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When should Heyward play -- Analysis

After watching Jason Heyward's spring, many (including myself) have been thinking it would be a good idea to have him start on opening day.  This of course starts the debate about how the financial implications compare vs. how the team will perform with / without Heyward on it.  I've put some numbers down to help myself decide what I think about the situation and I thought I'd share.

For those who don't know, baseball salary rules for young players work as follows.  Players with less than 3 years of service time basically make the league minimum, which for my calculations I will assume is $400k.  Players with more than 3 years of service time but less than 6 years of service time are "arbitration eligible".  The arbitration process allows a player to earn a salary that is a fraction of his "market value".  Players with more than 6 years of service can become free agents, and agree to any contract.  In the three years of arbitration, the process is supposed to produce salaries that are 40%, 60%, and 80% of the "market value" in arb years 1, 2, and 3.

A wrinkle in the arbitration rules is that a "year" is defined as a certain number of days (172 to be exact), and a player must have at least that many days to get credit for 1 year.  Thus, if a player accrues 171 days of service time in a season that does not count as "1 year".  A typical baseball season has ~180 days, so getting to 1 year of service is possible without starting opening day.  To prevent abuse of this system, MLB rules allow the top 17% of players with at least 2 but less than 3 years of service time to become arbitration eligible.  These players are called "Super 2's", and go through arbitration 4 times instead of 3.  In the past, the cutoff for super 2 status is typically in the range of 128 - 140 days of service time.  Counting forward from the start of the season, this means that players called up after June 1 are typically "safe" from Super 2 status.

That's a lot of words, so lets use a specific example; Jason Heyward.  In the example that follows, I've made some assumptions in the calculations: 

First, I've assumed that Jason Heyward will go to salary arbitration every year he can, and receive exactly the "proper" amount - i.e. 40% / 60% / 80% of his "market value" in the arbitration process.  The splits for super 2's are harder to find, so I've used 30% / 50% / 70% / 90% as a basis.  It is straightforward to redo the calcs with any basis you like, so feel free to change it and comment below.

Second, I need to establish what Jason's "market value" is to project his salary for each of the possibilities.  The actual process does not use WAR, but that's what I use here.  I have assumed that Jason Heyward will play at a 5 WAR pace every single year.  Now, all we need is $ / WAR, which was about $4.5M / WAR last year.  You are free to use whatever WAR projection / cost you like, as you'll see I don't think it changes the conclusions at all.

Here's the year by year breakdown for three cases, with service time and salary listed:  starting Opening Day, calling Jason up June 1, or calling Jason up ~April 20, so he just becomes a Super 2.

            League Min     0.4                                          

            WAR               5                                             

            $ / WAR          4.5M                           

Year    Opening Day               Non-Super 2                Super 2           

2010    1yr       $0.4                 < 1yr    $0.4                 < 1yr    $0.4

2011    2yr       $0.4                 1+ yr    $0.4                 1+ yr    $0.4

2012    3yr       $0.4                 2+ yr    $0.4                 2+ yr    $0.4

2013    Arb 1   $9.0                 3+ yr    $0.4                 Arb 1   $6.8

2014    Arb 2   $13.5               Arb 1   $9.0                 Arb 2   $11.3

2015    Arb 3   $18.0               Arb 2   $13.5               Arb 3   $15.8

2016    FA       $22.5               Arb 3   $18.0               Arb 4   $20.3

2017    FA                               FA                               FA      

TOTAL           $64.2                           $42.1                           $55.2

 

Looking at the table above, one thing is clear:  having Jason accrue a full year of service time in 2010 is a bad financial decision.  The penalty for this is the difference in cost between his market value salary and the league minimum (or Arb 1 year salary for Super 2).  For a player of Jason's potential, this is a lot of money.

Secondly, the "penalty" for letting a player hit Super 2 splits the difference between the opening day and June 1 time frames in this example.  I'd say the "minimum penalty" would be a scenario where the arbitration targets are 20/40/60/80%, in which case the total difference is about $4M.  Again, I'd love to see some "real" numbers here rather than the 4 fractions I've arbitrarily chosen.

So, now that we understand the financial impact, what about the impact to the team that Jason brings when he's playing?  In my opinion, there is a trap that many people fall into here, and it starts along the lines of "If the Braves finish X games out of first / wild card at the end of the year, then you'll regret not having Heyward up the entire time".  People then assume that the difference in games is certainly made up by having Heyward in the lineup.  The fact of the matter is that there is no way to evaluate game-by-game how a player will contribute - i.e whether Heyward could make up those 2 games that the Braves lost in April - May when someone else was playing RF.  The best method that I'm aware of is to calculate the player WAR, and pro-rate that contribution over the time period of interest.  Then, take the difference in what Heyward would contribute and what his replacement (Cabrera / Hinske / Diaz / other) would contribute and see how many "wins" are at stake.

For example, lets now assume Heyward will produce 6 WAR if he plays every single game this year.  If we assume the season is 6 months long, then that is 1 WAR / month.  Let's now assume that whoever plays RF if not Heyward will produce 1.5 WAR (0.25 WAR / month) if they played every single game this year.  Again, pick whatever numbers you like.  Thus:

Heyward plays every day:  6 WAR from RF for the year

Heyward plays starting June 1:  4.5 WAR total from RF for the year

Heyward plays starting mid-April:  5.6 WAR from RF for the year

If we take the differences in each scenario, we find that Heyward as a Super 2 only costs the Braves 0.5 game.  Heyward called up June 1 costs the Braves 1.5 games.  Thus, if the Braves finish 2 or more games out of a playoff spot, having Heyward around vs. not does not swing the stakes in the Braves favor in this example.  If Heyward plays at less than 6 WAR and / or if the replacement RF plays at better than 1.5 WAR, then Heyward's presence / absence makes even less of an impact on the Braves postseason chances.

Obviously, players don't contribute in a linear fashion as indicated in the argument above - a really bad April / May for the replacement vs. an unbelievably hot Heyward in the same time frame, for example, might make the total win difference higher. 

As a Braves fan, I simply cannot justify letting Heyward start opening day.  To me, the decision is Super 2 vs. non-Super 2, and based on Jason's spring, I think the Super 2 route is probably the right way to go.  You give up some $ later on, but not nearly as much as opening day, and you minimize your chance that not having Heyward all year long costs you a playoff spot. 

If you've made it this far, I'll end with this:  another possibility that I haven't included is that Jason can be signed to a long term contract sometime just before arbitration eligibility (think Brian McCann, Ryan Braun, Evan Longoria).  Players usually give up money by doing this, but they gain the security of having a guaranteed contract.  The team also gains cost certainty.  In some cases, the total figure could be less than the middle column listed above!  This possibility is the best case scenario in my opinion, as the team retains control of Heyward for as long as possible, gets the most playing time from him, and gets him at the minimum amount.

Poll
When should Jason Heyward be added to the 25 man roster?
Opening Day
97 votes
June 1st (avoid Super Two)
16 votes
~April 20th (Super Two)
40 votes

153 votes | Poll has closed

1 recs  |  Comment 156 comments |

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As a Mets fan, I think the smart move is to send him down for two weeks.

Having free agency looming after 2016 as opposed to 2015 Is worth livinf with Melky for 8 or 9 games. That said, I’m hoping Wren has him up opening day.

Pinella: Where th f*ck was that pitch at?
Ump: Lou, don't you know that you're not supposed to end a sentence with a preposition?
Pinella: Where the f*ck was that pitch at, a$$h*le?

by Schmidtxc on Mar 17, 2010 7:53 PM EDT reply actions  

if this wasnt the internet i would shake ur hand…you do a great job of commenting on a rival blog and (generally) not gettin into stupid arguments…and you seem rational, which is always appreciated

Basically, sir despite being a Mets fan your seem like a pretty good guy and I appreciate that

Obviously this comment has more to do with ur previous comments than this one here as there isnt a ton of substance going on here

Heyward,Hanson,and Shaffer r ready now!! Why do you think they havent signed the "right handed bat"?

by fatazfoot on Jan 7, 2009 8:59 PM EST

by Swo12bv on Mar 17, 2010 8:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

Thanks...I appreciate the comment.

