Who Would You Trade
by gondeee on Nov 5, 2010 11:39 AM EDT
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PrintThere's nothing scheduled today, so I thought it would be fun to ask one of those crazy trade/rosterbation questions. This week you've been reading all about the Braves outstanding starting pitching prospects here on Talking Chop (great work by CB and Matt). Two weeks ago you read about the poor state of the Braves outfield (except for right field). If the Braves are to improve the latter, they may have to do it at the expense of the former.
This 'who would you trade question' focuses on those two aspects of the organization and asks, "would you trade Julio Teheran for Colby Rasmus?"
There it is. A possible franchise starting pitcher for a possible franchise center fielder. Vote and discuss.
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He’s the one prospect I wouldn’t let go. Saw this year with SF that a few dominant young starters can win you a World Series, so Teheran stays if I was GM.
Twitter: @Ben_Duronio
I think they also showed with Torres and Ross that productive outfielders can be found. Rasmus would be ideal for this team, but they could live with a defensive center fielder and a decent left field platoon. As bad as the outfield was this year, still fifth most runs in N.L.
Twitter: @Ben_Duronio
That is a very difficult model to have success with. The ’95 Braves won a World Series that way and in ’96 they had a chance but the bullpen killed them. The Braves never won another World Series game with this model.
No way man this angers me
Stop trading away our top pitching crop to the Cards. Cards would make that deal in a min, I agree completely with Ben above. Now way trade Teheran for anyone completely he is just to good and remember huddy is older and D. Lowe is as well. You will be sorry in two years in your trade Teheran, Delgado, or even Adorys (acquired from the Yankees a year ago). Of the three if I had to give up one it would be Adorys the centerpiece to the Yankees trade for us. We don’t need another situation similar to what happened with JD Drew for A. Wainwright. Great trade for the Cards ho hum for ATL.
Braves need to hang on to their pitching and find the best OF they can for the money they have. KEEP OUR TOP ELITE YOUNG GUNS DID ANYONE NOT WATCH THE “WS” um Giants far pretty well with their young gun pitchers. I would luv have Rasmus but it has to be at our price not the Cards. PERIOD !
by Holty_Panthers_Fan on Nov 5, 2010 4:05 PM EDT up reply actions
i see a lot of people just basing their opinions of this trade on the Adam Wainwright trade
but that trade has nothing to do with this one. I understand that impulse. Believe me, I was weary of the Cards trading with the A’s again after the Dan Haren disaster but hey, Matt Holliday for Brett Wallace and prospects hasn’t worked out too poorly now.
If knowledge is the key, then just show me the lock.
Got the scrawny legs but I move just like Lou Brock.
the worst part is that, honestly, the trade was perfect for both teams…both teams got what they wanted…we wanted a power bat in RF who could help us offensively…we got that…the Cards got a prospect that turned out….it wasn’t like either side should really be upset…(obviously the Cards arnt upset, but Braves fans who are are missing the point of prospects, which is u use them to improve your big league club, which sometimes means trading them).
"No. Lonely people mixing with one another? Breeding? Creating an even lonelier generation? You're not even allowing natural selection do its work. Pssh. You're like the guy who invented the seat belt."
Dwight Schrute
Keep it one Subject
Whether you like my post or not let’s trade to be a little mature okay. Personal attacks or whatever have you is not what this is all about. Don’t like my post then don’t respond or post on it.
by Holty_Panthers_Fan on Nov 6, 2010 3:55 PM EDT up reply actions
Agree
Julio Teheran is to valuable. He’s untouchable, unless we get Albert Pujols. And please, not for Rasmus who had 1 or 2 solid years. (A La Nate McClouth,)
So Rasmus having one to two solid years...
…out of two is worse than Teheran who has had 0 out of 0 solid years?
Just so you know...
… it would be hard, but I would do it.
by gondeee on Nov 5, 2010 11:41 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
This.
I’d hate to do it, but at the end of the day, we can cover up the loss of Teheran better than we can account for what will be an elite player at an elite position for years to come.
If we were trade for Rasmus, regardless of who we give up, the number 1 priority has to be signing him to a long-term deal. Lock it up, make sure that we’re not just getting 3-4 years out of the guy. Extend him to at least the length of time we’d have control of Teheran.
-C
It’s rough to sit through these games and not have someone that can’t hit a Ball?
I agree
…contingent on a long-term deal - and at his age, that would mean something in the 6-9 year range. Like it or not, Julio hasn’t pitched a day in the majors and pitchers are fragile. As elite as this guy is, you still have to weigh a 50-50% shot of reaching his potential.
That said, while our pitching is still studly – imagine Prado – Heyward – Freeman – Rasmus – Mac …. all in a row for multiple years.
Bobby Cox, advising Jeff Francoeur about being thrown out of a game: "you’ll probably have to write a $500 check. Or you can do what I do, write a $10,000 one and tell them when it runs out, let me know."
Why is it just Teheran?...
Couldn’t Jurrjens AND Delgado do the same? I’d rather give up those two than Teheran, so no deal. I’d rather give up Hanson than Teheran.
http://sportsandgrits.blogspot.com/
Why would you rather give up Hanson?
Hanson was as big a prospect as Teheran is. He has only used one year of team control and has progressed since his prospect days as he has 1.5 years of very good major league performance. Best realistic case scenario for Teheran is that he is as good as Hanson.
I don’t think that’s a straight up one for one deal. I would think the Cards would have to throw in something else.
by king of games on Nov 5, 2010 12:14 PM EDT up reply actions
They wouldn't do it straight up...
…so getting them to throw in extra players isn’t going to happen. The two years we lose in Teheran (Rasmus has 2 years MLB experience and hence is two years closer to free agency) is offset in the fact that Rasmus is far less risky in that he is a hitter and he has performed well at the major league level already. We have to remember that Rasmus was just as good a prospect a few years back as Teheran is now.
Rasmus hasn’t been THAT great in the majors, has he even made an ASG?
by king of games on Nov 5, 2010 1:03 PM EDT up reply actions
He has been very good in the majors.
His hitting was just a shade below Heyward’s this year. Things like AS Game appearances that are based on fickle things like the performance for a couple of months, name recognition, and the whims of homeristic fans really mean nothing in the equation.
3rd OPS, behind Hamilton and CarGo
4th SLG
5th OBP
2nd BB% (good plate discipline)
4th ISO
3rd wOBA
Pretty good last year, and he’s only 24.
-C
It’s rough to sit through these games and not have someone that can’t hit a Ball?
For CF...
Sorry, didn’t mention that.
-C
It’s rough to sit through these games and not have someone that can’t hit a Ball?
Neither CarGo nor Hamilton...
…played enough in center to be “qualifying” centerfielders—-both played a lot of left (and Hamilton missed the last month). Yeah, it is cheesy, because both CarGo and Hamilton are perfectly capable of playing center, and I am guilty of doing it purposefully because I knew it when I posted it, but it is still true.
Fan voting of an all star game
is not a good way to rate a players value.
Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
Second base….I’ve played second base, how hard can it be? -TLR
Also, Dave Concepcion.
by RiverRat on Nov 5, 2010 2:44 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
It would be a terrible idea to trade Teheran for Rasmus.
Let’s not get to crazy about Rasmus. He reminds me a lot of Nate McLouth. Would you trade a potential number 1 starter for a Nate McLouth type player? You would have to be insane to do so. Teheran is untouchable in my opinion. Jurrjens doesn’t have much longer with this team. He is a Scott Boras client and he would want us to break the bank to keep him. If we had to trade anyone I would trade J.J. for Rasmus. Just think of having a guy like Teheran in your lineup for multiple years and only paying him 400K until he gets arbitration. If we traded Teheran it would be one of the worst moves for the Braves in the past 2 decades.
by BravesFanScout on Nov 5, 2010 2:42 PM EDT up reply actions
except for the fact that McLouth is below avg in Cf defensively. and Rasmus is well above avg in CF….and the fact that Rasmus has equal OBP skills as McLouth and equal ability to steal bases (and that is with McLouth’s ceiling and where Rasmus is right now…he could get better)…and the fact that Rasmus can be a consistent 30HR guy, where McLouth is more of a 20 HR guy….
but other than the fact that their very different offensively and defensively they are the same.
AS I am now done being a douche….what makes them similar in your eyes…? they both strike out at similar rates, but other than being white CF they are very similar.
"No. Lonely people mixing with one another? Breeding? Creating an even lonelier generation? You're not even allowing natural selection do its work. Pssh. You're like the guy who invented the seat belt."
Dwight Schrute
Dear lord, Nate McClouth?
jesus almighty.
If knowledge is the key, then just show me the lock.
Got the scrawny legs but I move just like Lou Brock.
I think I agree with this
but it would be extremely hard for me to make this decision. Yea, I don’t know what I would do.
projected #1 starters...
are few and far between. i wouldnt trade julio for anyone. i salivate thinking of a 2013 and beyond rotation of hanson, teheran, hudson, medlen, and vizcaino/minor.
Smelky is not a good player. Noone can convince me otherwise.
yea rosterbation
is rotationbation
in braves country
Thank you
Colby has the chance to be decent but Julio can be great
by crsosa on Nov 5, 2010 2:17 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
What they said!
Teheran for Rasmus….Just say no.
"Just because we fall from a different tree,
doesn't mean we're not created equally"
Medlen will probably be a setup man, and a good one. I don’t think he’ll be starting.
Most likely Hanson, Teheran, Minor, Beachy, Another Prospect, JJ or Hudson.
Not for the top prospects
Jurrjens I would be ok with it but Teheran has so much potential that I could just not sleep well knowing that we might be giving away our ace for the future. Jurrjens is very good pitcher but not an Ace and those are hard to find so if we have one we should not let him go.
I don't think trading our top pitching prospect for a top outfielder is worth it.
I’d be willing to part with another pitching prospect, but not Teheran. #1 starter > any other position.
If you think a #1 starter was far greater than any other position...
…does that mean, if the contracts were the same, that you would trade Heyward for King Felix?
The only player
I’d even consider trading Heyward for would be Evan Longoria
Baseball is like church. Many attend but few understand.
Except
That we don’t really need a dominant #1 given our current pitching situation.
Baseball is like church. Many attend but few understand.
no im petty sure its mute…like a point you don’t need to say…because you are a mute?
get it
;)
"No. Lonely people mixing with one another? Breeding? Creating an even lonelier generation? You're not even allowing natural selection do its work. Pssh. You're like the guy who invented the seat belt."
Dwight Schrute
i would most definitely trade Tehran for Eva Longoria! She is freaking HOT!!
by HeyMikey on Nov 5, 2010 4:53 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Also
I’m not sure how this may come out but I’ll give it go…
We don’t need pitching though so we can be stingy to an extent. We need outfielders.
Now if we didn’t have good solid pitching I would trade for a dominant #1 in a heartbeat. As long as we got the dominant number 1 locked up 4+ years.
No.
Because an everyday player is more valuable than a guy who pitches once every 5 days.
'Terrible preview...pretty weak, didn't learn anything new. pretty sad." - mastermike
by Scott Coleman on Nov 5, 2010 2:41 PM EDT up reply actions
An everyday player...
Won’t effect the outcome of every game. He can have off days where other everyday players can pick him up.
A dominant #1 can effect the outcome every 5th game, and if truly dominant can have a better effect then an everyday player. If you gotta guy in your rotation that you can count on to win 20+ games is a huge bonus. Even these pitchers may have off days, but it won’t be as many as everyday players given the sample size.
A superstar, which Jason Heyward will become, effects the outcome of most of his games.
'Terrible preview...pretty weak, didn't learn anything new. pretty sad." - mastermike
by Scott Coleman on Nov 5, 2010 3:15 PM EDT up reply actions
Most?
Nope, a lot yes. Though he also has to rely on his teammates to either hit him in or get on base for him to hit them in.
A dominant #1 can control the game all by himself.
A dominant #1 can control the game all by himself.
Yes, every 5th day.
IMHO, there’s no right or wrong answer here. A superstar hitter and superstar pitcher are both going to be highly beneficial to your team. I’d take the hitter since he plays every day, but a case can certainly be made for the starter.
'Terrible preview...pretty weak, didn't learn anything new. pretty sad." - mastermike
by Scott Coleman on Nov 5, 2010 3:24 PM EDT up reply actions
And a superstar hitter won't effect every game
There are going to be down games.
And you are right. There is no wrong answer just one preference over another.
There is no wrong answer just one preference over another
This statement is false. It’s pretty much statistically proven that the “superstar” hitter we be more valuable than the ace the vast majority of the time over the course of a season. This isn’t even taking the injury factor into account.
Baseball is like church. Many attend but few understand.
Lets keep our true goal im mind
That is to win the World Series, and not juts make it there!
A star outfielder is better during the course of a season, but a star pitcher is more valuable in the playoffs. Remember that a pitcher effects the outcome of 1 out of every 3 (or so) games in the playoffs.
compare, if you will
the following two lists
Hitters
Pitchers
Note carefully which list has more value. Compare any given ranking on the hitters list to the corresponding ranking on the pitchers list. This is obviously a very non-scientific way of looking at the relative values between hitters and pitchers but you can clearly see that among the best of the best, especially over the course of a career, pitchers do not add up.
If knowledge is the key, then just show me the lock.
Got the scrawny legs but I move just like Lou Brock.
There have been more fielders then pitchers.
Having a superstar pitcher is more valuable then having a superstar hitter.
Plus pitcher’s primes aren’t as long as hitters primes.
Then put 3-5 of them together...
which appears to be our plan, and you get it a lot more than every 5th day.
http://sportsandgrits.blogspot.com/
Take a look
At some WAR figures from over the last 10 years. Pedro and Greinke are the only two pitchers that were more valuable than any hitter in that given year.
Baseball is like church. Many attend but few understand.
He was a total douchebag
but Pedro was so filthy back in the day.
'Terrible preview...pretty weak, didn't learn anything new. pretty sad." - mastermike
by Scott Coleman on Nov 5, 2010 3:30 PM EDT up reply actions
That's one stat.
I don’t get into to deep with advanced stats. So I can’t argue to much about them.
Though I will take a dominant #1 pitching 30+ games a year giving up only 1-2 runs if any a game though.
Even if you already have
a rotation full of them, and a lack of depth in position players?
In 2012, for example, who’s going to be the rotation? Lowe and Huddy will probably be gone by then, but if you take them out, as well as JT, you still have: JJ, Hanson, Minor, Beachy, Ortegano, possibly Delgado, and/or Vizcaino in the mix. I’m sure I’m missing a few there as well.
Oh, and you’ll have Rasmus in the mix in CF under this scenario.
Eddie V
by DolphinNation on Nov 5, 2010 3:39 PM EDT up reply actions
So am I, and
I understand your point of view on that because every time I see Wainright throw a gem, I wanna puke, but this is an entirely different scenario. JD Drew and the other dude (sorry, forgot his name) were free agents the year after…Rasmus is under team control for half a decade.
Eddie V
by DolphinNation on Nov 5, 2010 3:44 PM EDT up reply actions
Agree
On locking up Rasmus will be better then the Wainright trade, but…
I still rather keep our #1 pitching prospect.
Again, totally understood
but we have 3 potential #1’s in the minors (see also Delgado, Randall and Vizcaino, Arodys).
Eddie V
by DolphinNation on Nov 5, 2010 3:48 PM EDT up reply actions
the problem is your are assuming WAR is an end all be all, which it clearly is not.
"No. Lonely people mixing with one another? Breeding? Creating an even lonelier generation? You're not even allowing natural selection do its work. Pssh. You're like the guy who invented the seat belt."
Dwight Schrute
As I said a few posts below
I pointed out that one stat certainly isn’t conclusive research. I’d need time to do more research on the various stats for determining value of a player, but I suspect the results will be similar.
Baseball is like church. Many attend but few understand.
What do you go on?
