The Morning Aftermath: Reexamining The Braves Game One Loss To The Giants
by gondeee on Oct 8, 2010 10:58 AM EDT
in Braves Game Recaps
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Upon reflection of last night's game, I feel the Braves essentially got no-hit. Here is the comparison between Roy Halladay's postseason no-hitter and Tim Lincecum's start last night:
| Pitchers |
H |
R |
ER |
BB |
SO |
Pitches |
Strikes |
GO/AO |
| Roy Halladay on 10/6 |
0 |
0 |
0 |
1 |
8 |
104 |
79 |
12-6 |
| Tim Lincecum on 10/7 |
2 |
0 |
0 |
1 |
14 |
119 |
75 |
4-9 |
Yep, it might as well have been a no-hitter. The Braves were flailing wildly at Lincecum's pitches. And they once again didn't do the small things they have to do to win games -- beginning in the first inning. We get our leadoff man on second base, and Jason Heyward can't advance him to third, instead he flies out to left field, not deep enough to advance Omar Infante to third base. That's an incredibly key play. With the big sluggers coming up behind him, Heyward has to be almost sacrificial in hitting the ball to the right side to advance the runner.
Of course Derek Lee and Brian McCann promptly strike out and strand Infante at second, but they may have approached their at-bats differently -- especially Lee -- if there was a runner at third with only one out. This, as it turns out, was the best scoring opportunity of the game for Atlanta. Yes, Brian McCann advanced to third base in the seventh, but with two outs it would have taken a base hit or an error to get him home, and Matt Diaz could not deliver.
I'm not advocating that Heyward should have been bunting or anything, but he should have been making a more concerted effort to pull the ball to the right side. Of course, that's easier said than done against Lincecum. My fear is that because of our inability to score runs, Bobby Cox may resort to more of a small-ball approach, perhaps with players who should be swinging away.
Maybe every pitch tonight will look slow and big to the Braves hitters without Lincecum on the mound. They're going to have to find ways to swing and make contact. Did you know that every player in the Braves liineup except Infante struck out at least once last night. This strikeout crap can't continue.
But I don't know if there's any solution to that problem. Guys like Alex Gonzalez and Brooks Conrad and Rick Ankiel just strike out a lot. There's no solution to that problem just like there's no solution to the defensive woes that plagued us last night. Conrad has committed an error in five straight games, and Infante is capable, but unspectacular wherever you put him in the field.
The reality of this Braves team is that it's not really the team that got the Braves to the postseason. No Chipper Jones and no Martin Prado are huge omissions if Atlanta wants to have a successful offense and defense. The Braves will have to make do with what they have left. It's like the team is going into each game knowing they're going to have to cover up a few mistakes. This will be a tough uphill fight.
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FTFY
The Braves will have to make do with what they have left. It’s like the team is going into each game knowing they’re going to have to cover up a few mistakes and blown calls by the umps
Came here to say this. Going back to bed now.
by J-Freak on Oct 8, 2010 11:59 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Good catch on a glaring omission
+1
What is both surprising and delightful is that spectators are allowed, and even expected, to join in the vocal part of the game.... There is no reason why the field should not try to put the batsman off his stroke at the critical moment by neatly timed disparagements of his wife's fidelity and his mother's respectability. ~George Bernard Shaw
Woe is us.
"It breaks your heart. It is designed to break your heart. The game begins in the spring, when everything else begins again, and it blossoms in the summer, filling the afternoons and evenings, and then as soon as the chill rains come, it stops and leaves you to face the fall alone." A. Bartlett Giamatti
In hindsight
bunting was probably the best chance at anything happening.
by Infield Elephant on Oct 8, 2010 11:25 AM EDT reply actions
I was actually afraid Bobby was going to bunt in the first inning. It ran through my mind that knowing runs were going to be scarce given Lincecum and the Braves’ offense, he might try to play for 1 run in the first inning and hope it was enough. It turns out, it would have gotten the Braves to extra innings. But, there is no way I would ever want to see Heyward bunt in that situation, or, really, in any situation.
I have very few criticisms of Bobby as a manager. But the one thing I don’t like is how much he bunts. I hope he doesn’t start bunting in the first inning.
If Bobby doesn't want Heyward bunting...
then don’t bat him 2nd. It’s what a #2 hitter has to do sometimes. I know Bobby doesn’t want to hit Heyward 3rd (and he’s been great at 2), but if he’s going to be a 2 hole hitter, then let’s have him bunt here.
no.
a #2 is supposed to be one of your best hitters on your team, so that isn’t “what he has to do sometimes.” especially when there is a runner on 2b in the first freaking inning
by lingsched on Oct 8, 2010 12:56 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Generally
your second best hitter on the team in fact, considering he statistically will get the second most at bats.
by Andy Braves Fan on Oct 8, 2010 2:31 PM EDT up reply actions
If you look at Halladay’s line in the no-hitter and Lincecum’s line from last night, it does look like Lincecum pitched better. You can’t do much better than 14 strikeouts to 1 walk. He certainly pitched well enough to earn a no-hitter. Two hits … no hits, that comes down to luck.
But, I don’t know if his command was as good as Halladay’s. He was actually a little wild at times. In a lot of at bats, I don’t think anybody knew where the ball was going, Lincecum or the hitter. Unfortunately, the Braves’ game plan was to be aggressive and not let him get ahead in the count. Given his wildness, a more patient approach would have been better. But, even when Lincecum left one out over the plate, the Braves couldn’t take advantage.
The Braves faced a great pitcher, didn’t take advantage of the opportunities they had, went in with what turned out to be a bad game plan offensively, made 2 errors (it almost could have been 4) and had a critical call go against them. And they still only lost 1-0. Other than the errors, I really don’t feel all that bad about how the game went. Plus, Game 1 was the game that most favored the Giants. I think the Braves have the pitching advantage tonight and then the pitching and home field advantage for game 3.
this
"I wasn’t thinking about it. That’s the worst celebration of all time. I didn’t know what to do. I got lost in the moment." - Brian McCann
by HansonManCrush on Oct 8, 2010 11:47 AM EDT up reply actions
Both the Braves hits were doubles that were hit really hard. They might have been HRs at CBP. I wouldn’t be so quick to write those off as luck. I didn’t get to see all of Halladay’s game but I don’t think anyone really hit the ball hard off of him at all.