I actually came over here today trying to see what you guys had to say about Elijah Dukes getting cut, as I thought he’d be a nice piece for the Braves to add to the mix. I’m kinda surprised I haven’t seen any chatter about it.

Pinella: Where th f*ck was that pitch at?
Ump: Lou, don't you know that you're not supposed to end a sentence with a preposition?
Pinella: Where the f*ck was that pitch at, a$$h*le?

by Schmidtxc on Mar 17, 2010 8:54 PM EDT up reply actions  

Checking the other blogs

Just about every team blog is like, “wow what potential, and we can get him for nothing!” I’ve got to believe that there’s more going on than what is public now. Some team will take a shot, but at this point its like buying a lottery ticket — “wow, I could win a million dollars for the price of a $1 lottery ticket? How can I lose!”

by fphjr01 on Mar 17, 2010 8:56 PM EDT up reply actions  

he really is an interesting case…it seems (and i stress seems)…that he has put his personal problems behind him and is focusing on baseball now…but maybe thats not true…the guy can play baseball and he could be very valuable if some team can get the Milton Bradley out of him

Heyward,Hanson,and Shaffer r ready now!! Why do you think they havent signed the "right handed bat"?

by fatazfoot on Jan 7, 2009 8:59 PM EST

by Swo12bv on Mar 17, 2010 9:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

When you buy a $1 million lottery ticket for $1, the lottery company is able to sell them because the chances or winning are closer to 1 in 1,500,000. So, if you bought 1,500,000 lottery tickets for $1, you’ll win, on average, one time and the lottery company makes $500,000 overall.

With Dukes, you’ve got a $1 million lottery ticket that only costs $1, but the chances of winning are much rosier than 1 in 1,000,000, so it’s an efficient move and you make it every time.

by PWHjort on Mar 18, 2010 12:23 PM EDT up reply actions  

I made a passing reference to it in the Fanshot about it, but other than that little FS, there hasn’t been anything.

I want to echo Swo’s comment above though. You are a good poster – even though we did have that one disagreement that one time.

"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."

by justincredubil02 on Mar 17, 2010 9:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think that's to be expected when Braves fans anf Mets fans attempt to discuss baseball

It’s always interesting getting other fans point of views about both the Mets and their teams (in this case the Braves). If nothing else, it gives some more perspective that I don’t get watching the Braves 19 times a year or so and checking out the boxscores which is always a good thing to have.

Pinella: Where th f*ck was that pitch at?
Ump: Lou, don't you know that you're not supposed to end a sentence with a preposition?
Pinella: Where the f*ck was that pitch at, a$$h*le?

by Schmidtxc on Mar 17, 2010 9:14 PM EDT up reply actions  

Clubhouse Cancer.

We have a very very good looking team right now. No sense in blowing it on a younger Milton Bradley. Idc how quick and strong he is. Stay away from ATL Elijah.

MATT DIAZ IS THE F**K*NG MAN.
They made me change my signature...

by nick9314 on Mar 17, 2010 9:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

Elijah hasn’t done anything bad in years. Let’s all move on, because apparently, he has.

"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."

by justincredubil02 on Mar 17, 2010 10:29 PM EDT up reply actions  

Um, I’m pretty sure he showed up an entire FIVE minutes late one time because he was just too busy “making kids happy.” You call that nothing? He’s a cancer.

The third-base umpire ran into the outfield and retrieved the biggest chunk. "It's a f***in' potato."

by alligatorimpersonator on Mar 17, 2010 11:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

well played

Heyward,Hanson,and Shaffer r ready now!! Why do you think they havent signed the "right handed bat"?

by fatazfoot on Jan 7, 2009 8:59 PM EST

by Swo12bv on Mar 18, 2010 1:15 AM EDT up reply actions  

Oh man, I always thought you were a Philly fan! (Due to your name…Mike Schmidt)

by soup du jour on Mar 18, 2010 12:43 PM EDT up reply actions  

Mike Schmidt was a little before my day...

I was always a big Jason Schmidt fan, espescially when he was with the Pirates. I was pretty psyched when the Mets drafted Casey Schmidt last year as well, but since he went unsigned I just got my hopes up for nothing.

Pinella: Where th f*ck was that pitch at?
Ump: Lou, don't you know that you're not supposed to end a sentence with a preposition?
Pinella: Where the f*ck was that pitch at, a$$h*le?

by Schmidtxc on Mar 18, 2010 1:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

Damn!

This is a subject that trends me toward extreme violent outbursts. Bashing of holes in walls. Heaving of large pieces of furniture through small windows.

As a Braves fan, I simply cannot justify letting Heyward not start opening day. As a fan, I view the sacred trust of management to put the best possible team on the field and maximize the opportunity to win each and every one of the 162 games.

WTF!!??

by fandave on Mar 17, 2010 8:41 PM EDT reply actions  

do u have any idea how short sighted that is…those of us who disagree with you and don’t think he should start opening (notwithstanding the fact he’s played 50 games above A ball) would prefer to have Heyward for an extra year.

The cost to have Heyward for 6 years is about the same for 7 years….how could u not want to have him for a full extra year under team control at the cost of a couple of weeks in AAA (where he will inevitably grow as a player).

This debate has nothing to do with Heyward being ready or not. It has to do with being financially intelligent. For those that say, "we can just sign him to a long-term deal to avoid arbitration)…there’s absolutely reason to think he’s going to do this…some players sign those contracts and others don’t (i.e. Frenchy…who in terms of being a GA native and local star and young up and commer is in the same spot as Heyward, obviously Heyward is the better player but that has nothing to do with whether Heyward would sign a contract)

There’s no reason to not hold him out off the team for a couple weeks…And I take a certain amount of humberage with the assertion that the players who would take Heyward’s spot would only accrue 1.5 WAR.

Melky is projected for a 3.3 WAR and had 1.7 last year in a tougher division and tougher league.
there’s very good reason to believe that Heyward’s replacement could just as easily be worth 3 WAR in a full season…which further elucidates the fact that 2 weeks of Heywardless Braves will be insignificant in this year’s outcome…but starting him from day one could have a very detrimental effect on the Braves long term success

Again…this is not a conversation about Heyward being ready…for all intents and purposes I will agree he is ready and will be a top 50 hitter from day one…

The organization’s goal is not to just simply put the best product on the field at all times…its goal is to win now but not at the risk of sacrificing the stability of the team in the future, which is exactly what it would be doing by letting Heyward start the season on the big league roster

Heyward,Hanson,and Shaffer r ready now!! Why do you think they havent signed the "right handed bat"?

by fatazfoot on Jan 7, 2009 8:59 PM EST

by Swo12bv on Mar 17, 2010 9:00 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

I <3 you.

"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."

by justincredubil02 on Mar 17, 2010 9:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

huH? new metrics comment scoring is confusing.

by fandave on Mar 17, 2010 9:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

I agree with you 100%, but voted for Opening Day. I think between Chipper and Mac, Bobby not being totally gone, and Heyward being local, Heyward will follow the Mac route and sign a long term deal. I hope.

"Batting second and playing shortstop-he's Cuban. Yeah, his name's Pablo...no, eh, Yunel Escobar, sorry"

by GoBravesNY on Mar 17, 2010 9:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

I believe he should and he will, especially when the Braves make a generous offer that says we want you to be a career member of the team. If everything stays on track, it should happen.

by fandave on Mar 17, 2010 10:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

exactly, and I’m 100% confident the FO will do it, which is why I said opening day

"Batting second and playing shortstop-he's Cuban. Yeah, his name's Pablo...no, eh, Yunel Escobar, sorry"

by GoBravesNY on Mar 17, 2010 10:38 PM EDT up reply actions  

Worst case scenario

He pulls an A-Gon and we can’t afford him. Can you imagine what we could get in a trade.

That aside, I think he will become a very rich man playing for the Braves, I can see him doing like McCann and Chipper, because he has a head on his shoulders. He will see himself surrounded by quality people, not just quality ball players. Heyward is not just a great prospect, he’s got his eyes open and seems to know good from bad. My favorite part of the Braves org is not the string of division championships, it’s the attitude that assholes are not really welcome.

by bighop on Mar 17, 2010 10:38 PM EDT up reply actions  

if he has his eyes open then he’ll realize that barring injury he has substantially better chance of making monye on the open market and not agreeing to any kind of contract…he could also play his way into bigger money through arbitration.