Intuition? I agree that you can’t rely 100% on stats, but when there’s this consistent of a trend with multiple different stats over 15+ seasons it’s ignorant not to consider the stats.
Baseball is like church. Many attend but few understand.
"How do you measure yourself against other golfers?"
Eddie V
by DolphinNation on Nov 5, 2010 3:46 PM EDT up reply actions
In this case I'm a firm believer in
Great pitching and good defense > overpowered offense.
I think having a great #1 does more for a team then can be measured in stats. If you gotta guy who can go out and chuck gems nearly ever game you know you can break a losing streak, or continue one.
King Felix won 13 games in Seattle who’s offense scored just over 500 runs, but I bet every 5th game they were confident they could win. Replace Felix with a superstar hitter. Now that confidence might be at more games but one position player can’t put you in a position to win a game like a pitcher can.
Hang on bro
You just contradicted yourself. Take Felix for example. Dude was filthy all season, yet he had 13 wins, lead the league in K’s and I believe was in the top 3 in ERA. Put him on a team like the Yankees, who actually have an offense, and he wins 25 games. Maybe the Yankees lineup is stretching the analogy, but you understand where I’m going here. You have to be able to score runs these days.
Eddie V
by DolphinNation on Nov 5, 2010 3:56 PM EDT up reply actions
I agree with that.
I agree you do have to score runs. That’s the way you win.
I was commenting more on what a #1 starter and true ace means to a team then a superstar everyday player.
Are we in the playoffs if we replace Huddy with Rasmus this year?
I completely
Agree with you that pitching and defense is the way to go about building a winning team. But the debate what in the individual value of a great hitter versus the value of an ace.
Also, we aren’t discussing the Mariner’s specific situation. I’m not positive, but I believe stats such as WAR don’t take run support into effect. I’m positive WPA doesn’t, so that point is null and void.
Baseball is like church. Many attend but few understand.
I only brought it up becaus he was mentioned earlier.
In the end I will always take the ace over great hitter. Whether stats prove me wrong or not it’s just my logic. Which is certainly flawed sometimes.
Fair enough
I can definitely respect your opinion as long as you know it contradicts the stats.
Baseball is like church. Many attend but few understand.
I wasn't aware...
of the pitcher’s ability to make his hitters put runs on the scoreboard to help him out when he gives up one run over 7 innings.
Someone should teach Hanson how to do this, it’d be a real help moving forward…
-C
It’s rough to sit through these games and not have someone that can’t hit a Ball?
Great lets
Have a staff full of #4-5’s but get 3-4 superstar hitters and have a homerun derby with other teams.
I’d prefer good pitching.
I'm not saying pitching isn't valuable.
I’m just saying that one person alone cannot dictate the outcome of a game. Maybe a great hitting pitcher could once in a blue moon, but it’s rare that only one person wins it or loses it for a team over the course of a nine-inning contest.
The notion that a pitcher (barring the aforementioned slugger of a starting pitcher), can do so is a misnomer.
-C
It’s rough to sit through these games and not have someone that can’t hit a Ball?
Not every nine inning contest, but
A pitcher has the most control out of any other player out there.
Not to be a grammar National Socialist, but...
Usage notes
The term misnomer is sometimes used autologically as misnomer of “something asserted not to be true; a myth or mistaken belief”, as in the following example:
“It’s a misnomer that engineers can’t write.”
O but I went to GA Tech, and I can tell you that engineers actually cannot write…haha
by forgotten_glory on Nov 6, 2010 10:07 AM EDT up reply actions
show evidence about this or stop using it as justification for anything, ever… its a ridiculous point
"No. Lonely people mixing with one another? Breeding? Creating an even lonelier generation? You're not even allowing natural selection do its work. Pssh. You're like the guy who invented the seat belt."
Dwight Schrute
It’s my opinion.
'Terrible preview...pretty weak, didn't learn anything new. pretty sad." - mastermike
by Scott Coleman on Nov 5, 2010 3:15 PM EDT up reply actions
to add on...
I’ll take a superstar hitter over a superstar pitcher any day.
'Terrible preview...pretty weak, didn't learn anything new. pretty sad." - mastermike
by Scott Coleman on Nov 5, 2010 3:16 PM EDT up reply actions
that doesnt help clarify why you are right or wrong…and you don’t need to tell me its your opinion…you respond as if because it is your opinion it cannot be wrong, its just an opinion…but your opinion can be wrong, as mine could…
The problem with the whole a pitcher only pitches every 5th day nonsense is that it assumes a pitchers impact and a batters impact on a game are equal, when they clearly are not. A pitcher faces around 30-35 batters per appearance (just a rough estimate). whereas a batter only impacts 4-5 ABs…now of course he does field, but so does the pitcher (although generally a position player will have more defensive plays per game played, so you have to favor the position player, but its not an overwhelming impact)…
so even though pithcers are in drastically less games, they are directly responsbile for more outcomes per game (the biggest thing is baseball is getting outs, because they are finite, you need 27 of them)…a batter only has 405 opportunities to not make an out whereas a pitcher has 30 some opportunities to get a batter out.
Now i don’t want to make it seem like i think pticher’s are more valuable because i don’t think they are. I think their value is about equal. But more research needs to be done on this before anyone really understands value of hitters v pithers…(as i have mentioned I dont think WAR works when comparing pitchers to hitters, it only works when comparing like players)
"No. Lonely people mixing with one another? Breeding? Creating an even lonelier generation? You're not even allowing natural selection do its work. Pssh. You're like the guy who invented the seat belt."
Dwight Schrute
by Swo12bv on Nov 5, 2010 3:48 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I definitely see where you’re coming from. Would you argue that there’s no stat that efficiently compares hitters and pitchers? Just curious.
Baseball is like church. Many attend but few understand.
no i really have a degree of distrust of any stat that compares hitters and pitchers…what they are doing is so different its hard to measure against each other, as i kind of detailed above thier impacts are so different in terms of what they are doing.
I really want to emphasize that I don’t know if pitchers are more valuable, in terms of production, than hitter or vice versa, and thats kinda the point I dont think we can know, unless someone has some calculation above my pay grade.
I think WAR is am amaing stat, but i really don’t like using it to compare pitchers and hitters, because WAR is based on how valauble a pitcher is compared to other pitchers…there are so many variable that change once you start comparing hitters and pitchers.
"No. Lonely people mixing with one another? Breeding? Creating an even lonelier generation? You're not even allowing natural selection do its work. Pssh. You're like the guy who invented the seat belt."
Dwight Schrute
This was well put. I get your point about comparing the hitters an pitchers and how difficult of a process it is. I’m definitely no expert on sabermetrics and am trying to learn more about the calculations of the stats as I go. Would you make the same argument about WPA? I could see how you could make the same points about how drastically different the roles of hitters and pitchers are, but I think WPA might be a better tool in comparison. Still not a complete statistic by any stretch though.
Baseball is like church. Many attend but few understand.
Ya I wouldn’t trust WPA either, but i think it definitely is more appropriate for this discussion…For reference there isnt a single pitcher near the top of the list for WPA…so maybe there is more credence to the idea that hitters impact the game more than a pitcher. But its far from definitive, although it probably is themost convincing thing i have ever seen.
and i am still relatively new to the sabremetrics, as is evidence below by Yakker calling me out for screwing up.
"No. Lonely people mixing with one another? Breeding? Creating an even lonelier generation? You're not even allowing natural selection do its work. Pssh. You're like the guy who invented the seat belt."
Dwight Schrute
WPA is not really a stat worth using.
For example, a mediocre Fernando Rodney had a higher WPA than Wagner in 2010.
That being said, I agree with Swo12bv that a superstar hitter is better than a superstar pitcher. I base it solely on injury risk. Every pitcher risks being out for a year with TJ surgery every pitch he throws. That being said, you need both.
i never said that superstar hitters are better than superstar pitchers… i have been pretty vocal in saying we don’t know who is more valuable…
also in this argument injury attrition is not pertinent, we are talking strictly about which players affect the game more. so injury doesnt come into play.
"No. Lonely people mixing with one another? Breeding? Creating an even lonelier generation? You're not even allowing natural selection do its work. Pssh. You're like the guy who invented the seat belt."
Dwight Schrute
I know Wagner was pretty damn good, but I can’t say whether there’s something too Rodney’s WPA (got out of a ton of big jams/whatever) because I didn’t really see him pitch at all this year.
Baseball is like church. Many attend but few understand.
my problem with WPA.. unless I am misunderstanding it….you get a postive WPA if you put urself into a huge jam and then manage to get out of it. Which is kinda of Rodney’s M.O. whereas Wagner just shuts teams down and never really gets in sticky situations, leaving him with a lower WPA.
I could be completely misinterrupting WPA.
"No. Lonely people mixing with one another? Breeding? Creating an even lonelier generation? You're not even allowing natural selection do its work. Pssh. You're like the guy who invented the seat belt."
Dwight Schrute
That's not my understanding of WPA
and again, I’m no sabermetrics junkie either so I could be misinterpreting as well.
“WPA is the difference in win expectancy (WE) between the start of the play and the end of the play” -Fangraphs
From this definition I gather that Rodney walking/giving up hits to get himself into a jam lowers his WPA with each batter. Therefore, “getting out of jams” wouldn’t add extra value unless he’s cleaning up the jams created by other pitchers.
Baseball is like church. Many attend but few understand.
For the record
The only pitcher to record a higher WAR than any hitter since 2000 was Greinke in ‘09. Not that this is conclusive research…..but I’d say it shows the best hitter is almost always more valuable than the best pitcher.
Baseball is like church. Many attend but few understand.
this isn't true
but pitchers are less valuable than hitters due to attrition rates.
If knowledge is the key, then just show me the lock.
Got the scrawny legs but I move just like Lou Brock.
Yep!
See post below about why I voted yes.
Eddie V
by DolphinNation on Nov 5, 2010 3:16 PM EDT up reply actions
big picture
I think considering the depth of our starting pitching and our lack of depth in quality OF, that the trade is bearable more because of the need for a good OF. The only concern would be how long we’d have Rasmus. A couple past big trades for offensive help (Drew, Tex) have given the other teams long-term help but only given us a guy for a year.
Of course, like many are saying… just about any other pitching prospect would be a much easier deal to make.
Heaven is a baseball field.
seeing that Rasmus
has NEVER had an OPS above .859 in the Majors and NEVER had an OPS above .933 in the Minors, what makes anyone here think that he’s worth Teheran, arguably the best pitcher in the Minors? Pitching beats hitting. Always. That’s the Braves’ way. Why would we trade our best pitching prospect since, well, forever, for a guy who, on his best day, is a Bobby Bonds clone?
Now, if Rasmus was a RH bat, I could see it as a necessity. But if we’re talking Teheran, we better get Justin Upton back.
by apoxonbothyourhouses on Nov 5, 2010 11:55 AM EDT reply actions
.859 OPS and a .366 wOBA is awesome. Heyward had a .376 wOBA, so you are getting incredible value at a very, very prime position in center field.
Twitter: @Ben_Duronio
but
we don’t have to TRADE for Heyward. we have him. ergo, your point doesn’t make one.
do you honestly think that Rasmus stays in CF for as long as Teheran is a SP? If not, then the value you give up FAR outweighs the value you get in return.
by apoxonbothyourhouses on Nov 5, 2010 2:23 PM EDT up reply actions
this ^
I really think that’s why a pitcher hardly ever wins the MVP award. They toe the slab once every fifth day, rather than a position player being out there 150+ games per year. I’d love to be able to add another star to a team that already has a superstar in the making (Heyward) and be able to watch them hit in the middle of the lineup for the next 4 to 6 years.
Eddie V
by DolphinNation on Nov 5, 2010 3:30 PM EDT up reply actions
Found another guy who only had a max OPS of .824 in his first two seasons, with other stats reasonably comparable to Rasmus. Jeff Bagwell. He was pretty good.
Bobby Cox, advising Jeff Francoeur about being thrown out of a game: "you’ll probably have to write a $500 check. Or you can do what I do, write a $10,000 one and tell them when it runs out, let me know."
Agree
Rasmus is good, but he’s not that good. He’s good in CF, but he’s not Andruw. He’s good at the plate, but 2010 saw a 60% jump in his k% and his BABIP was a very high .354. I just don’t think you trade the best pitching prospect in baseball for a guy whose best attribute is his contract. That having been said, I would certainly trade guys like JJ, Delgado, and any of our other pitching prospects.
Don't kiss an ass if it's in the process of shitting on you.
"…aren’t worthy enough to hold his (Pujols) ass cheeks apart while Playboy models wipe him with thousand dollar bills after he craps out the cure to whatever previously-incurable disease." by royhobbs 1/7/09
It's a worry, but remember...
…hitters, unlike pitchers, do have some control over their BABIP. Some keep the BABIP very high over their careers. It is way to early to tell with Rasmus, we don’t have enough data, but his prospect pedigree is good, he has the tools, and he has performed well.
ya i still don’t buy the pitchers don’t have control over their BABiP…i think the argument should eb pitchers don’t have as much control over their BABiP as hitters…but i unfortunately don;t want to spend the time to prove that.
"No. Lonely people mixing with one another? Breeding? Creating an even lonelier generation? You're not even allowing natural selection do its work. Pssh. You're like the guy who invented the seat belt."
Dwight Schrute
Pitchers do have SOME control over their BABIP
Just not enough for it to be statistically meaningful over the course of a season. A .270 BABIP in one year could be because the pitcher has a really deceptive delivery, or it could mean his defense played especially well or it could mean that hitters were simply hitting balls where fielders were or it could mean they were facing especially friendly park and weather factors on those days. You simply need more data to make a conclusion
by sexbobomb on Nov 7, 2010 11:31 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
then how come over 2300 innings Tim Hudson’s BABiP hasnt stabilized to 300. it is 286…which is statistically significant in my opinion… Tim Hudson, among others can cause players to make outs on balls in play more than other pitchers, which explains why he continually outperforms his advanced stats.
i would say 2300 is plenty of innings for it to standardize to 300. and it hasnt which leaves only one logical conclusions pitchers have control over their BABiP. or at least Tim Hudson is the exception to the rule.
"No. Lonely people mixing with one another? Breeding? Creating an even lonelier generation? You're not even allowing natural selection do its work. Pssh. You're like the guy who invented the seat belt."
Dwight Schrute
There are some pitchers that can maintain a lower BABIP.
Just not many. And those differences are not huge. Hudson’s 2010 BABIP, for example, is not likely to be sustainable—-at least he has never sustained it previously, and neither has any other pitcher, really. There is some variation, but not nearly as much as there is with hitters, who will consistently have different BABIP’s.
o there’s no way Hudson can maintain his 2010 BABiP…but you certainly shoudlnt expect him to have a 300 BABiP…it will be closer to 285-290.
"No. Lonely people mixing with one another? Breeding? Creating an even lonelier generation? You're not even allowing natural selection do its work. Pssh. You're like the guy who invented the seat belt."
Dwight Schrute
I wouldn't hate it...
but why would the Cardinals even trade away a valuable position like CF, if they truly believed Rasmus would be a future superstar? A top hitting prospect should almost always trump a top hitting prospect. I would hate to take on another team’s problem child. That, and while Rasmus would help us fill one of our 3 major issues for upcoming season, losing Teheran would take away our best possible option when it is time to replace Lowe and fill our 3 major concerns for the 2012-2013 season. It would be nice if we would just throw some money at our outfield issues and possibly shed Jurrjens/Lowe during the season to address other future concerns. But I know I’m oversimplifying the situation.
Oh Sweet Jesus...
NO. This would be Adam Wainwright all over again. Except Rasmus would stay for 2 years instead of just one.
From what I’ve been reading around, it seems that the Cardinals want a starting pitcher that is close to being in the majors plus a middle infielder, likely Prado or Infante. Why not send Jurjens and Infante over for Rasmus and a mid-level (i.e.: class a or aa) infielder in return?
