Buster Olney is an Idiot
Buster lists the top 5 rotations in baseball...guess who isn't one of them...
"And keep in mind we're talking about pitchers No. 1 through No. 5, not just the top one or two, in which case my vote probably would go to the Mariners (with Felix Hernandez and Cliff Lee), the Cardinals (with Chris Carpenter and Adam Wainwright) or the Giants (with Tim Lincecum and Matt Cain). Here goes ...
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Last season, Jon Lester was 7-2 with a 2.82 ERA and 94 K's in 89.1 innings pitched after the All-Star break. Momentum into 2010, anybody?
1.Red Sox: Josh Beckett, Jon Lester, John Lackey, Daisuke Matsuzaka, Clay Buchholz, No. 6 Tim Wakefield. On paper, a strong group -- if Beckett has a season worthy of a contract drive, if Lackey succeeds in making the transition to the American League East, if Matsuzaka can finally get on the same page as the Red Sox staff and if Buchholz continues to improve.
2.Yankees: CC Sabathia, A.J. Burnett, Andy Pettitte, Javier Vazquez, Phil Hughes. As usual, Burnett is the key for this group; it could be the best if he pitches at an elite level.
3.White Sox: Jake Peavy, Mark Buehrle, John Danks, Gavin Floyd, Freddy Garcia. Peavy looked great in his three starts down the stretch this past season. More on that in Wednesday's blog.
4.Angels: Jered Weaver, Scott Kazmir, Joe Saunders, Ervin Santana, Joel Pineiro. Lackey is gone, but if Santana is healthy, this could be an excellent group.
5.Cardinals: Chris Carpenter, Adam Wainwright, Kyle Lohse, Brad Penny, somebody else. Penny, by the way, appears to be in great shape and is motivated to have a big season.
Let's add this:
5a. Phillies: Roy Halladay, Cole Hamels, Joe Blanton, J.A. Happ, Jamie Moyer. The Phillies would have been No. 1 if they had Halladay, Lee and Hamels 1-2-3.
Others in the conversation: Braves (whom I probably would have placed at No. 3 if not for the trade of Javier Vazquez), Giants, Rays (depending on how Matt Garza and David Price develop), Diamondbacks (depending on what Brandon Webb does)."
about 1 month ago
justincredubil02
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I agree...
I can’t stand Buster Olney. Jayson Stark is about the only ESPN guy I like. Well, him and Tim Kurkijan.
by dunnytwogloves on Feb 9, 2010 3:49 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
stark and kurkjian are the best
"If I have asthma, they won't let me scuba. And if I can’t scuba, then what’s this all been about?? What am I working toward??"
by Doghnut on Feb 9, 2010 6:47 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Kruk used to be alright and funny
but he really let himself go the past few years. Its still great to watch him clown on Steve Phillips every night tho.
Remember folks, I'm almost always wrong.
My sig was too long...
by mvhsbball on Feb 10, 2010 12:16 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
i actually dont watch bbtn anymore…i prefer mlbnetwork if i watch anything
"If I have asthma, they won't let me scuba. And if I can’t scuba, then what’s this all been about?? What am I working toward??"
by Doghnut on Feb 10, 2010 6:44 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Phillips is gone after the whole “sex scandal with ugly intern” thing. Apparently you can only be President and keep your job after that.
Shouldn't Reid Gorecki get a shot in RF before that Heyward kid everybody talks about?
by Rhyno18 on Feb 10, 2010 11:45 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
no politics
Heyward,Hanson,and Shaffer r ready now!! Why do you think they havent signed the "right handed bat"?
by fatazfoot on Jan 7, 2009 8:59 PM EST
by Swo12bv on Feb 10, 2010 7:27 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
what a douchebag
i need a clever signature
by heap16 on Feb 9, 2010 3:52 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
I don't think this is terribly unfair
But I’ve always hated Olney.
It’s a bit ridiculous to call the Boson #1 though, with Daisuke and Buchholz at the back end. Look how many “ifs” he puts into their description. There’s just so many question marks for him to think they’re the best.
And he does mention the Braves, just not as a top 5.
by Bronn on Feb 9, 2010 3:56 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
But do you really think that you can say that the Phillies rotation is better 1-5 than the Braves? I don’t see it. Obviously Halladay is better than anybody the Braves put out there (except Kenshin of course). But other than that, I’d take the Braves pitcher each and every time.
by dunnytwogloves on Feb 9, 2010 4:00 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
From a non-homer perspective, what do we have though?...
Hudson is solid, but coming off the injury probably isn’t his former self.
Lowe, still solid but was on decline.
Jurrjens, had a great year last season but folks hate his peripherals and claim he is a back end starter.
