hanson

Best Value in 2010 (arbitration-eligible or later): McCann

Best Pre-arbitration Player: Hanson

Secret Weapon (minor leaguer not covered in these projections who could make an impact in 2010): Craig Kimbrel

Florida Marlins

Here's the scatterplot for the Marlins:

4447396281_782496b134_o_medium

No Marlin makes even $8M, and only 6 make more than $2M. That's pretty remarkable. One of the unfortunate side effects of having such a low payroll, though, is that you can't afford to fill out the roster with good role players. That's how you get such a bad bullpen and bench, despite having a decent starting lineup and rotation. Also: I'm very surprised the Marlins didn't just cut or trade Leo Nuñez instead of paying him $2M. I doubt that he'll be worth that much.

Marlins Awards

Best Position Player in 2010: Hanley Ramirez

Best Pitcher in 2010: Josh Johnson

Best Value in 2010: Ramirez

Best Pre-arbitration Player: Chris Coghlan

Secret Weapon: Logan Morrison

New York Mets

Here's the scatterplot for the Mets:

4447396389_a0ca4ec84a_o_medium

Man, there are a lot of bad contracts here. We all know about Frenchy. Then there's Alex Cora's $2M deal, which I think everyone agrees was an overpay--he's a useful backup, but you don't give those guys $2M. Krod's deal looks like a disaster at this point. And Oliver Perez! What would he have made if the Mets hadn't given him $12M per year for 3 years? I'm guessing something like a $5M, 1-year deal. Then there's Johan Santana, who is a great pitcher when healthy... but no pitcher should ever make more than $20M. He'd have to put up a 5.5 WAR season to make his contract look at all decent. Luis Castillo, Feliciano... The list of overpaid guys goes on. And none of this includes Jason Bay, whose contract jumps to $16M in the last 3 years. It's safe to say that one won't look good by 2013.

On a more positive note, Wright and Reyes are signed to very team-friendly long-term deals, and there are a few pretty good young players. So... yeah. Good job, Omar.

Mets Awards

Best Position Player in 2010: David Wright

Best Pitcher in 2010: Johan Santana

Best Value in 2010: Wright (assuming he's back to normal)

Best Pre-arbitration Player: Mike Pelfrey

Secret Weapon: Ike Davis (or Jennry Mejia, although he really should be a starter in the minors)

Philadelphia Phillies

Here's the scatterplot for the Phillies:

4447396229_c4f2e1a803_o_medium

The Phillies have done a remarkable job of signing their regular players to good deals, despite none of them being pre-arbitration guys. Of the 8 starting position players, 5 rate as "Very Good" values, and Carlos Ruiz rates as "Excellent". (Ryan Howard and Raul Ibañez rate as being slightly overpaid, but not drastically so.) Their top 3 pitchers are all signed to reasonable deals as well--at least this year.

On the down side, the Phillies only have a few pre-arbitration guys (J.A. Happ is the only significant one), and their bullpen is full of bad contracts. Brad Lidge's deal is probably one of the 5 worst values in MLB, and it could be the worst if he doesn't improve on last year. And then there's Moyer's deal, which isn't even included on the scatterplot because he didn't make my 23-man roster. If the Phillies want to keep contending for titles in the future, Ruben Amaro is going to have to figure out how to build a better, cheaper bullpen.

Phillies Awards

Best Position Player in 2010: Chase Utley

Best Pitcher in 2010: Roy Halladay

Best Value in 2010: Jayson Werth (or Utley, or maybe Victorino)

Best Pre-arbitration Player: J.A. Happ (by default)

Secret Weapon: Domonic Brown (only if an outfielder gets hurt)

Washington Nationals

Here's the scatterplot for the Nationals:

4448171126_d69aa5aaaf_o_medium

The Nats are a weird mix of mostly uninspiring young guys (with the exceptions of Zimmerman and Morgan) and overpaid veterans (Guzman, Marquis, Rodriguez). On the plus side, the Wang deal is a good gamble, Zimmerman's contract is great, and they have a few young guys who should be able to help by 2011 (Jordan Zimmermann, Strasburg, Drew Storen). They need a lot of help right now, but there is some hope.