"There are only two seasons—winter and baseball." — Bill Veeck
Rasmus would be here...
a minimum of four years. He’s two years into his six years of team control.
-C
It’s rough to sit through these games and not have someone that can’t hit a Ball?
I think this would be Wren’s top offer in this deal. I doubt he would part with Teheran for anything less than a top tier OFer.
by king of games on Nov 5, 2010 12:18 PM EDT up reply actions
Of course we would rather send JJ and Infante...
…but they won’t take that. Remember, it is (A) what the Cardinals want and (B) how our offer compares to everyone else’s offers, because we know everyone will want Rasmus if he is available.
No way
Talented hitters/position players win games… Talented pitchers win pennants
"I wasn’t thinking about it. That’s the worst celebration of all time. I didn’t know what to do. I got lost in the moment." - Brian McCann
by HansonManCrush on Nov 5, 2010 12:24 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
It would be nothing like that.
Drew was a one-year rental. Rasmus would be here a minimum of four years. We would, at the maximum get six out of Teheran. Given the possibility of injury, we probably only get five out of Teheran anyway.
Why only a maximum of six years?
Am I missing something?
by SmithnCompany on Nov 5, 2010 1:59 PM EDT up reply actions
Those are the team controlled years.
Rasmus wouldn’t be a maximum of four, but after four he is at market value. Same for Teheran after six years.
So we will never be able to sign free agents again???
Chip Caray: SWING AND A DRIVE, BELTED RIGHT…..and McCann makes the catch by the dugout.
by Hudson's Soul Patch on Nov 5, 2010 9:36 PM EDT up reply actions
No, but...
…the point is that after the team control years are done we could sign either Rasmus or Teheran, whichever we got, but it would be at market value or close to it. After the team controlled years, the comparison between the two is irrelevant.
No dice
Doing that trade means the team is comfortable with Minor and Beachy for the future. As much as our OF (besides J) stinks, this does not warrent selling the future. Braves were doom in 2010 due to injury more than OF production and 1st base. I agree with most that pitching > hitting.
16 Division Titles, 7 NL Pennants, 1 Wild Card, 3 World Series Titles....this is the Braves.
by romone_braves91 on Nov 5, 2010 12:30 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
No thanks
Teheran has too much potential as a pitcher, a guy I believe it the next true Ace of this organization.
I look at it this way, and I realize this is a stretch but it’s how my mind works when I have an opinion. Right now, would I rather have Felix Hernandez or Carlos Gonzalez (Before I get a bunch of comments about my choices, “car-go plays in a hitters park” blah blah blah, I chose two young, top talents at their respective positions) I would take King Felix, because I value great pitching over great position players.
Basically we need to trade with Oakland again. If my memory is correct, we are two for two in that department. (Tim Hudson and Mark Kotsay).
16 Division Titles, 7 NL Pennants, 1 Wild Card, 3 World Series Titles....this is the Braves.
by romone_braves91 on Nov 5, 2010 12:38 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
(Tim Hudson and Mark Kotsay’s wife).
FTFY
by king of games on Nov 5, 2010 12:42 PM EDT up reply actions
Those dudes...
Share a wife??
I knew the Bay area is pretty liberal, sexually-speaking, but I didn’t know they were Mormon-liberal…
-C
It’s rough to sit through these games and not have someone that can’t hit a Ball?
Hey, anything that nice is meant to be shared.
by king of games on Nov 5, 2010 3:17 PM EDT up reply actions
Is Rasmus a guy we even want in our clubhouse?
The guy (whether his comments were misrepresented or not) cannot keep his mouth shut to the media. I just don’t know if getting our asses kicked by Wainright and Teheran would be worth the chance.
I still believe a lower tier pitcher and Barbaro to the Cubbies for Marlon Byrd makes more sense. Byrd is going to give a decent BA and decent defense in LF. He can even play a little CF. I think they have him control for 2 more years (maybe one).
They are looking to rebuild and a first base and pitching prospect might do it. We are obviously not going to give Barbaro a shot and he killing in the Fall/Winter league.
What manager John Russell thought when Morton hit J-Hey with a pitch, "Would you mind not shooting at the thermonuclear weapons!"
by I Saw Buzz Beaned on Nov 5, 2010 12:32 PM EDT reply actions
Agreed
Listen, Tony La Russa is not my favorite manager. However, Rasmus disrespected La Russa publically to the press. La Russa is not some idiot who has never been around difficult players. Rasmus looks like he is going to be in the Scott Rolen category as far as his attitude, and we don’t need that in our clubhouse.
Look at Rasmus’s teammate, Albert Pujols, a class act who stood by his manager and the team while Rasmus was complaining to reporters.
by Mr. Glavine #47 on Nov 5, 2010 12:46 PM EDT up reply actions
Canizares has no value. He’s 30 and does what a bunch of other 30 year old AAA vets can do (most of them guys with more Major League experience) and most of them can just be signed as Minor League free agents. Canizares adds nothing to a trade.
I wrote a novel, it's about baseball, you should buy it:
http://www.amazon.com/Four-C-B-Wilkins/dp/1449578454/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1257720610&sr=1-1
www.dropoutproductions.com
Pujols bless you for continuing to fight unreasonable trade scenarios. Many people don’t look into their proposed trade pieces to see if they might truly have some value.
Don't kiss an ass if it's in the process of shitting on you.
"…aren’t worthy enough to hold his (Pujols) ass cheeks apart while Playboy models wipe him with thousand dollar bills after he craps out the cure to whatever previously-incurable disease." by royhobbs 1/7/09
I doubt they are in rebuilding mode
As long as they have Pujols (and Holliday and Wainwright and Carpenter), their payroll will be high enough that they basically have to try and compete
Rasmus, No........
Upton, Kemp or Ellsbury, Yes, in a heartbeat.
None of those guys are worth JT unless we also get a prospect or two included. Basically I would want a player you would take in the first round and a half of a fantasy draft.
by king of games on Nov 5, 2010 12:45 PM EDT up reply actions
“would take on the first round and a half of a fantasy draft” lol.
16 Division Titles, 7 NL Pennants, 1 Wild Card, 3 World Series Titles....this is the Braves.
by romone_braves91 on Nov 5, 2010 12:48 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
All those guys...
are also worse than Rasmus (unless he’s talking Justin rather than B.J. Upton, and then they’re probably on-par).
-C
It’s rough to sit through these games and not have someone that can’t hit a Ball?
Thing is though...
Upton, Kemp, and Ellsbury were once thought of as highly as Rasmus, and have crapped out in recent years. Same goes for a couple other recent “elite” CF prospects. I’m not sold Rasmus can maintain his quality production this year, let alone improve on it. And for a potential King Felix, Lincecum, Pedro like true #1, I’m not willing to do it. Rasmus isn’t a sure thing, not yet. Teheran isn’t either, but maybe I’m just wary of the recent flame out rate on recent top CFs like Upton, Kemp, Ellsbury, Adam Jones, Chris Young, etc.
http://sportsandgrits.blogspot.com/
Ellsbury would be the perfect fit for our team. Play CF, can leadoff and STEAL bases, and he is at odds with the Red Sox. If Sox can get Werth or Crawford, they will not need Ellsbury. The problem would be, who do we trade for him besides JT bc they don’t need SP.
16 Division Titles, 7 NL Pennants, 1 Wild Card, 3 World Series Titles....this is the Braves.
by romone_braves91 on Nov 5, 2010 12:47 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Brett Gardner!
We need to root for the yankees to sign crawford or werth. Cuz then we get Gardner. He would be by far the best choice for our CF. Good defense. Great speed. Great OBP. Basically, the man.
then we CAN* get Gardner
I didn’t mean to say that he is ours by default…
I hope you don’t mean BJ Upton….the guy who, for the past two years, has had an avg. under .241 and OBP under .322. He’s gone downhill since 2007….and Ellsbury for Teheran??? You sir, are crazy. Kemp is a FA in 2013….better be a reasonable extention to go with the trade before even thinking about it, but I like him b/c he’s RH, and great defensively
by -Primetime21- on Nov 5, 2010 12:47 PM EDT up reply actions
I'm assuming you mean Justin Upton....
…..who saw his AVG, OBP, SLG, OPS, HR, RBI, SB, and 2B total drop this past year while racking up 152 K’s?
Kemp saw his numbers drop even further and is an even bigger potential cancer than Rasmus.
Ellsbury’s probably still injured and definitely isn’t worth Teheran.
by Undocorkscrew on Nov 5, 2010 12:49 PM EDT up reply actions
homerlanding...
…I don’t quite understand that. Upton and Ellsbury are one year ahead of Rasmus in service time and Kemp is two years ahead. Upton is signed through his first two free agent years at a reasonable price, so there is that. Upton is probably as good as Rasmus, and Kemp might be, but Ellsbury certainly isn’t. Basically, none of Upton, Kemp, and Ellsbury is more valuable than Rasmus. So why would you give up Teheran for one of those three but not Rasmus.
(I assumed you meant Justin Upton because BJ Upton is way less valuable.)
I’d do Vizciano (sp) for Rasmus, but no way do you trade a potential #1 starter. Those don’t grow on trees. Good hitters do. Now if Rasmus was a great hitter and defender, then I’d think about it.
If good hitters grew on trees...
…why the hell were we sending McLouth, Melky, Conrad, et al out there last year? Did someone cut down our tree??
Unfortunately, they all go to the Yanks and Sox. I meant to say that front line starters are harder to come by that decent hitters.
Rasmus is not an elite hitter, so why give up an elite prospect?
Rasmus...
…was an elite prospect (#5 in 2008, #3 in 2009 per BA) who has done well in two years in the majors and has just as good a chance of becoming an elite hitter as Teheran does of becoming an elite pitcher. I guess because people here have not followed Rasmus, they don’t understand how good he is. His pitching comp on the Braves would be Hanson—-an elite prospect who has been very good an is developing.
And the Argument
Hopefully you’ve seen the guy pitch. I’d err on the side of Teheran’s potential in this case. PERIOD.
"Just because we fall from a different tree,
doesn't mean we're not created equally"
Because potential beats major league performance...
…every time, I guess.
i want to virtual hug you….on of the problems on TC is its greatest asset…we have such great contributors in regards to our prospects…many posters only think our prospects are important… Teheran is great, but he isnt unanimously the best pitching prospect n baseball ( I have seen him as the third best, behind Hellickson and Chapman, although i thin khe is proabbly the best if you don;t include Chapman).
Other teams have great prospects. Colby Rasmus was a great prospect in the minors…since he has been int he majors he has done very well…he struck out a lot last year, but he is gonna strike out, he is a power hitter, but he also walks a fair amount and has very good power for a CF… not to mention he is already a great defensive CF. the fact is our staff is stacked as is, our OF is barren. Teheran could be a great pitcher and we would still win this trade bc the upgrade of Rasmus over whoever he replaces is significantly greater than Teheran and whoever he replaces, the disparity in talent between the two spots is not equal and thats why Rasmus is the right player in this case.
"No. Lonely people mixing with one another? Breeding? Creating an even lonelier generation? You're not even allowing natural selection do its work. Pssh. You're like the guy who invented the seat belt."
Dwight Schrute
This trade doesn't seem sensible by any stretch of the imagination.
Rasmus has obvious attitude issues and I don’t think his potential exceeds Teheran’s. This would be a mistake in my opinion.
War Eagle
Rasmus's potential does not exceed Teheran's...
…but (A) his floor is much higher—-he has already performed well in the majors, (B) his injury risk is less, just by being a hitter instead of a pitcher, and © we need hitting more than pitching.
Yes.
Julio’s arm issues concern me, long term. I’d prefer Delagado for Rasmus, but if that’s what it takes…
What arm issues? The slight bit of tendonitis he had his very first season two years ago? Something that’s never come up again as he’s seen his innings rise? Yeah, that’s not much of a concern.
I wrote a novel, it's about baseball, you should buy it:
http://www.amazon.com/Four-C-B-Wilkins/dp/1449578454/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1257720610&sr=1-1
www.dropoutproductions.com
While you’re right about the injury concerns now, I’m worried that those could come up sooner rather than later in his near future. I know he has time to fill out (being only 19) but he definitely needs to add some substancial weight to help neutralize any injury concerns.
by SmithnCompany on Nov 5, 2010 2:42 PM EDT up reply actions
You're understating it:
I’ll quote from the article from Tuesday:
Julio has all the tools to be a legit #1 starter with the only flag being his durability after being shut down in two different seasons with arm issues. He stayed healthy in 2010 however, and the results were astounding. If everything continues on course for him you could see him start the year in AAA with a chance to be the third 20 year old to play for Atlanta in 2 years.
Frankly, that’s just incorrect. He was shut down early in 2008 and hasn’t had any troubles since.
I wrote a novel, it's about baseball, you should buy it:
http://www.amazon.com/Four-C-B-Wilkins/dp/1449578454/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1257720610&sr=1-1
www.dropoutproductions.com
What CBwik SAID!
"Just because we fall from a different tree,
doesn't mean we're not created equally"
How About
Mike Minor and Arodys Vizcaino for Rasmus and Allen Craig?
Jair Jurrjens and Brandon Beachy for Ellsbury?
Without Minor, Jurrjens or Beachy…what is our rotation?
Hudson, Hanson, Lowe……
Write your own recap!.....mvhsbball
Explain the Ellsbury love
Because I don’t get it. Is it the stolen bases, which aren’t that important? He’s not that great of a defender, he’s good, but not great hitter. He missed almost all of last season. And even with all of this, you think he’s worth JJ AND Beachy? I don’t want to be mean, I just want to understand the thinking behing this and other proposals for Ellsbury, because I just don’t see it.
Don't kiss an ass if it's in the process of shitting on you.
"…aren’t worthy enough to hold his (Pujols) ass cheeks apart while Playboy models wipe him with thousand dollar bills after he craps out the cure to whatever previously-incurable disease." by royhobbs 1/7/09
I usually agree about stolen bases not being important. But the more ive watched teams with a serious threat on 1b, getting him on base changes everything. The pitcher is terrified of him and changes the way he pitches. I just watch how it is when reyes gets on base, or someone like that. The odds of scoring a run just seem so much higher cuz of his legs. Basically just need 1 hit from any of the next 3 solid hitters. In our case, get ellsbury on, let him steal, and we need a hit from prado chipper or heyward. I like my odds.
" getting him on base changes everything"
thats the kicker, ellsbury struggles to get on base…he does walk a lot and unless he is swinging a hot bat he isnt gonna be on a ton. i like him as a player, but some poster said he would rather have him for teheran over rasmus for teheran which is patently absurd.
"No. Lonely people mixing with one another? Breeding? Creating an even lonelier generation? You're not even allowing natural selection do its work. Pssh. You're like the guy who invented the seat belt."
Dwight Schrute
I'm thinking
I’d rather have Brett Gardner over either of them. Lets make that happen
the only reason I would rather have Gardner over Rasmus is because he would cost less, in terms of eventual payday, control, and price in a trade….but Rasmus is more th type of hitter we need, we need pop.
"No. Lonely people mixing with one another? Breeding? Creating an even lonelier generation? You're not even allowing natural selection do its work. Pssh. You're like the guy who invented the seat belt."
Dwight Schrute
Could you flip Minor for Gardner or Granderson?
Given that they basically have 2 CF and lack SP depth….could Minor be packaged for either? I might consider that…
Gardner in lead off….
Prado in the 2 or 5 hole….it would add depth to the lineup…
Why would Gardner be less in terms of control?
He has essentially the same service time as Rasmus (actually slightly more). He would eventually cost less at arbitration and on the free market because he isn’t as good as Rasmus, but wanting a player because he would cost less because he isn’t as good is a bit self-defeating, no?
ya you are right service time is basically equal…i thought Gardner had more service time and thus less control.. I was wrong.
and i agree acquiring players who arent as good bc they cost less isnt a strong way to build a contender… which is why i would rather have Rasmus…we are on the same page there.