Hanson is young and while he looks like a star it’s hard to say for sure now.
KK-pretty good for a 5, but nothing more than middle of the rotation at best.
Now, granted we have about as many IFs to be great as he gives Boston. But from an outsider perspective, I can see how he has us on the cusp. If we kept Vasquez, we should be #1 not #3 imo, but as it stands now, I think that’s about right for us (although the Cards back end looks pretty bad to me, and the Angels are a big WHAT?!)
by Mr. Sanchez on Feb 9, 2010 4:17 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Hudson is not coming off the surgery – he came off of it last season and pitched well.
Lowe is on the decline, but by all accounts, looks to have a better year than last year (in which he still had a really good FIP), and looks to be blister free.
I have not heard one person say that JJ is a back of the rotation starter, ever – and I am one of those who thinks he will regress some.
Hanson is as much of a sure thing as Happ or any other young pitcher included in any team’s top 5.
KK is damn good for a 5, and if we have a legit 3 in our 5 spot, that makes us really really good.
This team, at WORST has the 4th best rotation in baseball.
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Feb 9, 2010 4:34 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Hudson pitched well for 42 innings last year. I’m tired of everyone assuming he’s just going to go out and dominate like he did 3 years ago. I think everyone has in mind the exceptional case of John Smoltz, who was a rather epic closer coming off Tommy John surgery. But it took him 5 years to get back into the starting rotation (where he was also kind of epic).
And it seems kind of weird to call Olney a hater for this. “How DARE he not believe we’re one of the 5 best in the game!” Stretching a bit, I think.
by Bronn on Feb 9, 2010 4:45 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Nobody is saying that he will dominate. I don’t expect him to be the pitcher that he used to be. I do expect him to pitch well though.
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Feb 9, 2010 4:52 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Completely disagree. Smoltz was your typical case. Here are just a few players who had the surgery....
* Nick Adenhart
* Brian Anderson 9
* Rick Ankiel 10 (converted to outfielder)
* Andy Ashby 11
* Luis Ayala 12
* Brandon Backe 13
* Danys Baez 14
* Luke Bailey (minor leaguer)
* Rocco Baldelli 15 (outfielder)
* Rod Beck 16
* Erik Bedard 17
* Francis Beltran 18
* Jeff Bennett 19
* Kris Benson 20
* Adam Bernero 21
* Brent Billingsley 22
* Joe Borchard (outfielder)
* Dewon Brazelton
* Doug Brocail
* Taylor Buchholz
* Ambiorix Burgos
* A. J. Burnett
* Paul Byrd
* Jorge Campillo
* José Canseco (outfielder; injured while pitching)
* Chris Capuano (twice)
* Chris Carpenter
* Rocky Cherry
* Shin-Soo Choo (outfielder)
* Todd Coffey
* Neal Cotts
* Casey Crosby (minor leaguer)
* Faustino De Los Santos (minor leaguer)
* Ben Davis (catcher)
* Sam Deduno (minor leaguer)
* Manny Delcarmen
* Ryan Dempster 20
* Chris Denorfia (outfielder)
* Jorge DePaula
* Joey Devine
* Brendan Donnelly
* Octavio Dotel
* Kyle Drabek (minor leaguer)
* Darren Dreifort
* Phil Dumatrait
* Brian Duensing
* Adam Eaton
* Dave Eiland (twice)
* Clint Everts (minor leaguer)
* Willie Eyre
* Scott Feldman23
* Jesse Foppert
* Chad Fox (thrice)
* John Franco
* Frank Francisco
* Éric Gagné 20
* Jaime García
* Luis Gonzalez (outfielder)
* Mike González
* Tom Gordon 20
* Rusty Greer (outfielder)
* Lee Gronkiewicz
* Angel Guzman
* Nick Hagadone (minor leaguer)
* Mike Hampton
* Sean Henn
* Pat Hentgen
* Runelvys Hernández
* Shawn Hill (twice)
* Matt Holliday (outfielder)
* Kris Honel (minor leaguer)
* Norris Hopper (outfielder)
* Tim Hudson
* Philip Humber
* Todd Hundley (catcher)
* Eric Hurley
* César Izturis (infielder)
* Jason Isringhausen
* Tommy John
* Kelly Johnson (infielder)
* Josh Johnson
* Steve Karsay
* Jimmy Key
* Josh Kinney
* Billy Koch 20
* Bobby Korecky
* Tyler Kornelsen (minor leaguer)
* Hong-Chih Kuo (twice)
* Cory Lidle
* Jon Lieber 20
* Jesse Litsch24
* Mike Lincoln (twice)
* Francisco Liriano
* Rodrigo Lopez
* Matt Mantei
* Shaun Marcum
* Scott Mathieson (twice)
