Navigation: Jump to content areas:


Pro Quality. Fan Perspective.
Login-facebook
Around SBN: Carmelo Anthony, Amar'e Stoudemire Vow To Fit In With Lin

Ever wonder what wOBA, FIP or BABIP mean? Or even better, how to calculate one of these for your favorite player? Well now you can!

Sabermetrics Library

Some in the SABR community had been discussing a Sabermetric library even before John Sickels wrote an opinion piece a while back that sparked a TON of discussion. Thanks to Steve Slowinski, with the help of some friends as well, over at DraysBay, we now have a really neat resource to point to for someone who's looking to get a better understanding of Sabermetrics.

almost 2 years ago Braves_tiny scstrato 29 comments 0 recs  | 

Story-email Email Printer Print

Comments

Display:

Awesome. Thanks for the link.

I don't need the Cat Lady to throw cats at me to let me know she's crazy!

by McCann and McWill on Feb 25, 2010 9:08 AM EST reply actions  

absolutely awesome

I’ve been looking for something like this. Kinda new to the stat side of things so I’m soaking this up like a sponge. This is why I love TC. Thanks for the link.

by adc62 on Feb 25, 2010 10:59 AM EST reply actions  

Good to hear

I imagine this website will grow by leaps and bounds over the next few months as more and more users start frequenting it. Still, even in it’s beginning, it’s a very useful tool.

"I think the Tigers really overpaided here" ... 2/21/2010 by Holty_Panthers_Fan on Johnny Damon signing for $8 Million

by scstrato on Feb 25, 2010 12:42 PM EST up reply actions  

What gets me is people that say they don't...

I can understand wins, as it’s more team than individual. But to discount ERA, Batting average, etc as if they are meaningless is what gets me. I can understand some stats are more accurate gauges of certain aspects of the game, but getting base hits and allowing few runs while you’re pitching still seems somewhat meaningful to me.

I wonder if there is a fantasy site that uses FIP and OPS instead of ERA and avg.

by Mr. Sanchez on Feb 25, 2010 12:26 PM EST up reply actions  

I wonder if there is a fantasy site that uses FIP and OPS instead of ERA and avg.

There are some who have tried to get this type of league together. Unfortunately the Fantasy guys and SABR nerds are two different crowds. Sure there are some crossovers, but for the most part they don’t really mesh.

"I think the Tigers really overpaided here" ... 2/21/2010 by Holty_Panthers_Fan on Johnny Damon signing for $8 Million

by scstrato on Feb 25, 2010 12:39 PM EST up reply actions  

Maybe I should re-phrase

Wins are obviously a pretty useless stat anymore unless you’re playing Fantasy Baseball. How Derek Lowe had 15 wins and JJ only had 14 is still beyond me.

Obviously, you want your players to hit the baseball. I wish every player on the Braves would hit .300. But it seems like so many places put a ton of emphasis on averages. If a guy isn’t walking and taking tough pitches at the plate, he’s not a complete hitter, imo.

Omar Minaya is my hero!

by Scott Coleman on Feb 25, 2010 12:40 PM EST up reply actions  

I agree...

and maybe that is the reason for the backlash among the more stat savvy, the overemphasis on those stats. But I don’t see how they are as worthless as some say. Great indicators of overall ability? Probably not, but I think that goes for almost all stats, both advanced and basic.

by Mr. Sanchez on Feb 25, 2010 12:54 PM EST up reply actions  

Ok, I’ll take a crack at this. The SABR nerds’ explanation is that stats like ERA, BA, etc. are great explanatory stats- they describe what actually happened- but they are not good evaluative stats- they don’t accurately reflect a player’s actual skill set and thus should not be used when determining who is good and who isn’t. That’s not my stance, but it’s the one I read over and over from that side of the table. My stance is that these stats aren’t all in the same boat. Wins are absolutely useless- a function of luck and almost nothing else. ERA is not worth much in and of itself, and neither is batting average. However, couple ERA with something like BABIP and strikeout/walk totals, and it helps paint a much better picture of a pitcher (the SABR rebuttal is that that is a true statement, but that something like FIP is even better in that scenario than ERA because it “takes defense out of the equation.” I remain unconvinced as of yet to how fully these numbers can actually take out a human factor and still be reliable, which is why I’m only semi-sold on sabermetrics in general). Likewise, BA coupled with OBP, SLG, walk rate, line drive rate, etc. paints a great picture, but the average alone doesn’t really reveal much about a skill set ( See: Francoeur, Jeff, 2005-2007).

Hope that helps.

by J-Freak on Feb 25, 2010 1:03 PM EST up reply actions  

I'd say average is related to the skill of putting the bat on the ball...

although certainly other factors are involved whether that contact produces a hit or an out.

