Kawakami Clears Waivers, Outrighted to AA
Interesting to read down at the bottom that KK wasn't even invited to travel with the team to San Fran for the playoffs. Sad ending to his major league experience.
over 1 year ago
10-4
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coming up next, hopefully in the very immediate future: salary dump.
on the other hand, if FW had any great options on the salary dump front, why would this waiver move have happened?
maybe
its in preparation for the Rule 5 Draft? Nobody is going to take KK and if they do, we won’t care. However, someone could steal some cheap, controllable MiLB players who we might be a little upset about losing. I think it’s a win-win move for us if that’s why we did it.
by atlbravosfan on Nov 13, 2010 11:47 AM EST up reply actions
Exactly.
This opens up a 40-man spot for someone that could be taken in the draft.
-C
It’s rough to sit through these games and not have someone that can’t hit a Ball?
by cthabeerman on Nov 13, 2010 12:01 PM EST up reply actions
Something is about to happen
I just hope it’s something good!
DOB tweets:
GM Wren, on trading or selling Kawakami: “We’ve had a number of discussion over the last couple of weeks. I’ll leave it at that.”
Can there be any doubt...
that something happened during the meeting where he was told Jurrjens was taking his spot in the rotation and not Medlen’s? Without that, our handling of him makes absolutely no sense.
http://sportsandgrits.blogspot.com/
by Mr. Sanchez on Nov 13, 2010 11:58 AM EST up reply actions
that's what i'm assuming
otherwise, this whole thing has been terribly managed.
by kbertling353 on Nov 13, 2010 3:59 PM EST up reply actions
whoa
Hope Im missing the joke here.
"If I have asthma, they won't let me scuba. And if I can’t scuba, then what’s this all been about?? What am I working toward??"
"You look like you should be married to one of the San Diego Padres."
the joke is
that there is this guy that is clearly wrong, yet keeps coming back to say he’s right.
check out the KK fanpost. it’s trolling at this point probably.
by kbertling353 on Nov 13, 2010 3:57 PM EST up reply actions
Nice language...
and all of MLB would just let a potential 3 pass waivers.
http://sportsandgrits.blogspot.com/
Simple
Why claim someone when you know the Braves are going to release him? Teams can sign him to a cheaper deal. Plus, “number 3,4,5 starter” is garbage and arbitrary anyway.
KK is a decent back of the rotation starter (~4.5 FIP) that either did something to piss the Braves off or was handled terribly.
What do you find so difficult to understand? W-L record?
by kbertling353 on Nov 14, 2010 1:18 AM EST up reply actions
sigh,
i’m trolled so easily.
Hey TC, how about we put up a poll that asks if KK is an average back of the rotation starter?
by kbertling353 on Nov 14, 2010 1:22 AM EST up reply actions
Looking at other rotations around the league...
when healthy, he’s not a 3. He’s off more rotations than he could be a 3 for, what is so difficult about that to understand?
And you claim him so he’s yours, instead of competing with everyone else for his services as a free agent. If a team felt he was a potential 3rd best starter in their rotation, they’d have claimed him, or made the Braves an offer asking them to eat some salary since it’s pretty clear they’d accept scraps and eating 1/3 to 1/2 of his salary to get rid of him. Again, what’s so difficult about that to understand. But go back to your cursing.
http://sportsandgrits.blogspot.com/
So your point is that he's a 4 and not a 3?
Great. And stop crying about cursing- like it doesn’t happen constantly here.
by kbertling353 on Nov 14, 2010 4:10 PM EST up reply actions
If you don't understand the argument, why butt in?
The point was justin was wrong in his description about Kawakami. if you need further clarification, feel free to go back to the original thread. I’ve got no desire to rehash that argument with you.
http://sportsandgrits.blogspot.com/
I’m late to the party here, but I certainly wasn’t wrong. You proved nothing and completely ignored the numbers that I posted that proved I was right.
I really can’t believe that you keep bringing this up.