* Joe Mays
* Seth McClung
* Jake McGee (minor leaguer)
* Dustin McGowan
* Sergio Mitre
* Paul Molitor (infielder)
* Matt Morris 20
* Peter Moylan
* Xavier Nady (twice; outfielder)
* Tim Naehring (infielder)
* Pat Neshek
* John Odom
* Russ Ortiz
* Josh Outman
* Juan Padilla
* Jarrod Parker (minor leaguer)
* John Parrish
* Carl Pavano
* Scott Proctor
* Bill Pulsipher
* Chris Ray 1420
* Carlos Quentin (outfielder)
* Britt Reames
* Al Reyes
* Anthony Reyes
* Arthur Rhodes
* Jose Rijo (thrice)
* Matt Riley (thrice)
* Ricardo Rincón
* Mariano Rivera
* Fernando Rodney
* Kenny Rogers
* Francisco Rosario
* B. J. Ryan
* Ángel Sánchez25 (infielder)
* Aníbal Sánchez
* Humberto Sánchez
* Scott Schoeneweis
* Jae Seo
* Alfredo Simon
* John Smoltz 20
* Kyle Snyder
* Joakim Soria
* Rafael Soriano
* Tim Spooneybarger
* Denny Stark (twice)
* Clete Thomas (outfielder)
* Brian Tollberg
* Wade Townsend (minor leaguer)
* Merkin Valdez
* Rick van den Hurk
* Edinson Volquez
* Billy Wagner
* Paul Wagner
* Tyler Walker
* David Wells
* Jake Westbrook
* Scott Williamson
* Brian Wilson
* Vance Wilson (twice; catcher)
* Mark Wohlers
* Randy Wolf
* Kerry Wood 20
* Mark Worrell
* Jaret Wright
* Tyler Yates (twice)
* Matt Young
* Mike Zagurski
* Víctor Zambrano (twice)
* Jeff Zimmerman (twice)
* Jordan Zimmermann
"Sometimes I wonder what'd it be like to be outside and not hear the birds chirping...I think it'd be kind of nice."
by alligatorimpersonator on Feb 9, 2010 5:39 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
this list is kinda pointless without telling us how long it took for people to get back to their previous abilities. Bronn’s point was that it might take Hudson a season or two to return to dominance — not that he never would.
"If I have asthma, they won't let me scuba. And if I can’t scuba, then what’s this all been about?? What am I working toward??"
by Doghnut on Feb 9, 2010 6:49 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
My bad. No good to assume. Here's a few names from the list:
Chris Carpenter got the surgery in ’07, missed the rest of that season and came back for a successful brief stint in ’08. His next full year in ’09, he put up Cy Young worthy stats.
A.J. Burnett had the surgery in ’03. He came back in mid 2004 and went 7-6 with a 3.68 ERA, and was able to hit 100 mph with his fastball.
Josh Johnson has a 3.37 ERA in 47 starts since returning from Tommy John surgery.
Then you have Kenny Rogers, Ryan Dempster, Randy Wolf…the list goes on and on.
If you want to look at a few players that are closer to the Braves organization that had successful returns from TJ surgery, look no further than Peter Moylan and Rafael Soriano. Moylan went down in ’08 and recovered in 11 months to put up a 2.84 ERA in 73 innings last year.
Soriano had TJ surgery in late 2004. He came back in late ’05 and threw 7 very good innings. His first full year back from the surgery, he put up a 2.25 ERA and a 1.08 WHIP in 60 innings.
I’m sorry, I’m probably going off the deep end here, but I find it crazy that someone could say that Smoltz was an “exceptional case” of someone returning from TJ surgery. His case is basically everyone’s case – the pitcher came back just as strong, and in some cases even stronger than before.
"Sometimes I wonder what'd it be like to be outside and not hear the birds chirping...I think it'd be kind of nice."
by alligatorimpersonator on Feb 9, 2010 7:24 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
This.
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Feb 9, 2010 7:37 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
two of ur examples took well over a year to get back to a dominating form…Carpenter had other injuries, like Soriano, but you cannot definatively say they had nothin to do with hsi TJ surgery (as i cant say they didnt)
Heyward,Hanson,and Shaffer r ready now!! Why do you think they havent signed the "right handed bat"?
by fatazfoot on Jan 7, 2009 8:59 PM EST
by Swo12bv on Feb 9, 2010 9:53 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I mean, I guess I can’t definitively say that. I do know Carpenter had bone spurs in his elbow that he had problems with, and then later he had problems with his oblique – both of those are not related to TJ surgery.