I disagree
Infante’s double was a line drive that pseudo-spit the gap… It didn’t even get to the warning track… SF OF’s were just slow getting to it
"I wasn’t thinking about it. That’s the worst celebration of all time. I didn’t know what to do. I got lost in the moment." - Brian McCann
by HansonManCrush on Oct 8, 2010 12:13 PM EDT up reply actions
The Braves can have a real home field advantage if they win tonight. Take one from them in New Candlestick, and have two home games to close it out.
What is both surprising and delightful is that spectators are allowed, and even expected, to join in the vocal part of the game.... There is no reason why the field should not try to put the batsman off his stroke at the critical moment by neatly timed disparagements of his wife's fidelity and his mother's respectability. ~George Bernard Shaw
I’m counting on just that :-)
My avatar says it for me...
"Curve: The loveliest distance between two points." ~ Mae West
No worries. I got a friend that's on the case:
What is both surprising and delightful is that spectators are allowed, and even expected, to join in the vocal part of the game.... There is no reason why the field should not try to put the batsman off his stroke at the critical moment by neatly timed disparagements of his wife's fidelity and his mother's respectability. ~George Bernard Shaw
Don't forget the KFC.
"The truth will set you free. But not until it is finished with you." ~ David Foster Wallace
Thanks for the reminder.
Of course, I already have the most important ingredient for success:
What is both surprising and delightful is that spectators are allowed, and even expected, to join in the vocal part of the game.... There is no reason why the field should not try to put the batsman off his stroke at the critical moment by neatly timed disparagements of his wife's fidelity and his mother's respectability. ~George Bernard Shaw
Jobu would be drunk for 3 months off that much rum.
"Jason Heyward was a Greek philosopher reincarnated as a baseball player." - Don Sutton
Gondee...
14 hours, tops.
-C
It’s rough to sit through these games and not have someone that can’t hit a Ball?
One thing to keep in mind about Jobu:
No matter how drunk he gets, or for how long…he does not have to swing the bat, catch the ball, or pitch.
All he has to do is wave a tomahawk around for @ 3 hours. Also keep in mind that he’ll be on the end table next to my recliner for the game, and that I may very well end up getting brained sometime before the seventh inning stretch. But that’s okay. I’ll gladly take one for the team. Just try to speak my name in these hallowed halls fondly.
Signed,
Chops
What is both surprising and delightful is that spectators are allowed, and even expected, to join in the vocal part of the game.... There is no reason why the field should not try to put the batsman off his stroke at the critical moment by neatly timed disparagements of his wife's fidelity and his mother's respectability. ~George Bernard Shaw
I wish our offense had your courage to take one for the team.
by king of games on Oct 8, 2010 4:00 PM EDT up reply actions
Hats for bats
Keep bats warm
"I wasn’t thinking about it. That’s the worst celebration of all time. I didn’t know what to do. I got lost in the moment." - Brian McCann
by HansonManCrush on Oct 8, 2010 1:17 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Whoa...whoa amigo...
You can’t just….
You’re welcome.
Eddie V
by DolphinNation on Oct 8, 2010 1:19 PM EDT up reply actions
I thought he was an Olympic curler.
What is both surprising and delightful is that spectators are allowed, and even expected, to join in the vocal part of the game.... There is no reason why the field should not try to put the batsman off his stroke at the critical moment by neatly timed disparagements of his wife's fidelity and his mother's respectability. ~George Bernard Shaw
Strike out vs. walk
By my count there were at least a half dozen swinging strike outs with ball three counts, on pitches way out of the zone. Both Lee and McCann should have (could have) walked in the 1st – bases loaded 1 out then what??. It seems there a mentality that they don’t want to be called out on strikes and they’re guessing – maybe with Lincecum you do. They can’t keep striking out on ball four if they want to win.
I know Braves fans are mystified at why there were so many swings but that Timmy's thing
He also developed a new pitch since the Braves last saw him
Check out the analysis: Here
and the Braves’ hitters quotes:
And Lincecum, who’d won five of his last six starts, and who’d struck out 23 batters in 20 innings since re-gripping his slider, made it 37 strikeouts in 29 innings including the October start.
"It changes him," said Lee, who struck out three times.
"It makes him a different animal," said Matt Diaz(notes), who was the fourth of five consecutive strikeouts in the first and second innings.
"All of a sudden, it’s in the catcher’s mitt," said Brooks Conrad(notes), who whiffed twice.
Along came the Braves, who’d seen Lincecum plenty and heard about his fresh pitch, but in the batters’ box couldn’t distinguish it from his fastball, not amid Lincecum’s unique mechanics. What they saw was a black No. 55, then left ear, then glove, then hair, then left leg, then right arm, all before ball. And then it was too late.
Six months before they’d been no-hit by Colorado’s Ubaldo Jimenez(notes).
"We might have hit more balls hard in the no-hitter," Diaz said. "His slider is new. It’s harder and more frequent than he threw. You can’t see it out of his hand.
"On my first strikeout, the second strike was a slider I missed by maybe a millimeter. The third I missed by two feet. And they looked like the same pitch."
Lee, who’d batted .375 against Lincecum in 17 prior plate appearances, merely shrugged at the thought of hitting what one can’t see.
"We were informed of it," he said of the slider, "but I have never seen him throw it like that."
"We were informed of it"?
Are you kidding me? This is a professional baseball organization?
How does your scouting not provide more information coupled with video that demonstrates the improvement in his slider? I’m not saying that will make a guaranteed difference, but it makes the whole team sound like they didn’t prepare at all.