"No. Lonely people mixing with one another? Breeding? Creating an even lonelier generation? You're not even allowing natural selection do its work. Pssh. You're like the guy who invented the seat belt."
Dwight Schrute
I don’t think we need a stud OFer, I think we need 2 that are better than McLouth, Diaz, Cabrera and Ankiel. I could live with DeJesus and Frenchy in CF and LF respectfully before I gave up Julio. Everything I’ve ever heard about JT screams “Braves”. Good attitude, nice guy, great pitcher.
Write your own recap!.....mvhsbball
STOP
FYF is never coming back. He’s awful. Period. FW got rid of his ass for a reason – he can’t hit, he can’t field and he’s a whiny little bitch (sorry ladies).
Don't kiss an ass if it's in the process of shitting on you.
"…aren’t worthy enough to hold his (Pujols) ass cheeks apart while Playboy models wipe him with thousand dollar bills after he craps out the cure to whatever previously-incurable disease." by royhobbs 1/7/09
I don’t want him back, but I do see him as an affordable RH OFer that is better than McLouth or Ankiel. And NEVER appologize for calling him a whiny little bitch.
Write your own recap!.....mvhsbball
If we are going to bring somebody back...
…why Frenchy instead of Andruw? Andruw can hit and field better and will likely be cheaper.
Andruw would be fine with me. I don’t see the Braves spending $8M+ on a LF or CF. Maybe, just maybe they would pay for Magglio Ordonez if his 2011 salary was $10M less than his 2010 salary. I’m trying to name realistic possibilities. DeJesus, Frenchy, someone like Chris Young, Tony Gwynn Jr, or Langerhans. Andruw fits that mold just fine. I’d love to see Rasmus, or Kemp, or Crawford, or Werth, or Braun. But the chances of any of those guys being 2011 Braves is just ridiculous.
The Braves lost 3 one run games to the eventual WS champs while playing horrible defense, with Chipper, Prado, Jurrjens and Medlen injured. Just how drastic an improvement do we actually need? I’m just saying that we need 2 guys that are better than McLouth, Diaz, Cabrera and Ankiel.
Write your own recap!.....mvhsbball
If that is what we are going to do...
…that’s what we’ll do. I would like to get someone better, but it would be rough (let’s face it, despite the balking here, the Cards are unlikely to trade us Rasmus for Teheran anyway). The only thing I would add here is that Chris Young is a big step above the other guys you listed and would cost more in salary and players traded.
I still think the Cards really want to unload Rasmus, they’re just not saying so anymore to protect his trade value.
by king of games on Nov 5, 2010 3:22 PM EDT up reply actions
Everything the front office has said in the last two months,
is opposite of your hypothesis. As I said below, there is no way the team can compete if they trade their third best position player for a prospect. There is no way for the Cards to replace Colby’s production the way the team is set up.
Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
Second base….I’ve played second base, how hard can it be? -TLR
Also, Dave Concepcion.
Why would a FO go on the record as saying they want to unload a player? There’s a locker room problem there and they may want to unload him Yunel style. Not saying it’s a fact, but certainly a possibility.
by king of games on Nov 5, 2010 4:32 PM EDT up reply actions
I love Gwynn as the 4th OF
With him, you can afford to carry a subpar defender in the OF, cuz you can take him out in the 7th/8th if you have a lead.
Don't kiss an ass if it's in the process of shitting on you.
"…aren’t worthy enough to hold his (Pujols) ass cheeks apart while Playboy models wipe him with thousand dollar bills after he craps out the cure to whatever previously-incurable disease." by royhobbs 1/7/09
If you don't want it to happen, stop saying it
If you repeat something like that enough, it will come true. Didn’t your mom teach you that?
Don't kiss an ass if it's in the process of shitting on you.
"…aren’t worthy enough to hold his (Pujols) ass cheeks apart while Playboy models wipe him with thousand dollar bills after he craps out the cure to whatever previously-incurable disease." by royhobbs 1/7/09
Buzz, here’s the deal. I think Frenchy will be ignored this off season. Anybody that does contact him will low ball him. His ego will be shattered and his head might actually explode. After picking up the pieces of his shattered life, he might call his old buddy Frank, or better yet, he might ask Chipper and Brian to contact Frank. Tell them to ask him to give the hometown boy one more chance. Tell Frank he’s right handed, he’ll play anywhere Frank wants him. You know …beg for a job. Frank will think about the ticket sales, everybodies favorite hometown team…McCann, Heyward, Hudson, Frenchy.
Write your own recap!.....mvhsbball
NONONONONO!!!!!!!!!!
Now I’m going to have nightmares about .600 OPS’s and creepy beards. Thanks.
Don't kiss an ass if it's in the process of shitting on you.
"…aren’t worthy enough to hold his (Pujols) ass cheeks apart while Playboy models wipe him with thousand dollar bills after he craps out the cure to whatever previously-incurable disease." by royhobbs 1/7/09
Welcome to my world. I’ve been having that nightmare for 2 weeks.
Write your own recap!.....mvhsbball
Sadist
Don't kiss an ass if it's in the process of shitting on you.
"…aren’t worthy enough to hold his (Pujols) ass cheeks apart while Playboy models wipe him with thousand dollar bills after he craps out the cure to whatever previously-incurable disease." by royhobbs 1/7/09
No
I wouldn’t trade JT for anyone less than a Ryan Braun type and I don’t see Rasmus in that mold. Also if the Cards actually thought about a Quentin for Rasmus swap then it would not take a JT to acquire Rasmus
If the Cards actually thought about a Rasmus for Quentin swap...
…it would be tricky dealing with them because they are completely illogical. I keep seeing people post about this supposed Rasmus/Quentin talk on TC, but haven’t seen it anywhere else. Is this just rank speculation?
Okay.
But the article says that the White Sox liked the idea and the Cards shot it down. Doesn’t sound like the Cards were considering it at all. “Gotta do better than that” does exactly make me think they thought about it more than laughing at it.
One Cardinals FO type
Could have been a janitor. Who know who made that statement but the fact is it’s not something that was just made up.
Please tell me where in the article...
…that there is any fact that a Cardinals’ executive seriously considered it? It sounds like the White Sox front office acted like their message board posters and acted like it would work and talked about it.
2010
braun:
age – 26
WAR – 4
OPS – .866
ramus
age: 23/24
WAR – 4.3
OPS – .859
Stand inside an empty tuxedo with grapes in my mouth, waiting for Ada
twatter
And 2010...
…Was Rasmus’s best year and Braun’s worst. Braun also has a great team friendly contract.
Quentin for Colby makes me laugh
The guy has got to be the worst defensive CFer in the history of the game. Ok maybe not that bad but still he is terrible, and less of a hitter too. Geez Quentin is no better then McLouth in terms of ability
I'd do it
Even with the knowledge that a hot P means more than a hot hitter in a short series. I could see Rasmus here long term (he’s from ‘Bama) with Heyward and Freeman while producing more than adequately both @ the plate and in the field. It would be very hard to pull the trigger, but I’d do it.
I wouldn’t cave in to any demands for more though. If they didn’t think Teheran represented their ideal return, then they are more than welcome to shop Teheran to a 3rd team. I’m sure someone would give up what they’re looking for to get TeAAheran.
I can't imagine
that the Cards will be too eager to trade Ramsus. I know he and Larussa have had their differences, but he provides a lot of power from the left side of the plate, something they don’t have otherwise. Also, I imagine they will spend some serious $$$$ t to resign Pujols, and if they do, they will have little money left to sign another OF. I’m not sure who all they have in the mix for next year, but from what I’ve heard, they don’t have any significant successor for him either. I’d love to see him playing for the Braves, but am uneasy about the number of prospects we’d have to give up. It looks too much like the Drew/Wainwright scenario.
The first part of this.
The Cards won’t be eager to trade Rasmus—-remember after the stuff leaked out, all the sudden LaRussa played him every day. If there really was a dispute, the Cards sided with Rasmus.
I still don’t like the Drew/Wainwright comparison—_Drew was a rental, Rasmus is not.
its a rough comparison tho
Yes Drew was a 1 year rental, but he was an elite player. Rasmus is neither
It is funny why people don't think Rasmus is elite.
He was an elite prospect, who has done well in his first two years and is still very young with room for growth. There is no good reason to think he will have less of a career than Drew.
Dude, look at his numbers
CR may very well end up being the best CF in MLB in the next 1-2 years, but he isn’t there yet. Hitters are more of a sure thing than Pitchers, but as I’ve said in other posts, elite hitters don’t increase their K% by 60% and have their good seasons fueled by an unsustainable babip. Perhaps if he was the second coming of Andruw defensively, but I don’t think that’s the case, either (the defensive metrics didn’t like him in 2010, but if anyone has a scouting perspective they want to share, it would add some clarity to this discussion). So let’s face the fact that he certainly carries a lot of risk when you’re talking about trading half of your top 10 prospects.
Don't kiss an ass if it's in the process of shitting on you.
"…aren’t worthy enough to hold his (Pujols) ass cheeks apart while Playboy models wipe him with thousand dollar bills after he craps out the cure to whatever previously-incurable disease." by royhobbs 1/7/09
Yes he has done well
but imho he is not “elite”
He is about average defensively and is a hacker. He does have good power. However, while his power numbers may be great, I feel his K rate and defensive abilities will only deminish more from this point.
It might not make sense, but I’d trade 2 of the Braves other top pitching prospects for Rasmus, but not Teheran for Rasmus. The kid is special.
I wrote a novel, it's about baseball, you should buy it:
http://www.amazon.com/Four-C-B-Wilkins/dp/1449578454/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1257720610&sr=1-1
www.dropoutproductions.com
Very few of us have probably actually been able to see Teheran pitch enough to really know his true value, we just gather what we can from what others write about him.
I can’t really “agree” with this statement because of my limited personal knowledge of how Teheran looks/projects, but it says a ton about just how high Teheran’s ceiling might be from the viewpoint of someone who probably knows more about our minor league system than the rest of the TC members combined.
Baseball is like church. Many attend but few understand.
THIS, THIS and more THIS
When you watch this kid pitch you know your watching greatness but at the same time I can see the argument in favor of the deal. Rasmus is already in the ML and has been successful while Teheran could still flame out due to injury or just plain ineffectiveness but having said all that I’d still take Teheran! Dude is sick!!!!!!
When you watch this kid pitch you know your watching greatness
This, this and THIS. And yes, I’m totally biased, and yes, I’ve seen him pitch multiple times at three levels over the past two years. He’s amazing and NO WAY would I trade him. Ever.
You sound like me
Watching him pitch live and in person is a thing of beauty! TV doesn’t do him justice lol!
I keep saying this...Over and Over
Seeing him in person is beauty. The ball explodes out of his hand, but the kid is a pitcher. Still developing and toyed with people 2-6 years older. Yeah, he’s special!
"Just because we fall from a different tree,
doesn't mean we're not created equally"
But really, how much value does "watching" a guy...
…by someone who is not a professional scout mean? I would certainly rely more upon what a scout says about a player than what I see the player do in the minors.
Well
All you have to do is go check out the minor league sites(BA, John Sickels, Keith Law. Etc.) and they’re saying the same exact things everyone else that has saw him is saying. I can tell you haven’t watch him in person cause if you have you’d know what everyone is talking about!
I could be wrong
But I think you’re completely missing cavebird’s point.
Baseball is like church. Many attend but few understand.
My thoughts precisely...
keep Teheran, and package 2 or 3 of our other top prospects like Vizcaino, Perez, Delgado, Hoover, even include a Medlen or Jurrjens.
http://sportsandgrits.blogspot.com/
That won't be enough.
Of course, neither would Teheran. They are looking to win now. If we actually want to get Rasmus, I am afraid the package would have to start with Prado.
Are you an undercover Cards fan?!
Cause nothing seems to be enough for Rasmus! The kid is good but not that damn good!
Not at all.
But let’s face it, if he had been a Braves prospect with a very high prospect ranking (Top 5 twice) and had performed pretty well his first two seasons, nobody here would even consider trading him for a top pitching prospect.
NOOOOO !!!
WTF ? What are you thinking ? NOOOOOO !! Anybody but Teheran !!!
We've done this before!
look at wainwright! HELL NO!
I pray to Jason Heyward every night
by JasonHeywardisGod on Nov 5, 2010 1:47 PM EDT reply actions
Teheran for Yunel Escobar
Do it Frank!!
"I wasn’t thinking about it. That’s the worst celebration of all time. I didn’t know what to do. I got lost in the moment." - Brian McCann
by HansonManCrush on Nov 5, 2010 1:54 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
Of course not.
Maybe is he were right handed, but otherwise this is a waste of time.
The artist formerly known as someguy917.
If we are willing to give up that much
we should try to throw a few good pitching prospects at the Pirates for McCutchen…I’m sure they would consider with a package including JJ..
by WeStillHaveBobby on Nov 5, 2010 2:03 PM EDT reply actions
No, they wouldn't.
McCutcheon is who they are building around. They won’t move him unless we give them way too much.
Unless it is Justin Upton or Ryan Braun
There is no other young, controllable outfielder I would trade Teheran for. And because the Cardinals are not in a position where they have to trade Rasmus, I don’t think the Braves could get him without including Julio.
Everyone always brings up Justin Upton. Guys, I watch him play 10-15 times live every year and probably 100 times a year on TV. He’s really not that great. He hacks at everything and he’s only had one season (2009) where his OPS was over .850. He’s a solid, young, athletic RF and will have a nice career, but he’s not all that great.
'Terrible preview...pretty weak, didn't learn anything new. pretty sad." - mastermike
by Scott Coleman on Nov 5, 2010 2:15 PM EDT up reply actions
he's 23
he’s got PLENTY of time to translate those tools into stats.
he will be a top-10 player in baseball before his 30th birthday.
by apoxonbothyourhouses on Nov 5, 2010 2:25 PM EDT up reply actions
And Rasmus is only 24
Given Upton has more service time, I don’t see why we would want Upton more than Rasmus. Braun, yes, Upton, no.
So most of the mods have weighed in, and I guess I'll give you my opinion...
'Terrible preview...pretty weak, didn't learn anything new. pretty sad." - mastermike
and now my detailed explanation...
For one, there’s the whole contract situation. Unless it’s part of a trade-and-extend deal, we would be getting Rasmus thru 2013/2014 and the Cardinals would have Teheran through at least 2016, if not 2017 or even 2018. The Cardinals would also get three years of Teheran for basically no money at all, while the Braves will be paying each of Rasmus’ arbitration years.
I’m not so sure Rasmus is going to be all that great. In two full seasons, his OPS is .786. Sure, he had a fine 2010 season, but his BABIP was .354. That will come back down and so will his other numbers. He also struck out in nearly 26% of his at-bats. I know he improved his power, but most hitters could start hitting for more power if they started to wildly hack at every pitch.
Finally, his defense. It’s still early, but he’s been pretty bad in CF so far. In an ideal world we could move him over to LF, but I doubt that happens.
Now with all that said, I’d still be very interested in Rasmus. He has tremendous power and could be one of the better offensive center fielders in baseball for the next 10 years. But for Julio Teheran? No. Not many players like Julio Teheran come along. As a 18-year old in A, A+ and AA-ball, he posted a K/9 ratio of 10.1. He flat out dominated the league, and he won’t even turn 19 until January.
I’d certainly give up and two of our top prospects besides Teheran (well, Freeman too, but I don’t think the Cards would be interested.) and probably more than that too. We just can’t trade Teheran.
'Terrible preview...pretty weak, didn't learn anything new. pretty sad." - mastermike
by Scott Coleman on Nov 5, 2010 2:41 PM EDT up reply actions
He turns 20 in January...
But I agree with everything else you say.
-C
It’s rough to sit through these games and not have someone that can’t hit a Ball?
Whoops
Thanks.
'Terrible preview...pretty weak, didn't learn anything new. pretty sad." - mastermike
by Scott Coleman on Nov 5, 2010 2:47 PM EDT up reply actions
Why wouldn't they want Freeman??