The bottom line is this: Carpenter got his TJ surgery in late July, came back a year later and pitched some, and by the next full season he was perfectly fine. Hudson got his TJ surgery in early August, came back a year later and pitched some, so we should look for his next full season to be completely fine just like Carpenter.
Huddy will have over a year and a half to recover from his TJ surgery, and mostly every other pitcher who had that amount of time to recover came back great, so we should feel very confident in his ability to come back.
"Sometimes I wonder what'd it be like to be outside and not hear the birds chirping...I think it'd be kind of nice."
by alligatorimpersonator on Feb 9, 2010 10:21 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
bone spurs in his elbow, was it the same elbow he had TJ surgery…bc then i would put money that they were at least partially related.
Heyward,Hanson,and Shaffer r ready now!! Why do you think they havent signed the "right handed bat"?
by fatazfoot on Jan 7, 2009 8:59 PM EST
by Swo12bv on Feb 10, 2010 12:28 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
He had surgery on bone spurs in his elbow in May of 2007. He went in for Tommy John surgery in July of 2007, so the bone spurs were a preexisting condition, not complications of the TJ surgery.
"Sometimes I wonder what'd it be like to be outside and not hear the birds chirping...I think it'd be kind of nice."
by alligatorimpersonator on Feb 10, 2010 10:54 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
ok then ur correct…i didnt know the time line
Heyward,Hanson,and Shaffer r ready now!! Why do you think they havent signed the "right handed bat"?
by fatazfoot on Jan 7, 2009 8:59 PM EST
by Swo12bv on Feb 10, 2010 7:28 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, see that trying to look at it from a non-homer perspective?
I agree with your line of thinking, but then I’m a fan of those guys so bias is definitely in there.
Hudson pitched a full season yet (or more than a month and a half)? Hence the “coming off injury” bit.
Lowe may bounce back, he may not, no one can say for certain now. He’s older and regressed last year. The Braves fan in me says it was blisters and he’ll be back to 220 innings of mid 3s era, but that may not be the case.
You haven’t called JJ a back end starter, but others around here have as recently as this winter.
Agree on Hanson, but then young means suspect.
Agree on KK, but can he go a full year?
Again, I agree with you, but trying looking at it without the Braves fan perspective. Ours should certainly be higher than the Angels, but we have our ?s as much as anyone.
by Mr. Sanchez on Feb 9, 2010 4:51 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Agreed…except to include the Phillies and the freaking Whitesox, but give the Braves a passing reference is just lazy journalism. Hell, having the Redsox ahead of the Yanks pretty much says all that needs to be said about Olney’s ability to write a credible piece.
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Feb 9, 2010 4:55 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Playing Devil's Advocate though...
the Red Sox rotation is pretty stout. Have Beckett, Lester, Lackey, and Bucholz pitch at the levels they’re capable of, and still got Daiske or Wakefield in the 5th slot? That’s strong.
The Yankees, while I think CC is the ish, he has SOOOOO many innings on that arm the last few years I wonder how long he lasts before missing a month or more. Burnett has been consistent with his inconsistency so I’m not sure how reliable he is. Vasquez does not seem like a good fit for that stadium, and Petite is pushing 40, while the 5 spot of Hughes/Joba has great talent, but both have been much more effective as set up man than starters. I’m not sold on the Yankees staff and think they are as filled with IFs as he makes the Red Sox.
As for the Phils and White Sox, while much of their rotations look suspect, they have some solid innings eaters at 3 and 4 (Danks/Floyd and Happ/Blanton), with 1s capable of being Cy Young winners and 2s with a solid level of success as their staff’s #1.
Of the ones he listed, it’s the Angels that seem completely out of place to me.
by Mr. Sanchez on Feb 9, 2010 5:06 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah. And the fact that the Cards have four men in their rotation. I mean, Carpenter and Wainwright are great, but really?
by ATLforlife on Feb 9, 2010 5:38 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
If the Cardinals signed me as their #5 starter, I guarantee you that nobody would be calling that staff as the 5th best in baseball. :)
by dunnytwogloves on Feb 9, 2010 5:53 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
+1
"Sometimes I wonder what'd it be like to be outside and not hear the birds chirping...I think it'd be kind of nice."
by alligatorimpersonator on Feb 9, 2010 9:23 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
F*ck off, Buster
Believe it or not, baseball is actually played outside of the North Eastern corner of the U.S.
Remember folks, I'm almost always wrong.
My sig was too long...
by mvhsbball on Feb 9, 2010 5:32 PM EST via mobile reply actions 0 recs
Look at Nos 1 and 2. BoSox, Yanks. How surprising. Teehee.