Heyward,Hanson,and Shaffer r ready now!! Why do you think they havent signed the "right handed bat"?

by fatazfoot on Jan 7, 2009 8:59 PM EST

by Swo12bv on Mar 18, 2010 1:17 AM EDT up reply actions  

Money talks huh

Since money is the be all end all, maybe you are right. On the other hand, if $15 mil and happy is better than $20 mil and miserable, maybe you are wrong. I don’t know if this guy will hang around in Atlanta at an affordable, yet massive pay rate. You don’t know if he will leave for an extra dollar. McCann chose a team friendly deal that makes him rich. Frenchy chose not to sign. What’s the difference between them? Chipper chose less money and better teammates, how do you know Heyward will not do that also? And I’m pretty sure I accounted for his possible greed in the 1st line, trade and reap.

by bighop on Mar 18, 2010 8:23 AM EDT up reply actions  

im not saying he wont sign a deal…im just saying there’s a better a chance (that is relatively high) that he won’t sign…I assume he would…if it was me and i knew i could get locked up for that time period i would…45 garaunteed is the same as a possible 60M (becuase theres a chance at significantly less)…but thats me…I don’t know what Heyward is thinking.

Heyward,Hanson,and Shaffer r ready now!! Why do you think they havent signed the "right handed bat"?

by fatazfoot on Jan 7, 2009 8:59 PM EST

by Swo12bv on Mar 18, 2010 3:32 PM EDT up reply actions  

And also to factor in is the time cost of money...

he could make less than $1.5m over the next 3 years as a minimum salary player. Or if we sign him long term buying out future years, does the ability to make say $5m these next three years allow for more money to be made as he invests it now and can reap those rewards instead of waiting for the future pay day.

We can argue points all day, but it’s very fluid, and the only one who can answer most of these questions is the man himself on what he values.

by Mr. Sanchez on Mar 18, 2010 3:50 PM EDT up reply actions  

We can argue points all day, but it’s very fluid, and the only one who can answer most of these questions is the man himself on what he values.

thats basically my point…everyone is assuming he will sign a long term deal, but that may not be what he values most, no one knows what he values most…so its prudent to hedge your bets and expect the worse (him wanting to test the FA market and not sign a long term deal) and go from there..then expect the best and lose an entire year of team control for a measly two weeks at the start of a season

Heyward,Hanson,and Shaffer r ready now!! Why do you think they havent signed the "right handed bat"?

by fatazfoot on Jan 7, 2009 8:59 PM EST

by Swo12bv on Mar 18, 2010 11:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

These two things...

“test the FA market and not sign a long term deal” aren’t mutually exclusive. He can sign a long term deal that takes him through the arb years. Of course, how long those arb years last depends on your two weeks, two months, opening day debate.

by Mr. Sanchez on Mar 19, 2010 8:08 AM EDT up reply actions  

ya ya ya…i misspoke a little there

Heyward,Hanson,and Shaffer r ready now!! Why do you think they havent signed the "right handed bat"?

by fatazfoot on Jan 7, 2009 8:59 PM EST

by Swo12bv on Mar 19, 2010 12:22 PM EDT up reply actions  

Ultimately, for most players (and most high income people in the world, generally), the end all and be all is not absolutely, greedily maximizing the the amount of money they may possibly, theoretically, be able to earn in the future. Perhaps that is the way you personally think and you’re projecting that thinking onto others, to include right now Jason Heyward.

by fandave on Mar 18, 2010 9:27 AM EDT up reply actions  

I forgot that most pro athletes do it for the fans.

"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."

by justincredubil02 on Mar 18, 2010 9:37 AM EDT up reply actions  

As always, thanks so much for being a massive wise ass.
And the other thing is that I think it is pretty stupid – almost to the point of laughability – for a group of blogging fans to seriously debate the minutiae of this or any giant corporation’s budgetary strategies.

by fandave on Mar 18, 2010 9:50 AM EDT up reply actions  

The only laughable part here is that you for some reason think that pro athletes are not about the money. You said the majority of them are not driven by the dollar. I strongly disagree. There are a few exceptions, of course, but the majority are in it for the paycheck – at least, at the professional level.

"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."

by justincredubil02 on Mar 18, 2010 10:53 AM EDT up reply actions  

At the professional level,...

they get paid, that’s part of it. It’s not like we’re wanting him to play for free, for the love of the game and the fans. But for every Tex you have wanting just the most money, you get a Chipper or Maddux who will turn down that biggest offer for somewhere they like better. If Heyward is what he should be, he’ll make make 9 figures in his career, be it in Atlanta, pinstripes, racist Boston, LA, or wherever he wants to make it. At that level of pay, may as well pick the place you like best and where you most want to play and live.

by Mr. Sanchez on Mar 18, 2010 11:33 AM EDT up reply actions  

Exactly. Lots of players have lots of considerations. Winning is a big one, for example. Being with a quality organization. Not being displaced, having to move around to new areas of the country, likely mulptile times, and having to establish new homes, friends, etc.

by fandave on Mar 18, 2010 11:46 AM EDT up reply actions  

they love the game they play there’s no question…

I’m in law school…i love the law (kinda)…but that doesnt mean i wont seek out the best opportunities possible including more money…obviously there are other concerns…and we don’t know how heavily those other concerns weigh on Heyward

Heyward,Hanson,and Shaffer r ready now!! Why do you think they havent signed the "right handed bat"?

by fatazfoot on Jan 7, 2009 8:59 PM EST

by Swo12bv on Mar 18, 2010 3:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

But on that note Swo...

and as a fellow lawyer, I ask you this.

Are you simply available to the highest bidder in dollar amount alone? When considering offers, do you look at things like cost of living, where and who you’ll be working with, family and other outside influences?

With some people, I assume the highest dollar amount offered is what they accept. With some people though, the issue is not that simple and other factors are included in the decision in addition to money offered.

by Mr. Sanchez on Mar 18, 2010 3:47 PM EDT up reply actions  

so as a lawyer, are you thinking that you might possibly want to try to promote social betterment, right wrongs, or engage in pro bono activities on behalf of the less fortunate; or, alternatively, will you simply sell out to the highest corporate bidder, regardless of what you might feel is more moral or ethical, or just as a matter of personal preference, what you would rather be doing with your degree?

by fandave on Mar 18, 2010 6:38 PM EDT up reply actions  

if ur being a condescending ass…blow it out ur ass.

Ill answer both posters now…

In re Mr. Sanchez…I would consider all aspects of a potential move…but im also overly rational…so rational that it is often to my detriment, because i overthink certain decisions. I would consider taxes, cost of living, weather, where the best bbq is located…is there a publix nearby…how far do i have to go to get moe mondays? but just because thats what i would do does not mean that what everyone would do…Scott Boras is considered a really good agent (face it he gets the job done)..but he seemingly looks at total dollar value and doesnt care about anything else. I’m not trying to say that what i would do is what Heyward would/ought to do…Im simply saying everyon’e decision making paradigm is different and we shouldn’t jump to conclusions about individuals wants and needs because of a rosy picture we have of our beloved braves players…a large majority of them, probably don’t love the Braves as much as we do.

In Re Fandave…I am all about the social betterment..there are tons of inequities that i would love to fix all by myself, but that won’t happen…I often do pro bono work..if u want a list I’ll give it to you…as far as selling out to the highest corporate bidder, i will take the job that most benefits my goals/aspirations/ and first and foremost benefits my family. If that is with a corporation then so be it…if it is with a single partner in a small rural law office in hobunk, NE then great…I am firmly guided by my morals…I would love to be in a position where i can rest on my morals above all other things…but often that isnt the case..and more importantly thats not my job as a lawyer…lawyers frequently need to defend people who he or she beleives is a complete dousche (think about public defenders, they end up defending the freedoms of some of the lowest filth in our soceity and I am unbelievably envious of those people, becuase its not something i could do)

Honestly, I would love to represent my friends (half of whom are aspiring doctors) and then retire by 35 and fish for the rest of my life…unfortunately thats probably not an option

Heyward,Hanson,and Shaffer r ready now!! Why do you think they havent signed the "right handed bat"?

by fatazfoot on Jan 7, 2009 8:59 PM EST

by Swo12bv on Mar 18, 2010 11:17 PM EDT up reply actions  

Don’t you know that it is apparently evil to try to make the most money that you can?