"Jason Heyward was a Greek philosopher reincarnated as a baseball player." - Don Sutton
TP in locker room, 20 mins before game time
“Hey guys, you know how Tim Lincecum is really good and stuff? Well, I forgot to tell you earlier that he has a new pitch or something, so keep an eye out for that, mm kay? Okay, good luck guys.”
by Infield Elephant on Oct 8, 2010 11:49 AM EDT up reply actions
Have you played baseball?
Watching film of someone playing and actually playing against them in a game is a much different thing. I agree that at some point, someone should have said, “Hey, we are all swinging and missing at ball 4 low and away. Let’s lay off next time we get to a full count and see what happens.” It would have been a better idea than swinging every single time and missing.
that's all well and good
but after he went through the order twice doing the same pitch, you’d think they would be expecting it. at least enough to just sit back and see. if he struck you out, ok fine, but maybe the next guy would benefit.
fact is, he never had to change because the Braves kept offering at it and looking silly.
The issue is as a hitter you can't
differentiate between Linecum’s fastball, slider, and changeup at release…the reason why the hitters swing at “bad pitches” is because it looks like a fastball coming out of Lincecum’s hand and thus they have to commit early.
Did you see how many fastballs down the middle they watched?
The hitters were just guessing all night. That’s what happens when you face elite pitching. You think he’s throwing curve, he throws fastball.
by king of games on Oct 8, 2010 12:12 PM EDT up reply actions
That is also
a reflection on his unique delivery. It would be hard enough to figure him out with a normal delivery.
by Andy Braves Fan on Oct 8, 2010 12:18 PM EDT up reply actions
Honestly, it acted more like a split than a SL, it was that good
If Albert played in the AFL, they’d have to rename it the AZ/NM Fall League, based on where his homers landed.
Yeah, Linecum only walked one, but he easily could have walked several more. I don’t fault Heyward for swinging at the slider in the dirt, even though it look awful, because everything Lincecum throws moves so much. When you get behind in the count, you’ve just go to swing. Which, is why you try to not get behind with Lincecum.
The problem, I think, was more in their approach early in the count. A more patient approach early in the count likely would have led to more 3-0 and 3-1 counts where the Braves could just layoff the breaking stuff and the high fastballs and draw a few walks. The aggressive approach was probably a good idea going in, but it didn’t work out. Maybe they should have adjusted as the game went on.
Mike Krukow...former Giants pitcher and current broadcaster
made a point that hitters start swinging early in the count with pitchers like Lincecum because they don’t want to get to a 2 strike count especially when he’s got 3-4 pitchers to strikeout the hitters out on…that makes them extra aggressive to swing at anything that looks close.
No
Lincecum’s SL was just sick. It was plain unfair. Even when everyone in the stadium knew he was throwing it with 2 strikes, they still couldn’t hold up (although I think he got one swinging strikeout with the CU).
If Albert played in the AFL, they’d have to rename it the AZ/NM Fall League, based on where his homers landed.
Last night was very much what I expected it to be
Besides the blown call, I was infuriated but not surprised. With replacement level fielders, nonChipper or Prado, this has the potential to be a short and depressing series. I hope we can get something going tonight. As mad as I am about the blown call, we couldn’t touch Lincecum all night and I’m more worried about whether this team can score enough runs to pull even tonight.
by E-Lizz on Oct 8, 2010 11:51 AM EDT via mobile reply actions
Here’s what everyone keeps missing: we couldn’t touch Limcecum, but dammit, they couldn’t touch Lowe and the bullpen either. Without that blown call we could have done what we’re built to do, which is last out a guy like Lincecum if we have to and grab a run from their pen. Yes, Lincecum was good and no, we didn’t adjust to him. But our staff battled him to a stalemate. Unfortunately we’ll never know if we would have pulled off one of our patented late-inning comebacks against their pen because Selig loves the “human element” too much. But please, for the love of God, lets stop pretending that we were the only team that looked pretty bad against opposing pitching last night.
by J-Freak on Oct 8, 2010 12:08 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions 2 recs
I love ya man.
"It breaks your heart. It is designed to break your heart. The game begins in the spring, when everything else begins again, and it blossoms in the summer, filling the afternoons and evenings, and then as soon as the chill rains come, it stops and leaves you to face the fall alone." A. Bartlett Giamatti
It's like THIS and like THAT and like THIS and uh.
"Jason Heyward was a Greek philosopher reincarnated as a baseball player." - Don Sutton
This.
So much this. If that blown call hadn’t happened, the Giants wouldn’t have scored at all either. And Lincecum couldn’t have lasted over 9 innings. At 2am last night I was telling a friend of mine that we very easily could have still been playing into the 20th inning with the score tied at zero.
THIS
I’ve been saying it all day… our pitching was nearly as spectacular as theirs last night, and a blown call directly affected the outcome of the game. People keep trying to tell me, no, you can’t blame the outcome on the blown call… BS. In the end, the outcome (SF wins) may have ended up being the same, but it very well could have taken 17 innings to get there. getting that call right wasn’t going to magically make one side’s pitching fall apart.
But please, for the love of God, lets stop pretending that we were the only team that looked pretty bad against opposing pitching last night.
Okay, I didn’t say we were the only team who looked bad. Lowe pitched outstanding. Our bullpen – outstanding. It wasn’t blowout, we didn’t roll over. Without that blown call, it could have gone scoreless through nine. I’m not defending the human element and there should obviously be replay so those things shouldn’t happen. I was simply making the point we looked so bad all night, we still might have lost it in the bottom of the 9th, when Lowe wasn’t pitching anymore.
I know you didn’t specifically say we didn’t pitch well, and I’m not singling you out. But there are WAY too many people talking about how we lost that game because we didn’t solve Lincecum, and that’s just total bunk. We lost that game due to yet another shitty postseason umpire. Both pitching staffs were on their games yesterday and what should have been a scoreless duel going to extras became an umpire-granted Giants victory.