This guy wants to suck all the cubs dick can he not have an unbias some what partition reguards
by RWH2 on Apr 5, 2010 10:20 AM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Nov 14, 2010 5:37 PM EST up reply actions
So you are continuing the assertion that Kenshin could
be a 3rd starter for at least one playoff team and a dozen or more others?
http://sportsandgrits.blogspot.com/
Absolutely
This guy wants to suck all the cubs dick can he not have an unbias some what partition reguards
by RWH2 on Apr 5, 2010 10:20 AM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Nov 14, 2010 5:42 PM EST up reply actions
Then we are at an end...
because I simply couldn’t find that one playoff team, or more than a small handful of teams total, that he could be a 3 for. IMO, there he wouldn’t be on the rotation of more teams than he’d be a 3 for, mostly a 5 and on a few less a 4, assuming all others are healthy.
http://sportsandgrits.blogspot.com/
He didnt bring it up
Just sayin.
"If I have asthma, they won't let me scuba. And if I can’t scuba, then what’s this all been about?? What am I working toward??"
"You look like you should be married to one of the San Diego Padres."
But he’s a 3, FTW!
by Mr. Sanchez on Nov 13, 2010 10:56 AM CST
Just sayin’
This guy wants to suck all the cubs dick can he not have an unbias some what partition reguards
by RWH2 on Apr 5, 2010 10:20 AM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Nov 15, 2010 10:27 AM EST up reply actions
As evidence by...
all of MLB treating him like a leper.
Just sayin’.
http://sportsandgrits.blogspot.com/
by Mr. Sanchez on Nov 15, 2010 11:55 AM EST up reply actions
Or, they are waiting until we drop him and they can get him for a cheaper price, since they know we are not going to pay him this year.
It’s like me telling the whole neighborhood that I bought a new couch, and then offering to sell them my old one. Everyone is just going to wait until I put it out on the curb before they take it. It doesn’t mean that it isn’t a good couch or that they don’t want it. They just know that they can get it for free if they just wait a minute.
This guy wants to suck all the cubs dick can he not have an unbias some what partition reguards
by RWH2 on Apr 5, 2010 10:20 AM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Nov 15, 2010 3:33 PM EST up reply actions
Wrong...
it’s like you telling the whole neighborhood you bought a new couch, and if they want your old one, you’ll have it cleaned, hire movers to haul it to their house, put it in their living room, etc.
He’s been cut, they don’t have to pay the price. We’ve said we’re willing to pay as much as 1/2 to 2/3s of the deal apparently, so they don’t have to pay the price. The minutes have passed, and they can get him for free now. They keep waiting. Why are they still waiting is the question, because while you and I disagree on his quality to an extent, we are in full agreement that he could be of use to some MLB team.
But keep telling yourself that we can’t determine the demand of him vs. Edwin Jackson, while one gets treated like a leper and the other gets passed around like the clap in a Thai brothel.
http://sportsandgrits.blogspot.com/
Does Edwin Jackson cost nearly $7M? Is the team that owns Edwin Jackson in a position to let him walk, due to their pitching strength?
KK is owed a lot a money and is under contract with a team that has no use for him. Smart GMs would wait.
This guy wants to suck all the cubs dick can he not have an unbias some what partition reguards
by RWH2 on Apr 5, 2010 10:20 AM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Nov 16, 2010 8:10 AM EST up reply actions
Now whyd you have to go and prove me wrong?
Scrolling up was hard.
"If I have asthma, they won't let me scuba. And if I can’t scuba, then what’s this all been about?? What am I working toward??"
"You look like you should be married to one of the San Diego Padres."
And for the record, I'd say he's a 4/5
redistribute starters evenly amongst teams, and he’d either be one of the worse 4s or better 5s imo. There’d be at least 100, if not 120 or so, starters I’d rather have in my rotation league wide.
http://sportsandgrits.blogspot.com/
It all depends on whether he is 2009 KK or 2010 KK
If you think he is 2009 KK or a bit better, he could be a three, if he is 2010 KK, not so much.
Its the cursing thats directed specifically at people thats the problem.
"If I have asthma, they won't let me scuba. And if I can’t scuba, then what’s this all been about?? What am I working toward??"
"You look like you should be married to one of the San Diego Padres."
What
I thoughtthat he Braves had a deal in place to ship him back overseas.Any type of deal to get rid of this guy would suffice.This is one move Wren botched up,in my opinion he has done an ok job and I would give him a thumbs up on his job performnance thus far.Saying that he was a lil to deparate when he signed this guy and he gave a bad contract to this man.I hope he does everything he can and I mean everything to get something for this man even if he has to eat half of the contract.