I would warn Mike Rizzo, though, that extending Adam Dunn is foolish. Everyone repeat after me: Adam Dunn is a DH. He cannot play 1B. He cannot play LF. Unless the Nats are planning on switching leagues, they should try to trade Dunn at the deadline to an AL contender in need of his bat. If they can't do that, they should let him walk and use that money to improve the rotation (or sign a 1B who can actually play 1B--they'll be plenty of them available after 2011).

Nationals Awards

Best Position Player in 2010: Ryan Zimmerman (no contest)

Best Pitcher in 2010: Uh... Lannan? Who am I kidding, it's probably Strasburg, even now

Best Value in 2010 (arbitration-eligible or later): Zimmerman

Best Pre-arbitration Player: Nyjer Morgan

Secret Weapon: I forget his name... I think it starts with an "S".

My Predictions

My projected standings are a bit different from the fans':

Phillies: 91-71
Braves: 89-73 (wild card)
Marlins: 84-78 (Fredi Gonzalez is worth a few extra wins to me)
Mets: 77-85 (I don't like their rotation at all, and the Reyes and Beltran situations are worrisome)
Nationals: 70-92

NL East Awards

Best Position Player: Hanley Ramirez (edging out Utley)

Best Pitcher: Roy Halladay, fairly easily

Best Reliever: Billy Wagner

Best Bench Player: Angel Pagan (by a nose over Eric Hinske)

Best Value: Ramirez

Best Pre-arbitration Player: Tommy Hanson

Rookie of the Year: Truckasaurus (i.e. Jason Heyward--the most obvious of any of these predictions)

Wrap-Up

Overall, I'd say that the fans have done a very good job with their projections (and I'm not just saying that because the Braves came out on top). I disagree on a few players here and there, but I wouldn't be at all surprised if "the wisdom of crowds" beat out CHONE and the other projection systems in 2010. What do you guys think of the fans' projections overall?

I'm also interested to know the TC community's projections and predictions. In addition to predicted NL East standings, who would you guys pick for any of the awards above? What players or teams do you think are most likely to out-perform or under-perform their projections?

Thanks to all of you who have read any part of this series. It's been a lot of fun. I hope to look back on it when the season is done to see how the fans did. If you have any suggestions for other projections/predictions that I could track during the season, let me know in the comments.

Poll
Who will win the NL East in 2010?
Braves
127 votes
Phillies
48 votes
Mets
2 votes
Marlins
2 votes
Nationals
0 votes

179 votes | Poll has closed

This FanPost does not express the views or opinions of Talking Chop.

Comment 55 comments  |  13 recs  | 

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Acabado muy Bueno

Quite frankly I’m said to see this series end, but what a way to end it!

Love the WAR vs Salary graphs, amazing how it really adds perspective. Also, I knew the Phillies were big spenders but I never really looked at the bottom line. I could not believe they were outspending the Mets, unreal!

Looking forward to the next round!

"I think the Tigers really overpaided here" ... 2/21/2010 by Holty_Panthers_Fan on Johnny Damon signing for $8 Million

by scstrato on Mar 21, 2010 2:05 PM EDT reply actions  

The big difference between the Phillies and the Mets is that the Phillies have spent their money more wisely, with the notable exception of in the bullpen. And thanks!

"Yeah, and I have an enchanted jock strap." -- Karl Karlson

by Jacob Peterson on Mar 21, 2010 11:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

And tbh, bullpens can be a bit of a crapshoot

If Lidge is better, that bullpen looks a whole lot better and the money spent makes more sense.

"If I have asthma, they won't let me scuba. And if I can’t scuba, then what’s this all been about?? What am I working toward??"

by Doghnut on Mar 22, 2010 6:48 AM EDT up reply actions  

Great job!

Always fun stuff to look at, and a great series of posts! I project the Braves to win 92+, which admittedly is in a best-case scenario. It’s good to see numbers that back up what we all kind of assume (the likely win ranges of the teams). We’ll have to remember to revisit at the end of the season to see how these projections panned out.