Gut-check time for everyone who’s whining about us not solving Lincecum: He’s a two-time Cy Young winner; there’s a reason he held us scoreless last night. But we DID NOT lose that game for lack of solving him. We lost on account of a blown call and were unjustly deprived of the opportunity to win it in ten or more. PERIOD.
I'm glad you brought up the first inning
Watching it live, I was thinking “This would be a great time to get him in and set the tone”. Then Heyward popped up to left, and i knew exactly what was going to happen next. I shook it off as “well its early”, but in the end it turned out to be just as big as the blown call or Infante’s missing the ball. We’ve been seeing this far too often lately, and for a team that is struggling on offense and defense, those missed opportunities get magnified even more.
Coming soon: winningugly visits Atlanta, takes dump in royhobbs’ Braves hat.
Maybe Heyward should have been trying to hit the ball the other way, but on the other hand, against Lincecum if try too hard to place the ball, you probably aren’t going to hit it at all. Hitting the ball where you want to hit it is pretty hard against any pitcher. I mean, if hitters were so good they could just hit a nice ground ball to the right side, or hard fly ball to right field against the best pitcher in the world, would they ever strike out?
I think we expect way too much of hitters sometimes. At least he made contact, which most of the time is the best thing a hitter can do.
This.
Heyward really put together some really good ABs last night, better than anyone else on the team. The fact of the matter is Lincecum is a Cy Young winner for a reason, and he was throwing some of his best stuff last night. Hopefully we can get to Cain tonight and split the Aces, that’s really all anyone can ask for against the Giants.
by king of games on Oct 8, 2010 12:10 PM EDT up reply actions
I agree...
Hitting is kind of difficult. I would be more concerned if we were dominated by one of their other pitchers.
"You can't print what I said, but they have to catch us." - Chipper Jones
I just figured a GB to the right side would have been simple for JHey since he does it twice a game regularly.
"I am here to be real and state the things you are all to scared to say because you don’t want to get your feelings hurt or you don’t want to hurt these bloggers feelings. I mean did you read this garbage preview? I mean seriously, it was a pile of crap." - Mastermike
+1
"I wasn’t thinking about it. That’s the worst celebration of all time. I didn’t know what to do. I got lost in the moment." - Brian McCann
by HansonManCrush on Oct 8, 2010 12:14 PM EDT up reply actions
How about we try putting this in center?
Take a chance on the Cuban defector…
What is both surprising and delightful is that spectators are allowed, and even expected, to join in the vocal part of the game.... There is no reason why the field should not try to put the batsman off his stroke at the critical moment by neatly timed disparagements of his wife's fidelity and his mother's respectability. ~George Bernard Shaw
This just in:
He already signed with the Yankees.
by king of games on Oct 8, 2010 1:34 PM EDT up reply actions
What?! But I'm his agent!
Damn you, Scott Boras! Damn you to hell!
What is both surprising and delightful is that spectators are allowed, and even expected, to join in the vocal part of the game.... There is no reason why the field should not try to put the batsman off his stroke at the critical moment by neatly timed disparagements of his wife's fidelity and his mother's respectability. ~George Bernard Shaw
Mets signed him, but he broke his thumb signing the contract and won’t be back until June.
by king of games on Oct 8, 2010 1:53 PM EDT up reply actions
Did Melky Cabrera make the playoff roster?
Bring in Bard.
"That place was for diehard sports fans. I only follow my team when they're in the playoffs" - Homer Simpson
Join the Lacrosse community The Lacrosse Blog
by bestbostonsports on Oct 8, 2010 11:59 AM EDT reply actions
Greg Norton
e-mailed him his incriminating photos of Bobby
"I wasn’t thinking about it. That’s the worst celebration of all time. I didn’t know what to do. I got lost in the moment." - Brian McCann
by HansonManCrush on Oct 8, 2010 1:53 PM EDT up reply actions
Essentially
This was essentially a no-hitter. Except the Braves had two hits. Which to me, makes it a 2 hit shutout. Of course, the Braves threw a shutout since the one run was on a blown call, which of course cost the Braves the game, essentially, of course. So to me, they are still playing at a 0-0 tie in the 34th inning, virtually of course.
I think...
He was employing a literary device. One that there is no font for.
What is both surprising and delightful is that spectators are allowed, and even expected, to join in the vocal part of the game.... There is no reason why the field should not try to put the batsman off his stroke at the critical moment by neatly timed disparagements of his wife's fidelity and his mother's respectability. ~George Bernard Shaw
I don't understand...
Why we’re so upset that we were dominated by one of baseball’s best pitchers.
Lincecum is a good pitcher. Period. If all it took to beat a pitcher was to prepare for him, then all pitchers would have 10+ ERAs. Thus, at some point, one must simply doff one’s cap and say, “Bravo!” That’s why Lincecum has been to 3 straight All Star games and has won 2 straight Cy Young Awards. He’s really, really good sometimes. Maybe last night had less to do with our hitters and more to do with Timmy.
Now let’s beat the crap out of Cain.
"You can't print what I said, but they have to catch us." - Chipper Jones
Exactly
Against that type of pitching you just have to guess and hope you get lucky. We guessed wrong a lot and the luck didn’t fall our way.
by king of games on Oct 8, 2010 12:14 PM EDT up reply actions
As I said on other threads...
If we take care of business against San Fran’s other pitchers, then Lincecum cannot beat us. We have our season’s #1 and #2 SPs going 3 of the next 4 games. On the flip side, the Giants must pitch their #2 and #3 pitchers 3 of the next 4. We’re still very much in this thing…
Hanson, Huddy, Lowe (short rest), Hanson (short rest) > Cain, Sanchez, Lincecum (short rest), Cain (short rest)
"You can't print what I said, but they have to catch us." - Chipper Jones
Not only that, but we can expect Lowe to pitch well enough to steal a game from Lincecum. It almost happened last night.
Sinkerball pitchers...