Also, don’t forget that you and I are supposed to represent each other.

And yes, having a Publix nearby is an absolute must. I have learned this since living in Texas.

"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."

by justincredubil02 on Mar 18, 2010 11:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

how r u gonna represent me…ur job is to make sure i dont get bombed…u do that and i will represent u in the manner fitting you (none at all)

:)

Heyward,Hanson,and Shaffer r ready now!! Why do you think they havent signed the "right handed bat"?

by fatazfoot on Jan 7, 2009 8:59 PM EST

by Swo12bv on Mar 18, 2010 11:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

Touche’

"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."

by justincredubil02 on Mar 18, 2010 11:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

I was not being condescending and I was not trying to be personal.

The fact is that as a law student, you have choices that you will be making soon. If you happen to be at a top school, make law review and graduate in the top 5% of your class, your choices will essentially be unlimited.

Your response reflects that your decisions will be guided by multiple factors and considerations, rather than to simply “try to make the most money that you can” (to quote your buddy). You state that "first and foremost " you will be looking at your family’s best interests, which is great, but say – for example – you took a position in big corporate firm requiring 2600 billable hours/year, which would require you to spend 80 – 100 hours/ week in the office and/or be constantly traveling; such that you pretty much would never even see your family and be so exhausted all the time, you would have no emotional energy left over for family life?

Again, my point is that you, me, Jason Heyward and everybody else have to make decisions based on multiple considerations that we have to place in some priority, according to our own personal values, the overall circumstances of our lives and the legitimate options in front of us.

And it ain’t just all about the money. Not for everyone.

by fandave on Mar 19, 2010 10:20 AM EDT up reply actions  

i dont disagree but people seem to be weihgin the considerations for Heyward which is impossible to do … we have no clue how Heyward weighs competing interests

its just as likely he signs a long term deal as it is he decides to go through the abritration process

Heyward,Hanson,and Shaffer r ready now!! Why do you think they havent signed the "right handed bat"?

by fatazfoot on Jan 7, 2009 8:59 PM EST

by Swo12bv on Mar 19, 2010 12:23 PM EDT up reply actions  

yeah, maybe.
but to state the obvious: the Braves’ braintrust has much better reconnaissance based on real information than anyone here at TC, and are able to formulate a real operational strategy to maximize the opportunity to secure Heyward as a cornerstone of the franchise.

by fandave on Mar 19, 2010 1:06 PM EDT up reply actions  

but doesnt the risk that he doesnt sign a long term deal through his arb phase…require the organization to hedge its best and plan for the worst case scenario…especially when the cost is only 2 weeks of Melky in RF everyday (considering Melky could be a 3 win player this year in full time duty)…this seems like a negligible cost considering the risk

Heyward,Hanson,and Shaffer r ready now!! Why do you think they havent signed the "right handed bat"?

by fatazfoot on Jan 7, 2009 8:59 PM EST

by Swo12bv on Mar 19, 2010 5:14 PM EDT up reply actions  

Common sense FTW!

"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."

by justincredubil02 on Mar 19, 2010 5:56 PM EDT up reply actions  

best

bets

Heyward,Hanson,and Shaffer r ready now!! Why do you think they havent signed the "right handed bat"?

by fatazfoot on Jan 7, 2009 8:59 PM EST

by Swo12bv on Mar 19, 2010 5:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

Melky in right

doesn’t bug me as much as Nate in center. But he’ll be there whether Heyward starts in early April or late April.

by bighop on Mar 19, 2010 6:02 PM EDT up reply actions  

ya thats a whole nother argument…it doesnt really bother me because we don’t have a better replacement

Heyward,Hanson,and Shaffer r ready now!! Why do you think they havent signed the "right handed bat"?

by fatazfoot on Jan 7, 2009 8:59 PM EST

by Swo12bv on Mar 19, 2010 6:14 PM EDT up reply actions  

No. For all the reasons discussed and actually some others that haven’t even been touched upon yet.
But more importantly:
Isn’t it pretty obvious that Bobby Cox has made up his mind that the young man needs to be in the lineup from Day 1?
And didn’t Frank Wren commit pre-ST to the line that the young man would be given every opportunity to make the team; and since actual performance on the field should actually count for something in light of such a commitment, wouldn’t Wren be absolutely low down stinkin’ reneging, like to the max, if he now adopted the we may save some money six years from now analysis and sent the young man up I-85?
And, what would it say to the frackin’ team about management’s desire to win – especially in light of our HOF team spokesman making such a strong, clarion call endorsement just last week?

by fandave on Mar 19, 2010 6:24 PM EDT up reply actions  

It is a business. Of all people, the players know this.

"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."

by justincredubil02 on Mar 19, 2010 6:27 PM EDT up reply actions  

I’m thinkin’ they’d be bummed and it could be a really, really bad karma thing placing a dark pall on our championship season.

by fandave on Mar 19, 2010 7:43 PM EDT up reply actions  

if ur best argument is that the team will have bad karma…you sir are severely lacking in effective bullets

Heyward,Hanson,and Shaffer r ready now!! Why do you think they havent signed the "right handed bat"?

by fatazfoot on Jan 7, 2009 8:59 PM EST

by Swo12bv on Mar 20, 2010 12:00 AM EDT up reply actions  

Madam, I was responding directly to your buddy, who seemingly suggested that a demotion of the young man would have no impact on morale in the clubhouse – being something which I personally consider very important. I believe the said implication is likely incorrect.

As to effective bullets, I have been unimpressed with your argumnets too.

by fandave on Mar 20, 2010 8:17 AM EDT up reply actions  

How can he be “demoted” to “AAA” when he has never played in the Majors?

"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."

by justincredubil02 on Mar 20, 2010 12:50 PM EDT up reply actions  

Chipper Jones

How does this relate to Chipper’s salary thru the years? Great players are making $20 to $33 mil per year, yet Chipper made $10 mil lasy year. Are you saying Chipper is worth a third of what A-Rod is making? Or is it possible he chose to get rich, but not as rich as he possibly could get, because he was where he wanted to be?

by bighop on Mar 18, 2010 9:59 AM EDT up reply actions  

And Heyward is a smart guy...

it’s not like he’ll be poor, or is likely to make unwise investments. Why not sacrifice a few million (see Maddux, Chipper, etc) for happiness, security, etc, in addition to better teammates and a chance at winning. I’d think part of Mauer’s negotiations isn’t overall money, because the guy will be well paid regardless, but is also trying to leave a little for teammates so he can have a chance for the playoffs.

by Mr. Sanchez on Mar 18, 2010 10:47 AM EDT up reply actions  

I'd be curious to know if he really wants to stay in Atlanta long term.

When I made my choice of college, getting away from home and living somewhere new was a major influence in the decision (I didn’t really want to move back there after college either). It’s very possible that he might want to live his whole life in the area he grew up in, but I can certainly see how a season of traveling to other big league cities may make him curious about what else is out there.