Do they have someone at 1st base who’s better that I can’t think of???
by -Primetime21- on Nov 5, 2010 3:08 PM EDT up reply actions
WAT U DID THAR
I C IT.
-C
It’s rough to sit through these games and not have someone that can’t hit a Ball?
I think you underestimate Rasmus.
He was as an elite prospect as Teheran is now. He is still very young and improving. Per the statistics, he had one very good defensive season and one not very good season. The jury is still out on his defense.
I also think you overestimate Teheran. He is a great prospect, no doubt, but is he more valuable right now than, say, Hanson? No, of course not. Other than one season of team control (which is a big advantage), Hanson is very similar to Rasmus—-great prospect doing well and improving.
Overestimate?
Now way are we overestimating Teheran. If Rasmus was an “elite” prospect, and Teheran is “elite” now, how are we overrating him? Have you seen Teheran pitch. I’ve seen him 8 times and even if his stuff wasn’t on in a night, he has the ability to win. No to Rasmus if it involves Teheran. I don’t see Frank even entertaining it….unless….
"Just because we fall from a different tree,
doesn't mean we're not created equally"
Overestimate?!
Have you watched the kid pitch live?! If so you know that nobody is “overestimating” Teheran. Ok, did you say the same thing about Heyward last season when he was the Top Prospect in all of baseball? I guess most here overestimated him as well.
Wow, that's great!
Ya’ll have seen Teheran pitch against major leaguers? AAA hitters? It was my understanding that he hadn’t done that yet. I have seen Rasmus hit against major league pitching and it was pretty damn good. I guess your watching also involved x-ray vision and you could look inside his arm to know that he isn’t going to get hurt any time soon.
I am hoping to see Teheran in Mississippi next year, but nothing he does against AA hitters is going to make him can’t miss, etc.
Um
most of your better hitters are in AA just so you know.
That's funny.
I was pretty sure they were in the majors. But what do I know?
Yeah
But I’m quite sure you were just speaking of the mL above and in the mL AA hitters are superior to AAA hitters!
So...
when a player earns a promotion to AAA, does he have to start hitting worse??
I’m not sure I follow the logic of your premise at all.
-C
It’s rough to sit through these games and not have someone that can’t hit a Ball?
How many times
Have you seen your elite/well above average skip AAA all together?! There’s a reason for that and if an elite prospect does go to AAA it’s usually not for long.
Just because some elite prospects skip AAA doesn’t mean you can make the generalization that AA has better hitters.
Most elite baseball players go strait from high school to the draft. Does that make high school hitters better than college hitters?
Baseball is like church. Many attend but few understand.
No YOU can’t be serious. You have no argument…..AAA might not have as many elite hitters, but is clearly a higher level of baseball/hitting overall.
Baseball is like church. Many attend but few understand.
Just bescause it's a higher level
Doesn’t make the players at that level better! More experienced yeah but your better more elite players no sir!
AAA might not have as many elite hitters, but is clearly a higher level of baseball/hitting overall.
reading comprehension much?
Baseball is like church. Many attend but few understand.
Tha has nothing to do with my original argument
That the hitters/pitchers in AA are better than AAA
You really "that"ed yourself?
My point was that Rasmus has done it against major league pitchers, Teheran hasn’t done it against anyone higher than AA. So, yes, MLB players were part of what I was talking about. Hell, my first sentence was “Wow, ya’ll have seen Teheran pitch against major leaguers?”
Yeah, I categorically disagree. The overall hitting and pitching in AAA is much better than in AA. You could make the argument that some guys just don’t need AAA because they’re good enough to make it in the Majors without it, but on the whole most players still work their way up through AAA. The average AAA hitter and pitcher is unquestionably superior to the average AA hitter and pitcher.
I wrote a novel, it's about baseball, you should buy it:
http://www.amazon.com/Four-C-B-Wilkins/dp/1449578454/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1257720610&sr=1-1
www.dropoutproductions.com
Thank you
I don’t claim to be any sort of minor league expert but when people say unfounded shit like “AA hitters are superior to AAA hitters” it’s tough for me to look the other way.
Baseball is like church. Many attend but few understand.
i think his claim may be distorted a bit…an argument can be made that AA hitters haev more skill/toools/talent than AAA hitters…however under no stretch of the imagination does that mean that AA hitters are better than AAA hitters…
I’m not sure if i conveyed this appropriately, but hopefully it will help clarify something, probably not though
"No. Lonely people mixing with one another? Breeding? Creating an even lonelier generation? You're not even allowing natural selection do its work. Pssh. You're like the guy who invented the seat belt."
Dwight Schrute
Right right
And I understood that part of his argument and tried to clarify with him that we were arguing the overall hitting levels and not which level had more “elite” players. I don’t think he was getting what my main point was.
Baseball is like church. Many attend but few understand.
Yes we are over-rating JT
But imho i think many are over-rating Rasmus too. He is a good player with nice power. But he is so-so on defense and is a hacker
He strikes out quite a bit...
…but he is not a hacker—-his BB rate is pretty good.
As for defense, still hard to say. The scouting reports in the minors were high on his defense and per the metrics (which they say take 3 years to be meaningful) he has had one good year and one bad year in the majors.
He is not so-so on defense, he's clearly a plus defender
And is not a hacker. His walk rate was among the highest in baseball last year.
by vivaelpujols on Nov 9, 2010 12:11 AM EST up reply actions
NO!
I would rather we just give Cody Ross a decent contract and let him roam left or center field for a few years. Spend a little money and get a guy who is better than anyone else we’ve had in a while in center or left. That way we can hang on to our stud pitching prospect.
How do we give Cody Ross a decent contract...
when he’s still under team control until 2012??
-C
It’s rough to sit through these games and not have someone that can’t hit a Ball?
My bad
For some reason I thought he was a free agent this offseason. I guess since it was such a sure thing that he would get traded in 2010.
No worries...
I did to, until I checked it out a couple weeks back.
All these one year contracts and arbitration rules, it gets confusing.
-C
It’s rough to sit through these games and not have someone that can’t hit a Ball?
Spelling fail
too*
-C
It’s rough to sit through these games and not have someone that can’t hit a Ball?
It was because he was given up on a waiver claim...
…and it was assumed he would be non-tendered by the Giants. After his performance for them, however, it is now assumed he will be offered a contract.
Dingdangolecolby is ours.......
If the Cards trade him they would be cutting their own throats. After trading Ludwick, this team can ill afford to trade away any offense, let alone a 4 WAR player that hasn’t hit his ceiling yet.
Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
Second base….I’ve played second base, how hard can it be? -TLR
Also, Dave Concepcion.
well obviously you are crazy and some weirdo Cardinals fan…because as you can see if you arn’t a Braves pitching prospect you are worthless and not any good. 4 WAR phffha…Teheran will accumulate 25 WAR for the Atlanta Braves before he even gets called up.
and i would be curious if you would want Teheran for Rasmus…woudl that excite you? im guessing no…would Jurjjens and something else interest you…we have this guy Joe Mather would you have any interest in him
(if you can’t tell a lot of this post is sarcastic)
"No. Lonely people mixing with one another? Breeding? Creating an even lonelier generation? You're not even allowing natural selection do its work. Pssh. You're like the guy who invented the seat belt."
Dwight Schrute
You guys only got half of the Boog and Bombs show......
And I honestly know nothing about Tehran, but that last guy we got from the Bravos seems to be working out ok, but the Cards would literraly Pujuols, Holliday, and the six dwarves if they trade Clobby for a prospect.
Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
Second base….I’ve played second base, how hard can it be? -TLR
Also, Dave Concepcion.
i think you are forgettign Aaron Miles?
"No. Lonely people mixing with one another? Breeding? Creating an even lonelier generation? You're not even allowing natural selection do its work. Pssh. You're like the guy who invented the seat belt."
Dwight Schrute
I HATE YOU.
Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
Second base….I’ve played second base, how hard can it be? -TLR
Also, Dave Concepcion.
And Brendan Ryan.
And who knows, maybe you can resign Felipe Lopez. ;)
I'll take Ryan all day long.....
when you have a ground ball staff like the birds do, you need a guy like Ryan ranging at SS. He was hands down the best defensive SS in the majors this year, but he’ll have nothing to show for it. Also, if he can put up offensive numbers close to ’09 (he was coming off wrist surgery this year) He could very easily fall into the 3 WAR range because of his stellar defense.
Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
Second base….I’ve played second base, how hard can it be? -TLR
Also, Dave Concepcion.
would u be inclined to make a Prado for Rasmus trade?….
I wouldnt necessarily advocate it, bc we solve our CF problem by making a hole at 2B, and kills our depth…but wonder if that was more to your liking.
"No. Lonely people mixing with one another? Breeding? Creating an even lonelier generation? You're not even allowing natural selection do its work. Pssh. You're like the guy who invented the seat belt."
Dwight Schrute
His names come up over at VEB,
but I don’t think the Cards can do that straight up…Prado’s a FA after 11 correct? Giving up 4 years of (somewhat) cost control of Colby doesn’t seem prudent, but I agree that the Cards need a second baseman with some pop. They have nothing in the system that fits that profile.
Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
Second base….I’ve played second base, how hard can it be? -TLR
Also, Dave Concepcion.
I think Prado has 3 years of control left, but I could be wrong, i think this is his first year of arbitration.
"No. Lonely people mixing with one another? Breeding? Creating an even lonelier generation? You're not even allowing natural selection do its work. Pssh. You're like the guy who invented the seat belt."
Dwight Schrute
I'd consider it then,
but over all, I just don’t want to see Colby traded. There is no CF in the minors ready to step up, and the plan when he was drafted was to step into the JEd role for at least 6 years, which is coming along fine.
Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
Second base….I’ve played second base, how hard can it be? -TLR
Also, Dave Concepcion.
If i beg will that help at all?
"No. Lonely people mixing with one another? Breeding? Creating an even lonelier generation? You're not even allowing natural selection do its work. Pssh. You're like the guy who invented the seat belt."
Dwight Schrute
MO likes pizza...that's all I will tell you.
Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
Second base….I’ve played second base, how hard can it be? -TLR
Also, Dave Concepcion.
I’m sorry that was a low blow…i apologize. remember we gave you Adam Wainwright…so you’re welcome
"No. Lonely people mixing with one another? Breeding? Creating an even lonelier generation? You're not even allowing natural selection do its work. Pssh. You're like the guy who invented the seat belt."
Dwight Schrute
well you got 100 or so games of Drew and Eli, if I remeber correct....
sounds fair to me……..
Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
Second base….I’ve played second base, how hard can it be? -TLR
Also, Dave Concepcion.
i think it was a perfectly fair deal…i loved the deal then and still do….but you got more value out of the trade…but we got the immediate results we wanted..
"No. Lonely people mixing with one another? Breeding? Creating an even lonelier generation? You're not even allowing natural selection do its work. Pssh. You're like the guy who invented the seat belt."
Dwight Schrute
ya.....
It was quite fair for both teams. IIRC Waino wasn’t moving through the Braves system as well as the FO wanted. He just needed to hang out with Carp for a while.
Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
Second base….I’ve played second base, how hard can it be? -TLR
Also, Dave Concepcion.
We actually got a full season out of Drew...
…it was just about the only year of his career he wasn’t hurt—-and he was great. We can’t really complain about that one, we got all we wanted out of that trade and then some.
NO WAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
There is no way I would make this trade. I live in MO and watch Rasmus play daily. He has good speed for a CF’er, but his arm and instincts are CRAP!!! There is no way you give up a ace in waiting for someone who can’t throw a guy out at 3rd from shallow center. NO WAY, NO HOW!!
I would only think about giving up Teheren for someone like CarGo. He is under control for 4 more seasons and is on his way to be a superstar.
GarGo
Has had one good season and has absolutely ridiculous splits
Baseball is like church. Many attend but few understand.
I love me some CarGo, but until he hits outside of Coors, he’ll start being known as a Coors Field Product.
'Terrible preview...pretty weak, didn't learn anything new. pretty sad." - mastermike
by Scott Coleman on Nov 5, 2010 2:52 PM EDT up reply actions
To be fair, he improved on his away numbers quite a bit...
….in the second half of the 2010 season. But I agree, he’s going to have to start hitting consistently outside of Coors until I start falling over him. A very exciting player, but I just can’t see him coming close to his 2010 season on a consistent basis.
by Undocorkscrew on Nov 5, 2010 2:55 PM EDT up reply actions
He still hits pretty well on the road...
Just not CarGo-well.
The problem on the road is that he cannot walk to save his life.
Coors Field plays a factor in his success AND failure. If he were to play elsewhere, his home stats would drop some, but his away stats would likely improve as well.
All this said, if someone gave me his road splits and told me that’s how he’d play throughout the course of a season (home and away), I’d still figure him to be above-average at worst. Better than normal average, average OBP, and a pretty good SLG on the road.
If you place his road OPS against the rest of the MLB’s outfielders’ total stats, he’s in league with Marlon Byrd and Drew Stubbs…not too shabby for the bad side of his split.
-C
It’s rough to sit through these games and not have someone that can’t hit a Ball?
why would his road stats imporve when he moves out of coor’s….that makes little sense, unless there is some effect i am unaware of.
the big thin you mention is he can’t walk..which is why i don’t like him going forward…he had his career year, he will not, in my opinion, ever come close to thos enumbers again.
"No. Lonely people mixing with one another? Breeding? Creating an even lonelier generation? You're not even allowing natural selection do its work. Pssh. You're like the guy who invented the seat belt."
Dwight Schrute
isn't Coors now considered a pitcher's park?
Humidor effect…
Eddie V
by DolphinNation on Nov 5, 2010 3:52 PM EDT up reply actions
Coors Hangover effect
It’s well-known that breaking pitches don’t break as much at high altitude.
So try taking BP at Coors everyday and then getting curves and sliders thrown at you constantly during away games, with their full break.
It affects their approach at the plate much more than anyone gives them credit for. It’s not as easy as taking some pre-game BP and making simple adjustments. The ball literally breaks several inches more at other parks than it does at Coors, so it’s like their eyes are fooling them on every breaking pitch.
-C
It’s rough to sit through these games and not have someone that can’t hit a Ball?
Some interesting reading on this...
http://baybridgebaseball.com/2009/01/the-great-matt-holliday-experiment/
Obviously from a couple years back, but still relevant, I think.
This is what catches my eye, his ability to hit better on the road the longer he’s been on the road…
Matt Holliday’s career road numbers…
First 2 games of a trip: .277 BA/.472 SLG
3rd game on: .281/.446
4th game on: .281/.458
5th game on: .291/.483
6th game on: .305/.522
7th game on: .321/.567
8th game on: .356/.683
By no means is it a proven effect, but there’s at least enough evidence to suggest that the theory has a possibility of being true.
I may try to replicate this experiment with CarGo’s season, if I ever get enough time, i.e. fired from my job. I haven’t even looked at the individual games to see if this might be true, so we’ll see.
-C
It’s rough to sit through these games and not have someone that can’t hit a Ball?
there is the evidence i was unaware of and didn’t think about… thank you
see fellow posters thats how you answer a douche bag poster.
"No. Lonely people mixing with one another? Breeding? Creating an even lonelier generation? You're not even allowing natural selection do its work. Pssh. You're like the guy who invented the seat belt."
Dwight Schrute
jsuti to clarify i am the douche bag not you C
"No. Lonely people mixing with one another? Breeding? Creating an even lonelier generation? You're not even allowing natural selection do its work. Pssh. You're like the guy who invented the seat belt."
Dwight Schrute
I don't think you're a douchebag at all.
Can’t remember a post I’ve read and though, “That Swo is a douchebag.”
My posts, on the other hand…well, let’s just say that I’m at least somewhat aware of my ability to douchebag it up, when riled.
-C
It’s rough to sit through these games and not have someone that can’t hit a Ball?
clearly you have yet to read all of my posts..
