MLB Network
by I Saw Buzz Beaned on Feb 17, 2010 12:44 PM EST
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I was watching the MLB Network last night and heard something that I thought might make a decent discussion / debate.
Costas was talking to Cal Ripken Jr. and in the interview Ripken was discussing ethics in the game. He happened to mention that he was not a fan of the hidden ball trick. In fact, if someone other than the pitcher had the ball and an opposing runner was on second, he would tell the player to stay put because so-and-so had the ball. His theory was that it was amateurish and borderline cheating. And that he would rather build more goodwill in future discussions with the player as far as strategy and info on other players. He also mentioned that he refused to check the catcher's signs when he was on second, but it was OK if he was able to discern the next pitch because the pitcher or catcher was tipping pitches.
My disussion point is twofold. Is the hidden ball trick and stealing signs or cheating? And if a player on your team ratted you out to the opposition, how would you feel about it?
It reminded me of a play that Yunel made in his rookie season. I don't remember the exact circumstances, but Escobar caught someone sleeping and threw them out. I tend to consider these as "heads up" plays and think that they are a great break from the norm. You see the hidden ball trick once every 15-20 years or so and I don't think that these hurt the game in any way. In the same way that the pitcher fakes the throw to third and wheels to first to try and catch the runner off guard. It works every 5 years or so. These plays remind me of playing the game as a kid and brings some fun into what has become a game of money, agents and status. I think it would piss me off if an infielder with the team I was on told the opposing runner that another player had the ball. What do you think?
This FanPost does not express the views or opinions of Talking Chop.
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Single greatest play I have ever witnessed
I can’t remember the specific year, but it was in the 80’s. The Miami Hurricanes were playing in the College World Series. There was a man on first and the Miami pitcher was on the mound, though his foot was not on the rubber, he kept looking back at the runner as if he was VERY worried about him. The runner started taking his lead, even though the pitcher was not set which was his first mistake, and all of a sudden the pitcher wheels and throws to first. The first baseman dove over the runner as if trying to block an errant throw and the entire Miami bench came out of the dugout pointing down the line and yelling. The opposing player jumped up looked around, saw the right fielder running to the foul line as if he were chasing the ball down, and broke for second base. About half way to second the pitcher lobs the ball to the shortstop for an easy out.
Granted this is very different from stealing signs or hiding the ball and doesn’t really have much to do with your point. You just reminded me of this play and I had to share.
You aren’t the czar of typographic emphasis
+1
"SIGN PUJOLS OR FIRE WREN" ~ Swo12bv
by Smoltz's Beard on Feb 18, 2010 11:19 AM EST up reply actions
Poor Griffey Jr…..he had no clue…
Pujols is NOT God.... sure he'll hit .350, hit 50 bombs, and drive in a 125....but then again...so will Heyward..
by lemke2blauser2bream on Feb 18, 2010 4:06 PM EST up reply actions
I'm gonna steal second, I'm gonna steal third, and then I'm gonna steal home.
"If you were going to make a Mount Rushmore of managers, Bobby's one of them."
-Mike Scioscia
by The Keith Lockhart Era on Feb 18, 2010 8:02 PM EST up reply actions
Miami?!?! in the 80s?!?! Do something sketchy?!?! No really go on.
But yea, now that that is out of system. Yea, thats pretty cool
I don't need the Cat Lady to throw cats at me to let me know she's crazy!
by McCann and McWill on Feb 17, 2010 6:02 PM EST up reply actions
See, I love that kind of stuff! I wouldn’t want the game to to turn into a circus or sideshow, but every now and again, it reminds you of why you played the game when you were a kid.
by I Saw Buzz Beaned on Feb 17, 2010 1:12 PM EST reply actions
I heard Harold Reynolds say the other day that “if it happens between the lines it’s not cheating” and I agree with that. If the guys on the other team are too dumb to cover their signs well or dumb enough to fall for a silly trick, that’s their fault. I’m not out there to make friends with the other team, I’m there to win for my team. I used to love it when a catcher or first baseman tried to talk to me and I got to tell them “shut the hell up”.
As far as a teammate ratting me out to an opposing player, man, we’ve got ways to deal with that.
I wrote a novel, it's about baseball, you should buy it: https://www.createspace.com/3407939
www.dropoutproductions.com
I don’t know, I say why not? You shouldn’t be able to use vasoline or any kind of external thing, but if it comes from your body it should be Ok. Hitters spit on their hands then grab the bat, which is essentially the same thing. If they’re gonna let a hitter get an unfair advantage by wearing body armor then they should allow a guy to spit on the ball or tear up the seams a little.
I wrote a novel, it's about baseball, you should buy it: https://www.createspace.com/3407939
www.dropoutproductions.com
I like it, CB.
I too long for the glory days of Burleigh Grimes.
"If you were going to make a Mount Rushmore of managers, Bobby's one of them."
-Mike Scioscia
by The Keith Lockhart Era on Feb 17, 2010 7:14 PM EST up reply actions
"If you were going to make a Mount Rushmore of managers, Bobby's one of them."
-Mike Scioscia
by The Keith Lockhart Era on Feb 17, 2010 7:16 PM EST up reply actions
Nah, that's not cheating.
If a player is dumb enough to not know where the ball is and get tagged out, that’s his fault. Trick plays are just quirks of the beautiful game of baseball and should be allowed.
"Sometimes I wonder what'd it be like to be outside and not hear the birds chirping...I think it'd be kind of nice."
by alligatorimpersonator on Feb 17, 2010 2:08 PM EST reply actions
If a basketball player fools a defender with a pump fake, is that cheating? Of course not. The hidden ball trick is just a cooler version of the same thing.