I’m not sure I understand this either, but I’m glad people agree with me. I just saw it and was ready to storm over here to post something lambasting Olney. Beat me to it by a good couple hours, nice!
by ATLforlife on Feb 9, 2010 5:37 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Hudson replaces Vazquez and that drops us so far? The only thing more absurd than Philadelphia in “5A” is to include St. Louis with a “somebody else” in their 5th starter spot.
Here are Pujols's stats: 1.000/1.000/4.000/5.000. That's right. He is batting a thousand, with a thousand OBP (naturally), and every hit has been a home run, and thus his OPS is a perfect 5.000.
by TradeAndruw on Feb 9, 2010 5:40 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Hudson doesnt replace Vasquez…if Vasquez was on our team we would have KK in the pen….so JV > KK by a fair margin…our staff was really good last year…so we should get some credit there, but by all accounts JV pitched over his head and Tommy Hanson was really really good, I dont quite expect him to be that good in 2010 (some bumps are in the road, IMHO, as the league adjusts, then he’ll readjust and be really good again presumably)…
Heyward,Hanson,and Shaffer r ready now!! Why do you think they havent signed the "right handed bat"?
by fatazfoot on Jan 7, 2009 8:59 PM EST
by Swo12bv on Feb 9, 2010 10:00 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Uh, why doesn’t he? Huddy replaces Vazquez as our #1, some might actually consider that an upgrade. If you’re trying to say that we would be better with both, then yeah you’re right, but we didn’t have that luxury with the offensive holes. KK would be wasted in the pen IMO.
Here are Pujols's stats: 1.000/1.000/4.000/5.000. That's right. He is batting a thousand, with a thousand OBP (naturally), and every hit has been a home run, and thus his OPS is a perfect 5.000.
by TradeAndruw on Feb 9, 2010 10:09 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
yeah...
I loved “somebody else”, like St. Louis’ first four are so great that they could put me in there in the five spot, and still be better than the 25 other rotations.
"It breaks your heart. It is designed to break your heart. The game begins in the spring, when everything else begins again, and it blossoms in the summer, filling the afternoons and evenings, and then as soon as the chill rains come, it stops and leaves you to face the fall alone." A. Bartlett Giamatti
by sddbaker on Feb 10, 2010 11:46 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
i thought the CHW was the most atrocious pick…Peavy is not anywhere near good enough to carry that rotation (im looking at you Freddy Garcia…he hasnt pitched a full season since 2006). Floyd, Danks and Buerle are solid, but i dont think they are good enough to put them in the top 5…but thats just me.
and as a reasonable outside observer….i have the Yankees and Red Sox in the top 2…i would probably put the Red Sox nbr 1 bc they have the depth in the 5 spot (Wake or Bucholz or whomever)..after that it would be close between the Braves and the Phils….again i give it to the depth the Braves have…
Heyward,Hanson,and Shaffer r ready now!! Why do you think they havent signed the "right handed bat"?
by fatazfoot on Jan 7, 2009 8:59 PM EST
by Swo12bv on Feb 9, 2010 10:05 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
I’d go with Yanks, Sox, Mariners, Braves, Giants
dammit, frank wren
by esadb on Feb 9, 2010 10:21 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Maybe I am just a hater, but I don’t see the Sox having good pitchers in the 4 or 5 spot.
I also don’t get the love for the Cardinals or Angels.
Personally, my list would probably look like this:
1. NYY
2. Atl
3. SF
4. Seattle
5. Philly
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Feb 9, 2010 10:26 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I just pulled a 17 hour shift yesterday and am doing another 12 hour tonight, so forgive me if I can’t tell if you are being sarcastic or not.
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Feb 10, 2010 12:23 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
but honestly of that 29 hours you worked what maybe 4?
i kid
Heyward,Hanson,and Shaffer r ready now!! Why do you think they havent signed the "right handed bat"?
by fatazfoot on Jan 7, 2009 8:59 PM EST
by Swo12bv on Feb 10, 2010 12:32 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Actually, not this time…we are in an exercise, so I have been in chemical warfare gear, getting attacked, wearing full up gear and maintaining control of my squadron…and still finding time to post every now and then.
A true fan!
:)
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Feb 10, 2010 1:41 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
SF has NOBODY besides Lincecum and Cain. Sanchez is just alright and they have nothing besides that.
Remember folks, I'm almost always wrong.
My sig was too long...
by mvhsbball on Feb 10, 2010 12:17 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
You kinda just described over half of Buster’s list…
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Feb 10, 2010 12:22 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
ur not wrong, but when u have the best pitcher in the NL (arguably) and the most underrated pitcher in baseball in Cain…you don’t need that much behind it…and Sanchez did have a good year last year and has really good stuff…he’s like Javier Vazquez in a lot of ways…
Heyward,Hanson,and Shaffer r ready now!! Why do you think they havent signed the "right handed bat"?
by fatazfoot on Jan 7, 2009 8:59 PM EST
by Swo12bv on Feb 10, 2010 12:35 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
on ya and he’s been worth over 4 WAR total the last two years, which from your 3rd starter isnt anything to sneeze at.