:)
or alternatively i will need to step up my douch-baggery
"No. Lonely people mixing with one another? Breeding? Creating an even lonelier generation? You're not even allowing natural selection do its work. Pssh. You're like the guy who invented the seat belt."
Dwight Schrute
You agree with me too much not to be...
…a douche bag poster. Guilt by association, swo, sorry. (And after you wanted to give me a virtual hug—-see what a douche bag poster I am??)
If it helps...
I’ve often thought to myself, “Good Gravy! is this guy a doucher!” whenever I read posts by both of you.
Don't kiss an ass if it's in the process of shitting on you.
"…aren’t worthy enough to hold his (Pujols) ass cheeks apart while Playboy models wipe him with thousand dollar bills after he craps out the cure to whatever previously-incurable disease." by royhobbs 1/7/09
That's nuts Guapo12.
I’d trade Cargo for Rasmus in a heartbeat. They are at the same stage in service time (both have two years) and other than inflated Coors statistics and your random thoughts from watching Rasmus (and I have watched him a bunch too, he was on my fantasy team last year, and he looked good to me), there is no reason to want Cargo over Rasmus.
I like CarGo
I don’t know if I’d trade him for Rasmus, it’d be close. Lord knows it’s extremely unlikely he’ll ever outperform his numbers this season but still…
If knowledge is the key, then just show me the lock.
Got the scrawny legs but I move just like Lou Brock.
I don't think I'd have a problem trading JT on principle.
But for Rasmus? Maybe I’m undervaluing (if that’s a word) him, but I want better for JT.
"If I have asthma, they won't let me scuba. And if I can’t scuba, then what’s this all been about?? What am I working toward??"
"You look like you should be married to one of the San Diego Padres."
I would not trade Colby Rasmus for Julio Teheran either
seeing as Teheran is 19 and could likely flame out before he reaches the majors. Everyone just takes for granted that he will be a stud. This is wishful thinking. It’s more like there’s a less than fifty percent chance that he will be a stud. Colby Rasmus is far more likely to produce at an elite level than Julio Teheran.
Also: Jacoby Ellsbury? You realize he’s injured and three years older right?
If knowledge is the key, then just show me the lock.
Got the scrawny legs but I move just like Lou Brock.
in case you didn't know
Colby Rasmus has been in the exact same spot as Julio Teheran before, prospect value-wise. He’s more valuable now than he was back then. Maybe a neutral forum should be asked the question.
If knowledge is the key, then just show me the lock.
Got the scrawny legs but I move just like Lou Brock.
"far more likely to produce at an elite level"
This is the rub. Do we take what Rasmus has done at the major league level and credit him for it (solid D, above-average offense) or debit him for it (trouble v LHP, rising K rates).
Teheran’s been blowing through the minors without incident. He hasn’t had his warts (if any) exposed the way Rasmus has. That said, I think there is a tendency in these sorts of prospect-for-prospect scenarios to stick with the one you already have. Call it the endowment effect or just simply smart CYA by a GM (if your prospect flames out and the other guy soars, it’s more defensible than if you make a trade and the opposite happens).
If Albert played in the AFL, they’d have to rename it the AZ/NM Fall League, based on where his homers landed.
That's the thing.
We’ve been drooling over Teheran and they have been drooling over Rasmus. It isn’t just the fans—-the front offices tend to like their own guys more than other teams’ guys too. These kind of deals just don’t happen, and won’t in this case either.
Well
They do happen. Taylor for Wallace comes to mind because someone mentioned Brett earlier in the thread. Also, Garza for Delmon.
But yeah, prospect-for-prospect deals are obviously very rare.
If Albert played in the AFL, they’d have to rename it the AZ/NM Fall League, based on where his homers landed.
There have been two of those trades recently...
…and both involved Brett Wallace—-for Taylor and for Gose. Very strange.
OT: You guys ever wonder if FW wanders on TC every once in a while and reads what all of us GM’s think? Just for shits and giggles??
Really?? That's pretty sweet actually
But I guess I probably would too in my downtime, I mean without the fans there is no game. Also it would be cool to get a fans perspective on different topics, especially ones like this.
by -Primetime21- on Nov 5, 2010 4:37 PM EDT up reply actions
It is cool
The actually have quoted a couple thing stated on the board.
That's awesome
Do you have a link by any chance?
Baseball is like church. Many attend but few understand.
Chipper made the statement last season
I’ll try to find it. Joe and Chip referenced this site during their broadcast several times this season.
It’s be sweeter if they ran with the Rainbow Llamasaurus
by -Primetime21- on Nov 6, 2010 7:12 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah, lots of the Minor League guys check it out. So maybe when some folks are shitting all over guys they’ve never met or even seen play they should take a second to realized that the player, or his friends or family, might read it.
I wrote a novel, it's about baseball, you should buy it:
http://www.amazon.com/Four-C-B-Wilkins/dp/1449578454/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1257720610&sr=1-1
www.dropoutproductions.com
Good point
But it is a blog, and a place for the fans to voice their opinions….so that’s kind of like getting front row seats to a comedy show and then getting pissed if the comedian picks you out of the crowd and makes fun of you.
by -Primetime21- on Nov 5, 2010 10:52 PM EDT up reply actions
I get the analogy, but I think if the comedian says things that are funny and based in truth, most folks won’t mind. The same way I think that if people say things about the players that are fair and based in truth, they won’t mind. It’s the stuff where folks go “X player sucks” or “X player has no future” or whatever, just because, objectively speaking, he’s not as good as somebody else, that’s what guys, rightfully so, get offended by.
I wrote a novel, it's about baseball, you should buy it:
http://www.amazon.com/Four-C-B-Wilkins/dp/1449578454/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1257720610&sr=1-1
www.dropoutproductions.com
Couldn’t agree with you more. Sometimes I think people see athletes as replaceable objects rather than actual people.
by -Primetime21- on Nov 6, 2010 8:25 AM EDT up reply actions
Not surprised I am in the minority.
77/22 against at the time of this posting.
I think it’d be interesting to see what would happen if we posted the same question over on the Cards’ site. I suspect we’d probably see something closer to 90/10 against. Any cards fans out there reading this?
by !Vive la Francoeur! on Nov 5, 2010 3:14 PM EDT reply actions
we were invited!
by a fine gentleman by the handle mvhsbball
If knowledge is the key, then just show me the lock.
Got the scrawny legs but I move just like Lou Brock.
I do what I can.
:)
'Terrible preview...pretty weak, didn't learn anything new. pretty sad." - mastermike
by Scott Coleman on Nov 5, 2010 3:17 PM EDT up reply actions
Easy
He has this thing called Bieber Fever…..he’s really just looking for somebody to love
by -Primetime21- on Nov 5, 2010 3:18 PM EDT up reply actions
This
I used to respect his opinion and defend him when people jumped on him. But now I hate him and his Bieber-loving guts.
Don't kiss an ass if it's in the process of shitting on you.
"…aren’t worthy enough to hold his (Pujols) ass cheeks apart while Playboy models wipe him with thousand dollar bills after he craps out the cure to whatever previously-incurable disease." by royhobbs 1/7/09
Unurprising splits
Endowment effect at work.
If Albert played in the AFL, they’d have to rename it the AZ/NM Fall League, based on where his homers landed.
I voted yes, and here's why:
I truly believe that you can only project a prospect so much. Sure, Teheran projects as a possible future ace, but you also have to consider the alternatives – injuries being the primary concern for any prospect’s development. He also sees the field once every 5th day. Given the depth of pitching in the system currently, if I can trade someone and get the maximum return, I’m doing it. I also feel this way about JJ – and I thought it would have been wise for ATL to trade him after last offseason for an outfielder. His max value was after last season, and I think we could have gotten a lot in return for him.
On the other side of the coin, you have a proven position player in Rasmus, who, as mentioned above, would be under team control for the next 4-6 seasons, who has everything a club would want in an outfielder – young, good defensively, under team control for a bunch of years, and some good splits at the plate.
I love Teheran and I hope he’s everything we want him to be when he makes the big club, but that’s my reasoning in voting yes. I’ll be on the lookout for the tomato’s heading in my direction now. DUCK!!
Eddie V
This will never get old.
'Terrible preview...pretty weak, didn't learn anything new. pretty sad." - mastermike
by Scott Coleman on Nov 5, 2010 3:18 PM EDT up reply actions
Do you shed a tear everytime you see it???
Or just yell at your computer in disgust??
by -Primetime21- on Nov 5, 2010 3:19 PM EDT up reply actions
I think that whoever threw that water bottle probably has a better arm than Nate McLouth.
'Terrible preview...pretty weak, didn't learn anything new. pretty sad." - mastermike
by Scott Coleman on Nov 5, 2010 3:22 PM EDT up reply actions
but can he hit??
We don’t need any more punch and judy hitters out there.
Eddie V
by DolphinNation on Nov 5, 2010 3:23 PM EDT up reply actions
Let’s be honest here…you and I could probably out-hit McLouth.
'Terrible preview...pretty weak, didn't learn anything new. pretty sad." - mastermike
by Scott Coleman on Nov 5, 2010 3:27 PM EDT up reply actions
Alright, you talked me into it
I’ll show up for ST in Orlando.
Eddie V
by DolphinNation on Nov 5, 2010 3:51 PM EDT up reply actions
I'm getting ready...
'Terrible preview...pretty weak, didn't learn anything new. pretty sad." - mastermike
by Scott Coleman on Nov 5, 2010 3:57 PM EDT up reply actions
THAT never gets old
I love me some Crime Dog and Emanski.
Eddie V
by DolphinNation on Nov 5, 2010 3:58 PM EDT up reply actions
For you I'd write a symphony...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BmpjDrnZ154
'Terrible preview...pretty weak, didn't learn anything new. pretty sad." - mastermike
by Scott Coleman on Nov 5, 2010 3:20 PM EDT up reply actions
You're a sick, demented individual, good sir, but...that's why we're friends
Now if you’ll excuse me, I’m going to try and burn this out of my memory with a blowtorch, or some really hot chicken wings.
Eddie V
by DolphinNation on Nov 5, 2010 3:22 PM EDT up reply actions
'Terrible preview...pretty weak, didn't learn anything new. pretty sad." - mastermike
by Scott Coleman on Nov 5, 2010 3:26 PM EDT up reply actions
I f***ing hate you!!!!
Jesus, pink shoes and cut-off capri pants?
Don't kiss an ass if it's in the process of shitting on you.
"…aren’t worthy enough to hold his (Pujols) ass cheeks apart while Playboy models wipe him with thousand dollar bills after he craps out the cure to whatever previously-incurable disease." by royhobbs 1/7/09
On second thought...
I just realized that Pink, Bieber, and Adam Lambert are actually one person.
Don't kiss an ass if it's in the process of shitting on you.
"…aren’t worthy enough to hold his (Pujols) ass cheeks apart while Playboy models wipe him with thousand dollar bills after he craps out the cure to whatever previously-incurable disease." by royhobbs 1/7/09
Disagree
First, Rasmus is not under team control for 4-6 years. I’m pretty sure it’s 4, and it’s at least one and perhaps two years less than Teheran. For me, that matters quite a bit, especially when you consider that Rasmus is arb-eligible in 2012, meaning his team will really only get one very cheap year of control before he hits arbitration.
Second, Rasmus has not yet demonstrated that he has everything a club would want in a CF. There are questions about his defense, his rising K rates, and his ability to hit left-handed pitching. Now, with enough data, he may alleviate all those concerns. I think he probably will (Grady Sizemore-lite looks like a probable outcome). But to say that he has already arrived there does not seem correct to me.
If Albert played in the AFL, they’d have to rename it the AZ/NM Fall League, based on where his homers landed.
I think he'll be a little better than Grady Sizemore light.
Grady’s best OPS+ in his career has been 133. Rasmus’s was 132 last year. Rasmus had the highest OPS of any CF in baseball last year.
Yes, Rasmus has two less years of team control. That is a factor in Teheran’s favor. On the other hand, Teheran could easily lose a year and a half of his first six due to injury, too. And Teheran has not yet hit AAA or the majors yet to have any potential flaws exposed.
When I say Sizemore lite, I’m thinking more of CF D than anything else. But I also think that, before injuries derailed him, Sizemore was better than Rasmus. Is he still? Hard to say.
Sizemore at 24 (2006): 386 wOBA, 10% BB, 24% K (tougher league)
Rasmus at 24 (2010): 366 wOBA, 12% BB, 32% K
I also think it’s important to note that Rasmus’s offensive stats may be a little misleading, as they protected him a bit against LHP.
If Albert played in the AFL, they’d have to rename it the AZ/NM Fall League, based on where his homers landed.
That's possible.
On the other hand, the AL Central has been the weakest AL division for a while, and even if there is a slight difference in those seasons in Sizemore’s favor, Sizemore’s future after that is obviously the very low side of what Rasmus could due because of his injuries. If you are saying his is the “lite” of what Sizemore could have become, well, damn, that doesn’t bother me at all—-that’s pretty spectacular.
Is it bad that I still get chills every time I watch that?
'Terrible preview...pretty weak, didn't learn anything new. pretty sad." - mastermike
by Scott Coleman on Nov 5, 2010 4:40 PM EDT up reply actions
Heck NO cause I still do!
It makes me miss baseball and watching him hit already lol!
Say what you will about Chip, he will always be fine with me just because of the enthusiasm of that call. God, what an amazing moment.
by !Vive la Francoeur! on Nov 5, 2010 10:44 PM EDT up reply actions
Why are most people so high on Rasmus?
He’s good, but not great, and he is no more of a sure thing than Teheran. His fielding is suspect, because he put up a good first year and a bad second year in CF according to UZR, so you don’t know what you’re gonna get defensively. His K rate shot up dramatically last year, striking out in 1/3 of the time, and his BABIP was high.
He’s been 2.3 win and 3.5 win player so far….which is good, and since he’s young it could go up, but who knows? Why not just go with an almost surefire 3 win player in David DeJesus who consistently puts up good defensive numbers and about a .350 wOBA while giving up significantly less?
The third-base umpire ran into the outfield and retrieved the biggest chunk. "It's a f***in' potato."
by alligatorimpersonator on Nov 5, 2010 4:08 PM EDT reply actions
DeJesus is a rental.
That’s one huge reason he costs less. Also, Rasmus is already as good as DeJesus, is under team control for four more years, and is very young. He is more of a sure thing that Teheran because he has already been good in the majors. He is two years farther along in service time, however, which plays in Teheran’s favor.
As for DeJesus, let’s say he would cost us Delgado (seems reasonable). Do we want to give up Delgado for a one year rental?
I haven't looked at the numbers...
but by reputation….Rasmus is…or could be..a very good CF.
Dejesus is a good LF…fringe CF.
A good LF, and a fringe CF such as Matt Young would probably be a decent help.
The series with the Giants- I think it’s proven that we’re close. Getting better is nice, sustaining excellence is what need to happen though.
I’d resign Ankiel if you do this on the cheap though to be a defensive replacement in LF/CF.
his UZR is probably not indicative of his skills as a defender…from what i remember of him when he was a top 10 prospect…his defense is elite…I don’t think it is quite Franklin Gutierrez good or vintage Andruw (but seeing as Andruw is the best CF of all time, we probably shouldnt be comparing people to him)…but he is definitely one of the better defensive CF in baseball…
Remember UZR isnt the end all in defensive metrics all it really tells us is how good he is at making plays on balls that are deemed to be in his zone. There are other ways of quantifying defense which may tell us differntly then UZR, for example he was about league average in DRS. when there isnt enough data, and two seasons really isnt enough, I am gonna fall back on the scouting reports, personally.