I feel bad for KK
and wish him the best of luck in Japan or wherever he pitches next year.
My favorite KK moment was his start in LA last year. He threw like 120 pitches and he was in such a groove that he would bounce and dance around the mound whenever he didn’t get a call. Good times.
'Terrible preview...pretty weak, didn't learn anything new. pretty sad." - mastermike
Makes you wonder
The way that this whole situation was handled kind of gives me the impression that Kawakami’s disuse and subsequent demotion was not strictly performance based. I wouldn’t be surprised if there were some underlying motivational/attitude problems as well. Maybe he didn’t respond well to Bobby’s or Roger’s suggestions and criticisms. Maybe he really didn’t like living and playing in the US and because of it, he wasn’t putting forth lot of effort. Maybe the conspiracy theory section of my brain is just in overdrive.
This is similar to what I was thinking as well. We’ll probably never know the truth…
'Terrible preview...pretty weak, didn't learn anything new. pretty sad." - mastermike
by Scott Coleman on Nov 13, 2010 12:52 PM EST up reply actions
Hard to say
He chose to not sign with an NPB team, and come to America. He had several suitors out there, and he chose to come to the Atlanta Braves. It’s not like he was extradited from Japanese baseball, and begrudgingly played in MLB because there was no other option. Maybe he’ll one day return to Japan, and give an interview about his experience in the United States, and we’ll get some clearer answers someday.
No wonder nobody likes you, Tuttle... everything's a (Pujols) damn debate.
Well i think there’s definitely a possibility of a grass isn’t always greener on the other side sort of situation. It could be that he wanted to come to the states to play ball, but wasn’t sure what that entailed, and when he got here it wasn’t as he imagined and wasn’t happy with the situation for whatever reason.
I don’t think this is the case, as there is absolutely no evidence of it, its all conjecture, but who knows.
"No. Lonely people mixing with one another? Breeding? Creating an even lonelier generation? You're not even allowing natural selection do its work. Pssh. You're like the guy who invented the seat belt."
Dwight Schrute
You can't really
hold that against him in hindsight, though. Yes, he chose to play American baseball with likely little real understanding of how American professional baseball works compared with Japan. If indeed, he became disenfranchised with the game here, who knows what may be the cause.
But it’s unfair to castigate him for that.
"Jason Heyward was a Greek philosopher reincarnated as a baseball player." - Don Sutton
I’m not seeing that. As much money as committed to him, he also has a responsibility to play to his best ability and earn his paycheck. Giving him a pass because he might have been disenchanted a bit is childish. I’ve had jobs that I was exited about on the front end, but quickly soured on, but that didn’t stop me from taking care of business, because you know what? If I didn’t I got fired. This is an adult we’re talking about here. If the explanation really is that he didn’t find American baseball to be what he tought it was and he’s just been sulking through it with minimal effort, then we have every right to be furious with him. That said, we have no way of knowing if that’s the explanantion. I’m just saying that if it is, that’s no reason to cut him some slack. He should man the hell up and do his job.
Does Paul Emmel get a ring too?
Is there any indication...
… that he has refused an assignment or even bitched about his lack of usage? If there any indication that he hasn’t tried as hard as he could or was lax in his preparation or conditioning? If he is trying his best just not performing well, I don’t see how you blame him for that. Maybe his game just didn’t translate as well to the majors as other Japanese pitchers. Telling him to man up and do his job is nice, but if he just doesn’t have the stuff, there is nothing he can do about that, no?
You’ll note I was responding to the assertion that he was unmotivated, while acknowledging that may very well not be the case. And he does have the stuff to succeed, he showed us that in his first year. IF his play dropped off due to being disenchanted with American baseball after a year here, that is a pathetic, childish excuse for coming back this year and not trying. IF THAT’S THE CASE. Please don’t make me disclaim it again.
Does Paul Emmel get a ring too?
It looks like this all comes from the first post above by...
…pauleyicecubes. I think I will go with the final line from his post and say the conspiracy part of his brain was in overdrive. There is no indication that he has done anything but try his best—-the specualation comes purely from the thought that the Braves would not have done what they did with him if there wasn’t a problem. That seems like a pretty weak hook for speculating that there is a personality problem with a guy who pretty much took everything in stride, didn’t make excuses, and didn’t bitch about disuse and demotion.