I can stand behind 92+ because I think the best-case scenario involves proven players maintaining their productiveness and not getting injured (and J-Hey around .280). While this is no guarantee, it seems more plausible than the usual opening day optimism (like hoping Melky becomes a star).

Great job once again!

by someguy1 on Mar 21, 2010 2:10 PM EDT reply actions  

Outstanding Series

Tons of info, thank you for putting all of this together. Looking forward to seeing how it compares to the season, and hoping for a revisit, possibly an All Star break “check-up”.

by bighop on Mar 21, 2010 2:32 PM EDT reply actions  

I’ll try to do a mid-season “check-up.” Thanks!

"Yeah, and I have an enchanted jock strap." -- Karl Karlson

by Jacob Peterson on Mar 21, 2010 11:27 PM EDT up reply actions  

This was your best one yet

Wanna do my homework?

"(Jason Heyward) is like the Grim Reaper -- you know he's going to get you, you just don't know where or when."

by Scott Coleman on Mar 21, 2010 3:31 PM EDT via mobile reply actions  

I'm gonna have to do mine

now that this is over

The Jordan Schafer Fan Club.

by acie4mvp on Mar 21, 2010 9:23 PM EDT up reply actions  

Haha, thanks...

but no thanks.

"Yeah, and I have an enchanted jock strap." -- Karl Karlson

by Jacob Peterson on Mar 21, 2010 11:27 PM EDT up reply actions  

Good work

It’s been fun to follow this. And it’s nice to see the fans validate the feeling that our Bravos have a decent shot this year.

by Weldon on Mar 21, 2010 5:30 PM EDT reply actions  

Awesome work

And I hope you do some more series’ like this during the season. Loved the line: (A projection can’t really be “wrong”, anyway—that’s like saying that a fairy tale is “wrong”.) As an Econ Major, I love stats, especially the value section.

Morton hit Heyward with an offspeed pitch. Early indication is that the baseball survived the impact.

by award6 on Mar 21, 2010 6:26 PM EDT reply actions  

Dude, you did an outstanding job on these. Thank you very much!

"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."

by justincredubil02 on Mar 21, 2010 6:55 PM EDT reply actions  

if you are looking for a job in the journalism field you need to work harder at not doing any homework or using stats, or doing any kind of basic fact checking.

present blog excluded

Heyward,Hanson,and Shaffer r ready now!! Why do you think they havent signed the "right handed bat"?

by fatazfoot on Jan 7, 2009 8:59 PM EST

by Swo12bv on Mar 21, 2010 7:08 PM EDT reply actions  

Craig Kimbrel is our secret weapon over Heyward?

by BravesRaleigh on Mar 21, 2010 7:21 PM EDT reply actions  

Heyward was included in the analysis...

Kimbrel wasn’t, so that makes him secret.

"If I had a little humility, I would be perfect" - Ted Turner

by Little Lady on Mar 21, 2010 8:17 PM EDT up reply actions  

Heyward is no secret

:)

"Yeah, and I have an enchanted jock strap." -- Karl Karlson

by Jacob Peterson on Mar 21, 2010 11:24 PM EDT up reply actions  

haha, what if somehow we kept him an absolute secret. Like some how someway no body knew about him and he just showed up in two weeks and lit Zambrano up.

"Spring Training is the most exciting time that can't end soon enough" - Me

by JKowalek on Mar 23, 2010 9:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

I admire how little WAR you projected for Heyward

I would’ve done like 159. Great series, thanks and I hope you do some more over the season

The Jordan Schafer Fan Club.

by acie4mvp on Mar 21, 2010 9:25 PM EDT reply actions  

Haha,

well I didn’t want to get too crazy there, so I averaged the CHONE projection with the Bill James instead of just using the Bill James (which, as it tends to be, was much more optimistic). Better to underestimate these things.

If I was making a guess personally for J-Hey, I’d say more like 3.5 WAR would be a good middle ground.

"Yeah, and I have an enchanted jock strap." -- Karl Karlson

by Jacob Peterson on Mar 21, 2010 11:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

Blanket thank you

for all the praise, guys. I really enjoyed putting these together and hearing your feedback.