That said you are right he has trouble with Ks and his BABiP is probably unsustainable, but his BABiP was low in 09, so you have to adjust those numbers upwards, presumably. He is at least a 3 WAR player right now, with room for growth as he continues to develop…we don;t have a single player in our system, or on our major league roster that can do what Rasmus can promise (besides that Jason guy)
If you think Teheran is too much for Rasmus, I understand…Teheran has a lot of potential and his value is enormous right now, but make that argument, don’t try to sell Rasmus short…he is a very good player and if he improves he could be a top 10 OF in baseball, because he can do everything.
"No. Lonely people mixing with one another? Breeding? Creating an even lonelier generation? You're not even allowing natural selection do its work. Pssh. You're like the guy who invented the seat belt."
Dwight Schrute
Oh, swo
“his UZR is probably not indicative of his skills as a defender”
/cringe
If Albert played in the AFL, they’d have to rename it the AZ/NM Fall League, based on where his homers landed.
quick correct me, i hate being wrong…don’t just tell me I’m wrong… I can look at it and realize it is misstated.
"No. Lonely people mixing with one another? Breeding? Creating an even lonelier generation? You're not even allowing natural selection do its work. Pssh. You're like the guy who invented the seat belt."
Dwight Schrute
We don't have a large enough sample size on Rasmus for UZR to be reliable.
In 2009, Rasmus’s UZR was great. In 2010, it wasn’t good at all. I think Rasmus has the tools; whether he puts it together is unknown right now.
rasmus is probably a top 3 center fielder in baseball when you account for both offense and defense. That’s why people are so high on him.
MASN Announcer: "Ususally they have what they call here 'the privilege,' and that's what bobby cox calls it when he let's the veteran guys swing away on 3-0. This is not such a hitter."
Jason Heyward: Single up the middle, ballgame.
I was really on the fence about this one. I ultimately chose no, but I was shocked that there was that big of a disparity between yes and no. I think a top-flight center fielder is harder to come by than an ace, especially in the braves minor league system, where there’s nothing to speak of outfield-wise. That said, in terms of value, I think teheran will be worth more to the team and I don’t think rasmus will ever be the true middle of the order impact bat that teheran is worth.
MASN Announcer: "Ususally they have what they call here 'the privilege,' and that's what bobby cox calls it when he let's the veteran guys swing away on 3-0. This is not such a hitter."
Jason Heyward: Single up the middle, ballgame.
i think this pretty much somes it up in the most sensible means possible…Teheran is most likely gonna be worth more over the life his career with the Braves, than Rasmus would be…but that doesnt mean its a bad deal. We can replace Teheran with another pitcher (although there will be dropoff)…there is no one we can plug in to CF to get anything close to Rasmus.
It jsut a matter of whether you are willing to bet that Teheran will be productive and reach his potential (which by all accounts he is well on teh way), and then are you willing to trade future value for present value.
"No. Lonely people mixing with one another? Breeding? Creating an even lonelier generation? You're not even allowing natural selection do its work. Pssh. You're like the guy who invented the seat belt."
Dwight Schrute
This goes back to the question
Who would you rather have Maddux or Bonds(pre-steroids)? I think the Braves made the right choice and it paid off for us too.
the problem is… we have no clue how things would have turned out with Bonds….its entirely possible we don’t win any division titles and we are home to the most hated player of the 2000s (or maybe that is Roger Clemens…i dont know its close between the two)…it is equally possible…We win 3 WS titles as Bonds powers us through the playoffs every year with prodigious HR after prodigious HR…he becomes likeable under Bobby COx and never is tempted to do steroids, because he wins a WS with the Braves. and thus officially becomes the greatest hitter of all time (which he could have done even without taking steroids). We have no clue what might have happened…so to say we made the right choice, is a bit presumptuous. We made a good choice, because Maddux was amazing, but maybe he was amazing, becuase of his time with the Braves, maybe Glavine and Smoltz taught him some stuff along the way, maybe MAzzaro helped him exponentially.
I have spent too much time writing this, but in my defense, I dont wanna do work.
"No. Lonely people mixing with one another? Breeding? Creating an even lonelier generation? You're not even allowing natural selection do its work. Pssh. You're like the guy who invented the seat belt."
Dwight Schrute
Kansas City just let go of Jai Miller
Wouldn’t mind picking up another right handed versatile OFer with decent pop.
http://www.minorleaguebaseball.com/milb/stats/stats.jsp?pos=LF&sid=milb&t=p_pbp&pid=455687
WE ARE TALKING ABOUT A PROSPECT...not a MLB pitcher
I don’t like trading prospects aways lightly…but I think we (and by we…you could really say most of baseball) has gotten to the point that we are putting more value on prospects then they probably deserve. Teheran appears to be a stud pitcher in the making…but the key word in that phrase was “appears.” He is not a MLB ready pitcher yet…and a lot can happen between now and establishing a solid MLB career. I would not want to trade him for a rent a player..but Rasmus is young and would be under team control for a few years.
If they Braves were short in pitching prospects…then perhaps not. But you HAVE TO DEAL FROM YOUR STRENGTH! Minor league pitching talent is our strength! If you do not use some of these guys as trade pieces while their value is high…then we will end up wasting some of theses guys.
We have to be willing to part with Value to get value..and because of the lack of pitching we can get a greater value for someone like Teheran to get a productive bat….especially in CF. Getting production in CF is much more valuable then getting equal production in LF…1B..or even RF. It is a position where offense is a premium.
I am not advocating for Rasmus…as much as I am advocating for the mind set of making something happen…while you treasure your prospects…we need to remember that prospects are not ML players yet and still have a high fail rate. If you have someone young…who has proven success in the bigs…that has distinct value that a prospect can’t match.
Someone made the comparison of Maddux vs Bonds. That is not a fair comparison. We don’t know how good of a MLB pitcher Teheran is going to be. Maddux was already a Cy Young winner.
Someone also made the point that San Francisco is a good example of how you can bring in bats-yes you can bring in bats…but San Francisco got hot. You put that team out there for another 162 and you can’t count on the same results. They got extremely lucky with the waiver wire…if you are a team in contention you can’t count on being able to pick up Burrell and Ross off the waiver wire….that isn’t going to happen as someone below you be able to grab them first.
With your theory of WE'RE TALKING ABOUT A PROSPECT
Last off-season would you have traded Heyward for Matt Garza?
No...
1) Position playrers are easier and safer to predict then pitchers so Heyward would have seemed like a much better bet to suceed to a minor league pitcher.
2) We are aren’t completely devoid of pitching in our system and have hopes of growing internal pitching talent. We are really short with the bats in the system right now…
3) Garza is a good…relatively .. young pitcher but at 26…his upside was within site. He would have not have been a centerpice worth trading for.
But that wasn’t a realistic comparison…..
I understand that your a Cardinals fan but
That makes no sense and no it’s not the same as the proposed TC deal.
we're talking about
a player in the low minors with immense ceiling (actually, teheran had a cup of coffee in AA) for a young player with proven major league success but still with an immense ceiling. they’re pretty comparable trade scenarios
there’s a possibility teheran (or miller) provide no value to any MLB club. there’s very little chance rasmus (or hanson) provide no value to an MLB club in the future. there’s a very significant chance rasmus (and hanson) turn into 5+ WAR stars, like, next year
if given the chance, and assuming that the opposing front office doesn’t hang up on them, it would be immensely wise to trade any prospect 2+ years away from the show for a player like rasmus or hanson or mccutchen or etc. the fact of the matter is that one top flight prospect does not land that kind of player
Stand inside an empty tuxedo with grapes in my mouth, waiting for Ada
twatter
Now a better question...
Would you trade Hanson…for Rasmus or Carlos Hernandez?
Before you say “Never”…think about it….these two could be middle of the order hitters playing CF for the next 4+ years….on a team desperate for offense and deep in pitching.
Besides…to hear people talk about it…Teheran will be sliding into that spot by August anyway…
People will call me crazy, but I would give Hanson...
…straight up for Rasmus. The only thing that makes me pause is Hanson’s extra year of team control because he came up late in 2009. That makes him more valuable than Rasmus, but given the positional needs and injury risks, I would do it.
just a question.. who would you trade for Rasmus…and try to make sure its something that the Cards would at least entertain. Obviously we would both trade EOF and Infante…but the Cards arn’t gonna go for that.
Or i guess would you trade anything for Rasmus, and in the alternative, again, who would you rather trade for (seeing as there really isnt a real possibility of us signing Werth)
"No. Lonely people mixing with one another? Breeding? Creating an even lonelier generation? You're not even allowing natural selection do its work. Pssh. You're like the guy who invented the seat belt."
Dwight Schrute
I must have missed the major falling-out Tommy and Bobby had last year
The only reason why we’re talking about this is beacuse tlr and Rasmus apparently don’t get along. This trade is not comparable. Hanson is better than Rasmus and Teheran is better than Miller (though I would obviously take him in a heartbeat).
Don't kiss an ass if it's in the process of shitting on you.
"…aren’t worthy enough to hold his (Pujols) ass cheeks apart while Playboy models wipe him with thousand dollar bills after he craps out the cure to whatever previously-incurable disease." by royhobbs 1/7/09
Hanson is amazing comparable to Rasmus.
Both elite prospects who have played very well in the majors. The only big advantage Hanson has on Rasmus is an extra year of team control (which is big). I would make the trade despite that due to positional need. The Cards would probably refuse the offer despite that for the same reason.
Rasmus is good, no doubt
But the problem is, he’s had one good season offensively, and one poor one. From 09 to 10 his batted ball profile was basically the same, and yet his babip went from .311 to .354. Part of this is his HR/FB went from 9.4 to 14.8. And his K% went from 20% to 32%. His BB% increased substantially, but the others worry me. His K% should be going down, not up. What if his babip and hr/fb decrease? If you buy into defensive metrics, he was much worse in 10 than 09. He’s an outstanding talent, but I just see some potential problems that make me wary of trading JT. Again, as I’ve said before, I would certainly trade other good prospects, such as Delgado, Beachy, Hoover, Vizcaino, Minor, or Carlos Perez – I think there’s enough depth to not deal the can’t miss (barring injury) Ace. Those don’t come around too often.
Don't kiss an ass if it's in the process of shitting on you.
"…aren’t worthy enough to hold his (Pujols) ass cheeks apart while Playboy models wipe him with thousand dollar bills after he craps out the cure to whatever previously-incurable disease." by royhobbs 1/7/09
Rasmus has been worth 5.8 WAR in his career via FanGraphs
Hanson has been worth 6.9 WAR in his career via FanGraphs. Both have had almost the exact same amount of playing time. Rasmus has a career .314 BABIP – which is right in range for a speedy guy who hits the ball hard, and a 1.9 UZR/150. So he’s not really getting lucky at all. Hanson, on the other hand, has an FIP (what FanGraphs uses for WAR) .70 points lower than his xFIP, implying that he is getting lucky thus far.
The two are perfectly comparable in terms of their prospect ranking, age, and MLB performance.
The difference is...
…Hanson has an extra year of team control because he came up later in 2009. Otherwise, I completely agree.
I just listed the things that worry me when contemplating trading a potential Ace. Regarding the Hanson comp, being worth a full win more in the same playing time kind of says that Hanson is better, right? As for “getting lucky”, the reason we’re talking about Rasmus being traded for JT is his outstanding 2010, which was fueled by a .354 babip. As I stated earlier, his batted balls didn’t change much, other than the fact that his FB% increased (GB% decreased) and his HR/FB also increased. You can delude yourself into thinking that his speed makes him different, but going forward, an extreme flyball hitter (11th in MLB in FB%) such as Rasmus is not going to consistently post a .350 babip. If he continues to strike out in 30% of his PA’s, he’s not going to be nearly as valuable. Therefore, given the reasons I’ve stated, and the fact that Hanson has one extra year of team control, I think that Hanson is more valuable than Rasmus.
Don't kiss an ass if it's in the process of shitting on you.
"…aren’t worthy enough to hold his (Pujols) ass cheeks apart while Playboy models wipe him with thousand dollar bills after he craps out the cure to whatever previously-incurable disease." by royhobbs 1/7/09
....
Regarding the Hanson comp, being worth a full win more in the same playing time kind of says that Hanson is better, right?
Nope, wrong, it means that his WAR is better. The fact that his FIP is way lower than his xFIP implies that he has not played as well as his WAR (which uses FIP).
As for "getting lucky", the reason we’re talking about Rasmus being traded for JT is his outstanding 2010, which was fueled by a .354 babip.
And this ignores his first season when he had a .282 BABIP. Think he was unlucky there? His career BABIP is .314, which is plenty sustainable.
I agree that Hanson is more valuable than Rasmus because of the extra year, but that’s almost completely diminished by the additional injury risk of pitchers. Regardless, Hanson is almost a perfect comp for Rasmus. Would you trade Hanson straight up for Shelby Miller?
by vivaelpujols on Nov 9, 2010 12:15 AM EST up reply actions
there are a couple of problems with your methodology here. First, there are pitchers who outperform their xFIP, in relation to their FIP. so we don’t know he isn’t playing as well as his WAR. Its possible he is, it also possible he is better than his WAR indicates (although there isn’t any evidence to suggest this is the case, it is possible, because all these stats have flaws).
Also, while Rasmus is a very good comp for Hanson when all the factors are considered, Shelby Miller is not a good comp for Teheran. Miller is a very good prospect and has a very bright future, but he isn’t in Teheran’s class just yet (although i would readily admit he has that type of potential). Teheran is closer to the majors, having pitched in AA already.
Teheran has pitched at the same at the same age and pitched dramatically better. He has also pitched at a higher level at the same age and outperformed Miller’s production in the lesser league.
And it’s not like Teheran doesnt have the stuff, his stuff is probably better than Miller’s right now. Basically the two aren’t that close in terms of prospect status.
SO a comparison of Teheran for Rasmus and Hanson for Miller isn’t exaclty comparable.
Also, remember there is the position scarcity, Braves fans wouldnt make a Hanson for Miller trade because it doesnt help us that much, we have pitching and we don’t need to purge our rotation to fill our system with arms. we do need to use our assets in the pitching department for more offense.
Now just for clarification, I don’t think the Cards should or would trade Rasmus for Teheran, because they Cards arent rebuilding and don’t need to trade offense, seeing as they arent a very deep team offensively. And the fact that Rasmus is really good helps too, which is why I want him on the Braves.
"No. Lonely people mixing with one another? Breeding? Creating an even lonelier generation? You're not even allowing natural selection do its work. Pssh. You're like the guy who invented the seat belt."
Dwight Schrute
Nope, wrong, it means that his WAR is better. The fact that his FIP is way lower than his xFIP implies that he has not played as well as his WAR (which uses FIP).
WAR is the number you used. I simply pointed out that Hanson’s WAR was greater, which would indicate that he’s better. Perhaps you should use different numbers that will illustrate why Rasmus is equal to Hanson in value. I’m very open to changing my mind when a good argument is presented.
And this ignores his first season when he had a .282 BABIP. Think he was unlucky there? His career BABIP is .314, which is plenty sustainable.
The fact is, 2009 was not a good year for Rasmus offensively. He was significantly below average with a league average-ish babip and a decent K% of 20. If the babip drops to .311 again and he continues to strike out over 30% of the time, he is going to be a below-average hitter. That is my fear, and why I wouldn’t trade JT or Hanson for him. However, I’ve stated mulitple times that I would trade other valuable prospects for him because I think he’s very talented.
Would you trade Hanson straight up for Shelby Miller?
Not at this point. Only because Hanson is still cheap, has not given any indication that there are clubhouse issues, is producing at MLB, and the Braves are not rebuilding. Though it is probably good value, the Braves already have a lot of pitching prospects. Ask me again in two years. ;-)
Don't kiss an ass if it's in the process of shitting on you.
"…aren’t worthy enough to hold his (Pujols) ass cheeks apart while Playboy models wipe him with thousand dollar bills after he craps out the cure to whatever previously-incurable disease." by royhobbs 1/7/09
teheran and who else for rasmus?