This is my thinking as well:
The way that this whole situation was handled kind of gives me the impression that Kawakami’s disuse and subsequent demotion was not strictly performance based. I wouldn’t be surprised if there were some underlying motivational/attitude problems as well.
*Just Chill* when things start to look a bit difficult-don't panic as you take away your ability to think straight. Go Braves! Go Dawgs! Go Falcons!
I don’t think its an effort problem. KK always stated that he always gave his best and won’t make excuses when he messes up. I think its something else like you stated or communication problems. Either way, I think he was treated poorly and would be an asset to every team
by Braves24 on Nov 13, 2010 4:55 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
No matter what happens
I still support the KK signing. I mean, just look at the team’s 2008 stats. Jorge Campillo started the second most innings that year. Jorge Campillo! JoJo had over 100 IP for us. 11 different people started games for us that season. We desperately needed pitching, Timmy was out with TJ and no one could have predicted that Vazquez was going to do what he did in 2009.
DLowe was the only predictable pitcher we had heading into 2009. We needed to take chances like KK.
"If I have asthma, they won't let me scuba. And if I can’t scuba, then what’s this all been about?? What am I working toward??"
"You look like you should be married to one of the San Diego Padres."
Is this a precursor for a trade?
The only reason to do it is to clear room on the 40-man roster. Makes me think that this means we will be adding someone to the 40-man roster soon. Could just be a kid that we are protecting from the Rule 5 draft, but it could be a move.
DOB
Stated that it might have something to do with the Rule 5 draft since the players have to be added to the 40-man by Nov. 19.
could be a precursor
to having another 7 million to spend on another bat (if KK declines, he declines and cancels his contract).
by apoxonbothyourhouses on Nov 13, 2010 3:01 PM EST reply actions
Sounds like....
getting shed of KK is turning into a problem. I’m to the point I hope we get SOMETHING for him. Paying $6.67M for a Minor Leaguer might put a dent in the Braves outfield plans.
Write your own recap!.....mvhsbball
Who has the highest trading value? Because it sure isn’t KK. While people may think dumping KK right now would be a great move, and it may, that doesn’t mean it will be a great move in the future. He doesn’t have the worst contract on this team. Just two years ago he showed he can be a MOR starter and can at least be worth is contract if not more.
by Braves24 on Nov 13, 2010 5:10 PM EST via mobile reply actions
KK doesn't fit in
I’ve said it before and I have been ripped for it…KK clashes with the Braves way. Those on the inside questionhis competitiveness, his ability to be a good teammate, and his overall toughness. He is not a good clubhouse guy, and no one has his back. The brass have grown tired of him not stepping up, delivering when needed, and getting the tough outs.
Blast me if you want, but Im telling you the truth…and I’m not acting like I know something…it’s truth.
They are hoping he will cut ties and go away. Some say that he doesn’t deserve the way he is being treated and it doesn’t make sense. It makes perfect sense. Read between the lines!!! A pitcher who is supposed to be a quality figure for the Braves and is being paid 6.67 million is no longer considered a needed asset and has been DEMOTED to AA.
This organization doesn’t make moves like this unless there is a reason…and I’m telling you there is a reason. As I have said before…in time, you will know why KK has been hung out to dry!
by Braves12 on Nov 13, 2010 9:09 PM EST via mobile reply actions
Competitiveness…a yr ago he was “dragon slayer”
“good teammate”….he blamed himself for the loss when the Braves got no hit by Colorado
“not a good clubhouse guy”….he sure had fun with the rookie hazing, dressing up as a nimja
I really wonder if you know what you are talking about or pulling this stuff out of thin air. Kawakami looks to be done as a Brave, it didn’t work out too well. It’s too bad. But he doesn’t deserve to be roasted like you did in this post. At least know something about the guy before you hang him.
Write your own recap!.....mvhsbball
Trust me, I know plenty!!! Ask the guys in the know, they’ll tell you what goes on in and around the clubhouse. They all have lost confidence in the guy.
I challenge you to find one player who comes to his defense. Find one reporter on the inside who stands up for him.
My guys in the inside have said this has been a long time coming!