Heyward,Hanson,and Shaffer r ready now!! Why do you think they havent signed the "right handed bat"?
by fatazfoot on Jan 7, 2009 8:59 PM EST
by Swo12bv on Feb 10, 2010 12:36 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
but who do they have behind those 3?
Remember folks, I'm almost always wrong.
My sig was too long...
by mvhsbball on Feb 10, 2010 12:37 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Barry Zito, who while drastically overpaid…is again worth about 2 WAR a season and coming from a 4 thats borderline great..(its just they pay him to be a nbr 1)
and their 5th starter next year is probably Madison Bumgarner, who by all accounts is ridiculously good…he strikes guys who regularly, and doesnt even believe in walking people…and he turns 21 in august, which bodes well for his future (seeing as he’ll probably start the season on the roster and be called up pretty early)…until he gets the spot, it will probably be Noah Lowry…now here’s where they kinda fall off…if Madison isnt ready (although he’s already had his cup of coffee) then the Giants 5th spot is weak when compared to the other teams on this list, but remember they have Lincecum…so it kinda balances out…
I would put them 5th on the list probably tied with SEA (they are similar in that both teams are top heavy, and then have underrated guys in the 3rd,4th, and 5th spots in the rotation
Heyward,Hanson,and Shaffer r ready now!! Why do you think they havent signed the "right handed bat"?
by fatazfoot on Jan 7, 2009 8:59 PM EST
by Swo12bv on Feb 10, 2010 12:43 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Bumgarner’s velocity dropped drastically when he cames to the bigs last season, with absolutely no reason for it. I know a lot of the scouts were worried about this. Maybe it was just a tired arm, but if his fastball continues to top out at 88 or 89mph, he’s gonna get rocked.
Zito would’ve had yet another horrible season last year if it wasn’t for a hot streak in August. I guess he’s alright as a #4 starter tho.
And I agree about them being tied with the Mariners (and Cardinals IMO as well). All 3 teams have a crazy 1-2 punch, with just an average back-end of the rotation.
Remember folks, I'm almost always wrong.
My sig was too long...
by mvhsbball on Feb 10, 2010 12:48 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
ur a lot dumber than i thought if u dont have the Sox in the top 5
Lester, Lackey and Beckett alone is good enough for a top 5 finish…and then when u throw in Bucholz (who essentially is TOmmy Hanson, except a little younger) and Daisuke (who I know you hate, but he does have solid results) the endless contract that is Tim Wakefield…they have some serious depth (not counting what they have in the minors, which isnt extensive is better than what we have at the top levels..i stress top levels).
Your drastically underrating how good Jon Lester really is…and probably not giving Lackey or Beckett the benefit of the doubt on their past success.
that said I do agree with SEA making a solid case for the top 5 (King Felix and Cliff Lee is hard to beat as a one-two punch).
Heyward,Hanson,and Shaffer r ready now!! Why do you think they havent signed the "right handed bat"?
by fatazfoot on Jan 7, 2009 8:59 PM EST
by Swo12bv on Feb 10, 2010 12:31 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
my list is this:
Yankees
RedSox
Braves
Angels
Mariners/Giants/Cardinals
Remember folks, I'm almost always wrong.
My sig was too long...
by mvhsbball on Feb 10, 2010 12:35 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Who is best 1-5?
Sabathia vs Hudson (tie, hudson has better D)
Burnett vs Lowe (lowe raked last year)
Pettitte vs Jurrjens (who?)
Vazquez vs Hanson (hanson is a beast)
Hughes vs Kawakami (kawakami won the japanese cy young award)
Here are Pujols's stats: 1.000/1.000/4.000/5.000. That's right. He is batting a thousand, with a thousand OBP (naturally), and every hit has been a home run, and thus his OPS is a perfect 5.000.
by TradeAndruw on Feb 10, 2010 12:53 AM EST up reply actions 4 recs
hahahahhaha +1
Beautiful.
I’m kinda thinking TC should put the Mets fan’s comparisons on the front page somewhere. It was pure magic.
Remember folks, I'm almost always wrong.
My sig was too long...
by mvhsbball on Feb 10, 2010 1:22 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
BWAHAHAHAHAH!
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Feb 10, 2010 1:44 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
green
"Matt Diaz is a baseball player."-Joe Simpson
by 10-4 on Feb 10, 2010 8:52 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
How do the Angels make it?...