But the idea of FIP taking defense out of the equation making it therefore be a better indicator baffles me. Is there an instance, outside of batting practice, where the defense is actually out of the equation? For that fact alone, any time a P is on the hill in an actual game, defense is and always will be “in the equation”, so to remove it is going against the reality of the situation.

by Mr. Sanchez on Feb 25, 2010 1:45 PM EST up reply actions  

My thoughts exactly re: FIP. If they want defense taken out of it, let’s take everyone off the field except the pitcher and batter and play it dart-baseball style- Where the ball lands/rolls determines what kind of “hit” or out you get. Then FIP is justified. But as it stands I’ll take ERA over FIP (alongside some other stuff, of course, never by itself), becuase regardless what you tell me his “true” abilities are, unless he’s traded or signs somewhere new the pitcher you’re examining is going to go out there again next year in front of the SAME DEFENSE. So knowing what he and that defense have done for one another is handier than some ethereal skill he has that is being bolstered or hampered by his defense.

by J-Freak on Feb 25, 2010 4:54 PM EST up reply actions  

Exactly. I hate when people discount BA and acts like it’s useless. Sure OPS and SLG are important, but there’s a reason I want a guy with a high BA over a guy with a high OBP. Walks don’t score a runner from 2nd. Walks won’t lead to a misplay by the RF and turn a single into a man on 3rd with nobody out. This isn’t to say I’d ever take a guy with a .300 BA and .310 OBP over a guy with a .275 BA and .375 OBP but I’d take a guy hitting .320 anyday of the week with a guy OBPing .350

by Bobby Cocks on Feb 25, 2010 1:05 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

I’ll make a deal with you. I’ll take a team of Adam Dunn’s who have career batting averages like in the .230s and you can take a team full of Jeff Francoeurs or Garrett Andersons (even in his prime) and I guarantee that I win 90% of the games.

"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."

by justincredubil02 on Feb 25, 2010 1:55 PM EST up reply actions  

I'd love to take on a team of Adam Dunn, especially when they're in the field...

But did you read what the guy said regarding 300/310 vs 275/375?

He understands the difference between French and Dunn, but there is something to be said for actually getting the bat on the ball instead of taking walks (see Greg Norton 2008 vs. Greg Norton 2009).

by Mr. Sanchez on Feb 25, 2010 2:04 PM EST up reply actions  

Well, generally, when speaking about offensive production and the hypotheticals that follow, the defensive ability of the particular player(s) doesn’t really matter.

But, the biggest problem with your use of Greg Norton is that I didn’t say a team of Greg Norton’s who never make contact (at least, the 2009 version didn’t). I am saying that a team of Adam Dunns that is full of guys who can hit the ball and hit it hard, while maintaining a good OBP due to their ability to take a pitch is better than a team of guys who get more hits but make more outs.

"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."

by justincredubil02 on Feb 25, 2010 3:57 PM EST up reply actions  

You seem to be ignoring that...

he originally acknowledged what you are saying. See the following…

This isn’t to say I’d ever take a guy with a .300 BA and .310 OBP over a guy with a .275 BA and .375 OBP

by Mr. Sanchez on Feb 25, 2010 5:25 PM EST up reply actions  

And you seem to be ignoring the rest of his statement:

This isn’t to say I’d ever take a guy with a .300 BA and .310 OBP over a guy with a .275 BA and .375 OBP but I’d take a guy hitting .320 anyday of the week with a guy OBPing .350

Looking at only the BA of one and the OBP of the other is not a good way to go about this business.

"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."

by justincredubil02 on Feb 25, 2010 6:37 PM EST up reply actions  

I'd agree...

chances are if you got .320 with an ops in the .350s, the extra walks of the .275/.375 aren’t gonna make up the difference. Of course, it also depends on the individual player and things like slugging and base running.

by Mr. Sanchez on Feb 25, 2010 10:11 PM EST up reply actions  

Yeah that’s not taking it to the extreme or anything.

by Bobby Cocks on Feb 25, 2010 3:13 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

But you get the point. OBP in and of itself, just like any other stat, will not paint a good picture for you. However, not making outs is always the goal of an AB. If I have a team of guys that make outs at a .620 rate, and you have guys that make outs at a .690 rate, I am going to win more games than you.

Whether a guy walks or hits a HR doesn’t matter if the guy behind him is equally skilled at not making an out. However, in the less than 1 in 3 chance that one of your guys doesn’t make an out, the guy behind him has the odds stacked against him that he will drive the run in.

I mean, I get what you are saying – you like guys to knock other guys in when they are on base. I agree with that – it is the ideal outcome of the scenario. However, I’ll take my chances with guys who rarely get the ideal outcome, but get the second-best outcome a good percentage of the time.

"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."

by justincredubil02 on Feb 25, 2010 4:01 PM EST up reply actions  

ERA is as screwy as they come, as an earned run is a subjective matter in the case of an error (especially if there’s 2 outs!). Also, inherited runners screw up the stat to make it only good for a rough gage of how the pitcher is doing.