"Yeah, and I have an enchanted jock strap." -- Karl Karlson
by Jacob Peterson on Feb 18, 2010 12:13 PM EST up reply actions
That’s a good way to think about it. I think all of those games in a row got to Cal’s head a little bit…
"Sometimes I wonder what'd it be like to be outside and not hear the birds chirping...I think it'd be kind of nice."
by alligatorimpersonator on Feb 18, 2010 3:34 PM EST up reply actions
I still loved the minor league catcher...
…who threw the errant potato over the third baseman’s head and was sitting at home plate waiting on the runner with the ball in his glove. Now that was cheating, but it was funny as shit.
haha link?
"Sometimes I wonder what'd it be like to be outside and not hear the birds chirping...I think it'd be kind of nice."
by alligatorimpersonator on Feb 17, 2010 3:33 PM EST up reply actions
I can't find any video...
…apparently it is tough to find since it happened in 1987. Here’s an article about what happened by the organization that holds the actual potato. Link: http://www.baseballreliquary.org/Bresnahan.htm
While the catcher was released the following day (he was going nowhere, batting .140), the minor league team retired his jersey the following year.
In 2007, on the 20th anniversary, he was invited back to Williamsport (where he played when he pulled the stunt) and threw out the first potato. More linkage: http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news?slug=jp-bresnahanpotato083107&prov=yhoo&type=lgns
Awesome.
"If you were going to make a Mount Rushmore of managers, Bobby's one of them."
-Mike Scioscia
by The Keith Lockhart Era on Feb 18, 2010 8:03 PM EST up reply actions
Hahaha thanks.
"Lou Gehrig had to play in 2,130 consecutive games and hit .340 for his number to be retired, and all I had to do was bat .140 and throw a potato."
"Sometimes I wonder what'd it be like to be outside and not hear the birds chirping...I think it'd be kind of nice."
by alligatorimpersonator on Feb 19, 2010 11:09 AM EST up reply actions
I think
The “Ironman” is looking for a coaching job…ball tricks aside, I’m with you CB and I think Cal is too much of a ……..(fill in the blanks to coach). Don’t get me wrong he was one hell of a player..I saw him many times when I was stationed in DC but I don’t ever remember him getting tossed out of a game…So, A Bobby C…he would not be (Damn that rymed…I should write a song!)
I got really turned off a few weeks ago when i saw what a money grubber Ripken has become. It’s not cool. I don’t like seeing a guy who I’ve always thought of as the greatest ambassador for the game turn into a shill, even if he’s shilling himself.
I wrote a novel, it's about baseball, you should buy it: https://www.createspace.com/3407939
www.dropoutproductions.com
I agree. Baseball can make the player, but does not necessarily make the man.
by I Saw Buzz Beaned on Feb 18, 2010 10:07 AM EST up reply actions
Elaboration, CB? I feel like I missed something somewhere.
What sort of nefarious things has Cal been up to?
"If you were going to make a Mount Rushmore of managers, Bobby's one of them."
-Mike Scioscia
by The Keith Lockhart Era on Feb 18, 2010 8:07 PM EST up reply actions
Nothing nefarious, he’s just running these coaching clinics on Saturdays and Sundays around the country and charging 100 bucks a pop so that people can get coaching advice from him, his brother, and a few other former Major Leaguers, none of whom have actually ever coached. He’s got a whole slew of merchandise, clothing, etc that he’s charging a ton for. I guess there’s nothing wrong with him making money off his name, but a few friends and I went there and tried to get his autograph and he was like, “Why didn’t you buy a ticket to the clinic?” Uh, we’re not coaches… “I don’t care.” Very sad to hear out of a guy who used to regularly stay late to make sure everyone got an autograph.
I wrote a novel, it's about baseball, you should buy it: https://www.createspace.com/3407939
www.dropoutproductions.com
Weird.
Seems like he shouldn’t be hurting for cash or anything. Do some of the proceeds go to charity or is he just raking it all in?
"If you were going to make a Mount Rushmore of managers, Bobby's one of them."
-Mike Scioscia
by The Keith Lockhart Era on Feb 18, 2010 11:16 PM EST up reply actions
Could he be a coach, and own minor league teams?
I know he owns at least one, if not multiple.
by Mr. Sanchez on Feb 18, 2010 10:06 AM EST up reply actions
He owns (along with other folks) the Aberdeen Iron Birds and the Charlotte Stone Crabs. I don’t really see why he couldn’t be a coach, there’s not much of a conflict of interest with minor league teams. Even if anybody thought there was you could just make sure he didn’t work in the same league as those teams.
I wrote a novel, it's about baseball, you should buy it: https://www.createspace.com/3407939
www.dropoutproductions.com
I think he owns the Augusta green Jackets too..
but wouldn’t the conflict of interest be his relations to other team’s players?
by Mr. Sanchez on Feb 18, 2010 10:58 AM EST up reply actions
No, he doesn’t have any relation to them. Owners in the Minors don’t really get to know or even care about the players, because they’ll be moving on soon enough anyway. It’s not like the guys actually play for the Iron Birds or the Stone Crabs, they play for the Orioles and the Rays.
I wrote a novel, it's about baseball, you should buy it: https://www.createspace.com/3407939
www.dropoutproductions.com
I’m not a fan of the hidden ball trick but i don’t think it should be outlawed or frowned upon in anyway…..Cal probably fell for it once somewhere in his 35 years of playing the game and from that day on was not in favor of trick plays….lol….
Pujols is NOT God.... sure he'll hit .350, hit 50 bombs, and drive in a 125....but then again...so will Heyward..
by lemke2blauser2bream on Feb 18, 2010 4:12 PM EST reply actions
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