Also tend to fare considerably better on short rest than most pitchers. If Lincecum throws Game 4 (if necessary) on three days of rest, he might be a little more human.
I haven’t looked at Lincecum’s history to confirm or deny this, just using conventional wisdom.
-C
It’s rough to sit through these games and not have someone that can’t hit a Ball?
If the Giants are up 2-1 by game four
the Braves will likely see Bumgarner…ERA 3.00, 1.306 WHIP, ERA+ 134,
1.13 ERA and 1.094 WHIP in the months of Sept/Oct..
They will keep Timmy for game 5 at home
Particularly when he threw
125 pitches last night.
"Jason Heyward was a Greek philosopher reincarnated as a baseball player." - Don Sutton
I was thinking this as well
When they went to him in the ninth, I was thinking about how it might play out as far as the rest of the series is concerned.
I like a (current) Lowe v. Bumgarner match-up, even with the short rest. If we can pull off two wins, I like Lowe against Lincecum in Atlanta about the same, with both on short rest.
We’ll see how Hanson does tonite, but I’ve no issues with him on four days v. Lincecum on five, although it will be in SF and we saw how lethal Lincecum can be. But, if he’s going to be that good, the Braves have to find a way to deal with it regardless of who we have throwing.
As far as BP is concerned, Jonny’s the only guy that saw considerable action, and that’s a little misleading because he picked up 2/3 of an inning on a single pitch. I consider both pens fresh as a daisy right now.
-C
It’s rough to sit through these games and not have someone that can’t hit a Ball?
Yep. The only pitcher who you could even argue is better right now is Halladay. But, I think Lincecum is better. As for Matt Cain, he’s above average … maybe. His xFIP this year is 4.19 and his career xFIP, which is 4.43, is nearly a full run higher than his ERA. Essentially, he’s been a very lucky pitcher who pitches in a pitcher’s park. Hanson is better. And Hudson is better than Sanchez. The Braves will have the pitching advantage in 3 of the next 4 games. Conveniently, the Braves need to win 3 of the next 4 games to win the series.
Gotta have Hanson on his game tonight. Might well see another 1-0 affair.
Our bullpen looked dynamite. I know the Giants have a good pen, but Kimbrel and Venters were nasty.
They really were
For the most part they have been down the stretch. That double play ball Venters got was clutch.
Don't know anything about Hanson
Cain is way above average…
Hudson is probably better than Sanchez…but it depends on which Sanchez shows up…if his control is good (like it is all season)…he is almost as good as Lincecum…threw a no-hitter (that really should have been a perfect game) last year
Don't disagree...
just saying Cain is not above averge: ERA+ 130…
Hanson’s stats looked better last year…is he a better pitcher this year but bad luck?
A couple bad starts
combined with bouts of low run support.
"Jason Heyward was a Greek philosopher reincarnated as a baseball player." - Don Sutton
Oh...Cain is the king of low run support
Giants have scored 2 or less runs in 13 of his 33 outing this year…
Yeah, his advanced stats would indicate he hasn’t entirely earned that 3.30 ERA. his FIP is 3.31, but his xFIP is 4.04, so he’s gotten lucky on flyballs. That said, a couple bad starts really drove up those numbers. I don’t penalize a guy as much for a couple bad starts as I do a bunch of mediocre starts. That’s one thing the overall stats don’t tell you.
I know
just giving you the information.
by Andy Braves Fan on Oct 8, 2010 2:35 PM EDT up reply actions
Cain is way lucky. His BABIP is .260. That is not sustainable. He has also given up fewer homers than his flyball rate suggests he should. That’s partly luck and partly the ballpark he pitches in.
I’m not saying the Braves are going to score 10 runs against him, or even 1 run, but he’s no where near as good as Lincecum overall. And Hanson is better.
His BABIP isn’t ridiculously low, though. So while, yes, he will probably regress a little, it isn’t going to be a significant regression.
"Jason Heyward was a Greek philosopher reincarnated as a baseball player." - Don Sutton
I should add
that his BABIP surprises me a little, because the Giants aren’t exactly a defensive stalwart.
"Jason Heyward was a Greek philosopher reincarnated as a baseball player." - Don Sutton
You had me until the last sentence. Let’s have Hanson put up a couple more excellent years before we declare him better than Matt Cain.
If Albert played in the AFL, they’d have to rename it the AZ/NM Fall League, based on where his homers landed.
Barring injury, I think we can assume that’s exactly what will happen.
"Jason Heyward was a Greek philosopher reincarnated as a baseball player." - Don Sutton
Hanson does seem to have a higher ceiling, that of a true ace as opposed to Cain who is more of a 1b starter (which is still excellent, that doesn’t take away from Cain at all).
by Andy Braves Fan on Oct 8, 2010 2:38 PM EDT up reply actions
As much as last nite sucked
Today is a new game, this team has a new shot, and the future is so bright
"I wasn’t thinking about it. That’s the worst celebration of all time. I didn’t know what to do. I got lost in the moment." - Brian McCann
Heyward's last at bat
I’m surprised no one is talking about the horrible call that evened the count against Heyward at 2-2 in the 9th inning. That pitch that was called a strike was at least 6 inches off the plate and was followed by a ball (should have been ball 4) and then a swinging strike at a ball in the dirt for out #2. This terrible call was almost as significant and even more unjustifiable by the umps. What say you?
I was only 12 when Kent Hrbek stole the World Series.
Plenty of calls went both ways. Lowe’s 1st strike to an LHB in the mid innings (Huff? Torres?) was about 1 foot outside.
If Albert played in the AFL, they’d have to rename it the AZ/NM Fall League, based on where his homers landed.
Huff
definitely. And then he got upset about that slider that came at him and was a beautiful strike inside.
These Braves are fighters. Last night we got carved up by one of the best young pitchers in the game pitching lights out.
Look, we aren’t a great offensive club, but we are certainly good enough to make contact with a baseball. You have to tip your hat to greatness when you see it. Lincecum was on fire last night.