Pinella: Where th f*ck was that pitch at?
Ump: Lou, don't you know that you're not supposed to end a sentence with a preposition?
Pinella: Where the f*ck was that pitch at, a$$h*le?

by Schmidtxc on Mar 18, 2010 11:08 AM EDT up reply actions  

Possible...

but then again Atlanta is big enough he could leave Henry County, and move to Smyrna or another part of the area, and still get that away from home sense in an area he’s comfortable with and with strong support close by. That’s why I say above, the only people who know the answer to Heyward and a possible long term, Longoria/McCann/Sizemore type deal are his reps and Wren, and I doubt we’ll find that answer around here so may as well be patient and see how it plays out.

by Mr. Sanchez on Mar 18, 2010 11:30 AM EDT up reply actions  

bottom line

If Heyward wants to be rich and live close to home, he will have that opportunity. If he wants to be rich and leave Atlanta, that opportunity is there as well. I think Heyward is smarter than your average professional athlete, more grounded, less likely to blow his earnings on an entourage and 47 Bentley’s.

by bighop on Mar 18, 2010 11:56 AM EDT up reply actions  

ur assuming the Braves have the best teammates and the best chance of winning…this isnt always the case…and may certainly not be in the future…I would love to think it will be. the Braves have consistently been a contender for playoff spots, and we love the guys on our team and traditionally they have been good guys, but that doesnt mean other teams dont have a great bunch of guys and can win

Heyward,Hanson,and Shaffer r ready now!! Why do you think they havent signed the "right handed bat"?

by fatazfoot on Jan 7, 2009 8:59 PM EST

by Swo12bv on Mar 18, 2010 3:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

Agreed...

but then we aren’t the ones to answer those questions. Just Heyward, and only he knows what he values most, and what is agreeable to him.

by Mr. Sanchez on Mar 18, 2010 3:48 PM EDT up reply actions  

Perhaps that is the way you personally think and you’re projecting that thinking onto others,

thanks for patronizing me and calling me a money grubber…i appreciate that

Heyward,Hanson,and Shaffer r ready now!! Why do you think they havent signed the "right handed bat"?

by fatazfoot on Jan 7, 2009 8:59 PM EST

by Swo12bv on Mar 18, 2010 3:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

No offense intended.

There are certainly some people who are like that, to include some professional athletes, some lawyers, some physicians, etc.

My personal belief is that most professional athletes want to be well-compensated, but will not necessarily view playing the free agency game and signing the absolutely largest contract possible as the way to go. Others apparently disagree.

by fandave on Mar 18, 2010 10:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think the fact that very few players sign contracts other than the highest one offered kinda prove you wrong.

"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."

by justincredubil02 on Mar 18, 2010 11:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

if there was a comprehensive analysis of all ML players’ signings over say the last 20 years, I suspect the data would generally not support what you’re asserting.

its rather speculative in the absence of good hard data, but my suspicion is that there are at least as many cases like Chipper and Tim Hudson as cases like A-Rod and Tex.

by fandave on Mar 19, 2010 9:55 AM EDT up reply actions  

Let’s just take a look at this past F/A period (or the one before that, when money was being thrown around a bit more).

Just off the top of my head, we have players like Hudson, Chipper, Griffey and (?) who signed the team friendly contracts to play where they wanted to, and you have the Tiexiera, Furcal, Burnett, Lackey, Bay, Holliday, Atkins, Beltre, Byrd, DeRosa, etc who all took the biggest contracts available – some to play on crappy teams.

"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."

by justincredubil02 on Mar 19, 2010 12:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

yeah maybe so based on recent free agency signings.

however, 5 minutes of research reveals that during the same 2 years, many players waived arbitration rights and/or some free agency years in favor of staying put with the security of multi-year deals: J. Upton, Pedroia, F. Hernandez, Verlander, Kemp, Josh Johnson, Franklin Gutierez, H. Street, Victorino, Hamels and others.

so, again, I say it ain’t as simple as you would make it out to be.

by fandave on Mar 19, 2010 1:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

Longoria and Heap, notably, turned down the possibility of making tuns of money later in order to sign long term deals to ensure they stayed pat, as well.

by Bronn on Mar 19, 2010 2:39 PM EDT up reply actions  

Correct and there have been others.
I was just looking for examples for the last two years.

by fandave on Mar 19, 2010 2:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

Swo12bv, the financial difference is not that much...

…as I described in my post below. (Basically the problem with the original poster’s math is that a Super 2 doesn’t get less than a normal 3, both are first year arb cases and likewise for 2nd and 3rd year.) As for a long term deal and Frenchy, it isn’t that he refused to sign one; we just didn’t offer it. After we tied up McCann, people wondered about Francouer and we said we might in the future, but then he started sucking and obviously we didn’t. I don’t think it was anything about Franceour that stopped the long term deal; it was the Braves.

by cavebird on Mar 18, 2010 11:43 AM EDT up reply actions  

there’s a report that we offered McCann and Francouer the exact same deal essentially and Frenchy turned it down…i didn’t make that up

Heyward,Hanson,and Shaffer r ready now!! Why do you think they havent signed the "right handed bat"?

by fatazfoot on Jan 7, 2009 8:59 PM EST

by Swo12bv on Mar 18, 2010 3:37 PM EDT up reply actions  

See link...

http://atlanta.braves.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20070322&content_id=1854251&vkey=spt2007news&fext=.jsp&c_id=atl

From McCann’s extension story…
“But Francoeur’s long-term deal will have to wait. Like McCann, he was approached about a contract extension at the beginning of March. But it’s believed the counterproposal by Hammond was nearly double what the Braves originally offered.”

by Mr. Sanchez on Mar 18, 2010 3:54 PM EDT up reply actions  

Good thing for us Mets fans he didn't take that offer,

otherwise Omar may not have been able to rob Frank Wren blind for him.

Remember to check the batteries in your sarcasm detector

by Schmidtxc on Mar 18, 2010 4:58 PM EDT up reply actions  

Wren was glad to get Church, he said he would rather let Church go than a hometown player, and he was ready to just release him at the end of the season. Somehow, he knew right field was covered.

by bighop on Mar 18, 2010 6:11 PM EDT up reply actions  

You should read the tag on there a little closer...

Who cares how bad the Bay deal will look in 2013, the world is going to end in 2012 anyway

by Schmidtxc on Mar 18, 2010 6:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

Sorry

not sure what I missed. You are a Mets fan, you feel Omar robbed Wren blind. I said Wren was glad to trade him because he’s a hometown boy and releasing him might have been unpopular, but releasing Church was no big deal, he’s not a hometown boy. Was what I missed the “sarcasm detector”? Sorry man, I’m not following.

By the way, glad to have an intelligent fan of a rival around, sorry you have to deal with me being a dumbass on this one! It happens.

by bighop on Mar 18, 2010 7:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

I was referring to the "Remember to check the batteries in your sarcasm detector" that I added.

Jeff Francoeur is just a horrible baseball player…they shouldn’t put those guys on the scoreboard.

Who cares how bad the Bay deal will look in 2013, the world is going to end in 2012 anyway

by Schmidtxc on Mar 18, 2010 8:12 PM EDT up reply actions  

I was just hoping some people would see that and get a laugh

Who cares how bad the Bay deal will look in 2013, the world is going to end in 2012 anyway

by Schmidtxc on Mar 18, 2010 8:12 PM EDT up reply actions  

Thanks

for clearing that up. The sarcasm font has been a problem. Sorry I didn’t catch on faster.

by bighop on Mar 18, 2010 8:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

No issues

I’ve been so distracted watching the tourney today that I could have made the joke a little clearer

Who cares how bad the Bay deal will look in 2013, the world is going to end in 2012 anyway

by Schmidtxc on Mar 18, 2010 10:48 PM EDT up reply actions  

Wow.

Never saw that. I stand corrected. We got lucky.

by cavebird on Mar 19, 2010 9:26 AM EDT up reply actions  

That’s the sort of thinking that, a year ago, would have had us trading Heyward or Hanson (or both) for proven MLB stars to maximize our chances of winning in the 162 games we played last season. Not doing so has given us a better chance of winning now, and for the next 6 years.

We’re talking about 10 games or so now, in exchange for a better chance in 162 games in the future.

by Lennox on Mar 18, 2010 1:12 AM EDT up reply actions  

thats the shorten version of what i said….so thnx for providing the abridged version…i tend to get verbose

Heyward,Hanson,and Shaffer r ready now!! Why do you think they havent signed the "right handed bat"?

by fatazfoot on Jan 7, 2009 8:59 PM EST

by Swo12bv on Mar 18, 2010 1:18 AM EDT up reply actions  

No it would not. Except, of course, when taken to an illogical extreme.

by fandave on Mar 18, 2010 9:19 AM EDT up reply actions  

How in the world is that illogical?

"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."

by justincredubil02 on Mar 18, 2010 9:38 AM EDT up reply actions  

I’m not bothering to debate it with you today.

by fandave on Mar 18, 2010 9:51 AM EDT up reply actions  

I accept your concession speech.