Take it or leave it.
by Braves12 on Nov 14, 2010 11:33 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
I don’t doubt for a second that they have lost confidense in him, that players and/or reporters would shy away from coming to his defense. I just think you are wrong when you say he’s a bad teammate, or not “competitive”. That is not the KK I have watched for 2 years. He doesn’t blame his teammates (publicly) for lack of run support, he shoulders the blame himself. I don’t know any “insiders”, so I am at a disadvantage since you claim to know what goes on in the clubhouse.
Write your own recap!.....mvhsbball
Bighop…I don’t feel like I have misrepresented the KK situation. Yes, it’s unfortunate, but he’s made his own bed. He will NEVER be a Brave again, and NO ONE on the inside is complaining about it!
You say you have never seen a lack of competitiveness and he is a great teammate. Those in the clubhouse and front office don’t agree, which is why they are begging, scratching, and pleading with anyone to take a guy with $6 million still owed…and no one wants him…because he is not a serviceable MLB pitcher. That is a cheap cost for a vet in the rotation!
by Braves12 on Nov 14, 2010 2:26 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Also, he didn’t make a great impression in Gwinnett either.
by Braves12 on Nov 14, 2010 2:28 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
The things you are saying, however...
…aren’t things that make him a bad teammate or a clubhouse cancer—-they are just things saying his pitching skills are not good enough. There’s a difference there. That being said, I think everyone agrees his time with the Braves is over.
Absolutely
I’m not saying let’s give him another chance, I agree he is toast as a Brave.. I’m saying he has been a humble decent human being, hasn’t badmouthed his teammates, didn’t bitch and moan about the demotion and during the ultimate “clubhouse” activity, rookie hazing, he embraced it and looked like he had fun with it. I also have a problem accepting that a guy can go from “dragon slayer” to lacking “competitiveness” in less than a year. I don’t know what happened to KK in 2010, his peripherals have lots of similarities to his 2009 numbers. But with the pitching situation in Atlanta, his time is past. I hope we can unload him, but it doesn’t look like it’s going to be easy.
Write your own recap!.....mvhsbball
With respect to Lizziebeth
Does this look like a bad clubhouse guy, his interpreter even got in on it
http://www.talkingchop.com/2009/9/24/1050655/rookie-hazing-2009
Write your own recap!.....mvhsbball
Publically, we've seen nothing to show as much...
the point is thpough, there HAS to be something we don’t know about that happened privately that hasn’t been revealed publically to explain the inexplicable treatment of anotherwise below average, but still useful, starting pitcher.
http://sportsandgrits.blogspot.com/
That's fine
But does he suddenly no longer have “competitive” in his make up? Are people suggesting he threw a fit in the clubhouse and NOBODY mentioned it? Did he call Bobby a gray headed old fool? I think that might have leaked. Frenchy sure raised hell about his demotion, did KK? I have no clue what happened, NOTHING has been reported. Maybe something did, I don’t know. The only thing in the original post I agree with is “nobody has his back”. I’m really sorry, but I’m not buying “insiders” without someone to attribute it to.
Write your own recap!.....mvhsbball
It could just be...
…that Cox or the Braves in general lost confidence in his abilities and decided not to use him. It might just be as simple as that.
See the year before...
Hudson came back, and he was at least used out of the bullpen. We chose to use Chavez, among others, instead out of the bullpen this year. Something happened. He wasn’t bad out of the pen in low leverage situations last year, so there’s no reason to think he couldn’t have done the same this year. They said he would be the emergency starter, but when the time came for needing one (and it happened twice), he “wasn’t ready”, when we were in complete control over whether or not he’d be “ready”.
While I’m on record saying his abilities were bad enough he’d be a back end, at best starter, Bobby himself said publically they were confident in him UNTIL that meeting. Our handling of him changed completely pre and post that decision. Er go, something happened in that meeting.
http://sportsandgrits.blogspot.com/
Not hard to figure out. They wanted to send him to AAA because he wasn’t one of the 5 best starters, they lost faith in him, and there were people they’d rather have out of the ’pen than KK.
He refused, as his contract stipulates he can, so Wren/Cox got pissed off at him for not being a team player and chose to let him sit on the bench rather than use him in games in the hopes that shame/boredom would eventually get him to accept the assignment to AAA.