However, I do think that calling them worthless is a bit extreme, but a lot of the traditional stats paint a much fuzzier picture than the newer ones.

by soup du jour on Feb 25, 2010 3:45 PM EST up reply actions  

At the end of the year...

how many “unearned runs” are actually allowed? I’d assume that isn’t going to make a huge difference in numbers. Inherited runners, especially when talking relievers (See the Wall Puncher), I’ll grant you can make fuzziness. But when the ultimate job is to not allow runs, I’ll take Ps with low ERAs and low K rates over guys with high K rates and high ERAs all day, especially in terms of starters where they are less dependant on the situation upon entering the game.

by Mr. Sanchez on Feb 25, 2010 5:30 PM EST up reply actions  

2 reasons why BA is meaningless, or at least doesn’t mean a whole lot: broken-bat, bloop singles and screaming line-drive double-plays. How can you say that someone did something good when they only got a hit by accident or that they did something bad when they hit the ball really hard and got unlucky? A hitter has so little control over whether they get a hit that judging their worth or talent level based on BA seems really unfair, not to mention inaccurate. Just my $.02.

"…aren’t worthy enough to hold his (Pujols) ass cheeks apart while Playboy models wipe him with thousand dollar bills after he craps out the cure to whatever previously-incurable disease." by royhobbs 1/7/09

by buzzdeadwax on Feb 25, 2010 4:44 PM EST up reply actions  

Because the guy with the bloop single...

is on 1B, while the screaming double play just made 2 outs. It’s a part of the game that things like that happen, and I try to accept reality instead of look for ways around it.

by Mr. Sanchez on Feb 25, 2010 5:27 PM EST up reply actions  

But is the guy who got lucky with the blooper a better hitter than the guy that got out on the screaming LD? No. And that is what we are trying to point out.

"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."

by justincredubil02 on Feb 25, 2010 6:38 PM EST up reply actions  

Depends...

Chipper has had his share of bloop singles over the years. Gregor Blanco has hit some balls on the sweet spot only to go right to a defender. Again, it’s part of the game.

by Mr. Sanchez on Feb 25, 2010 10:09 PM EST up reply actions  

Those are exceptions to the rule and not the norm. Chipper is not a slap hitter or a broken bat single kind of guy – although he has had both happen to him before.

Sluggers can get infield hits, but they don’t rely on them to prop up their numbers like someone of Greg White’s caliber would have to do.

"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."

by justincredubil02 on Feb 25, 2010 11:43 PM EST up reply actions  

BA is still not meaningless. There is luck involved in all aspects of baseball .So if a guy hit .400 for the entire season it would still be meaningless?

by FitzFan on Feb 25, 2010 11:27 PM EST up reply actions  

No, because his OBP would be at least .400 – which is a very valuable thing. However, nobody has hit .400 in 50-some odd years, and it is doubtful if anyone will ever do it again.

Let’s look at this is a more realistic way – take someone like Jeff Francoeur whose batting average will be very close to his OBP. For his career, Jeff is a .271 hitter – fairly respectable, right? However, his OBP is only .311 – not good at all. In other words, he makes an out in 69% of his plate appearances.

Contrast that with someone else of similar power and batting average – Melky Cabrera (who actually has much less power). Melky is a career .269 hitter, but his OBP is .331 – still not very good. However, he still makes an out in only 67% of his plate appearances. That may seem like a statistically insignificant percentage compared to Frenchy’s, but it really does make a big difference – especially when stretched out over the course of 500 or 600 plate appearances.

There is probably a much better comparisson than Melky, but I am currently too lazy to spend 40 seconds looking one up. I think it is good enough to make my point though.

While batting average is not meaningless, when it is produced as the only argument in any presentation it loses its punch. Batting average can be very useful, and luck really isn’t the key on the negative side of it. It is using BA exclusively.

The same is true for any stat out there, whether it be one of the traditional stats or one of the new stats. We have to take them all in context, because we all know that 68% of the time statistics can say anything we want them to.

"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."

by justincredubil02 on Feb 25, 2010 11:53 PM EST up reply actions  

Comments For This Post Are Closed


User Tools

Welcome to the SB Nation blog about Atlanta Braves.

FanPosts

Community blog posts and discussion.

Recommended FanPosts

Ncclovebaseball_small
Feb Off Season / Off Topic

Recent FanPosts

Avatar_small
Talking Chop Free Agent Tracker
Small
The Not So Prestigious TC Fantasy Baseball League
Kingsizehomer_small
TC Fantasy Baseball Rd 5
791_small
If the Braves ever left Atlanta
Spo_bs_atlantabraves_1006_small
OT (kindof): 2012 Fantasy Baseball Rankings
0d5f240abb4da413f70e6a7067006f9c_small
upcoming season
Small
2012 Minor league staffs
Small
Baseball > Football. George Carlin explains why
Family_photos_004_small
What to do after Chipper is gone?
Small
Wren and 2010 (that rhymes)

+ New FanPost All FanPosts >


Managers

Gondeee_small gondeee

Editors

Heis3_small Scott Coleman

Sid_small SCrebel10

Authors

My_hair_is_a_bird-257x300_small yondaime4

Dsc01731_small royhobbs

Mccann__brian_small cbwilk

Chris_and_harrison_at_braves_game_small Atlanta_Chris

Avatar_small TonyAlmeyda

12475953_small Jacob Peterson

Prado-walk-off-diamondbacks_small moorebraves

Moderators

Ale0p82caaer6rx_braves_patch_3_small HEYJUDE