Stand inside an empty tuxedo with grapes in my mouth, waiting for Ada
twatter
Winnar
That’s right, realistically the Cards would ask for an additional piece (if not pieces) for a player like Rasmus. No Major League team will ever trade a player like him (young, under team control for more than a year, good mlb performance to date, plenty of upside for more) for a single elite prospect. It just doesn’t happen.
Here's my take
1. We have a full rotation for 2010 and 2011 already.
2. We have a plethora of solid pitching prospects in the minors (ie, position of strength)
3. We are stuck with Nate McLouth at one outfield position and a black hole at the other.
4. Pitching prospects are far more likely to fail (to injury or otherwise) than they are to succeed.
5. It’s pretty clear Rasmus is at least a “Good” outfielder.
If you are Frank Wren and this is the predicament you are faced with then you do everything you can to land this kid for CF. No one outside of Heyward and McCann should be “off-limits”.
The other thing I want to touch on … a few others opined that Rasmus is a club-house cancer. Horseshit! Nobody knows what caused him to speak out. It is just as likely that LaRussa was being a dick and singled out Rasmus intentionally as it is that Rasmus is a prima-donna. Either way this evidence, if you can call it that, is circumstantial and shouldn’t be considered in this exercise, period.
No. I’d rather follow the Giants’ plan:
1. Dominant pitching
2. Crappy hitting
3. ???
4. PROFIT!!!
The birth of Jason Heyward was God’s punishment for the sins of the people in New York and Philly.
i think int he giants case, the ????= Cody Ross and Edgar Renteria
and i dont suggest using that formula again
"No. Lonely people mixing with one another? Breeding? Creating an even lonelier generation? You're not even allowing natural selection do its work. Pssh. You're like the guy who invented the seat belt."
Dwight Schrute
don't forget
Juan Uribe and Aubrey Huff
4 players that aren’t starters on the Braves with maybe exception of Ross
the upside of teheran is too tempting to trade away, id probably trade delgado or vizcaino for rasmus. But then again since when was rasmus considered elite. he plays a prime position isnt too great of a hitter
as was mentioned…he was a top 10 prospect no less than 2-3 years ago…and he was the best CF offensively in baseball this year. but other than those two things he isnt very elite i guess
"No. Lonely people mixing with one another? Breeding? Creating an even lonelier generation? You're not even allowing natural selection do its work. Pssh. You're like the guy who invented the seat belt."
Dwight Schrute
by Swo12bv on Nov 6, 2010 1:10 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Micah Cotton.
Rasmus was considered an elite prospect as a minor league (two years in BA’s top 5, 2008 and 2009). He has done well since coming to the majors. He is still considered elite. Since when has Rasmus not been considered elite other than in the minds of other team homers who want to trade for him for crap?
by cavebird on Nov 7, 2010 2:29 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Would not do
This is just my opinion, but I wouldn’t do it. This is not based on statistics. It is based on the fact that a potential #1 starter is not someone to trade away. I know that a lot of pitchers don’t pan out, but this guy really seems legit, and he’s not that far away.
Rasmus is good, but in my opinion, he’s not elite enough to make the trade. I know, I know, he’s only played two seasons. But…last year, he struck out roughly 1 out of 3 at-bats. That’s really bad, like Ryan Howard bad. I’m sure he will improve, but I still wouldn’t make the trade.
JJ and a 5-15 prospect
I think the major league experience and a two piece deal would be more tempting than JT by himself anyway.
I was thinking same thing
and if a deal is to go down this is what would happen. JJ + Delgado or Vizcaino or Bethancourt
They wouldn't take that.
They really don’t need the pitching. They probably wouldn’t go for Teheran either.
the Braves need an OFer
Rasmus has not reached his peak yet, and Teheran has just a few starts in AA…..you make that deal
raygu
www.faketeams.com
www.sbnation.com
No.
"Tony Gwynn made sacrifices. Cal Ripken made sacrifices. I'm not sure Derek Jeter made sacrifices given the ungodly deep pockets the Yankees have." - Chipper Jones
by MBL1 on Nov 6, 2010 5:58 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
And be a siiiiiiiimmmmmmmpppppppllllllleeeeeeee kind of man!
by -Primetime21- on Nov 6, 2010 7:15 PM EDT up reply actions
NO DANG WAY!!!!!!!!!!
Would you right now rather have JD Drew or Adam Wainwright? If I remember correctly, JD Drew was also as hyped as Rasmus but never turned into much. Just for that trade alone I would hesitate to do this trade.
Second, Rasmus is a head case and he’s proven it as he doesn’t get along with pujols or Tony La Russa.
Finally, I remember we also have a couple of other prospects like Delgado and vizcaino that we can trade too. How about something like Delgado + Jurrjens + Lowe for Rasmus + Carpenter + ROOGY.
Personally if we were to trade a top pitching prospect like Delgado or Vizcaino I’d want Franklin Gutierrez from Seattle who isn’t a head case.
your trade proposition is ridiculous and deserves no attn. But there is something else you are wrong about. JD has amounted to a lot. if you remember he was amazing for us when we traded for him. his obp was 436 and he had a SLG of 569. he was also the best defensive RF int eh game, according to UZR. Also there is a significant difference between JD Drew and Rasmus. JD Drew was a complete rental, we pretty much figured he would be here for one year and move on, there was a thought we might be able to convince him to not opt out of this contract, but it wasnt realistic (especially after he crushed everything pitchers threw at him). Rasmus on the other hand would be here for a minimum of 4 years (the amount of time we have team control over him).
So this trade has absolutely no bearing on the JD Drew trade…also you shouldnt use revisionist history to review a trade, in this way. That trade theoretically didnt turn out well for us because Wainwright turned out well, but that shouldnt discourage us from trading a prospect. Prospects in general still fail at a 50% rate (if not even higher). So using one or two examples of a prospect we traded making it big to justify not completely a trade which is garaunteed to improve our team, is shortsighted.
"No. Lonely people mixing with one another? Breeding? Creating an even lonelier generation? You're not even allowing natural selection do its work. Pssh. You're like the guy who invented the seat belt."
Dwight Schrute
Garaunteed?
There is no guarantee of anything! There must be a reason why the Cards WANT to trade this guy that we dont know about.
Also, didnt alot of people make this same arguement with McCloth? He was supposed to be our longterm CF. And I know the circumstances are not similar at all, but still you never know how good a player works out for us.
We don't know that the Cards want to trade him.
I don’t think they do. I don’t think they will. There really doesn’t have to be a reason the Cards want to trade him—-they may well not want to trade him at all.
And our GM has said he's not getting traded
Other than that…
by vivaelpujols on Nov 9, 2010 12:15 AM EST up reply actions
Swo has pretty much already correctly blasted this, but I feel compelled...
…to pile on. As for Rasmus, we have little idea—-the reports came from the media, and while there is probably something there, we don’t know what. Pujols responded only to a media report of what Rasmus had said, not something Rasmus said to him.
As Swo said, the trade you proposed is a joke, the Cards might not answer the phone if Wren called for the next five years if we suggested that.
Finally, Rasmus is way better than Franklin Gutierrez. If you would rather have Gutierrez, you would rather win less games.
WOW
Rasmus is a good player but is not and will never be an elite player. I think you are WAY over-rating him. He is not a “star” player. If we wanted him, we trade several good players in a package deal. We shouldnt deal our possible future ace for an above-average player.
WOW
I am curious why you think that Rasmus will never be a star. He was an elite prospect and has performed well at a young age in the majors. What part of that says he will never be an elite player or a star? Or is it just your magical crystal ball? If he were a Brave and came up through our system, nobody here would want the Braves to consider trading him.
He may be a good if not great player but
“elite” he is not
Of course that is just my opinion
he had the highest OPS of any CF last year….but other than that.
"No. Lonely people mixing with one another? Breeding? Creating an even lonelier generation? You're not even allowing natural selection do its work. Pssh. You're like the guy who invented the seat belt."
Dwight Schrute
Do it again...
BJ Upton, Matt Kemp, among other CFs, have had huge OPS years that weren’t sustained going forward. He’s a good player, and very talented. But imo, for him to be elite, it takes more than a strong second season. It’ll take consistently playing at that level or higher the next few years. Maybe I was spoiled by guys like Griffey and Andruw in their primes, but I have a hard time putting any OF in the majors on their level, and thus, not “elite”. Carl Crawford has played at a high enough level, for long enough, that he probably fits “elite” to me. As does Josh Hamilton when healthy, but his health problems keep him from being on that level to me, kind of like Griffey post-Seattle the First, and Ichiro would be another if it didn’t seem like he’d on the back end of his outstanding career.
I’m probably forgetting a couple guys, but I just don’t think of any CF as “elite” right now. Some of the young guys may become elite, like Rasmus, McCutcheon, even Kemp, but I wouldn’t describe them as such just yet.
http://sportsandgrits.blogspot.com/
well than we have a definitional problem…there was to be someone in the majors who is an elite CF. because elite implies that they are the top of the class. when you have a segment there must be a top, assuming everyone isnt equal. Or at least that how i look at it. There isnt a CF that is better than Rasmus, in my eyes right now. He has performed offensively and has a good defensive reputation. Now you can argue Hamilton or CarGo are better, and they are, but i don’t count them as CF, because they really are Corner OFs.
If you want to talk about elite in terms of generatioanlly, then you are absolutely correct Rasmus is not elite. But i guess we should determine what time period we are looking at when determinign who is elite.
I don’t disagree that Rasmus needs to continue to maintain this production, no matter how he goes about it, presumably he won’t be able to maintain a a350 BABiP, but he can improve elsewhere.
"No. Lonely people mixing with one another? Breeding? Creating an even lonelier generation? You're not even allowing natural selection do its work. Pssh. You're like the guy who invented the seat belt."
Dwight Schrute
Even in the present time, does 1 great year make "elite"?...
If so, McLouth would qualify as an “elite” CF from his great year with the Pirates. His .853 in 2008 isn’t far off from Rasmus’ .859 this past year.
I guess it is a definitional problem, because I won’t term “elite” from a single year. I’d prefer a consistent 3+ year stretch of top 3-5 performance at their position (or in the case of a Rasmus with only less than 3 years, immediate high level performance like Pujols and hopefully a healthy Heyward). But does the fact that CF play overall having dropped allow Rasmus to still qualify as elite? His ops was under 860. It’s good, very good, and something most everyone would take.
But elite, to me, is routinely in that .900-950+ range regardless of yearly fluctuations of the league’s top 5. Griffey would be “generational”, and he was career .950, with several spikes above 1.000. Josh Hamilton has been routinely above .900 except his injury plauged 2009. Carlos Beltran, when healthy, has also been in the .900+ range. Jim Edmonds was routinely .900+. Bernie Williams had 7 straight seasons above 900. Andruw, strictly offensively, was routinely above .800 with just one season below and some spiking above .900. Ray Lankford was in the .850 range (with spikes above .900 in some) in 9 of 10 years. Grady Sizemore had 3 straight .850+ ops seasons before his health issues came, but it took the repeated high level production for him to reach that elite status.
BJ Upton had a higher spike, in a single year. Preston Wilson also had a big first year, with only one other year above .850. Aaron Rowand has had a higher ops in two single years (04 and 07) than Rasmus just posted, and he’s never been “elite” to me. Steve Finley had 5 seasons as high or higher, was he “elite” offensively? Curtis Granderson had a similar high spike in his second season, and I could see a case being made for parallels between Granderson and Rasmus. Vernon Wells also had a similar spike (and higher spike) in his second season ops.
http://sportsandgrits.blogspot.com/
I would say he was an elite CF in 2010….yes that doesnt necessarily mean he is elite going forward. There is certainly an argument that he isnt elite, he struck out a lot and had a high BABiP. but overall I’ll say he was elite in2010. and hold off judgment on whether he is elite in general.
"No. Lonely people mixing with one another? Breeding? Creating an even lonelier generation? You're not even allowing natural selection do its work. Pssh. You're like the guy who invented the seat belt."
Dwight Schrute
I would agree completely with...
what I think it is you are saying here: he was elite, i.e. one of the best, in CF last year only, with too little info for a more complete analysis, in he could be an Edmonds or Sizemore, maybe a Lankford, or could be a Granderson/Upton/Wilson.
http://sportsandgrits.blogspot.com/
i didnt read the whole post initially… and i am defining elite as top of the class of which he plays…currently there are no good CF, which means the bar is lower, so even if you were to agree that Rasmus is elite now, that doesnt mean he is in the same class as Griffey or Bernie or whomever…
and i love steve finley so your asking the wrong guy if he was elite…he was so underrated as a player its not funny.
i think when you look at it your way you are right, Rasmus isnt elite, but if you look at it as was he elite in 2010, then i am right….overall you probably have the better methodology for determingin eliteness (which we should make a stat for…and of course put it on the scoreboard so that people know its important).
"No. Lonely people mixing with one another? Breeding? Creating an even lonelier generation? You're not even allowing natural selection do its work. Pssh. You're like the guy who invented the seat belt."
Dwight Schrute
wait,...
did we run through every CF in the league yet? Until we do that, I’m not ready to classify him “elite”.
]said in sarcasm font]
http://sportsandgrits.blogspot.com/
And on Finley...
I kind of wondered whether or not to even mention him. He was overshadowed by the Griffey’s and Bernie’s, and even an Edmonds. I think some of his latter years (with the DBacks) had a bit of a home park advantage, but all in all he was definitely one of the better CFs of the last 20-30 years. As said, he had 5 seasons with an ops as good or better than what Rasmus had this year (.850 or so), better than Grady Sizemore’s career, and which is a far cry from the Rowand, Kemp, Upton, Rowand, Wilson, and Grandersons in that same paragraph. If you put him today and matched him with Sizemore, Rasmus, Kemp, Jones, etc, instead of with Griffey and Andruw and Bernie, etc, he could be the “best CF of his era” instead of somewhere in 5-10 range among CF for his era.
http://sportsandgrits.blogspot.com/
my favorite thing about FInley was that he could literally do anything on a baseball field…he just wasnt spectacular at anything…he obviously wasn’t like griffey but damn if he and Bernie switched career locations, it would be interesting.
"No. Lonely people mixing with one another? Breeding? Creating an even lonelier generation? You're not even allowing natural selection do its work. Pssh. You're like the guy who invented the seat belt."
Dwight Schrute
Bernie did have better and more consistent #s at the plate...
but then, the lineup around him may have helped there. That said, even if they were equal, I’d still give Bernie the nod because of his amazing guitar.
http://sportsandgrits.blogspot.com/
ya but has Bernie ever had his kitchen featured on HGTV…
i may have just outed myself.
"No. Lonely people mixing with one another? Breeding? Creating an even lonelier generation? You're not even allowing natural selection do its work. Pssh. You're like the guy who invented the seat belt."
Dwight Schrute
Maybe if Rasmus wasn't a shithead.
"The WAR folks like yunel apparently. i know this, bobby cox hated going to war with this guy." - Jon Heyman
Beyond the Box Score / Capitol Avenue Club / shwitter: @CapitolAvenue
Bullcrap
You do know the guy he got into a fight with was Tony LaRussa – the man personally responsible for multiple players being traded because of conflicts with him.
by vivaelpujols on Nov 9, 2010 12:16 AM EST up reply actions
Yes, if Rasmus had better character.
Good hitters never become bad hitters (they just may have an off-year) and very rarely have career-ending injuries. Neither can be said of good pitchers. Add to that the fact that you NEVER, NEVER, NEVER, EVER……………………………NEVER EVER trade productive hitters for a pitcher. Lest I remind you of some trades from the Braves’ past that went horribly, horribly wrong. I need only say three words (well, two words and a nonsensical made-up word) to still bring a cringe in the heart of every long-time Brave fan – Len…..“Peekaboo”…..Barker. Nuf said.
All that aside, I am sure we can find another great hitting prospect to trade Teheran for that isn’t, as the last poster so correctly pointed out, some much of a $h!^head.
by Chief Knockahomer on Nov 8, 2010 8:40 AM EST reply actions
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