"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."

by justincredubil02 on Mar 18, 2010 10:53 AM EDT up reply actions  

See above.
So, since you know everything:
What is the annual R & D budget of the Atlanta Braves Professional Baseball Club, Inc. (?) – to include hundreds of minor league players’ salaries, minor league coaching staff, all scouts worldwide, signing bonuses to sign draftees and international free agents, etc.? And, Should it be higher or lower than it is, comparitively to the annual major league budget?
How many successful MLB clubs / organizations can you list that routinely trade many their top of the prospect list, emerging major league ready talent?

by fandave on Mar 18, 2010 11:57 AM EDT up reply actions  

i like that, can i use that?

Pujols is NOT God.... sure he'll hit .350, hit 50 bombs, and drive in a 125....but then again...so will Heyward..

by lemke2blauser2bream on Mar 18, 2010 9:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

I’m not sure what an “illogical extreme” is supposed to be. My statement is logically consistent, and, quite frankly, when you start throwing around terms like “sacred trust” in regards to fielding the best possible baseball team now; it’s kind of hard to argue that someone else it taking it to an extreme.

by Lennox on Mar 18, 2010 2:06 PM EDT up reply actions  

To suggest trading Heyward or Hanson for “proven stars” that the team couldn’t have fit into the 2009 budget while advocating short term roster moves for the first few weeks of the upcoming season that could maybe, perhaps influence the 2016 budget is totally absurd.

Furthermore, the Braves spend untold tens of millions each year to run their scouting and minor league operations with the singular goal of developing top drawer young players who can be hopefully become all-star or even HOF caliber MLers. Dealing away top prospects of the Hanson or Hayward would have been obviously stupid.

Other than that, your original comment was perfectly logical.

by fandave on Mar 18, 2010 3:47 PM EDT up reply actions  

correction: “Dealing away top prospects of the Hanson or Hayward caliber would have been obviously stupid.”

by fandave on Mar 18, 2010 3:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

But it would have fulfilled the “sacred trust” to field the best team possible for 162 games.

by Lennox on Mar 18, 2010 7:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

I believe you misunderstood what I was attempting to communicate. I meant “sacred” not in any religious sense, but rather as a term to describe the fiduciary responsibility of management to the athletes on the team and to the fans to make every reasonable effort to field the best team possible and be as competitive as possible. This should very simply be the over-riding, number one objective.

The undeniable fact of the matter is, of course, that playoff berths are not infrequently decided by a mere single game in the standings at the end of the long 162 schedule and a game won the first week in April counts exactly the same as a game won in the last week of the season.

by fandave on Mar 18, 2010 8:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

And if we had traded Heyward and/or Hanson last year, it would have improved our chances of making the playoffs. So, please explain how it’s an illogical extension of your “sacred trust” argument …

by Lennox on Mar 18, 2010 9:27 PM EDT up reply actions  

Do you not read well? Or do you just want to be argumentative, intentionally misstate what I have said and refuse to acknowledge what I have explained?

As a general proposition, advocating things that are absurd and stupid is not consistent with logic.

by fandave on Mar 18, 2010 9:43 PM EDT up reply actions  

I read very well, thanks. You’ve simply explained nothing. All you’ve done is make logically contradictory statements and throw the word absurd around as if it proves anything.

Logically, if you believe that it is a “Sacred Trust” to give the current team the best chance of winning 162 games, that means that you should be willing to trade top prospects to give the current team the best chance of winning. If you believe it would have been absurd to trade Heyward because of his future value being greater than the value being given up by not trading him, that’s exactly the point being made.

10 games from Heyward at age 20 Vs 162 games at age 26-27.

BTW, the term is logical extreme, not “illogical extreme”.

by Lennox on Mar 18, 2010 10:11 PM EDT up reply actions  

Well then, thanks to you too. Please carry on by yourself and have a fun time misconstruing others’ statements and trying to score silly little points.

by fandave on Mar 18, 2010 10:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

He quoted you. You said it, and have yet to back it up. I find it very amusing that you accuse everyone else of being “know it alls” and argumentative…pot/kettle, much?

"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."

by justincredubil02 on Mar 18, 2010 11:17 PM EDT up reply actions  

you probably shouldnt be the one calling people argumentative buddy…but in all fairness it looks like i started the raucous this time

Heyward,Hanson,and Shaffer r ready now!! Why do you think they havent signed the "right handed bat"?

by fatazfoot on Jan 7, 2009 8:59 PM EST

by Swo12bv on Mar 18, 2010 11:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

I don’t deny that I like a good debate. But, I can admit that and I don’t go around accusing other people of it.

"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."

by justincredubil02 on Mar 18, 2010 11:37 PM EDT up reply actions  

i reply…touche

Heyward,Hanson,and Shaffer r ready now!! Why do you think they havent signed the "right handed bat"?

by fatazfoot on Jan 7, 2009 8:59 PM EST

by Swo12bv on Mar 18, 2010 11:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

What a shocker for you to pile on and attempt to stir up more conflict.

What was the “it” which I failed to support to your satisfaction? That it is illogical and bizarre to suggest trading premier, top 10 in the world level prospects who are ready or virtuallly ready to make big contributions at the ML level for “proven stars” who the team couldn’t fit into the existing payroll in any event? That the number one objective of management should be to field the best 25 man roster possible and thereby attempt to win as many games as possible throughout the entire season?

I find these discussions around amusing as well. But for different reasons than you, dear friend.

by fandave on Mar 19, 2010 8:16 AM EDT up reply actions  

unless Heyward was agreeable to a McCann/Longoria/etc style deal...

and we have no way of knowing what type of negotiations Wren and Heyward’s reps have had on that issue.

by Mr. Sanchez on Mar 18, 2010 10:49 AM EDT up reply actions  

Of course Longoria was kept in the minors for two weeks to start his rookie year specifically because it helped the Ray’s negotiating position when talking to him about a team friendly contract extension, and protected them in the event that they couldn’t work one out.

by Lennox on Mar 18, 2010 2:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

Lennox that is not the comparison.

The comparison is not 10 games now versus 162 games later. This is a false comparison because if we want to keep him when he hits free agency, we can do so but paying the market rate. The question is the financial question posed in the original post. It isn’t as bad as the original post looks however; and waiting 10 games to call him up really only saves us about $2-4 million six years from now. Accounting for the time value of money, it isn’t much of a savings at all.

by cavebird on Mar 18, 2010 11:47 AM EDT up reply actions  

It’s a year where Heyward would be GUARANTEED to be under team control rather than being a 26 year old unrestricted free agent that is free to field offers from any team that wants to make one.

And, quite frankly, if Jason Heyward is half the player that people here think he’ll be, we could be talking about a guy who will get contract offers from teams like the Yankees and Red Sox that will redefine the market rate for a FA.

by Lennox on Mar 18, 2010 2:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

That assumes we don't lock him up before hand.

The Cardinals did with Pujols for example, and there is no reason to think we can’t if we aren’t cheap about things. And yes, he will be pricey on the free agent market if he is good. He will also set record with a fourth year arbitration hearing. Either we will be able to afford him or we won’t, playing the send him down for 10 days game won’t really have much affect on anything.

by cavebird on Mar 18, 2010 4:37 PM EDT up reply actions  

There’s a huge difference between being able to pay a player pretty big (but still below market value) money for one year, and being able to match a 10+ year huge money contract that he’ll be able to get on the open market.

by Lennox on Mar 18, 2010 8:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

At the beginning of Spring I kinda wanted Heyward to struggle a little bit

Just so we could justifiably send him to AAA so we could save some $$$ and get him a little more experience, but there’s just no way. The man has an OPS of 1.400 this Spring.

He’s ready.

Omar Minaya is my hero!
"I'm not even allowed in Mexico."

by mvhsbball on Mar 17, 2010 8:41 PM EDT via mobile reply actions  

Let the man play ball

Get a couple of $400,000 years out of him and sign a long-term contract for his arbitration years, maybe a free agency year if Wren gets lucky.

by bighop on Mar 17, 2010 8:45 PM EDT reply actions  

I'd guess that they get Heyward locked up to a long term deal before he ever hits arbitration.