World is on Hanson’s shoulders tonight. This is the most pivitoal game in the entire series. We’ve seen their ace. Our ace is waiting in game three. You give the ball to Hudson with the series tied 1-1, its a whole new world. Down 0-2, not even chophouse magic can save us.
"World is on Hanson’s shoulders tonight."
I keep thinking about this. Then I think about all the talk from the pundits about nerves and how they would affect Lincecum last night. Well, we found out. I imagine we might here the same talk from the same pundits tonight, only now they’ll be talking about Hanson and his first playoff game.
Here’s hoping that Tommy answers the same way Lincecum did.
What is both surprising and delightful is that spectators are allowed, and even expected, to join in the vocal part of the game.... There is no reason why the field should not try to put the batsman off his stroke at the critical moment by neatly timed disparagements of his wife's fidelity and his mother's respectability. ~George Bernard Shaw
Twenty-seven K no-no?
What is both surprising and delightful is that spectators are allowed, and even expected, to join in the vocal part of the game.... There is no reason why the field should not try to put the batsman off his stroke at the critical moment by neatly timed disparagements of his wife's fidelity and his mother's respectability. ~George Bernard Shaw
The one asset
is that he has swing and miss stuff more than anyone in the rotation.
He could go for double digit Ks tonight.
"Jason Heyward was a Greek philosopher reincarnated as a baseball player." - Don Sutton
San Fran’s lineup seems to engage in futility almost as often as ours does. I wouldn’t bet against that.
What is both surprising and delightful is that spectators are allowed, and even expected, to join in the vocal part of the game.... There is no reason why the field should not try to put the batsman off his stroke at the critical moment by neatly timed disparagements of his wife's fidelity and his mother's respectability. ~George Bernard Shaw
We still have at least 2 games left.
and with Tommy and Huddy on the mound, we always have a good chance to win. All we need is a win tonight and we head home with a chance to clinch.
'Terrible preview...pretty weak, didn't learn anything new. pretty sad." - mastermike
by Scott Coleman on Oct 8, 2010 12:42 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
We expect our team to beat Giants/Timmy ...
…and I can hardly keep up with which thread covering game 1 to comment on. ;-)
My avatar says it for me...
"Curve: The loveliest distance between two points." ~ Mae West
I'm spreading the love myself.
"Jason Heyward was a Greek philosopher reincarnated as a baseball player." - Don Sutton
That was embarrassing.
"(Kelly's) got a veteran team that is the favorite to win the Pac-10. His choice of Thomas reflects only one belief: He’s our best QB today."-Ted Miller
by TennesseeQuackAttack8 on Oct 8, 2010 12:46 PM EDT reply actions
Much less so than getting one hit by that no-name Philly guy last weekend.
"Jason Heyward was a Greek philosopher reincarnated as a baseball player." - Don Sutton
It was still embarrassing.
"(Kelly's) got a veteran team that is the favorite to win the Pac-10. His choice of Thomas reflects only one belief: He’s our best QB today."-Ted Miller
by TennesseeQuackAttack8 on Oct 8, 2010 12:49 PM EDT up reply actions
Yes, embarassing to get shutout by a back-to-back Cy Young winner at the top of his game pitching at home with a jacked up crowd. We suck and shouldn’t be alowd to take the field tonight.
by king of games on Oct 8, 2010 1:02 PM EDT up reply actions
Nope, wasn't embarrassing at all that our hittters didn't adjust and swung at that 2 strike curveball in the dirt all night.
"(Kelly's) got a veteran team that is the favorite to win the Pac-10. His choice of Thomas reflects only one belief: He’s our best QB today."-Ted Miller
by TennesseeQuackAttack8 on Oct 8, 2010 1:03 PM EDT up reply actions
That’s how you win back to back Cy Youngs. Now go root for the Phills.
by king of games on Oct 8, 2010 1:05 PM EDT up reply actions
Phills?
He sounds more like a Yankees fan to me.
What is both surprising and delightful is that spectators are allowed, and even expected, to join in the vocal part of the game.... There is no reason why the field should not try to put the batsman off his stroke at the critical moment by neatly timed disparagements of his wife's fidelity and his mother's respectability. ~George Bernard Shaw
Yeah, but Felix Hernandez through a complete game shutout against them June 30th, so they are embarassing too.
by king of games on Oct 8, 2010 1:30 PM EDT up reply actions
And it wasn't embarrassing for the entire National League to be dominated by either Maddux, Glavine or Smoltz for 7 of 8 years from 1991-1998.
-C
It’s rough to sit through these games and not have someone that can’t hit a Ball?
I recall a CG SO by Maddux
in San Fran in 1994. 81 pitches. 1 hit. AT Candlestick.
That’s even more impressive than what Lincecum did last night.
"Jason Heyward was a Greek philosopher reincarnated as a baseball player." - Don Sutton
You are embarrasing yourself...
by so overtly demonstrating your lack of baseball knowledge.
"It breaks your heart. It is designed to break your heart. The game begins in the spring, when everything else begins again, and it blossoms in the summer, filling the afternoons and evenings, and then as soon as the chill rains come, it stops and leaves you to face the fall alone." A. Bartlett Giamatti
Darn.
That is all
"Tony Gwynn made sacrifices. Cal Ripken made sacrifices. I'm not sure Derek Jeter made sacrifices given the ungodly deep pockets the Yankees have." - Chipper Jones
How about the terrible decision to walk Kung Fu Panda? Why is facing Cody Ross so much better than facing Sandoval who is having a terrible year and had a terrible game. That was a call that Bobby made that isn’t defensible in my opinion.
Yeah.
I scratched my head at that call, too. But they don’t pay me millions to manage their team, so…
What is both surprising and delightful is that spectators are allowed, and even expected, to join in the vocal part of the game.... There is no reason why the field should not try to put the batsman off his stroke at the critical moment by neatly timed disparagements of his wife's fidelity and his mother's respectability. ~George Bernard Shaw
Eh...