"They should just give two ROYs in the NL and skip the AL this year." - KLaw
This seems like rank speculation to me.
There has never been anything reported about KK refusing an assignment or not being a team player. Everything that has been reported indicates the opposite. So, we are going to assume that the Braves wouldn’t just let him sit idle and therefore it must be KK? That seems pretty weak to me. I think my simpler explanation above is more likely.
Ahhh, the infamous anonymous person with anonymous inside sources strikes again!
This guy wants to suck all the cubs dick can he not have an unbias some what partition reguards
by RWH2 on Apr 5, 2010 10:20 AM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Nov 14, 2010 5:41 PM EST up reply actions
this
that was such a well pitched game…
by forgotten_glory on Nov 14, 2010 1:24 AM EST up reply actions
If only he had not gotten hit in that game against the Yankees…this could all have turned out so differenlty.
This guy wants to suck all the cubs dick can he not have an unbias some what partition reguards
by RWH2 on Apr 5, 2010 10:20 AM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Nov 14, 2010 5:41 PM EST reply actions
?????
no subject
http://sportsandgrits.blogspot.com/
by Mr. Sanchez on Nov 15, 2010 12:00 PM EST up reply actions
I couldn’t put just the ?s, so added no subject. Hit against the Yankees? Huh?
http://sportsandgrits.blogspot.com/
by Mr. Sanchez on Nov 15, 2010 12:22 PM EST up reply actions
KK pitches for the Atlanta Braves (or he used to). One time, these Atlanta Braves played against a team called the New York Yankees. When they played this game, this guy named Kenshin was the starting pitcher. He was brilliant – perfect even – before getting hit with a ball and knocking him out of the game. He was never quite the same after that.
This guy wants to suck all the cubs dick can he not have an unbias some what partition reguards
by RWH2 on Apr 5, 2010 10:20 AM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Nov 15, 2010 3:35 PM EST up reply actions
thanks jackass...
I forgot when he got the struck by the comebacker. So that’s what you’re blaming now for the league’s complete lack of interest in him?
http://sportsandgrits.blogspot.com/
Hello, Mr. Extremes. It’s good to see you again.
This guy wants to suck all the cubs dick can he not have an unbias some what partition reguards
by RWH2 on Apr 5, 2010 10:20 AM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Nov 16, 2010 8:11 AM EST up reply actions
Perfect timing
Fangraphs: Kawakami Deserves a MLB Roster Spot
Coming soon: winningugly visits Atlanta, takes dump in royhobbs’ Braves hat.
That article is bogus. It doesn’t have a list of names to support its theory.
This guy wants to suck all the cubs dick can he not have an unbias some what partition reguards
by RWH2 on Apr 5, 2010 10:20 AM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Nov 15, 2010 3:40 PM EST up reply actions
It also doesn't say he is capable of being a 3...
just that he simply deserves a roster spot.
But keep deluding yourself that he can be a 3 for a dozen or so teams, including playoff teams, when in reality he would only be a 3 for the absolute worst rotations in baseball, and no better than an arguable 5 for a dozen or so teams.
http://sportsandgrits.blogspot.com/
I have a plan:
You two gentlemen need to find a neutral site for a meeting and settle this thing.
Knifes, dueling pistols, or maybe one of those cage things – doesn’t matter.
Just do it.
Just make sure to hug it out at the end.
"If I have asthma, they won't let me scuba. And if I can’t scuba, then what’s this all been about?? What am I working toward??"
"You look like you should be married to one of the San Diego Padres."
I cannot deny your list of names. It was quite convincing.
This guy wants to suck all the cubs dick can he not have an unbias some what partition reguards
by RWH2 on Apr 5, 2010 10:20 AM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Nov 16, 2010 8:12 AM EST up reply actions
If a "list of names" is all you think was said...
you are too stupid or reading comprehension impaired to understand, otherwise you are just being a jerk.
http://sportsandgrits.blogspot.com/
If you think you posted anything more than a list of names, then your comment here reflects back on you.
This guy wants to suck all the cubs dick can he not have an unbias some what partition reguards
by RWH2 on Apr 5, 2010 10:20 AM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Nov 17, 2010 12:58 AM EST up reply actions
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