I still think they’d likely get an extra year on that deal and might get it a little cheaper by having team control until 2016. Saving a couple bucks here and there could really take what should be a very good team in JJ, Heyward, and Hansons primes and rounding out the roster into a great one.

Pinella: Where th f*ck was that pitch at?
Ump: Lou, don't you know that you're not supposed to end a sentence with a preposition?
Pinella: Where the f*ck was that pitch at, a$$h*le?

by Schmidtxc on Mar 17, 2010 8:51 PM EDT up reply actions  

I agree with the Mets fan here.

by Shoert on Mar 18, 2010 1:49 PM EDT up reply actions  

I voted for opening day,

but with the caveat that we need to sign him to a long-term, Longoria/McCann-style deal ASAP. If management is not interested in getting him signed long-term at some point soon, they should wait at least 2 weeks. But I have a hunch that they’re interested.

"Yeah, and I have an enchanted jock strap." -- Karl Karlson

by pacgnosis on Mar 17, 2010 9:35 PM EDT reply actions  

you’re advocating the Braves sign J-Hey to a long, multi-(7 or 10?)year deal prior to the beginning of his rookie season? At 20 years of age? and have a hunch also?

by fandave on Mar 17, 2010 10:38 PM EDT up reply actions  

Well

The Braves did lock up McCann in one of the most team-friendly deals in the major leagues, and then tried to get Francoeur signed long-term as well if Frenchy hadn’t had an inflated sense of his own value. So if you have a “hunch” based on “recent history,” it’s probably a good one.

Personally, I think Heyward’s value is only going up after this year. I suspect at the end of the season they’ll attempt to lock him up through his arbitration years and his first free agent year, whenever those figure to be.

by Bronn on Mar 17, 2010 10:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think it is going to be exciting to watch him (and the team) during his rookie season. I suspect he may be ROY or at least in the discussion. His value will obviously go up absent an unexpectedly inconsistent or poor performance.

by fandave on Mar 17, 2010 11:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

I’m pulling a Sid Bream.

your scoring from second because Barry Bonds makes a bad throw?

Heyward,Hanson,and Shaffer r ready now!! Why do you think they havent signed the "right handed bat"?

by fatazfoot on Jan 7, 2009 8:59 PM EST

by Swo12bv on Mar 18, 2010 1:20 AM EDT up reply actions  

I'm lighting the stadium on fire

Like Bream clearly did when the McGriff trade went down. Who else could it have been?

by Bronn on Mar 18, 2010 1:27 AM EDT up reply actions  

haha…i remember watching that game and it was delayed due to fire….

Pujols is NOT God.... sure he'll hit .350, hit 50 bombs, and drive in a 125....but then again...so will Heyward..

by lemke2blauser2bream on Mar 20, 2010 7:17 PM EDT up reply actions  

No one seems to be mentioning

That the team having the rights to his services for another year is a bargaining chip in the negotiations for a long term contract. Even if we do sign him to a long-term deal sometime soon, unless it is before opening day, we still stand to make more money from keeping him down a couple weeks than from the marginal win difference between him and our other outfielders.

That said, I will never be so sad to see our front office make a good decision.

by eyy on Mar 17, 2010 11:53 PM EDT reply actions  

Yes, but no.

Yes, it matters in negotiations. However, the difference in negotiations between a fourth year or arbitration and a year of free agency probably isn’t going to be much more than the marginal amount of money saved outside of a long contract.

by cavebird on Mar 18, 2010 4:39 PM EDT up reply actions  

The only issue ...

I think you may be underestimating what Heyward could get in Arb. Ryan Howard got $10 MM in his first Arb eligible season as a Super 2.

by Lennox on Mar 18, 2010 1:18 AM EDT reply actions  

thats true

Heyward,Hanson,and Shaffer r ready now!! Why do you think they havent signed the "right handed bat"?

by fatazfoot on Jan 7, 2009 8:59 PM EST

by Swo12bv on Mar 18, 2010 1:21 AM EDT up reply actions  

does anyone know who heyward’s agent is? it’s not boras, is it?

"Dum spiro spero"

by Bravely going forward on Mar 18, 2010 1:47 AM EDT reply actions  

Wikipedia says Career Sports & Entertainment. Anyone familiar with them?

"Dum spiro spero"

by Bravely going forward on Mar 18, 2010 1:55 AM EDT up reply actions  

I think your calculations are based on a false premise.

Your presumption is that Super 2 arbitration players get only 30% compared to “normal” first year arbitration players who get 40%, and so on for second and third year arbitration. I have never seen any evidence of that; only that it generally progresses 40/60/80. If this is true and a four year arbitration scenario is simply 40/60/80/90 or even 40/60/80/80 (which I think is the cheapest scenario). Using this and all of the other assumptions you make, the financial difference 6 years from now is either $2.2 million (if 4th year arb is 90%) or $4.5 million (if fourth year arb is only 80%). That just isn’t that big of a deal.

by cavebird on Mar 18, 2010 11:40 AM EDT reply actions  

Good points here

First – regarding arb splits. You are probably right in that the splits are more like 40/60/80/whatever than what I used. If this were not the case, then you’d see a lot more April 20th callups than you do for the mathematical reasons you highlight above. In this case, the only benefit to the team is that, in the Jason Heyward example, the Braves can have him no matter what in 2016 as long as they are willing to pay the arbitration decision, whereas if he becomes a FA after 2015, he can leave if he so chooses, regardless of what the Braves offer him.

Second, your points in my mind reduce the argument back to a binary decision really, between opening day and June 1. The 2.2 – 4.5M dollars you mention is now the difference between Super 2 and Opening Day — the difference in total salary for the Opening Day vs. June 1 callup is still like $20M, and even with the time value of money that is not an inconsequential sum (IMO).

Finally, with regards to arbitration decisions, I agree there isn’t “evidence” that 40/60/80 is applied, and indeed because of the process, I doubt you’d conclude that whatever deal a player got = 40%, even if you knew the “market value” with certainty. The reason for that is that the arbitration panel must choose the offer that in their opinion is closest to the 40/60/80% of market value — that’s my understanding of how they make the decision. Thus if a players market value is 10M in his first arb year, and the team submits 3.5M and the player asks for 5M, you’ll probably find that he would get 3.5M after arb. Thus the salary he received isn’t 40%. The actual arbitration amount doesn’t matter at the end of the day — the difference in the scenarios for Opening Day vs. June 1 is always [full market value – league minimum] if you assume that the arbitration value is the same between the two scenarios. One could argue that the arb awards could be higher in the June 1 case, however, if a player’s performance increases over time, as it can as players “hit their prime”. This would close the financial gap somewhat — but you could make the argument go either way depending on how much improvement you choose to assume.

Clearly, there are enough variables that there’s not a way to “prove” which decision is the right one. The decision for less valuable players is easier, because whatever you do most likely ends in a wash. With the Heyward types, I guess you have to choose whether you want maximum control or the best chance to “win now”.

by fphjr01 on Mar 18, 2010 2:08 PM EDT up reply actions  

That makes a lot of sense.

And yes, the arbitration process is skewed by the way it works with offers and requests, so it never is really exactly x% of free market value (especially considering that free market value is guesswork for a player who is not a free agent).

by cavebird on Mar 18, 2010 4:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

+1

If the choice is between June 1 and April 5, I vote April 5. That is a difference of ~ 40 games (1/4 of the season). IMO, this is too much time to gamble with an inferior player when we are fighting to make the playoffs. In this scenario, it does seem like we are paying $20 mil for a quarter year of service from a rookie, but while it stings a bit, I don’t think that is a solid argument.

The apparent cost of the ‘lost’ 4th arb year may be lessened because,

1) Free agency is 6 years away. How much is that year worth right now? 20 mil? It’s kind of a silly hypothetical, but think about how much he would get for that year if he signed a contract for 2016 today. Maybe 5 mil? It just seems wrong to assume that there is no risk in him not being worth 20 mil in 6 years.

2) It seems that the Braves will attempt to sign him during arbitration, not sure why they wouldn’t. If they try to hold him back this year, it seems that might lessen his ‘hometown, awesome franchise’ considerations. This would also mean the extra arbitration years are technically meaningless, as he’ll be under contract.