By putting Sandoval on, you have a force out at any base. Sandoval is a switch hitter that excels against RHP. Ross is a righty that is slightly below average OBP against RHP with minimal power.
I’ve no real issue with fans questioning moves that seem a bit curious, but this was a move that is incredibly basic baseball strategy, folks…
-C
It’s rough to sit through these games and not have someone that can’t hit a Ball?
He also has had a poor season and looked terrible previously last night.
I don’t see a need to play percentages when you have a great chance at getting him out.
"Jason Heyward was a Greek philosopher reincarnated as a baseball player." - Don Sutton
.282/.336/.443
against righties. That’s still above average.
The move actually worked, other than Infante played it poorly.
-C
It’s rough to sit through these games and not have someone that can’t hit a Ball?
Yes.
basic baseball strategy that has no basis in facts, just in “that’s the way you do it” kind of thinking. There is no evidence that intentionally walking someone in that scenario is beneficial, just old school. I’m saying why give the Giants free passes, especially to hitters having a terrible night/season to face a guy that isn’t terrible.
And here I thought...
That a ball put in play has a much better shot statistically of being an out when the defense has three options for a force out instead of one.
-C
It’s rough to sit through these games and not have someone that can’t hit a Ball?
But how many scenarios exist where you can only get the out if you are able to make a force play at
second or third base? Most of the outs that are generated are either fly ball outs (doesn’t matter who’s on what bases) or are grounders that mean you get the guy at first. Just because it seems like it’s easier to get an out doesn’t actually make it so. Besides which it statistically impossible to get an out when you WALK A GUY!
Off the top of my head...
Any ball hit down the third baseline, and any ball hit sharply up the middle. Any ball the third baseman must dive to field. Any hit that pulls the first baseman off the bag to field. Any ball that forces the second baseman to move to his right.
All these situations make a play at first potentially more difficult than a play at any base. It’s not about whether one scenario is more or less likely to happen. It’s about giving your team additional options to work with to get the one out, while putting a batter at the plate that is far less likely to produce an unfavorable option.
In this case, it totally worked. Infante had a fairly routine play and botched it. If Infante makes the play as he should have, the blown call is an utter non-factor.
For some reason, you seem intent on blaming a well-managed call and a blown fielding opportunity on the manager. It just doesn’t make any sense.
-C
It’s rough to sit through these games and not have someone that can’t hit a Ball?
by cthabeerman on Oct 8, 2010 3:58 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Mhm.
If only we had one of those on the roster.
Eh. I shouldn’t be so hard on Infante. He is as has been previously described: A perfectly serviceable, but unspectacular on-field replacement. I should be glad that the Braves have someone like him to fall back on, at all.
What is both surprising and delightful is that spectators are allowed, and even expected, to join in the vocal part of the game.... There is no reason why the field should not try to put the batsman off his stroke at the critical moment by neatly timed disparagements of his wife's fidelity and his mother's respectability. ~George Bernard Shaw
I know that there is no font for sarcasm.
But do they have a font for derision?
What is both surprising and delightful is that spectators are allowed, and even expected, to join in the vocal part of the game.... There is no reason why the field should not try to put the batsman off his stroke at the critical moment by neatly timed disparagements of his wife's fidelity and his mother's respectability. ~George Bernard Shaw
I can't say I liked it myself
but it wasn’t the worst decision ever made. It happened to fail this time, though.
by Andy Braves Fan on Oct 8, 2010 2:41 PM EDT up reply actions
In my mind, Lee's 7th inning at bat was key
He strikes out with a full count on ball 4 up way up and inside. The ball was up at his chin, yet he still swung.
The next at bat McCann doubles to center. Now, if Lee would have taken the walk he would have probably made it to third base, possibly even scored….but I doubt it.
We would have had a runner on 2nd and 3rd with no outs, a perfect situation to get at least one run in with a sac fly…..at least.
Now, there is no saying that if Lee got on base McCann would have doubled, but you never know.
It seems to mee that our batters would rather swing than take a walk last night.
again
its difficult to say, the hitters clearly had a hard time picking up on Lincecum’s pitches.
by Andy Braves Fan on Oct 8, 2010 2:43 PM EDT up reply actions
we had our chance in the 1st inning.
Leadoff Double, then Heyward FO, Bmac and Lee K swinging ball in dirt to strikeout. If they didnt swing that would be bases loaded w/1out
From Fangraphs:
Giants fans will justifiably remember Lincecum’s awesome performance for a long time. But given San Francisco’s own offensive impotence against the Braves third-best starter, it shouldn’t make them feel overly confident heading into Games Two and Three.
Twitter: @Ben_Duronio
Huh?
Somebody not discounting the Braves?
by king of games on Oct 8, 2010 1:54 PM EDT up reply actions
Why don’t we just put Glaus in at third bease and move Infante back to second so that we can have 2 great pinch hitters available. The defense is bad already. Will glaus really make it that much worse. Conrad is not comfortable at second base and Infante is not comfortable at third base. Atleast Glaus has played third most of his career. Infante has played second more this year then anywhere else. So what if Glaus doesn’t move as well as he used to. Infante didnt get the grounder that mattered last night either. Not to mention the obvious power upgrade that would give the Braves. I’m 100% certain Glaus would be a better five hole hitter then Gonzales.
YES GLAUS WILL BE MUCH WORSE AT THIRD
Enough with this shit. It’s not going to freaking happen.
"Jason Heyward was a Greek philosopher reincarnated as a baseball player." - Don Sutton
You say that because you have personally seen him taking ground balls. Come on. Whats worse… Having a power threat in the middle of the lineup who may not be the best defender or having another light hitter in the fifth hole while havig slightly improved defense.
Throw Glaus in that lineup and we would look so much better. Keep Conrad as a pinch-hitter or backup where he’s been so good.
by WeStillHaveBobby on Oct 8, 2010 2:20 PM EDT up reply actions
I have not. The Braves, have, however.
Do you see him playing the position?