Oh, and I’ll definitely be doing more stuff like this throughout the season. :)

"Yeah, and I have an enchanted jock strap." -- Karl Karlson

by Jacob Peterson on Mar 21, 2010 11:34 PM EDT reply actions  

for those of you keeping track at home…pagnosis is leading the league in “recs” this year…and its not really close

Heyward,Hanson,and Shaffer r ready now!! Why do you think they havent signed the "right handed bat"?

by fatazfoot on Jan 7, 2009 8:59 PM EST

by Swo12bv on Mar 22, 2010 12:14 AM EDT reply actions  

i have him on my fantasy team

"If I have asthma, they won't let me scuba. And if I can’t scuba, then what’s this all been about?? What am I working toward??"

by Doghnut on Mar 22, 2010 6:49 AM EDT up reply actions  

I knew I should have taken him over that jerk justin.

by soup du jour on Mar 22, 2010 11:16 AM EDT up reply actions  

I hate that guy!

"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."

by justincredubil02 on Mar 22, 2010 11:30 AM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

I still can't believe

that the Phillies rotation will be as good as everyone says it will be. Are Blanton and Happ really that good? I just am not convinced. Other than that, I think the fans predictions are pretty good.

I do think that the Braves will compete in the NL East, but the Phillies offense is really hard to beat. I agree with pacgnosis that the Mets rotation looks really bad after Santana as well.

by Andy Braves Fan on Mar 22, 2010 5:06 PM EDT reply actions  

Happ isnt as good as he pitched last year..but he’s also not as bad as most people think…he is very comparable to Kenshin (IMHO) minus the dragon killer thing

and Blanton defies logic…i just don’t know what to think of him..he gets shelled and then pitches great and ends up with decent numbers despite average stuff and control that isnt as good as it needs to be given his stuff…or at least thats my assessment…but in the end he always ends up having a decent year

Heyward,Hanson,and Shaffer r ready now!! Why do you think they havent signed the "right handed bat"?

by fatazfoot on Jan 7, 2009 8:59 PM EST

by Swo12bv on Mar 22, 2010 11:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

Exactly. Happ may be a good pitcher, but last season was too good statistically.

And Blanton… and especially in that park. I just can’t believe he has been this successful.

by Andy Braves Fan on Mar 23, 2010 10:20 AM EDT up reply actions  

I’m with you.

"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."

by justincredubil02 on Mar 23, 2010 10:59 AM EDT up reply actions  

I don’t think anyone thinks Happ is as good as he was last year..outside a few idealistic uninformed Phillies fans.

and I feel like Blanton is like Dice-K in that there’s no way he should be successful but he is every year (more or less)

Heyward,Hanson,and Shaffer r ready now!! Why do you think they havent signed the "right handed bat"?

by fatazfoot on Jan 7, 2009 8:59 PM EST

by Swo12bv on Mar 23, 2010 11:36 AM EDT up reply actions  

A riddle: What do Dice-K and Blanton have in common? They are both pitchers who benefit greatly from having one of the game’s best offenses behind them.

"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."

by justincredubil02 on Mar 23, 2010 11:51 AM EDT up reply actions  

I loved the guy who tried to argue with me saying Dice-K is a better pitcher than Lester. Sure he is, buddy.

"SIGN PUJOLS OR FIRE WREN" ~ Swo12bv

by Smoltz's Beard on Mar 29, 2010 12:27 PM EDT up reply actions  

he has more wins…duh he’s obviously better…. plus, he costs more so that market says he’s more valauble

Heyward,Hanson,and Shaffer r ready now!! Why do you think they havent signed the "right handed bat"?

by fatazfoot on Jan 7, 2009 8:59 PM EST

by Swo12bv on Mar 29, 2010 7:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

Good comparison.

I think the fans agree, since they project KK and Happ for almost the same WAR.

"Yeah, and I have an enchanted jock strap." -- Karl Karlson

by Jacob Peterson on Mar 23, 2010 11:01 AM EDT up reply actions  

Fantastic. Our #5 pitcher is equal to their #3.