3) Holding back top prospects like that may hurt the teams image in the way of signing new prospects. I imagine keeping a player down for $ instead of development reasons will not look good to other developing players. Not doing things like this is the only reason players will ever consider taking a pay cut to play in Atlanta. So, in the long run, a high profile dick move to save a theoretical $20 mil in six years may end up costing money when all our players demand to be payed what they are worth.

4) If in some horrible circumstance, we don’t make the playoffs, and Jay-Hey isn’t there from Day One, that will be the assumed reason and the FO will look like shite.

5) Bobby has already made a pretty public campaign for Heyward, it would be a bad PR move to keep him down in Cox’s last season.

There are more, but just a few counter arguments to the June 1 scenario. I just don’t see the value in keeping the projected ROY in the minors to hypothetically save money in five years. The June 1 scenario had some merit before ST, but after what we’ve all seen, I think we can agree the kid is ready to get a shot in the big time. IMO, the only decision now is whether to act like the Braves organization and let him play, or (insert team with no class rep).

by someguy1 on Mar 19, 2010 11:20 AM EDT up reply actions  

ouch

did I really type ‘payed’?

by someguy1 on Mar 19, 2010 11:28 AM EDT up reply actions  

Can I get the Cliff Notes for the argument Justin, Fandave and Swo have been having?

"Dum spiro spero"

by Bravely going forward on Mar 20, 2010 1:12 AM EDT reply actions  

She says send him down for 2 weeks or 2 months, whatever it might take to guard against the possibility of a financial hit via arbitration or free agency 5 or 6 years for now. I say hell no, let’s not screw around with a championship season, let the young man play.

by fandave on Mar 20, 2010 8:21 AM EDT up reply actions  

oh, and Justin is being Justin.

by fandave on Mar 20, 2010 8:38 AM EDT up reply actions  

and u referred to me as a girl

and i am only advocating keeping him down for 2 weeks

Heyward,Hanson,and Shaffer r ready now!! Why do you think they havent signed the "right handed bat"?

by fatazfoot on Jan 7, 2009 8:59 PM EST

by Swo12bv on Mar 20, 2010 12:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

Which is funny...

as you claim no one knows this or that, including yourself. Since we all are ignorant on the internal factors at play with both the front office and Heyward, let’s see what plays out. For all we can see though, it certainly looks like opening day in right field will stand a massive man.

by Mr. Sanchez on Mar 20, 2010 6:38 PM EDT up reply actions  

it does look like the Braves will be taking that route…and generally when in doubtI will trust that they are much smarter than I and will do what is best for the team…i dont agree with this particular decision but they have information i don’t so it possible I’m wrong (unlikely as it may be :) )

Heyward,Hanson,and Shaffer r ready now!! Why do you think they havent signed the "right handed bat"?

by fatazfoot on Jan 7, 2009 8:59 PM EST

by Swo12bv on Mar 22, 2010 12:17 AM EDT up reply actions  

This is what I find hilarious. You say that “Justin is being Justin” when you are doing the exact same thing. The first step to recovery is to admit that you have a condition. I don’t deny that I am argumentative, but I think you are WAY more argumentative than I am about far more ridiculous things.

"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."

by justincredubil02 on Mar 20, 2010 12:51 PM EDT up reply actions  

Swo and I: You are right, fp. We think he should be held down for a few days, because brining him up now is a short-sighted move that could cost the team millions of dollars down the road. The key to being a successful GM is finding the balance between competing now and in the future. Heyward in AAA for 2 weeks will not have a significant impact on the team, as Melky can play an above average D in RF and hit well enough – especially given his above average WAR projection.

Fandave: Nuh-uh! We need the best team we can get right now from day 1. It is the GM’s responsibility to produce the best product he can right now.

Us: Well, that is great and all, but it is irresponsible fiscally.

Fandave: No it isn’t. Heyward will sign a Longoria-type deal, because he is a good person who doesn’t care about money!

Us: How do you know that?

FD: The other players will be offended and not play well and give up on the season if Heyward is demoted.

Us: Um…..

"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."

by justincredubil02 on Mar 20, 2010 1:22 PM EDT up reply actions  

In response to how do you know that?

How do you know he won’t? Both sides seem to be guessing at what is, when neither of y’all know. Those who think Heyward will sign long term have just as much evidence to fall back on as those that don’t, aka absolutely nothing. From the outsider’s perspective though, it certainly appears like the staff is going full speed ahead with Heyward as the opening day RF.

by Mr. Sanchez on Mar 20, 2010 6:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

I am not saying that he won’t. I am saying that the team needs to be prepared to deal with the worst-case scenario, and having him start on opening day does not do that.

"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."

by justincredubil02 on Mar 20, 2010 7:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

Cause they aren't?

“I am saying that the team needs to be prepared to deal with the worst-case scenario”. They have no clue of how arb rules work and what the results are of bringing him up on opening day vs. April 15th vs. June 1st?

by Mr. Sanchez on Mar 20, 2010 7:49 PM EDT up reply actions  

I feel secure in the belief that the Braves’ top management folk have more insights and better perspective on the situation and more capacity to make appropriate decisions than do Swo, Justin or I.

And you are clearly correct that appears all systems are go for Heyward to be the opening day RFer.

So, it would seem they (top manangement) must have a different opinion than Swo and Justin on the relative financial risks v. rewards.

by fandave on Mar 20, 2010 9:02 PM EDT up reply actions  

I garauntee they don;t have a different opinion about the relative financial risks v the rewards…its merely that they have most likely already begun negotiations regarding a long term deal with Heyward…and they have some insight that leads them to believe signing hiim to that deal will not be a problem…that would the way i see it if he starts from day 1…

Heyward,Hanson,and Shaffer r ready now!! Why do you think they havent signed the "right handed bat"?

by fatazfoot on Jan 7, 2009 8:59 PM EST

by Swo12bv on Mar 22, 2010 12:20 AM EDT up reply actions  

I garauntee they don;t have a different opinion

thats probably too strong

Heyward,Hanson,and Shaffer r ready now!! Why do you think they havent signed the "right handed bat"?

by fatazfoot on Jan 7, 2009 8:59 PM EST

by Swo12bv on Mar 22, 2010 12:25 AM EDT up reply actions  

Too strong? NEVER!

"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."

by justincredubil02 on Mar 22, 2010 11:29 AM EDT up reply actions  

how is this not moot?

does anyone really think they are going to send heyward to the minors after the hype campaign coming from all sides of the braves organization? if they were going to, you would be hearing things like “yeah he’s having a great spring, but he only has x amount of bats above AA…” instead no one is putting a cap on the idea that he could start in RF. i’m nearly 100% the job is his. they would be tempering our expectations if they were going to send him down, not feeding the frenzy.

by lingsched on Mar 22, 2010 3:42 PM EDT reply actions  

When should Jason Heyward be added to the 25 man roster?

thats the question…so it doesnt matter what is going to happen…the question asked what should happen

Heyward,Hanson,and Shaffer r ready now!! Why do you think they havent signed the "right handed bat"?

by fatazfoot on Jan 7, 2009 8:59 PM EST

by Swo12bv on Mar 22, 2010 9:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

still seems silly to me.
is our wisdom – as blogging fans, mostly relatively casual – better than that of the Braves management team, who have attributes like, oh, real experience, real world insights and perspectives, real information as to established budgetary projections, etc?

by fandave on Mar 22, 2010 9:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

where did i question the Braves management team? I actually gave deference to their decisions…i said the question asks what should happen…“lingsched” is answering what is going to happen..which is a different question.

and then you’re talking about something that has no bearing on either question, for some unknown reason

Heyward,Hanson,and Shaffer r ready now!! Why do you think they havent signed the "right handed bat"?

by fatazfoot on Jan 7, 2009 8:59 PM EST

by Swo12bv on Mar 23, 2010 12:14 AM EDT up reply actions  

my point

is talking about what “should” happen is sort of irrelevant when the direction the braves are headed with it is all but set. we could debate when he should be called up forever and never agree. so why not just let the braves decide :) . i for one am on board with the opening day call up, despite losing an extra year of team control. i don’t think heyward will be going anywhere for a long time regardless.

by lingsched on Mar 23, 2010 8:39 AM EDT reply actions  

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