"Jason Heyward was a Greek philosopher reincarnated as a baseball player." - Don Sutton
True. I dont see him there. I do however, see what the players playing the position of 3rd and 2nd are currently doing.
Troy Glaus cannot run. Troy Glaus cannot throw.
Omar Infante or Brooks Conrad are a better option there. As would Eric Hinske be.
"Jason Heyward was a Greek philosopher reincarnated as a baseball player." - Don Sutton
I know that Glaus is not the swiftest of foot. The Braves need his bat in the lineup. We have seen what the current defense is doing. In moving Glaus to third the defense improves at second and regresses slightly at third. So what. I’m done on this. The decision isn’t up to me but it sure would be nice to have that threat in the lineup.
So all you do is lay down bunt after bunt down to Glaus. Do you think he’s going to be able to consistently run in and field all those bunts???
by dunnytwogloves on Oct 8, 2010 2:59 PM EDT up reply actions
They tried him at third during his rehab assignment in Gwinnett.
Look, I get what you’re saying. The thought of Glaus (or more specifically, May-June’s Glaus) once again raking from the five-hole gets me all kinds of sprung, too. But when you consider his offensive struggles after the ASB, and then consider that he really, really struggled playing third during his AAA assignment, it’s obvious even to me that Glaus is not the answer.
Personally, I almost rather have Glaus playing first and trying DLee at third.
What is both surprising and delightful is that spectators are allowed, and even expected, to join in the vocal part of the game.... There is no reason why the field should not try to put the batsman off his stroke at the critical moment by neatly timed disparagements of his wife's fidelity and his mother's respectability. ~George Bernard Shaw
I saw that too. I did also see that he was hitting a few bombs as well. It’s a decision that can make you look like a fool or a hero. I just dont like the offense we displayed yesterday.
Then no one should be too surprised when we see him pinch hit for Hanson tomorrow. But at this point the Venus de Milo has a better chance of getting to a ball at the hot corner and making a play.
What is both surprising and delightful is that spectators are allowed, and even expected, to join in the vocal part of the game.... There is no reason why the field should not try to put the batsman off his stroke at the critical moment by neatly timed disparagements of his wife's fidelity and his mother's respectability. ~George Bernard Shaw
If he's struggled so much
then why even put him on the roster over Freeman?
by WeStillHaveBobby on Oct 8, 2010 2:42 PM EDT up reply actions
Freeman has 24 MLB PA
Glaus has approximately 6,400, some of which came in the postseason.
In a pinch-hit situation (because that’s the only action those two are likely to see), which would you prefer??
-C
It’s rough to sit through these games and not have someone that can’t hit a Ball?
Veteran presence over a rookie?
His bat is still redeemable in the lineup?
Your mom?
Pick one. But I can tell you this: He wasn’t kept on the roster to play third.
What is both surprising and delightful is that spectators are allowed, and even expected, to join in the vocal part of the game.... There is no reason why the field should not try to put the batsman off his stroke at the critical moment by neatly timed disparagements of his wife's fidelity and his mother's respectability. ~George Bernard Shaw
We haven’t given him a chance. It wouldn’t be more than a game or 2 if we had him starting there anyway. He has experience at both 3rd base and the postseason – we need him in that lineup.
Forget about what he did during the season – Anything can happen in the postseason. He could be what this team really needs right now.
by WeStillHaveBobby on Oct 8, 2010 2:29 PM EDT up reply actions
my thoughts exactly.
It’s not like we are going to have him there for more than a few games anyway. Glaus had plenty of rest already and I’m sure he could help the team with some at-bats.
Put McLouth in there too. Have him start at LF. Both these guys I think could make something click for us.
by WeStillHaveBobby on Oct 8, 2010 2:18 PM EDT up reply actions
they were both there since the beginning – since our bad slump in the first of the year they helped us get to where we are now. Let them finish the job!!!
by WeStillHaveBobby on Oct 8, 2010 2:24 PM EDT up reply actions
why do people keep suggesting this? It’s not happening.
"Tony Gwynn made sacrifices. Cal Ripken made sacrifices. I'm not sure Derek Jeter made sacrifices given the ungodly deep pockets the Yankees have." - Chipper Jones
by MBL1 on Oct 8, 2010 2:32 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
It is not like the Giants were tearing up our pitching. In fact, I believe they won the game because a blown call and a ball Infante should have gotten.
I thought...
They won it because the Braves scored 0 runs.
-C
It’s rough to sit through these games and not have someone that can’t hit a Ball?
true
but a loss is a loss and we need a comeback. Hopefully today we can win and take 2 at home.
by WeStillHaveBobby on Oct 8, 2010 2:43 PM EDT up reply actions
Greetings
Long-time lurker, first-time poster. I’m a TBS product, born and raised in California. I’ve been to a bunch of Braves games at AT&T/Candlestick and PETCO over the years, but have never taken as bad an earful as I did last night. An hour trek on the train amongst Giants fans plus sitting alone with nary a tomahawk in sight made for a rough night—but I think people fell in love with Lincecum’s Ks and forgot how close the game actually was.
I feel like I finally earned my fan stripes last night, so wanted to get my first post out of the way. Looking forward to tonight.
by kd8698 on Oct 8, 2010 5:29 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Good post...
As long as you don’t suggest Troy Glaus play 3B, you’ll be alright.
-C
It’s rough to sit through these games and not have someone that can’t hit a Ball?
Please don’t tempt fate. I beg you.
"Jason Heyward was a Greek philosopher reincarnated as a baseball player." - Don Sutton
No worries...
http://www.talkingchop.com/2010/10/8/1739515/its-official-no-glaus-at-3b
-C
It’s rough to sit through these games and not have someone that can’t hit a Ball?
I feel bad
In a similar situation from CT, went to see the Braves play at Citi field, home of the Mets. Braves won, though. And there were plenty of fellow Braves fans around.
by Andy Braves Fan on Oct 8, 2010 5:44 PM EDT up reply actions
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