"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."

by justincredubil02 on Mar 23, 2010 11:08 AM EDT up reply actions  

Take a look at these two lines from last year...

Happ – 6.45 K/9, 3.04 BB/9, .270 BABIP (league average for a flyball pitcher is .300), 38.4% GB, 42% FB. The Braves have a pitcher with very almost identical peripheral numbers (6.36 K/9, 3.14 BB/9, .273 BABIP, 42.9% GB, 39.1% FB), but it’s not KK. The only major difference between JJ and Happs peripherals is their HR/9, which are 1.08 vs 0.63.

Who cares how bad the Bay deal will look in 2013, the world is going to end in 2012 anyway

by Stephen Schmidt on Mar 23, 2010 12:32 PM EDT up reply actions  

But those numbers from Happ were not in line with his minor league track record, IIRC.

"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."

by justincredubil02 on Mar 23, 2010 12:47 PM EDT up reply actions  

There is only one of those numbers in both players case that doesn't match up with their minor league numbers.

In both cases the BABIP is well below what their minor and major league track records indivcate is sustainable. Just look at the minor league numbers for both Jurrjens and Happ. They really have very similar peripherals, and their sample sizes are both small enough to believe that their BABIP will likely be far closer to league average in the future. While Jurrjens is more likely to be succesful due to a better HR rate, they are both likely due for some similar amounts of regression this year due to unsustainable BABIP’s and LOB%.

Who cares how bad the Bay deal will look in 2013, the world is going to end in 2012 anyway

by Stephen Schmidt on Mar 23, 2010 1:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

we have more data on Jurrjens to suggest his numbers aren’t lucky…im not saying he’s not due to regression…but to compare them is unfair, bc Jurrjens sample is much larger and he may be working below what is considered average in terms of BABiP

Heyward,Hanson,and Shaffer r ready now!! Why do you think they havent signed the "right handed bat"?

by fatazfoot on Jan 7, 2009 8:59 PM EST

by Swo12bv on Mar 23, 2010 4:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

I don't know that I'd agree with that

He had a .311 BABIP in 188 innings in 2008, and a .273 BABIP in 215 in 2009 (his career minor league line is .308). Other than that, I’d say his peripherals from 2008 were actually better than 2009, and his ERA was right in line with his FIP. Jurrjens is a very good pitcher, but if prople are getting on Happ for getting lucky last year they really need to be fair in their assesment of JJ. Going forward he’ll likely be the better pitcher of the two, but one year of a far below average BABIP doesn’t really constitute a pattern.

Who cares how bad the Bay deal will look in 2013, the world is going to end in 2012 anyway

by Stephen Schmidt on Mar 23, 2010 5:11 PM EDT up reply actions  

all I’m saying is since the sample is larger its more predictive…its just a statistical claim…I think Jurjjens is probably a sub 4 ERA pitcher who will get by with his control and being precise and getting groundballs (a poor man’s Maddux if you will…a very poor man’s, which is a praise to Maddux not a slight to JJ)

and I think JA Happ is probably similar but slightly worse…maybe a tenth or two tenths of a run worse over a season in ERA… but with one season of data it is difficult to predict.

I don’t mean to imply that he will maintain that 273 BABiP or that there is any sustainable trend, just that we can be more sure of Jurjjens 3.21 ERA than we can of Happ’s 3.21 ERA (ironic its the same number)…and that its feasible that Jurrjens can maintain his low 3 ERA if he continues to buck the trend in regards to his peripherals.

FInally, Jurrjens also beats out Happ in FIP, tERA, and xFIP…which gives greater credence to the idea that Jurrjens will be the better pitcher, which is somethin u have admitted

Heyward,Hanson,and Shaffer r ready now!! Why do you think they havent signed the "right handed bat"?

by fatazfoot on Jan 7, 2009 8:59 PM EST

by Swo12bv on Mar 23, 2010 8:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

I don't agree that their minor league stats are similar.

Jurrjens’ minor league record is definitely superior. Outside of 12 starts in AA in 2006, Happ was never more than slightly above average in the minors. Jurrjens’ minor league stats are by and large fantastic, and actually extremely consistent with what he did last year.