Weaver is solid, but Saunder and Santana aren’t really. Kazmir is inconsistent. Piniero is decent. But top 5?
by Mr. Sanchez on Feb 10, 2010 6:37 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
5 guys
Al with projected FIPs in the low 4s.
Santana was AWESOME pre-surgery, so if he’s back even close to that, they’re really good. They just lack a true top end guy, but then again, so do we. They’re all solid pitchers, though, and it’s really strong 1-5.
Unfortunately, they still won’t be able to make the playoffs this year.
by Bronn on Feb 10, 2010 11:39 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Projected?..
do it for real, not on some stat heads guesstimate.
And is an FIP in the 4s actually good? If it’s supposed to be similar to ERA, a staff full of ERAs in the low to mid 4s isn’t exactly a good staff in my eyes, it’s just a bunch of average guys.
Kazmir has been inconsistent and struggled with injuries. Weaver is decent, but not the ace he was hyped to be. Piniero has been inconsistent from year to year, from decent to horrible. Saunders has nice win totals, but his FIP last year was in the 5s, as was Santana’s.
Maybe they’ll be a top 5 staff, but as of right now, I don’t see it. I’d agree with solid pitchers, but not “really strong”. They are a bunch of decent players, with some potential if healthy but suspect injury histories. Weaver could be an ace, but I wouldn’t count on it. Same with Kazmir. I personally just don’t see it with them.
As for “They just lack a true top end guy, but then again, so do we”, I disagree. Kazmir has been in the past, but it’s suspect if he will be again. The Braves have multiple pitchers that have pitched like “top end” types in Hudson, Lowe, and Jurrjens, while Hanson’s stats from last year are as good as any member of the Angels staff in a single year. I’d take ours all day over theirs and not think twice.
by Mr. Sanchez on Feb 10, 2010 1:57 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
So, Santana coming off of surgery is different than Hudson coming off of surgery?
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Feb 10, 2010 2:54 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Sorry but
Santana pre-surgery>>>>>>>>>>>>Hudson pre surgery.
by Bronn on Feb 10, 2010 7:07 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
But, that isn’t the issue…you have serious doubts about Hudson because of the surgery that he had, yet you simply dismiss Santana’s and expect him to bounce back – thus making the Angels one of the best rotations in baseball.
You can’t have your cake and eat it too.
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Feb 10, 2010 10:50 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
FTW!
…did I use that correctly?
"Sometimes I wonder what'd it be like to be outside and not hear the birds chirping...I think it'd be kind of nice."
by alligatorimpersonator on Feb 10, 2010 11:17 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
You're really putting words in my mouth, now
My thing with Hudson is that I’m seeing a lot of homerism around here that’s projecting him to be just phenomenal this season, like he’s automatically going to pop back in to 2007 form now that he’s had his surgery, and is like a lock for 190 innings. My concern is that you can’t tell if the guy isn’t going to have some issues getting all the way back, like he had some health issues that cropped up in his rehab. And I’m having to advocate the virtures of Ervin because it seems he’s being discounted heavily around here. It seems like I’m using different standards because I’m arguing relative positions, but I’m really not.
My standards for both guys are actually the same. But they’re not both in exactly the same situation. Ervin Santana is 7 years younger than Tim Hudson, AND he pitched 3x as many innings as Hudson did last year. Plus, Ervin doesn’t have to bat except during interleague play, so there’s opportunites for freak injuries. There’s a ton of reasons to believe he’s going to be generally healthier than Hudson will.
I’m actually projecting Hudson to be better than Santana next year, but not for as many innings. There’s a bit of a league adjustment to account for, and where both guys are on their respective aging curves, you have to expect just a bit of decline from Hudson while Santana may still not have maxed out.
Say a 3.80ish FIP for Hudson over 170 innings, and a 4.20ish FIP for Ervin Santana but over more like 190 innings. Factor in the league adjustments, and both guys are around the same value. You may think my projection for Hudson is extremely pessimistic, but you can check out what several other projections have here and see that I’m fairly optimistic-and if you think that’s pessimistic for Hudson, you’re kind of proving my point about unreasonable expectations for him.
And I think that’s a solid rotation for the Angels if you project that for Ervin. I would put the Braves’ above it, but it’s not like I think Buster is a criminal for opting for the Angels.
by Bronn on Feb 11, 2010 12:15 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Really?...
when was Santana Cy Young caliber like Hudson?
by Mr. Sanchez on Feb 11, 2010 10:01 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I absolutely love Becket. I understand that Lackey is a good pitcher too, but I think he got a bit overhyped being that he was the best available pitcher this offseason (kinda like AJ last season). Lester is good too, but is he one of the best? I would argue that Lester is no better than the #2/3 pitcher on any of the teams listed so far in this thread. I cannot believe that you of all people are making a case for Dice-K, and Clay B hasn’t shown anything outstanding outside of that one game he threw a decade ago. I think he is more on the Joba scale than the Hanson scale – decent pitcher but very overhyped.