The biggest reason I think Jair can improve on last year’s performance (in other words, have a FIP in the 3.5 range, with an ERA to match) is his age. He’s only 24 and should only get better.

Happ, on the other hand, is 27. Last year was likely the best he’ll ever be in terms of true talent level. Which means that in addition to a regression to his FIP, he may also be dealing with a declining skill set. I would be absolutely shocked if Happ pitches anywhere near as well as JJ this year, injuries notwithstanding.

"Yeah, and I have an enchanted jock strap." -- Karl Karlson

by Jacob Peterson on Mar 23, 2010 11:48 PM EDT up reply actions  

Happ is a guy that had traditional stats that were way out of line with his FIP, xFIP, and tERA.

Blanton probably pitched about to his talent level. He doesn’t walk very many batters, and his BABIP is right where it should be. Blanton is very much like Bronson Arroyo or Jon Garland…nothing special, but he manages to limit damage very well.

Who cares how bad the Bay deal will look in 2013, the world is going to end in 2012 anyway

by Stephen Schmidt on Mar 23, 2010 12:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

Wow.

You win the “backhanded compliment of the day” award.

"Yeah, and I have an enchanted jock strap." -- Karl Karlson

by Jacob Peterson on Mar 23, 2010 11:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

My 2010 Simulations

Using an actual game simulator which can take things like actual strength of schedule into account came up with similar numbers for the NL East leaders. I ran every single game for every single team using their actual 2010 schedules 10,000 times. Then added up the win expectancies from each game to come up with a “mean” win expectancy for each team. The simulator is solid, but the way I modelled playing time still needs a little work. Nonetheless, it was the same model for each team. Here is how the 2010 NL East standings played out.

NL East
1. Atlanta 90.3 – 71.7
2. Phillies 90.1 – 71.9
3. Marlins 81.2 – 80.8
4. Mets 75.7 – 86.3
5. Nationals 74.9 – 87.1

I think #1 and #2 are well within the margin of error to call it a statistical toss-up.
vr, Xei

by Xeifrank on Mar 25, 2010 5:45 PM EDT reply actions  

But, the Phillies are the ZOMG! best team outside of the NY/BOS area!

"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."

by justincredubil02 on Mar 25, 2010 6:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

yeah that must be wrong

bc we’re projected to get .2 more wins…

"If I have asthma, they won't let me scuba. And if I can’t scuba, then what’s this all been about?? What am I working toward??"

by Doghnut on Mar 25, 2010 8:37 PM EDT up reply actions  

Another great read.

"SIGN PUJOLS OR FIRE WREN" ~ Swo12bv

by Smoltz's Beard on Mar 29, 2010 12:28 PM EDT reply actions  

We’re like the Rays in the AL East except there’s only one team that’s great. Lots of depth and great contract decisions. I think that means a wild card is pretty certain, although I’m picking us for division champs.

Braves – 96-66 Division Champs
Phillies – 93-69* Wild Card
Marlins – 84-78
Mets – 82-80
Nationals – 68-94

I’m such a homer…

by The Real Me on Mar 30, 2010 7:38 PM EDT reply actions  

I think the JJ/Hanson/Heyward/McCann HoF post gave it away.

"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."

by justincredubil02 on Mar 30, 2010 11:17 PM EDT up reply actions  

we are all trying to forget you said Javy

Heyward,Hanson,and Shaffer r ready now!! Why do you think they havent signed the "right handed bat"?

by fatazfoot on Jan 7, 2009 8:59 PM EST

by Swo12bv on Mar 31, 2010 7:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

Now that everybody’s blasting me I think I wish I never said him too haha I thought these were braves fans I mean geez I want keith lockhart in the hall

by The Real Me on Mar 31, 2010 11:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

Fanhood doesn’t have to be blind or ignorant – not saying that you are, but wanting to put Keith Lockhart in the HoF is.

"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."

by justincredubil02 on Mar 31, 2010 11:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

definitely a joke… lets just say if lockhart got in I’d pop the champagne in a minute…

by The Real Me on Mar 31, 2010 11:48 PM EDT up reply actions  

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