I mean, the Sox rotation isn’t horrible and most teams would love to have it, but when talking about the best in the game, I think they fall short.
If you put the Sox in there, who do you take out? A case can be made for every team I listed (and thanks for making the case for SF for me) to say that they are better (or at least, better poised) than the Sox.
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Feb 10, 2010 1:51 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Beckett is just a little overrated
At least in certain circles. Skip Bayless will occasionally say “He’s the best pitcher in the league,” and people will actually agree with him. Olney occasionally seems on the verge of writing love poems when he talks about Beckett. I’ve heard Colin Cowherd (how does this guy have a job?) talk him up as well, and I barely listen to the guy.
Personally, I think he’s awesome. But he’s not in that super-elite tier of pitchers; guys like Lincecum, CC, Halladay, Dan Haren, Cliff Lee, Zach Greinke (probably-need one more really good year), and Webb, when healthy. He’s in the next highest, but playing in Boston and having some good playoff showings have really inflated his reputation.
by Bronn on Feb 10, 2010 3:03 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
…playing in Bostonand having some good playoff showingsand having some decent skills have really inflated his reputation.
I think you just described 99% of all Red Sox players.
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Feb 10, 2010 5:01 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Skip Bayless will occasionally say "He’s the best pitcher in the league," and people will actually agree with him
this gives me all the evidence i need that the world is ending…
Heyward,Hanson,and Shaffer r ready now!! Why do you think they havent signed the "right handed bat"?
by fatazfoot on Jan 7, 2009 8:59 PM EST
by Swo12bv on Feb 10, 2010 9:34 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Skip Bayless is a worthless hater...
and there are enough idiots in the world that you can say damn near anything and some moron will agree.
by Mr. Sanchez on Feb 10, 2010 9:47 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
only 7 SP were more valuable than Jon Lester last year, only 10 were better in 2008….so in his first two years in baseball he has been an ace (defined as top 15 best starting pitcher)…he is really good and i will not continue in this argument…
In re Bucholz…he is pretty good and has upside as a nbr 1 starter (maybe nbr 2, or a staff ace)….which is similar to Tommy Hanson…Buchholz is at the point where he needs to show something this year, but his minor league numbers and he destruction of all things pitching in 07 (small sample size i know)..point to him being a very good pithcer…I wouldnt say he’s at the same point as Tommy Hanson, but their ceiling is pretty similar.
Heyward,Hanson,and Shaffer r ready now!! Why do you think they havent signed the "right handed bat"?
by fatazfoot on Jan 7, 2009 8:59 PM EST
by Swo12bv on Feb 10, 2010 9:42 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Of course you would not list Boston.
I recall from another thread that you said Dice-K was horrible the entire time since he came to the US not just his 60-odd injury plagued innings last year. You apparently missed the 18-3, 2.something ERA (with a 3.something FIP) in 2008, which is one of only two non-injured seasons he has pitched. If you got over your irrational thought that Dice-K has always sucked, it would make your opinion of the Red Sox rotation more reasonable.
by cavebird on Feb 10, 2010 11:33 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Let’s completely ignore his 1.32 WHIP 5 BB/9 average during his 18 win season.
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Feb 10, 2010 2:43 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Dice K by year:
2007: 32 games, 204 IPs, 4.40 ERA, 1.324 WHIP, 15-12, 3.5 BB/9
2008: 29 games, 167 IPs, ZOMG 2.90 ERA, 1.324 WHIP, ZOMG 18-3 record, 5 BB/9
2009: 12 games, 59 IPs, 5.76 ERA, 1.871 WHIP, 4-6 record, 4.6 BB/9
Let’s take away his injured 2009, and see what his stats average, shall we?
61 games, 372 IPs, 3.72 ERA, 1.324 WHIP, 33-15 record, 4.2 BB/9
So, basically, if you like a guy who walks a ton of people, a league average WHIP and an unspectacular ERA, but he ZOMG wins games, Dice-K is your man…or maybe John Garland too.
I am not basing my perception of Dice-K on 60 innings of injury-affected pitching. He is league average at best, and that is based on his two best years here.
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Feb 10, 2010 2:52 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Take is easy
I don’t think his list is unreasonable.
by golfballs03 on Feb 10, 2010 11:14 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Dice-K is above average & not horrible. The White Sox making this list is a joke. The carcass of Freddy Garcia, helps make them great? Please!
by FitzFan on Feb 15, 2010 3:22 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
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